@NineInchNall Thanks for stopping by. Do you mind posting your Niv 3.0 list if you have one? Rough draft is fine.
Speaking of Comet Storm, I cut it about a year ago. In four years of playing it, I'd cast it twice without already having my deck in my hands. In that situation, I can win without it, so it went buh-bye.
Yeah, this has bothered me too, and I have considered cutting it many times. The reason I haven't I guess is that it's such a simple and elegant win-con. Like you said above, other win-cons can get tedious and convoluted. But I'm curious as to what your preferred win-con is when you have your library in your hand if it's not Inner Fire / Comet Storm?
A possible alternative I've considered is swapping out both of those cards for Spiraling Embers and making sure I can copy or recur it indefinitely. That would at least free up one slot while still offering us a simple and elegant win con. Unlike Comet Storm and Inner Fire, Spiraling Embers actually hits pretty hard on it's own and so can be used earlier to more effect even if we don't have our library in our hands. It's also a bit less fragile since if either Comet Storm or Inner Fire gets exiled it renders the other half of the combo much less useful. It can also totally knock a player out on it's own without being recurred or copied. You just need 40 cards in hand. If you CAN recur or copy it at least once, you only need 20 cards in hand to kill one player.
With how quickly they accelerate you to Archive/Engine/Lotus/Omniscience/Sphinx, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith are still bonkers. They also make great Transmute Artifact fodder for fetching one of the 5-drop artifacts, especially Grim.
That's a fair point but I think the situation we were trying to avoid is needing to cast Niv 3.0 and having just those colorless mana rocks out with nothing else to cast. In my above list, I simply swapped out Monolith and Vault for Coalition Relic and Chromatic Lantern. I may still need to add something like Prismatic Lens or Izzet Signet. I feel pretty good about those swaps because sometimes I struggle to get the colors I need. It sucks to just lack one U for a counterspell.
Commit // Memory definitely looks solid, albeit a bit inefficient CMC wise. I think I will be picking one up. I would certainly use it over Venser or Time Reversal
Yeah, this has bothered me too, and I have considered cutting it many times. The reason I haven't I guess is that it's such a simple and elegant win-con. Like you said above, other win-cons can get tedious and convoluted. But I'm curious as to what your preferred win-con is when you have your library in your hand if it's not Inner Fire / Comet Storm?
Oh, agreed. It's so straightforward that it feels really final. For me, the key was just that once the deck was in hand, it was pretty trivial to cast Niv if he wasn't already out (Inner Fire -> rocks -> Omniscience or Mind Over Matter) and enough one-sided card draw (e.g., Mindmoil or Whirlpool Warrior) to deal pretty much arbitrary damage. While I was running Venser, I preferred to cast him with Omniscience+Mindmoil+Niv, then let Venser bounce himself and repeat until the table was dead.
That's a fair point but I think the situation we were trying to avoid is needing to cast Niv 3.0 and having just those colorless mana rocks out with nothing else to cast. In my above list, I simply swapped out Monolith and Vault for Coalition Relic and Chromatic Lantern. I may still need to add something like Prismatic Lens or Izzet Signet. I feel pretty good about those swaps because sometimes I struggle to get the colors I need. It sucks to just lack one U for a counterspell.
Two thoughts here. First, I feel like we've gotten a little spoiled by the tuck rule change. We should be able to win without casting Niv except on our winning turn. Second, at least in my experience, Niv.3 can be cast pretty consistently on or before turn six. I've had him out turn three, and I've played only about ten test games. I've also just straight won turn two off of Sol Ring + Izzet Signet + DramaticScepter.
Niv-Mizzet, Parun has me very excited! I am happy to see so much activity on here again, welcome back team!
I put together a list that was in between Rowan's and Benjameenbear's, swaying more towards Benjameenbear's. We don't really have the tools to control the board that well and we are still a combo deck at heart, although I am still going to try running Vedalken Orrery. Most games we are still probably going to win without casting Niv-Mizzet, Parun.
Combo Win Conditions
I like the turn we took moving towards Isochron Scepter combos. This opens up so many new possibilities for win conditions, all of the combo pieces are useful on their own, and we can tutor every piece of the combo. Because of our heavy investment in artifacts; Whir of Invention, Tezzeret, the Seeker, Transmute Artifact, and Reshape are great. Then when we add these artifact tutors I am liking Alhammarret's Archive a lot more. I also kept in Mana Vault and Grim Monolith since we have more of an emphasis on artifacts we can still use the colorless mana, we have ways to untap them, and we can sacrifice them for our tutors.
Card Draw/Hand Fattening
I still think Consecrated Sphinx is one of the best blue commander cards. Rhystic Study has such a strong effect that I don't think we could do without it. Alhammarret's Archive was good before and now has increased synergy with our more artifact based build. I loved the Firebrand Archer/Guttersnipe combo with Curiosity/Ophidian Eye, I haven't tried it out yet but it sounds great so I included all four of these.
I only play commander on paper so I have limited exposure to commander games. I will test these changes and let you guys know my thoughts on specific cards as I go.
Yeah, this has bothered me too, and I have considered cutting it many times. The reason I haven't I guess is that it's such a simple and elegant win-con. Like you said above, other win-cons can get tedious and convoluted. But I'm curious as to what your preferred win-con is when you have your library in your hand if it's not Inner Fire / Comet Storm?
Oh, agreed. It's so straightforward that it feels really final. For me, the key was just that once the deck was in hand, it was pretty trivial to cast Niv if he wasn't already out (Inner Fire -> rocks -> Omniscience or Mind Over Matter) and enough one-sided card draw (e.g., Mindmoil or Whirlpool Warrior) to deal pretty much arbitrary damage. While I was running Venser, I preferred to cast him with Omniscience+Mindmoil+Niv, then let Venser bounce himself and repeat until the table was dead.
That's a fair point but I think the situation we were trying to avoid is needing to cast Niv 3.0 and having just those colorless mana rocks out with nothing else to cast. In my above list, I simply swapped out Monolith and Vault for Coalition Relic and Chromatic Lantern. I may still need to add something like Prismatic Lens or Izzet Signet. I feel pretty good about those swaps because sometimes I struggle to get the colors I need. It sucks to just lack one U for a counterspell.
Two thoughts here. First, I feel like we've gotten a little spoiled by the tuck rule change. We should be able to win without casting Niv except on our winning turn. Second, at least in my experience, Niv.3 can be cast pretty consistently on or before turn six. I've had him out turn three, and I've played only about ten test games. I've also just straight won turn two off of Sol Ring + Izzet Signet + DramaticScepter.
Allow me to chime in here with my preferred win condition. Once I have my deck in hand, I prefer to cast Paradox Engine, some cheap mana rocks, and imprint Lightning Bolt to Isochron Scepter and Bolt the table to crispy cinders with Niv's electrifying magnificence along with a backup Fish Bowl Death Star. Really, though, it's whatever you want at that point. I think [CARD}Inner Fire[/CARD] has a little bit more variance in how useful it is at any given point of a game, so I don't really prefer it. I believe my win conditions to be more synergistic with the deck as a whole, but it again comes down to preference methinks.
I'm personally a firm advocate of running Cursed Totem if your deck can support it. The number of combos it shuts off, in addition to the number of mana dorks, makes it one of the strongest Stax pieces in my Teferi list. It is a SERIOUS pain to deal with as an opponent against the card (I have a Zacama, Primal Calamity deck that HATES this card), and I find I have to spend quite a few resources trying to find some way to get it off the table. The other Stax pieces are a little more niche, depending on your meta, but are otherwise generally effective. It does, however, take up a precious card slot which is always the hardest thing to accommodate in this format...
