Probably, but I like cheap spells. Also, most people leave up enough mana for their removal, and use the rest (excepting utility lands, and flash stuff).
I agree. Paying an extra U is worth it for the versatility that Cryptic Command offers.
A lot of people dislike the Dream Fracture, I like it simply because its a cheap hard counter, that also cantrips for you. Kind of like Arcane Denial's little brother. Cryptic Command would be their big brother. Does everything, but makes you pay for it. I've been liking cheap spells in the deck, especially with my lineup of cost-reducers now. I've been trying to cut a few cards that require more than one or two color intensity, though this doesn't immediately make it the right decision. I think Cryptic would work solidly if you can swing it in.
That is a very good point; thankfully Vision Skeins was a placeholder because I couldn't find my Quicken.
I did like how Vision Skeins played though... I'll have to remember the words if I do decide to accept symmetric draw as a drawback to cheaper draw spells.
I can get behind most of those substitutions except losing shadow rift....I'm always pumped to draw that card.
I think this might be one of the sexiest things I've ever heard about this deck =P
Seriously, how often do you hear this?
There really are a lot of options that can fit into the deck though, so it's always hard getting everything you want in. Stroke pf Genius as a second BSZ is interesting. I take it that has been playing well for you?
There really are a lot of options that can fit into the deck though, so it's always hard getting everything you want in. Stroke pf Genius as a second BSZ is interesting. I take it that has been playing well for you?
More often than not...this is used as another Draw 7...except at instant speed.
The more I play this deck the more I want to add as many draw 7s as possible. That is where the power of the deck is. It is so easy to win off the back of Diviner's Wand and Draw 7s. I have been eyeballing these as well.
Either way...my point is that the cantriping cards simply for the sake of cantriping just aren't cutting it. Here are the win conditions as I see them.
1. Voltron Creature. This can either be Tibor and Lumia or even a manland.
3. Cerebral Vortex - While this needs to have good timing to actually kill someone...there is almost always a few times per game that this can have a major impact. Plus you get bonus points if you cast Reiterate.
4. Decking - With the Draw X spells that this deck has...it isn't unreasonable to "Stroke" a deck. This will obviously take some extra time and planning...but it is very much an option.
I don't believe that I missed anything.
The reason why I am advocating so many heavy hitting draw spells is because the games I lose come from "whiffing" on cantrips.
Any thoughts?
Edit: I think that Inkmoth Nexus may be worth an inclusion. While this goes against the damage theme that the deck uses...it does give another win condition without any real drawback.
Yep, that's the way Diviner's Wand works. The number of times I hit a wheel, into Past In Flames to wheel again for the kill...
The cantrips fit in well for my build, because Leering Emblem alone powers insanely quickly with cheap spells. It's why I had issues with BSZ, the three blue just to start would really drain a lot of resources.
I'm reconsidering it though, as with the cost reducers I now run, I can afford to step it up a bit.
I really wish I had a Timespiral. I'm starting to include the 'free' spells, because as soon as you add the reducers, they actually help provide mana to keep the chain going.
It seems like you are ignoring the power of BSZ. That shouldn't be a "mid-combo" filler...it should be at instant speed to set up a killer turn. Or it could be used as a +X/+X finisher with Diviner's Wand.
I am interested to see your new list.
What do you think about including Inkmoth Nexus as an additional "free" win condition. I look at the poison that it adds as another form of general damage. The fact that it is a land and costs the deck nothing makes me believe that it deserves a spot. At it's worst it is a colorless land that provides a pinch blocker. At it's best it will knock out a player in one hit. Remember that with Diviner's Wand and a draw 7...you are giving 8 Poison counters. That extra 2 "damage" can't be too hard to come up with. I mean...what else could you ask from a land?
I ran Blinkmoth for a while, and managed to get some kills off of that. So... to get a kill off of Inkmoth takes a lot less effort. I ended up cutting blinkmoth due to colorless mana issues, as well rarely ever using it for the kill.
While Inkmoth will have similar disadvantages, the ease to set up a kill far outweighs that. I just don't happen to have one yet; now that they will be easy to get thanks to the precon, I might have to invest in a few.
Believe me, I know full well the power of BSZ, it just seemed extra when it really didn't help me go off in a turn, I was doing that already. I'm taking a second look at all of my cantrips now after my experiences with Vision Skeins, to see if I can upgrade them to give a little bit more oomph.
I'll be fiddling with the deck tonight, so I'll post my current experiment with the cost reducers, as well as the changes I make.
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This is what I was running last week, still tweaking this list a bit.
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? - may be cut
* - is awesome
CAPS - placeholder for/will be exchanged for
For the last three lands on my list, my meta has a lot of excess Maze of Ith and Kor Haven showing up, with enough Vesuva's to make things unpleasant. In one game (different deck) I had 2 mazes out, someone else had a Kor Haven, and then Vesuva'd my maze, and a third person eventually dropped their maze. Was exciting... Then I got a Life from the loam to go with my ghost quarter.
-Turn Aside
+Vex
Vex is not the best counterspell of all time, but I like how it can be an unconditional hard counter for U with my cost reducers out.
-Recoup
+Mystic Retrieval
Despite the higher initial cost, the abillity to reuse any given spell more than once, and the ability to hit instants has improved my opinion of this card
-Vision Skeins
+Quicken
Was always just a placeholder for it. I can't wait to quicken a Past in Flames. Especially if I have a Volute out. Things could get disgusting.
-Wheel of Fate
+Chaos Warp
Not sure on losing the wheel... The inability to flashback is what finally did it for me, and that I have to wait for it. It can set up some sick turns, but really telegraphs your moves to your opponents. It's also less than exciting to draw late game. That, and I needed some more removal...
-Electrolyze
+Overblaze
Electrolyze is in a card what this deck is overall. That said, 2 damage and 1 card just doesn't... oomph. Overblaze on the other hand, is like a Psychotic Fury, that stacks with itself, and can fry the ground even faster. Dear god, this is going to be awesome in here.
-Brainstorm
+Frantic Search
I have long enjoyed using Brainstorm with the wheels to save some important pieces, or for targetted discard. That said, while being an iconic card, it just doesn't wow enough in here. Frantic Search will help dig as well, plus it will help with mana issues with the cost reducers.
-Solemn Simulacrum
+Plagiarize
Solemn gives us much needed ramp, and is a nice chump blocker. I don't like him taking up 4 mana though. Also, since the deck draws plenty as is, no one has qualms in running him over to get to me. Plagiarize on the other hand can really mess someone up, especially with a wheel of fortune stacked with it. I'm tempted to add in a Wheel and Deal, but there aren't enough effects in this deck to capitalize on it, so I won't.
