This is one of the biggest questions I get. Why Tibor and Lumia as far as they go, even I have to admit they are comparatively weak to other 4 cost generals. Olivia Voldaren alone is equal in stature, has flying by default, and still does damage to whichever targets you want, and has a devastating extra ability. Jenara, likewise, is another powerful 3/3 flyer for cheaper. What makes Tibor and Lumia so special?
I have always been partial to the blue/red pairing. Early on, one of my favorite archetypes was a traditional counter/burn deck. Tibor and Lumia is one of the earliest EDH decks I built; vying with Nemata and Vaevictis, shortly after my Cromat deck. I chose Tibor and Lumia over other blue/red generals (notably Niv-Mizzet, who I jokingly claim T&L would rather be) for several reasons:
Whereas Niv really characterizes the unity of both colors, in turning draw into damage, he feels more like a red general playing blue spells to me. T&L showed me instead a general who still wants to cast spells, but would interact more with the board in general, and would need a combination of both spell colors to really shine.
Blue and Red are the two worst colors for mana acceleration. Blue gets a bit of help from its illicit affair with artifacts, but that really pales in comparison to every other color: Thus, I aimed for a cheaper general.
Niv is done to death, and has too many "I win" combos that just steal the thunder away from the Johnny in me. It's not about the combo for me... it's about doing stuff, and T&L is happy to comply.
What it really comes down to is that T&L is cheap enough to matter, has no definitive easily foreseen gameplan to be a threat with, isn't a massive combo target, and does stuff, without taking up your mana, letting you do more stuff. What it really comes down to, is that Tibor and Lumia is fun.
What you could do with T&L
The first version of this deck was much more good stuff. I then modified it with a clear goal of attempting to deck myself in EDH, using a lot of card draw and cantrips, while I have come close, I have not yet actually managed this feat. Sphinx-Bone Wand and Cast through Time made prominent appearances in the deck after the volume of spells I could play became evident. This is one way to abuse slinging multiple spells. I fount it a bit too fragile.
Another option for T&L aspirers is to focus on the red ability. The capability to burn the ground is very powerful, couple it with powerful equipment/auras like Charisma or Sword of Kaldra and you have a threat to reckon with. This build lends itself to a very strong control approach, using red to inflict pain, keep your enemies under control, with support from blue for the stack war and protection.
Another take on the red option, is to run repercussion/Mog Maniac type effects (though not the maniac himself, he's not so good with T&L). Other notable ones are Stuffy Doll (which you can clone) and Coal hauler swine.
Yet another option goes in the other direction again. Focus on the blue side of the twins: Run small utility "on connect" creatures like Surrakar Spellblade, or Kukemssa pirates. Use the flying ability to ensure they connect. Mystic Decree and gravity sphere work well in both of these color-specific versions, as does Phyrexian Splicer.
The last option, is quite surprisingly a combination of the two decks above, as well as the current version. Gelectrode and Cinder Pyromancer as well as another untapper with Quicksilver Dagger also plays well with a large number of instant/sorceries, as well as all the controlling equipments. Curiosity and Ophidian Eye then make a close approximation to a cheaper (mana cost) Niv-Mizzet type combo (without actually being boring). It's an extra way to gain cantrips off of your massive spell slinging.
This Version
Rather than focus directly on T&L abilities, this version focuses on the power of blue and red: the two colors best able to fight on the stack. As such, the decks main weapons are in its instants and sorceries, creating spell chains of immense advantage, to bury your opponents under sheer quantity of cards. The deck capitalizes on blues love of artifacts to use equipment such as Runechanter's Pike and Leering Emblem to further take advantage of the spell slinging. T&L fits this strategy by providing a cheap evasive general, with relevant abilities to trigger off of the spell-slinging.
Other Decks!
TheEndIsNear has posted his Storm Combo version, with a higher emphasis on mana rocks to get the early mana needed to fuel cheap spells. Also includes a fair set of 'free' spells.
Flashback: Reusability is good. Flashback also gives extra uses of spells for activating T&L's abilites. Once of the first graveyard combo pairs that was added into the deck was River Kelpie + Flame Jab. When you can successfully flamejab and wipe the board of 7/7 Essence of the Wilds... You know something is going right. The printing of Past in Flames simply sealed the deal. Giving your cantrips flashback turns them into powerful draw spells. Giving your powerful draw spells flashback makes them... um. Awesome.
Storm: As with any deck that plays a lot of spells, storm raises its hand suggestively. Many spells simply are underwhelming though, while others are ridiculously powerful. While I personally do not run some of the more powerful spells, (see notable exclusions), Ignite Memories makes a very stylistic and powerful addition to the deck. While it can be hard to call 1 card a theme, if you play the deck, you'll really appreciate just how many cards simply say: "Play more stuff!"
Cost Reductions: With the number of spells this deck plays, it quickly became evident that single use mana rocks were simply ineffecient compared to what could be used. Plus, its delightfully fun to mess with power curves of the mana costs, especially when you start to mix in the Urza's bloc 'free' spells that untap lands. Such delight.
Playing the Deck
Step 1: Draw cards.
Step 2: When you have a full hand of cards, Draw more cards.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Draw cards.
That is exactly how the deck plays out; the goal is to stick one of the awesome equipment on T&L. To get them, you draw cards until you get them, once you have one of them, you draw more cards to make them stronger. Somewhere in there you attack and kill someone. Mostly you look impressive by doing lots of stuff, most of which doesn't do much except let you do more stuff. The fact that some of your stuff does stuff while you do stuff is inconsequential. Until you kill someone with your stuff.
Spellweaver Volute
A card so awesome, it gets its dedicated paragraph.
In a deck where playing spells is good, and volume of spells is great, and running lots of instants is awesome... replaying them all for free is simply sheer brilliance.
The obvious all star here, is Flame Jab, allowing you to suddenly replay any instant you choose, for the simple cost of R.
So here are the fun things to note: The Volute enchants (and attaches) to an instant card in a graveyard. Yes, that means anybodies grave yard. You can cast other peoples cool spells; something I had not been entirely aware of before.
The Volute creates a copy of the card then casts the copy. Many people may groan at the creating a copy part, but here are the important distinctions:
It casts the copy - This was the original reason this made it into the deck for me. Casting a spell does trigger your Leering Emblem, Paradise plume, and does count for storm; it does not create the copy on the stack.
The copy it creates is created in the graveyard. This is another one I initially played wrong. The copy is cast from the graveyard. Your River Kelpiewill trigger off of this. Your Secrets of the dead and Burning Vengeance will trigger if it was enchanting a card in your graveyard.
Tibor and Lumia - A cheap aggressive general, who can give themselves evasion on the cheap, as well as handle threats on the ground. Inherently good against token swarms. Have been a bit overshadowed by their more recent rivals, Jenara, Asura of War, and Olivia Voldaren, yet because of this hold a strength in surprise and in their colors. Whereas Jenara and Olivia require some amount of mana dedicated to themselves, T&L's abilities fire off as a consequence of other actions. This allows the deck to be much faster than its rival generals.
Instants Shadow Rift - Instant speed evasion. For almost all practical purposes, shadow = unblockable, especially when flying as well. While there is no inherent flashback, the cantrip is nice. Mind Games - Repeatable blue spell for a source of flying, and able to open otherwise closed attack routes. Do note that it taps things other than creatures, shutting down problematic mana sources or mazes prior to your turn/attack is very useful. Skred - Burn baby burn. This is red's best single mana removal spell in this format. Quicken - Technically in trial phase, this synergies with a lot of the deck. With 15 sorceries, and a built in cantrip, this is never a dead draw. Flashing back a Past in Flames for a blowout counterspell action is also very strong. Snap - Good creature bounce, that happens to be 'free.' With the spell reductions I run, it tends to generate mana for me. A good way to go off sooner. Reality Ripple - My secret gem of a card, it answers anything, or saves whatever you want. It answers almost anything for the mere cost of 1U. Psychotic Fury - Double Strikes our T&L for a quick kill, and cantrips in red. Awesome! Ignorant Bliss - Saves our hands from enemy removal (rarely), or more often from our own wheels. Turns any wheel effect into pure advantage. Echoing Truth - Blue bounce that hits non-creatures. This is how you deal with problematic enchantments. Side effect of being effective against tokens, if you can't deal with them with T&L for some reason. Frantic Search - See snap. Card filtration/draw, that is 'free.' Oona's Grace - On its own, it cycles lands for 2U. Nothing terribly awesome. As soom as you turn it into advantage with a Kelpie/Secrets of the dead, it starts to shine. If you reduce the cost, it positively glows. Turning all your lands into Ancestral Recall has never been cooler. Repulse - Instant speed answer, with a cantrip! Long-Term Plans - Tutoring power. Cerebral Vortex - Can be used on opponents EoT as an instant speed draw 2. Otherwise it punishes card drawers, or whoever you want when you chain wheels. Chaos Warp - Reds answer all. Turnabout - Generates absurd amounts of mana. This is one of those cards that was practically a mistake to print. You can also use it to shut out one player's defense if needed. Inspiration - Drawing cards is cool. Fact of Fiction - Drawing lots of cards is even cooler. Overblaze - Can boost T&L with a double damage, akin to Psychotic Fury, but shines as it also doubles T&L tremor ability, as well as being able to stack multiple times for insane damage. Plagiarize - Currently testing, it's an evil blowout with wheel effects, and is brutal with anyone abusing card draw. Do not cast versus a Sphinx player. (should probably be Jace's Ingenuity, but I can't find one atm.) Flash of Insight - Blue draw/search, with an easy flashback cost.
---- Vex - counter (disputed by others) Arcane Denial - counter + card advantage Dream Fracture - counter + card advantage
Sorceries Artful Dodge - Unblockable for 2 uses, flashback also synergies with the rest of the deck. Spot used to be held by Distortion Strike, which is good in its own way, but this fits better for the deck. Flame Jab - A true allstar in the deck: the river kelpie/secrets of the dead combo allows you to chain multiples off at a time. Gamble - tutor Faithless Looting - filtration with a flashback. Merchant Scroll - tutor Fabricate - tutor Windfall - wheel effect Wheel of Fortune - wheel Mystic Retrieval - Returns more spells for you to play. Essentially card advantage. Deep Analysis - Drawing cards is awesome! Concentrate - Repeated! Seize the Day - Our glorious combat trick to eliminate multiple opponents in a single turn. Because once you kill one person in a single hit, others get worried. Past in Flames - When this card was printed, this deck really cranked it into overdrive. This allows about 40% of the deck to be reused. Typically the turn you cast this, you win. Ignite Memories - When casting lots of spells, anything that takes advantage of that is pretty cool. Not only does this lay serious pain on someone, it does it with style. Time Spiral - (trial) Fits under the wheel/draw 7 idea, as well as generating more mana. I have some concern over losing my graveyard, as that's my goto for quick answers, especially if some spells are already exiled, as that would dilute the spell-nonspell ratio of the deck. Still, it was a broken card once, I don't see why that would end now.
