I love Tibor and Lumia myself, and it seems Dark Ascension has a few new goodies for consideration! Mystic Retrieval seems perfect, as does Secrets of the Dead with all the Flashback and Retrace we run. Increasing Vengeance looks to be bonkers as well. You could flash it back with something as seemingly benign as Reckless Charge and all of a sudden (if T&L have flying) you've done 4 damage to all non-flyers and Tibor and Lumia are 12/3 flying haste!
Begin that sequence with an Artful Dodge and that could be enough for a knock-out blow if you've gotten in some early general beats. This deck is so fun to play!
Oh yeah, and Faithless Looting. :rolleyes::D Also, I know he's pricey, but would Snapcaster Mage be a shoe-in for this deck? We're already running Riptide Laboratory.
Secrets of the dead - was the first spoiled card to really excite me. River Kelpie in this deck is nuts, and my current level of flashback isn't quite up to par yet (I feel). This card is going to rock.
Artful Dodge - is a bit of a quandary for me. Already have Shadow Rift and Distortion Strike, and I debate the need of a 3rd. Distortion strike replays itself for free, which is nice, and also gives +1, which makes me like it a lot. Shadow Rift straight up cantrips, and I like that as well. Either way, Artful Dodge fits in with those two, and it comes down to where you place your added value for the cards, and which ones/how many you want to run.
Mystic Retrieval - seems a bit expensive. I like it conceptually, but I would run Recoup first (which is going in after I get my DKA cards). It has the value of being the best card in your graveyard, but at a steep extra cost. And needing a graveyard to begin with. I think this one will sit on the sidelines a bit, and see if I need another recoup.
Increasing Vengeance - I haven't run Fork in ages, but this one might make the cut, especially when I get to my new mana-rock direction.
Shattered Perception - Too expensive. I've toyed with the idea of a Winds of Change, and that might make it, but this comes strictly after winds.
Faithless Looting - This card alone made me wait for DKA to rebuild T&L again. This hinted at great promise for this set. I love this card.
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Snapcaster Mage - ah, the dilema. Yes, he is awesome, and fits our plan exceedingly well. Yes, he is disgusting with riptide lab. Yes, he is expensive and makes me cry. Yes, he has one toughness, and doesn't fly, which occasionally makes him a casualty of war.
If you can afford to run him, please do. I have a feeling he'll be awesome in all the ways that Charmbreaker Devils has disappointed me. Please let me know how he runs for you.
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Lands, Mana Sources, and other stuff.
So, with this decks cheap draw, cantrips, and general ability to cycle through the library rather quickly, the major limiting resource is mana.
Some of the major issues I have noted so far playing the current incarnation of the deck:
1) Need more ways to get lands out. This isn't easy. I only know of two colorless methods, and thats the atlas, and the terrain generator. I am considering Deserted Temple to help out, but the generator is already highly mana intensive. Though it is always awesome with the Thawing Glaciers.
2) Also, I feel there are a few many lands that ETB tapped, or tap for colorless. Scrying Sheets keeps bouncing in and out, and I have to say, I think I've ever only used it once in this deck. Likewise with the Blinkmoth Nexus.
3) I've hinted/talked about this for a long time, but since the deck plays so many spells, the best mana rocks are the cost reducers. This is true for both this flashback version, as well as my hypothetical buyback version...
The last two are harder to get out. The first tutor is likely to get a Helm of awakening. There are also a number of more effective mana rocks I could be using, and a better proportion of them.
The other advantage to running cost reducers, is it allows me to raise the overall mana curve of the deck a bit more. While cantrips and cheap draw will still be important, I can also add a few cards that draw more than a net of one: like inspiration, divination, Jace's Ingenuity, Concentrate, Distant Memories, etc.
I'm also starting to look at a few more good, cheap, defensive creatures. Unfortunately, my current game plan is to take a beating to an inch of my life, and then kill everyone. This isn't very productive I find. Some of the Jellyfish may work well in this role.
Overall, there are a lot of things I want to tweak in the deck, but I am afraid of doing too much at once, and changing how the core of the deck operates. There already are a number of cards available to cut, which have been under performing recently, so there's a starting block, but how far it goes remains to be seen.
Excuse me if I don't make a ton of sense. It's late.
On the lands, I'd definitely try to drop most of the ones that CIPT. Also, Scrying Sheets uses 1 mana a turn in a deck where you need every last mana. I guess with the all the deck manipulation you'll hit snow more of the time than other decks; Top would help this as well, obviously. Blinkmoth Nexus could go too, though I guess you can pull a win out with it now and again when you get your equipment on the field.
I'm sure you've considered it already, but Trinket Mage for Top and Basilisk Collar seems good. I know your deck is a cantrip machine, but Top filtering seems like it could only help. I've got other suggestions, but I'm too tired to type coherently right now. Tomorrow!
I have won off the back of a 33/32 unblockable, flying, double striking, double attacking blinkmoth before, but its really more the exception than anything else.
I do like the manlands, as they up my creature count in an otherwise very creature light deck, especially the flyers. It comes down to the colorless mana though. If I replace it with another manland, I would choose faerie conclave, even though it ETB tapped.
I think Spinerock Knoll is the final big offender. There is very little worth putting behind it in this deck.
I think Spinerock Knoll is the final big offender. There is very little worth putting behind it in this deck.
Plus the fact that it can be really tough to trigger it yourself so you might also be working it off of opponents triggers a lot... Ya I would cut that from the list.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Hey bob as a former T+L player I just wanted to tell you two things:
1) Your decklist is awesome! Very unique for EDH. You've killed a lot of sacred cows with this and I can't wait to try it out. Flame Jab and River Kelpie? YES PLZ. I tend to have problems with cutting popular goodstuff staples and this will give me a chance to do that because...
2) I just bought a bunch of these cards to play with. Granted it was only 20 bucks' worth and I may have accidentally bought some I didn't need based on some comments on this page, but yeah. I'll be sure to come back here with ideas and such after I try it out, hopefully this weekend.
Hey bob as a former T+L player I just wanted to tell you two things:
1) Your decklist is awesome! Very unique for EDH. You've killed a lot of sacred cows with this and I can't wait to try it out. Flame Jab and River Kelpie? YES PLZ. I tend to have problems with cutting popular goodstuff staples and this will give me a chance to do that because...
2) I just bought a bunch of these cards to play with. Granted it was only 20 bucks' worth and I may have accidentally bought some I didn't need based on some comments on this page, but yeah. I'll be sure to come back here with ideas and such after I try it out, hopefully this weekend.
It's wacky, it's fun, and it does a mind-boggling amount of nothing, and then kills someone.
I actually just rebuilt the deck last night, pulling out a lot of the more expensive cards (mana wise and price wise), but it was late so I didn't get to update the OP as I wanted.
There are still a bunch of cards I want to try out, and I feel as if I need a lot more artifact removal now that Grafdigger's Cage has been printed, but hey, that just means that's the first person to die.
The new Secrets of the Dead just made the whole river kelpie thing explode. Flashback as a theme has been greatly increased.
for #2, one of the things I like about this deck is how easy it is to build it on a budget. The equipment in general is not expensive, and that's the major current theme. Getting T&L to 21 power is actually surprisingly easy. Savage Beating has actually been removed for being overkill. Cheap blue cantrippy spells are easy to find as well. I'm still of the opinion that this deck would be really evil as a Niv deck, but T&L seem so innocuous and innocent. Also, they drop so much sooner.
Secrets of the dead - was the first spoiled card to really excite me. River Kelpie in this deck is nuts, and my current level of flashback isn't quite up to par yet (I feel). This card is going to rock.