-Grab the Reins
+Echoing Truth
Grab was really mana intensive... Echoing Truth is also far less conditional (hits enchantments) and is preemptively good against tokens.
I am strongly tempted to replace Charisma with Crucible of worlds and put in the fetches. In general, it will work well with retrace, as well as protect some of my lands, and give me more reach with removing mazes of ith with my striplands.
Some of my recent paranoia towards removal, is that my brother has threatened running Mana Maze in some of his decks. This would be... interesting.
I've always jokingly said that this deck really wants niv-mizzet at the helm with all the draw it does; both of those cards are solid inclusions, especially when you give the Crawler flying with T&L.
The warrior I'm a bit more iffy on, since you can always accidentally kill him, but the deck does run a far higher proportion of blue spells compared to red currently, so it should be fine. He's a great way to filter through your hand twice. Better filtration than Shattered Perception for the cost, though perception feeds the GY.
I get the premise in the cards...but the sad fact is that these are not Wheel Effects. Many times with this deck I have been dropped into top deck mode and pull a Wheel from the top and proceed to win. These types of cards simply don't do that. I will admit that the flashback is attractive.
As for your list Bob...you should try Reins of Power over Grab the Reins. It accomplishes almost the same thing, at instant speed, and gives a Fog effect in a pinch. I also don't understand your choice for Vex.
What it has going for me:
-Hard Counter. Straight up counters a spell. No fancy stuff
-With my cost reducers, it costs a single U. This is big for me.
-Replacing Turn Aside, which was far too restrictive for me.
What it doesn't have going:
-Costs 3.
-Gives the opponent a card. (This could be used politically, but meh).
Overall, my cost reducers have actually played a very strong role in card decisions for me in the last few builds. I really want to see what these cards can enable for me, and the best way to do that is to really stretch them.
As far as counters were going, I found I wanted a 3rd one in, but wanted to stay out of heavy color requirement (Cryptic Command's triple blue annoys me about this). I added Turn Aside since it's cheap, and protects my stuff. In playtesting, I found it to be way too limited.
While digging through my Blue cards for a Frantic Search, I found Vex. Looked playably decent at first glance, so I made the replacement with available resources.
I am certain there are better options. Heck, I even think Circular Logic will probably make me happier, but for now, it's playable at worst.
I actually have considered various Wind effects, but even then, I factor Winds of Change far higher than Shattered Perception. Tolarian Winds did almost make it in, due to instant speed, but it really just isn't strong enough.
Whirlpool Warrior gets a nod at being 2 effects in one at cheap, if needed, and on a creature to hold a sword if necessary. It certainly is playable, and is probably how I'd play Niv-Mizzet if I ever built one.
Wind effects are good at cycling your hand for a new one if you have no fuel, a good example would be land flooded, without a retrace spell. The deck runs a lot of fuel though, so it really shouldn't be necessary.
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On Reins of Power. Good call. I liked Grab simply because it can be a rather permanent answer, and deals well with indestructible creatures (I am occasionally up against a Konda). I dislike how expensive Grab is.
I have already replaced it with echoing truth (see the confirmed current changes at the bottom); I need to update the front list on the OP with a merge of this last list with the newest changes.
Chaos Warp and Echoing should help with indestructibles, as well as with some enchantment issues I have been running into.
Echoing dealing with tokens is pure bonus as far as I'm concerned.
Reins would also add another alternate wincon to the deck, which I approve of. I think its versatility speaks highly for it. I shall have to see if I can cut something to experiment with it.
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I have ordered a Timespiral. On one hand, I think the land untapping will be very strong. On the other, I dislike a bit the random chaos-ness of it. I like having my graveyard there to act as a second set of fuel; this especially hurts if I've already flashed back a lot of my fuel, since then my deck will have a lower proportion of fuel than normal.
What it has going for me:
-Hard Counter. Straight up counters a spell. No fancy stuff
-With my cost reducers, it costs a single U. This is big for me.
-Replacing Turn Aside, which was far too restrictive for me.
What it doesn't have going:
-Costs 3.
-Gives the opponent a card. (This could be used politically, but meh).
Counterspell is just better than this. The addition of mana just isn't worth blindly giving them a card. I would even take Memory Lapse over it if you want to see U as a casting cost. Or Force of Will can fit the bill.
As far as counters were going, I found I wanted a 3rd one in, but wanted to stay out of heavy color requirement (Cryptic Command's triple blue annoys me about this). I added Turn Aside since it's cheap, and protects my stuff. In playtesting, I found it to be way too limited.
I agree. This is a great card. The problem is...targeting my stuff never really bothers me. If I lose something...it isn't the end of the world. However some of my opponent's abilities are back breaking to this deck. For this reason I have decided that Interdict may be the better 3rd counterspell in the deck. Have you been shut out of the game by Maze of Ith? I chose this over Stifle because it replaces itself.
Bob I love this deck. Seriously. Love. This. Deck.
Ignite Memories for 6 after a buybacked Whim of Volrath and some other shenanigans. Mimeoplasm guy who's been dominating all game thanks to an early Buried Alive has 20 life and in hand 3 lands and Butcher of Malakir (5:symb::symb:). 28 damage later I was all like GG BROSKI
I don't have time to put in a lot of input but now my biggest issue is trying to find a balance between cheap cantrippy cards (for storm shenanigans) and flashback/retrace stuff. I am moving away from the cantrips currently but at the same time I am a sucker for a good storm finish. I'm thinking I'll have to decide between Temporal Fissure and Ignite Memories. You've tried both types of decks- what do you prefer? More cantrips with a storm/board-wipe capability? Or flashback/retrace with River Kelpie and Secrets of the dead?
I recently added a couple of my pet cards Bribery and Consecrated Sphinx (go go Wheel effects!!) just to up the power level a bit while I build my confidence with it. It feels dirty though...
EDIT: Bob have you tried Submerge for your indestructible issues? Surely someone is playing with forests...
Ok bob, I've had this deck on my mind since the first time I saw this thread (some time in January.)
This deck is impossible to build. There's so many things I want in and I don't know what to do with it.
Here are Ideas I've got/like:
-Artifact mana (You can drop as many artifacts as you want each turn as long as you can pay= Better than lands for that. Add as much artifact mana as you can.)
-Proliferate Package: Those two draw spells that proliferate with that red burn spell that proliferates. Add Inexorable Tide. You got tons of proliferation. Now you can add the 5 shrines if you want; Red and Blue mana battery(big startup cost in mana but end game extra a lot of mana); Charge counter artifacts; +1/+1 counters; Infect(Grafted Exoskeleton); -1/-1 (Infect, Wither); so on...
