My deck is creature-less except for the combo pieces that have to be creatures (Disciple, Metamorph, Sharuum) so the Tainted Aether is not just for the combo, but to help in controlling the opponent's boards. I would almost always cast this where with my other combo pieces I will hold them until I get everything in place and ready to go.
Quick aside, I took my list up against a friend's Arcum Dagsson list last night, 1v1. Out of three games I pulled off one win using Dire Undercurrents, Sharuum, and Phyrexian Metamorph. The other games he just got too much of a jump on me, and even though I have a ton of removal, his stuff gets indestructible status with the Darksteel Forge so early in the game that it is very hard to deal with. One game he locked me down with a stupid Mirror Gallery! So much for my combo there. It was still a lot of fun though. It was nice playing against someone who really doesn't care that I'm playing combo, as he was also playing combo.
Anyway, comment here or on my blog about my Sharuum list. I appreciate any and all feedback!
Tainted Aether takes the place of the Sculpting Steel. Instead of copying Sharuum and using the Legend rule to get her into the graveyard, with this one you play her, then sacrifice her with the enter the battlefield trigger on the stack. Use the trigger to bring her back and sacrifice her again. Repeat infinitely until you win the game.
So that work the same way than sculpting steel, except you can finish the loop with copying an extra mana or other artefact like with sculpting steel.
It's good, but i think not enough, or we have to add Disciple of the vault to the deck wich is not so great, you know 1/1 creature don't stay that long.
I feel the deck very very resilient to wrath effect because of this choice.
But hey well good budget combo !
For RtR : Chromatic lantern seem huge for me, i have some mana base trouble sometimes and i use a better than yours (i think) with fetchland's and Bi-land/rav-land add.
I have test a Mishra's Workshop and that doesn't do enough except when i have a magister on turn 2... and it's not what we except about that deck so she moves away.
This does not actually work.
When Sharuum enters the battlefield, you have to put her ability on the stack (and the Aether's ability). This means you have to choose a target for it. THEN you sacrifice her, THEN you return the targeted thing to play.
The only reason Sculpting Steel works is because, whenever something happens, this is the order of events:
1) Check state-based effects (like lethal damage, legend rule, etc)
2) Stack triggers that trigger from that event (and from state-based effects)
3) active player gets priority.
So before you stack the trigger and choose your target, both Sharuum and the Steel are put into the yard due to SBE - legend rule. Then you stack the trigger, targeting Sharuum, then you resolve the trigger, returning her to play (returning the Steel, etc etc)
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When Sharuum enters the battlefield, you have to put her ability on the stack (and the Aether's ability). This means you have to choose a target for it. THEN you sacrifice her, THEN you return the targeted thing to play.
The only reason Sculpting Steel works is because, whenever something happens, this is the order of events:
1) Check state-based effects (like lethal damage, legend rule, etc)
2) Stack triggers that trigger from that event (and from state-based effects)
3) active player gets priority.
So before you stack the trigger and choose your target, both Sharuum and the Steel are put into the yard due to SBE - legend rule. Then you stack the trigger, targeting Sharuum, then you resolve the trigger, returning her to play (returning the Steel, etc etc)
Oh well... not part of the combo then, but still a good control card in a creature-less deck. I might take it out for something else though since this doesn't work.
Salutations are long over due, but hello again everyone!
I apologize severely for the lack of updates recently. About a month ago, I found out my grandmother had a tumor on one of her ovaries. I've been making trips to the hospital along with taking care of her house. Coupled with school work, I literally haven't gone anywhere except work, home, and the hospital within the last month and have gotten ZERO amount of testing done. I'm happy to say that Grandma is on the upswing-she was operated on, and has six months of chemo ahead of her, but things are finally starting to calm down.
With that said, a couple of things:
1. I've had several people send me private PMs about making a "budget" list for Sharuum. Since everyone's definition of "budget" seems up in the air, I'd like you guys to give me a guesstimate as to how much would be acceptable for such a list. I've heard everything from 200 dollars to below 100, so I'd appreciate some sort of median number to work with. The budget list will be included in the OP when completed, and naturally, will be discussed ad- nauseum here before it finally goes up.
2. On Chromatic Lattern: Personally, I'm still going to use Darksteel Ingot, but this is a more than suitable replacement effect. In fact, I'll likely make the switch at some point mysef, as since we're a combo list, we want to be able to use the exact colors of mana we need, when we need it.
3. I'm working on a Grimgrin Storm combo list as well.
I appreciate you guys taking the time to both bump this (pseudo) primer and keeping interest maintained over the last few weeks. I greatly appreciate it.
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Still no real news on the decklist. I've gotten some testing in over the last month with Codex Shredder, with mixed results. I've been looking for something that allowed for easy recursion of things like tutors and such, but I've yet to be heavily impressed with shredder. 5 mana is a lot, despite our selection of mana rocks, and it's very cumbersome to work alongside Salvaging Station and Trading Post. The number of cards it could grab that you would wish to re-use are also extremely limited.
So, no new updates on the list. I'm sorry. That's the tragedy of playing artifact centric decks like this.
However, I do have some reasonably exciting news!
Chewie (@themanapool on twitter) and myself have been selected for Gunslinging at GP Charleston! It's a big honor, and we're extremely excited to have the opportunity. This means Sharuum will be making a splash in a BIG way very soon, so I should have some exciting stories to tell (at the least) within a few weeks. With that said, if any of you are planning on coming out to the event, please feel free to let me know. You have all been a huge help in making this "primer" (we'll use that word carefully so we don't piss off the mods) a reality, and It would be great to meet some of you in person.
Chewie and I will be arriving friday around lunchish to 6 PM, depending on traffic and the like. I don't know what exactly we'll be doing other than gunslinging-we're trying to come up with some cool events for the community, so I'll be sure to keep you guys updated.
I look forward to seeing some of you!
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First of all, I must say that a Sharuum thread this informed and concise is rare and a greatly appreciated breath of fresh air. As a Sharuum pilot for 5+ years, I love the deck, as it satisfies my Vintage yearnings as a shop player in a multiplayer format. I still get my vintage interactions, but get to apply them in a group format.
I just had some question for you with regards to your list and play, along with a few comments for some of the more recent posts. I'm sure most of the answers will come down to metagame calls, but I feel the need to ask them anyway.
My attitude when playing this deck is that I will get hit with an average of 3 board-wipes a game (both due to people being intimidated, and by splash damage for other threats, and yes, the game can be that hostile). Is there a reason you forgo using Roar of Reclamation in addition to Open the Vaults. In my experience, the overlap is more effective than the targeted and use of traditional reanimation spells.
I have not seen any mention of the use of Ensnaring Bridge in any of the posts in this thread. Ensnaring Bridge has been very clutch in preventing the table from alpha-striking me and has been super important in hosing titans, which can get out of hand. Since you are using thopter foundry, and can manage your hand well enough to allow the 1/1s to attack naturally on your turn as a kill condition, what are your reasons for not running it? Is it due to mono-blue tez as a main kill or is it something else?
Mycosynth Lattice has been a pretty awesome "do nothing" card in my deck, much like Thopter Assemply has been in yours. I've used it in conjunction with many cards to great benefit, and it lets me card everything without concern for color screw. Are you aware of the synergies between Mycosynth Lattice and the many parts of your list (especially and Tezzeret, AoB and his ultimate) and is there a reason you don't use that as part of your 99.