Artful Dodge - is a bit of a quandary for me. Already have Shadow Rift and Distortion Strike, and I debate the need of a 3rd. Distortion strike replays itself for free, which is nice, and also gives +1, which makes me like it a lot. Shadow Rift straight up cantrips, and I like that as well. Either way, Artful Dodge fits in with those two, and it comes down to where you place your added value for the cards, and which ones/how many you want to run.
Mystic Retrieval - seems a bit expensive. I like it conceptually, but I would run Recoup first (which is going in after I get my DKA cards). It has the value of being the best card in your graveyard, but at a steep extra cost. And needing a graveyard to begin with. I think this one will sit on the sidelines a bit, and see if I need another recoup.
Increasing Vengeance - I haven't run Fork in ages, but this one might make the cut, especially when I get to my new mana-rock direction.
Shattered Perception - Too expensive. I've toyed with the idea of a Winds of Change, and that might make it, but this comes strictly after winds.
Faithless Looting - This card alone made me wait for DKA to rebuild T&L again. This hinted at great promise for this set. I love this card.
A quick spoileresque rundown:
Secrets - duh.
Artful dodge - Made it in. After thinking about it a bit, the +1 off of the rebound spell isn't really needed in this deck, and an extra U is worth the cost of controlling the second cast. Also, flashback baby!
Mystic Retrieval - did not make it yet. Recoup is now in, we'll see if it's a player.
Increasing - not in. A tad expensive, I think it could go in fairly well to copy some of the card draw spells, but I didn't open one, =P
Shattered Perception - Winds of change didn't make it either. Tolarian winds did though, as its an instant. Windfall also, since I might gain cards off of it.
Faithless - yeah, I likes it. Oh no! Two cards with flashback just fell into my graveyard! Oh the horror!
In. Well, except for memory crystal, obviously. I actually cut lands in favor of more rocks. Since blue/red can't really ramp, I've decided to actually try lowering my land count, and trying the rock route. Catalyst Stone isn't in yet, since I forgot to set it aside. I don't know where it is. I expect it to replace the ruby medallion, my red isn't very heavy in here.
The other advantage to running cost reducers, is it allows me to raise the overall mana curve of the deck a bit more. While cantrips and cheap draw will still be important, I can also add a few cards that draw more than a net of one: like inspiration, divination, Jace's Ingenuity, Concentrate, Distant Memories, etc.
Concentrate was already in, inspiration added, Jace's Ingenuity to be added soon. I like me some draw. I don't really like the UU though. Divination is a sideways glance, I prefer instant draw, Distant Memories in retrospect just sucks. If it exiled face down, that'd be cool as a mind trick, but short of exiling something cool, I don't see it doing very much. Also takes UU.
I'm also starting to look at a few more good, cheap, defensive creatures. Unfortunately, my current game plan is to take a beating to an inch of my life, and then kill everyone. This isn't very productive I find. Some of the Jellyfish may work well in this role.
2 are added. We'll see how well they work.
EDIT: Oh, I also added Snap (which was a long time coming, really, my gosh I've been lazy on that one), which is even more awesome now with cost reducers ( a little at least), and Turnabout. While I haven't put in any infinite mana combos, (and I won't; but you can if that's your thing), a surprise mana increase can be pretty cool I think.
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So. The new card of the day (which isn't in yet, but has a slot reserved once I find it (wasn't in my binder )) is Quicken.
Hmmm...I don't think I'm mega keen of secrets of the dead but then again my version wants to be more aggressive and I've been thinking about cutting kelpie
I do like cutting savage beating it's just too expensive
A pet card of mine is radiate I killed a table the other day by radiating a fire/ice to tap down the board eot and swing in with a 46 power empyrial plated tibor and lumia with seize the dayx2
My version is starting to feel like an old Psychatog deck but manic
Hmmm...I don't think I'm mega keen of secrets of the dead but then again my version wants to be more aggressive and I've been thinking about cutting kelpie
Either of them with retrace is just sooooo good... It is a cute engine though, and not at all necessary, I just like the way it plays out, and can turn lands into advantage.
If you do cut them, either cut Oona's Grace, or replace it with Trade routes. 3 mana to cycle a land (though it does power up the equipments) is a bit harsh.
I do like cutting savage beating it's just too expensive
Yeah, it's good, but always seemed kind of extra... and I've never really been terribly happy to see it.
A pet card of mine is radiate I killed a table the other day by radiating a fire/ice to tap down the board eot and swing in with a 46 power empyrial plated tibor and lumia with seize the dayx2
My version is starting to feel like an old Psychatog deck but manic
I don't like repeal as much, Frantic Search is great, I may need to run one... Depending on what you want from it, yiou may find Gitaxian probe to be good.
I think I need a copy of the wisps also now. I keep forgetting about that one. Be careful with it, as you must use Psychotic Fury before the wisps due to the color changing effect.
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I annoyed my brother in a game last night due to an excessively long turn. Khemba had attacked me with 9 6/6 pegasus tokens, and had 4 cats out defensively. I managed to survive the attack by flinging Khemba at one of the tokens, and blocking as necessary, but sitting at 3 life with little board position and 3 cards in hand wasn't happy. Khemba was at 40+. My brother, with Sliver Queen, had an O-Stone out, and wasn't worried.
Of course, those cards were River Kelpie, Spellweaver Volute (no, it doesn't trigger the kelpie, I know, but it remains disgusting anyways), and a Recoup; and I had a number of cost reducers on the field, and a Secrets of the dead
Volute + Kelpie + Flame jab, remains one of the most disgusting things ever (Kelpie got plowshared though ). Volute targeted a windfall, Recoup targets Wheel of fortune, Volute casts the windfall, imprints a Vision Skeins, get 9 cards off the wind fall (yeah, Kemba had a Mind's Eye), flash back the wheel, Skeins goes off, we draw 2, then titch hands and draw 7, I imprint a Cerebral Vortex on the Volute, find an equipment, have dumped Anger in my graveyard, oh, and I found myself a turnabout. And a Mana Matrix. Long story short, I one shotted Khemba. Due to a play mistake (my god so many triggers!), I died to SQ the next turn, but I should have had that game in the bag so many ways, but I was being pressured to hurry up.
Have you any idea how silly and yet satisfying Turnabout + Spellweaver Volute is? How about when all instants and sorceries you play cost 3 less, and blue spells by another 1?
Also, despite wasting my entire hand + mana that turn to kill Khemba, (which made SQ feel safe), the Past in Flames in my GY meant that even with the O-Stone killing all my stuff, SQ was dead my following turn. (If I hadn't messed up, oh, about a bazillion times. (one of which was I had forgotten to keep track of Paradise plume (set to blue) triggers, which alone would have put me out of death range. Between Volute, turnabout, and Oona's Grace, I should have gained at least 15-20 life. I attacked with a 20+ T&L, and I found my leering emblem rather late in that chain so there was +10 there, +T&L, +volute, +kelpie, +2x turnabout, +windfall, skeins, cerebral vortex, so that's 19, ignoring the rest of my card burn for 2 sets of mana... yeah, I should have been pretty high in life.)...
Awesome game.
The following game I died rather quickly, as apparently the capability to one-shot a 40+ life player, who has the capability to crank out 5-6 5/5 flyers and 3-4 7/7 cats per turn, from no board position and no life is apparently threatening...
As for Mystic Retrieval... I'm starting to like it a bit more. I was really feeling the sorcery-only limitation on recoup last night, though that's nice with Volute. I do like a lot the lower cost of recoup though, as well as that its based in red, and red mana can be expendable at times, more so than blue.
I have always wanted to play a deck where Spellweaver Volute was good. I can't wait for the cards to get here. I feel like I should have ordered even more as I have missed some real goodies on this page alone.