Creatures Walking Atlas - Mana acceleration (while he lasts). Getting going in the early game is crucial. Guard Gomazoa - I'm trying out the 2 jellyfish as early deterrents. Updates to come. Gomazoa Anger - haste. River Kelpie - Oh sweet awesome the draw.
Artifacts Swiftfoot Boots - haste/hexproof/awesome (greaves prevents you from giving T&L flying, as well as other self buff spells, like psychotic fury) Leering Emblem - Oh sweet heaven, this is responsible for many a blowout. With only 2 spells it makes T&L a 7/7, which is a 3 hit kill. For two more, at 11/11 is 2 hit, which happens to work well with psychotic fury, Overblaze and Carpe Diem. Runechanter's Pike - You may think this doesn't work well with flashback, but let me educate you: Every spell you flashback gets you more cards. More cards means more spells to play, which means more spells in the graveyard. It's cool. Don't trust me on this, just try it. Diviner's Wand - Auto equips to T&L, and a wheel effect alone puts T&L in kill zone (1 card for your turn, +7 off of wheel puts T&L up to an 11/11. Add Overblaze/Double Strike, etc = dead opponent)
---- Wayfarer's Bauble - ramp Sol Ring - rock Izzet Signet - rock Darksteel Ingot - non-dying rock Paradise Plume - rock that gains sick absurd amounts of life.
---- helm of Awakening - cheap Sapphire Medallion - cheap for me Catalyst Stone - cheaper for me sometimes Stone Calendar - cheap for me for everything Mana Matrix - I'm a cheapskate
Planeswalker Tezzeret the Seeker - searchy stuff, or untap the mana stuff you have.
---- LANDS
12 Snow-Covered Mountain
12 Snow-Covered Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Temple of the False God
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Buried Ruin
1 Academy Ruins
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Terrain Generator
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
Trade Secrets - an all-star card in this deck; sadly it is a one-stop-shop for degenerate situations if you target the right player, often ending in "you win now, or they win on their turn" type of plays. Crucible of Worlds - The retrace spells absolutely beg for this; and yet it never makes the final cut. It is always just 1 card away. Trade Routes - Another card that retrace loves, it is a bit more of a suicidal approach. Very strong, but eventually I found it to really be just on par. Great, but not necessary. Empyrial Plate - For a deck that loves to draw cards, this is another great equipment for an aggressive build. Overall, I felt that 3 equipment served the job plenty fine, and oddly, I found this one to be the one hardest to charge up to lethal (though gives the best permanent return as well). Surrakar Spellblade and friends - Great cards, goes for a different version of the deck. ;-P (imagine a blue cantrip theme with "on connect" creatures like Kukemsa Pirates, using T&L's blue ability as free connection tool) Radiate - A beastly monster of a card, this can do so much, though you never know game to game what it will do. Further in this thread, one advocate of this card used it to Reality Ripple everything during an opponents end step, so he was the only one with permanents. No blockers, no counterspell mana... Seems like a cool way to win to me. Reckless Charge - Probably the only place you will ever see this card on a Notable Exclusions list. I still need to wrangle one into my deck, extra haste sources allow that blowout kill from anywhere, and built in pump as well as flashback make this a no-brainer.
POWERFUL STORM CARDS: Volcanic Awakening - Powerful land destruction. Temporal Fissure - Powerful bounce. Mind's Desire - More of everything.
To put storm spells in perspective, I have hit over 30 spells in a turn before. I believe I have hit over 40.
If you're curious as to the evolution of the deck (as much as I have recorded) here it begins: Note that "Version 1.0" is not actually the first created version of the deck, merely the one I first recorded. It likely has also been modified on this site a fair amount. You may find some change logs in subsequent posts and conversations.
I'm going to be building a more aggressive version of the deck, so I figured I'd keep track of the old version before I dismantled it.
Notes on version 1.0: It was fun playing a deck that could legitimately run Lightning Bolt, and actually made thunderboltgood. It also had a built in goal to deck itself, which it never succeeded at. 100 cards is a lot to go through.
This is a Tibor and Lumia deck based around the idea that the general want to play a lot of spells. I primarily sought cantrips and card advantage when building the deck to maximize how much of the deck I go through. While I have a number of cards that use the graveyard, the deck should propel itself into further card draw engines and I am really not that worried if my graveyard gets nuked. There is a sub theme in the equipment as well as some of the creatures/enchantments to do stuff with the damage that T&L does. Below will be alternate ideas.
This deck would also work well with Niv-Mizzet as the general, even without the infinite combo cheapness. Nivvie may draw a bit more of a reaction though.
Both of these alternate builds preferred a more twiddle lineup of cheap spells.
Edit: Tweaks to deck list, removed the worse of the alternate themes.
I have opted to move the other older decklists here, so people can see a bit the transformation of the deck over time. It also helps me remind myself some of the cards I have previously run. This deck has so many directions to go with this theme, it is amazing.
Version 2 is less about the equipment control, removing such things as Basilisk Collar (which is nice in T&L), instead opting for a more aggressive build. Rather than focus directly on T&L abilities, this version focuses on the power of blue and red: the two colors best able to fight on the stack. As such, the decks main weapons are in its instants and sorceries, creating spell chains of immense advantage, to bury your opponents under sheer quantity of cards. The deck capitalizes on blues love of artifacts to use equipment such as Runechanter's Pike and Leering Emblem to further take advantage of the spell slinging.
The goal of this deck is to use T&L as a cheap flier and start working at an enemies life total. Red gives us extra combat effects, some spell recursion, removal, and equipment love. Blue gives us evasion, mobility, and card advantage.
This deck draws cards very aggressively. The largest form of mana ramp in this deck comes from simply not missing land drops. Draw cards, and keep drawing cards. Do not be afraid to drop even good cards into the graveyard, there are more of them in the deck.
Do not be afraid to take pot shots with T&L early, as 3 general damage at a time is not terribly threatening. T&L is also a great source of removal for ground armies, and an effective removal outlet even when tapped.
Creatures - 4
1 Anger - Haste Enabler, never underestimate.
1 River Kelpie - Card draw - absolutely sick with flame jab or Oona's Grace. There is also a fair amount of flash back in the deck.
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord - Equipment tutor, and an awesome beater.
1 Charmbreaker Devils - Free spells, and a phenomenal beater. +4 per spell cast is disgusting, his random return pales in comparison (though is still severely awesome).
Equipment and Stuff - 7
1 Sword of Light and Shadow - Good protection colors, decent lifegain (for stabilization, decent effect, though we are creature light. Would be swapped for War and Peace in a heartbeat.
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul - +3, and trample. Awesome.
1 Runechanter's Pike - We're slinging spells. Lots of them.
1 Grafted Exoskeleton - 2 hit kill on T&L.
1 Diviner's Wand - This deck draws a lot of cards. At the very least its a free equip for +1 and flying, and it is never only +1.
1 Empyrial Plate - often +7, sometimes more.
1 Charisma - because its too hard to not run in T&L. Insta threat card.
Combat Steps - 2
1 Seize the Day - A staple of any red deck wanting to win through general damage.
1 Savage Beating - Double strike, and double attack.
Removal - 7
1 Flame Jab - Disgusting with the kelpie, otherwise a reusable red spell for T&L, and a filter for extra drawn lands.
1 skred - Sexy Removal
1 Red Sun's Zenith - Exile Removal, also direct damage for that last oomph.
1 Oblivion Stone - Mass Removal.
1 Mogg Infestation - One sided wrath in T&L
1 Starstorm - Mass Removal, instant speed
1 electrolyze - Removal, and has 3 magic words: Draw a Card.
Utility Spells - 15
1 Reconstruction - Artifact reclamation
1 Shadow Rift - Draws a card, and makes unblockable
1 Reality Ripple - Best save spell in existence
1 Mind Games - Re useable Blue spell, and removes blockers.
1 Distortion Strike - Unblockable, x2.
1 Repulse - Removes a blocker, and has magic words.
1 Psychotic Fury - Double strike +magic words
1 Haze of Rage - Testing, reusable red spell, that pumps. And has storm.
1 Whim of Volrath - Reusable Blue spell, that triggers both abilities.
1 Past in Flames - Reuse the entire deck.
1 Gamble - Tutor
1 Fabricate - Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll - Tutor
1 Long-Term Plans - Tutor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker - Tutor
Card Draw - 15
1 Ignorant Bliss
1 Oona's Grace
1 Concentrate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Flash of Insight
1 Impulse
1 Peer Through Depths
1 Sift Through Sands
1 Trade Routes - another land filter, also saves lands.
1 Rhystic Study
Counters - 2
1 Arcane Denial - the two political counters in EDH. Both have magic words.
1 Dream Fracture
Mana Rocks + accel - 7
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Walking Atlas
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Paradise Plume - Life gain for stabilization. Choose 'blue' unless you need the red mana, or expect to do flame jab shananiganry.
1 Izzet Signet
sideboard
--------------
LANDS - 40
15 Snow-Covered Mountains
13 Snow-Covered Islands
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Temple of the false god
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Smoldering Spires
1 Tolaria West
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Mishra's Factory - man lands are always a good backup plan when running this many equipment
1 Blinkmoth Nexus - With evasion
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Terrain Generator - this deck draws cards. This puts them into play. It is made of win, and god.
I think light and shadow is a bit underwhelming here. Look how many creatures you have. If anything you should run Sword of War and Peace to give additional pro red, and with all the cards you have in hand it will almost always be effective in one regard.
Oh wow, I like the Titan, that's actually really cool. I'll have to look into that.
I'd love to run a Sword of War and Peace, but I don't have one. You are right it would be amazing in the deck, and the pro-red would help a lot. As far as Light and Shadow, the creature recursion is certainly lessened, and I could put a lox in its place for lifegain, but I'm finding that white and black have the most targeted removal and flyers currently, so I'm like the protections.