Niv-Mizzet, Parun has me very excited! I am happy to see so much activity on here again, welcome back team!
I put together a list that was in between Rowan's and Benjameenbear's, swaying more towards Benjameenbear's. We don't really have the tools to control the board that well and we are still a combo deck at heart, although I am still going to try running Vedalken Orrery. Most games we are still probably going to win without casting Niv-Mizzet, Parun.
Combo Win Conditions
I like the turn we took moving towards Isochron Scepter combos. This opens up so many new possibilities for win conditions, all of the combo pieces are useful on their own, and we can tutor every piece of the combo. Because of our heavy investment in artifacts; Whir of Invention, Tezzeret, the Seeker, Transmute Artifact, and Reshape are great. Then when we add these artifact tutors I am liking Alhammarret's Archive a lot more. I also kept in Mana Vault and Grim Monolith since we have more of an emphasis on artifacts we can still use the colorless mana, we have ways to untap them, and we can sacrifice them for our tutors.
Card Draw/Hand Fattening
I still think Consecrated Sphinx is one of the best blue commander cards. Rhystic Study has such a strong effect that I don't think we could do without it. Alhammarret's Archive was good before and now has increased synergy with our more artifact based build. I loved the Firebrand Archer/Guttersnipe combo with Curiosity/Ophidian Eye, I haven't tried it out yet but it sounds great so I included all four of these.
I only play commander on paper so I have limited exposure to commander games. I will test these changes and let you guys know my thoughts on specific cards as I go.
Glad that the comments are helping you, comrade!
I'm curious as to how the Curiosity/Guttersnipe package plays out for you. I had a game last night where I got this package online for a turn cycle and I drew 6 cards off of 3 spells (was playing a 3 man game). I did ultimately lose that game (because my wife's Kaalia deck cast Boil against my all-Island mana base followed up with a Hellkite Tyrant to steal my mana rocks), I still felt like if I had the chance to take just one more turn cycle I would have been able to combo off (the 6 cards included some undercosted mana rocks and a tutor for Paradox Engine). I've seen this principle (enchanting Pingers with Curiosity effects) taken to an extreme in a couple of Nekusar lists for an absurd amount of card draw, and I think the idea is pretty strong in this deck as well.
On a different note, how are you guys surviving with so little spot removal? It personally boggles my mind, since I rely so heavily on it, as to how you can effectively deal with other players' threats. I prefer to have MORE spot removal rather than less since it affords me an opportunity to play more aggressively into my combo (spot removal costs MUCH less than the mass removal effects available in Izzet colors).
EDIT: Future Sight and Paradox Engine can be a ridiculously powerful way to churn through your deck, given enough mana rocks on your board. Something to consider as you evaluate Future Sight.
Game 1
I got a great opener; Turn 1 - Sol Ring, Land, Mox Diamond, Wheel of Fortune. I easily won on turn 4 from that position, getting an early Paradox Engine down and casting draw spells until I found a win.
Game 2
Almost the same hand as game one, I announced what my intend play was and cast my Wheel of Fortune then passed the turn with no mana open while I was fetching and before I resolved the Wheel of Fortune in the hopes of saving time. I ended up drawing Mox Opal and Chrome Mox along with Swan Song. My opponent cast Null Rod and because I prematurely passed my turn, I was unable to counter it with Swan Song. I missed land drops and durdled until I lost.
Overall
The deck felt incredibly strong, stronger than the past although I don't think I have a large enough sample size. My opening hands in each game seemed amazing and I don't know if that will be a consistent theme.
The last game I would have had an easy win if I decided to cast All is Dust then go for the win the next turn, lesson learned. But I also would like to say that a piece of spot removal would not have helped me there while mass removal would have. 1 point to mass removal, spot removal 0.
Man, I really don't have much time these days. A lot of good stuff being said, and thanks for joining in the conversation Sky God. I like where you are going with this.
Turn 3 cast Chrome Mox, Transmute Artifact on Grim Monolith using its mana and UU to get Alhammarret's Archive, cast Personal Tutor to get Reforge the Soul then when someone did not pay the tax on Rhystic Study, I drew Reforge the Soul on someone else's turn and cast it using its miracle cost.
Unless I missing something, if you didn't have a flash enabler out, this doesn't work since Reforge is a sorcery.
I decided to Pact of Negation it then kill him with Niv-Mizzet, Parun triggers so Pact of Negation would fizzle and I wouldn't have to pay the upkeep cost, I picked up Force of Will from the draw. Next opponent cast a creature that threatened to kill me and I had to Force of Will it, a few triggers from that killed off his creatures (ten more cards in deck).
I'm wondering why you didn't just draw your library. You should have enough answers to deal with literally anything, not to mention kill at least 2 players (I don't know what the life totals were but I'm assuming they were close to 40 since it was only turn 4.)
I'm personally a firm advocate of running Cursed Totem if your deck can support it. The number of combos it shuts off, in addition to the number of mana dorks, makes it one of the strongest Stax pieces in my Teferi list. It is a SERIOUS pain to deal with as an opponent against the card (I have a Zacama, Primal Calamity deck that HATES this card), and I find I have to spend quite a few resources trying to find some way to get it off the table. The other Stax pieces are a little more niche, depending on your meta, but are otherwise generally effective. It does, however, take up a precious card slot which is always the hardest thing to accommodate in this format...
I do think that Stax is a valid direction to take this deck, especially when it comes to specific threats that we can have difficulty dealing with. Since we have no real creatures to speak of, we are pretty vulnerable to them. I do think that something like Propaganda would not be too out of place here. Artifacts are definitely our preference however. If you can think of some good artifact stax pieces, please list them. I feel these should probably be things that protect us, rather than shutting down the whole table, as that very clearly paints a target on our head.
I think I'm going to give the Spiraling Embers thing a try. Nobody has said anything about that yet, but I'm hopeful. I've personally never liked win-cons that depend on permanents for this list. I find them to be too fragile. My instincts tell me that Spiraling Embers will work well with the recursion package that we already have. I like embers because it's the last thing people expect from a deck like this. I think it works better than the Inner Fire / Comet Storm kill, and it frees up one slot. I still totally plan on including the Paradox Engine / Scepter package as well, as I feel that to be pretty strong.
I have to give credit to FireStorm4056 for this one but As Foretold is really amazing for this deck. I will definitely be slotting this in to give it a try. At the very least, it makes all of our counters Force of Wills once per turn. Yes, you heard that correctly. I would also like to point out that this card combos amazingly well with Vedalken Orrery and Leyline of Anticipation allowing you to cast ANY one spell on EACH of our opponent's turns for 0. I see a lot of value here and more of a reason to include at least one flash enabler. My vote would be Orrey since we can tutor for it and recur it. Yes, this becomes a huge target when people realize what it does for us, but it also doesn't hurt that bad to lose it. Overall, I would probably slot this in over Omniscience because it is more usable early game. The one thing I DON'T like about this card, is that it is a horrible late game top deck. It's also not easy to tutor for, and we probably wouldn't tutor for it anyway over other things with our precious tutors that CAN grab it.