Hey have you thought about Mana Geyser? I'm sure you would go off pretty consistently with it...
Ah, Mana Geyser. When I added turnabout (because it's one of those cards that should never have been printed), I considered it, but I still have a deep-seated dislike of the card.
First, let me say that you are probably right, and that Flame Jab alone will probably make it amazing. Especially since, as I continue to repeat myself, mana is the most needed resource for this deck.
Now as to my deep-seated hate:
1) It adds only red. No matter how much I want blue, it just doesn't want to let me draw cards.
2) It's a sorcery, no spiffy tricks or whatnot, no extra mana on opponents turn if I need to make things dead. (exempting the awesomeness that is Quicken.
3) Finally, it depends on my opponents. While I have run it to success in the past, the dependence on the opponents makes me die a bit inside, especially since a lot of players in my group play reactively.
All of these are fairly minor, and I probably should put it back in, especially since now I have all the cost reducers. They make a world of difference. It really makes it almost a whole new deck.
So. The new card of the day (which isn't in yet, but has a slot reserved once I find it (wasn't in my binder )) is Quicken.
I'll let that one stew for a bit.
This was my tech when Dragonstorm was in standard. The mirror match was so strange...I would just sit back and then win in response.
Great deck by the way. Very creative.
Edit: Your original post doesn't seem to reflect many of the changes that you have been talking about. Most notably Rhystic Study is still listing. Would you please post an updated list?
A pet card of mine is radiate I killed a table the other day by radiating a fire/ice to tap down the board eot and swing in with a 46 power empyrial plated tibor and lumia with seize the dayx2
All of these are very good suggestions, and I love Visions of Beyond in this deck. It can easily be Ancestral Recall. Also, if we're going for most of the "untap X lands" suite and are running tons of one-mana spells and cards like Helm of Awakening to make the others even cheaper, I feel like the deck really must include at least one storm spell, and for me that would be Temporal Fissure. Now believe me, the main way I want to win with this deck is with Tibor and Lumia themselves, but when you chain even as few as 5 spells (cake for this deck), Fissure will bounce 6 lands and really shut down one player. A total storm board-bounce shouldn't be hard.
On a similar note, I love the Radiate on Fire / Ice for the mega tap-down.
I'm hesitant on Repeal though, because with the evasion tools this deck has, getting general damage through shouldn't be hard (Repeal could help in this), but I can also see it being useful getting rid of stuff like Ensnaring Bridge and problem enchantments like Faith's Fetters on T&L. The cantrip rules as well. Now I'm feeling like adding it. Looking at the first page, it coud easily replace Repulse.
bob, I'm waiting to Quicken good ole' Past in Flames as well. To that instant-speed end, Winding Canyons and Leyline of Anticipation seem good. Teferi maybe as well, but that's getting more controllish. I just love casting stuff like Stitch in Time EOT, especially if you've got Izzet Chronarch handy. I know this stuff increases the mana-curve, so take it with a grain of salt. I just love Chronarch, and he's :symu::symr: to boot.
Lastly, I'm going to remention Basilisk Collar. It's just the best thing ever with Charisma, and one of the deadliest cards for generals like T&L, Niv, Kumano, and Olivia.
Lastly, I'm going to remention Basilisk Collar. It's just the best thing ever with Charisma, and one of the deadliest cards for generals like T&L, Niv, Kumano, and Olivia.
While I agree with the inclusion of both cards...I don't believe there is any kind of positive interaction with them together.
I love you for adding Ignite Memories... That card is seriously awesome. I also like Timespiral, that looks like a strong addition to the deck. Wish I had one =P.
I think there's a lot I can take from the structure of your deck. It feels weird looking at it, I see the core of my deck, but I also see a very different personality to it, especially with the larger equipment package you're currently running. I actually also have to agree with most of it, Runecaster's pike is impressing me a bit less currently, despite being one of the initial cards that led me to build this aggro version.
I love you for adding Ignite Memories... That card is seriously awesome. I also like Timespiral, that looks like a strong addition to the deck. Wish I had one =P.
I am rather new to this thread but...as I was reading through...I figured it would be the perfect card. In EDH it really won't take that many triggers to knock someone out of the game.
I agree with you on the Sensei's Divining Top. Which draw spell would you recommend cutting in favor of Sensei's Divining Top? I am a little skeptical of Secrets of the Dead. It draws me a few cards...but just not nearly enough. The reason why I like River Kelpie is...he is almost always going to replace himself at the absolute worst. Secrets of the Dead requires an additional card just to break even. I will admit that it is bonkers with Past in Flames.
I think there's a lot I can take from the structure of your deck. It feels weird looking at it, I see the core of my deck, but I also see a very different personality to it, especially with the larger equipment package you're currently running. I actually also have to agree with most of it, Runecaster's pike is impressing me a bit less currently, despite being one of the initial cards that led me to build this aggro version.
You definitely deserve all the credit for the idea of the deck...I just added my two cents. Runecaster's Pike works alongside so many cards that make it bad. Past in Flames, all Flashback, all buyback...I just couldn't get it to pull its weight consistantly.
I can see this being a powerhouse. The problem that I see though is that it is competing with Charisma in my list. There isn't any more room for more enhancement...so that is definetly the section that would need to be cut from. The fact that you steal every creature on the board at will with Charisma + any red spell...is just too powerful to pass up on. I guess maybe it could compete with Empyrial Plate...but a consistant +7/+7 seems kind of hard to top. What do you think?
You had said in your original post that you pulled Trade Secrets out of the deck because of nutty plays...I really think that you should reconsider. All 3 of my tester games has ended in the following way:
1. Cast a bunch of random cantrips.
2. Cast Trade Secrets on any opponent.
3. Draw an obscene amount of cards.
4. Cast Cerebral Vortex targeting the same player.
5. Cast Ignite Memories on the rest of the players.
You can deal an absurd amount of damage and probably clear the table...I have done this exact play 3 out of 3 times testing this deck.
I am rather new to this thread but...as I was reading through...I figured it would be the perfect card. In EDH it really won't take that many triggers to knock someone out of the game.
I think I talked about it briefly in one of the earlier pages, if not, I had with some of my playgroup. I think it's awesome. I never put it in before, because I was waiting for the reducers, and then it slipped my mind. I'm really happy to see someone playing it though.
I agree with you on the Sensei's Divining Top. Which draw spell would you recommend cutting in favor of Sensei's Divining Top? I am a little skeptical of Secrets of the Dead. It draws me a few cards...but just not nearly enough. The reason why I like River Kelpie is...he is almost always going to replace himself at the absolute worst. Secrets of the Dead requires an additional card just to break even. I will admit that it is bonkers with Past in Flames.
Personally, I would cut Rhystic Study, but that's because my meta never lets me draw cards. They know me too well. Also, it's passive draw, rather than active. When you're actively burning through your library it does nothing, and if you need it to refill your hand because someone Identity Crisised you... That's when no one lets you draw cards.
I know that otherwise it's a very powerful card, and a lot of metas will just let you draw cards, since, dear god you have them all already anyways...
Otherwise, Compulsive Research stands out, being 3 cost for 2 cards at sorcery speed. I think there's better available.
After that, oddly enough, I would recommend Ponder simply on the basis of it being sorcery speed, or Peer through the depths because of the limitation on it.
Secrets doesn't replace itself, but usually kelpie doesn't either for me. If it eats removal, it's one that it's not coming back from. My meta might not be the most competitive, but removal for us means removed. We're heavy on the exile/tuck.
Secrets is also harder to remove. I may also be running a bit more flashback than you right now. Also, I really stress the retrace aspect.