Timetwister, and Compulsive Research. What has been the overall experiences that make the deeper digging worth more than cards in hand. In my experience, I need cards in hand in order to recover easier from the eventual wipe, and to hit my lands in a timely fashion.
I prefer to play threats than answers, which is why my list forgoes counterspells. I noticed that your lone counterspell is really a tutor more than a counterspell. Do you feel your list needs counterspells at all? Why or why not?
What are you feelings on the Ravnica bounce-lands? My list wants to play as few tap-lands as possible, but my list is nearly 50/50 with mana sources (land and artifact) and non-mana spells. They were very helpful before Sundering Titan got banned, as it allowed me to play Titan with no repercussion (my artifacts took care of mana issues from Blood moon or Back to Basics. I run 35 lands and 14-15 non-land mana sources in my list, but aside from rebuying Bojuka Bog, I'm not sure they are still warrented
Lastly, a few comments -
A few years ago, after trying many different builds, I have discovered that the most effective list I've thrown together is a list that wins big by winning small. The cumulative advantage gained by using spellbombs, capsules, and recursive effects (the "salvaging station feedback engine" if you will) allows you to be able to further your goals and solidify your position without reprisal from the entire table. Yes, Sharuum is strong enough to goldfish combo style and win very quickly, but the most consistent wins come from the former method. It is nice to see that I am not alone in this sentiment.
Chromatic Lantern is awesome for this deck. I am hesitant to remove it for Darksteel Ingot because Ingot can protect Tez, AoB very well and has great synergy with Karn (indestructible 5/5 or 3/3 is no joke). It may get the cut for Coalition Relic, which I've used to great success. I do run Workshop, so it gains marginal extra utility there.
I cannot find room for Trading Post. It seems like it would be insane, and not I am being told that it is.
I run both Inkmoth Nexus and Tez agent of bolas, and neither have been in play at the same time during the combat step. The thought of dealing 5 infect for a single mana just made me salivate a little.
Overall, I try to have as many cards in the deck feed into each other. The reason I use the Bitter Ordeal kill over the other combo kills like Disciple of the Vault or Extractor Demon is that I can use effectively outside of the Sharuum engine. It can extract threats or answers from other decks just by playing your game (a capsule use and a fetch activation is often 4 cards) even without the infi mill. Time Sieve protects your permanents from exile, and buys you a turn to recover if they do try to mess with your board, and to a degree, so does Thopter Foundry. The deck has many feedback loops (cards that interact with other cards to create a system of synergies and not just a few 2-3 card combos). From the subtleties of Salvaging station interactions, to rewarding intricate knowledge of game rules and the stack, this type of build rewards high-level play, and you never really play the same game twice. Five years later, I am still finding new lines of play with this deck, and new interactions with my group from every newly-released set.
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My attitude when playing this deck is that I will get hit with an average of 3 board-wipes a game (both due to people being intimidated, and by splash damage for other threats, and yes, the game can be that hostile).
its not that we (well, i) am intimidated. it is just usually the right play to bang on the sharuum player. who in their right mind would let a forgemaster rock on the sharuum players side of the table with enough artifacts to activate a minimum of 2 times?
its not that we (well, i) am intimidated. it is just usually the right play to bang on the sharuum player.
My point exactly... Thank you Bederndern (our resident Saffi and Azusa player). During that game, for two turn cycles, I got 4 artifacts individually blown off the table (no sweeper, just targeted effects) by each opponent, 2 spells countered and my graveyard removed twice (the second time of which was pretty pointless) with no other player being targeted by anything between turns 4 and 5, and still came back to win it. You may not personally be intimidated (I don't think anyone who plays with us would be), but as a player there was obviously something that your deck (and the table) did not want to see hit play or that you felt I was showing (you're smarter than tutoring up a Stomphowler to just off mana rocks), hence the comment.
My deck ratio is approximately 50/50 artifacts to non-artifacts and 50/50 mana sources to non-mana sources, so having 6 random artifacts by turn 6 by access of a draw spell will almost always happen, even without foundry combo. If those artifacts happen to be some ramp and artifact lands, they'll still pull the trigger on the sweeper, even if I'm not showing anything. (Maybe there's a point achievement for killing me specifically... I don't know). Regardless, the forgemaster wasn't critical... Which is why I played it. If it rocks, it can push me ahead, if not, I'm not sweating it, it's not what I needed for the next few turns.
The deck is extremely resilient, and playing it is a labor of love (with an emphasis on labor). At a certain point everyone runs out of gas, and then you take over anyway. The deck has come back from having one permenant left on the table (a land), but that is exactly why I prefer the card draw spells over digging spells... To give you gas when everyone's tank is on E.
As illustrated above, some are more hostile than others, but that always depends on how they achieve their endgame. Either way, the deck is powerful, so I can't be mad when it draws that kind of fire. I take it as a compliment for my deck's tanacity and my tight play.
My attitude when playing this deck is that I will get hit with an average of 3 board-wipes a game (both due to people being intimidated, and by splash damage for other threats, and yes, the game can be that hostile). Is there a reason you forgo using Roar of Reclamation in addition to Open the Vaults. In my experience, the overlap is more effective than the targeted and use of traditional reanimation spells.
I have not seen any mention of the use of Ensnaring Bridge in any of the posts in this thread. Ensnaring Bridge has been very clutch in preventing the table from alpha-striking me and has been super important in hosing titans, which can get out of hand. Since you are using thopter foundry, and can manage your hand well enough to allow the 1/1s to attack naturally on your turn as a kill condition, what are your reasons for not running it? Is it due to mono-blue tez as a main kill or is it something else?
Mycosynth Lattice has been a pretty awesome "do nothing" card in my deck, much like Thopter Assemply has been in yours. I've used it in conjunction with many cards to great benefit, and it lets me card everything without concern for color screw. Are you aware of the synergies between Mycosynth Lattice and the many parts of your list (especially and Tezzeret, AoB and his ultimate) and is there a reason you don't use that as part of your 99.
Timetwister, and Compulsive Research. What has been the overall experiences that make the deeper digging worth more than cards in hand. In my experience, I need cards in hand in order to recover easier from the eventual wipe, and to hit my lands in a timely fashion.
I prefer to play threats than answers, which is why my list forgoes counterspells. I noticed that your lone counterspell is really a tutor more than a counterspell. Do you feel your list needs counterspells at all? Why or why not?
What are you feelings on the Ravnica bounce-lands? My list wants to play as few tap-lands as possible, but my list is nearly 50/50 with mana sources (land and artifact) and non-mana spells. They were very helpful before Sundering Titan got banned, as it allowed me to play Titan with no repercussion (my artifacts took care of mana issues from Blood moon or Back to Basics. I run 35 lands and 14-15 non-land mana sources in my list, but aside from rebuying Bojuka Bog, I'm not sure they are still warrented
Thank you very much for the kind words!
Glad to hear from a fellow competitive builder. I sometimes feel like while there are millions of people who play sharuum, few devote the hours and time to her that she deserves. Lets answer these questions:
1. I've used Roar and Open before, and one or the other. Roar always felt like too much-I always wanted room for lower mana, more immeadiate target options like Academy Ruins and Trading Post. While Roar is a best on it's own and a perfectly acceptable replacement or additional mass restoration affect, in my region the amount of total board wipes remains low (One Austere command cast during a game. One Shatterstorm cast. Maybe someone uses Oblivion stone too). Low CMC targeted options are also preferable to large stuff like Roar because you can tutor and use them right then. Plus, it's rare you really need to bring back more than one artifact anyways (in my case), because unless they give you a major set back (like destroying all of your mana rocks when you were going to combo off next turn), you can use smaller targeted options and still manage to screw the table over.