@Sky God
Nice game reports and very nice opening hands. Sorry about Game 2. Do note that you can't counter Artifacts with Swan Song sadly. What is the Omnath combo that you mention? I haven't played against a dedicated Mad-Nath Combo deck and I'd like to be familiar with it.
@Rowan
The Miracle mechanic is super weird. Even though Reforge the Soul is indeed a sorcery, and should only be able to be cast on your turn, the Miracle trigger actually circumvents that. As long as it's the first card drawn during that turn, regardless of WHOSE turn it is, you can cast that spell irrespective of the spell's normal timing restrictions via its Miracle cost. It's one of the reasons that the Miracles legacy deck was so broken. You could cast Entreat the Angels during an opponents turn and pretty much kill them on your turn while holding up mana for interaction. Here's a link for the explanation of the mechanic for clarification.
EDIT: As Foretold takes a long time to get to 2 counters, when your counterspells become Force of Wills. If you're planning to embrace a more long-term strategy and control the game then it's a decent card. Otherwise, it is quite slow. I tried it in my Dralnu list and almost immediately cut it because it was a do-nothing card that took too much time to eventually pay off. Not to mention being a terrible top-deck, as you've noted. Adding in a Stax package will help buy time for this deck in general and will make As Foretold stronger as well.
I'm wondering why you didn't just draw your library. You should have enough answers to deal with literally anything, not to mention kill at least 2 players (I don't know what the life totals were but I'm assuming they were close to 40 since it was only turn 4.)
I had less then 80 cards in my library and everyone else was pretty much at 40. I was the target at the table for all attacks. I killed the one player with my draws off of the Pact of Negation cast, I drew Force of Will and decided to only draw enough to kill one player so I could have some flexibility if I want to kill a small creature or something. I used Force of Will on one of my second opponent's spells and I don't run any other free spells like Foil. I should have killed a different player than I used my Pact of Negation on.
@Sky God
Nice game reports and very nice opening hands. Sorry about Game 2. Do note that you can't counter Artifacts with Swan Song sadly. What is the Omnath combo that you mention? I haven't played against a dedicated Mad-Nath Combo deck and I'd like to be familiar with it.
Oh, well that's good to know. It's my first time playing with Swan Song.
Now with three empty slots I am going to try Rebuild to try and protect our fancy new artifacts a little bit more and act as disruption for others. I am going to put back in Enter the Infinite because we win when we draw our entire deck and this is just one of the best ways to do that especially since we added more mana rocks and it works so well with Mizzix's Mastery and Intuition. Lastly, I'm going to put in another counterspell, not sure which one to go with though, I'll probably just put in a Flusterstorm for cheap disruption and protection.
Since I didn't put up my decklist last time, here it is. A good mix of Rowan's and Benjameen's. Let me know if I missed some major point/cards that are crucial to your specific deck as well as general thoughts on specific card choices.
Looks good, Sky God. Yeah, the damage pingers were pretty useless in hand without the attendant Curiosity effects to go alongside them in the two games I've tested with this Niv-Mizzet list (I took apart my Nicol Bolas list to free up sleeves for the Parun). They're much better with Nekusar as the Commander, since he's already a Pinger and works well with Curiosity for incremental card advantage.
Otherwise, the list looks really good to me. Do report back on additional games you play!
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this card, but Reality Scramble has been an absolute powerhouse in my own list. Turning your Rhystic Study into an Omniscience or your Snapcaster Mage into a Consecrated Sphinx feels super good and happens very often. And even if you get a bad flip, you can still retrace Reality Scramble from your graveyard (which also makes wheeling it a moot point).
It may require slight adjustments in a list to ensure maximum efficiency from the card, but I couldn't imagine playing my Niv-Mizzet deck without it.
You know, Reality Scramble is a card that I was intially excited about and then forgot about. Granted, I was trying to break it with Keranos and Omniscience, but I forget that it's still a really good value spell. If you build your deck right, then cycling away an artifact or enchantment or creature for a new one will always be good.
Good look, snowfox.
In other news, the Parun version of Niv is breaking Standard right now. It's basically the Control finisher of choice now, with more raw power than Teferi. How awesome is that?
Hey, where did everyone go? Has no one thought about the implications of Thousand-Year Storm in Niv?
I'm posting a new list that I want to try out. I was toying with a 4 Color Storm list headed by Yidris but I really like the draw power that the Parun offers. So, this is what I think I'm going to test:
The goal of the deck is very similar to my previous list but instead includes Thousand-Year Elixir so that I can copy Lightning Bolt 15+ times or cast an Explosion for X >= 5 10+ times. Then there is the normal combo lines of Dramatic Scepter, Paradox Engine, and Curiosity.
I love the look of that. For me I'd add just a couple of creatures as you never know when they will come in handy. Maybe your opponent gives himself hexproof and you can't quite remove it? I dunno, just in case, that's my nature... Anyway Arjun, the Shifting Flame and Chasm Skulker worth looking at.
And if you play multiplayer, Consecrated Sphinx would be a must include for that deck I'd think.
That seems to be a very corner case. There are only a few player-hexproof granting permanents in the game. All of them can be handled by an overloaded Cyclonic Rift or shouldn't really resolve due to Counterspells. And if all else fails, there's always Laboratory Maniac to win regardless of whether or not a player has hexproof.
Consecrated Sphinx is a good one. I flip between it and Azami in the deck. The Sphinx draws more cards over the course of a game but Azami fuels the Paradox turn better than the Sphinx could. I've also contemplated cutting Reforge the Soul since it often seems like I have a redundancy of Wheel effects in hand.
I have always been a fan of Commit // Memory in any Izzet/draw decks, because of its versatility. Yes, you may lock yourself out of using Memory if you have Grafdigger's Cage in play, but the ability to deny any spell from resolving is pretty powerful. And if cage ISN'T on the battlefield, Parun gives you some love.
That's a good idea. I often forget about the split cards from the Amonkhet block. Commit // Memory is definitely a good option because of its versatility and because it acts as a functional Timetwister effect and adds another layer of control without chewing up more slots. It can even be used on your own permanents in order to get the Timetwister effect when needed.
Chasm Skulker helps you deal with creatures. It's so efficient at it, get big then give chump blockers. But anyway, you alone know if your meta needs it.
I have always been a fan of Commit // Memory in any Izzet/draw decks, because of its versatility.
Commit // Memory seems like a worse card on both turns than all of our other options. The only real plus side is that it's like two cards in one. The first part is very over priced just to delay a card and the aftermath costs three more than we want it to.
Chasm Skulker helps you deal with creatures. It's so efficient at it, get big then give chump blockers. But anyway, you alone know if your meta needs it.
As for Chasm Skulker, it seems slow for a not great effect. Instead of creating chump blockers, why not run board sweepers instead? I even think Propaganda is better than it. Like you said though, depends on your meta.
Consecrated Sphinx is a good one. I flip between it and Azami in the deck. The Sphinx draws more cards over the course of a game but Azami fuels the Paradox turn better than the Sphinx could.
Lastly, Consecrated Sphinx vs. Azami, Lady of Scrolls. This one is pretty close. As I will be talking about below, I am going to be moving away from the combo and cutting Paradox Engine. I've been playing with it for a little bit and it feels a little slow. I have always liked Consecrated Sphinx, it's a very strong card that requires an answer. Also, we have a lot colorless rocks that can be utilized in paying Consecrated Sphinx's 4 colorless.