I find that Oona's alone to be a bit subpar. Oona's + secret or kelpie is darn good. All 3 is stupidly good. Every land is an ancestral.
You definitely deserve all the credit for the idea of the deck...I just added my two cents. Runecaster's Pike works alongside so many cards that make it bad. Past in Flames, all Flashback, all buyback...I just couldn't get it to pull its weight consistantly.
Since every spell that flashes back is just used to gain more advantage, I usually find I don't mind it if I lose some bonus from the pike for that, but I do find it to be much harder to pump up than the other equipment. I also don't like the omission of toughness on it. First Strike is cool, but doesn't make up for it. I will probably replace it with the plate, and add consistency to my list.
I can see this being a powerhouse. The problem that I see though is that it is competing with Charisma in my list. There isn't any more room for more enhancement...so that is definetly the section that would need to be cut from. The fact that you steal every creature on the board at will with Charisma + any red spell...is just too powerful to pass up on. I guess maybe it could compete with Empyrial Plate...but a consistant +7/+7 seems kind of hard to top. What do you think?
I am currently not running plate (not for any good reason though). Between the two, I actually think the Emblem the stronger in this deck. It is very easy to go past +7/+7 with it. That said, I think both are deserving of slots.
I would not have it compete with Charisma, they serve completely different roles.
The main equipment you have that I'm not running is the Sword of Kaldra. The sword provides offensive boost, as well as strong removal... My problems with it when I ran it was the cost, and the threat.
Sword has such a high cost, and equip, that I often found it cumbersome. While I'd typically be able to exile one round of creatures, it immediately made me the number one threat, and T&L eat a ton of hate. I found that often I'd spend 8 mana, just to get my sword exiled in response to the equip.
Your mileage may vary.
You had said in your original post that you pulled Trade Secrets out of the deck because of nutty plays...I really think that you should reconsider. All 3 of my tester games has ended in the following way:
1. Cast a bunch of random cantrips.
2. Cast Trade Secrets on any opponent.
3. Draw an obscene amount of cards.
4. Cast Cerebral Vortex targeting the same player.
5. Cast Ignite Memories on the rest of the players.
You can deal an absurd amount of damage and probably clear the table...I have done this exact play 3 out of 3 times testing this deck.
That's hilarious. I find Trade Secrets to be a cute trick like that, and it does give you at least 4 cards, but it seems to be one of those cards that just makes the game end, and definitely makes someone a king otherwise.
It also just hurts to see the faces of the other 3 people at the table fall, because the one poor fool I chose doesn't realize he's signing their death warrants.
While most of my group have learned to not repeat it, I can see a new player coming in and I would totally abuse his lack of knowledge to suit my own ends.
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New cards of awesome: Gravity Sphere, Mystic Decree.
Let's let charisma take away ALL of the fun toys from everyone else!
I like the sphere. It's cheap, and has a single color cost. Mystic Decree stops some annoyances as well though. I got hit by a reanimated hasted Wrexial with doublestrike at one point, and he stole all my fun stuff, as he stole my extra combat and past in flames on one pass, hit me again and took my other extra combat and some darn nice draw, then hit me a third time (the jerk!) and exiled my two retrace spells. That was not a happy game. Going from 37 to 7, and losing all my toys made me not a happy person. This was quite a while ago though.
Otherwise, Compulsive Research stands out, being 3 cost for 2 cards at sorcery speed. I think there's better available.
After that, oddly enough, I would recommend Ponder simply on the basis of it being sorcery speed, or Peer through the depths because of the limitation on it.
Secrets doesn't replace itself, but usually kelpie doesn't either for me. If it eats removal, it's one that it's not coming back from. My meta might not be the most competitive, but removal for us means removed. We're heavy on the exile/tuck.
Secrets is also harder to remove. I may also be running a bit more flashback than you right now. Also, I really stress the retrace aspect.
I find that Oona's alone to be a bit subpar. Oona's + secret or kelpie is darn good. All 3 is stupidly good. Every land is an ancestral.
The main equipment you have that I'm not running is the Sword of Kaldra. The sword provides offensive boost, as well as strong removal... My problems with it when I ran it was the cost, and the threat.
Sword has such a high cost, and equip, that I often found it cumbersome. While I'd typically be able to exile one round of creatures, it immediately made me the number one threat, and T&L eat a ton of hate. I found that often I'd spend 8 mana, just to get my sword exiled in response to the equip.
Your mileage may vary.
1. Cast a bunch of random cantrips.
2. Cast Trade Secrets on any opponent.
3. Draw an obscene amount of cards.
4. Cast Cerebral Vortex targeting the same player.
5. Cast Ignite Memories on the rest of the players.
Make this 4 out of 4 times. Just played a game on Cockatrice.
I decided I'm going with the cantrippy flashback version of this deck with secrets, kelpie, etc. (maybe even burning vengeance!) with a couple storm finishers for good measure. Cost reducing mana rocka and such. Seems like the most synergistic and consistent way to get things done and I think I just have an unhealthy obsession with flashback. Eventually I'll probably get to post a list here.
Btw is Into the Roil better than Repeal? I'd say so. You get bigtime cost savings bouncing anything expensive. And I still think Chaos Warp beats them both as a way to deal with pesky permanents, even if it doesn't cantrip.
Btw is Into the Roil better than Repeal? I'd say so. You get bigtime cost savings bouncing anything expensive. And I still think Chaos Warp beats them both as a way to deal with pesky permanents, even if it doesn't cantrip.
I play both into the roil and chaos warp in my version....never dissatisfied
Great contributions all! And yeah, I don't know what I was thinking when I mentioned Charisma with Basilisk Collar yesterday. It was REALLY late.
IamChampion, I like the Ignite Memories idea a ton, and it's more on-theme with T&L than Temporal Fissure or Volcanic Awakening. The Sword of War and Peace is a nice inclusion as well, as it helps to protect T&L from itself and exile instants, as well as helping to potentially one-shot players after a group draw-fest! I wish I hadn't traded my copy! As has been noted, it does nullify red pump spells however.
This next suggestion might be superfluous, because we already have Seize the Day, but what about Fury of the Horde after you draw a ton of cards and have T&L equipped and evasive? It could be another way to one-shot multiple players if Seize the Day gets exiled or you don't have enough mana to flash it back. I know it's not that good because we'll rarely hardcast it and it's card disadvantage, but it just seems fun, and this deck does draw a ton of cards to allow for the alternate casting cost. It's just a thought.
Sorry about the lack of updates, I've been meaning to post my list, but things keep piling up. I'm also going to be twiddling with my list again when I get more than 5 minutes, because I like the addition of Frantic Search. I also want to add more artifact destruction for Grafdiggers cage, and I may replace my boots/anger with Reckless Charge and/or crimson wisps.
The boots always die, and anger eats a path/swords more often then not. On the flip side, I'm starting to consider something like Divert, which remains an undervalued card, I think.
I'm starting to question Ignorant bliss as well. It's a cute trick with the wheels, but sometimes I just wish it were straight up draw. That said, it's pretty safe from a cut. I still look forward to foiling an identity crisis with it.
Bob...I am bringing back Runechanter's Pike. I haven't decided what to drop yet but...I have switched our Quietus Spike in the mean time.
I am also going to keep my pike in. It's less flashy than the other options, but I find it to also still be more effective, even if I remove a lot of my graveyard.
Quietus Spike similarly didn't impress me much. People fear it a lot, but really, if we hit them, we want them dead. It fits much better in a more control-oriented T&L, where you use the red ability more to keep the ground clear, and probably don't focus up on storm and spells so much. I may someday try building that version, but right now it's not so appealing to me. =P
Archived in here somewhere is an old version of mine where I ran the whole complement of spiffy equipment. There are a lot of cool ideas in there if that's your style.