I've been seeing a bunch of Karmic Guides, Reya, Bloodgift Demon, etc on the blocker side of things.
Anything with flashback will increase your card economy while triggering T&L twice per card. Cantrips and flashbacks tend to be more expensive and/or less effective than other cards, so you might think of running Ruby Medallion and Sapphire Medallion, though helm of awakening might make you more popular. With that in mind, horn of plenty and horn of greed will guarantee that you almost always have lots of spells to cast.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any sufficiently analyzed Magic is indistinguishable from Science!"
I like horn of plenty a lot, I should even have one of those lying around. Even in a cantrip version that doubles the power of everything you play after. That is nice! As far as the mana reducers, I find this version plays spells a lot less frequently, if I go back to a cheaper faster spell slinger build though, I'll definitely need to keep those in mind, awesome suggestions!
I built a TnL deck back in January that I enjoyed playing very much. It was my first multi-colored deck. So the card selection is a little old since it hasn't been updated since May, but you might get some good ideas from it.
And no on-theme Electrolyze? I'm sure you can find room for that Cut something silly like Distortion Strike or Browbeat.
I see you've got a billion equips. I really liked Power Matrix because I could use it to give dudes flying when I had to and first-strike messes up combat all around the board.
When you have this many artifacts, Tezzeret the Seeker seems really, really good here. He can search up a mana rock or any equipment you want.
I built a TnL deck back in January that I enjoyed playing very much. It was my first multi-colored deck. So the card selection is a little old since it hasn't been updated since May, but you might get some good ideas from it.
And no on-theme Electrolyze? I'm sure you can find room for that Cut something silly like Distortion Strike or Browbeat.
I see you've got a billion equips. I really liked Power Matrix because I could use it to give dudes flying when I had to and first-strike messes up combat all around the board.
When you have this many artifacts, Tezzeret the Seeker seems really, really good here. He can search up a mana rock or any equipment you want.
Your deck looks a lot like halfway in between both of what my builds currently are. There are a lot of good synergies in there, I took the death touch equipment out of this version, and I'm kind of happy with that, but Kaldra may go back in. All 3 pieces are strong.
I like the pirates a lot because they are repeatable theft, and all they lack is evasion, which T&L conveniently fixes! I don't know if I'll run Thalakos Deceiver in here, but thats for the add, I'll have to remember them for a few other decks, I like it a lot.
Electrolyze was in my previous build, centered around cheaper draw/cantrips, and I liked the feel of that better. I think I'm going to cut some equipment (since Godo can tutor, and more cantrips/impulse means ill get them sooner). This will let me abuse Diviner's Wand and the pike a lot more. The problem will be what to cut. Each equipment piece is exceedingly strong.
Power Matrix is nice, I'll have to keep it in mind, but giving only +1 makes it feel a bit weak to me, since T&L's power is the uivalent of fighting with pillows and feather dusters.
Tezzeret... Ah, I wish. He would be in here in a heartbeat. I don't own one, and do need one for this deck.
... So... some of the creatures were put in here as extra threats, I think they are unneeded, if T&L get tucked, I'll include more man-lands.
There's a lot of equipment. I think I need to cut the less necessary ones. Barbed Battlegear I've liked because it makes T&L a 3 turn clock... but with 2 toughness and a lack of first strike... makes them a bit easy to die. Gone.
A few more need to go, but it'll be harder to cut the others.
Dreamstone Hedron fits so many roles... but it's also ridiculously expensive to put out, that I think I need to cut it for a cheaper rock, especially If I fill up on brainstorms again.
So, I see where I want to go, but not quite how to get there. This may be a bit tricky, and there may be some hard cuts. I think, for example, that Sword of Fire and Ice may need to go. The pro-red is awesome for T&L so she doesn't hit herself, but I can prevent that first with a blue spell... except that pro-blue makes me unable to give them flying. Not good when we have an aggro general strategy. War and Peace would be nice here, but I don't have one. I like Sword of Light and Shadow's protections, but the abilities are decidedly weak. If I can get a war&peace, then I can put in feast&famine in its place for the pro-black, and a much better ability. That may be the path to go. Aggravated assault could then replace World at war. I'm typically not a fan of infinite combo's, but that interaction requires so much, and has so many way for an opponent to stop it that I'm not terribly concerned.
Upping the spell count I think is the right move for T&L, the pike, the devils, the past in flames, and the diviner's wand, which is the synergy I want to build into this deck.
Playing this version last night had some impressive plays (including a 28 point T&L attack, equipped with both Diviner's Wand and the Pike); but it still feels it's missing something.
I also need some form of permanent removal in the deck. I need to hunt down additional capsizes and chain of vapors to deal with annoying stuff.
I hadn't really thought about it much when I was building mine but the idea of a voltron T+L without the deathtouch equipment and focusing on the spells does look really awesome. There's plenty of available equip tutors and plenty of cantrips to rack up the damage on ground guys, and Diviner's Wand with any big draw is enough to knock someone out in one go. Plus it's the perfect deck for Runechanter's Pike, a great Tezzeret tutor target and a personal favorite card from ISD.
I love using them as a commander too because no one takes you seriously until you've already won.
I may unsheathe my foil T+L and try this out at some point. I do still own all the cards...
Whoa. You know what could be a real beast here? Especially with Diviner's Wand? Cephalid Constable. Free equips for Wand and Greaves, then draw some cards and bounce someone's manabase. Awesome. He works really well with the things you're trying to do with T+L.
You are right, he is awesome! Once again his biggest drawback is his lack of evasion, which T&L conveniently answers!
I'm a little concerned about his one toughness, since an errant red spell on an opponents turn means death, but I think that can be worked around in the deck construction.
I typically like Fork effects in red decks, to copy other peoples ramp and draw, but I don't think they are as needed in T&L due to already having plenty of draw. It'll make me less hesitant to drop Walking Atlas too if I have a higher Blue count.
One card missing from my mana-base is Terrain Generator. I have currently misplaced mine, so they aren't in the deck (I think one might be in my Vaevictus deck...) but are actually quite good at answering red and blue's lack of ramp.
This is probably terrible but how about Whim of Volrath? You hack T&L so both trigger off blue then you can cast it over and over. I'd also run Izzet Signet in here.
This is probably terrible but how about Whim of Volrath? You hack T&L so both trigger off blue then you can cast it over and over. I'd also run Izzet Signet in here.
Sweet heaven would that have fit into the older version of this! That is exactly the kind of crazy interaction I was going for; I may have to add that to this one just for sheer amusement!
Just a thought but I notice you dont have any clone effects in the list. There are the obvious uses like killing opposing commanders, copying primeval titans and whatnot but a bit of a side note:
Phyrexian Metamorph obviously can double up your equipment making it harder to remove them. Can also double as a copy effect for early Sol Rings. So damn versatile.
Phantasmal Image using him + Palinchron you can go infinite as it only costs 2 to cast the Image and 4 to bounce thus netting one mana per cycle. Add that to the possibility of that last card if you change Tibor's ability to both trigger off of blue spells you can just burn the house down on the spot. Plus the fact that he costs so little is amazing especially if you were just going to kill a legendary creature with it the cost of 2 mana is nuts.
EDIT: Ohhhh boy I just realized you are without Academy Ruins with all of that equipment.... seems like a shame. Also Metamorph is reusable off of the ruins as well.
EDIT 2:Vedalken Aethermage could give you an outlet to tutor up your commander if he gets tucked. Or you could just go with Gamble which can get anything. I just noticed that your plan B seems to be sort of inferior to slapping people with your commander.
I cut out some of the more expensive to equip pieces of gear (or those that did less, like the battlegear) and the creatures in favor of more card draw, spells, and tutoring. This should get us to one of the major pieces of equipment faster, and go for the connection with the General.
I was a bit sad to pull the fork package, since I love copying ramp; but that may be too gimmicky for this deck, since we're casting a bunch of cheap stuff. I may put two back in (fork and reverberate), but I'm going to try without it for a bit.
IN
Terrain Generator - either I can't count, or I only had 39 lands, plus, this one helps accel a bit.
Pristine Talisman - Replaced mindstone. I found that I rarely needed Mindstone for the cards in this deck, and I've been meaning to give this a try to see how much of an impact it can really have.
Izzet Signet - replaces Dreamstone hedron. We're back to a more color specific list
Cards that can still find a place, if I can find them:
- Deserted Temple - looks like I can never find enough of these.
- Shrine of - blue one. Gets ridiculous quite quickly, apparently. I don't like that it's not a spell. May have to test.
- Time Reversal - and other effects of this sort. Powers up the Diviner's wand, but weakens the pike. Also lets me reuse a bunch of spells. I'm pretty sure I can dig through my deck faster than anyone else.
- Inspiration - One less card than Concentrate, but instant speed... it's a thought.
- Academy Ruins - didn't find one, sad. I might not actually have one.
- Phyrexian Metamorph - because it's just too good to ignore.
Another thought is to replace all of the cards that 'put a card into hand,' with those that draw 3/discard 1 type of deals. The only equipment those power up though is the wand, the pike just cares about spells played, and the emyprial plate doesn't care how the cards got in hand, so I'm not too worried about it currently.
OUT: Trade Secrets - an amazing card, absolutely deserving of the deck, but it causes ridiculously stupid situations to arise. Pristine Talismna - for plume... yay. Infiltration lens - once im being blocked, I don't really need more cards.
I am currently missing strip effects in my deck. I want to add: Buried Ruin Tectonic Edge Strip Mine Ghost Quarter
though I am concerned of diluting too much mana into colorless. I will play the deck tonight and see how much of an effect that would have. I may also add the Red and Blue original Karoos to help meet land drops early on. Late game should pose no problem though on land drops.
I really like a lot of the mentality behind this deck... it sort of reminds me of Wydwen, the Biting Gale a little but in more... interesting colors?
I like how the commander can be a source of control as well... I am almost tempted to dummy up a list and see what could come from it. You have some... interesting card choices though so I think I might make a few alters of my own.
Generally speaking most players dont FEAR Tibor & Lumia so I think it would be a fun list to mock up and see what it could do.
How would you compare your Tibor & Lumia in comparison to Riku? Is I know they are different lists but the sheer amount of play Riku sees sort of turns me off to him. I had been considering something a bit more rogue and this feels sort of like that. I dont want to go there though if Riku is just hands down better though... ehhh well I will get a list going and see what I can do...