2. Between O-Stone, Engineered Explosives, Executioner's capsule and the sorcery speed options, I've never needed bridge to protect me. I have considered Tabernacle of Pendervale before, but it's high cost keeps me from picking it up. For what it would cost to grab one, I could almost finish foiling out the list. I can certainly see the utility use though, and could even fathom it going in over Engineered Explosives.
3. Yep, I'm aware. I've tested here before, and typically it doesn't last a single cycle around the table. This is entirely because I've used it and Null Rod to turn off the game for people rather than any other reason.
Yeah, people kind of hated me for that for a while.
4. I've been on both sides of this argument before, and tested burst-draw and filtering. I've reached the opposite conclusion-I'd rather pay a low price for selective filtering than draw tons of cards. Though I will admit there have been moments when I've been forced to shuffle other great options to the bottom of my library, which has sucked. Overall though, the positive experiences I've gotten with filtering have outweighed the value that raw draw could give.
5. Counters in combo lists in Commander are only useful when you know for a fact you can win. Sharuum has so many ways to recur necessary cards, both in my list and the colors themselves, that having counterspells in order to protect your avenues to victory is unnecessary. I think the list could win without any counterspells at all, but Muddle the Mixture works so well here that it warranted a spot. The only other counter I've used to success with combo lists is Pact of Negation, which has been superb in a UB Grimgrin storm list I've been brewing.
I seriously don't understand why people insist on using counters in Sharuum. It absolutely baffles me.
6. They're not only unneeded-they're now outdated options for mana fixing. They're the absolute last thing I recommend to people attempting to build CMDR lists now. Cute landfall tricks and bouncing Bojuka Bog aside, they're so outclassed by other options that I can't recommend them in any capacity.
I agree with your comments. I've yet to get a Latern for the deck, but I'm working on it.
I've been playing Sharuum for 5 years as well, and the list consistently teaches me new things. Every time I sit down to play with folks from a new region, or go to battle with my same playgroup I've had for years, I get to abuse a combo in a new way, or better yet, interactions I've never tested before.
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I just want to start out by complimenting you on this thread. I visited the 'which EDH general should I play' thread and got suggested to me everyone's favourite metal cat. I liked the deck you listed, and now she's my first ever general! (Minus a haphazard Wydwyn, the Biting Gale deck I have.)
I made the deck you have listed on the OP in Cockatrice, and played a few games. I've found that everyone and their sister targets me with removal and creatures. I try and deal with them, but my only defense seems to be gritting my teeth and taking it, Maze of Ith-ing the worst offender, or the occasional Salvaging Station-Executioner's Capsule pseudo-sweep. How do you usually deal with that kind of stuff?
Somewhat related to my above point is the lack of interaction I seem to be having with others. Most times, I'm just casting mana rocks, trying to dig for Scroll Rack, Artificer's Intuition, and Top so I can dig and filter more. Part of it is my avoidance of just going off with the Ordeal-Steel/Metamorph-Sharuum combo (which, I admit, is one of the only combos I can organize relatively quickly). The solution I came up with is shifting to a control-centric build, while still keeping as much combo-ness I can from this version. What kind of cards would you suggest for that? You're already discussing Ensnaring Bridge, and I'm making notes to add that to consideration as I type.
I apologize if I'm asking any unnecessary questions. I'm more used to tweaking standard and modern decks than building my own, but I'm working on my deck-building skills!
I just want to start out by complimenting you on this thread. I visited the 'which EDH general should I play' thread and got suggested to me everyone's favourite metal cat. I liked the deck you listed, and now she's my first ever general! (Minus a haphazard Wydwyn, the Biting Gale deck I have.)
I made the deck you have listed on the OP in Cockatrice, and played a few games. I've found that everyone and their sister targets me with removal and creatures. I try and deal with them, but my only defense seems to be gritting my teeth and taking it, Maze of Ith-ing the worst offender, or the occasional Salvaging Station-Executioner's Capsule pseudo-sweep. How do you usually deal with that kind of stuff?
Somewhat related to my above point is the lack of interaction I seem to be having with others. Most times, I'm just casting mana rocks, trying to dig for Scroll Rack, Artificer's Intuition, and Top so I can dig and filter more. Part of it is my avoidance of just going off with the Ordeal-Steel/Metamorph-Sharuum combo (which, I admit, is one of the only combos I can organize relatively quickly). The solution I came up with is shifting to a control-centric build, while still keeping as much combo-ness I can from this version. What kind of cards would you suggest for that? You're already discussing Ensnaring Bridge, and I'm making notes to add that to consideration as I type.
I apologize if I'm asking any unnecessary questions. I'm more used to tweaking standard and modern decks than building my own, but I'm working on my deck-building skills!
you just need to familiarize yourself with the deck. you need to get a lot of games in before you can pilot a list well. even then, your playing another persons brainchild, so you it may take even longer to understand lines of play and card choices. for example, i once tried to pick up jostin123's list and failed miserably at piloting it... even though i am a fairly competent player. metagames and play styles are also huge factors in deck composition and lines of play. cards that may be good for jack, may not be good for you. for example, over in some of the saffi threads... everyone swears by yosei, the morning star. i personally have never gotten it to work. on that same note, i swear by triskelion in that slot, yet nobody understands it.
all in all, it really does not pay to copy a list. just learn from the thread, get some ideas, and then start your own sharuum list from the ground, up. you will be better off in the long run that way.
I just want to start out by complimenting you on this thread. I visited the 'which EDH general should I play' thread and got suggested to me everyone's favourite metal cat. I liked the deck you listed, and now she's my first ever general! (Minus a haphazard Wydwyn, the Biting Gale deck I have.)
I made the deck you have listed on the OP in Cockatrice, and played a few games. I've found that everyone and their sister targets me with removal and creatures. I try and deal with them, but my only defense seems to be gritting my teeth and taking it, Maze of Ith-ing the worst offender, or the occasional Salvaging Station-Executioner's Capsule pseudo-sweep. How do you usually deal with that kind of stuff?
Somewhat related to my above point is the lack of interaction I seem to be having with others. Most times, I'm just casting mana rocks, trying to dig for Scroll Rack, Artificer's Intuition, and Top so I can dig and filter more. Part of it is my avoidance of just going off with the Ordeal-Steel/Metamorph-Sharuum combo (which, I admit, is one of the only combos I can organize relatively quickly). The solution I came up with is shifting to a control-centric build, while still keeping as much combo-ness I can from this version. What kind of cards would you suggest for that? You're already discussing Ensnaring Bridge, and I'm making notes to add that to consideration as I type.
I apologize if I'm asking any unnecessary questions. I'm more used to tweaking standard and modern decks than building my own, but I'm working on my deck-building skills!
Hello!
No questions are unnecessary, ever! Feel free to ask anything on your mind.
As for dealing with being targeted and/or attacked, I've found cockatrice's meta to have an unusually HIGH hatred of any top tier generals, specifically those of the combo variety. Usually just playing Sharuum is enough to get you hated off the table-mostly because people are dicks. I've never had this problem in real life, because the deck appears to have so many inconsequential plays. However, I usually attempt to set up a recursive executioner's capsule or Oblivion Stone, as those are usually sufficient for dealing with people who want you dead.