This next suggestion might be superfluous, because we already have Seize the Day, but what about Fury of the Horde after you draw a ton of cards and have T&L equipped and evasive? It could be another way to one-shot multiple players if Seize the Day gets exiled or you don't have enough mana to flash it back. I know it's not that good because we'll rarely hardcast it and it's card disadvantage, but it just seems fun, and this deck does draw a ton of cards to allow for the alternate casting cost. It's just a thought.
The only issue I have with Fury of the Horde is how hard it would be to flash back. Removing 2 cards is an alternate cost, as is flashback. If you give it flashback somehow, you have to pay the full mana cost. It could still be a useful add depending on your deck makeup.
Sorry about the lack of updates, I've been meaning to post my list, but things keep piling up. I'm also going to be twiddling with my list again when I get more than 5 minutes, because I like the addition of Frantic Search. I also want to add more artifact destruction for Grafdiggers cage, and I may replace my boots/anger with Reckless Charge and/or crimson wisps.
The boots always die, and anger eats a path/swords more often then not. On the flip side, I'm starting to consider something like Divert, which remains an undervalued card, I think.
I'm starting to question Ignorant bliss as well. It's a cute trick with the wheels, but sometimes I just wish it were straight up draw. That said, it's pretty safe from a cut. I still look forward to foiling an identity crisis with it.
Well with Faithless Looting, Wheel Effects, and Frantic Search it should be fairly easy to pitch anger from your hand. But cutting anger still might be a good idea...i really like the idea of adding crimson wisps
I too am on the fence with Ignorant Bliss, I almost always wish it was something else.
Since running sword of feast and famine, I think i'm going to put savage beating back into the deck...it's easy to put the untap trigger on the stack and have more than enough mana for SB
I'm still not super thrilled with my draw package....I think I should add Blue Sun's Zenith back into the deck (good with SoFaF), or maybe Recurring Insight
I'm also considering adding more r/u Duals because I want to run Cryptic Command it's amazing all around for the deck....maybe over dream fracture....it taps for the lethal kill, bounces a threat, counters and draws...aside from trips blue, it seems like a no brainer.
The boots always die, and anger eats a path/swords more often then not. On the flip side, I'm starting to consider something like Divert, which remains an undervalued card, I think.
I'm also considering adding more r/u Duals because I want to run Cryptic Command it's amazing all around for the deck....maybe over dream fracture....it taps for the lethal kill, bounces a threat, counters and draws...aside from trips blue, it seems like a no brainer.
I agree. Paying an extra U is worth it for the versatility that Cryptic Command offers.
I love Tibor and Lumia myself, and it seems Dark Ascension has a few new goodies for consideration! Mystic Retrieval seems perfect, as does Secrets of the Dead with all the Flashback and Retrace we run. Increasing Vengeance looks to be bonkers as well. You could flash it back with something as seemingly benign as Reckless Charge and all of a sudden (if T&L have flying) you've done 4 damage to all non-flyers and Tibor and Lumia are 12/3 flying haste!
Begin that sequence with an Artful Dodge and that could be enough for a knock-out blow if you've gotten in some early general beats. This deck is so fun to play!
Oh yeah, and Faithless Looting. :rolleyes::D Also, I know he's pricey, but would Snapcaster Mage be a shoe-in for this deck? We're already running Riptide Laboratory.
Artful Dodge - is a bit of a quandary for me. Already have Shadow Rift and Distortion Strike, and I debate the need of a 3rd. Distortion strike replays itself for free, which is nice, and also gives +1, which makes me like it a lot. Shadow Rift straight up cantrips, and I like that as well. Either way, Artful Dodge fits in with those two, and it comes down to where you place your added value for the cards, and which ones/how many you want to run.
Mystic Retrieval - seems a bit expensive. I like it conceptually, but I would run Recoup first (which is going in after I get my DKA cards). It has the value of being the best card in your graveyard, but at a steep extra cost. And needing a graveyard to begin with. I think this one will sit on the sidelines a bit, and see if I need another recoup.
Increasing Vengeance - I haven't run Fork in ages, but this one might make the cut, especially when I get to my new mana-rock direction.
Shattered Perception - Too expensive. I've toyed with the idea of a Winds of Change, and that might make it, but this comes strictly after winds.
Faithless Looting - This card alone made me wait for DKA to rebuild T&L again. This hinted at great promise for this set. I love this card.
===========
Snapcaster Mage - ah, the dilema. Yes, he is awesome, and fits our plan exceedingly well. Yes, he is disgusting with riptide lab. Yes, he is expensive and makes me cry. Yes, he has one toughness, and doesn't fly, which occasionally makes him a casualty of war.
If you can afford to run him, please do. I have a feeling he'll be awesome in all the ways that Charmbreaker Devils has disappointed me. Please let me know how he runs for you.
====
Lands, Mana Sources, and other stuff.
So, with this decks cheap draw, cantrips, and general ability to cycle through the library rather quickly, the major limiting resource is mana.
Some of the major issues I have noted so far playing the current incarnation of the deck:
1) Need more ways to get lands out. This isn't easy. I only know of two colorless methods, and thats the atlas, and the terrain generator. I am considering Deserted Temple to help out, but the generator is already highly mana intensive. Though it is always awesome with the Thawing Glaciers.
2) Also, I feel there are a few many lands that ETB tapped, or tap for colorless. Scrying Sheets keeps bouncing in and out, and I have to say, I think I've ever only used it once in this deck. Likewise with the Blinkmoth Nexus.
3) I've hinted/talked about this for a long time, but since the deck plays so many spells, the best mana rocks are the cost reducers. This is true for both this flashback version, as well as my hypothetical buyback version...
Here's the lineup:
2 helm of awakening
2 ruby medallion
2 sapphire medallion
5 Stone Calendar
6 Mana Matrix
The last two are harder to get out. The first tutor is likely to get a Helm of awakening. There are also a number of more effective mana rocks I could be using, and a better proportion of them.
The other advantage to running cost reducers, is it allows me to raise the overall mana curve of the deck a bit more. While cantrips and cheap draw will still be important, I can also add a few cards that draw more than a net of one: like inspiration, divination, Jace's Ingenuity, Concentrate, Distant Memories, etc.
I'm also starting to look at a few more good, cheap, defensive creatures. Unfortunately, my current game plan is to take a beating to an inch of my life, and then kill everyone. This isn't very productive I find. Some of the Jellyfish may work well in this role.
Overall, there are a lot of things I want to tweak in the deck, but I am afraid of doing too much at once, and changing how the core of the deck operates. There already are a number of cards available to cut, which have been under performing recently, so there's a starting block, but how far it goes remains to be seen.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
On the lands, I'd definitely try to drop most of the ones that CIPT. Also, Scrying Sheets uses 1 mana a turn in a deck where you need every last mana. I guess with the all the deck manipulation you'll hit snow more of the time than other decks; Top would help this as well, obviously. Blinkmoth Nexus could go too, though I guess you can pull a win out with it now and again when you get your equipment on the field.
A few cards I would consider: Muddle the Mixture as a tutor that fetches some key cards in this deck, including the killer equips like Runchanter's Pike, Empyrial Armor, Swiftfoot Boots and Leering Emblem. It also tutors for acceleration like Helm of Awakening, Walking Atlas, and the Medallions (and Snapcaster). Erayo could be fetched as well.
I'm sure you've considered it already, but Trinket Mage for Top and Basilisk Collar seems good. I know your deck is a cantrip machine, but Top filtering seems like it could only help. I've got other suggestions, but I'm too tired to type coherently right now. Tomorrow!