I haven't played commander in a while but then I got back into it last night. I played in a pod with three other combo players. While this may not be the ordinary makeup of a pod, I do think that combo is the most popular competitive EDH deck.
I have always looked to make my Niv-Mizzet, Parun deck as competitive as possible and I always knew that Niv wasn't nearly as strong as other combo decks that had green or black in them, but I always managed to win games despite that. I think it's finally time for me to move away from Rowan's original list. I think it's going to be more of a control deck that focuses more on using Niv-Mizzet, Parun to gain board control and card advantage. I don't know how it will work out, but I will try to keep you guys updated and if anyone has any comments/suggestions/questions please respond and let's talk.
A couple of big changes I'm probably going to make:
Wheels
When I'm at the table with other combo players; they can usually get to their combo faster, empty their hand faster, then they either win or their out of the game for a couple turns. Cards like Wheel of Fortune helped the other people at the table much more than it helped me. Instead of wheels, I'm going to running more hand fattening cards.
Tutors/Extra Turn Effects/Recursion
Since I'm moving away from full combo and I'm adding anti-synergies with cards like Stranglehold, I don't need tutors/extra turns/recursion as much as I did before. I am going to replace these with removal, counters, or hand fattening cards.
Removal/Counters
To try and stop others from winning before I do, since I will be going down a slower route, I am going to have like 30 cards of removal, artifact removal, Counterspells, and various other disruption. I am going to bring in a lot of "free" spells (such as Force of Will, Misdirection, Pact of Negation, Snapback and Submerge) for disruption and protection so I can tap out and still be able to have a response to someone trying to win or to protect my board. They will also work more with Niv-Mizzet, Parun so I can tap out to cast him and then protect him with the "free" spells. Might try out As Foretold too, especially since it's CMC, I can cast Niv as long as it has six counters no matter how much tax is on him. Seems too slow though.
All these changes are pretty speculative that I really don't know how it will work out. Like I said; if anyone has any comments/suggestions/questions please respond and let's talk.
Commit // Memory seems like a worse card on both turns than all of our other options. The only real plus side is that it's like two cards in one. The first part is very over priced just to delay a card and the aftermath costs three more than we want it to.
I agree/disagree. I agree that Memory costs quite a bit...I can count on one hand the number of times I've cast that side. But it's there, and since this isn't G or B, any kind of graveyard recursion(ESPECIALLY since we're in RU) strikes me as pretty important, particularly because Niv 3.0 needs them spells coming. It might help if you think of Memory as an 'emergency restock', though in a properly tuned Izzet deck, this should never be a concern.
Commit, I believe your point is wrong, however. It has mostly the same ability as Venser, Shaper Savant(for the same, but less restrictive CMC, I might add), and while he's good because he can be blinked repeatedly, that doesn't make Commit any less relevant. Its usefulness DOES depend on the meta(keeping spells on track, watching out for that tree, OOOH!), but I've rarely been unhappy with it. In a crazy, combo-centric game where everything is trying to go off 'just so', I've seen it be the monkey wrench that throws the rhythm of everything off. The same COULD be said of most counters yes, but Commit has, in my experience, deflated combo players just a bit more. Putting it second from the top is akin to feeling like Damocles, no doubt, but that too plays to your advantage.
I maintain that it's worthwhile in 'spelldraw' decks of this sort...you may never cast one side or the other, but they are there if you need them. And I'm sure this is FAR from the only split card that is guilty of this(only one side is really relevant in my deck), either.
EDIT: Got so focused on the Commit // Memory discussion, I forgot to include this.
I don't know how vicious you intend to be on your opponents, but it occurs to me that most troublesome lands are utility lands. If you don't have it in your deck already, you may want to consider Blood Sun, as a way of slowing them down until you get Blood Moon.
Modern Horizons appears to be a potential goldmine for the Commander format and is drawing me back to the game.
@benjameenbear That new list looks pretty strong! Thousand-Year Storm actually hurts my brain. I see that it essentially gives every spell you cast storm. The only thing I really don't like about it is the cmc. It's not a great early game card and I'm not convinced it hits hard enough late game.
I'm finding that Niv 3.0's color heavy cost can be a bit of an obstacle. Chromatic Lantern certainly helps but isn't guaranteed. It's too bad all the Mox right now keep getting more and more expensive - out of my price range. Talisman of Creativity is definitely going into my deck for this reason, and I'd like to find a couple more like it. 3 cmc or less colored artifact ramp that doesn't come into play tapped.
Wheels
When I'm at the table with other combo players; they can usually get to their combo faster, empty their hand faster, then they either win or their out of the game for a couple turns. Cards like Wheel of Fortune helped the other people at the table much more than it helped me. Instead of wheels, I'm going to running more hand fattening cards.
The trick with wheels is to cast them when they benefit you the most. There are many examples of this, but say you cast an overloaded Cyclonic Rift, then followed with a Wheel. RIP. Most notably they combo VERY well with Consecrated Sphinx allowing you to get half your deck in your hand. That said, I have removed some of the less than ideal or higher cmc wheels from my list in favor of more control or hand fattening cards.
Stranglehold is definitely something that should be considered, although I have found that cards like these really paint a target on your head. I tend to go more toward cards like Propaganda that don't directly shut down my opponents but that still do a decent job of protecting me.
I have become a huge fan of modular counterspells. Examples of these are Supreme Will, Insidious Will, and now Archmage's Charm. It addresses the main downside to having a large number of counterspells in your list.
I like Reality Scramble a lot. That's definitely a card that I can build around! And I love having good red cards in the deck.
With so many artifacts in the deck, Sculpting Steel or Phyrexian Metamorph are looking pretty good again, especially for copying our mana rocks.
With Paradox Engine, I should point out that Reiterate can be an alternate win con if you don't have Isochron Scepter. All you need is mana rocks that can produce 4RR Reiterate is definitely a card that I will be slotting back in.
Well those are just my random thoughts for now. Interested in further honing my own list here. Hopefully I can find some games here locally.
I just wanted to report that I finally played a few real commander games today (4v4) and I got trounced! Not necessarily because my deck was under performing but because I'm just so rusty. I hadn't played a game like that in over a year. I made a few bad decisions such as not countering a Spiteful Visions which ended up killing me and then in another game I prematurely cast my Dream Halls with another blue player on the table. Ironically, the other blue player ended up landing and protecting a Consecrated Sphinx which ultimately cost me that game.
There are a lot of new cards and two of the guys I was playing with go to tournaments regularly in different formats, modern and legacy I think. I would say our decks were on a similar power level. One of the other guys was fairly new to commander or mtg in general and didn't win any of the games either despite running pretty good cards and making a few good plays.
I guess it made me realize that I am back to being an intermediate player when it comes to commander or mtg in general, largely due to the lack of experience I have with some of the newer cards and the time I've spent away from the game. I am not making the best plays. I've also slotted a bunch of new cards into the deck that I'm not accustomed to playing with yet either.
As for the deck itself, I'm still leaning heavily toward my old Inner Fire/Comet Storm win con, and on the fence with Paradox Engine/Scepter. I'm feeling like cutting the scepter combo for more removal/control or tutors, or ramp to get me to that traditional non-permanent based win con more reliably. If I go this route do I add Enter the Infinite and Curiosity back in?
I am also considering cutting Dream Halls for Omniscience. While the card is pretty fun and actually allows a nice shortcut to cast my commander, it can definitely backfire. With 3 or more other players at the table, it's hard to respond to everything that's coming at me. And like I re-discovered today, it's not good against other blue opponents especially.
