Stonecloaker seems good, I like him but haven't really had much use for him. I'm interested to see your list since it sounds like a slightly different take than my list or others that are similar to it.
List should be final within a week and I'll finish getting all the cardboard shortly after. I'll link back here when I do.
Its nice to know that this thread is useful for someone. But the list hasn't changed terribly. The list in the OP doesn't have a whole lot of protective measures, so I am playing around with taking out some of the under performing stuff to add some in. The list is still in a bit of flux so I haven't posted my thoughts since I haven't had a whole lot of time to test being finals and holidays and what not, but one of these days, one of these days.
Right now, as far as changes go, I can say that Defense Grid is going in and Abrupt Decay most likely is too, need to think about it next time I play and see how much I would be able use it. I keep looking at Smokestack, but I haven't actually put in there yet since it seems kinda slow for the deck.
Replenish never was that useful, and I'm always trying to drop the curve of the deck. Signets seem to be the least useful of my mana rock so they may make the cut, but I am unsure about them. Plus I have the testing slot to fill up so that's something too.
Edit: I also modified the OP a bit, and was wondering what people think.
I like your changes to the OP. Gives people unfamiliar with the deck a much better idea how to play it. I find this deck is so strong that games can easily turn into arch-enemy with the rest of the board trying to hate you out.
I agree with Abrupt Decay and Defense Grid. Adding the Grid to my deck today and am going to try to pick up the Decay.
Also, can you explain Ghave + Persist + Earthcraft? I don't think that works. If you sacrifice the persist creature you can't put the +1/+1 counter on it when it comes back into play. You would have to put the +1/+1 counter on Ghave or another creature.
On my thread I'm trying to spell out the combos I use and if you have time you might want to do the same in the OP.
I also use Smokestack in my Ghave deck to great effect. I run more token generators and multipliers then your deck so it might be more plausible in my deck. I usually let it float on 2-3 counters unless it comes down late game.
also, how many forests do you feel it takes to justify Rofellos? Original duals are the only restriction i have for decks so I am only currently running 6 forest cards. Should Rofellos still be in?
Also, can you explain Ghave + Persist + Earthcraft? I don't think that works. If you sacrifice the persist creature you can't put the +1/+1 counter on it when it comes back into play. You would have to put the +1/+1 counter on Ghave or another creature.
On my thread I'm trying to spell out the combos I use and if you have time you might want to do the same in the OP.
Ghave + Undying + Earthcraft (which may have been how he meant it)
..
Yeah, something like that, I had(have) a bad habit of posting in this thread really late at night and I should go back and fix all the errors sometime.
I also use Smokestack in my Ghave deck to great effect. I run more token generators and multipliers then your deck so it might be more plausible in my deck. I usually let it float on 2-3 counters unless it comes down late game.
also, how many forests do you feel it takes to justify Rofellos? Original duals are the only restriction i have for decks so I am only currently running 6 forest cards. Should Rofellos still be in?
I will agree having more tokens makes it stronger, and I'm not sure what the right number to have it sit on is, or if there is in fact one. As to Rofellos, with one forest, he is a rampant growth that dies to removal, after that point he becomes much stronger. I'd say if you can have 2 forests in play on turn 3 fairly often, then landing him early will be absolutely devastating. Now, this is with the duals, so I'm not sure what I'd advise, but I run 8 forests plus 3 fetches not counting the original duals. So either way I'm going to say that you need to have at least that many to start with if you want to run him. It probably wouldn't hurt to add at least a 5th basic, coming from my land base.
I have in fact, it works quite well. I my current build I haven't had a need for the extra win con, but if you feel the need, or don't want to run something else, it works wonderfully.
Can we really even abuse it easily? I can't think of anything that is less than a 4 card combo, or requires adding extra cards that don't do a lot other than work just with it.
This thread has officially been primer-fied. What that means, before this thread was mostly about the deck in the op but now don't be afraid to go more general. Now comes the list of things that I've been meaning to do here.
First, the stax deck that I said I've been going to add, I have had school, so it hasn't been developed as much as I like but it will come 'soon'.