I do like the manlands, as they up my creature count in an otherwise very creature light deck, especially the flyers. It comes down to the colorless mana though. If I replace it with another manland, I would choose faerie conclave, even though it ETB tapped.
I think Spinerock Knoll is the final big offender. There is very little worth putting behind it in this deck.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Plus the fact that it can be really tough to trigger it yourself so you might also be working it off of opponents triggers a lot... Ya I would cut that from the list.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
1) Your decklist is awesome! Very unique for EDH. You've killed a lot of sacred cows with this and I can't wait to try it out. Flame Jab and River Kelpie? YES PLZ. I tend to have problems with cutting popular goodstuff staples and this will give me a chance to do that because...
2) I just bought a bunch of these cards to play with. Granted it was only 20 bucks' worth and I may have accidentally bought some I didn't need based on some comments on this page, but yeah. I'll be sure to come back here with ideas and such after I try it out, hopefully this weekend.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
It's wacky, it's fun, and it does a mind-boggling amount of nothing, and then kills someone.
I actually just rebuilt the deck last night, pulling out a lot of the more expensive cards (mana wise and price wise), but it was late so I didn't get to update the OP as I wanted.
There are still a bunch of cards I want to try out, and I feel as if I need a lot more artifact removal now that Grafdigger's Cage has been printed, but hey, that just means that's the first person to die.
The new Secrets of the Dead just made the whole river kelpie thing explode. Flashback as a theme has been greatly increased.
for #2, one of the things I like about this deck is how easy it is to build it on a budget. The equipment in general is not expensive, and that's the major current theme. Getting T&L to 21 power is actually surprisingly easy. Savage Beating has actually been removed for being overkill. Cheap blue cantrippy spells are easy to find as well. I'm still of the opinion that this deck would be really evil as a Niv deck, but T&L seem so innocuous and innocent. Also, they drop so much sooner.
A quick spoileresque rundown:
Secrets - duh.
Artful dodge - Made it in. After thinking about it a bit, the +1 off of the rebound spell isn't really needed in this deck, and an extra U is worth the cost of controlling the second cast. Also, flashback baby!
Mystic Retrieval - did not make it yet. Recoup is now in, we'll see if it's a player.
Increasing - not in. A tad expensive, I think it could go in fairly well to copy some of the card draw spells, but I didn't open one, =P
Shattered Perception - Winds of change didn't make it either. Tolarian winds did though, as its an instant. Windfall also, since I might gain cards off of it.
Faithless - yeah, I likes it. Oh no! Two cards with flashback just fell into my graveyard! Oh the horror!
In. Well, except for memory crystal, obviously. I actually cut lands in favor of more rocks. Since blue/red can't really ramp, I've decided to actually try lowering my land count, and trying the rock route. Catalyst Stone isn't in yet, since I forgot to set it aside. I don't know where it is. I expect it to replace the ruby medallion, my red isn't very heavy in here.
Concentrate was already in, inspiration added, Jace's Ingenuity to be added soon. I like me some draw. I don't really like the UU though. Divination is a sideways glance, I prefer instant draw, Distant Memories in retrospect just sucks. If it exiled face down, that'd be cool as a mind trick, but short of exiling something cool, I don't see it doing very much. Also takes UU.
2 are added. We'll see how well they work.
EDIT: Oh, I also added Snap (which was a long time coming, really, my gosh I've been lazy on that one), which is even more awesome now with cost reducers ( a little at least), and Turnabout. While I haven't put in any infinite mana combos, (and I won't; but you can if that's your thing), a surprise mana increase can be pretty cool I think.
====================================
So. The new card of the day (which isn't in yet, but has a slot reserved once I find it (wasn't in my binder )) is Quicken.
I'll let that one stew for a bit.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I do like cutting savage beating it's just too expensive
Cards I'm considering:
A pet card of mine is radiate I killed a table the other day by radiating a fire/ice to tap down the board eot and swing in with a 46 power empyrial plated tibor and lumia with seize the dayx2
My version is starting to feel like an old Psychatog deck but manic
Either of them with retrace is just sooooo good... It is a cute engine though, and not at all necessary, I just like the way it plays out, and can turn lands into advantage.
If you do cut them, either cut Oona's Grace, or replace it with Trade routes. 3 mana to cycle a land (though it does power up the equipments) is a bit harsh.
Yeah, it's good, but always seemed kind of extra... and I've never really been terribly happy to see it.
I don't like repeal as much, Frantic Search is great, I may need to run one... Depending on what you want from it, yiou may find Gitaxian probe to be good.
I think I need a copy of the wisps also now. I keep forgetting about that one. Be careful with it, as you must use Psychotic Fury before the wisps due to the color changing effect.
=================
I annoyed my brother in a game last night due to an excessively long turn. Khemba had attacked me with 9 6/6 pegasus tokens, and had 4 cats out defensively. I managed to survive the attack by flinging Khemba at one of the tokens, and blocking as necessary, but sitting at 3 life with little board position and 3 cards in hand wasn't happy. Khemba was at 40+. My brother, with Sliver Queen, had an O-Stone out, and wasn't worried.
Of course, those cards were River Kelpie, Spellweaver Volute (no, it doesn't trigger the kelpie, I know, but it remains disgusting anyways), and a Recoup; and I had a number of cost reducers on the field, and a Secrets of the dead
Volute + Kelpie + Flame jab, remains one of the most disgusting things ever (Kelpie got plowshared though ). Volute targeted a windfall, Recoup targets Wheel of fortune, Volute casts the windfall, imprints a Vision Skeins, get 9 cards off the wind fall (yeah, Kemba had a Mind's Eye), flash back the wheel, Skeins goes off, we draw 2, then titch hands and draw 7, I imprint a Cerebral Vortex on the Volute, find an equipment, have dumped Anger in my graveyard, oh, and I found myself a turnabout. And a Mana Matrix. Long story short, I one shotted Khemba. Due to a play mistake (my god so many triggers!), I died to SQ the next turn, but I should have had that game in the bag so many ways, but I was being pressured to hurry up.
Have you any idea how silly and yet satisfying Turnabout + Spellweaver Volute is? How about when all instants and sorceries you play cost 3 less, and blue spells by another 1?
Also, despite wasting my entire hand + mana that turn to kill Khemba, (which made SQ feel safe), the Past in Flames in my GY meant that even with the O-Stone killing all my stuff, SQ was dead my following turn. (If I hadn't messed up, oh, about a bazillion times. (one of which was I had forgotten to keep track of Paradise plume (set to blue) triggers, which alone would have put me out of death range. Between Volute, turnabout, and Oona's Grace, I should have gained at least 15-20 life. I attacked with a 20+ T&L, and I found my leering emblem rather late in that chain so there was +10 there, +T&L, +volute, +kelpie, +2x turnabout, +windfall, skeins, cerebral vortex, so that's 19, ignoring the rest of my card burn for 2 sets of mana... yeah, I should have been pretty high in life.)...
Awesome game.
The following game I died rather quickly, as apparently the capability to one-shot a 40+ life player, who has the capability to crank out 5-6 5/5 flyers and 3-4 7/7 cats per turn, from no board position and no life is apparently threatening...
So my dream remains to quicken a Past in Flames, just FYI.
As for Mystic Retrieval... I'm starting to like it a bit more. I was really feeling the sorcery-only limitation on recoup last night, though that's nice with Volute. I do like a lot the lower cost of recoup though, as well as that its based in red, and red mana can be expendable at times, more so than blue.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Hey have you thought about Mana Geyser? I'm sure you would go off pretty consistently with it...
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
First, let me say that you are probably right, and that Flame Jab alone will probably make it amazing. Especially since, as I continue to repeat myself, mana is the most needed resource for this deck.