However, if you want to shift to a more control centric build, here's a few cards I can recommend right off the bat:
1. Meek Stone: Great at dealing with the most problematic creatures in the format. Easily tutored.
2. Ethersworn Adjudicator Might have spelled this wrong. He's a slightly slower way of dealing with creatures and enchantments. Not bad, but just not fast enough for Combo-focused builds. Should be acceptable for Control builds though.
3. Ensnaring Bridge: Others have had success with this card, but I've never felt a need to run it. Since you're on cockatrice, the next option is almost strictly superior...
4. The Tabernacle at Pendervale Might have gotten this name wrong as well. Tabernacle is one of the best aggro control cards ever printed, and since you're running so few creatures, it's "drawback" is negligble at best.
5. The Pillowfort: Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Collective Restraint are all possibilities. I personally have found them rarely useful save in decks focused around stacking these kinds of effects on top of one another. If you must run one, run Collective Restraint, as it gives the greatest penalty with the least amount of work.
6. Win faster: Horrible, god awful advice, but still true. Focus on comboing off as soon as possible. Remember, your life total is inconsequential if you're grabbing combo pieces and more without interruption. Consider you're likely playing with people you don't know, you don't really have to worry about offending anyone by speed winning.
7. Misc. Dickbaggery: There are a few tools available to you. Specifically, Mycosynth Lattice and Karn, Silver Golem allow for you to turn all your permanents into dudes-and blow up your opponents lands. Mana denial is an effective way of making your opponents mad, but also preventing them from having sufficient resources to cause you problems. Likewise, Armageddon and similar effects tend to be highly effective in the online metagame.
8.Ruse: Use the list as a ruse into finding another way to win. Temple Bell+Mind over Matter springs to mind. There are dozens of different combos in UWB-find one you can pull off with stealth, and leave your opponents confused and annoyed.
I hope this helps. The Cockatrice/MTGO meta tends to be fairly eclectic, and planning for it accordingly can be a real chore. That's the primary reason I prefer playing IRL rather than online. You just can't anticipate everything.
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Spine allows the destruction of all permanents rather than a single creature, has a sweet mini-combo with Phyrexia's Core, and will NEVER be a dead card. All of this for a single mana more makes me wonder why I haven't tested the card more in-depth before. Couple this with the fact it has pseudo self-recursion, and we've got a hell of a tool.
I can't think of any real reason Duplicant would be better, save for permanently dealing with problematic creatures that we wouldn't want going back to the graveyard. If I can manage to find room for both, I will. But for the immeadiate future (Meaning when I get back from GP Charleston), Spine will have it's place over Duplicant.
Thoughts? Critiques, comments? I'm all ears.
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Spine is also amazing with Trading Post. But then again, that card is incredible. Honestly seeing your and Bitteroot's Sharuum lists makes me debate throwing one together, but I think that every few months.
I'm only on 'Trice for the reason bederndern stated - to get used to piloting the deck. My issues were what I had gathered from the games I had played so far.
I plan on building the deck physically (I scoured my meager collection for a few of the cheaper cards and any of the pricier ones I may have had.) but I'll need to get out and get the rest. Until then, it's testing for me.
Those cards look like they may help, and I'll be looking out for others to add. Tabernacle would be preferable, but bridge is what I'll use, so I can still retain the affection of my wallet. If any more dickbaggery or ruses come to mind, feel free to give me a holler; I'm woefully unobservant to synergy...
@bederndern. If I could it that way, I would. But using another list as a base to get used to the general and the deck is the best way I've found to understanding it, and eventually branching off into my own deck. I agree that the little nuances take a while to understand, and longer to use them effectively. I'm just using JfNC's (or is it just Jack?) deck as a temporary measure to get a grasp of the deck in general.
I'll try it that way anyways. I may even learn something!
If any more advice or cards to test come to mind, I wouldn't mind hearing. Thanks again!
EDIT: Spine is probably better for removing more things, for all the reasons already stated. Even the exile clause from Duplicant is easily emulated, though having it packaged with the effect (and outright ignoring indestructibility, which is definitely a plus!) for one less mana makes Duplicant the better choice in a fight for a single slot, imho. It's cheaper, has a better removal effect, and comes with a body for blocks or beats, or simply an artifact to draw removal or to sacrifice to our reshape effects.
EDIT: Spine is probably better for removing more things, for all the reasons already stated. Even the exile clause from Duplicant is easily emulated, though having it packaged with the effect (and outright ignoring indestructibility, which is definitely a plus!) for one less mana makes Duplicant the better choice in a fight for a single slot, imho. It's cheaper, has a better removal effect, and comes with a body for blocks or beats, or simply an artifact to draw removal or to sacrifice to our reshape effects.
Having answers is nice.
Hrm. I'm wondering if we shouldn't just cut Mindslaver. It's not a bad card, and certainly has a home in most lists-but I'd like to keep duplicant if at all possible. Slaver adds nothing to the deck and takes a ton of mana to fire off, with Slaver-lock via our recovery suite costing even more.
I've cut Mindslaver before and didn't miss it. I think it's time to do that again.
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Actual Truth:
"You heard it here folks:
Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
Yeah. It's mostly a win-more card, to me. At 12 mana, you can fire off probably every combo in the deck.
Made my list. It's very rough, and only has one game played (Against Glissa the Traitor. Got Foundry-Sword combo out, then drew into Transmute Artifact and fetched Time Sieve for the win.) but here it is!
EDIT:
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Mindslaver
+1 Cephalid Coliseum +1 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Blue Sun's Zenith
My hand is usually full of stuff I want to cast, not have exiled. If it put into the grave, I could deal with it, but not exiling.
Mindslaver is a test to see if I ever run into a situation where I want to slaverlock someone.
Coliseum is for even more card draw, and another way to get combo pieces into the 'yard, and probe is... probe. 'free' peek and cantrip. I'm considering going an instant speed X-cost draw spell, like Sphinx's Revelation or Blue Sun's Zenith. They both draw cards, but one gives life and one gives re-usability. I'm leaning towards USZ at the moment. Being able to cast for 3-6 early game, then refuel even later for 8+ is pretty good. Went USZ instead of Probe.
Also, Ad Nauseam is beast. Cast it in every game I played today (only 2, but still counting! :D), netted at least 6 cards for only 6-10 life. Our average mana cost is so low we barely feel it, since most of our stuff is lands or 0-3 cost artifacts, and if you do hit something that is 5+, it's usually something you want.
Yeah. It's mostly a win-more card, to me. At 12 mana, you can fire off probably every combo in the deck.
Made my list. It's very rough, and only has one game played (Against Glissa the Traitor. Got Foundry-Sword combo out, then drew into Transmute Artifact and fetched Time Sieve for the win.) but here it is!
EDIT:
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Mindslaver
+1 Cephalid Coliseum +1 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Blue Sun's Zenith
My hand is usually full of stuff I want to cast, not have exiled. If it put into the grave, I could deal with it, but not exiling.
Mindslaver is a test to see if I ever run into a situation where I want to slaverlock someone.
Coliseum is for even more card draw, and another way to get combo pieces into the 'yard, and probe is... probe. 'free' peek and cantrip. I'm considering going an instant speed X-cost draw spell, like Sphinx's Revelation or Blue Sun's Zenith. They both draw cards, but one gives life and one gives re-usability. I'm leaning towards USZ at the moment. Being able to cast for 3-6 early game, then refuel even later for 8+ is pretty good. Went USZ instead of Probe.