I was sort of wondering about a few of those myself... Sword of Kaldra could be good as well as it will exile all ground pounders but it is tricky to use as you need to fly your creatures first or it will kill them. Still... it is also a +5/+5 buff which sounds fantastic.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Well that would be some of the first changes I would make... I changed out most of the equipment but other than that it was just here and there things that I think I would slightly alter. I like the list though it seems like it could be fun. I will have to see if I can dummy it up sometime to see how it runs.
I also dropped Ignite Memories in as sort of a plan B as I think this deck could storm into killing some people without too much effort due to all the low costed draw spells. What do you think of adding something like Future Sight to the list as well??? With so much cheap draw I think it would do really good.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
I ran those in the previous version, which had a larger emphasis on control using Tibor and Lumia's Red ability. Its a metadeck I keep in my thoughts with the general, especially if defense starts to be an issue. In the current version, I am going for a much more aggressive build, focused around T&L's blue ability, and around the spell pike, the diviners wand, and the empyrial plate. The Idea is to make T&L big, remove any blockers, and 2-shot someone. The card draw/tutoring is to get to that point.
For each of those equipment: Basilisk Collar - Love the death touch, love the lifelink, hate that it doesn't help me kill players. Gorgon Flail - too small a boost, and too small an effect. Quietus Spike - I have considered bringing this one back, but the issue is that it loses power on subsequent hits. I usually tend to start getting really aggressive mid/mid-late game, and by then the spike doesn't do as much for me. Neko-Te - seems interesting as a defensive control. I'll have to try it out. The problem I run into is if I somehow have to play a red spell with limited mana on an opponents turn, it may be hard to untap T&L. I'll definitely try and get one to playtest though.
ISB: Sword of Kaldra - I have actually considered putting the set in here as great equipment and a backup plan, but it comes down to the sword being a huge threat, and also rather expensive. It was actually briefly in this version, but got cut for some tutoring power. I was a bit dissapointed recently at this decks lack of a bit of haste, so I'm re-evaluating certain equipment.
DT:
I considered some storm shananigans in the deck, but very few storm cards actually excited me for this deck. The only one that really excited me was ignite Memories, which I think is absolutely hilarious (and will probably go in). Temporal Fissure and Volcanic Awakening are both ridiculously powerful in this deck, and i think they may be 'unfun' for my meta.
I have been playtesting Haze of Rage as a repeatable red spell for cheap, as well as storm, and while I hate that it's a sorcery, it has gotten to impressive levels already, double casting it for +7 followed by +8 after a few brainstorm type cards.
The issue I have with top is that I filter through cards so quickly already, it doesn't do much outside of future sight. The issue I have with future sight is... it dies. Not much else is worth killing in this deck, that when I ran the sight, out of 7 casts, it never saw a second turn.
Quote from ISBPathfinder »
I really like a lot of the mentality behind this deck... it sort of reminds me of Wydwen, the Biting Gale a little but in more... interesting colors?
I like how the commander can be a source of control as well... I am almost tempted to dummy up a list and see what could come from it. You have some... interesting card choices though so I think I might make a few alters of my own.
Generally speaking most players dont FEAR Tibor & Lumia so I think it would be a fun list to mock up and see what it could do.
How would you compare your Tibor & Lumia in comparison to Riku? Is I know they are different lists but the sheer amount of play Riku sees sort of turns me off to him. I had been considering something a bit more rogue and this feels sort of like that. I dont want to go there though if Riku is just hands down better though... ehhh well I will get a list going and see what I can do...
T&L is very... interesting... to balance. I forget whether this is the second or thrid General I built around (around the same time as Nemata), but I have rebuilt this deck on so many different themes, from the damaging equipment, to a heavy theft build, to this current Voltron monstrosity.
T&L is an interesting general with very interesting abilities. She triggers off of spell casts, but the effects are so minor that you really need to work around it to find a way that works. I opted to just go mass spells. Their pseudo-flying actually allows a spell slinging aggro route with the pike, which I think would be more difficult in Riku.
The main difference with Wydwen is the card draw mentality. Red adding in wheel effects makes for a very explosive draw situation, rather than the slower, more methodical method of black. Wydwen I'd expect to be a cooler, calmer, control commander. In T&L, I routinely get down to less than 20 cards in my library. This is hardly the only way to build the deck. A heavier focus on buyback, which I am currently considering, can give a very controlled, slower, solid style.
The reason for the massive spells right now was just the evolution of the deck. The first version was bout a normal paced deck, eventually, I got bored of doing things so slowly, and only triggering T&L once or twice a turn, and I dropped to cheap crap. It made explosive moments, but overall the effects were just too weak. I could wipe a board, but I'd do it with 8 mana, 5 spells, and some crazy stack manipulation. It was a very cluttered, highly amusing (for me) way of overcomplicating everything I did. I loved it. When I decided to challenge myself and a certain mentality I had about card value in EDH by trying to see if I could actually deck myself... T&L was the first and only choice for that. And it did even less, by doing even more. It's improved from that point, but it still has that mentality in its roots now.
The major difference from Riku is that T&L is not a blatant threat upon hitting the table. I make her one, almost immediately, but her own abilities don't say "I win." Truthfully speaking, if you want a 3/3 Flyer general who deals damage with a control element, Olivia Voldaren is better in every individual regard, with absolutely destructive colors, better abilities, and a better general overall. But something about the package deal makes T&L so much more fun to play, and rather surprisingly effective. I play the current deck very aggressively, and its a bit of a thrill to put the foot down on the gas, and never let up.
The major difference from Riku is that T&L is not a blatant threat upon hitting the table. I make her one, almost immediately, but her own abilities don't say "I win." Truthfully speaking, if you want a 3/3 Flyer general who deals damage with a control element, Olivia Voldaren is better in every individual regard, with absolutely destructive colors, better abilities, and a better general overall. But something about the package deal makes T&L so much more fun to play, and rather surprisingly effective. I play the current deck very aggressively, and its a bit of a thrill to put the foot down on the gas, and never let up.
The problem with Olivia is she is an obvious threat and has sort of low interaction with the rest of her deck. I don't like having commanders that must be answered as I like being the more subtle player in the game.
I really like the heavy draw aspect of this deck. In my mind the more things you get to do in a turn the more fun you are having with your deck. I would love to draw and play my whole deck every game as that sounds like it would be a blast. Not every spell has to have huge effect on the game to make them add up and that is sort of part of what I like about your Tibor & Lumia list. It isnt all about 1-2 spells it is about dropping a whole lot of them at once.
Even if someone tucks Tibor & Lumia I think the deck would be a lot of fun even without them as you just hit the gas pedal and see how far down you can dig and try to win anyways.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I really like the heavy draw aspect of this deck. In my mind the more things you get to do in a turn the more fun you are having with your deck. I would love to draw and play my whole deck every game as that sounds like it would be a blast. Not every spell has to have huge effect on the game to make them add up and that is sort of part of what I like about your Tibor & Lumia list. It isnt all about 1-2 spells it is about dropping a whole lot of them at once.
This is the exact mentality I embraced in building this deck. I still think my crowning moment was using something like 5-6 spells to wipe the board (when other deck would simply use a chain reaction.)
It went something like, blue spell to give T&L flying, Mogg Infestation to put a damage on everything and wipe one player out (he had a lot of flyers). Blue spell to give another creature flying (a 5/5). Thunderbolt it, putting a second damage on everything, Lightning bolt the 6/6 to kill it and all the 3/3's, leaving T&L and a 4/4 out (with 3 damage), which I burned a draw spell to get the last red spell to kill it. Somewhere in there someone path to exiled T&L, so the last bit of it was instant speed in response, to leave a completely empty board. I think I also gained a card in hand through all that. Deep Analysis may have been involved.
I always feel bad for the Mogg Infestation Goblins though. They are never long for the world.
A few changes, mostly to the mana base, but a few interesting cards as well.
-Rhystic Study - this was a really hard cut, but I hate depending on this card, especially as it has gotten a bit of a bad rep in my group. Mainly because I use it, and it deserves it.
+Spellweaver Volute - crazy shenaniganry. Seems like fun! Have to try it out, its a bit anti-synnergistic with the pike, but since mostly ill be using it to repeat draw effects, looks like it could be fun.
-Trade Routes - I rarely re-use lands, and haven't really needed to protect anything for a while.
-Haze of Rage - It was fun, but not nearly enough of an effect. Too simple. Eventually I'll get an ignite memories to fill its spot, but for now...
+Swiftfoot Boots - haste! (and NOT shroud)
+Shrine of Piercing Visions - Since someone brought it up in the Hidden Gems thread, i thought I'd give it a shot. Looks like it could be insanely good in this deck.
-Starstorm - I'll play more red spells. I don't think I've ever actually cast this before.
-Grafted Exoskeleton - Conflicting win conditions. Does me no good and sets me back if destroyed.
+Unifying Theory and Horn of Plenty. More set up to moving towards buyback. New version number for it. (+awesome with spells played? We'll find out!) They are symmetrical, but I have an odd feeling that I can do it better. =P
Starting to consider re-adding Future Sight and/or the magus. I'm starting to become less worried about threat level, as this deck has a bit of a reputation in my playgroup. Also considering Memory Jar and magus as well, though less so.
Still thinking about the buyback version as well. I think that would be interesting. I think I have enough tutoring effects now to guarantee finding Memory Crystal.
This is one of the biggest questions I get. Why Tibor and Lumia as far as they go, even I have to admit they are comparatively weak to other 4 cost generals. Olivia Voldaren alone is equal in stature, has flying by default, and still does damage to whichever targets you want, and has a devastating extra ability. Jenara, likewise, is another powerful 3/3 flyer for cheaper. What makes Tibor and Lumia so special?
I have always been partial to the blue/red pairing. Early on, one of my favorite archetypes was a traditional counter/burn deck. Tibor and Lumia is one of the earliest EDH decks I built; vying with Nemata and Vaevictis, shortly after my Cromat deck. I chose Tibor and Lumia over other blue/red generals (notably Niv-Mizzet, who I jokingly claim T&L would rather be) for several reasons:
What you could do with T&L
The first version of this deck was much more good stuff. I then modified it with a clear goal of attempting to deck myself in EDH, using a lot of card draw and cantrips, while I have come close, I have not yet actually managed this feat. Sphinx-Bone Wand and Cast through Time made prominent appearances in the deck after the volume of spells I could play became evident. This is one way to abuse slinging multiple spells. I fount it a bit too fragile.