-LOTSA Draw: Have a lot of draw spells that might draw more than half of your deck alone. This is expensive manawise but can be dealt with cost reducers.
-Cheap Burn: Combines well with the draw. With Pike and Leering Emblem you can make a deck that controls while gaining card advantage and killing your opponent at the same time. Wow.
-Cantrip Subtheme: LOL, nuff said.
-Flashback: I like. you've seen that don't need to explain.
-Buyback: I don't like this as much.
-Storm: Not for me, except maybe Haze of Rage.
-Tap Out: I like, works well with the emblem, the charmbreaker devils, Wee Dragonauts and Kiln Fiend without being too strong and making the game unfun for my weaker playgroup. Awesome.
Counterspell is just better than this. The addition of mana just isn't worth blindly giving them a card. I would even take Memory Lapse over it if you want to see U as a casting cost. Or Force of Will can fit the bill.
I've found that one card in multiplayer isn't really backbreaking. Letting them redraw what I want gone though... can be. Counterspell may be straight up stronger, but I'm really wanting to test out this cost reduction theory. I have a ton of counterspells lying around, thanks to it being reprinted every other set for a while, so it's easy enough to swap one in if I find that I don't get the counter reliably for U. Circular logic remains in my mind now though, but it lends additional weakness to the deck from GY removal.
I agree. This is a great card. The problem is...targeting my stuff never really bothers me. If I lose something...it isn't the end of the world. However some of my opponent's abilities are back breaking to this deck. For this reason I have decided that Interdict may be the better 3rd counterspell in the deck. Have you been shut out of the game by Maze of Ith? I chose this over Stifle because it replaces itself.
Maze has been problematic before, but having 3x the land destruction helps keep them in check, as does the boots. However, I like Interdict. I really wanted to add Trickbind to the deck, because there are so many abilities to stop, and no one ever expects it, it can absolutely shut people down. Interdict looks like the sweet middleground with the self replacement. I'll need to dig through my blue cards and see if I have one =D
Also, this has added benefit of stopping most GY removal, without having to preemptively counter something a person may use on someone else. The only one trickbind would stop that this wouldn't (off the top of my head) is Bojuka Bog. I think I'm fine with that.
I'm thinking I'll have to decide between Temporal Fissure and Ignite Memories. You've tried both types of decks- what do you prefer? More cantrips with a storm/board-wipe capability? Or flashback/retrace with River Kelpie and Secrets of the dead?
The deck started out as pure cantrip, carrying over the flame jab+kelpie combo from the previous more control-type deck. Since then, I've added Oona's Grace, Secrets of the dead, and a ton of extra flashback, (I love how they printed Past in Flames, it feels like they did it just for me). So I'm really liking the re-usability right now. I don't feel that I'm actively suffering on the storm side. Especially on the helpful side has been the Urza 'free' spells recently, and turnabout which have kicked the deck into the next tier, it feels like. While I have still managed to refrain from adding the absolutely disgusting stuff to date, my removal of Trade Secrets shows that I'm still trying to hold back the deck a tiny bit.
While I only have 1 storm card in the deck currently, as most kinda suck, or are exceptionally strong (really, no middle ground?), the various equipment and the plume give a lot of triggers that count spells cast, so add a very storm feeling to the deck; Since I've managed to gain 20+ life off of a plume in a single turn, and played it after drawing it off my second wheel that turn... I'd say getting spells done isn't terribly a problem, =P
I recently added a couple of my pet cards Bribery and Consecrated Sphinx (go go Wheel effects!!) just to up the power level a bit while I build my confidence with it. It feels dirty though...
That's because it is dirty... =P I won't criticize though, everyone's meta is different, and sometimes you have to go there. Sphinx is just one of those ridiculous powerhouses though. Some more of the shared winds effects may help you with the sphinx. You can also use the Jars. If you also use a Rings of Brighthearth you can stack the triggers to get a new hand off of the Jar.
EDIT: Bob have you tried Submerge for your indestructible issues? Surely someone is playing with forests...
My goodness, I run this in edric and then completely ignore it for this deck... That said, I have actually had a number of games go green-less recently. Odd.
Here are Ideas I've got/like:
-Artifact mana (You can drop as many artifacts as you want each turn as long as you can pay= Better than lands for that. Add as much artifact mana as you can.)
-Proliferate Package: Those two draw spells that proliferate with that red burn spell that proliferates. Add Inexorable Tide. You got tons of proliferation. Now you can add the 5 shrines if you want; Red and Blue mana battery(big startup cost in mana but end game extra a lot of mana); Charge counter artifacts; +1/+1 counters; Infect(Grafted Exoskeleton); -1/-1 (Infect, Wither); so on...
-LOTSA Draw: Have a lot of draw spells that might draw more than half of your deck alone. This is expensive manawise but can be dealt with cost reducers.
-Cheap Burn: Combines well with the draw. With Pike and Leering Emblem you can make a deck that controls while gaining card advantage and killing your opponent at the same time. Wow.
-Cantrip Subtheme: LOL, nuff said.
-Flashback: I like. you've seen that don't need to explain.
-Buyback: I don't like this as much.
-Storm: Not for me, except maybe Haze of Rage.
-Tap Out: I like, works well with the emblem, the charmbreaker devils, Wee Dragonauts and Kiln Fiend without being too strong and making the game unfun for my weaker playgroup. Awesome.
What are your thoughts?
Artifact mana: This is blue and red's ramp method, don't cut too many lands though, as you still want to consistently make land drops. When you miss a land drop, but have to pay to drop an artifact, you just payed to get extra mana that should have been for free. There remain a large amount of good choices though; two that I'm currently not running, but have looked at are: Star Compass and Coldsteel heart Proliferate: Interesting idea. I haven't actively thought about it here, but it could work well in the deck. I'm concerned though that it's very dependant on Inexorable Tide though, outside of that, there aren't a lot of spells. Big Draw:Cost reducers have been great so far, but they don't solve everything, you still need to get to them, and then get them out, and then not have them break =P. That said, some draw that does more than just replace itself is good. Burn Yep, one of the early versions ran Lightning Bolt, Thunderbolt (T&L specialty!), among others. The removal package was quite nice, sometimes I miss it. Cantrip: Yap! Self replacement means you always keep a nice grip. Flashback: I've been enjoying myself immensely with this one so far. Doubling the value of every spell is nice, and it turns cantrips into pure draw. Buyback: You really have to commit to one or the other, though spell reducers help blur the line a bit. There are some useful buyback spells, and it's another way to make sure you have a high spell-count. The reason I've avoided it a bit, is that it doesn't advance you through your library as much; rather than keeping a full grip through replacement and forward motion, you maintain it by never losing the cards of value that you have. I'm concerned the playstyle would get a bit stale. Although, I also think that a fully reduced Searing Touch to R is just the definition of hilarious. I have problems. Storm: On one side, you have Empty the warrens and Grapeshot, which are a bit lackluster, and boring (though grapeshot could get devastating at times...). On the other, you have Temporal Fissure and Volcanic Awakening, which may have a side effect called friendloss... I am not kidding when I say I've hit way over 20 spells in a turn with some of the recent additions (especially turnabout, that card is disturbingly effective at all times). Either of those last two at that spell velocity, is simply not a nice thing to do. I think Ignite Memories is a happy middleground. It's showy, it's flashy, and it's hilariously effective, especially in EDH where people like big spells. The last time I played the Haze, I was a bit unimpressed, but now that I have reducers and could (theoretically) play it for R repeatedly, it can get disgusting quite quickly. Especially since most people have more removal slots in their decks than stack manipulation spells. My last remaining gripe is that it's sorcery speed. Tap Out: ??