Also, Ad Nauseam is beast. Cast it in every game I played today (only 2, but still counting! :D), netted at least 6 cards for only 6-10 life. Our average mana cost is so low we barely feel it, since most of our stuff is lands or 0-3 cost artifacts, and if you do hit something that is 5+, it's usually something you want.
A few things:
1. Why courier's capsule? Why not run Aether Spellbomb instead, which can interact with the board state, be salvaging-stationed/Artificer's Intuitioned, AND bounce your own guys/opponent's dudes in a pinch? Theoretically, it could pull off more work with less mana...and net you more cards. I bring this up because compared to other options, Courier's Capsule is sub-par. You're netting 2 cards for 4 mana. Deep Analysis, Compulsive Research would be arguably better.
2. Necrologia and Ad Naseum-I've tested both extensively. If you've got to run one, run Necrologia and cut AN-AN is more suited for decks that have an EXTREMELY low CMC curve-we're talking at least an 80% chance of turning something over with a CMC of 3 or less. As cool as AN is, you'll die to it more often than you'll win with it in Sharuum. Necrologia is much more suited here. I'd also consider Compulsive Research and friends here again.
3. How is Tainted Pact working out for you? I've seen some Sharuum players swear by it, but I've never felt the need for another tutor, especially one that exiles.
EDIT:
If you want some notation on AN, I just got done building a Grimgrin list that uses it to win:
Having answers is nice.
Hrm. I'm wondering if we shouldn't just cut Mindslaver. It's not a bad card, and certainly has a home in most lists-but I'd like to keep duplicant if at all possible. Slaver adds nothing to the deck and takes a ton of mana to fire off, with Slaver-lock via our recovery suite costing even more.
I've cut Mindslaver before and didn't miss it. I think it's time to do that again.
I understand the want to cut Mindlsaver. Mindslaver takes up a slot in my list, and is a what I define as a 90/10 card. 90% of the time, you don't need it, but the 10% of the time you do, it breaks games wide open. In my playgroup, there are often times that things need to be answered IMMEDIATELY and quite often, players don'thave the resource to deal with it right then and there. That's when Mindslaver becomes golden. I will admit, I haven't Slaver-locked a player in almost two years, never had to. But when you are facing down Karn the Redeemed or 100+ damage on board and no-one has outs, you can use the offender's deck to dismantle himself, and that's why that 10% keeps it in the deck. No card opens up as many uninterrupted lines of play as Mindslaver, and it allows you to do things you could never do otherwise (Take player A's turn and then target them with your FOF, draw-lock and opponent with their own Necropotence, tap out blockers for lethal alpha strikes, peek and burn tutors, etc). At the worst, it is an uber-expansive Fog. There is no card in Magic that mimics the activated effect, or the resulting game repercussions like Mindslaver, and for that, I keep it in the deck.
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I understand the want to cut Mindlsaver. Mindslaver takes up a slot in my list, and is a what I define as a 90/10 card. 90% of the time, you don't need it, but the 10% of the time you do, it breaks games wide open. In my playgroup, there are often times that things need to be answered IMMEDIATELY and quite often, players don'thave the resource to deal with it right then and there. That's when Mindslaver becomes golden. I will admit, I haven't Slaver-locked a player in almost two years, never had to. But when you are facing down Karn the Redeemed or 100+ damage on board and no-one has outs, you can use the offender's deck to dismantle himself, and that's why that 10% keeps it in the deck. No card opens up as many uninterrupted lines of play as Mindslaver, and it allows you to do things you could never do otherwise (Take player A's turn and then target them with your FOF, draw-lock and opponent with their own Necropotence, tap out blockers for lethal alpha strikes, peek and burn tutors, etc). At the worst, it is an uber-expansive Fog. There is no card in Magic that mimics the activated effect, or the resulting game repercussions like Mindslaver, and for that, I keep it in the deck.
See, that's precisely the reason I'm cutting it from my list though.
Mindslaver successfully fires off about ten percent of my plays as well. And when it does, it has the potential to completely turn games around-but there have been times when destroying a single permanent would have done the trick. A majority of the time I've casted Slaver, it's been in the form of bait-bait for counters, removal and random mass-artifact destruction. Players here have an abnormal fear of the card. Even if I can't crack it then, they assume I'm about to do something devious.
Which brings me to the other reason Slaver is getting cut from my list. It's incredibly politically offensive. I'm trying to keep the table reputation of the deck as low as possible. Spine accomplishes this while providing a more versatile problem-solving suite-people grossly underestimate it because it's played far less.
But we'll see how things go. I've cut slaver before and returned it-chances are more than likely it'll be back for all the reasons you just listed.
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Actual Truth:
"You heard it here folks:
Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
1. Why courier's capsule? Why not run Aether Spellbomb instead, which can interact with the board state, be salvaging-stationed/Artificer's Intuitioned, AND bounce your own guys/opponent's dudes in a pinch? Theoretically, it could pull off more work with less mana...and net you more cards. I bring this up because compared to other options, Courier's Capsule is sub-par. You're netting 2 cards for 4 mana. Deep Analysis, Compulsive Research would be arguably better.
2. Necrologia and Ad Naseum-I've tested both extensively. If you've got to run one, run Necrologia and cut AN-AN is more suited for decks that have an EXTREMELY low CMC curve-we're talking at least an 80% chance of turning something over with a CMC of 3 or less. As cool as AN is, you'll die to it more often than you'll win with it in Sharuum. Necrologia is much more suited here. I'd also consider Compulsive Research and friends here again.
3. How is Tainted Pact working out for you? I've seen some Sharuum players swear by it, but I've never felt the need for another tutor, especially one that exiles.
EDIT:
If you want some notation on AN, I just got done building a Grimgrin list that uses it to win:
Hrm. That's a good point on the spellbomb. I liked capsule because it was concentrated, but I see what you mean. I'll swap it for spellbomb.
Just after I edited, I lost two games from going too deep with AN. Necrologia is safer and more consistent. I'll be cutting AN, then. I just need to find something to replace it.
I've yet to cast Pact, and the more I look at it the less I like it. Another tutor isn't bad, but there are better ones out there. I'm going to cut it for either a nice artifact or some card draw, preferably reusable. Deep Analysis looks good.
So far, the changes are:
-1 Ad Nauseam
-1 Tainted Pact
-1 Courier's Capsule
See, that's precisely the reason I'm cutting it from my list though.
Mindslaver successfully fires off about ten percent of my plays as well. And when it does, it has the potential to completely turn games around-but there have been times when destroying a single permanent would have done the trick. A majority of the time I've casted Slaver, it's been in the form of bait-bait for counters, removal and random mass-artifact destruction. Players here have an abnormal fear of the card. Even if I can't crack it then, they assume I'm about to do something devious.
Which brings me to the other reason Slaver is getting cut from my list. It's incredibly politically offensive. I'm trying to keep the table reputation of the deck as low as possible. Spine accomplishes this while providing a more versatile problem-solving suite-people grossly underestimate it because it's played far less.
But we'll see how things go. I've cut slaver before and returned it-chances are more than likely it'll be back for all the reasons you just listed.
I personally have found space for both Slaver and a Spine effect. For months, it was spine itself, but I am testing Karn in its place, and I have to say that Karn Planeswalker is growing on me. I don't run the singleton vindicate that I see you run in your list, so if you're tight on space, I'd suggest starting there.