Another option for T&L aspirers is to focus on the red ability. The capability to burn the ground is very powerful, couple it with powerful equipment/auras like Charisma or Sword of Kaldra and you have a threat to reckon with. This build lends itself to a very strong control approach, using red to inflict pain, keep your enemies under control, with support from blue for the stack war and protection.
Another take on the red option, is to run repercussion/Mog Maniac type effects (though not the maniac himself, he's not so good with T&L). Other notable ones are Stuffy Doll (which you can clone) and Coal hauler swine.
Yet another option goes in the other direction again. Focus on the blue side of the twins: Run small utility "on connect" creatures like Surrakar Spellblade, or Kukemssa pirates. Use the flying ability to ensure they connect. Mystic Decree and gravity sphere work well in both of these color-specific versions, as does Phyrexian Splicer.
The last option, is quite surprisingly a combination of the two decks above, as well as the current version. Gelectrode and Cinder Pyromancer as well as another untapper with Quicksilver Dagger also plays well with a large number of instant/sorceries, as well as all the controlling equipments. Curiosity and Ophidian Eye then make a close approximation to a cheaper (mana cost) Niv-Mizzet type combo (without actually being boring). It's an extra way to gain cantrips off of your massive spell slinging.
This Version
Rather than focus directly on T&L abilities, this version focuses on the power of blue and red: the two colors best able to fight on the stack. As such, the decks main weapons are in its instants and sorceries, creating spell chains of immense advantage, to bury your opponents under sheer quantity of cards. The deck capitalizes on blues love of artifacts to use equipment such as Runechanter's Pike and Leering Emblem to further take advantage of the spell slinging. T&L fits this strategy by providing a cheap evasive general, with relevant abilities to trigger off of the spell-slinging.
Other Decks!
TheEndIsNear has posted his Storm Combo version, with a higher emphasis on mana rocks to get the early mana needed to fuel cheap spells. Also includes a fair set of 'free' spells.
4 Tibor and Lumia
Instants - 24
1 Shadow Rift
1 Mind Games
1 Skred
1 Quicken
2 Snap
2 Reality Ripple
2 Psychotic Fury
2 Ignorant Bliss
2 Echoing Truth
3 Frantic Search
3 Oona's Grace
3 Repulse
3 Long-Term Plans
3 Cerebral Vortex
3 Chaos Warp
4 Turnabout - *
4 Inspiration
4 Fact of Fiction
4 Overblaze
4 Plagiarize
2x Flash of Insight
1 Vex
1 Arcane Denial
1 Dream Fracture
Sorceries - 15
1 Artful Dodge
1 Flame Jab
1 Gamble
1 Faithless Looting
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Fabricate
3 Windfall
3 Wheel of Fortune
4 Mystic Retrieval
4 Deep Analysis
4 Concentrate
4 Seize the Day
4 Past in Flames - *
5 Ignite Memories
6 Time Spiral - trial
2 Walking Atlas
3 Guard Gomazoa - trial
3 Gomazoa - trial
4 Anger
5 River Kelpie
Artifacts - 14
2 Swiftfoot Boots
2 Leering Emblem - *
2 Runechanter's Pike
3 Diviner's Wand
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Sol Ring
2 Izzet Signet
3 Darksteel Ingot
4 Paradise Plume
2 helm of Awakening
2 Sapphire Medallion
3 Catalyst Stone
5 Stone Calendar
6 Mana Matrix
Enchantments - 3
3 Secrets of the Dead - *
3 Burning Vengeance
5 Spellweaver Volute - *
Planeswalker - 1
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
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LANDS - 37
12 Snow-Covered Mountain
12 Snow-Covered Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Temple of the False God
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Buried Ruin
1 Academy Ruins
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Terrain Generator
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
Notable Themes:
Playing the Deck
Step 1: Draw cards.
Step 2: When you have a full hand of cards, Draw more cards.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Draw cards.
That is exactly how the deck plays out; the goal is to stick one of the awesome equipment on T&L. To get them, you draw cards until you get them, once you have one of them, you draw more cards to make them stronger. Somewhere in there you attack and kill someone. Mostly you look impressive by doing lots of stuff, most of which doesn't do much except let you do more stuff. The fact that some of your stuff does stuff while you do stuff is inconsequential. Until you kill someone with your stuff.
Spellweaver Volute
A card so awesome, it gets its dedicated paragraph.
In a deck where playing spells is good, and volume of spells is great, and running lots of instants is awesome... replaying them all for free is simply sheer brilliance.
The obvious all star here, is Flame Jab, allowing you to suddenly replay any instant you choose, for the simple cost of R.
So here are the fun things to note: The Volute enchants (and attaches) to an instant card in a graveyard. Yes, that means anybodies grave yard. You can cast other peoples cool spells; something I had not been entirely aware of before.
The Volute creates a copy of the card then casts the copy. Many people may groan at the creating a copy part, but here are the important distinctions:
Tibor and Lumia - A cheap aggressive general, who can give themselves evasion on the cheap, as well as handle threats on the ground. Inherently good against token swarms. Have been a bit overshadowed by their more recent rivals, Jenara, Asura of War, and Olivia Voldaren, yet because of this hold a strength in surprise and in their colors. Whereas Jenara and Olivia require some amount of mana dedicated to themselves, T&L's abilities fire off as a consequence of other actions. This allows the deck to be much faster than its rival generals.
Instants
Shadow Rift - Instant speed evasion. For almost all practical purposes, shadow = unblockable, especially when flying as well. While there is no inherent flashback, the cantrip is nice.
Mind Games - Repeatable blue spell for a source of flying, and able to open otherwise closed attack routes. Do note that it taps things other than creatures, shutting down problematic mana sources or mazes prior to your turn/attack is very useful.
Skred - Burn baby burn. This is red's best single mana removal spell in this format.
Quicken - Technically in trial phase, this synergies with a lot of the deck. With 15 sorceries, and a built in cantrip, this is never a dead draw. Flashing back a Past in Flames for a blowout counterspell action is also very strong.
Snap - Good creature bounce, that happens to be 'free.' With the spell reductions I run, it tends to generate mana for me. A good way to go off sooner.
Reality Ripple - My secret gem of a card, it answers anything, or saves whatever you want. It answers almost anything for the mere cost of 1U.
Psychotic Fury - Double Strikes our T&L for a quick kill, and cantrips in red. Awesome!
Ignorant Bliss - Saves our hands from enemy removal (rarely), or more often from our own wheels. Turns any wheel effect into pure advantage.
Echoing Truth - Blue bounce that hits non-creatures. This is how you deal with problematic enchantments. Side effect of being effective against tokens, if you can't deal with them with T&L for some reason.
Frantic Search - See snap. Card filtration/draw, that is 'free.'
Oona's Grace - On its own, it cycles lands for 2U. Nothing terribly awesome. As soom as you turn it into advantage with a Kelpie/Secrets of the dead, it starts to shine. If you reduce the cost, it positively glows. Turning all your lands into Ancestral Recall has never been cooler.
Repulse - Instant speed answer, with a cantrip!
Long-Term Plans - Tutoring power.
Cerebral Vortex - Can be used on opponents EoT as an instant speed draw 2. Otherwise it punishes card drawers, or whoever you want when you chain wheels.
Chaos Warp - Reds answer all.
Turnabout - Generates absurd amounts of mana. This is one of those cards that was practically a mistake to print. You can also use it to shut out one player's defense if needed.
Inspiration - Drawing cards is cool.
Fact of Fiction - Drawing lots of cards is even cooler.
Overblaze - Can boost T&L with a double damage, akin to Psychotic Fury, but shines as it also doubles T&L tremor ability, as well as being able to stack multiple times for insane damage.
Plagiarize - Currently testing, it's an evil blowout with wheel effects, and is brutal with anyone abusing card draw. Do not cast versus a Sphinx player. (should probably be Jace's Ingenuity, but I can't find one atm.)
Flash of Insight - Blue draw/search, with an easy flashback cost.
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Vex - counter (disputed by others)
Arcane Denial - counter + card advantage
Dream Fracture - counter + card advantage
Sorceries
Artful Dodge - Unblockable for 2 uses, flashback also synergies with the rest of the deck. Spot used to be held by Distortion Strike, which is good in its own way, but this fits better for the deck.
Flame Jab - A true allstar in the deck: the river kelpie/secrets of the dead combo allows you to chain multiples off at a time.
Gamble - tutor
Faithless Looting - filtration with a flashback.
Merchant Scroll - tutor
Fabricate - tutor
Windfall - wheel effect
Wheel of Fortune - wheel
Mystic Retrieval - Returns more spells for you to play. Essentially card advantage.
Deep Analysis - Drawing cards is awesome!
Concentrate - Repeated!
Seize the Day - Our glorious combat trick to eliminate multiple opponents in a single turn. Because once you kill one person in a single hit, others get worried.
Past in Flames - When this card was printed, this deck really cranked it into overdrive. This allows about 40% of the deck to be reused. Typically the turn you cast this, you win.
Ignite Memories - When casting lots of spells, anything that takes advantage of that is pretty cool. Not only does this lay serious pain on someone, it does it with style.
Time Spiral - (trial) Fits under the wheel/draw 7 idea, as well as generating more mana. I have some concern over losing my graveyard, as that's my goto for quick answers, especially if some spells are already exiled, as that would dilute the spell-nonspell ratio of the deck. Still, it was a broken card once, I don't see why that would end now.
Creatures
Walking Atlas - Mana acceleration (while he lasts). Getting going in the early game is crucial.
Guard Gomazoa - I'm trying out the 2 jellyfish as early deterrents. Updates to come.
Gomazoa
Anger - haste.
River Kelpie - Oh sweet awesome the draw.
Artifacts
Swiftfoot Boots - haste/hexproof/awesome (greaves prevents you from giving T&L flying, as well as other self buff spells, like psychotic fury)
Leering Emblem - Oh sweet heaven, this is responsible for many a blowout. With only 2 spells it makes T&L a 7/7, which is a 3 hit kill. For two more, at 11/11 is 2 hit, which happens to work well with psychotic fury, Overblaze and Carpe Diem.