I am planning on posting my paper list, card for card and discussing how my money might be best spent on upgrading it from this point on. I'm interested in writing a Primer for Parun, but I definitely don't have the experience I need to do something like that yet. The meta has changed a lot. Right now I am planning on playing as many games as possible to gain that experience. There is a new game store opening up on our small town which should mean that I should be able to find a more consistent playgroup. He mentioned wanting to do commander tournaments, which I am all for!
Hey Rowan, good to see you back. Sorry for the late reply, I don't check this too regularly anymore! I am in the same boat as you, I haven't played in a while (except my while is only a couple months).
As for the deck, I have leaned more towards a controlling deck which I went into more detail about in my last post. I'm really excited for you getting a store opening up! Maybe you can try to optimize a list for Parun!
For your two questions:
1) I think Enter the Infinite is great, it combos really well with your other tools in the deck and especially Mizzix's Mastery. Casting Intuition and grabbing Enter the Infinite, Mizzix's Mastery, and Mystic Retrieval always seems strong to me.
2) Dream Halls can be very strong, but I don't like that it helps other decks. Also, if you try to go off first you usually lose. I also don't like Omniscience, it just costs so much and with ten mana I feel like we should be winning the game instead.
These are some things I remember when I made my big deck change but I don't know what your current deck/meta looks like either. Best of luck in your games to come and hopefully you can find a stable playgroup!!
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Yeah, this has bothered me too, and I have considered cutting it many times. The reason I haven't I guess is that it's such a simple and elegant win-con. Like you said above, other win-cons can get tedious and convoluted. But I'm curious as to what your preferred win-con is when you have your library in your hand if it's not Inner Fire / Comet Storm?
A possible alternative I've considered is swapping out both of those cards for Spiraling Embers and making sure I can copy or recur it indefinitely. That would at least free up one slot while still offering us a simple and elegant win con. Unlike Comet Storm and Inner Fire, Spiraling Embers actually hits pretty hard on it's own and so can be used earlier to more effect even if we don't have our library in our hands. It's also a bit less fragile since if either Comet Storm or Inner Fire gets exiled it renders the other half of the combo much less useful. It can also totally knock a player out on it's own without being recurred or copied. You just need 40 cards in hand. If you CAN recur or copy it at least once, you only need 20 cards in hand to kill one player.
That's a fair point but I think the situation we were trying to avoid is needing to cast Niv 3.0 and having just those colorless mana rocks out with nothing else to cast. In my above list, I simply swapped out Monolith and Vault for Coalition Relic and Chromatic Lantern. I may still need to add something like Prismatic Lens or Izzet Signet. I feel pretty good about those swaps because sometimes I struggle to get the colors I need. It sucks to just lack one U for a counterspell.
Commit // Memory definitely looks solid, albeit a bit inefficient CMC wise. I think I will be picking one up. I would certainly use it over Venser or Time Reversal
Oh, agreed. It's so straightforward that it feels really final. For me, the key was just that once the deck was in hand, it was pretty trivial to cast Niv if he wasn't already out (Inner Fire -> rocks -> Omniscience or Mind Over Matter) and enough one-sided card draw (e.g., Mindmoil or Whirlpool Warrior) to deal pretty much arbitrary damage. While I was running Venser, I preferred to cast him with Omniscience+Mindmoil+Niv, then let Venser bounce himself and repeat until the table was dead.
Two thoughts here. First, I feel like we've gotten a little spoiled by the tuck rule change. We should be able to win without casting Niv except on our winning turn. Second, at least in my experience, Niv.3 can be cast pretty consistently on or before turn six. I've had him out turn three, and I've played only about ten test games. I've also just straight won turn two off of Sol Ring + Izzet Signet + Dramatic Scepter.
This is what I'm working with so far. I'm trying to figure out the proper balance of large, pre-Niv draw to post-Niv countermagic and synergy pieces (e.g., Basilisk Collar for the lulz). It's also an open question whether to add things like Cursed Totem / Torpor Orb / Grafdigger's Cage and cut the nonbos.
I put together a list that was in between Rowan's and Benjameenbear's, swaying more towards Benjameenbear's. We don't really have the tools to control the board that well and we are still a combo deck at heart, although I am still going to try running Vedalken Orrery. Most games we are still probably going to win without casting Niv-Mizzet, Parun.
Combo Win Conditions
I like the turn we took moving towards Isochron Scepter combos. This opens up so many new possibilities for win conditions, all of the combo pieces are useful on their own, and we can tutor every piece of the combo. Because of our heavy investment in artifacts; Whir of Invention, Tezzeret, the Seeker, Transmute Artifact, and Reshape are great. Then when we add these artifact tutors I am liking Alhammarret's Archive a lot more. I also kept in Mana Vault and Grim Monolith since we have more of an emphasis on artifacts we can still use the colorless mana, we have ways to untap them, and we can sacrifice them for our tutors.
I am not running any alternative win conditions such as Inner Fire & Comet Storm or Laboratory Maniac. When we have our deck in our hand, we have the cheap mana rocks and plenty of ways to win that I feel they are not needed. I also cut the Show and Tell, Omniscience, Dream Halls, and Mindmoil.
Top Deck Control
As for the top deck control aspect of the deck, Future Sight is very expensive for its cost. Without Helm of Awakening to combo with Sensei's Divining Top I just don't think it's the most efficient card we could be running. I am still running the Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, & Scroll Rack package though.
Removal
For mass removal I am running Cyclonic Rift, Evacuation, and All is Dust. Cyclonic Rift is the obvious one but I do like Evacuation and All is Dust over cards such as Mizzium Mortars and Rolling Earthquake because they act as a catch all.
For spot removal I am running Lightning Bolt and Reality Shift for their efficiency and their combo potential with Paradox Engine and Isochron Scepter.
Card Draw/Hand Fattening
I still think Consecrated Sphinx is one of the best blue commander cards. Rhystic Study has such a strong effect that I don't think we could do without it. Alhammarret's Archive was good before and now has increased synergy with our more artifact based build. I loved the Firebrand Archer/Guttersnipe combo with Curiosity/Ophidian Eye, I haven't tried it out yet but it sounds great so I included all four of these.
Extra Turns
I still think extra turns are very strong and I kept in Time Warp, Temporal Mastery, and Temporal Manipulation.
I only play commander on paper so I have limited exposure to commander games. I will test these changes and let you guys know my thoughts on specific cards as I go.
Allow me to chime in here with my preferred win condition. Once I have my deck in hand, I prefer to cast Paradox Engine, some cheap mana rocks, and imprint Lightning Bolt to Isochron Scepter and Bolt the table to crispy cinders with Niv's electrifying magnificence along with a backup Fish Bowl Death Star. Really, though, it's whatever you want at that point. I think [CARD}Inner Fire[/CARD] has a little bit more variance in how useful it is at any given point of a game, so I don't really prefer it. I believe my win conditions to be more synergistic with the deck as a whole, but it again comes down to preference methinks.
I'm personally a firm advocate of running Cursed Totem if your deck can support it. The number of combos it shuts off, in addition to the number of mana dorks, makes it one of the strongest Stax pieces in my Teferi list. It is a SERIOUS pain to deal with as an opponent against the card (I have a Zacama, Primal Calamity deck that HATES this card), and I find I have to spend quite a few resources trying to find some way to get it off the table. The other Stax pieces are a little more niche, depending on your meta, but are otherwise generally effective. It does, however, take up a precious card slot which is always the hardest thing to accommodate in this format...