I know what you mean, I've overhauled this deck so many times, and there's still new ways to play it. And I still haven't built my buyback version!
Artifact mana: This is blue and red's ramp method, don't cut too many lands though, as you still want to consistently make land drops. When you miss a land drop, but have to pay to drop an artifact, you just payed to get extra mana that should have been for free. There remain a large amount of good choices though; two that I'm currently not running, but have looked at are: Star Compass and Coldsteel heart Proliferate: Interesting idea. I haven't actively thought about it here, but it could work well in the deck. I'm concerned though that it's very dependant on Inexorable Tide though, outside of that, there aren't a lot of spells. Big Draw:Cost reducers have been great so far, but they don't solve everything, you still need to get to them, and then get them out, and then not have them break =P. That said, some draw that does more than just replace itself is good. Burn Yep, one of the early versions ran Lightning Bolt, Thunderbolt (T&L specialty!), among others. The removal package was quite nice, sometimes I miss it. Cantrip: Yap! Self replacement means you always keep a nice grip. Flashback: I've been enjoying myself immensely with this one so far. Doubling the value of every spell is nice, and it turns cantrips into pure draw. Buyback: You really have to commit to one or the other, though spell reducers help blur the line a bit. There are some useful buyback spells, and it's another way to make sure you have a high spell-count. The reason I've avoided it a bit, is that it doesn't advance you through your library as much; rather than keeping a full grip through replacement and forward motion, you maintain it by never losing the cards of value that you have. I'm concerned the playstyle would get a bit stale. Although, I also think that a fully reduced Searing Touch to R is just the definition of hilarious. I have problems. Storm: On one side, you have Empty the warrens and Grapeshot, which are a bit lackluster, and boring (though grapeshot could get devastating at times...). On the other, you have Temporal Fissure and Volcanic Awakening, which may have a side effect called friendloss... I am not kidding when I say I've hit way over 20 spells in a turn with some of the recent additions (especially turnabout, that card is disturbingly effective at all times). Either of those last two at that spell velocity, is simply not a nice thing to do. I think Ignite Memories is a happy middleground. It's showy, it's flashy, and it's hilariously effective, especially in EDH where people like big spells. The last time I played the Haze, I was a bit unimpressed, but now that I have reducers and could (theoretically) play it for R repeatedly, it can get disgusting quite quickly. Especially since most people have more removal slots in their decks than stack manipulation spells. My last remaining gripe is that it's sorcery speed. Tap Out: ??
Artifact: Usually it's -1 for + artifact mana, no? No, wait that was ramp. Same thing, no? I'd have a way to classify the artis. Going off Terrain Generator, an extra land *Mana* is 2 mana + not using a land you have. Basically, It is 3 mana. Now, so Manalith DOES fit. It also gives any color of mana you want. And it's usable this turn so essentially costs 2. Signets have the same idea but are actually better, but still, lets take Manalith as a reference point.. Anything that gives you x mana should not cost more than 2x, where 2x is the cost - the mana given to you by the artifact that turn. Once I have a list of all the artifacts that conform, I can cut the ones I dislike. I've got the list on my laptop I'll edit it in when I get the chance. Prolif: I've wanted to make a deck with this for a while but not really sure this is the place, however. Maybe a Green Blue. Big Draw: I've got a list of this too, not sure how good though... How many draw spells are good? I don't know how it works with the flashback package that I do want in. I also don't know how to evaluate them. Some like Sift where you draw and discard ca essentially just read as draw X because you'd discard at EOT anyways. You can also afford to put more situational spells in there because you can get rid of them if you want. Burn: Why did you cut it then? Should I just not bother? Their cheapness I like but makes the cost reducers less good. Cantrip: I don't know really which I'd want to see and which are in just cause they cantrip. Do you draw enough to just discard the extra ones? Flashback: I've got a list of the ones I like here too. Past in Flames is above my budget (I think.) What do you think of Burning Vengeance? Buyback: I've been thinking the same thing. You can spend all your mana on buyback if its better than the rest of your deck or spend none as you don't really run out of cards either. Having each game end with you have a 7 card hand with 4 buyback spells sounds lame to me too. Storm: Ignite memory is the one I considered the 2nd most. How much mana do you really make? Tap Out: Playing aggressively, lots of cards and you tap out every turn, don't leave mana open and don't really include counterspells. How often do you still have lands untaped EOT?
I looked at this because I thought it was both a Fireball and Braingeyser. Since it is only one or the other...I passed. It did blip on my radar though. If it was instant speed it would be in the deck. <--This is unfortunately why Braingeyser hasn't made the cut. :-(
As far as cost-reduction goes, I don't think anyone has mentioned Semblance Anvil yet. The "exile a card" condition doesn't seem like it would be that costly for this deck. Not sure though.
As far as cost-reduction goes, I don't think anyone has mentioned Semblance Anvil yet. The "exile a card" condition doesn't seem like it would be that costly for this deck. Not sure though.
Thoughts?
I'm not a fan of reducers that make you pick a card type, let alone ones that are practically a guaranteed 2-for-1 against you because it will most definitely get blowed up. What's more after you're reduced the cost for some of these spells past they might not even help you that much. What good is semblance anvil when you're trying to cast Shattering Spree or Impulse?
The more global ones like Stone Calendar and Helm of Awakening make a lot more sense, I think.
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For the record Past in Flames is totally gamebreaking. What an amazing card. Every game I have won with this deck so far has involved casting it at least once. Check out this sequence- 8 mana on board. Cast Turnabout (also god-tier), tap my lands in response for 4 floating and 8 untapped mana. Cast Past in Flames. Flashback Turnabout. Flashback Increasing Vengeance, copying Turnabout twice. Tap all my lands for mana in response to each of three more Turnabouts for a total of 25/26 mana. Flashback Devil's Play for 22, Kill the Mimeoplasm guy with 22 life. 3 leftover mana for a Repulse ready against the Kaalia player.