Second, Gatecrash is a thing now and there where some cards that caught my eye as potentials so expect me to have a brief set discussion post once I go through the set to make sure I didn't miss anything.
Finally, that other important thing that I don't remember.
Believe it or not a lot of these cards have either been in here or the deck at one point, or are things that I've considered.
Now on a card by card basis, here's how I feel about each of them. Chromatic Lantern, I like this a lot. This deck can have some very demanding color requirements, and this goes a long way to solve those problems. I don't see much artifact destruction in my play group so I'm thinking about swapping this for Darksteel Ingot. I might not make the switch if you have a lot of Vindicate, its not an instant. That's the reason I'm going to say is why its not in my deck. In reality the only reason that it isn't is that I haven't taken the time to find one. Pattern Of Rebirth, I almost always forget this even exists so I don't know how I feel about it, but would love to hear if you've tried it. Noxious Revival, there are a lot of these kind of effects which have pros and cons. I think that I would run Regrowth over it, but it has many advantages too, mostly being an instant and potentially free. Defense Of The Heart, I don't like depending on opponents. Now it is obviously an absurdly powerful card, but you may find it sitting around for turns as opponents play around it. Contamination, this card is actually in the stax version and gives you an easy way to just shut the game down.
Of the other guys, Black Market and Martyr's Bond where both in here at one time, but I found that they just didn't perform that well. Now Sun Titan is a strong card, but reasons I'd be hesitant to run it(at least in a pure combo list); first it costs 6, which while not too bad I really feel like this deck gains little from having top end cards. Second, the power of him comes from the continuous advantage you gain from him over time. Now the farther you swing into stax territory, where the odds of games going longer gets larger, he becomes more and more appealing.
I hadn't really ever considered him. You rarely want to sacrifice the saprolings tokens themselves, so I don't think that he really does anything with most of the combos.
I hadn't really ever considered him. You rarely want to sacrifice the saprolings tokens themselves, so I don't think that he really does anything with most of the combos.
I have Utopia Mycon it in my build. In combination with either Juniper Order Ranger or Cathar's Crusade or Sigil Captain you can do an infinite loop. Make a token it gets a counter, pay a mana to remove the counter to make a token, which gets a counter, sac the first token to make a mana... It's like a limited third altar effect. With either Blood Artist or Falkenrath Noble on the board you win. With Lumberknott or anything else that cares about dying creatures or new creatures you also have fun. Of course Ghave has to be on the board for that to work.
The ease with which it can be searched is the only plus I can see for it. Otherwise it just makes a four card combo, and this deck should have plenty of three card combos so I don't know if it is worth the spot. However, I'd like to see your list to see what your running with it. I'm also going through Gatecrash now and will hopefully have a set review as it pertains to this deck in a little while.
So Gatecrash by color:
White:
Nothing looks good.
Black:
Nothing looks good.
Green: Ivy Lane Denizen: Combos with Ghave and Earthcraft. Also combos with Kitchen Finks and a sac outlet, will also work if they ever make more green persist cards worth playing. It is a targeted ability though, which gives opponents time to respond. Could be compared to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Ooze Flux: this combos with Ashnod's Altar and any undying creature. This makes it fairly narrow, since it relies on one other specific card but it does work I guess.
Multi:
Nothing looks good.
So...yeah, this set doesn't really do anything for us. I was hoping that there might be something, but the few things that could work are mostly bad versions of things we already had. Maybe next time...
The ease with which it can be searched is the only plus I can see for it. Otherwise it just makes a four card combo, and this deck should have plenty of three card combos so I don't know if it is worth the spot. However, I'd like to see your list to see what your running with it. I'm also going through Gatecrash now and will hopefully have a set review as it pertains to this deck in a little while.
So Gatecrash by color:
White:
Nothing looks good.
Black:
Nothing looks good.
Green: Ivy Lane Denizen: Combos with Ghave and Earthcraft. Also combos with Kitchen Finks and a sac outlet, will also work if they ever make more green persist cards worth playing. It is a targeted ability though, which gives opponents time to respond. Could be compared to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Ooze Flux: this combos with Ashnod's Altar and any undying creature. This makes it fairly narrow, since it relies on one other specific card but it does work I guess.