Spine is a good slot, but it doesn't strike me as great. It costs a lot, doesn't do anything while it sits in play. I find that is never a card you exclusively want to tap out for if you have other lines of play, nor do you want to burn a transmute artifact or a reshape to play it, and it requires its cumulative marginal synergy with other cards in the deck, if you have them (Karn, Silver Golem, Tezzeret Agent of Bolas, sacking to time sieve or transmute artifact, tricks with Transmuter, and/or copying with Mirrorworks, Tricks with Venser the Sojourner) for it to become better than just a Spine. Karn the Redeemed does the same thing, but almost better as he draws heat that Sharuum would normally be drawing in its place, and through the use of Thop Foundry and Tez Agent of Bolas, you have a means to protect him if necessary.
The real determinant between Spine and Karn really will be play preference and the individual list one is trying to slot Spine in. Like a tournament, this is one where the margins of catering to your play style gain you more percentage points than running the "optimal" choice and the requires deck changes to otherwise accommodate it would.
Lastly, I am a strong advocate for Aether a spellbomb in the deck. Bouncing a creature may not be all that great for some, but the tempo gained and using it with great timing (on a general in response to a Time Spiral or during a Jar turn) give it stregnth. It's best use for me has been
1) as an attack deterrent
2) to Keep Sharuum's casting cost down when games go long
3) To hit creatures with pro-colors and indestructibility, which is more than a rarity in these parts
Mainly for a body when we need it. Our lists don't have very many creatures. Aside from thopter tokens, they're all for their effects and if you can reliably pump out tokens with the combo, you're two or three turns from winning anyways.)
What would you put in it's place?
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http://cmdrshenanagins.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/sharuum-decklist/
My deck is creature-less except for the combo pieces that have to be creatures (Disciple, Metamorph, Sharuum) so the Tainted Aether is not just for the combo, but to help in controlling the opponent's boards. I would almost always cast this where with my other combo pieces I will hold them until I get everything in place and ready to go.
Quick aside, I took my list up against a friend's Arcum Dagsson list last night, 1v1. Out of three games I pulled off one win using Dire Undercurrents, Sharuum, and Phyrexian Metamorph. The other games he just got too much of a jump on me, and even though I have a ton of removal, his stuff gets indestructible status with the Darksteel Forge so early in the game that it is very hard to deal with. One game he locked me down with a stupid Mirror Gallery! So much for my combo there. It was still a lot of fun though. It was nice playing against someone who really doesn't care that I'm playing combo, as he was also playing combo.
Anyway, comment here or on my blog about my Sharuum list. I appreciate any and all feedback!
This does not actually work.
When Sharuum enters the battlefield, you have to put her ability on the stack (and the Aether's ability). This means you have to choose a target for it. THEN you sacrifice her, THEN you return the targeted thing to play.
The only reason Sculpting Steel works is because, whenever something happens, this is the order of events:
1) Check state-based effects (like lethal damage, legend rule, etc)
2) Stack triggers that trigger from that event (and from state-based effects)
3) active player gets priority.
So before you stack the trigger and choose your target, both Sharuum and the Steel are put into the yard due to SBE - legend rule. Then you stack the trigger, targeting Sharuum, then you resolve the trigger, returning her to play (returning the Steel, etc etc)
Currently Playing:
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EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Oh well... not part of the combo then, but still a good control card in a creature-less deck. I might take it out for something else though since this doesn't work.
I apologize severely for the lack of updates recently. About a month ago, I found out my grandmother had a tumor on one of her ovaries. I've been making trips to the hospital along with taking care of her house. Coupled with school work, I literally haven't gone anywhere except work, home, and the hospital within the last month and have gotten ZERO amount of testing done. I'm happy to say that Grandma is on the upswing-she was operated on, and has six months of chemo ahead of her, but things are finally starting to calm down.
With that said, a couple of things:
1. I've had several people send me private PMs about making a "budget" list for Sharuum. Since everyone's definition of "budget" seems up in the air, I'd like you guys to give me a guesstimate as to how much would be acceptable for such a list. I've heard everything from 200 dollars to below 100, so I'd appreciate some sort of median number to work with. The budget list will be included in the OP when completed, and naturally, will be discussed ad- nauseum here before it finally goes up.
2. On Chromatic Lattern: Personally, I'm still going to use Darksteel Ingot, but this is a more than suitable replacement effect. In fact, I'll likely make the switch at some point mysef, as since we're a combo list, we want to be able to use the exact colors of mana we need, when we need it.
3. I'm working on a Grimgrin Storm combo list as well.
I appreciate you guys taking the time to both bump this (pseudo) primer and keeping interest maintained over the last few weeks. I greatly appreciate it.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
No need to apologize, Jack. Happy to hear your grandmother is doing better; family first.
Still no real news on the decklist. I've gotten some testing in over the last month with Codex Shredder, with mixed results. I've been looking for something that allowed for easy recursion of things like tutors and such, but I've yet to be heavily impressed with shredder. 5 mana is a lot, despite our selection of mana rocks, and it's very cumbersome to work alongside Salvaging Station and Trading Post. The number of cards it could grab that you would wish to re-use are also extremely limited.
So, no new updates on the list. I'm sorry. That's the tragedy of playing artifact centric decks like this.
However, I do have some reasonably exciting news!
Chewie (@themanapool on twitter) and myself have been selected for Gunslinging at GP Charleston! It's a big honor, and we're extremely excited to have the opportunity. This means Sharuum will be making a splash in a BIG way very soon, so I should have some exciting stories to tell (at the least) within a few weeks. With that said, if any of you are planning on coming out to the event, please feel free to let me know. You have all been a huge help in making this "primer" (we'll use that word carefully so we don't piss off the mods) a reality, and It would be great to meet some of you in person.
Chewie and I will be arriving friday around lunchish to 6 PM, depending on traffic and the like. I don't know what exactly we'll be doing other than gunslinging-we're trying to come up with some cool events for the community, so I'll be sure to keep you guys updated.
I look forward to seeing some of you!
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
I just had some question for you with regards to your list and play, along with a few comments for some of the more recent posts. I'm sure most of the answers will come down to metagame calls, but I feel the need to ask them anyway.
A few years ago, after trying many different builds, I have discovered that the most effective list I've thrown together is a list that wins big by winning small. The cumulative advantage gained by using spellbombs, capsules, and recursive effects (the "salvaging station feedback engine" if you will) allows you to be able to further your goals and solidify your position without reprisal from the entire table. Yes, Sharuum is strong enough to goldfish combo style and win very quickly, but the most consistent wins come from the former method. It is nice to see that I am not alone in this sentiment.
Chromatic Lantern is awesome for this deck. I am hesitant to remove it for Darksteel Ingot because Ingot can protect Tez, AoB very well and has great synergy with Karn (indestructible 5/5 or 3/3 is no joke). It may get the cut for Coalition Relic, which I've used to great success. I do run Workshop, so it gains marginal extra utility there.
I cannot find room for Trading Post. It seems like it would be insane, and not I am being told that it is.
I run both Inkmoth Nexus and Tez agent of bolas, and neither have been in play at the same time during the combat step. The thought of dealing 5 infect for a single mana just made me salivate a little.
Overall, I try to have as many cards in the deck feed into each other. The reason I use the Bitter Ordeal kill over the other combo kills like Disciple of the Vault or Extractor Demon is that I can use effectively outside of the Sharuum engine. It can extract threats or answers from other decks just by playing your game (a capsule use and a fetch activation is often 4 cards) even without the infi mill. Time Sieve protects your permanents from exile, and buys you a turn to recover if they do try to mess with your board, and to a degree, so does Thopter Foundry. The deck has many feedback loops (cards that interact with other cards to create a system of synergies and not just a few 2-3 card combos). From the subtleties of Salvaging station interactions, to rewarding intricate knowledge of game rules and the stack, this type of build rewards high-level play, and you never really play the same game twice. Five years later, I am still finding new lines of play with this deck, and new interactions with my group from every newly-released set.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
its not that we (well, i) am intimidated. it is just usually the right play to bang on the sharuum player. who in their right mind would let a forgemaster rock on the sharuum players side of the table with enough artifacts to activate a minimum of 2 times?
My point exactly... Thank you Bederndern (our resident Saffi and Azusa player). During that game, for two turn cycles, I got 4 artifacts individually blown off the table (no sweeper, just targeted effects) by each opponent, 2 spells countered and my graveyard removed twice (the second time of which was pretty pointless) with no other player being targeted by anything between turns 4 and 5, and still came back to win it. You may not personally be intimidated (I don't think anyone who plays with us would be), but as a player there was obviously something that your deck (and the table) did not want to see hit play or that you felt I was showing (you're smarter than tutoring up a Stomphowler to just off mana rocks), hence the comment.
My deck ratio is approximately 50/50 artifacts to non-artifacts and 50/50 mana sources to non-mana sources, so having 6 random artifacts by turn 6 by access of a draw spell will almost always happen, even without foundry combo. If those artifacts happen to be some ramp and artifact lands, they'll still pull the trigger on the sweeper, even if I'm not showing anything. (Maybe there's a point achievement for killing me specifically... I don't know). Regardless, the forgemaster wasn't critical... Which is why I played it. If it rocks, it can push me ahead, if not, I'm not sweating it, it's not what I needed for the next few turns.
The deck is extremely resilient, and playing it is a labor of love (with an emphasis on labor). At a certain point everyone runs out of gas, and then you take over anyway. The deck has come back from having one permenant left on the table (a land), but that is exactly why I prefer the card draw spells over digging spells... To give you gas when everyone's tank is on E.
As illustrated above, some are more hostile than others, but that always depends on how they achieve their endgame. Either way, the deck is powerful, so I can't be mad when it draws that kind of fire. I take it as a compliment for my deck's tanacity and my tight play.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Thank you very much for the kind words!
Glad to hear from a fellow competitive builder. I sometimes feel like while there are millions of people who play sharuum, few devote the hours and time to her that she deserves. Lets answer these questions:
1. I've used Roar and Open before, and one or the other. Roar always felt like too much-I always wanted room for lower mana, more immeadiate target options like Academy Ruins and Trading Post. While Roar is a best on it's own and a perfectly acceptable replacement or additional mass restoration affect, in my region the amount of total board wipes remains low (One Austere command cast during a game. One Shatterstorm cast. Maybe someone uses Oblivion stone too). Low CMC targeted options are also preferable to large stuff like Roar because you can tutor and use them right then. Plus, it's rare you really need to bring back more than one artifact anyways (in my case), because unless they give you a major set back (like destroying all of your mana rocks when you were going to combo off next turn), you can use smaller targeted options and still manage to screw the table over.
2. Between O-Stone, Engineered Explosives, Executioner's capsule and the sorcery speed options, I've never needed bridge to protect me. I have considered Tabernacle of Pendervale before, but it's high cost keeps me from picking it up. For what it would cost to grab one, I could almost finish foiling out the list. I can certainly see the utility use though, and could even fathom it going in over Engineered Explosives.
3. Yep, I'm aware. I've tested here before, and typically it doesn't last a single cycle around the table. This is entirely because I've used it and Null Rod to turn off the game for people rather than any other reason.
Yeah, people kind of hated me for that for a while.
4. I've been on both sides of this argument before, and tested burst-draw and filtering. I've reached the opposite conclusion-I'd rather pay a low price for selective filtering than draw tons of cards. Though I will admit there have been moments when I've been forced to shuffle other great options to the bottom of my library, which has sucked. Overall though, the positive experiences I've gotten with filtering have outweighed the value that raw draw could give.
5. Counters in combo lists in Commander are only useful when you know for a fact you can win. Sharuum has so many ways to recur necessary cards, both in my list and the colors themselves, that having counterspells in order to protect your avenues to victory is unnecessary. I think the list could win without any counterspells at all, but Muddle the Mixture works so well here that it warranted a spot. The only other counter I've used to success with combo lists is Pact of Negation, which has been superb in a UB Grimgrin storm list I've been brewing.
I seriously don't understand why people insist on using counters in Sharuum. It absolutely baffles me.
6. They're not only unneeded-they're now outdated options for mana fixing. They're the absolute last thing I recommend to people attempting to build CMDR lists now. Cute landfall tricks and bouncing Bojuka Bog aside, they're so outclassed by other options that I can't recommend them in any capacity.
I agree with your comments. I've yet to get a Latern for the deck, but I'm working on it.
I've been playing Sharuum for 5 years as well, and the list consistently teaches me new things. Every time I sit down to play with folks from a new region, or go to battle with my same playgroup I've had for years, I get to abuse a combo in a new way, or better yet, interactions I've never tested before.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
I just want to start out by complimenting you on this thread. I visited the 'which EDH general should I play' thread and got suggested to me everyone's favourite metal cat. I liked the deck you listed, and now she's my first ever general! (Minus a haphazard Wydwyn, the Biting Gale deck I have.)
I made the deck you have listed on the OP in Cockatrice, and played a few games. I've found that everyone and their sister targets me with removal and creatures. I try and deal with them, but my only defense seems to be gritting my teeth and taking it, Maze of Ith-ing the worst offender, or the occasional Salvaging Station-Executioner's Capsule pseudo-sweep. How do you usually deal with that kind of stuff?
Somewhat related to my above point is the lack of interaction I seem to be having with others. Most times, I'm just casting mana rocks, trying to dig for Scroll Rack, Artificer's Intuition, and Top so I can dig and filter more. Part of it is my avoidance of just going off with the Ordeal-Steel/Metamorph-Sharuum combo (which, I admit, is one of the only combos I can organize relatively quickly). The solution I came up with is shifting to a control-centric build, while still keeping as much combo-ness I can from this version. What kind of cards would you suggest for that? You're already discussing Ensnaring Bridge, and I'm making notes to add that to consideration as I type.
I apologize if I'm asking any unnecessary questions. I'm more used to tweaking standard and modern decks than building my own, but I'm working on my deck-building skills!
BRG [T2] Jund Midrange GRB
W [Modern] Mono-White Control W
you just need to familiarize yourself with the deck. you need to get a lot of games in before you can pilot a list well. even then, your playing another persons brainchild, so you it may take even longer to understand lines of play and card choices. for example, i once tried to pick up jostin123's list and failed miserably at piloting it... even though i am a fairly competent player. metagames and play styles are also huge factors in deck composition and lines of play. cards that may be good for jack, may not be good for you. for example, over in some of the saffi threads... everyone swears by yosei, the morning star. i personally have never gotten it to work. on that same note, i swear by triskelion in that slot, yet nobody understands it.
all in all, it really does not pay to copy a list. just learn from the thread, get some ideas, and then start your own sharuum list from the ground, up. you will be better off in the long run that way.
Hello!