Let it burn, baby!
One thing I am working on with this deck is trying to shorten my turn time. With a stocked graveyard and lots of draw and flashback effects I'm starting to take too damn long to come up with the big play. Another thing is that I'm starting to think Psychosis Crawler would be really, really good with all the draw and draw 7 effects. Maybe I'll clean up and take out Bribery or Consecrated Sphinx since I am an evil person for playing them anyway.
Probably, but I like cheap spells. Also, most people leave up enough mana for their removal, and use the rest (excepting utility lands, and flash stuff).
A lot of people dislike the Dream Fracture, I like it simply because its a cheap hard counter, that also cantrips for you. Kind of like Arcane Denial's little brother.
Cryptic Command would be their big brother. Does everything, but makes you pay for it. I've been liking cheap spells in the deck, especially with my lineup of cost-reducers now. I've been trying to cut a few cards that require more than one or two color intensity, though this doesn't immediately make it the right decision. I think Cryptic would work solidly if you can swing it in.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I did like how Vision Skeins played though... I'll have to remember the words if I do decide to accept symmetric draw as a drawback to cheaper draw spells.
Thanks.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
- Walking Atlas
- Quietus Spike
- Concentrate
- Ignorant Bliss
- Dream Fracture
- Shadow Rift
+ Faithless Looting
+ Runechanter's Pike
+ Stroke of Genius
+ Desperate Ravings
+ Cryptic Command
+ Swerve
1 Tibor and Lumia
Lands: 40
1 Academy Ruins
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Command Tower
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Strip Mine
1 Temple of the False Gods
1 Terrain Generator
1 Vesuva
1 Wasteland
13 Island
9 Mountain
Mana Acceleration: 4
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Izzet Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
Card Draw / Tutor: 23
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brainstorm
1 Desperate Ravings
1 Fabricate
1 Faithless Looting
1 Future Sight
1 Gamble
1 Impulse
1 Long-Term Plans
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystic Retrieval
1 Oona's Grace
1 Past in Flames
1 Recoup
1 Rhystic Study
1 Secrets of the Dead
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Spiral
1 Trade Secrets
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 River Kelpie
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Enhancement: 7
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Charisma
1 Diviner's Wand
1 Empyrial Plate
1 Leer Emblem
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Sword of War and Peace
Combat Steps: 2
1 Savage Beating
1 Seize the Day
Utility: 7
1 Cerebral Vortex
1 Distortion Strike
1 Ignite Memories
1 Mind Games
1 Psychotic Fury
1 Reiterate
1 Whim of Volrath
Counterspells: 4
1 Arcane Denial
1 Cryptic Command
1 Remand
1 Swerve
Removal: 8
1 Capsize
1 Chaos Warp
1 Electrolyze
1 Flame Jab
1 Mogg Infestation
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Repulse
1 Shattering Pulse
1. I cast Wheel of Fortune.
2. I cast Time Spiral.
3. I cast Psychotic Fury.
4. Wiped out Grimgrin.
5. Cast a few more random cards.
6. Cast Ignite Memories for 7.
7. Hit Mindstone, Blinkmoth Urn, Mana Crypt, Mindstone, Urza's Factory, Urza's Factory, & Urza's Factory.
I was so mad. Only 9 damage. He hadd 3 cards in had with 5+ cmc. Either way...after that Capsize won the game. Eventually I cast Oblivion Stone and wiped the board...only to play Tibor and Lumia with Diviner's Wand followed by Blue Sun's Zenith and Stroke of Genius for 10+.
I positively love this deck.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I can get behind most of those substitutions except losing shadow rift....I'm always pumped to draw that card.
I think this might be one of the sexiest things I've ever heard about this deck =P
Seriously, how often do you hear this?
There really are a lot of options that can fit into the deck though, so it's always hard getting everything you want in. Stroke pf Genius as a second BSZ is interesting. I take it that has been playing well for you?
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
The more I play this deck the more I want to add as many draw 7s as possible. That is where the power of the deck is. It is so easy to win off the back of Diviner's Wand and Draw 7s. I have been eyeballing these as well.
Time Reversal
Braingeyser
Mind Spring
These are a few other draw spells that I have been contemplating.
Careful Study
Compulsive Research
Thirst for Knowledge
Flux
Frantic Search
Opportunity
Recurring Insight
Either way...my point is that the cantriping cards simply for the sake of cantriping just aren't cutting it. Here are the win conditions as I see them.
1. Voltron Creature. This can either be Tibor and Lumia or even a manland.
2. Ignite Memories - This gets really nutty when combined with "Free Spells" like Time Spiral and Frantic Search.
3. Cerebral Vortex - While this needs to have good timing to actually kill someone...there is almost always a few times per game that this can have a major impact. Plus you get bonus points if you cast Reiterate.
4. Decking - With the Draw X spells that this deck has...it isn't unreasonable to "Stroke" a deck. This will obviously take some extra time and planning...but it is very much an option.
I don't believe that I missed anything.
The reason why I am advocating so many heavy hitting draw spells is because the games I lose come from "whiffing" on cantrips.
Any thoughts?
Edit: I think that Inkmoth Nexus may be worth an inclusion. While this goes against the damage theme that the deck uses...it does give another win condition without any real drawback.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
The cantrips fit in well for my build, because Leering Emblem alone powers insanely quickly with cheap spells. It's why I had issues with BSZ, the three blue just to start would really drain a lot of resources.
I'm reconsidering it though, as with the cost reducers I now run, I can afford to step it up a bit.
I really wish I had a Timespiral. I'm starting to include the 'free' spells, because as soon as you add the reducers, they actually help provide mana to keep the chain going.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I am interested to see your new list.
What do you think about including Inkmoth Nexus as an additional "free" win condition. I look at the poison that it adds as another form of general damage. The fact that it is a land and costs the deck nothing makes me believe that it deserves a spot. At it's worst it is a colorless land that provides a pinch blocker. At it's best it will knock out a player in one hit. Remember that with Diviner's Wand and a draw 7...you are giving 8 Poison counters. That extra 2 "damage" can't be too hard to come up with. I mean...what else could you ask from a land?
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
While Inkmoth will have similar disadvantages, the ease to set up a kill far outweighs that. I just don't happen to have one yet; now that they will be easy to get thanks to the precon, I might have to invest in a few.
Believe me, I know full well the power of BSZ, it just seemed extra when it really didn't help me go off in a turn, I was doing that already. I'm taking a second look at all of my cantrips now after my experiences with Vision Skeins, to see if I can upgrade them to give a little bit more oomph.