Multi:
Nothing looks good.
So...yeah, this set doesn't really do anything for us. I was hoping that there might be something, but the few things that could work are mostly bad versions of things we already had. Maybe next time...
My deck list isn't exactly optimized. It's more budget. I just threw some stuff together that has synergy. I'd rather stumble on a combo than build my deck around setting them up. It's more interactive that way which makes it more fun to play casually. I have other decks that are more aggressive.
This is the list, but it's not 100% up to date. I haven't sat down with the deck and updated the list I have online in a while. I don't have Mikeaus, and I don't have any of the persist creatures, but I love undying. Also I know I'm running Green Sun's Zenith, but it's not in this list. Can't remember what I cut for it. Also Braids was in here, but I moved her into a mono-black deck. (Same thing with Grave Pact). Oh and I'm missing Phyrexian Altar. I just haven't picked one up yet.
It only had a brief existence in my deck so it never made it in the OP cause I kinda forgot about it. Also, I'm working on you other request, but tis the season for mid terms so....yeah.
It only had a brief existence in my deck so it never made it in the OP cause I kinda forgot about it. Also, I'm working on you other request, but tis the season for mid terms so....yeah.
Oh ok I seen Earthcraft and I guess assumed you were running Squirrel Nest. I did find a bunch of interactions for Ghave here, as well as earlier in your thread. Would be nice to include potential combo choices as well.
Thanks for all your hard work it is appreciated.
EDIT:
Seen mention in the other Ghave thread about green only creature tutors, GSZ is solid so I would leave that in but Sylvan Tutor is a better Summoner's Pact IMO. Even though it's a sorcery, you most likely will have to tap out to pay for pact anyway so it doesn't seem faster.
Have you considered Bitterblossom? Seems like I'm constantly looking for something to Skullclamp, Diabolic Intent, Phyrexian Tower. (Might add Sakura-Tribe Elder Farseek replacement, and Weathered Wayfarer)
After Prime Time got the banhammer Cabal Coffers got significantly worse looking for something for something to put in its spot currently. Could add Weathered Wayfarer to help tutor it out if it stays in.
I don't have a whole lot time to answer this, so I'll either edit this or post another post to finish responding to your post. But as to the land relevant things, the only search card I was running was Sylvan Scrying to attempt to find half of the cofferburg, or at least that was my reasoning and it will probably be cut anyways. Otherwise, I feel like you don't want land search, so much as actual ramp, so I feel like things like tithe and weathered wayfarer are less suited to this kind of deck and belong in something that wants to play a longer game.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Saffi Eriksdooter, Sun Titan, and a sac outlet are an infinte combo, and in my opinion, they are better stand alone cards than Reveillark and Karmic Guide.
I love this primer, I have a Ghave deck as well I'm looking to upgrade. It would be great if you could possibly look at some budget changes for the deck as it is pretty expensive. The Saffi and Sun Titan seems to be a good budget alternative to Reveillark and Karmic Guide. But Sun Titan can only return one so he won't combo with Triskelion. Saffi can freely replace Karmic Guide in the combo though.
Also Karmic Guide grabs destroyed combo pieces from your graveyard, while Saffi can only protect your combos that are on the field.
List should be final within a week and I'll finish getting all the cardboard shortly after. I'll link back here when I do.
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EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
Right now, as far as changes go, I can say that Defense Grid is going in and Abrupt Decay most likely is too, need to think about it next time I play and see how much I would be able use it. I keep looking at Smokestack, but I haven't actually put in there yet since it seems kinda slow for the deck.
Stuff That might Go Out:
Replenish
Woodfall Primus
Signets
Replenish never was that useful, and I'm always trying to drop the curve of the deck. Signets seem to be the least useful of my mana rock so they may make the cut, but I am unsure about them. Plus I have the testing slot to fill up so that's something too.
Edit: I also modified the OP a bit, and was wondering what people think.