Nice T2 win there, comrade!
Glad that the comments are helping you, comrade!
I'm curious as to how the Curiosity/Guttersnipe package plays out for you. I had a game last night where I got this package online for a turn cycle and I drew 6 cards off of 3 spells (was playing a 3 man game). I did ultimately lose that game (because my wife's Kaalia deck cast Boil against my all-Island mana base followed up with a Hellkite Tyrant to steal my mana rocks), I still felt like if I had the chance to take just one more turn cycle I would have been able to combo off (the 6 cards included some undercosted mana rocks and a tutor for Paradox Engine). I've seen this principle (enchanting Pingers with Curiosity effects) taken to an extreme in a couple of Nekusar lists for an absurd amount of card draw, and I think the idea is pretty strong in this deck as well.
On a different note, how are you guys surviving with so little spot removal? It personally boggles my mind, since I rely so heavily on it, as to how you can effectively deal with other players' threats. I prefer to have MORE spot removal rather than less since it affords me an opportunity to play more aggressively into my combo (spot removal costs MUCH less than the mass removal effects available in Izzet colors).
EDIT: Future Sight and Paradox Engine can be a ridiculously powerful way to churn through your deck, given enough mana rocks on your board. Something to consider as you evaluate Future Sight.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Game 1
I got a great opener; Turn 1 - Sol Ring, Land, Mox Diamond, Wheel of Fortune. I easily won on turn 4 from that position, getting an early Paradox Engine down and casting draw spells until I found a win.
Game 2
Almost the same hand as game one, I announced what my intend play was and cast my Wheel of Fortune then passed the turn with no mana open while I was fetching and before I resolved the Wheel of Fortune in the hopes of saving time. I ended up drawing Mox Opal and Chrome Mox along with Swan Song. My opponent cast Null Rod and because I prematurely passed my turn, I was unable to counter it with Swan Song. I missed land drops and durdled until I lost.
Game 3
This one was a bit different.
Turn 1 I went land, Mox Diamond, Grim Monolith.
Turn 2 Rhystic Study.
Turn 3 cast Chrome Mox, Transmute Artifact on Grim Monolith using its mana and UU to get Alhammarret's Archive, cast Personal Tutor to get Reforge the Soul then when someone did not pay the tax on Rhystic Study, I drew Reforge the Soul on someone else's turn and cast it using its miracle cost.
Turn 4 I was able to cast Niv-Mizzet, Parun and Curiosity but no way to activate the draw on my turn, I passed turn holding a Pact of Negation to protect the combo and planning to draw a lot of my deck when someone cast an instant or sorcery or didn't pay for Rhystic Study. I had All is Dust in hand but decided to go with this play instead. First opponent cast Aura of Silence, threatening Curiosity. I decided to Pact of Negation it then kill him with Niv-Mizzet, Parun triggers so Pact of Negation would fizzle and I wouldn't have to pay the upkeep cost, I picked up Force of Will from the draw. Next opponent cast a creature that threatened to kill me and I had to Force of Will it, a few triggers from that killed off his creatures (ten more cards in deck). My next opponent had a Omnath, Locus of Rage combo, while I had no mana or free answers, it killed me.
Overall
The deck felt incredibly strong, stronger than the past although I don't think I have a large enough sample size. My opening hands in each game seemed amazing and I don't know if that will be a consistent theme.
The last game I would have had an easy win if I decided to cast All is Dust then go for the win the next turn, lesson learned. But I also would like to say that a piece of spot removal would not have helped me there while mass removal would have. 1 point to mass removal, spot removal 0.
Unless I missing something, if you didn't have a flash enabler out, this doesn't work since Reforge is a sorcery.
I'm wondering why you didn't just draw your library. You should have enough answers to deal with literally anything, not to mention kill at least 2 players (I don't know what the life totals were but I'm assuming they were close to 40 since it was only turn 4.)
I do think that Stax is a valid direction to take this deck, especially when it comes to specific threats that we can have difficulty dealing with. Since we have no real creatures to speak of, we are pretty vulnerable to them. I do think that something like Propaganda would not be too out of place here. Artifacts are definitely our preference however. If you can think of some good artifact stax pieces, please list them. I feel these should probably be things that protect us, rather than shutting down the whole table, as that very clearly paints a target on our head.
I think I'm going to give the Spiraling Embers thing a try. Nobody has said anything about that yet, but I'm hopeful. I've personally never liked win-cons that depend on permanents for this list. I find them to be too fragile. My instincts tell me that Spiraling Embers will work well with the recursion package that we already have. I like embers because it's the last thing people expect from a deck like this. I think it works better than the Inner Fire / Comet Storm kill, and it frees up one slot. I still totally plan on including the Paradox Engine / Scepter package as well, as I feel that to be pretty strong.
I have to give credit to FireStorm4056 for this one but As Foretold is really amazing for this deck. I will definitely be slotting this in to give it a try. At the very least, it makes all of our counters Force of Wills once per turn. Yes, you heard that correctly. I would also like to point out that this card combos amazingly well with Vedalken Orrery and Leyline of Anticipation allowing you to cast ANY one spell on EACH of our opponent's turns for 0. I see a lot of value here and more of a reason to include at least one flash enabler. My vote would be Orrey since we can tutor for it and recur it. Yes, this becomes a huge target when people realize what it does for us, but it also doesn't hurt that bad to lose it. Overall, I would probably slot this in over Omniscience because it is more usable early game. The one thing I DON'T like about this card, is that it is a horrible late game top deck. It's also not easy to tutor for, and we probably wouldn't tutor for it anyway over other things with our precious tutors that CAN grab it.
Nice game reports and very nice opening hands. Sorry about Game 2. Do note that you can't counter Artifacts with Swan Song sadly. What is the Omnath combo that you mention? I haven't played against a dedicated Mad-Nath Combo deck and I'd like to be familiar with it.
@Rowan
The Miracle mechanic is super weird. Even though Reforge the Soul is indeed a sorcery, and should only be able to be cast on your turn, the Miracle trigger actually circumvents that. As long as it's the first card drawn during that turn, regardless of WHOSE turn it is, you can cast that spell irrespective of the spell's normal timing restrictions via its Miracle cost. It's one of the reasons that the Miracles legacy deck was so broken. You could cast Entreat the Angels during an opponents turn and pretty much kill them on your turn while holding up mana for interaction. Here's a link for the explanation of the mechanic for clarification.
EDIT: As Foretold takes a long time to get to 2 counters, when your counterspells become Force of Wills. If you're planning to embrace a more long-term strategy and control the game then it's a decent card. Otherwise, it is quite slow. I tried it in my Dralnu list and almost immediately cut it because it was a do-nothing card that took too much time to eventually pay off. Not to mention being a terrible top-deck, as you've noted. Adding in a Stax package will help buy time for this deck in general and will make As Foretold stronger as well.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I had less then 80 cards in my library and everyone else was pretty much at 40. I was the target at the table for all attacks. I killed the one player with my draws off of the Pact of Negation cast, I drew Force of Will and decided to only draw enough to kill one player so I could have some flexibility if I want to kill a small creature or something. I used Force of Will on one of my second opponent's spells and I don't run any other free spells like Foil. I should have killed a different player than I used my Pact of Negation on.
Oh, well that's good to know. It's my first time playing with Swan Song.
On the battlefield, the Omnath player had Ashnod's Altar, Crucible of Worlds, Exploration, and Azusa, Lost but Seeking. He played Omnath, Locus of Rage then Evolving Wilds and cracked it. Two landfall triggers give him two elementals, and he can replay the Evolving Wilds three more times for a total of eight landfall triggers. He can then sacrifice the elemntals to Ashnod's Altar dealing three damage each time through Omnath, Locus of Rage.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Now with three empty slots I am going to try Rebuild to try and protect our fancy new artifacts a little bit more and act as disruption for others. I am going to put back in Enter the Infinite because we win when we draw our entire deck and this is just one of the best ways to do that especially since we added more mana rocks and it works so well with Mizzix's Mastery and Intuition. Lastly, I'm going to put in another counterspell, not sure which one to go with though, I'll probably just put in a Flusterstorm for cheap disruption and protection.
Since I didn't put up my decklist last time, here it is. A good mix of Rowan's and Benjameen's. Let me know if I missed some major point/cards that are crucial to your specific deck as well as general thoughts on specific card choices.
1 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
MANA PRODUCTION
0 Mana Crypt
0 Chrome Mox
0 Mox Diamond
0 Mox Opal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
2 Coldsteel Heart
2 Grim Monolith
2 Izzet Signet
3 Coalition Relic
3 Chromatic Lantern
5 Gilded Lotus
COMBO PIECES/UTILITY
1 Curiosity
2 Dramatic Reversal
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Ophidian Eye
4 Leyline of Anticipation
5 Paradox Engine
12 Enter the Infinite
REMOVAL
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Reality Shift
3 Rebuild
5 Evacuation
7 All is Dust
COUNTERS
0 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
2 Counterspell
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Mana Drain
2 Counterbalance
2 Remand
4 Mindbreak Trap
5 Force of Will
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Mizzix's Mastery
4 Mystic Retrieval
TUTORS
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gamble
1 Personal Tutor
2 Transmute Artifact
3 Spellseeker
3 Fabricate
3 Intuition
3 Whir of Invention
3 Long-Term Plans
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
WHEELS
1 Winds of Change
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Windfall
3 Timetwister
5 Reforge the Soul
6 Time Spiral
TOP DECK CONTROL
/HAND IMPROVEMENT
1 Brainstorm
1 Faithless Looting
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Scroll Rack
2 Impulse
HAND FATTENING
3 Rhystic Study
5 Alhammarret's Archive
6 Consecrated Sphinx
EXTRA TURNS
5 Temporal Manipulation
5 Time Warp
7 Temporal Mastery
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Mana Confluence
1 Shivian Reef
1 Steam Vents
1 Volcanic Island
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Spirebluff Canal
UTILITY LANDS
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Strip Mine
1 Reliquary Tower
FETCH LANDS
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
BASIC LANDS
1 Island (6)
1 Mountain (3)
Otherwise, the list looks really good to me. Do report back on additional games you play!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
It may require slight adjustments in a list to ensure maximum efficiency from the card, but I couldn't imagine playing my Niv-Mizzet deck without it.
Good look, snowfox.
In other news, the Parun version of Niv is breaking Standard right now. It's basically the Control finisher of choice now, with more raw power than Teferi. How awesome is that?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm posting a new list that I want to try out. I was toying with a 4 Color Storm list headed by Yidris but I really like the draw power that the Parun offers. So, this is what I think I'm going to test:
6x Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Mana Sources (16)
0x Mana Crypt
0x Mox Opal
0x Mox Diamond
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Voltaic Key
2x Izzet Signet
2x Grim Monolith
2x Coldsteel Heart
2x Thought Vessel
2x Pyretic Ritual
3x Chromatic Lantern
3x Seething Song
4x Thran Dynamo
5x Gilded Lotus
6x Coveted Jewel
Combo Pieces/Utility (10)
1x Curiosity
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Dramatic Reversal
2x Isochron Scepter
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Expansion // Explosion
3x Laboratory Maniac
4x Aetherflux Reservoir
5x Paradox Engine
6x Thousand-Year Elixir
Tutors (8)
1x Mystical Tutor
2x Reshape
2x Transmute Artifact
2x Merchant Scroll
3x Fabricate
3x Whir of Invention
3x Spellseeker
3x Intuition
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Rolling Earthquake
1x Vandalblast
2x Reality Shift
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Blink of an Eye
2x Mizzium Mortars
3x Capsize
Card Draw (15)
1x Preordain
1x Brainstorm
1x Mystic Remora
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Ponder
2x Impulse
2x Pull from Tomorrow
3x Wheel of Fortune
3x Windfall
3x Blue Sun's Zenith
3x Rhystic Study
4x Fact or Fiction
5x Reforge the Soul
5x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
6x Time Spiral
Counterspells (10)
0x Pact of Negation
1x Swan Song
1x Flusterstorm
2x Counterspell
2x Mana Drain
2x Arcane Denial
2x Muddle the Mixture
2x Trickbind
3x Disallow
4x Commit // Memory
5x Force of Will
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Academy Ruins
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Command Tower
1x Mana Confluence
1x City of Brass
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Volcanic Island
1x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Spirebluff Canal
1x Izzet Boilerworks
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
10x Island
2x Mountain
The goal of the deck is very similar to my previous list but instead includes Thousand-Year Elixir so that I can copy Lightning Bolt 15+ times or cast an Explosion for X >= 5 10+ times. Then there is the normal combo lines of Dramatic Scepter, Paradox Engine, and Curiosity.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
And if you play multiplayer, Consecrated Sphinx would be a must include for that deck I'd think.
Consecrated Sphinx is a good one. I flip between it and Azami in the deck. The Sphinx draws more cards over the course of a game but Azami fuels the Paradox turn better than the Sphinx could. I've also contemplated cutting Reforge the Soul since it often seems like I have a redundancy of Wheel effects in hand.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Commit // Memory seems like a worse card on both turns than all of our other options. The only real plus side is that it's like two cards in one. The first part is very over priced just to delay a card and the aftermath costs three more than we want it to.
As for Chasm Skulker, it seems slow for a not great effect. Instead of creating chump blockers, why not run board sweepers instead? I even think Propaganda is better than it. Like you said though, depends on your meta.
Lastly, Consecrated Sphinx vs. Azami, Lady of Scrolls. This one is pretty close. As I will be talking about below, I am going to be moving away from the combo and cutting Paradox Engine. I've been playing with it for a little bit and it feels a little slow. I have always liked Consecrated Sphinx, it's a very strong card that requires an answer. Also, we have a lot colorless rocks that can be utilized in paying Consecrated Sphinx's 4 colorless.
I haven't played commander in a while but then I got back into it last night. I played in a pod with three other combo players. While this may not be the ordinary makeup of a pod, I do think that combo is the most popular competitive EDH deck.
I have always looked to make my Niv-Mizzet, Parun deck as competitive as possible and I always knew that Niv wasn't nearly as strong as other combo decks that had green or black in them, but I always managed to win games despite that. I think it's finally time for me to move away from Rowan's original list. I think it's going to be more of a control deck that focuses more on using Niv-Mizzet, Parun to gain board control and card advantage. I don't know how it will work out, but I will try to keep you guys updated and if anyone has any comments/suggestions/questions please respond and let's talk.
A couple of big changes I'm probably going to make:
Wheels
When I'm at the table with other combo players; they can usually get to their combo faster, empty their hand faster, then they either win or their out of the game for a couple turns. Cards like Wheel of Fortune helped the other people at the table much more than it helped me. Instead of wheels, I'm going to running more hand fattening cards.
Hate Cards
Almost every competitive deck runs tutors, Birthing Pod-like effects, graveyard shenanigans, and non-basic lands. I'm going to start running Stranglehold, Grafdigger's Cage and Blood Moon.
Tutors/Extra Turn Effects/Recursion
Since I'm moving away from full combo and I'm adding anti-synergies with cards like Stranglehold, I don't need tutors/extra turns/recursion as much as I did before. I am going to replace these with removal, counters, or hand fattening cards.
Removal/Counters
To try and stop others from winning before I do, since I will be going down a slower route, I am going to have like 30 cards of removal, artifact removal, Counterspells, and various other disruption. I am going to bring in a lot of "free" spells (such as Force of Will, Misdirection, Pact of Negation, Snapback and Submerge) for disruption and protection so I can tap out and still be able to have a response to someone trying to win or to protect my board. They will also work more with Niv-Mizzet, Parun so I can tap out to cast him and then protect him with the "free" spells. Might try out As Foretold too, especially since it's CMC, I can cast Niv as long as it has six counters no matter how much tax is on him. Seems too slow though.
All these changes are pretty speculative that I really don't know how it will work out. Like I said; if anyone has any comments/suggestions/questions please respond and let's talk.
I agree/disagree. I agree that Memory costs quite a bit...I can count on one hand the number of times I've cast that side. But it's there, and since this isn't G or B, any kind of graveyard recursion(ESPECIALLY since we're in RU) strikes me as pretty important, particularly because Niv 3.0 needs them spells coming. It might help if you think of Memory as an 'emergency restock', though in a properly tuned Izzet deck, this should never be a concern.
Commit, I believe your point is wrong, however. It has mostly the same ability as Venser, Shaper Savant(for the same, but less restrictive CMC, I might add), and while he's good because he can be blinked repeatedly, that doesn't make Commit any less relevant. Its usefulness DOES depend on the meta(keeping spells on track, watching out for that tree, OOOH!), but I've rarely been unhappy with it. In a crazy, combo-centric game where everything is trying to go off 'just so', I've seen it be the monkey wrench that throws the rhythm of everything off. The same COULD be said of most counters yes, but Commit has, in my experience, deflated combo players just a bit more. Putting it second from the top is akin to feeling like Damocles, no doubt, but that too plays to your advantage.
I maintain that it's worthwhile in 'spelldraw' decks of this sort...you may never cast one side or the other, but they are there if you need them. And I'm sure this is FAR from the only split card that is guilty of this(only one side is really relevant in my deck), either.
EDIT: Got so focused on the Commit // Memory discussion, I forgot to include this.
I don't know how vicious you intend to be on your opponents, but it occurs to me that most troublesome lands are utility lands. If you don't have it in your deck already, you may want to consider Blood Sun, as a way of slowing them down until you get Blood Moon.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Modern Horizons appears to be a potential goldmine for the Commander format and is drawing me back to the game.
@benjameenbear That new list looks pretty strong! Thousand-Year Storm actually hurts my brain. I see that it essentially gives every spell you cast storm. The only thing I really don't like about it is the cmc. It's not a great early game card and I'm not convinced it hits hard enough late game.
I'm finding that Niv 3.0's color heavy cost can be a bit of an obstacle. Chromatic Lantern certainly helps but isn't guaranteed. It's too bad all the Mox right now keep getting more and more expensive - out of my price range. Talisman of Creativity is definitely going into my deck for this reason, and I'd like to find a couple more like it. 3 cmc or less colored artifact ramp that doesn't come into play tapped.
The trick with wheels is to cast them when they benefit you the most. There are many examples of this, but say you cast an overloaded Cyclonic Rift, then followed with a Wheel. RIP. Most notably they combo VERY well with Consecrated Sphinx allowing you to get half your deck in your hand. That said, I have removed some of the less than ideal or higher cmc wheels from my list in favor of more control or hand fattening cards.
Stranglehold is definitely something that should be considered, although I have found that cards like these really paint a target on your head. I tend to go more toward cards like Propaganda that don't directly shut down my opponents but that still do a decent job of protecting me.
I have become a huge fan of modular counterspells. Examples of these are Supreme Will, Insidious Will, and now Archmage's Charm. It addresses the main downside to having a large number of counterspells in your list.
I like Reality Scramble a lot. That's definitely a card that I can build around! And I love having good red cards in the deck.
With so many artifacts in the deck, Sculpting Steel or Phyrexian Metamorph are looking pretty good again, especially for copying our mana rocks.
With Paradox Engine, I should point out that Reiterate can be an alternate win con if you don't have Isochron Scepter. All you need is mana rocks that can produce 4RR Reiterate is definitely a card that I will be slotting back in.
Well those are just my random thoughts for now. Interested in further honing my own list here. Hopefully I can find some games here locally.
There are a lot of new cards and two of the guys I was playing with go to tournaments regularly in different formats, modern and legacy I think. I would say our decks were on a similar power level. One of the other guys was fairly new to commander or mtg in general and didn't win any of the games either despite running pretty good cards and making a few good plays.
I guess it made me realize that I am back to being an intermediate player when it comes to commander or mtg in general, largely due to the lack of experience I have with some of the newer cards and the time I've spent away from the game. I am not making the best plays. I've also slotted a bunch of new cards into the deck that I'm not accustomed to playing with yet either.
As for the deck itself, I'm still leaning heavily toward my old Inner Fire/Comet Storm win con, and on the fence with Paradox Engine/Scepter. I'm feeling like cutting the scepter combo for more removal/control or tutors, or ramp to get me to that traditional non-permanent based win con more reliably. If I go this route do I add Enter the Infinite and Curiosity back in?
I am also considering cutting Dream Halls for Omniscience. While the card is pretty fun and actually allows a nice shortcut to cast my commander, it can definitely backfire. With 3 or more other players at the table, it's hard to respond to everything that's coming at me. And like I re-discovered today, it's not good against other blue opponents especially.
I am planning on posting my paper list, card for card and discussing how my money might be best spent on upgrading it from this point on. I'm interested in writing a Primer for Parun, but I definitely don't have the experience I need to do something like that yet. The meta has changed a lot. Right now I am planning on playing as many games as possible to gain that experience. There is a new game store opening up on our small town which should mean that I should be able to find a more consistent playgroup. He mentioned wanting to do commander tournaments, which I am all for!
As for the deck, I have leaned more towards a controlling deck which I went into more detail about in my last post. I'm really excited for you getting a store opening up! Maybe you can try to optimize a list for Parun!
For your two questions:
1) I think Enter the Infinite is great, it combos really well with your other tools in the deck and especially Mizzix's Mastery. Casting Intuition and grabbing Enter the Infinite, Mizzix's Mastery, and Mystic Retrieval always seems strong to me.
2) Dream Halls can be very strong, but I don't like that it helps other decks. Also, if you try to go off first you usually lose. I also don't like Omniscience, it just costs so much and with ten mana I feel like we should be winning the game instead.
These are some things I remember when I made my big deck change but I don't know what your current deck/meta looks like either. Best of luck in your games to come and hopefully you can find a stable playgroup!!