I'll be fiddling with the deck tonight, so I'll post my current experiment with the cost reducers, as well as the changes I make.
============================================================================
This is what I was running last week, still tweaking this list a bit.
============================================================================
? - may be cut
* - is awesome
CAPS - placeholder for/will be exchanged for
4 Tibor and Lumia
Instants
1 Shadow Rift
1 Mind Games
1 Brainstorm - ?
1 Skred
2 Snap
2 Reality Ripple
2 Vision Skeins - QUICKEN
2 Psychotic Fury
2 Ignorant Bliss
3 Oona's Grace
3 Repulse
3 Long-Term Plans
3 Electrolyse - ?
3 Cerebral Vortex
4 Turnabout - *
4 Inspiration
4 Fact of Fiction
4 Grab the Reins
2x Flash of Insight
1 Turn Aside - VEX
1 Arcane Denial
1 Dream Fracture
Sorceries
1 Wheel of Fate - ?
1 Reconstruction - ?
1 Artful Dodge
1 Flame Jab
1 Gamble
1 Faithless Looting
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Recoup
3 Fabricate
3 Windfall
3 Wheel of Fortune
4 Deep Analysis
4 Concentrate
4 Seize the Day
4 Past in Flames - *
2 Walking Atlas
3 Guard Gomazoa - trial
3 Gomazoa - trial
4 Anger
4 Solemn Simulacrum
5 River Kelpie
Artifacts
2 Swiftfoot Boots
2 Leering Emblem - *
2 Runechanter's Pike
3 Diviner's Wand
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Sol Ring
2 Izzet Signet
3 Darksteel Ingot
4 Paradise Plume
2 helm of Awakening
2 Sapphire Medallion
2 Ruby Medallion - CATALYST STONE
5 Stone Calendar
6 Mana Matrix
Enchantments
3 Secrets of the Dead - *
3 Burning Vengeance - ?
3 Charisma - ?
5 Spellweaver Volute - *
Planeswalker
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
----
LANDS - 36
13 Snow-Covered Mountain - -1
12 Snow-Covered Island - +1
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Temple of the False God
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Buried Ruin
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Terrain Generator
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
Is what I currently have.
For the last three lands on my list, my meta has a lot of excess Maze of Ith and Kor Haven showing up, with enough Vesuva's to make things unpleasant. In one game (different deck) I had 2 mazes out, someone else had a Kor Haven, and then Vesuva'd my maze, and a third person eventually dropped their maze. Was exciting... Then I got a Life from the loam to go with my ghost quarter.
I have ordered myself an [/c]Academy Ruins[/c], So I want to add that in, as well as Deserted Temple and Minamo, School at Water's Edge.
Other cards that want in: (to varying degress)
0 Terramorphic Expanse - ?
0 Evolving Wilds - ?
3 Frantic Search
2 Words of Wisdom
2 Echoing Truth
2 Metamorphose
2 Shattering Pulse
3 Chaos Warp
4 Mystic Retrieval
3 Smash
3 Seething Song
4 Overblaze
1 Weight of Spires - meh
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Crimson Wisps
1 Reckless Charge
Should be fun for the cuts...
Also for those of you going the 'draw 7' route, some cards that have always been on the side of mine:
Memory Jar
Magus of the Jar
Time Reversal
Temporal Cascade
Chandra Ablaze
========================================
Current Changes
========================================
-Snow-Covered Mountain
+Minamo, School at Water's Edge
-Turn Aside
+Vex
Vex is not the best counterspell of all time, but I like how it can be an unconditional hard counter for U with my cost reducers out.
-Recoup
+Mystic Retrieval
Despite the higher initial cost, the abillity to reuse any given spell more than once, and the ability to hit instants has improved my opinion of this card
-Vision Skeins
+Quicken
Was always just a placeholder for it. I can't wait to quicken a Past in Flames. Especially if I have a Volute out. Things could get disgusting.
-Wheel of Fate
+Chaos Warp
Not sure on losing the wheel... The inability to flashback is what finally did it for me, and that I have to wait for it. It can set up some sick turns, but really telegraphs your moves to your opponents. It's also less than exciting to draw late game. That, and I needed some more removal...
-Electrolyze
+Overblaze
Electrolyze is in a card what this deck is overall. That said, 2 damage and 1 card just doesn't... oomph. Overblaze on the other hand, is like a Psychotic Fury, that stacks with itself, and can fry the ground even faster. Dear god, this is going to be awesome in here.
-Brainstorm
+Frantic Search
I have long enjoyed using Brainstorm with the wheels to save some important pieces, or for targetted discard. That said, while being an iconic card, it just doesn't wow enough in here. Frantic Search will help dig as well, plus it will help with mana issues with the cost reducers.
-Solemn Simulacrum
+Plagiarize
Solemn gives us much needed ramp, and is a nice chump blocker. I don't like him taking up 4 mana though. Also, since the deck draws plenty as is, no one has qualms in running him over to get to me. Plagiarize on the other hand can really mess someone up, especially with a wheel of fortune stacked with it. I'm tempted to add in a Wheel and Deal, but there aren't enough effects in this deck to capitalize on it, so I won't.
-Grab the Reins
+Echoing Truth
Grab was really mana intensive... Echoing Truth is also far less conditional (hits enchantments) and is preemptively good against tokens.
Ruby Medallion
Catalyst Stone
I think the stone will help more overall, especially if I cast a PIF.
When my Academy Ruins arrives, it will replace Reconstruction.
I am strongly tempted to replace Charisma with Crucible of worlds and put in the fetches. In general, it will work well with retrace, as well as protect some of my lands, and give me more reach with removing mazes of ith with my striplands.
Some of my recent paranoia towards removal, is that my brother has threatened running Mana Maze in some of his decks. This would be... interesting.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
The warrior I'm a bit more iffy on, since you can always accidentally kill him, but the deck does run a far higher proportion of blue spells compared to red currently, so it should be fine. He's a great way to filter through your hand twice. Better filtration than Shattered Perception for the cost, though perception feeds the GY.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I get the premise in the cards...but the sad fact is that these are not Wheel Effects. Many times with this deck I have been dropped into top deck mode and pull a Wheel from the top and proceed to win. These types of cards simply don't do that. I will admit that the flashback is attractive.
As for your list Bob...you should try Reins of Power over Grab the Reins. It accomplishes almost the same thing, at instant speed, and gives a Fog effect in a pinch. I also don't understand your choice for Vex.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
Is the card itself good? Eh, not really?
What it has going for me:
-Hard Counter. Straight up counters a spell. No fancy stuff
-With my cost reducers, it costs a single U. This is big for me.