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I agree with Abrupt Decay and Defense Grid. Adding the Grid to my deck today and am going to try to pick up the Decay.
Also, can you explain Ghave + Persist + Earthcraft? I don't think that works. If you sacrifice the persist creature you can't put the +1/+1 counter on it when it comes back into play. You would have to put the +1/+1 counter on Ghave or another creature.
On my thread I'm trying to spell out the combos I use and if you have time you might want to do the same in the OP.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
also, how many forests do you feel it takes to justify Rofellos? Original duals are the only restriction i have for decks so I am only currently running 6 forest cards. Should Rofellos still be in?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
It does not work with just these 3, it requires some other piece, Ashnod's Altar or Mana Reflection/Mirari's Wake.
It does however work this way:
Ghave + Undying + Earthcraft (which may have been how he meant it)
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Yeah, something like that, I had(have) a bad habit of posting in this thread really late at night and I should go back and fix all the errors sometime.
I will agree having more tokens makes it stronger, and I'm not sure what the right number to have it sit on is, or if there is in fact one. As to Rofellos, with one forest, he is a rampant growth that dies to removal, after that point he becomes much stronger. I'd say if you can have 2 forests in play on turn 3 fairly often, then landing him early will be absolutely devastating. Now, this is with the duals, so I'm not sure what I'd advise, but I run 8 forests plus 3 fetches not counting the original duals. So either way I'm going to say that you need to have at least that many to start with if you want to run him. It probably wouldn't hurt to add at least a 5th basic, coming from my land base.
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G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Can we really even abuse it easily? I can't think of anything that is less than a 4 card combo, or requires adding extra cards that don't do a lot other than work just with it.
What where you thinking though?
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Chromatic Lantern
Vindicate
Pattern Of Rebirth
Noxious Revival
Defense Of The Heart
Contamination Might take some thinking but very powerful
Expensive cost
Sun Titan
Black Market
Martyr's Bond
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
Awesome sig by the one and only DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios
Believe it or not a lot of these cards have either been in here or the deck at one point, or are things that I've considered.
Now on a card by card basis, here's how I feel about each of them.
Chromatic Lantern, I like this a lot. This deck can have some very demanding color requirements, and this goes a long way to solve those problems. I don't see much artifact destruction in my play group so I'm thinking about swapping this for Darksteel Ingot. I might not make the switch if you have a lot of
Vindicate, its not an instant. That's the reason I'm going to say is why its not in my deck. In reality the only reason that it isn't is that I haven't taken the time to find one.
Pattern Of Rebirth, I almost always forget this even exists so I don't know how I feel about it, but would love to hear if you've tried it.
Noxious Revival, there are a lot of these kind of effects which have pros and cons. I think that I would run Regrowth over it, but it has many advantages too, mostly being an instant and potentially free.
Defense Of The Heart, I don't like depending on opponents. Now it is obviously an absurdly powerful card, but you may find it sitting around for turns as opponents play around it.
Contamination, this card is actually in the stax version and gives you an easy way to just shut the game down.
Of the other guys, Black Market and Martyr's Bond where both in here at one time, but I found that they just didn't perform that well. Now Sun Titan is a strong card, but reasons I'd be hesitant to run it(at least in a pure combo list); first it costs 6, which while not too bad I really feel like this deck gains little from having top end cards. Second, the power of him comes from the continuous advantage you gain from him over time. Now the farther you swing into stax territory, where the odds of games going longer gets larger, he becomes more and more appealing.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Level 1 Judge
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
I have Utopia Mycon it in my build. In combination with either Juniper Order Ranger or Cathar's Crusade or Sigil Captain you can do an infinite loop. Make a token it gets a counter, pay a mana to remove the counter to make a token, which gets a counter, sac the first token to make a mana... It's like a limited third altar effect. With either Blood Artist or Falkenrath Noble on the board you win. With Lumberknott or anything else that cares about dying creatures or new creatures you also have fun. Of course Ghave has to be on the board for that to work.
So Gatecrash by color:
White:
Nothing looks good.
Black:
Nothing looks good.