Now as to my deep-seated hate:
1) It adds only red. No matter how much I want blue, it just doesn't want to let me draw cards.
2) It's a sorcery, no spiffy tricks or whatnot, no extra mana on opponents turn if I need to make things dead. (exempting the awesomeness that is Quicken.
3) Finally, it depends on my opponents. While I have run it to success in the past, the dependence on the opponents makes me die a bit inside, especially since a lot of players in my group play reactively.
All of these are fairly minor, and I probably should put it back in, especially since now I have all the cost reducers. They make a world of difference. It really makes it almost a whole new deck.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Great deck by the way. Very creative.
Edit: Your original post doesn't seem to reflect many of the changes that you have been talking about. Most notably Rhystic Study is still listing. Would you please post an updated list?
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
All of these are very good suggestions, and I love Visions of Beyond in this deck. It can easily be Ancestral Recall. Also, if we're going for most of the "untap X lands" suite and are running tons of one-mana spells and cards like Helm of Awakening to make the others even cheaper, I feel like the deck really must include at least one storm spell, and for me that would be Temporal Fissure. Now believe me, the main way I want to win with this deck is with Tibor and Lumia themselves, but when you chain even as few as 5 spells (cake for this deck), Fissure will bounce 6 lands and really shut down one player. A total storm board-bounce shouldn't be hard.
On a similar note, I love the Radiate on Fire / Ice for the mega tap-down.
I'm hesitant on Repeal though, because with the evasion tools this deck has, getting general damage through shouldn't be hard (Repeal could help in this), but I can also see it being useful getting rid of stuff like Ensnaring Bridge and problem enchantments like Faith's Fetters on T&L. The cantrip rules as well. Now I'm feeling like adding it. Looking at the first page, it coud easily replace Repulse.
bob, I'm waiting to Quicken good ole' Past in Flames as well. To that instant-speed end, Winding Canyons and Leyline of Anticipation seem good. Teferi maybe as well, but that's getting more controllish. I just love casting stuff like Stitch in Time EOT, especially if you've got Izzet Chronarch handy. I know this stuff increases the mana-curve, so take it with a grain of salt. I just love Chronarch, and he's :symu::symr: to boot.
Lastly, I'm going to remention Basilisk Collar. It's just the best thing ever with Charisma, and one of the deadliest cards for generals like T&L, Niv, Kumano, and Olivia.
I love this deck!
Here is my version of the deck.
1 Tibor and Lumia
Lands: 40
1 Academy Ruins
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Command Tower
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Strip Mine
1 Temple of the False Gods
1 Terrain Generator
1 Vesuva
1 Wasteland
13 Island
9 Mountain
Mana Acceleration: 4
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Izzet Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
Card Draw / Tutor: 23
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brainstorm
1 Desperate Ravings
1 Fabricate
1 Faithless Looting
1 Future Sight
1 Gamble
1 Impulse
1 Long-Term Plans
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystic Retrieval
1 Oona's Grace
1 Past in Flames
1 Recoup
1 Rhystic Study
1 Secrets of the Dead
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Spiral
1 Trade Secrets
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 River Kelpie
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Enhancement: 7
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Charisma
1 Diviner's Wand
1 Empyrial Plate
1 Leer Emblem
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Sword of War and Peace
Combat Steps: 2
1 Savage Beating
1 Seize the Day
Utility: 7
1 Cerebral Vortex
1 Distortion Strike
1 Ignite Memories
1 Mind Games
1 Psychotic Fury
1 Reiterate
1 Whim of Volrath
Counterspells: 4
1 Arcane Denial
1 Cryptic Command
1 Remand
1 Swerve
Removal: 8
1 Capsize
1 Chaos Warp
1 Electrolyze
1 Flame Jab
1 Mogg Infestation
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Repulse
1 Shattering Pulse
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I envy your Academy Ruins.
I love you for adding Ignite Memories... That card is seriously awesome. I also like Timespiral, that looks like a strong addition to the deck. Wish I had one =P.
If you're running Future Sight, then Sensei's Divining Top is a strong include as well. I'm also going to toss another recommendation for Secrets of the dead as another backup kelpie.
I think there's a lot I can take from the structure of your deck. It feels weird looking at it, I see the core of my deck, but I also see a very different personality to it, especially with the larger equipment package you're currently running. I actually also have to agree with most of it, Runecaster's pike is impressing me a bit less currently, despite being one of the initial cards that led me to build this aggro version.
Leering Emblem has played like a boss for me though.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I agree with you on the Sensei's Divining Top. Which draw spell would you recommend cutting in favor of Sensei's Divining Top? I am a little skeptical of Secrets of the Dead. It draws me a few cards...but just not nearly enough. The reason why I like River Kelpie is...he is almost always going to replace himself at the absolute worst. Secrets of the Dead requires an additional card just to break even. I will admit that it is bonkers with Past in Flames.
You definitely deserve all the credit for the idea of the deck...I just added my two cents. Runecaster's Pike works alongside so many cards that make it bad. Past in Flames, all Flashback, all buyback...I just couldn't get it to pull its weight consistantly.
I can see this being a powerhouse. The problem that I see though is that it is competing with Charisma in my list. There isn't any more room for more enhancement...so that is definetly the section that would need to be cut from. The fact that you steal every creature on the board at will with Charisma + any red spell...is just too powerful to pass up on. I guess maybe it could compete with Empyrial Plate...but a consistant +7/+7 seems kind of hard to top. What do you think?
You had said in your original post that you pulled Trade Secrets out of the deck because of nutty plays...I really think that you should reconsider. All 3 of my tester games has ended in the following way:
1. Cast a bunch of random cantrips.
2. Cast Trade Secrets on any opponent.
3. Draw an obscene amount of cards.
4. Cast Cerebral Vortex targeting the same player.
5. Cast Ignite Memories on the rest of the players.
You can deal an absurd amount of damage and probably clear the table...I have done this exact play 3 out of 3 times testing this deck.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I think I talked about it briefly in one of the earlier pages, if not, I had with some of my playgroup. I think it's awesome. I never put it in before, because I was waiting for the reducers, and then it slipped my mind. I'm really happy to see someone playing it though.
Personally, I would cut Rhystic Study, but that's because my meta never lets me draw cards. They know me too well. Also, it's passive draw, rather than active. When you're actively burning through your library it does nothing, and if you need it to refill your hand because someone Identity Crisised you... That's when no one lets you draw cards.
I know that otherwise it's a very powerful card, and a lot of metas will just let you draw cards, since, dear god you have them all already anyways...
Otherwise, Compulsive Research stands out, being 3 cost for 2 cards at sorcery speed. I think there's better available.
After that, oddly enough, I would recommend Ponder simply on the basis of it being sorcery speed, or Peer through the depths because of the limitation on it.
Secrets doesn't replace itself, but usually kelpie doesn't either for me. If it eats removal, it's one that it's not coming back from. My meta might not be the most competitive, but removal for us means removed. We're heavy on the exile/tuck.
Secrets is also harder to remove. I may also be running a bit more flashback than you right now. Also, I really stress the retrace aspect.
I find that Oona's alone to be a bit subpar. Oona's + secret or kelpie is darn good. All 3 is stupidly good. Every land is an ancestral.
Since every spell that flashes back is just used to gain more advantage, I usually find I don't mind it if I lose some bonus from the pike for that, but I do find it to be much harder to pump up than the other equipment. I also don't like the omission of toughness on it. First Strike is cool, but doesn't make up for it. I will probably replace it with the plate, and add consistency to my list.
The same could be said to a degree with Wheel of Fortune vs. empyrial plate, how it resets you hand and you lose bonus.