-Replacing Turn Aside, which was far too restrictive for me.
What it doesn't have going:
-Costs 3.
-Gives the opponent a card. (This could be used politically, but meh).
Overall, my cost reducers have actually played a very strong role in card decisions for me in the last few builds. I really want to see what these cards can enable for me, and the best way to do that is to really stretch them.
As far as counters were going, I found I wanted a 3rd one in, but wanted to stay out of heavy color requirement (Cryptic Command's triple blue annoys me about this). I added Turn Aside since it's cheap, and protects my stuff. In playtesting, I found it to be way too limited.
While digging through my Blue cards for a Frantic Search, I found Vex. Looked playably decent at first glance, so I made the replacement with available resources.
I am certain there are better options. Heck, I even think Circular Logic will probably make me happier, but for now, it's playable at worst.
--
On Shattered Perception: I agree.
I actually have considered various Wind effects, but even then, I factor Winds of Change far higher than Shattered Perception. Tolarian Winds did almost make it in, due to instant speed, but it really just isn't strong enough.
Whirlpool Warrior gets a nod at being 2 effects in one at cheap, if needed, and on a creature to hold a sword if necessary. It certainly is playable, and is probably how I'd play Niv-Mizzet if I ever built one.
Wind effects are good at cycling your hand for a new one if you have no fuel, a good example would be land flooded, without a retrace spell. The deck runs a lot of fuel though, so it really shouldn't be necessary.
---
On Reins of Power. Good call. I liked Grab simply because it can be a rather permanent answer, and deals well with indestructible creatures (I am occasionally up against a Konda). I dislike how expensive Grab is.
I have already replaced it with echoing truth (see the confirmed current changes at the bottom); I need to update the front list on the OP with a merge of this last list with the newest changes.
Chaos Warp and Echoing should help with indestructibles, as well as with some enchantment issues I have been running into.
Echoing dealing with tokens is pure bonus as far as I'm concerned.
Reins would also add another alternate wincon to the deck, which I approve of. I think its versatility speaks highly for it. I shall have to see if I can cut something to experiment with it.
---
I have ordered a Timespiral. On one hand, I think the land untapping will be very strong. On the other, I dislike a bit the random chaos-ness of it. I like having my graveyard there to act as a second set of fuel; this especially hurts if I've already flashed back a lot of my fuel, since then my deck will have a lower proportion of fuel than normal.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I agree. This is a great card. The problem is...targeting my stuff never really bothers me. If I lose something...it isn't the end of the world. However some of my opponent's abilities are back breaking to this deck. For this reason I have decided that Interdict may be the better 3rd counterspell in the deck. Have you been shut out of the game by Maze of Ith? I chose this over Stifle because it replaces itself.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
Ignite Memories for 6 after a buybacked Whim of Volrath and some other shenanigans. Mimeoplasm guy who's been dominating all game thanks to an early Buried Alive has 20 life and in hand 3 lands and Butcher of Malakir (5:symb::symb:). 28 damage later I was all like GG BROSKI
I don't have time to put in a lot of input but now my biggest issue is trying to find a balance between cheap cantrippy cards (for storm shenanigans) and flashback/retrace stuff. I am moving away from the cantrips currently but at the same time I am a sucker for a good storm finish. I'm thinking I'll have to decide between Temporal Fissure and Ignite Memories. You've tried both types of decks- what do you prefer? More cantrips with a storm/board-wipe capability? Or flashback/retrace with River Kelpie and Secrets of the dead?
I recently added a couple of my pet cards Bribery and Consecrated Sphinx (go go Wheel effects!!) just to up the power level a bit while I build my confidence with it. It feels dirty though...
EDIT: Bob have you tried Submerge for your indestructible issues? Surely someone is playing with forests...
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
This deck is impossible to build. There's so many things I want in and I don't know what to do with it.
Here are Ideas I've got/like:
-Artifact mana (You can drop as many artifacts as you want each turn as long as you can pay= Better than lands for that. Add as much artifact mana as you can.)
-Proliferate Package: Those two draw spells that proliferate with that red burn spell that proliferates. Add Inexorable Tide. You got tons of proliferation. Now you can add the 5 shrines if you want; Red and Blue mana battery(big startup cost in mana but end game extra a lot of mana); Charge counter artifacts; +1/+1 counters; Infect(Grafted Exoskeleton); -1/-1 (Infect, Wither); so on...
-LOTSA Draw: Have a lot of draw spells that might draw more than half of your deck alone. This is expensive manawise but can be dealt with cost reducers.
-Cheap Burn: Combines well with the draw. With Pike and Leering Emblem you can make a deck that controls while gaining card advantage and killing your opponent at the same time. Wow.
-Cantrip Subtheme: LOL, nuff said.
-Flashback: I like. you've seen that don't need to explain.
-Buyback: I don't like this as much.
-Storm: Not for me, except maybe Haze of Rage.
-Tap Out: I like, works well with the emblem, the charmbreaker devils, Wee Dragonauts and Kiln Fiend without being too strong and making the game unfun for my weaker playgroup. Awesome.
What are your thoughts?
I've found that one card in multiplayer isn't really backbreaking. Letting them redraw what I want gone though... can be. Counterspell may be straight up stronger, but I'm really wanting to test out this cost reduction theory. I have a ton of counterspells lying around, thanks to it being reprinted every other set for a while, so it's easy enough to swap one in if I find that I don't get the counter reliably for U. Circular logic remains in my mind now though, but it lends additional weakness to the deck from GY removal.
Maze has been problematic before, but having 3x the land destruction helps keep them in check, as does the boots. However, I like Interdict. I really wanted to add Trickbind to the deck, because there are so many abilities to stop, and no one ever expects it, it can absolutely shut people down. Interdict looks like the sweet middleground with the self replacement. I'll need to dig through my blue cards and see if I have one =D
Also, this has added benefit of stopping most GY removal, without having to preemptively counter something a person may use on someone else. The only one trickbind would stop that this wouldn't (off the top of my head) is Bojuka Bog. I think I'm fine with that.
=D
The deck started out as pure cantrip, carrying over the flame jab+kelpie combo from the previous more control-type deck. Since then, I've added Oona's Grace, Secrets of the dead, and a ton of extra flashback, (I love how they printed Past in Flames, it feels like they did it just for me). So I'm really liking the re-usability right now. I don't feel that I'm actively suffering on the storm side. Especially on the helpful side has been the Urza 'free' spells recently, and turnabout which have kicked the deck into the next tier, it feels like. While I have still managed to refrain from adding the absolutely disgusting stuff to date, my removal of Trade Secrets shows that I'm still trying to hold back the deck a tiny bit.