Green:
Ivy Lane Denizen: Combos with Ghave and Earthcraft. Also combos with Kitchen Finks and a sac outlet, will also work if they ever make more green persist cards worth playing. It is a targeted ability though, which gives opponents time to respond. Could be compared to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed.
Ooze Flux: this combos with Ashnod's Altar and any undying creature. This makes it fairly narrow, since it relies on one other specific card but it does work I guess.
Multi:
Nothing looks good.
So...yeah, this set doesn't really do anything for us. I was hoping that there might be something, but the few things that could work are mostly bad versions of things we already had. Maybe next time...
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
Awesome sig by the one and only DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios
My deck list isn't exactly optimized. It's more budget. I just threw some stuff together that has synergy. I'd rather stumble on a combo than build my deck around setting them up. It's more interactive that way which makes it more fun to play casually. I have other decks that are more aggressive.
This is the list, but it's not 100% up to date. I haven't sat down with the deck and updated the list I have online in a while. I don't have Mikeaus, and I don't have any of the persist creatures, but I love undying. Also I know I'm running Green Sun's Zenith, but it's not in this list. Can't remember what I cut for it. Also Braids was in here, but I moved her into a mono-black deck. (Same thing with Grave Pact). Oh and I'm missing Phyrexian Altar. I just haven't picked one up yet.
1 Ghave, Guru of Spores
Creatures [37]
1 Acidic Slime
1 Ageless Entity
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Blood Artist
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Butcher Ghoul
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Emeria Angel
1 Eternal Witness
1 Evernight Shade
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Fallen Angel
1 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1 Juniper Order Ranger
1 Korozda Guildmage
1 Kozilek's Predator
1 Lumberknot
1 Mycoloth
1 Nantuko Husk
1 Nest Invader
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Plagued Rusalka
1 Primordial Hydra
1 Protean Hydra
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Requiem Angel
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Sightless Ghoul
1 Sigil Captain
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Unruly Mob
1 Utopia Mycon
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Young Wolf
1 Elspeth Tirel
Spells [27]
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Attrition
1 Aura Shards
1 Birthing Pod
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fecundity
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Golgari Germination
1 Growth Spasm
1 Hour of Reckoning
1 Martyr's Bond
1 Mortify
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Path to Exile
1 Putrefy
1 Ranger's Path
1 Regrowth
1 Righteous Aura
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Unburial Rites
1 Vessel of Endless Rest
1 White Sun's Zenith
Lands [34]
1 Bant Panorama
1 Brushland
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Command Tower
1 Elfhame Palace
1 Evolving Wilds
6 Forest
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Graypelt Refuge
1 Kabira Crossroads
1 Mirrodin's Core
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4 Plains
1 Rupture Spire
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Strip Mine
4 Swamp
1 Temple of the False God
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Vivid Grove
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Vivid Meadow
Also what do you think of
Ogre Slumlord
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
Awesome sig by the one and only DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Oh ok I seen Earthcraft and I guess assumed you were running Squirrel Nest. I did find a bunch of interactions for Ghave here, as well as earlier in your thread. Would be nice to include potential combo choices as well.
Thanks for all your hard work it is appreciated.
EDIT:
Seen mention in the other Ghave thread about green only creature tutors, GSZ is solid so I would leave that in but Sylvan Tutor is a better Summoner's Pact IMO. Even though it's a sorcery, you most likely will have to tap out to pay for pact anyway so it doesn't seem faster.
Have you considered Bitterblossom? Seems like I'm constantly looking for something to Skullclamp, Diabolic Intent, Phyrexian Tower. (Might add Sakura-Tribe Elder Farseek replacement, and Weathered Wayfarer)
I run Tithe in all my other multicolor decks.
After Prime Time got the banhammer Cabal Coffers got significantly worse looking for something for something to put in its spot currently. Could add Weathered Wayfarer to help tutor it out if it stays in.
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
Awesome sig by the one and only DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Also Karmic Guide grabs destroyed combo pieces from your graveyard, while Saffi can only protect your combos that are on the field.
Also quick corretion: Who's Kradador? I think you mean Karador, Ghost Chieftain