I am currently not running plate (not for any good reason though). Between the two, I actually think the Emblem the stronger in this deck. It is very easy to go past +7/+7 with it. That said, I think both are deserving of slots.
I would not have it compete with Charisma, they serve completely different roles.
The main equipment you have that I'm not running is the Sword of Kaldra. The sword provides offensive boost, as well as strong removal... My problems with it when I ran it was the cost, and the threat.
Sword has such a high cost, and equip, that I often found it cumbersome. While I'd typically be able to exile one round of creatures, it immediately made me the number one threat, and T&L eat a ton of hate. I found that often I'd spend 8 mana, just to get my sword exiled in response to the equip.
Your mileage may vary.
That's hilarious. I find Trade Secrets to be a cute trick like that, and it does give you at least 4 cards, but it seems to be one of those cards that just makes the game end, and definitely makes someone a king otherwise.
It also just hurts to see the faces of the other 3 people at the table fall, because the one poor fool I chose doesn't realize he's signing their death warrants.
While most of my group have learned to not repeat it, I can see a new player coming in and I would totally abuse his lack of knowledge to suit my own ends.
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New cards of awesome: Gravity Sphere, Mystic Decree.
Let's let charisma take away ALL of the fun toys from everyone else!
Also, Adarkar Windform, Phyrexian Splicer, Vertigo as honorable mentions.
I like the sphere. It's cheap, and has a single color cost. Mystic Decree stops some annoyances as well though. I got hit by a reanimated hasted Wrexial with doublestrike at one point, and he stole all my fun stuff, as he stole my extra combat and past in flames on one pass, hit me again and took my other extra combat and some darn nice draw, then hit me a third time (the jerk!) and exiled my two retrace spells. That was not a happy game. Going from 37 to 7, and losing all my toys made me not a happy person. This was quite a while ago though.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Yeah you are probably right.
Fair enough. I think this is a valid point.
Phyrexian Splicer is one of the strangest worded cards I have ever seen.
My adjustments to the deck.
+ Leer Emblem
+ Sensei's Divining Top
+ Secret's of the Dead
- Sword of Kaldra
- Ponder
- Compulsive Research
Make this 4 out of 4 times. Just played a game on Cockatrice.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
Btw is Into the Roil better than Repeal? I'd say so. You get bigtime cost savings bouncing anything expensive. And I still think Chaos Warp beats them both as a way to deal with pesky permanents, even if it doesn't cantrip.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I play both into the roil and chaos warp in my version....never dissatisfied
Btw ever radiate a chaos warp ?
here's my list:
1 Tibor and Lumia
Creatures: 8
1 Kiln Fiend
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Wee Dragonauts
1 Anger
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Charmbreaker Devils
Draw/Search/Manipulation: 17
1 Faithless Looting
1 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
1 Visions of Beyond
1 Gamble
1 Impulse
1 Ignorant Bliss
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Peer Through Depths
1 Long-Term Plans
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Cerebral Vortex
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Concentrate
1 Memory Jar
1 Future Sight
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Izzet Signet
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Paradise Plume
Combat: 7
1 Reckless Charge
1 Seething Anger
1 Distortion Strike
1 Shadow Rift
1 Psychotic Fury
1 Mind Games
1 Seize the Day
Equipment: 7
1 Leering Emblem
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Empyrial Plate
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Diviner's Wand
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Charisma
Removal: 10
1 Fire/Ice
1 Electrolyze
1 Chaos Warp
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Repulse
1 Into the Roil
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Prophetic Bolt
1 Mogg Infestation
1 Grab the Reins
1 Arcane Denial
1 Dream Fracture
Misc: 5
1 Reconstruction
1 Reality Ripple
1 Mystic Retrieval
1 Past in Flames
1 Radiate
13 Island
10 Mountain
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Shinka, Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Terrain Generator
1 Strip Mine
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Labratory
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Buried Ruin
IamChampion, I like the Ignite Memories idea a ton, and it's more on-theme with T&L than Temporal Fissure or Volcanic Awakening. The Sword of War and Peace is a nice inclusion as well, as it helps to protect T&L from itself and exile instants, as well as helping to potentially one-shot players after a group draw-fest! I wish I hadn't traded my copy! As has been noted, it does nullify red pump spells however.
This next suggestion might be superfluous, because we already have Seize the Day, but what about Fury of the Horde after you draw a ton of cards and have T&L equipped and evasive? It could be another way to one-shot multiple players if Seize the Day gets exiled or you don't have enough mana to flash it back. I know it's not that good because we'll rarely hardcast it and it's card disadvantage, but it just seems fun, and this deck does draw a ton of cards to allow for the alternate casting cost. It's just a thought.
Any updates or thoughts on this?
Funny short story. I was playing against a Karn, Silver Golem and Sen Triplets. I crushed Karn with a a flood of equipment on Tibor and Lumia. Then I baited Sen Triplets into drawing a ton of cards off Rhystic Study with Thought Reflection in play...and then cast Cerebral Vortex for a ton of damage.
Bob...I am bringing back Runechanter's Pike. I haven't decided what to drop yet but...I have switched our Quietus Spike in the mean time.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
The boots always die, and anger eats a path/swords more often then not. On the flip side, I'm starting to consider something like Divert, which remains an undervalued card, I think.
I'm starting to question Ignorant bliss as well. It's a cute trick with the wheels, but sometimes I just wish it were straight up draw. That said, it's pretty safe from a cut. I still look forward to foiling an identity crisis with it.
Did you have something specific? If it's about the changes you made, they look to be quite good. Leering Emblem remains my favorite equipment in here.
If you can get your hands on a Helm of Awakening, it turns the Futuresight + clamp from disgusting to downright obscene (infinite draw).
Nobody expects the vortex!
I am also going to keep my pike in. It's less flashy than the other options, but I find it to also still be more effective, even if I remove a lot of my graveyard.
Quietus Spike similarly didn't impress me much. People fear it a lot, but really, if we hit them, we want them dead. It fits much better in a more control-oriented T&L, where you use the red ability more to keep the ground clear, and probably don't focus up on storm and spells so much. I may someday try building that version, but right now it's not so appealing to me. =P
Archived in here somewhere is an old version of mine where I ran the whole complement of spiffy equipment. There are a lot of cool ideas in there if that's your style.
The only issue I have with Fury of the Horde is how hard it would be to flash back. Removing 2 cards is an alternate cost, as is flashback. If you give it flashback somehow, you have to pay the full mana cost. It could still be a useful add depending on your deck makeup.
Cards I wish were on-color:
Manamorphose
Forbidden Alchemy
Ancient Grudge
RAAAAAGE
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Well with Faithless Looting, Wheel Effects, and Frantic Search it should be fairly easy to pitch anger from your hand. But cutting anger still might be a good idea...i really like the idea of adding crimson wisps
I too am on the fence with Ignorant Bliss, I almost always wish it was something else.
Since running sword of feast and famine, I think i'm going to put savage beating back into the deck...it's easy to put the untap trigger on the stack and have more than enough mana for SB
I'm still not super thrilled with my draw package....I think I should add Blue Sun's Zenith back into the deck (good with SoFaF), or maybe Recurring Insight
I'm also considering adding more r/u Duals because I want to run Cryptic Command it's amazing all around for the deck....maybe over dream fracture....it taps for the lethal kill, bounces a threat, counters and draws...aside from trips blue, it seems like a no brainer.
Other cards I've halfway thought about:
Pulse of the Grid
and
- Meditate
- Final Fortune
and it's variantsBecause I really want to go with an All In approach with this deck....
I agree. Paying an extra U is worth it for the versatility that Cryptic Command offers.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen