I just think commander is just too many different things, to too many different people, lol.
But I believe that until we can get a universal consensus on what the standards should be for Commander, the format can never begin to be taken truly seriously (if you know what I mean).
I'm finding it's tough to find spots for some of the new cards coming. We can't go too far into non-artifact territory, without compromising card synergies we need. As good as Workshop is, the more non-artifacts we run, the more chance of the card being useless (like it typically is, when people put it in decks it's not supposed to be in).
I think that at least having a couple of Wastes along with basic land ramp in colorless/artifact will be good for this and other colorless general decks in commander. Not all hands are godhands and even in mid game getting that much needed land advantage is never a bad thing. Also, having all non-basics can be a hindrance with all the hate it has. Thanks to Wastes I'm seriously considering building a Karn, Silver Golem EDH. This thread has a lot of discussion on what cards do and the utility lands, but how about opening up some discussion on how the deck could possibly work with ramp and the new basic? This could also open up the possibility of a faster and cheaper (budget-wise) version of Karn (maybe?).
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Well, what do you think needs to be discussed? I mentioned the half-dozen or so cards that now have a use in karn with Wastes in post 560 - just a few posts up.
I feel like Karn can be built on any budget - most of the cards that really make the deck tick are budget cards already. The pricy stuff are basically just luxuries.
The deck can definitely be built to win faster - but over the years, I've tuned it down to play a more rounded game instead of winning each game as quickly as possible - I try to make it as enjoyable for the locals at my shops to play against as it is for me to play with.
I'm finding it's tough to find spots for some of the new cards coming. We can't go too far into non-artifact territory, without compromising card synergies we need. As good as Workshop is, the more non-artifacts we run, the more chance of the card being useless (like it typically is, when people put it in decks it's not supposed to be in).
What would you say the cut-off for Workshop's usefulness is in EDH?
I'd say the primary indicator is whether your general is an artifact. If that's the case - and if you're running Urborg then you can afford to run fewer artifacts.
I guess ultimately my test to run Workshop would be about the same test to run Metalworker.
Well, what do you think needs to be discussed? I mentioned the half-dozen or so cards that now have a use in karn with Wastes in post 560 - just a few posts up.
I feel like Karn can be built on any budget - most of the cards that really make the deck tick are budget cards already. The pricy stuff are basically just luxuries.
The deck can definitely be built to win faster - but over the years, I've tuned it down to play a more rounded game instead of winning each game as quickly as possible - I try to make it as enjoyable for the locals at my shops to play against as it is for me to play with.
Yeah, I read that. I was just wondering what you've found to be not so vital as you're playing a game with Karn because those cards would need to be substituted. Also, with your experience, which lands could go in favor of including some Wastes. Maybe I wasn't as specific in my comment, but that's what I meant. Not so much what could be included as to what could be swapped out or what isn't that crucial.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Honestly, I don't feel like any of the lands are absolutely crucial. Urborg, Eye of Ugin and Maze of Ith are handy - but none are absolutely crucial.
Additionally, for non-land cards - it is entirely up to however the player wants tobuild the deck. I've tried to highlight some synergies and combos that can be included based on the builder's taste. Perhaps I should better highlight specific recommendations for Aggro, combo and control builds.
Thanks Burntgerbil for putting this article up! I have a natural affinity for artifacts myself and lands so it wasn't that difficult for me to have around 80% of the cards sleeved but obtaining these cards seems impossible with my budget. What alternatives would you suggest?
Mishra's Workshop
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mana Crypt
Forcefield
Tawnos's Coffin
Which cards will be cut if ever you want this deck to be playable in both 1versus1 and multiplayer without having to add / remove cards? What alternatives would you replace them with?
Don't you think the Null Brooch is a must include for any of the wrath effects other players might have on their decks?
Have you ever considered putting a theme on this deck like at least 1 Artifact or 1 Land from each set to really showcase Magic's history?
PS - Please keep this thread alive and we finally got Barry's Land in Wastes!
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plays Ad Nauseam and Amulet Bloom in Modern
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
Out of the cards you listed, none of them are integral to the success of the deck - it simply enables the janky stuff to work a little better.
IMHO, the decklist is pretty fluid - allowing you to customize the list to suit your (and your friends') tastes. But if you could choose one to include, I'd go for the Coffin. It's fun, unique and flexible.
I'm an old vintage player - so if I was going to 1v1, I'd do it with a stack of moxes or nothing at all. That being said, if 1v1 EDH was the thing in your area, you could focus either on speed or disruption (stax). If you don't have the budget for speed, then go stax - I guess.
However, the stax archetype really breaks down in multiplayer in my experience - with games devolving into Archenemy against you - or people just flat-out telling you that they aren't interested againt ever playing against that particular deck again.
Re:Null Brooch -
I actually don't mind the possibility of getting entirely blown out by a handful of cards. I hardly ever see it happen and have come back from it more than a handful of times. Additionally, people in my playgroups don't typically play one card that can shut another player out of the game without killing them. There's a bit of an unofficial "let me play my stuff and you play yours" policy - which is why I avoid stax elements in my lists.
Re:themes - I've never really been a big fan of themes in decks - I build my decks with the cards I want - which are typically the ideal ones to accomplish the goals of the deck. Including a card for anything other than its utility is a truly rare occurrence for me - but I prefer to find utility in great forgotten cards.
Don't worry! I'll keep chugging on this thread 'till the wheels fall off. I think I started that first page almost 6 years ago now.
I'm working on figuring out what goes in from OGW and I'll have a working update once I acquire the cards and do some testing.
Hey guys. I have been following this thread for about a year now and it has helped me immensely with my own karn list which has gotten pretty competitive.
Wanted to post because I have been doing a lot of testing with the new waste lands. And omg do they make this deck better. Being able to play cards like solemn simulacrum and wayfarer's bauble can make the deck a lot more consistent. And now I don't have to cry every time someone uses ghost quarter or path to exile.
Has anybody else been rocking the wastes yet? How many do you guys play?
I planned on starting with 5. It'll likely be somewhere between 5 and 10 in the final iteration.
I'm still waiting for my preorders to arrive before I can really get cooking with this thing.
I planned on starting with 5. It'll likely be somewhere between 5 and 10 in the final iteration.
I'm still waiting for my preorders to arrive before I can really get cooking with this thing.
As an Artifact player (but not a colorless player) I can definitely say that basic lands and cards that interact with them are really clutch for these lists and are definitely nice to include.
Out of curiosity, I looked at your changelog and couldn't see anything past 2012 - have you tracked changes since then somewhere or are they in the pages of this thread?
Guys, there is going to be a major 1v1 EDH tournament near our area and I personally have never played EDH since I exclusively play modern competitively. I have acquired all of the cards in your list(except for those that are banned in 1v1 and the 5 most expensive cards I can't afford - Workshop, Candelabra, Forcefield, Mana Crypt, Coffin)
With your suggested Stax build, any other artifacts you can think of that has good synergy with the deck, the only ones I can think of are
Smokestack with God's Eye / Myr Turbine
Storage Matrix (tapping before end of opponent's turn)
??
Any other cards you can suggest that works great with a Stax build to get maximum advantage in 1v1?
Also, any cards you would suggest that I take out which doesn't work great with 1v1?
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plays Ad Nauseam and Amulet Bloom in Modern
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
The basics have been relevant in the few games I've played since updating my list. I began with 7 Wastes and plan to increase to 10. I wasn't sure whether to include Journeyer's Kite, until I considered the value of the repeated shuffle effect with Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top.
As an aside, whereas Burntgerbil favors silver artifacts, I've gone the opposite route with all-brown for my Karn deck. I've proxied cards in the old border as needed. (Yes, I own the real cards.) Any suggestions on what style I should use for the Wastes?
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"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
The basics have been relevant in the few games I've played since updating my list. I began with 7 Wastes and plan to increase to 10. I wasn't sure whether to include Journeyer's Kite, until I considered the value of the repeated shuffle effect with Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top.
As an aside, whereas Burntgerbil favors silver artifacts, I've gone the opposite route with all-brown for my Karn deck. I've proxied cards in the old border as needed. (Yes, I own the real cards.) Any suggestions on what style I should use for the Wastes?
I think building them on the Mox template is what I would do.
I have a strong combo/stax build of this deck. If I can't conjure up infinite Mana the first couple of turns, I try to weigh down my opponents with other interactions (Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone golem, Tangle Wire etc.)
But I've come across a dilemma in recent testing; I don't which Kozilek and Ulamog would be a better fit. Newzilek is just as vulnerable to removal, can't reshuffle my library when he's removed, but he can potentially counterspell when I draw duds with him. Even better, if he stays on the table, I'll have a better chance of playing some win-cons late game.
Whenever I have infinite Mana with a eye of Ugin on board, I fetch Kozilek to draw a finisher if I don't already have one. With the great distortion, I can dump my hand on board and potentially draw 6-7 cards compared to the butcher's 4.
As for old ulamog compared to new, I'm seriously torn between the two. On cast we have "10 mana, exile 2 permanents," vs "11 Mana destroy 1 permanent." Annihilator is devastating, game changing if something isn't done about it.
For my playgroup, Annihilator is one of the least fun mechanics in the game, so I rarely see the OG eldrazi titans swing at players anymore.
However, you're playing stax - either your playgroup is a bunch of masochists or you have little regard for how much fun they're having. If they seem to kick out of your staxxy elements late game, I'd run the annihilators. Otherwise, I'd probably just run the Newdrazi.
For my playgroup, Annihilator is one of the least fun mechanics in the game, so I rarely see the OG eldrazi titans swing at players anymore.
However, you're playing stax - either your playgroup is a bunch of masochists or you have little regard for how much fun they're having. If they seem to kick out of your staxxy elements late game, I'd run the annihilators. Otherwise, I'd probably just run the Newdrazi.
I see. So, in that case I'll run the annihilators.
If my playgroup wasn't so cutthroat I probably would make some readjustments. Competitiveness aside the games we like to reminisce are the ones that count, it's just harder to do the things we want consistently in colorless. Our lack of tutors and sorcery-speed play style forces us to run cards with good synergy and sometimes "unfun" universal effects.
Thanks for keeping this thread going, Burntgerbil. I'm just beginning to explore all the possibilities that Karn represents, and reading through the thread has been very enlightening. When you get the time, would you mind updating the deck list in the OP? I've seen a few new cards mentioned that aren't in that version of the deck, and I'm interested in what made the cut since July.
Yeah, it's definitely on the top of my list - however, this set brought so many changes that I don't have the deck in a place where I'm comfortable enough to post - since I typically only post decklists after I've tested and settled on the changes. But if you're curious, my current changes are 11 Wastes, sea gate, mirror pool, burnished Hart, surveyor's scope, warping wail, endbringer and New Kozilek.
At the beginning of your upkeep, investigate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card.")
Tap, Sacrifice three Clues: Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
I can't say it's an auto inclusion, but has some versatility. Thoughts?
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But I believe that until we can get a universal consensus on what the standards should be for Commander, the format can never begin to be taken truly seriously (if you know what I mean).
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
The obvious candidates for inclusion are:
As far as how many wastes I'll be running - that'll remain to be seen what support they get in the new set.
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I feel like Karn can be built on any budget - most of the cards that really make the deck tick are budget cards already. The pricy stuff are basically just luxuries.
The deck can definitely be built to win faster - but over the years, I've tuned it down to play a more rounded game instead of winning each game as quickly as possible - I try to make it as enjoyable for the locals at my shops to play against as it is for me to play with.
What would you say the cut-off for Workshop's usefulness is in EDH?
I guess ultimately my test to run Workshop would be about the same test to run Metalworker.
Yeah, I read that. I was just wondering what you've found to be not so vital as you're playing a game with Karn because those cards would need to be substituted. Also, with your experience, which lands could go in favor of including some Wastes. Maybe I wasn't as specific in my comment, but that's what I meant. Not so much what could be included as to what could be swapped out or what isn't that crucial.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Additionally, for non-land cards - it is entirely up to however the player wants tobuild the deck. I've tried to highlight some synergies and combos that can be included based on the builder's taste. Perhaps I should better highlight specific recommendations for Aggro, combo and control builds.
Mishra's Workshop
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mana Crypt
Forcefield
Tawnos's Coffin
Which cards will be cut if ever you want this deck to be playable in both 1versus1 and multiplayer without having to add / remove cards? What alternatives would you replace them with?
Don't you think the Null Brooch is a must include for any of the wrath effects other players might have on their decks?
Have you ever considered putting a theme on this deck like at least 1 Artifact or 1 Land from each set to really showcase Magic's history?
PS - Please keep this thread alive and we finally got Barry's Land in Wastes!
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
IMHO, the decklist is pretty fluid - allowing you to customize the list to suit your (and your friends') tastes. But if you could choose one to include, I'd go for the Coffin. It's fun, unique and flexible.
I'm an old vintage player - so if I was going to 1v1, I'd do it with a stack of moxes or nothing at all. That being said, if 1v1 EDH was the thing in your area, you could focus either on speed or disruption (stax). If you don't have the budget for speed, then go stax - I guess.
However, the stax archetype really breaks down in multiplayer in my experience - with games devolving into Archenemy against you - or people just flat-out telling you that they aren't interested againt ever playing against that particular deck again.
Re:Null Brooch -
I actually don't mind the possibility of getting entirely blown out by a handful of cards. I hardly ever see it happen and have come back from it more than a handful of times. Additionally, people in my playgroups don't typically play one card that can shut another player out of the game without killing them. There's a bit of an unofficial "let me play my stuff and you play yours" policy - which is why I avoid stax elements in my lists.
Re:themes - I've never really been a big fan of themes in decks - I build my decks with the cards I want - which are typically the ideal ones to accomplish the goals of the deck. Including a card for anything other than its utility is a truly rare occurrence for me - but I prefer to find utility in great forgotten cards.
Don't worry! I'll keep chugging on this thread 'till the wheels fall off. I think I started that first page almost 6 years ago now.
I'm working on figuring out what goes in from OGW and I'll have a working update once I acquire the cards and do some testing.
Wanted to post because I have been doing a lot of testing with the new waste lands. And omg do they make this deck better. Being able to play cards like solemn simulacrum and wayfarer's bauble can make the deck a lot more consistent. And now I don't have to cry every time someone uses ghost quarter or path to exile.
Has anybody else been rocking the wastes yet? How many do you guys play?
I'm still waiting for my preorders to arrive before I can really get cooking with this thing.
Out of curiosity, I looked at your changelog and couldn't see anything past 2012 - have you tracked changes since then somewhere or are they in the pages of this thread?
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[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
With your suggested Stax build, any other artifacts you can think of that has good synergy with the deck, the only ones I can think of are
Smokestack with God's Eye / Myr Turbine
Storage Matrix (tapping before end of opponent's turn)
??
Any other cards you can suggest that works great with a Stax build to get maximum advantage in 1v1?
Also, any cards you would suggest that I take out which doesn't work great with 1v1?
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
As an aside, whereas Burntgerbil favors silver artifacts, I've gone the opposite route with all-brown for my Karn deck. I've proxied cards in the old border as needed. (Yes, I own the real cards.) Any suggestions on what style I should use for the Wastes?
My 1994 Magic Cube
Japanese cards on eBay -- Legacy, Modern, EDH, Cube.
But I've come across a dilemma in recent testing; I don't which Kozilek and Ulamog would be a better fit. Newzilek is just as vulnerable to removal, can't reshuffle my library when he's removed, but he can potentially counterspell when I draw duds with him. Even better, if he stays on the table, I'll have a better chance of playing some win-cons late game.
Whenever I have infinite Mana with a eye of Ugin on board, I fetch Kozilek to draw a finisher if I don't already have one. With the great distortion, I can dump my hand on board and potentially draw 6-7 cards compared to the butcher's 4.
As for old ulamog compared to new, I'm seriously torn between the two. On cast we have "10 mana, exile 2 permanents," vs "11 Mana destroy 1 permanent." Annihilator is devastating, game changing if something isn't done about it.
Thoughts?
However, you're playing stax - either your playgroup is a bunch of masochists or you have little regard for how much fun they're having. If they seem to kick out of your staxxy elements late game, I'd run the annihilators. Otherwise, I'd probably just run the Newdrazi.
I see. So, in that case I'll run the annihilators.
If my playgroup wasn't so cutthroat I probably would make some readjustments. Competitiveness aside the games we like to reminisce are the ones that count, it's just harder to do the things we want consistently in colorless. Our lack of tutors and sorcery-speed play style forces us to run cards with good synergy and sometimes "unfun" universal effects.
New tutor/draw engine from next set
Tamiyo's Journal
Legendary Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, investigate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card.")
Tap, Sacrifice three Clues: Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
I can't say it's an auto inclusion, but has some versatility. Thoughts?