While I only have 1 storm card in the deck currently, as most kinda suck, or are exceptionally strong (really, no middle ground?), the various equipment and the plume give a lot of triggers that count spells cast, so add a very storm feeling to the deck; Since I've managed to gain 20+ life off of a plume in a single turn, and played it after drawing it off my second wheel that turn... I'd say getting spells done isn't terribly a problem, =P
That's because it is dirty... =P I won't criticize though, everyone's meta is different, and sometimes you have to go there. Sphinx is just one of those ridiculous powerhouses though. Some more of the shared winds effects may help you with the sphinx. You can also use the Jars. If you also use a Rings of Brighthearth you can stack the triggers to get a new hand off of the Jar.
My goodness, I run this in edric and then completely ignore it for this deck... That said, I have actually had a number of games go green-less recently. Odd.
I know what you mean, I've overhauled this deck so many times, and there's still new ways to play it. And I still haven't built my buyback version!
Artifact mana: This is blue and red's ramp method, don't cut too many lands though, as you still want to consistently make land drops. When you miss a land drop, but have to pay to drop an artifact, you just payed to get extra mana that should have been for free. There remain a large amount of good choices though; two that I'm currently not running, but have looked at are: Star Compass and Coldsteel heart
Proliferate: Interesting idea. I haven't actively thought about it here, but it could work well in the deck. I'm concerned though that it's very dependant on Inexorable Tide though, outside of that, there aren't a lot of spells.
Big Draw:Cost reducers have been great so far, but they don't solve everything, you still need to get to them, and then get them out, and then not have them break =P. That said, some draw that does more than just replace itself is good.
Burn Yep, one of the early versions ran Lightning Bolt, Thunderbolt (T&L specialty!), among others. The removal package was quite nice, sometimes I miss it.
Cantrip: Yap! Self replacement means you always keep a nice grip.
Flashback: I've been enjoying myself immensely with this one so far. Doubling the value of every spell is nice, and it turns cantrips into pure draw.
Buyback: You really have to commit to one or the other, though spell reducers help blur the line a bit. There are some useful buyback spells, and it's another way to make sure you have a high spell-count. The reason I've avoided it a bit, is that it doesn't advance you through your library as much; rather than keeping a full grip through replacement and forward motion, you maintain it by never losing the cards of value that you have. I'm concerned the playstyle would get a bit stale. Although, I also think that a fully reduced Searing Touch to R is just the definition of hilarious. I have problems.
Storm: On one side, you have Empty the warrens and Grapeshot, which are a bit lackluster, and boring (though grapeshot could get devastating at times...). On the other, you have Temporal Fissure and Volcanic Awakening, which may have a side effect called friendloss... I am not kidding when I say I've hit way over 20 spells in a turn with some of the recent additions (especially turnabout, that card is disturbingly effective at all times). Either of those last two at that spell velocity, is simply not a nice thing to do. I think Ignite Memories is a happy middleground. It's showy, it's flashy, and it's hilariously effective, especially in EDH where people like big spells. The last time I played the Haze, I was a bit unimpressed, but now that I have reducers and could (theoretically) play it for R repeatedly, it can get disgusting quite quickly. Especially since most people have more removal slots in their decks than stack manipulation spells. My last remaining gripe is that it's sorcery speed.
Tap Out: ??
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Artifact: Usually it's -1 for + artifact mana, no? No, wait that was ramp. Same thing, no? I'd have a way to classify the artis. Going off Terrain Generator, an extra land *Mana* is 2 mana + not using a land you have. Basically, It is 3 mana. Now, so Manalith DOES fit. It also gives any color of mana you want. And it's usable this turn so essentially costs 2. Signets have the same idea but are actually better, but still, lets take Manalith as a reference point.. Anything that gives you x mana should not cost more than 2x, where 2x is the cost - the mana given to you by the artifact that turn. Once I have a list of all the artifacts that conform, I can cut the ones I dislike. I've got the list on my laptop I'll edit it in when I get the chance.
Prolif: I've wanted to make a deck with this for a while but not really sure this is the place, however. Maybe a Green Blue.
Big Draw: I've got a list of this too, not sure how good though... How many draw spells are good? I don't know how it works with the flashback package that I do want in. I also don't know how to evaluate them. Some like Sift where you draw and discard ca essentially just read as draw X because you'd discard at EOT anyways. You can also afford to put more situational spells in there because you can get rid of them if you want.
Burn: Why did you cut it then? Should I just not bother? Their cheapness I like but makes the cost reducers less good.
Cantrip: I don't know really which I'd want to see and which are in just cause they cantrip. Do you draw enough to just discard the extra ones?
Flashback: I've got a list of the ones I like here too. Past in Flames is above my budget (I think.) What do you think of Burning Vengeance?
Buyback: I've been thinking the same thing. You can spend all your mana on buyback if its better than the rest of your deck or spend none as you don't really run out of cards either. Having each game end with you have a 7 card hand with 4 buyback spells sounds lame to me too.
Storm: Ignite memory is the one I considered the 2nd most. How much mana do you really make?
Tap Out: Playing aggressively, lots of cards and you tap out every turn, don't leave mana open and don't really include counterspells. How often do you still have lands untaped EOT?
Gelectrode might also be fun when you cast many spells a turn.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I'm getting two new decks!
Thoughts?
I'm not a fan of reducers that make you pick a card type, let alone ones that are practically a guaranteed 2-for-1 against you because it will most definitely get blowed up. What's more after you're reduced the cost for some of these spells past they might not even help you that much. What good is semblance anvil when you're trying to cast Shattering Spree or Impulse?
The more global ones like Stone Calendar and Helm of Awakening make a lot more sense, I think.
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For the record Past in Flames is totally gamebreaking. What an amazing card. Every game I have won with this deck so far has involved casting it at least once. Check out this sequence- 8 mana on board. Cast Turnabout (also god-tier), tap my lands in response for 4 floating and 8 untapped mana. Cast Past in Flames. Flashback Turnabout. Flashback Increasing Vengeance, copying Turnabout twice. Tap all my lands for mana in response to each of three more Turnabouts for a total of 25/26 mana. Flashback Devil's Play for 22, Kill the Mimeoplasm guy with 22 life. 3 leftover mana for a Repulse ready against the Kaalia player.
Let it burn, baby!
One thing I am working on with this deck is trying to shorten my turn time. With a stocked graveyard and lots of draw and flashback effects I'm starting to take too damn long to come up with the big play. Another thing is that I'm starting to think Psychosis Crawler would be really, really good with all the draw and draw 7 effects. Maybe I'll clean up and take out Bribery or Consecrated Sphinx since I am an evil person for playing them anyway.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP