I've been piloting a Karn list for a while now and I find it hard to cut another land for this. The deck thrives on not needing seven or more lands because of all the artifact ramp. If you're at seven lands in the deck then you either already have enough mana or have had a terribly slow game.
Honestly, I'd rather run a utility land in its place. Love the art though and I think it's good in a more budget list but it's hard to have it compete around all-star lands like Rishadan Port, Strip Mine, or Ancient Tomb.
I guess, it just seemed easy. Yes I mean the second ability won't be used a lot but the number of times when I've had 7 or more lands is still greater than the number of times I've made a goat off of Springjack Pasture or made someone in this deck unblockable with Rogue's Passage, both of which are still in the main decklist.
I agree with Central. While I use the other lands, my playgoup likes to play slower games so I often get to seven lands remarkably easily. I mean yeah, if you want to go off early game then the land isn't as good, but neither is all kinds of other things we run. It just becomes worth it when you play a long game. That said, Springjack pasture is good with Trading Post, and I started running Dragon Throne of Tarkir and it makes Rogue's passage somewhat relevant. For instance, not comboing off every game is great for the overall attitude of the group, so beng able to simply turn everything sideways strikes a familiar chord with a lot of other players.
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"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Off the top of my head, I've got what -
Karn (pw),
Ugin,
Mycosynth Golem,
Akroma's Memorial,
Darksteel Forge,
Overflowing Chalice,
Myr Battlesphere,
Hangarback Walker
and All Is Dust
Simple and effective. CMC is mitigated by how fast we can produce colorless. I am looking at four possibles so far from BFZ:
Scour from Existence - instant speed removal makes us more well rounded Titan's Presence - See above Void Winnower - More "taxing" effects on the back of a beater is nice Conduit of Ruin - A tutor on legs. My issue is I have very few colorless creatures. But this set is making me rethink a lot of things....
My mana base is REALLY tight. Some of thse lands that are coming out are really interesting at least.
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Vintage-Shops/BUG/Dredge Legacy-Death and Taxes/Nic Fit
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
So has anyone done serious playtesting for an update? I don't think there has been quite enough for a total remastering of the list, but I also don't think anyone can deny that there are a handful of relevant cards printed in the last few sets, none of which are in the "official list". I like to think of the original poster's list on page one as the sort of master copy, at least it's where I started. I heard OP mention hangarback walker, we have Scour from Existence and Void Winnower which I love, I still run Ugin, and I'm not sure where we ended up on metalworker. Any thoughts?
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"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
I'm testing a number of configurations currently - I don't really have enough data to definitively update my list (which really needs an overhaul, honestly). At this point I want to invite everyone to post and discuss their current builds.
So has anyone done serious playtesting for an update? I don't think there has been quite enough for a total remastering of the list, but I also don't think anyone can deny that there are a handful of relevant cards printed in the last few sets, none of which are in the "official list". I like to think of the original poster's list on page one as the sort of master copy, at least it's where I started. I heard OP mention hangarback walker, we have Scour from Existence and Void Winnower which I love, I still run Ugin, and I'm not sure where we ended up on metalworker. Any thoughts?
Honestly, kind of disappointed, nothing really game changing ever got spoiled in my opinion. Sanctum of Ugin is probably the most exciting new card for me as it provides another much needed way to tutor for our wincons, it's a land, and its basically free. That will definitely find a home. Titan's Presence also should find its way in but I do have do some math on how often I'll have the kind of creature it needs. Still though, it's hard to ignore that kind of utility in our lack of colors. Other than that there's some I'm considering but none that are too exciting.
Hedron Archive - Pretty solid rock that can also turn into card advantage later. Probably find a home, just need to find out what to remove
Scour from Existence - Might replace Karn Liberated honestly. I like karn so idk if it'll happen but usually he exiles one thing and dies so this is the same thing at instant speed.
Conduit of Ruin - Sadly can't tutor Volty but still a tutor and a cost reducer so worth considering.
Spawning Bed - It's a lot of tokens who can also be mana. Expensive ability sure but the land taps for mana in the meantime so no drawback
Cards that I thought about but am pretty sure I'm rejecting
New Ulamog - I run Old Ulamog and I'm sticking with him. 2 permanents over 1 is nice but not enough to swing him in my favor. Annihilator is so much more effective than that attack trigger its not even a comparison and I want the graveyard reshuffling (that was like half the point).
Void Winnower - I don't really like him. 9 with no real protection and no guaranteed impact on the game, he might screw an opponent or not affect them at all. More importantly he would be devastating to us if cloned, stolen , Bribery'ed, recurred, etc. since a lot of our wincons are even. It's like playing Iona, Shield of Emeria in a deck that is mono-white or mostly white - you just don't do it. When creatures cost 9 in EDH and are obviously devastating they are just as likely to be used against you as they are to work for you (perhaps even more likely to be working against you in truth).
Gruesome Slaughter - Could be a one-sided board wipe with karn but seems to cute to really be effective. If I could hit players too I might consider it as the ability to surprise eliminate a player would up its value significantly. As it is, unlikely.
Aligned Hedron Network - Meh. Could definitely be a dead card and even when played isn't permanent. Meh. Feel free to prove me wrong.
Shrine of the Forsaken God - After my initial outburst I've been quickly brought around on this card. Probably not actually worth a land slot given how little it will be active.
EDIT: oh and sorry, both Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Metalworker should definitely be in and stay in, they are both incredible. Metalworker is so much mana so early that its insane. And ugin is often just a win, its like our own colorless Cyclonic Rift except permanent.
With how quickly Karn can ramp, 9 for Void Winnower is negligible. It shuts off half the cards in Magic, so to even imply that it doesn't/won't impact the game is just nonsense, to me (I mean no disrespect). I just can't see a reasonable situation where it doesn't impact the game if it comes down early enough. Sure there are plenty of odd mana'd ways of dealing with it... but if you can give it shroud/hexproof, then it becomes even harder to deal with. If it gets bribed away, meh... at least we have ways of dealing with it (Scour from Existence, Karn Liberated, Spine, O-Stone, and Homeward Path.). Every time I have played it in a pod so far, it has either flat out won me the game, because I was able to stall long enough with it to win (opponents were caught with a slew of even spells), or it was answered right away (because it HAS to be answered... some decks are just hosed by it). No opponent just sits back when the Winnower hits the table and says, "Oh, that's not a big deal... I'll just let him sit out there"
Void Winnower seems to be underrated.
I prefer the new Ulamog over the old one, since I only use him for the uncounterable exile two.
Metalworker, to me, is the 4th auto-include in this deck (1. Mishra's Workshop; 2. Sol Ring; 3. Mana Crypt; 4. Metalworker). There is absolutely no reason NOT to run it here.
Ok fine you're right that's a stretch, your opponents will definitely be pissed off by it. I was just thinking there's plenty of good removal with an odd cost and if they have any of it then they don't care but yea, its an auto-answer thing.
I guess I consider Karn one of my more casual decks so in the environment I play it in big mana makes you the big target. Obviously karn ramps up pretty quick but I prefer to explode into a win rather than just explode as soon as possible. Therefore I limit the number of big things in my deck and run obstacles and things to keep the focus off me. A 9-mana obstacle is kind of counter-intuitive at that point - I've already made myself a target so anything I want to be playing at that point should win the game very quickly.
Maybe I'll give him a shot though. It's probably time to shake up the deck a bit. Maybe I'll try to cut out some of cheap obstacles for more ramp and bigger things and take a more aggressive approach for a bit to see how that works. I pulled one in a pack after all, might as well use him.
I'm not a fan of Void Winnower personally - it shuts a lot of options out for other players, it makes me the biggest target at the table and it doesn't actively contribute to me winning the game (or barring that, creating a better game experience for the rest of the table). It seems like a similar card to Ritual of Subdual, Infernal Darkness and others - where it just buys you a turn or two to win at the expense of others not being able to actively contribute.
It also shuts off a ton of our problem cards. Winnower also has some built in mitigation, but it's disguised in its first ability, since it shuts off half the cards in Magic (a ton of those cards are removal, or cards that interfere with our game plan.).
Buying an extra turn or two, especially in this format, can mean winning the game. Especially since we're mono-brown, we can get hosed easily by certain cards/strategies.
And I'm not even getting into the busted Commanders it shuts off (Arcum, and Narset to name a couple).
All those cards, and many many more, are effectively shut off by him... making your opponents options of dealing with the Winnower, and your threats, THAT much harder to do.
In mono-brown, we have VERY limited options in dealing board wipes, and static effects that hose our game plan... Winnower at least gives us more of a chance to stay in the game, and sometimes, all that matters is getting that one extra turn, to turn the game into a victory.
Winnower only helps us with our game plan, tilting the odds in our favor, every time it hits the board. It may not win the game for us every time (no card does), but the Winnower definitely helps our game plan here, and it's good at what it does.
I play in one of the most competitive/cut-throat metas in the world. I am not an EDH player who agrees with the motto: "Your deck should be good, but NOT TOO good." I just don't understand the logic. The objective is to win. Now, I know some players don't just play to win, and that's fine... but it's STILL the objective of the game.
I personally find nothing wrong with degenerate combos, or fast wins in this format. I believe if someone is on the receiving end of such a thrashing, they should just suck it up, and move on to the next game. I actually have fun playing, win or lose. I don't care how I lose, I just shuffle up, and go on to the next game.
I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that during my playtesting of the card, in my meta, it has playability. I'm not saying the card is great for all commanders, I'm only testifying its use in Karn.
Yea I know what you mean tap tap, I just don't make all my decks that way. We have a pretty large group and a variety of players so I have some decks that are super tuned and some which are less so. But obviously once you sit down, playing to win is the name of the game. That's what I was saying, to me Karn is a more casual deck just due to the natural vulnerability of being mono-brown. Even though it is basically a ramp-combo deck.
If you are playing Karn in a cut-throat meta against tuned Narset and Arcum decks with success I'd be really curious what your decklist is. Mind sharing?
If you are playing Karn in a cut-throat meta against tuned Narset and Arcum decks with success I'd be really curious what your decklist is. Mind sharing?
I feel that since Sydri was printed, many of the Karn players that wanted to be really competitive migrated over to her (or Kozilek, since Juwdah's Primer has been seriously killing it).
There's certainly room in Karn to be competitive - but with Stony Silence, From the Ashes, Bane of Progress and others - the threat of being stuck in a game that you can't actively participate in is a real thing - and while it might happen occasionally, most of the groups I frequent don't want to single out any player by crippling their ability to play (for very long, at least).
Karn could probably hang in a cutthroat meta, but I'm not sure if I personally would get 100% enjoyment from it in such an environment - I'd likely bring another deck.
I feel that since Sydri was printed, many of the Karn players that wanted to be really competitive migrated over to her (or Kozilek, since Juwdah's Primer has been seriously killing it).
Esper is good, no doubt. Tutors and removal, and whatnot... but I wouldn't say Sydri completely replaces Karn, because it's much easier to ramp into colorless than it is in esper, because you can play all the mana rocks and never worry about color fixing.
The allure of the uncounterable draw 4 is tempting, but I enjoy the Karn shenanigans, and the interactions it causes in multiplayer.
I had a Kozilek player scoop to Winnower, recently. It was a little amusing, lol. However, I know how good he can be as a commander, but I'm not convinced he's strictly better than Karn (given the interactions he can have with boardstates).
There's certainly room in Karn to be competitive - but with Stony Silence, From the Ashes, Bane of Progress and others - the threat of being stuck in a game that you can't actively participate in is a real thing - and while it might happen occasionally, most of the groups I frequent don't want to single out any player by crippling their ability to play (for very long, at least).
Karn could probably hang in a cutthroat meta, but I'm not sure if I personally would get 100% enjoyment from it in such an environment - I'd likely bring another deck.
All the cards you mentioned are things Winnower can potentially take care of.
However, the thing I like about playing in pods is that there are 3 other people there, that can potentially handle the threats of your opponents. I've been in a 5 man tournament pod, where one player was going to combo off turn 2, but he was stopped (FoW), then the next player goes, and was going to combo off, but then when priority was passed, he got stopped as well... so then that left another guy (Memnarch player), to just combo off the next turn, because everyone had already expended all their resources stopping the first couple players from comboing off turn 2-3. I was playing a Heartless Hidetsugu deck at the time this was occurring, so I had no answers, aside from Shattering Spreeing the Arcum players Sol Ring, lol. Anyway, the point I was getting to, was that in a competitive/cut-throat meta, situations occur where you're left open to play your threats unabashedly, since all the other players were focused taking out the other guys. Granted, it's a two-edged sword, because that means there are 3-4 other people there who can potentially stop YOU... but I always try to play around it, and not over-extend in those situations, unless you feel you're in the clear.
Pods are another great point - I prefer 6 or 8 player games (Preferably with a full stack of Planechase + 15 custom Planechase cards) if I can wrangle one. Many others I game with might hesitate if they haven't played my Planechase Deck, but often they really grow to like it. Sometimes there's more people that want to play my Planechase EDH stack than can fit at our 8-seat table. I know you're thinking that it must take forever - but we usually play quickly and encourage people to map out their next turn as soon as they pass their turn - and last night from 5-10 I think we got 5 4-6 player Planechase games in.
And y'know - table and pod size is something I really don't take into account when talking about EDH - but I try and point it out when I can remember to.
Pod size, mulligan and other house rules/preferences can strongly dictate card preferences that don't always make sense on the face - and local variance is something that I find is very charming about the format.
Also - ok, you've convinced me - I'll slot Void Winnower in my deck next time I play Karn.
Planechase is fun for spicing things up, that's for sure, lol. I've played Planechase EDH a couple times, and it was definitely provided interesting interactions, throughout the game(s).
I know you're thinking that it must take forever - but we usually play quickly and encourage people to map out their next turn as soon as they pass their turn - and last night from 5-10 I think we got 5 4-6 player Planechase games in.
And y'know - table and pod size is something I really don't take into account when talking about EDH - but I try and point it out when I can remember to.
I think the subject is super important when it comes to deckbuilding, and what/how you mulligan (I've always done partial Paris, with one free.).
Pod size, mulligan and other house rules/preferences can strongly dictate card preferences that don't always make sense on the face - and local variance is something that I find is very charming about the format.
Different people will see the format in different ways... and you are right, lol: There is a TON of variance in this format. If you go could hypothetically jump from meta to meta, you would see such a diversity in the ways commander is played. The format is a gem, in my opinion.
Also - ok, you've convinced me - I'll slot Void Winnower in my deck next time I play Karn.
Right on! I think you'll see it's a nice fit.
**Oh, and on a side note, I was just thinking that more players may prefer Kozilek, because of the inner Timmy that lies in us all, lol. And I know many players who play the format, don't necessarily like combo, which is what Karn mostly facilitates.**
**Oh, and on a side note, I was just thinking that more players may prefer Kozilek, because of the inner Timmy that lies in us all, lol. And I know many players who play the format, don't necessarily like combo, which is what Karn mostly facilitates.**
I had considered strongly at one point testing out Kozilek when Juwdah posted the primer - but most of the shops I play at use the 0,1,6 & 7 mulligan - and at one point his primer stressed the importance of aggressively mulling into accelerants - which made the deck a no-go for me.
I had considered strongly at one point testing out Kozilek when Juwdah posted the primer - but most of the shops I play at use the 0,1,6 & 7 mulligan - and at one point his primer stressed the importance of aggressively mulling into accelerants - which made the deck a no-go for me.
Ah, I see... makes sense why you decided against it.
Down with the draconian mulligan rules! Partial Paris or go home!! (J/K)
I have always used the partial Paris, and every playgroup I'm in uses it. I've always been satisfied with using the suggested mulligan rulings on the official commander website.
I'm an old-school player and I seem to recall the mulligan rules initially created and implemented solely to prevent people from starting the game and being landscrewed (particularly if you were playing for ante) and that nostalgia is part of the draw for the old-school mulligan.
I'm mostly against partial paris - or any partial mulligans. I understand why players like it (and I abuse the absolute crap out of it when it's available), but I've played predominantly with 0,1,6 & 7 since getting back in and it's made those games less focused on early ramp and tutoring and it's encouraged me to utilize a better curve when planning the deck - since you can't rely on even being able to mulligan a single card from your starting hand. It's shown me how hugely important the opening mulligan can be for deck construction and general playstyle. I feel strongly that Mana Crypt and Sol Ring are not problematic cards with these mulligan rules.
Being a weekly regular and veteran player at 3 shops and 1 kitchen table game, partials are also (IMHO) an unnecessary additional skill-tester that is slanted against casual or more novice players - it makes the game that much easier to win for the vets - in high-powered metas, I understand the need to mull into cheap answers - but we actively discourage arms escalation via deck content.
We try and keep our games as hospitable towards newer players as possible at my main shop. Commander has definitely exploded there in the past few years - in part because it's the easiest, cheapest and fairest avenue of play for new players.
The shops where the players prefer partial are definitely more competitive (and often less fun to me) than the ones who support the 0&1 - and I think that the option should at least be in place for more players should they want to try it.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't crossing my fingers in hopes of seeing official support of the 0&1 mulligan in 2016.
I've never seen that mulligan rule before, I just read your post over here. I feel like if I found out that was the mulligan rule though I would immediately start making a manaless dredge EDH deck. It's not really feasible normally but if I can guarantee Bazaar of Baghdad in my opening hand it might be. Not sure if there's 98 other singletons to fill it with that work with dredge though. Hmmmmmmm
I'm an old-school player and I seem to recall the mulligan rules initially created and implemented solely to prevent people from starting the game and being landscrewed (particularly if you were playing for ante) and that nostalgia is part of the draw for the old-school mulligan.
I'm mostly against partial paris - or any partial mulligans. I understand why players like it (and I abuse the absolute crap out of it when it's available), but I've played predominantly with 0,1,6 & 7 since getting back in and it's made those games less focused on early ramp and tutoring and it's encouraged me to utilize a better curve when planning the deck - since you can't rely on even being able to mulligan a single card from your starting hand. It's shown me how hugely important the opening mulligan can be for deck construction and general playstyle. I feel strongly that Mana Crypt and Sol Ring are not problematic cards with these mulligan rules.
Being a weekly regular and veteran player at 3 shops and 1 kitchen table game, partials are also (IMHO) an unnecessary additional skill-tester that is slanted against casual or more novice players - it makes the game that much easier to win for the vets - in high-powered metas, I understand the need to mull into cheap answers - but we actively discourage arms escalation via deck content.
We try and keep our games as hospitable towards newer players as possible at my main shop. Commander has definitely exploded there in the past few years - in part because it's the easiest, cheapest and fairest avenue of play for new players.
The shops where the players prefer partial are definitely more competitive (and often less fun to me) than the ones who support the 0&1 - and I think that the option should at least be in place for more players should they want to try it.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't crossing my fingers in hopes of seeing official support of the 0&1 mulligan in 2016.
Oh, I definitely understand where you're coming from, completely.
But in my opinion, one should be able to mulligan for any reason, regardless of which mulligan style the play group chooses. If you don't like your hand, you should be able to pitch it, and draw a new hand (minus one, if it's really that problematic - though I think it's perfectly reasonable in Singelton formats like EDH, to have one free mulligan.).
Now I agree that partial Paris enables players to get more abusive starts, because you're guaranteed to not get back the same cards you pitch. So, players will hold their Sol Ring and/or Mana Crypt, Mystic Remora/Rhystic Study, Force of Will, etc., and pitch into potentially more busted starts.
That can definitely get abusive, and I've seen it time and time again, in my meta.
But you know what? I happen to think it's perfectly fair, since everyone can do it. Then it just comes down to deck construction, and strength of play. Are some players going to get better starts than others sometimes? Sure! But to me, that's not a big deal... it's just a variable that can just as easily tip into your favor the next time you play, where you get a busted start, and have the potential to leave everyone else at the table in the dust. But if the playgroup is truly adamant about stopping quick starts like this from occurring all the time, then why not just get rid of the partial Paris (which is the real problem, in this scenario), and use the new Vancouver mulligan, with one free, or something? The partial Paris is what lets players keep a Sol Ring and mulligan into potentially much better/faster starts... but making it so players can't mulligan if they have 5 lands in hand, to me, is a little extreme, especially since it's a singleton format, which does have its obvious limitations.
I've honestly never considered this format to be for newer players. Since it uses Vintage legal cards, and the card pool for Magic spans over 2 decades, it's probably not the best format for new players to jump into, until they have a firm grasp of the prerequisites:
1. The Magic card pool
2. How the stack operates
3. How priority works
I'm not trying to come off as some elitist with my statement here, lol, but I know what I'm saying has to make a least a little sense.
Absolutely. I strongly concur that Partial Paris is more to blame than other factors.
Your point about Partials is completely valid - as long as the group all has great collections or is fine with proxies - but not all groups are so equal.
And I think it's those groups where partials are enforced by players with experience and large card pools that make it difficult for new players that can't add proxies to their deck to ever be on even footing.
You're at an immediate disadvantage for being a newer player - in the one format that you don't have to be.
Often with partial paris, the game is unfair before it even begins.
Hopefully in those circumstances, new players have the choice to play with another group - but not all do.
Singleton Vintage EDH certainly can be for the old folks - but at most of the shops I frequent, EDH is the format for newer players to play and learn about the game - cards & card types, stack interactions & priority and sportsmanship. They can sit there and do whatever it is that their deck is supposed to do - largely unmolested until they figure out what their deck and other players' decks do.
I guess, it just seemed easy. Yes I mean the second ability won't be used a lot but the number of times when I've had 7 or more lands is still greater than the number of times I've made a goat off of Springjack Pasture or made someone in this deck unblockable with Rogue's Passage, both of which are still in the main decklist.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
x Karn, silver golem x & RKrenko, mob bossR
My modern decks:
GUInfect GU
under construction
modern affinity & phelddagrif edh
Karn (pw),
Ugin,
Mycosynth Golem,
Akroma's Memorial,
Darksteel Forge,
Overflowing Chalice,
Myr Battlesphere,
Hangarback Walker
and All Is Dust
So probably enough cards to make it worthwhile.
Simple and effective. CMC is mitigated by how fast we can produce colorless. I am looking at four possibles so far from BFZ:
Scour from Existence - instant speed removal makes us more well rounded
Titan's Presence - See above
Void Winnower - More "taxing" effects on the back of a beater is nice
Conduit of Ruin - A tutor on legs. My issue is I have very few colorless creatures. But this set is making me rethink a lot of things....
My mana base is REALLY tight. Some of thse lands that are coming out are really interesting at least.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Honestly, kind of disappointed, nothing really game changing ever got spoiled in my opinion. Sanctum of Ugin is probably the most exciting new card for me as it provides another much needed way to tutor for our wincons, it's a land, and its basically free. That will definitely find a home. Titan's Presence also should find its way in but I do have do some math on how often I'll have the kind of creature it needs. Still though, it's hard to ignore that kind of utility in our lack of colors. Other than that there's some I'm considering but none that are too exciting.
Cards that I thought about but am pretty sure I'm rejecting
EDIT: oh and sorry, both Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Metalworker should definitely be in and stay in, they are both incredible. Metalworker is so much mana so early that its insane. And ugin is often just a win, its like our own colorless Cyclonic Rift except permanent.
Void Winnower seems to be underrated.
I prefer the new Ulamog over the old one, since I only use him for the uncounterable exile two.
Metalworker, to me, is the 4th auto-include in this deck (1. Mishra's Workshop; 2. Sol Ring; 3. Mana Crypt; 4. Metalworker). There is absolutely no reason NOT to run it here.
Ugin is just plain good here, too.
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
I guess I consider Karn one of my more casual decks so in the environment I play it in big mana makes you the big target. Obviously karn ramps up pretty quick but I prefer to explode into a win rather than just explode as soon as possible. Therefore I limit the number of big things in my deck and run obstacles and things to keep the focus off me. A 9-mana obstacle is kind of counter-intuitive at that point - I've already made myself a target so anything I want to be playing at that point should win the game very quickly.
Maybe I'll give him a shot though. It's probably time to shake up the deck a bit. Maybe I'll try to cut out some of cheap obstacles for more ramp and bigger things and take a more aggressive approach for a bit to see how that works. I pulled one in a pack after all, might as well use him.
Buying an extra turn or two, especially in this format, can mean winning the game. Especially since we're mono-brown, we can get hosed easily by certain cards/strategies.
Shatterstorm
Creeping Corrosion
Null Rod
Stony Silence
Humility
Pulverize
Bane of Progress
Armageddon
Ruination
Into the Core
Akroma's Vengeance
Serenity
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Wrath of God
Damnation
Disenchant
Clone
Power Artifact
Clever Impersonator
Ashen Rider
Utter End
Deadeye Navigator
Phyrexian Metamorph
Supreme Verdict
Primal Order
Last Word
Cryptic Command
Retaliate
Ravages of War
Obliterate
Duplicant
Nevinyrral's Disk
Aftershock
Ainok Survivalist
Ancient Grudge
Tidespout Tyrant
Decimate
Artifact Mutation
Artisan's Sorrow
Bash to Bits
Demolish
Survival of the Fittest
Sun Titan
Birthing Pod
Rite of Replication
Shatter
Omniscience
Price of Progress
Cyclonic Rift
Hurkyl's Recall
Rewind
Terminus
Chains of Mephistopheles
Pact of Negation
Demonic Tutor
Naturalize
Final Judgment
Merciless Eviction
Return to Dust
Hellkite Tyrant
Day of Judgment
Perilous Vault
Nether Void
Jokulhaups
Rakdos Charm
etc. etc. etc. /ad nauseam
And I'm not even getting into the busted Commanders it shuts off (Arcum, and Narset to name a couple).
All those cards, and many many more, are effectively shut off by him... making your opponents options of dealing with the Winnower, and your threats, THAT much harder to do.
In mono-brown, we have VERY limited options in dealing board wipes, and static effects that hose our game plan... Winnower at least gives us more of a chance to stay in the game, and sometimes, all that matters is getting that one extra turn, to turn the game into a victory.
Winnower only helps us with our game plan, tilting the odds in our favor, every time it hits the board. It may not win the game for us every time (no card does), but the Winnower definitely helps our game plan here, and it's good at what it does.
I play in one of the most competitive/cut-throat metas in the world. I am not an EDH player who agrees with the motto: "Your deck should be good, but NOT TOO good." I just don't understand the logic. The objective is to win. Now, I know some players don't just play to win, and that's fine... but it's STILL the objective of the game.
I personally find nothing wrong with degenerate combos, or fast wins in this format. I believe if someone is on the receiving end of such a thrashing, they should just suck it up, and move on to the next game. I actually have fun playing, win or lose. I don't care how I lose, I just shuffle up, and go on to the next game.
I guess the point I'm trying to make, is that during my playtesting of the card, in my meta, it has playability. I'm not saying the card is great for all commanders, I'm only testifying its use in Karn.
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
If you are playing Karn in a cut-throat meta against tuned Narset and Arcum decks with success I'd be really curious what your decklist is. Mind sharing?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/637506-karn-silver-golem
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
There's certainly room in Karn to be competitive - but with Stony Silence, From the Ashes, Bane of Progress and others - the threat of being stuck in a game that you can't actively participate in is a real thing - and while it might happen occasionally, most of the groups I frequent don't want to single out any player by crippling their ability to play (for very long, at least).
Karn could probably hang in a cutthroat meta, but I'm not sure if I personally would get 100% enjoyment from it in such an environment - I'd likely bring another deck.
Esper is good, no doubt. Tutors and removal, and whatnot... but I wouldn't say Sydri completely replaces Karn, because it's much easier to ramp into colorless than it is in esper, because you can play all the mana rocks and never worry about color fixing.
The allure of the uncounterable draw 4 is tempting, but I enjoy the Karn shenanigans, and the interactions it causes in multiplayer.
I had a Kozilek player scoop to Winnower, recently. It was a little amusing, lol. However, I know how good he can be as a commander, but I'm not convinced he's strictly better than Karn (given the interactions he can have with boardstates).
All the cards you mentioned are things Winnower can potentially take care of.
However, the thing I like about playing in pods is that there are 3 other people there, that can potentially handle the threats of your opponents. I've been in a 5 man tournament pod, where one player was going to combo off turn 2, but he was stopped (FoW), then the next player goes, and was going to combo off, but then when priority was passed, he got stopped as well... so then that left another guy (Memnarch player), to just combo off the next turn, because everyone had already expended all their resources stopping the first couple players from comboing off turn 2-3. I was playing a Heartless Hidetsugu deck at the time this was occurring, so I had no answers, aside from Shattering Spreeing the Arcum players Sol Ring, lol. Anyway, the point I was getting to, was that in a competitive/cut-throat meta, situations occur where you're left open to play your threats unabashedly, since all the other players were focused taking out the other guys. Granted, it's a two-edged sword, because that means there are 3-4 other people there who can potentially stop YOU... but I always try to play around it, and not over-extend in those situations, unless you feel you're in the clear.
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
And y'know - table and pod size is something I really don't take into account when talking about EDH - but I try and point it out when I can remember to.
Pod size, mulligan and other house rules/preferences can strongly dictate card preferences that don't always make sense on the face - and local variance is something that I find is very charming about the format.
Also - ok, you've convinced me - I'll slot Void Winnower in my deck next time I play Karn.
That's pretty cool! Sounds like a blast.
I think the subject is super important when it comes to deckbuilding, and what/how you mulligan (I've always done partial Paris, with one free.).
Different people will see the format in different ways... and you are right, lol: There is a TON of variance in this format. If you go could hypothetically jump from meta to meta, you would see such a diversity in the ways commander is played. The format is a gem, in my opinion.
Right on! I think you'll see it's a nice fit.
**Oh, and on a side note, I was just thinking that more players may prefer Kozilek, because of the inner Timmy that lies in us all, lol. And I know many players who play the format, don't necessarily like combo, which is what Karn mostly facilitates.**
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
I had considered strongly at one point testing out Kozilek when Juwdah posted the primer - but most of the shops I play at use the 0,1,6 & 7 mulligan - and at one point his primer stressed the importance of aggressively mulling into accelerants - which made the deck a no-go for me.
Ah, I see... makes sense why you decided against it.
Down with the draconian mulligan rules! Partial Paris or go home!! (J/K)
I have always used the partial Paris, and every playgroup I'm in uses it. I've always been satisfied with using the suggested mulligan rulings on the official commander website.
Meh...
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
I'm mostly against partial paris - or any partial mulligans. I understand why players like it (and I abuse the absolute crap out of it when it's available), but I've played predominantly with 0,1,6 & 7 since getting back in and it's made those games less focused on early ramp and tutoring and it's encouraged me to utilize a better curve when planning the deck - since you can't rely on even being able to mulligan a single card from your starting hand. It's shown me how hugely important the opening mulligan can be for deck construction and general playstyle. I feel strongly that Mana Crypt and Sol Ring are not problematic cards with these mulligan rules.
Being a weekly regular and veteran player at 3 shops and 1 kitchen table game, partials are also (IMHO) an unnecessary additional skill-tester that is slanted against casual or more novice players - it makes the game that much easier to win for the vets - in high-powered metas, I understand the need to mull into cheap answers - but we actively discourage arms escalation via deck content.
We try and keep our games as hospitable towards newer players as possible at my main shop. Commander has definitely exploded there in the past few years - in part because it's the easiest, cheapest and fairest avenue of play for new players.
The shops where the players prefer partial are definitely more competitive (and often less fun to me) than the ones who support the 0&1 - and I think that the option should at least be in place for more players should they want to try it.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't crossing my fingers in hopes of seeing official support of the 0&1 mulligan in 2016.
Oh, I definitely understand where you're coming from, completely.
But in my opinion, one should be able to mulligan for any reason, regardless of which mulligan style the play group chooses. If you don't like your hand, you should be able to pitch it, and draw a new hand (minus one, if it's really that problematic - though I think it's perfectly reasonable in Singelton formats like EDH, to have one free mulligan.).
Now I agree that partial Paris enables players to get more abusive starts, because you're guaranteed to not get back the same cards you pitch. So, players will hold their Sol Ring and/or Mana Crypt, Mystic Remora/Rhystic Study, Force of Will, etc., and pitch into potentially more busted starts.
That can definitely get abusive, and I've seen it time and time again, in my meta.
But you know what? I happen to think it's perfectly fair, since everyone can do it. Then it just comes down to deck construction, and strength of play. Are some players going to get better starts than others sometimes? Sure! But to me, that's not a big deal... it's just a variable that can just as easily tip into your favor the next time you play, where you get a busted start, and have the potential to leave everyone else at the table in the dust. But if the playgroup is truly adamant about stopping quick starts like this from occurring all the time, then why not just get rid of the partial Paris (which is the real problem, in this scenario), and use the new Vancouver mulligan, with one free, or something? The partial Paris is what lets players keep a Sol Ring and mulligan into potentially much better/faster starts... but making it so players can't mulligan if they have 5 lands in hand, to me, is a little extreme, especially since it's a singleton format, which does have its obvious limitations.
I've honestly never considered this format to be for newer players. Since it uses Vintage legal cards, and the card pool for Magic spans over 2 decades, it's probably not the best format for new players to jump into, until they have a firm grasp of the prerequisites:
1. The Magic card pool
2. How the stack operates
3. How priority works
I'm not trying to come off as some elitist with my statement here, lol, but I know what I'm saying has to make a least a little sense.
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
1. X Karn, Silver Golem X
2. GWU Derevi, Empyrial Tactician GWU
Your point about Partials is completely valid - as long as the group all has great collections or is fine with proxies - but not all groups are so equal.
And I think it's those groups where partials are enforced by players with experience and large card pools that make it difficult for new players that can't add proxies to their deck to ever be on even footing.
You're at an immediate disadvantage for being a newer player - in the one format that you don't have to be.
Often with partial paris, the game is unfair before it even begins.
Hopefully in those circumstances, new players have the choice to play with another group - but not all do.
Singleton Vintage EDH certainly can be for the old folks - but at most of the shops I frequent, EDH is the format for newer players to play and learn about the game - cards & card types, stack interactions & priority and sportsmanship. They can sit there and do whatever it is that their deck is supposed to do - largely unmolested until they figure out what their deck and other players' decks do.