I think it was announced they could do it at pax Australia a while back. I just mention it because there could be a colorless matters theme in BFZ.
I can't find an exact quote but it sounds like MaRo talked about some rule changes that would make colorless decks stronger and more able to survive Wave of Vitriol and Aaron said they have figured out a solution to the colorless basic issue. They were both specifically talking about it in the context of commander though so while there may be something in BFZ I'm leaning towards one of the precons in commander 2016 being colorless. Either way, seems like great news for us!
Yeah one of my favorite things about karn the amount of love we get there is pretty much always going to be one or two cards in a set to seriously consider for our list usally in the form of one land and one artifact or other spell.
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My EDH decks: xKarn, silver golemx & RKrenko, mob bossR
My modern decks: GUInfectGU
under construction
modern affinity & phelddagrif edh
Okay, serious question: is Ancient Tomb good? I've been playing a Karn build for about 4 years and I've always thought the card seemed bad. I know it's an amazing card in regular Magic, and I could see running it in 1-vs-1 EDH, but it's banned in that format. Is being 1 mana ahead of everyone really worth so much pain in the long run?
PS: My group is pretty casual, and my Karn deck doesn't run infinite combos or Mycosynth Lattice. Is Ancient Tomb mostly worthwhile against more cutthroat opponents?
Well, in practice Ancient Tomb ideally gets you a Turn 1 Grim Monolith or a turn 3 Thran Dynamo - so it's often less about being one turn ahead and more about not having to wait for an additional land drop to ramp 2 or 3 turns ahead.
However, if you're playing in a casual group where establishing your board presence is more laid back, I'd say that you definitely could skip it and the deck would not suffer because of it - but most of the deck is like that already.
Seems very playable. Are we still playing Blinkmoth Urn? If so I think we cut it for this. Urn always bothered me, truth be told I think it might actually be bad for us. It obviously sounds good since we have a lot of artifacts but in practice it always seemed very winmore when it's working the way its supposed to and obviously horrible if you've just been wiped or something. Worse your opponents get to take some benefit out of it first and if you were winning that little extra mana boost could be exactly what they need to get back into the game. This is a solid, playable rock that can cycle for card advantage, I like it a lot.
I moved in to Karn about a year ago. I am more of an aggressive player and I value this deck because it teaches me other aspects of the game. I only like to maintain one deck in a given format so this is my only deck.
Seems very playable. Are we still playing Blinkmoth Urn? If so I think we cut it for this. Urn always bothered me, truth be told I think it might actually be bad for us. It obviously sounds good since we have a lot of artifacts but in practice it always seemed very winmore when it's working the way its supposed to and obviously horrible if you've just been wiped or something. Worse your opponents get to take some benefit out of it first and if you were winning that little extra mana boost could be exactly what they need to get back into the game. This is a solid, playable rock that can cycle for card advantage, I like it a lot.
Hedron Archive is a card I've said I wanted years ago. I'll likely find a spot for it - I'm not sure about blinkmoth Urn - but that might be a good starting place.
@StudderingDave - I definitely dig it, bro. We do a weird mull locally where you can only take a free 7 mulligan if you have too many or too few lands (there's no partial mulligans) so decks with an average CMC of higher than 3 tend to be really slow. Do you find this deck take a bit longer than you'd like to set up - or do you manage to get set up just fine before too much craziness happens in the game ? Also, no Metalworker?
when did they unban metalworker? WHEN!i feel like it is christmas all over.
my deck is pretty known in my meta. We have a ton of upstarts who come in with precons so my slow deck has time to form.
I played in a quick 4 pod today with three newer guys that needed a 4th and I had some time. All three guys had one of the commander planeswalker decks, only one of which made any modifications. One guy killed off another quickly but weakened himself. I sent over a few animated artifacts ala Karn to finish him off. The last guy was playing straight green but I didnt see any artifact hate. I assembled the voltaic construct combo and rode Staff of Nin to victory.
What are your thoughts about dragon throne of tarkir? I included it on a whim - but now, its a very real possibility of swinging with my team for lethal instead of having to combo.
I like that. I like the option of being able to aggro out quickly. I ran Coat of Arms for a bit since I was Myr heavy in the beginning. I could slap the throne on a cheap fatty like Soul of New Phyrexia or even Karn and let my team rip.
Did you see Titan's Presence? How about some instant speed removal for us?
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I was thinking the same thing. I slotted in Nova Pentacle and Icy Manipulator last night because I had spares and I have no flex spots left. I think that new Ulamog is straight up better then his previous version for my needs (removal) so its just a swap there. I know its first world problems but I worry about adding too much colorless to the deck because I have had games where I started off early with a Mishra's Workshop (sometimes copying it) and had Eldrazi sitting in my hand because they cannot be cast with Workshop mana.
I was thinking the same thing. I slotted in Nova Pentacle and Icy Manipulator last night because I had spares and I have no flex spots left. I think that new Ulamog is straight up better then his previous version for my needs (removal) so its just a swap there. I know its first world problems but I worry about adding too much colorless to the deck because I have had games where I started off early with a Mishra's Workshop (sometimes copying it) and had Eldrazi sitting in my hand because they cannot be cast with Workshop mana.
Well maybe but there is one serious downside - no shuffle your graveyard clause. Half of my reason for wanting to include one of those big fellas is for recursion. Recursion is such a problem in this deck I want it to reshuffle my library when it hits the graveyard however it gets there. Since the new one lacks that clause I'm leaning away from it. Although I will admit, that cast trigger is awesome.
I concur. I think the shuffle triggers were a huge part of what made the originals great. I hope some of the other new eldrazi "titans" still have that trigger.
Hello all! I have been playing Karn for a relatively small amount of time comparatively speaking - that is, only about a year and a half - and I have an honest question about Deal Broker in this list. First off, I was told by my LGS that he isn't even legal in commander, but that aside I switched him out for a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. I find that the draw four makes up for the lack of deal broker and you get the added bonus of the entire graveyard recursion as well as the fatty. Thoughts? The looks I get when I use this deck are always priceless, and for that I thank you, OP. I had a "decent" deck before I found this thread, but when I started looking at it, it had just been an animate and swing deck. This thread is amazing!
On a similar note, I'm seriously wondering if there may have to be a split after Battle for Zendikar. Do you guys think that the whole colorless mechanic will produce enough things usable with the artifact theme that the deck may have to change significantly?
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—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
I am so excited for this set! I get the feeling, though, that the new U;amog is going to be banned in commander fairly soon. As sad as that makes me, I just can't see him staying legal.
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I think he's going to be fine. For 10, other decks are already Tooth&Nail-ing, Cyclonic Rift-ing and Great Aurora-ing. Exiling 2 with a non-hasty body seems relatively tame compared to that. I'm hoping for more compelling designs from the other legendary eldrazi.
Hello all! I have been playing Karn for a relatively small amount of time comparatively speaking - that is, only about a year and a half - and I have an honest question about Deal Broker in this list. First off, I was told by my LGS that he isn't even legal in commander, but that aside I switched him out for a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. I find that the draw four makes up for the lack of deal broker and you get the added bonus of the entire graveyard recursion as well as the fatty. Thoughts? The looks I get when I use this deck are always priceless, and for that I thank you, OP. I had a "decent" deck before I found this thread, but when I started looking at it, it had just been an animate and swing deck. This thread is amazing!
On a similar note, I'm seriously wondering if there may have to be a split after Battle for Zendikar. Do you guys think that the whole colorless mechanic will produce enough things usable with the artifact theme that the deck may have to change significantly?
Deal Broker is absolutely legal in any eternal playable format, if anyone gives you any trouble just redirect them to gatherer. The fact that he has a lot of text that only applies to draft doesn't make him illegal, it just means he has a lot of dead text during normal play. If that made him unplayable then he would never have actually been legal, he has the same amount of dead text in any game you play him in even if you are actually doing a draft. The minute the draft is over all that text is dead.
As for the swap, that works but it is rather amusing. Normally people don't swap out CMC 3 things for CMC 10 things. In my mind they have radically different use cases. Deal broker adds some cheap, reusable card selection you can use to improve the quality of your hand throughout the game, kozi is a game-winner.
FWIW though I recently added both ulamog and kozi as well. I found the deck was a little too easy to disrupt. Everyone throws in some artifact and nonbasic hate and they fling it out the minute you become remotely threatening because they know that while it hurts everyone it totally destroys karn. However the one thing in this deck I can almost always count on is a lot of colorless mana. So I'm trying them out as alternate wincons that demand attention and non-artifact hating answers. They can run away with the game if not immediately answered and I can continue setting up my combo(s) behind them in case they are answered.
Plus they obviously provide needed utilities - exiling, card draw and graveyard recursion.
I am so excited for this set! I get the feeling, though, that the new U;amog is going to be banned in commander fairly soon. As sad as that makes me, I just can't see him staying legal.
This confuses me, I don't see why he would be banned, he really doesn't seem all that threatening in commander. If someone taps out 10 an plays him and picks 2 of my permanents to exile then I'll groan but probably just be glad it wasn't a Terastodon. And I mean they are tapping out 10 for him so exiling two permanents seems fair.
His actual body doesn't even concern me. He can exile cards all day from my library, as long as I have a library left at the end I don't care. So that means I have 4 turns to find an answer while I lose my smallest creature a turn chump-blocking him. If I can't find an answer to this guy in 4 turns then I deserve to lose and I need to remake my deck.
I've been piloting a Karn list for a while now and I find it hard to cut another land for this. The deck thrives on not needing seven or more lands because of all the artifact ramp. If you're at seven lands in the deck then you either already have enough mana or have had a terribly slow game.
Honestly, I'd rather run a utility land in its place. Love the art though and I think it's good in a more budget list but it's hard to have it compete around all-star lands like Rishadan Port, Strip Mine, or Ancient Tomb.
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I can't find an exact quote but it sounds like MaRo talked about some rule changes that would make colorless decks stronger and more able to survive Wave of Vitriol and Aaron said they have figured out a solution to the colorless basic issue. They were both specifically talking about it in the context of commander though so while there may be something in BFZ I'm leaning towards one of the precons in commander 2016 being colorless. Either way, seems like great news for us!
x Karn, silver golem x & RKrenko, mob bossR
My modern decks:
GUInfect GU
under construction
modern affinity & phelddagrif edh
Are all currently being tested in Karn
I'll update the list when I've gotten enough test feedback.
PS: My group is pretty casual, and my Karn deck doesn't run infinite combos or Mycosynth Lattice. Is Ancient Tomb mostly worthwhile against more cutthroat opponents?
However, if you're playing in a casual group where establishing your board presence is more laid back, I'd say that you definitely could skip it and the deck would not suffer because of it - but most of the deck is like that already.
Seems very playable. Are we still playing Blinkmoth Urn? If so I think we cut it for this. Urn always bothered me, truth be told I think it might actually be bad for us. It obviously sounds good since we have a lot of artifacts but in practice it always seemed very winmore when it's working the way its supposed to and obviously horrible if you've just been wiped or something. Worse your opponents get to take some benefit out of it first and if you were winning that little extra mana boost could be exactly what they need to get back into the game. This is a solid, playable rock that can cycle for card advantage, I like it a lot.
1 Karn Silver Golem
1 Dark Depths
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 It That Betrays
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Soul of New Phyrexia
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Urza's Mine
1 Urza's Tower
1 Urza's Power Plant
1 Dust Bowl
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Encroaching Wastes
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Buried Ruin
1 Deserted Temple
1 Scorched Ruins
1 Homeward Path
1 Blinkmoth Well
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Crystal Vein
1 Strip Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Phyrexia's Core
1 Wasteland
1 Vesuva
1 Temple of the False God
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Dreamstone Hedron
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Staff of Nin
1 Skullclamp
1 Planar Portal
1 Howling Mine
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mind's Eye
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Citanul Flute
1 Ring of Three Wishes
1 Scroll Rack
1 Expedition Map
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Tangle Wire
1 Jester's Cap
1 Mimic Vat
1 Torpor Orb
1 Trinisphere
1 Mindslaver
1 Static Orb
1 Myr Incubator
1 Forcefield
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Shimmer Myr
1 Voltaic Key
1 Winter Orb
1 Storm Cauldron
1 Tawnos's Coffin
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 All is Dust
1 Karn Liberated
1 Perilous Vault
1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Staff of Domination
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Myr Turbine
1 Arcbound Reclaimer
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Trading Post
1 Jhoira's Toolbox
1 Voltaic Construct
1 Semblance Anvil
1 Clock of Omens
1 Crucible of Worlds
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
Hedron Archive is a card I've said I wanted years ago. I'll likely find a spot for it - I'm not sure about blinkmoth Urn - but that might be a good starting place.
@StudderingDave - I definitely dig it, bro. We do a weird mull locally where you can only take a free 7 mulligan if you have too many or too few lands (there's no partial mulligans) so decks with an average CMC of higher than 3 tend to be really slow. Do you find this deck take a bit longer than you'd like to set up - or do you manage to get set up just fine before too much craziness happens in the game ? Also, no Metalworker?
my deck is pretty known in my meta. We have a ton of upstarts who come in with precons so my slow deck has time to form.
I played in a quick 4 pod today with three newer guys that needed a 4th and I had some time. All three guys had one of the commander planeswalker decks, only one of which made any modifications. One guy killed off another quickly but weakened himself. I sent over a few animated artifacts ala Karn to finish him off. The last guy was playing straight green but I didnt see any artifact hate. I assembled the voltaic construct combo and rode Staff of Nin to victory.
current tweaks:
+ Duplicant
+ Eldrazi Temple
+ Gargoyle Castle
+ Urza's Factory
- Storm Couldron
- Blinkmoth Well
- Springjack Pasture
- Vesuva
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
Did you see Titan's Presence? How about some instant speed removal for us?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
Plus I still need to work in Metalworker
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
Well maybe but there is one serious downside - no shuffle your graveyard clause. Half of my reason for wanting to include one of those big fellas is for recursion. Recursion is such a problem in this deck I want it to reshuffle my library when it hits the graveyard however it gets there. Since the new one lacks that clause I'm leaning away from it. Although I will admit, that cast trigger is awesome.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig!
On a similar note, I'm seriously wondering if there may have to be a split after Battle for Zendikar. Do you guys think that the whole colorless mechanic will produce enough things usable with the artifact theme that the deck may have to change significantly?
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Thanks for the kind words! I plan on overhauling the primer after I get to play with some of the goodies from BFZ.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Deal Broker is absolutely legal in any eternal playable format, if anyone gives you any trouble just redirect them to gatherer. The fact that he has a lot of text that only applies to draft doesn't make him illegal, it just means he has a lot of dead text during normal play. If that made him unplayable then he would never have actually been legal, he has the same amount of dead text in any game you play him in even if you are actually doing a draft. The minute the draft is over all that text is dead.
As for the swap, that works but it is rather amusing. Normally people don't swap out CMC 3 things for CMC 10 things. In my mind they have radically different use cases. Deal broker adds some cheap, reusable card selection you can use to improve the quality of your hand throughout the game, kozi is a game-winner.
FWIW though I recently added both ulamog and kozi as well. I found the deck was a little too easy to disrupt. Everyone throws in some artifact and nonbasic hate and they fling it out the minute you become remotely threatening because they know that while it hurts everyone it totally destroys karn. However the one thing in this deck I can almost always count on is a lot of colorless mana. So I'm trying them out as alternate wincons that demand attention and non-artifact hating answers. They can run away with the game if not immediately answered and I can continue setting up my combo(s) behind them in case they are answered.
Plus they obviously provide needed utilities - exiling, card draw and graveyard recursion.
This confuses me, I don't see why he would be banned, he really doesn't seem all that threatening in commander. If someone taps out 10 an plays him and picks 2 of my permanents to exile then I'll groan but probably just be glad it wasn't a Terastodon. And I mean they are tapping out 10 for him so exiling two permanents seems fair.
His actual body doesn't even concern me. He can exile cards all day from my library, as long as I have a library left at the end I don't care. So that means I have 4 turns to find an answer while I lose my smallest creature a turn chump-blocking him. If I can't find an answer to this guy in 4 turns then I deserve to lose and I need to remake my deck.
Welp, that's in lol.
I've been piloting a Karn list for a while now and I find it hard to cut another land for this. The deck thrives on not needing seven or more lands because of all the artifact ramp. If you're at seven lands in the deck then you either already have enough mana or have had a terribly slow game.
Honestly, I'd rather run a utility land in its place. Love the art though and I think it's good in a more budget list but it's hard to have it compete around all-star lands like Rishadan Port, Strip Mine, or Ancient Tomb.