Runechanter's Pike - You may think this doesn't work well with flashback, but let me educate you: Every spell you flashback gets you more cards. More cards means more spells to play, which means more spells in the graveyard. It's cool. Don't trust me on this, just try it.
Diviner's Wand - Auto equips to T&L, and a wheel effect alone puts T&L in kill zone (1 card for your turn, +7 off of wheel puts T&L up to an 11/11. Add Overblaze/Double Strike, etc = dead opponent)
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Wayfarer's Bauble - ramp
Sol Ring - rock
Izzet Signet - rock
Darksteel Ingot - non-dying rock
Paradise Plume - rock that gains sick absurd amounts of life.
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helm of Awakening - cheap
Sapphire Medallion - cheap for me
Catalyst Stone - cheaper for me sometimes
Stone Calendar - cheap for me for everything
Mana Matrix - I'm a cheapskate
Enchantments
Secrets of the Dead - Kelpie version 2.0
Burning Vengeance - (kinda trial) Alternate damage options are useful at times.
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Spellweaver Volute - It is awesome, see the dedicated section.
Planeswalker
Tezzeret the Seeker - searchy stuff, or untap the mana stuff you have.
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LANDS
12 Snow-Covered Mountain
12 Snow-Covered Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Temple of the False God
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Buried Ruin
1 Academy Ruins
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Terrain Generator
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
Crucible of Worlds - The retrace spells absolutely beg for this; and yet it never makes the final cut. It is always just 1 card away.
Trade Routes - Another card that retrace loves, it is a bit more of a suicidal approach. Very strong, but eventually I found it to really be just on par. Great, but not necessary.
Empyrial Plate - For a deck that loves to draw cards, this is another great equipment for an aggressive build. Overall, I felt that 3 equipment served the job plenty fine, and oddly, I found this one to be the one hardest to charge up to lethal (though gives the best permanent return as well).
Surrakar Spellblade and friends - Great cards, goes for a different version of the deck. ;-P (imagine a blue cantrip theme with "on connect" creatures like Kukemsa Pirates, using T&L's blue ability as free connection tool)
Radiate - A beastly monster of a card, this can do so much, though you never know game to game what it will do. Further in this thread, one advocate of this card used it to Reality Ripple everything during an opponents end step, so he was the only one with permanents. No blockers, no counterspell mana... Seems like a cool way to win to me.
Reckless Charge - Probably the only place you will ever see this card on a Notable Exclusions list. I still need to wrangle one into my deck, extra haste sources allow that blowout kill from anywhere, and built in pump as well as flashback make this a no-brainer.
POWERFUL STORM CARDS:
Volcanic Awakening - Powerful land destruction.
Temporal Fissure - Powerful bounce.
Mind's Desire - More of everything.
To put storm spells in perspective, I have hit over 30 spells in a turn before. I believe I have hit over 40.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I'm going to be building a more aggressive version of the deck, so I figured I'd keep track of the old version before I dismantled it.
Notes on version 1.0: It was fun playing a deck that could legitimately run Lightning Bolt, and actually made thunderbolt good. It also had a built in goal to deck itself, which it never succeeded at. 100 cards is a lot to go through.
This is a Tibor and Lumia deck based around the idea that the general want to play a lot of spells. I primarily sought cantrips and card advantage when building the deck to maximize how much of the deck I go through. While I have a number of cards that use the graveyard, the deck should propel itself into further card draw engines and I am really not that worried if my graveyard gets nuked. There is a sub theme in the equipment as well as some of the creatures/enchantments to do stuff with the damage that T&L does. Below will be alternate ideas.
This deck would also work well with Niv-Mizzet as the general, even without the infinite combo cheapness. Nivvie may draw a bit more of a reaction though.
1 Brainstorm (u - i - draw)
1 Reach through the mists (u - i - draw)
1 peer though the depths (u - i - draw)
1 sift through the sands (u - i - draw)
1 Think Twice (u - i - draw)
1 flash of insight (u - i - draw)
1 blue sun's zenith (u - i - draw)
1 trade secrets (u - s - draw)
1 ancestral visions (u - s - draw)
1 deep analysis (u - s - draw)
1 ignorant bliss (r - i - draw)
1 Wheel of Fortune (r - s - draw)
1 Wheel of Fate (r - s - draw)
1 browbeat (r - s - draw)
Equipment/Aura - 7
1 Diviner's Wand
1 Livewire Lash
1 Scythe of the wretched
1 Grafted Exoskeleton
1 Gorgon Flail
1 Blight Sickle
1 Basilisk collar
1 Quietus Spike
1 Charisma
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Trade Routes
1 Repercussion
1 Rhystic Study
1 Future Sight
Creatures - 9
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Surrakar Spellblade
1 Kiln Fiend
1 Wee Dragonauts
1 Coalhauler Swine
1 Stuffy Doll
1 River kelpie
1 Rimefeather Owl
1 The Unspeakable
Spells - Burn/utility - 14
1 Electrolyze (ur - i - burn/draw)
1 fire/ice (ur - i - tap/burn/draw)
1 Shadow Rift (u - i - draw)
1 lightning bolt
1 skred
1 flame jab
1 rift bolt
1 thunderbolt
1 first volley
1 glacial ray
1 red sun's zenith
1 reality ripple (u - phase)
1 consuming vortex
1 reality ripple
1 Thunder Clouds
1 isochron scepter
1 cast through time
1 sphinx bone wand
Mass Removal - 3
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Starstorm
1 Mogg Infestation
Mana Rocks - 3
1 Sol Ring
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Mind Stone
Land - 39
16 Snow Covered Island
16 Snow Covered Mountain
1 Scrying Sheets
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Ghitu Encampment
1 Smoldering Spires
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Temple of the False God
General - 1
1 Tibor and Lumia
Alternate themes
1 Erratic Portal
1 Crystal Shard
1 Heidar, Rimewind Master
1 Vedalken Mastermind
1 Tolarian Sentinel
1 mulldrifter
1 Raven Familiar
1 Flametongue kavu
1 pardic arsonist
1 anarchist
1 izzet chronarch
Both of these alternate builds preferred a more twiddle lineup of cheap spells.
Edit: Tweaks to deck list, removed the worse of the alternate themes.
I have opted to move the other older decklists here, so people can see a bit the transformation of the deck over time. It also helps me remind myself some of the cards I have previously run. This deck has so many directions to go with this theme, it is amazing.
Version 2 is less about the equipment control, removing such things as Basilisk Collar (which is nice in T&L), instead opting for a more aggressive build. Rather than focus directly on T&L abilities, this version focuses on the power of blue and red: the two colors best able to fight on the stack. As such, the decks main weapons are in its instants and sorceries, creating spell chains of immense advantage, to bury your opponents under sheer quantity of cards. The deck capitalizes on blues love of artifacts to use equipment such as Runechanter's Pike and Leering Emblem to further take advantage of the spell slinging.
1 Tibor and Lumia
Creatures - 4
1 Anger
1 River Kelpie
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Charmbreaker Devils
Equipment and Stuff - 7
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Grafted Exoskeleton
1 Diviner's Wand
1 Empyrial Plate
1 Charisma - because its too hard to not run in T&L
Combat Steps - 2
1 Seize the Day
1 Savage Beating
Removal - 7
1 Flame Jab
1 skred
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mogg Infestation
1 Starstorm
1 electrolyze
Utility Spells - 15
1 Reconstruction
1 Shadow Rift
1 Reality Ripple
1 Mind Games
1 Distortion Strike
1 Repulse
1 Fabricate
1 Psychotic Fury
1 Haze of Rage
1 Whim of Volrath
1 Past in Flames
1 Gamble
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Long-Term Plans
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Ignorant Bliss
1 Oona's Grace
1 Concentrate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Flash of Insight
1 Impulse
1 Peer Through Depths
1 Sift Through Sands
1 Trade Routes
1 Rhystic Study
Counters - 2
1 Arcane Denial
1 Dream Fracture
Mana Rocks + accel - 7
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Walking Atlas
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Paradise Plume
1 Izzet Signet
--------------
LANDS - 40
15 Snow-Covered Mountains
13 Snow-Covered Islands
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Temple of the false god
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Smoldering Spires
1 Tolaria West
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Terrain Generator
This deck draws cards very aggressively. The largest form of mana ramp in this deck comes from simply not missing land drops. Draw cards, and keep drawing cards. Do not be afraid to drop even good cards into the graveyard, there are more of them in the deck.
Do not be afraid to take pot shots with T&L early, as 3 general damage at a time is not terribly threatening. T&L is also a great source of removal for ground armies, and an effective removal outlet even when tapped.
1 Tibor and Lumia
Creatures - 4
1 Anger
1 River Kelpie
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Charmbreaker Devils
Equipment and Stuff - 7
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Diviner's Wand
1 Empyrial Plate
1 Charisma - because its too hard to not run in T&L
Combat Steps - 2
1 Seize the Day
1 Savage Beating
Removal - 6
1 Flame Jab
1 skred
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mogg Infestation
1 electrolyze
Utility Spells - 14
1 Reconstruction
1 Shadow Rift
1 Reality Ripple
1 Mind Games
1 Distortion Strike
1 Repulse
1 Fabricate
1 Psychotic Fury
1 Whim of Volrath
1 Past in Flames
1 Gamble
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Long-Term Plans
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Ignorant Bliss
1 Oona's Grace
1 Concentrate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Flash of Insight
1 Impulse
1 Peer Through Depths
1 Sift Through Sands
1 Shrine of Piercing Vision
1 Spellweaver Volute
1 Unifying Theory
1 Horn of Plenty
Counters - 2
1 Arcane Denial
1 Dream Fracture
Mana Rocks + accel - 7
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Walking Atlas
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Paradise Plume
1 Izzet Signet
--------------
LANDS - 40
13 Snow-Covered Mountains
12 Snow-Covered Islands
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Temple of the false god
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Terrain Generator
1 Strip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Buried Ruin
1 Scrying Sheets
Creatures - 4
1 Anger - Haste Enabler, never underestimate.
1 River Kelpie - Card draw - absolutely sick with flame jab or Oona's Grace. There is also a fair amount of flash back in the deck.
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord - Equipment tutor, and an awesome beater.
1 Charmbreaker Devils - Free spells, and a phenomenal beater. +4 per spell cast is disgusting, his random return pales in comparison (though is still severely awesome).
Equipment and Stuff - 7
1 Sword of Light and Shadow - Good protection colors, decent lifegain (for stabilization, decent effect, though we are creature light. Would be swapped for War and Peace in a heartbeat.
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul - +3, and trample. Awesome.
1 Runechanter's Pike - We're slinging spells. Lots of them.
1 Grafted Exoskeleton - 2 hit kill on T&L.
1 Diviner's Wand - This deck draws a lot of cards. At the very least its a free equip for +1 and flying, and it is never only +1.
1 Empyrial Plate - often +7, sometimes more.
1 Charisma - because its too hard to not run in T&L. Insta threat card.
Combat Steps - 2
1 Seize the Day - A staple of any red deck wanting to win through general damage.
1 Savage Beating - Double strike, and double attack.
Removal - 7
1 Flame Jab - Disgusting with the kelpie, otherwise a reusable red spell for T&L, and a filter for extra drawn lands.
1 skred - Sexy Removal
1 Red Sun's Zenith - Exile Removal, also direct damage for that last oomph.
1 Oblivion Stone - Mass Removal.
1 Mogg Infestation - One sided wrath in T&L
1 Starstorm - Mass Removal, instant speed
1 electrolyze - Removal, and has 3 magic words: Draw a Card.
Utility Spells - 15
1 Reconstruction - Artifact reclamation
1 Shadow Rift - Draws a card, and makes unblockable
1 Reality Ripple - Best save spell in existence
1 Mind Games - Re useable Blue spell, and removes blockers.
1 Distortion Strike - Unblockable, x2.
1 Repulse - Removes a blocker, and has magic words.
1 Psychotic Fury - Double strike +magic words
1 Haze of Rage - Testing, reusable red spell, that pumps. And has storm.
1 Whim of Volrath - Reusable Blue spell, that triggers both abilities.
1 Past in Flames - Reuse the entire deck.
1 Gamble - Tutor
1 Fabricate - Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll - Tutor
1 Long-Term Plans - Tutor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker - Tutor
Card Draw - 15
1 Ignorant Bliss
1 Oona's Grace
1 Concentrate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Flash of Insight
1 Impulse
1 Peer Through Depths
1 Sift Through Sands
1 Trade Routes - another land filter, also saves lands.
1 Rhystic Study
Counters - 2
1 Arcane Denial - the two political counters in EDH. Both have magic words.
1 Dream Fracture
Mana Rocks + accel - 7
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Walking Atlas
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Paradise Plume - Life gain for stabilization. Choose 'blue' unless you need the red mana, or expect to do flame jab shananiganry.
1 Izzet Signet
sideboard
--------------
LANDS - 40
15 Snow-Covered Mountains
13 Snow-Covered Islands
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Temple of the false god
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Smoldering Spires
1 Tolaria West
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Mishra's Factory - man lands are always a good backup plan when running this many equipment
1 Blinkmoth Nexus - With evasion
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Terrain Generator - this deck draws cards. This puts them into play. It is made of win, and god.
Aven LiberatorYore-Tiller Nephilim
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Deep Slumber Titan I found to be quite comical as well.
I'd love to run a Sword of War and Peace, but I don't have one. You are right it would be amazing in the deck, and the pro-red would help a lot. As far as Light and Shadow, the creature recursion is certainly lessened, and I could put a lox in its place for lifegain, but I'm finding that white and black have the most targeted removal and flyers currently, so I'm like the protections.
I've been seeing a bunch of Karmic Guides, Reya, Bloodgift Demon, etc on the blocker side of things.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=294425
If you like those nutty pirates, try Thalakos Deceiver.
And no on-theme Electrolyze? I'm sure you can find room for that Cut something silly like Distortion Strike or Browbeat.
I see you've got a billion equips. I really liked Power Matrix because I could use it to give dudes flying when I had to and first-strike messes up combat all around the board.
When you have this many artifacts, Tezzeret the Seeker seems really, really good here. He can search up a mana rock or any equipment you want.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Your deck looks a lot like halfway in between both of what my builds currently are. There are a lot of good synergies in there, I took the death touch equipment out of this version, and I'm kind of happy with that, but Kaldra may go back in. All 3 pieces are strong.
I like the pirates a lot because they are repeatable theft, and all they lack is evasion, which T&L conveniently fixes! I don't know if I'll run Thalakos Deceiver in here, but thats for the add, I'll have to remember them for a few other decks, I like it a lot.
Electrolyze was in my previous build, centered around cheaper draw/cantrips, and I liked the feel of that better. I think I'm going to cut some equipment (since Godo can tutor, and more cantrips/impulse means ill get them sooner). This will let me abuse Diviner's Wand and the pike a lot more. The problem will be what to cut. Each equipment piece is exceedingly strong.
Power Matrix is nice, I'll have to keep it in mind, but giving only +1 makes it feel a bit weak to me, since T&L's power is the uivalent of fighting with pillows and feather dusters.
Tezzeret... Ah, I wish. He would be in here in a heartbeat. I don't own one, and do need one for this deck.
... So... some of the creatures were put in here as extra threats, I think they are unneeded, if T&L get tucked, I'll include more man-lands.
There's a lot of equipment. I think I need to cut the less necessary ones. Barbed Battlegear I've liked because it makes T&L a 3 turn clock... but with 2 toughness and a lack of first strike... makes them a bit easy to die. Gone.
A few more need to go, but it'll be harder to cut the others.
Dreamstone Hedron fits so many roles... but it's also ridiculously expensive to put out, that I think I need to cut it for a cheaper rock, especially If I fill up on brainstorms again.
So, I see where I want to go, but not quite how to get there. This may be a bit tricky, and there may be some hard cuts. I think, for example, that Sword of Fire and Ice may need to go. The pro-red is awesome for T&L so she doesn't hit herself, but I can prevent that first with a blue spell... except that pro-blue makes me unable to give them flying. Not good when we have an aggro general strategy. War and Peace would be nice here, but I don't have one. I like Sword of Light and Shadow's protections, but the abilities are decidedly weak. If I can get a war&peace, then I can put in feast&famine in its place for the pro-black, and a much better ability. That may be the path to go. Aggravated assault could then replace World at war. I'm typically not a fan of infinite combo's, but that interaction requires so much, and has so many way for an opponent to stop it that I'm not terribly concerned.
Upping the spell count I think is the right move for T&L, the pike, the devils, the past in flames, and the diviner's wand, which is the synergy I want to build into this deck.
Playing this version last night had some impressive plays (including a 28 point T&L attack, equipped with both Diviner's Wand and the Pike); but it still feels it's missing something.
I also need some form of permanent removal in the deck. I need to hunt down additional capsizes and chain of vapors to deal with annoying stuff.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I love using them as a commander too because no one takes you seriously until you've already won.
I may unsheathe my foil T+L and try this out at some point. I do still own all the cards...
Whoa. You know what could be a real beast here? Especially with Diviner's Wand? Cephalid Constable. Free equips for Wand and Greaves, then draw some cards and bounce someone's manabase. Awesome. He works really well with the things you're trying to do with T+L.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I'm a little concerned about his one toughness, since an errant red spell on an opponents turn means death, but I think that can be worked around in the deck construction.
I typically like Fork effects in red decks, to copy other peoples ramp and draw, but I don't think they are as needed in T&L due to already having plenty of draw. It'll make me less hesitant to drop Walking Atlas too if I have a higher Blue count.
One card missing from my mana-base is Terrain Generator. I have currently misplaced mine, so they aren't in the deck (I think one might be in my Vaevictus deck...) but are actually quite good at answering red and blue's lack of ramp.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
o_o
O_O
Sweet heaven would that have fit into the older version of this! That is exactly the kind of crazy interaction I was going for; I may have to add that to this one just for sheer amusement!
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Phyrexian Metamorph obviously can double up your equipment making it harder to remove them. Can also double as a copy effect for early Sol Rings. So damn versatile.
Phantasmal Image using him + Palinchron you can go infinite as it only costs 2 to cast the Image and 4 to bounce thus netting one mana per cycle. Add that to the possibility of that last card if you change Tibor's ability to both trigger off of blue spells you can just burn the house down on the spot. Plus the fact that he costs so little is amazing especially if you were just going to kill a legendary creature with it the cost of 2 mana is nuts.
EDIT: Ohhhh boy I just realized you are without Academy Ruins with all of that equipment.... seems like a shame. Also Metamorph is reusable off of the ruins as well.
EDIT 2: Vedalken Aethermage could give you an outlet to tutor up your commander if he gets tucked. Or you could just go with Gamble which can get anything. I just noticed that your plan B seems to be sort of inferior to slapping people with your commander.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
OUT
I cut out some of the more expensive to equip pieces of gear (or those that did less, like the battlegear) and the creatures in favor of more card draw, spells, and tutoring. This should get us to one of the major pieces of equipment faster, and go for the connection with the General.
I was a bit sad to pull the fork package, since I love copying ramp; but that may be too gimmicky for this deck, since we're casting a bunch of cheap stuff. I may put two back in (fork and reverberate), but I'm going to try without it for a bit.
IN
Cards that can still find a place, if I can find them:
- Deserted Temple - looks like I can never find enough of these.
- Shrine of - blue one. Gets ridiculous quite quickly, apparently. I don't like that it's not a spell. May have to test.
- Time Reversal - and other effects of this sort. Powers up the Diviner's wand, but weakens the pike. Also lets me reuse a bunch of spells. I'm pretty sure I can dig through my deck faster than anyone else.
- Inspiration - One less card than Concentrate, but instant speed... it's a thought.
- Academy Ruins - didn't find one, sad. I might not actually have one.
- Phyrexian Metamorph - because it's just too good to ignore.
Another thought is to replace all of the cards that 'put a card into hand,' with those that draw 3/discard 1 type of deals. The only equipment those power up though is the wand, the pike just cares about spells played, and the emyprial plate doesn't care how the cards got in hand, so I'm not too worried about it currently.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Also:
IN:
Gamble
Paradise Plume
Psychotic Fury
OUT:
Trade Secrets - an amazing card, absolutely deserving of the deck, but it causes ridiculously stupid situations to arise.
Pristine Talismna - for plume... yay.
Infiltration lens - once im being blocked, I don't really need more cards.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Buried Ruin
Tectonic Edge
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter
though I am concerned of diluting too much mana into colorless. I will play the deck tonight and see how much of an effect that would have. I may also add the Red and Blue original Karoos to help meet land drops early on. Late game should pose no problem though on land drops.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I like how the commander can be a source of control as well... I am almost tempted to dummy up a list and see what could come from it. You have some... interesting card choices though so I think I might make a few alters of my own.
Generally speaking most players dont FEAR Tibor & Lumia so I think it would be a fun list to mock up and see what it could do.
How would you compare your Tibor & Lumia in comparison to Riku? Is I know they are different lists but the sheer amount of play Riku sees sort of turns me off to him. I had been considering something a bit more rogue and this feels sort of like that. I dont want to go there though if Riku is just hands down better though... ehhh well I will get a list going and see what I can do...
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I was sort of wondering about a few of those myself... Sword of Kaldra could be good as well as it will exile all ground pounders but it is tricky to use as you need to fly your creatures first or it will kill them. Still... it is also a +5/+5 buff which sounds fantastic.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
1 Tibor and Lumia
Creatures - 4
1 Anger
1 River Kelpie
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Charmbreaker Devils
Equipment and Stuff - 6
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Empyrial Plate
1 Diviner's Wand
1 Quietus Spike
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Kaldra
Combat Steps - 2
1 Seize the Day
1 Savage Beating
Removal - 7
1 Flame Jab
1 Skred
1 Starstorm
1 Chaos Warp
1 Electrolyze
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mogg Infestation
1 Shadow Rift
1 Mind Games
1 Distortion Strike
1 Repulse
1 Fabricate
1 Psychotic Fury
1 Haze of Rage
1 Whim of Volrath
1 Past in Flames
1 Gamble
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Long-Term Plans
1 Mana Geyser
1 Ignite Memories
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
Card Draw - 14
1 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Ignorant Bliss
1 Oona's Grace
1 Concentrate
1 Compulsive Research
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Impulse
1 Peer Through Depths
1 Trade Routes
1 Rhystic Study
1 Arcane Denial
1 Remand
1 Dream Fracture
Mana Rocks + accel - 6
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Walking Atlas
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Izzet Signet
Well that would be some of the first changes I would make... I changed out most of the equipment but other than that it was just here and there things that I think I would slightly alter. I like the list though it seems like it could be fun. I will have to see if I can dummy it up sometime to see how it runs.
I also dropped Ignite Memories in as sort of a plan B as I think this deck could storm into killing some people without too much effort due to all the low costed draw spells. What do you think of adding something like Future Sight to the list as well??? With so much cheap draw I think it would do really good.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
This seems like a really good deck for storm, actually.
Shattering Pulse needs to find a slot too.
New potential direction: Whispers of the Muse, Searing touch, Memory Crystal, Ruby Medallion, Sapphire Medallion. Tempting...
I already have a few good buyback spells, and there are many more.
I ran those in the previous version, which had a larger emphasis on control using Tibor and Lumia's Red ability. Its a metadeck I keep in my thoughts with the general, especially if defense starts to be an issue. In the current version, I am going for a much more aggressive build, focused around T&L's blue ability, and around the spell pike, the diviners wand, and the empyrial plate. The Idea is to make T&L big, remove any blockers, and 2-shot someone. The card draw/tutoring is to get to that point.
For each of those equipment:
Basilisk Collar - Love the death touch, love the lifelink, hate that it doesn't help me kill players.
Gorgon Flail - too small a boost, and too small an effect.
Quietus Spike - I have considered bringing this one back, but the issue is that it loses power on subsequent hits. I usually tend to start getting really aggressive mid/mid-late game, and by then the spike doesn't do as much for me.
Neko-Te - seems interesting as a defensive control. I'll have to try it out. The problem I run into is if I somehow have to play a red spell with limited mana on an opponents turn, it may be hard to untap T&L. I'll definitely try and get one to playtest though.
ISB:
Sword of Kaldra - I have actually considered putting the set in here as great equipment and a backup plan, but it comes down to the sword being a huge threat, and also rather expensive. It was actually briefly in this version, but got cut for some tutoring power. I was a bit dissapointed recently at this decks lack of a bit of haste, so I'm re-evaluating certain equipment.
DT:
I considered some storm shananigans in the deck, but very few storm cards actually excited me for this deck. The only one that really excited me was ignite Memories, which I think is absolutely hilarious (and will probably go in). Temporal Fissure and Volcanic Awakening are both ridiculously powerful in this deck, and i think they may be 'unfun' for my meta.
I have been playtesting Haze of Rage as a repeatable red spell for cheap, as well as storm, and while I hate that it's a sorcery, it has gotten to impressive levels already, double casting it for +7 followed by +8 after a few brainstorm type cards.
The issue I have with top is that I filter through cards so quickly already, it doesn't do much outside of future sight. The issue I have with future sight is... it dies. Not much else is worth killing in this deck, that when I ran the sight, out of 7 casts, it never saw a second turn.
T&L is very... interesting... to balance. I forget whether this is the second or thrid General I built around (around the same time as Nemata), but I have rebuilt this deck on so many different themes, from the damaging equipment, to a heavy theft build, to this current Voltron monstrosity.
T&L is an interesting general with very interesting abilities. She triggers off of spell casts, but the effects are so minor that you really need to work around it to find a way that works. I opted to just go mass spells. Their pseudo-flying actually allows a spell slinging aggro route with the pike, which I think would be more difficult in Riku.
The main difference with Wydwen is the card draw mentality. Red adding in wheel effects makes for a very explosive draw situation, rather than the slower, more methodical method of black. Wydwen I'd expect to be a cooler, calmer, control commander. In T&L, I routinely get down to less than 20 cards in my library. This is hardly the only way to build the deck. A heavier focus on buyback, which I am currently considering, can give a very controlled, slower, solid style.
The reason for the massive spells right now was just the evolution of the deck. The first version was bout a normal paced deck, eventually, I got bored of doing things so slowly, and only triggering T&L once or twice a turn, and I dropped to cheap crap. It made explosive moments, but overall the effects were just too weak. I could wipe a board, but I'd do it with 8 mana, 5 spells, and some crazy stack manipulation. It was a very cluttered, highly amusing (for me) way of overcomplicating everything I did. I loved it. When I decided to challenge myself and a certain mentality I had about card value in EDH by trying to see if I could actually deck myself... T&L was the first and only choice for that. And it did even less, by doing even more. It's improved from that point, but it still has that mentality in its roots now.
The major difference from Riku is that T&L is not a blatant threat upon hitting the table. I make her one, almost immediately, but her own abilities don't say "I win." Truthfully speaking, if you want a 3/3 Flyer general who deals damage with a control element, Olivia Voldaren is better in every individual regard, with absolutely destructive colors, better abilities, and a better general overall. But something about the package deal makes T&L so much more fun to play, and rather surprisingly effective. I play the current deck very aggressively, and its a bit of a thrill to put the foot down on the gas, and never let up.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
The problem with Olivia is she is an obvious threat and has sort of low interaction with the rest of her deck. I don't like having commanders that must be answered as I like being the more subtle player in the game.
I really like the heavy draw aspect of this deck. In my mind the more things you get to do in a turn the more fun you are having with your deck. I would love to draw and play my whole deck every game as that sounds like it would be a blast. Not every spell has to have huge effect on the game to make them add up and that is sort of part of what I like about your Tibor & Lumia list. It isnt all about 1-2 spells it is about dropping a whole lot of them at once.
Even if someone tucks Tibor & Lumia I think the deck would be a lot of fun even without them as you just hit the gas pedal and see how far down you can dig and try to win anyways.
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[Modern] Allies
This is the exact mentality I embraced in building this deck. I still think my crowning moment was using something like 5-6 spells to wipe the board (when other deck would simply use a chain reaction.)
It went something like, blue spell to give T&L flying, Mogg Infestation to put a damage on everything and wipe one player out (he had a lot of flyers). Blue spell to give another creature flying (a 5/5). Thunderbolt it, putting a second damage on everything, Lightning bolt the 6/6 to kill it and all the 3/3's, leaving T&L and a 4/4 out (with 3 damage), which I burned a draw spell to get the last red spell to kill it. Somewhere in there someone path to exiled T&L, so the last bit of it was instant speed in response, to leave a completely empty board. I think I also gained a card in hand through all that. Deep Analysis may have been involved.
I always feel bad for the Mogg Infestation Goblins though. They are never long for the world.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
-Rhystic Study - this was a really hard cut, but I hate depending on this card, especially as it has gotten a bit of a bad rep in my group. Mainly because I use it, and it deserves it.
+Spellweaver Volute - crazy shenaniganry. Seems like fun! Have to try it out, its a bit anti-synnergistic with the pike, but since mostly ill be using it to repeat draw effects, looks like it could be fun.
-Trade Routes - I rarely re-use lands, and haven't really needed to protect anything for a while.
-Haze of Rage - It was fun, but not nearly enough of an effect. Too simple. Eventually I'll get an ignite memories to fill its spot, but for now...
+Swiftfoot Boots - haste! (and NOT shroud)
+Shrine of Piercing Visions - Since someone brought it up in the Hidden Gems thread, i thought I'd give it a shot. Looks like it could be insanely good in this deck.
-smoldering spires - ETB tapped, and limited usefulness
-tolaria west - I don't really have anything to tutor for.
-2 snow-covered mountain
-1 snow-covered island
+Strip Mine
+Ghost Quarter
+Tectonic Edge - anti maze of ith
+Scrying Sheets - I got Identity Crisis'd one game. It sucked. I don't see myself using this much, but it could be a decent backup if things go south. If I feel pressure from lack of colored mana later, I'll change it back.
+Buried Ruin - I think this is slowly being added to every deck I own.
-Starstorm - I'll play more red spells. I don't think I've ever actually cast this before.
-Grafted Exoskeleton - Conflicting win conditions. Does me no good and sets me back if destroyed.
+Unifying Theory and Horn of Plenty. More set up to moving towards buyback. New version number for it. (+awesome with spells played? We'll find out!) They are symmetrical, but I have an odd feeling that I can do it better. =P
Starting to consider re-adding Future Sight and/or the magus. I'm starting to become less worried about threat level, as this deck has a bit of a reputation in my playgroup. Also considering Memory Jar and magus as well, though less so.
Still thinking about the buyback version as well. I think that would be interesting. I think I have enough tutoring effects now to guarantee finding Memory Crystal.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
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[Modern] Allies