No questions are unnecessary, ever! Feel free to ask anything on your mind.
As for dealing with being targeted and/or attacked, I've found cockatrice's meta to have an unusually HIGH hatred of any top tier generals, specifically those of the combo variety. Usually just playing Sharuum is enough to get you hated off the table-mostly because people are dicks. I've never had this problem in real life, because the deck appears to have so many inconsequential plays. However, I usually attempt to set up a recursive executioner's capsule or Oblivion Stone, as those are usually sufficient for dealing with people who want you dead.
However, if you want to shift to a more control centric build, here's a few cards I can recommend right off the bat:
1. Meek Stone: Great at dealing with the most problematic creatures in the format. Easily tutored.
2. Ethersworn Adjudicator Might have spelled this wrong. He's a slightly slower way of dealing with creatures and enchantments. Not bad, but just not fast enough for Combo-focused builds. Should be acceptable for Control builds though.
3. Ensnaring Bridge: Others have had success with this card, but I've never felt a need to run it. Since you're on cockatrice, the next option is almost strictly superior...
4. The Tabernacle at Pendervale Might have gotten this name wrong as well. Tabernacle is one of the best aggro control cards ever printed, and since you're running so few creatures, it's "drawback" is negligble at best.
5. The Pillowfort: Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Collective Restraint are all possibilities. I personally have found them rarely useful save in decks focused around stacking these kinds of effects on top of one another. If you must run one, run Collective Restraint, as it gives the greatest penalty with the least amount of work.
6. Win faster: Horrible, god awful advice, but still true. Focus on comboing off as soon as possible. Remember, your life total is inconsequential if you're grabbing combo pieces and more without interruption. Consider you're likely playing with people you don't know, you don't really have to worry about offending anyone by speed winning.
7. Misc. Dickbaggery: There are a few tools available to you. Specifically, Mycosynth Lattice and Karn, Silver Golem allow for you to turn all your permanents into dudes-and blow up your opponents lands. Mana denial is an effective way of making your opponents mad, but also preventing them from having sufficient resources to cause you problems. Likewise, Armageddon and similar effects tend to be highly effective in the online metagame.
8.Ruse: Use the list as a ruse into finding another way to win. Temple Bell+Mind over Matter springs to mind. There are dozens of different combos in UWB-find one you can pull off with stealth, and leave your opponents confused and annoyed.
I hope this helps. The Cockatrice/MTGO meta tends to be fairly eclectic, and planning for it accordingly can be a real chore. That's the primary reason I prefer playing IRL rather than online. You just can't anticipate everything.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
I'm going to begin testing Spine of Ish Sah over Duplicant.
Spine allows the destruction of all permanents rather than a single creature, has a sweet mini-combo with Phyrexia's Core, and will NEVER be a dead card. All of this for a single mana more makes me wonder why I haven't tested the card more in-depth before. Couple this with the fact it has pseudo self-recursion, and we've got a hell of a tool.
I can't think of any real reason Duplicant would be better, save for permanently dealing with problematic creatures that we wouldn't want going back to the graveyard. If I can manage to find room for both, I will. But for the immeadiate future (Meaning when I get back from GP Charleston), Spine will have it's place over Duplicant.
Thoughts? Critiques, comments? I'm all ears.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
I'm only on 'Trice for the reason bederndern stated - to get used to piloting the deck. My issues were what I had gathered from the games I had played so far.
I plan on building the deck physically (I scoured my meager collection for a few of the cheaper cards and any of the pricier ones I may have had.) but I'll need to get out and get the rest. Until then, it's testing for me.
Those cards look like they may help, and I'll be looking out for others to add. Tabernacle would be preferable, but bridge is what I'll use, so I can still retain the affection of my wallet. If any more dickbaggery or ruses come to mind, feel free to give me a holler; I'm woefully unobservant to synergy...
@bederndern. If I could it that way, I would. But using another list as a base to get used to the general and the deck is the best way I've found to understanding it, and eventually branching off into my own deck. I agree that the little nuances take a while to understand, and longer to use them effectively. I'm just using JfNC's (or is it just Jack?) deck as a temporary measure to get a grasp of the deck in general.
I'll try it that way anyways. I may even learn something!
If any more advice or cards to test come to mind, I wouldn't mind hearing. Thanks again!
EDIT: Spine is probably better for removing more things, for all the reasons already stated. Even the exile clause from Duplicant is easily emulated, though having it packaged with the effect (and outright ignoring indestructibility, which is definitely a plus!) for one less mana makes Duplicant the better choice in a fight for a single slot, imho. It's cheaper, has a better removal effect, and comes with a body for blocks or beats, or simply an artifact to draw removal or to sacrifice to our reshape effects.
BRG [T2] Jund Midrange GRB
W [Modern] Mono-White Control W
Having answers is nice.
Hrm. I'm wondering if we shouldn't just cut Mindslaver. It's not a bad card, and certainly has a home in most lists-but I'd like to keep duplicant if at all possible. Slaver adds nothing to the deck and takes a ton of mana to fire off, with Slaver-lock via our recovery suite costing even more.
I've cut Mindslaver before and didn't miss it. I think it's time to do that again.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
Made my list. It's very rough, and only has one game played (Against Glissa the Traitor. Got Foundry-Sword combo out, then drew into Transmute Artifact and fetched Time Sieve for the win.) but here it is!
1 Sharuum the Hegemon
Artifacts:
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Temple Bell
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Grim Monolith
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scroll Rack
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Dispeller's Capsule
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Salvaging Station
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Trading Post
1 Time Sieve
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Expedition Map
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mindslaver
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Lotus Bloom
1 Lotus Petal
1 Courier's Capsule
1 Meekstone
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Magister Sphinx
1 Thopter Assembly
Enchantments:
1 Rhystic Study
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Artificer's Intuition
Planeswalkers:
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Instants:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Intuition
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Necrologia
1 Tainted Pact
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Impulse
Sorceries:
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Windfall
1 Reshape
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Austere Command
1 Vindicate
1 Academy Ruins
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
1 Maze of Ith
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Command Tower
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Buried Ruin
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Reliquary Tower
How's it look?
EDIT:
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Mindslaver
+1 Cephalid Coliseum
+1 Gitaxian Probe+1 Blue Sun's Zenith
My hand is usually full of stuff I want to cast, not have exiled. If it put into the grave, I could deal with it, but not exiling.
Mindslaver is a test to see if I ever run into a situation where I want to slaverlock someone.
Coliseum is for even more card draw, and another way to get combo pieces into the 'yard, and probe is... probe. 'free' peek and cantrip.
I'm considering going an instant speed X-cost draw spell, like Sphinx's Revelation or Blue Sun's Zenith. They both draw cards, but one gives life and one gives re-usability. I'm leaning towards USZ at the moment. Being able to cast for 3-6 early game, then refuel even later for 8+ is pretty good.Went USZ instead of Probe.Also, Ad Nauseam is beast. Cast it in every game I played today (only 2, but still counting! :D), netted at least 6 cards for only 6-10 life. Our average mana cost is so low we barely feel it, since most of our stuff is lands or 0-3 cost artifacts, and if you do hit something that is 5+, it's usually something you want.
BRG [T2] Jund Midrange GRB
W [Modern] Mono-White Control W
A few things:
1. Why courier's capsule? Why not run Aether Spellbomb instead, which can interact with the board state, be salvaging-stationed/Artificer's Intuitioned, AND bounce your own guys/opponent's dudes in a pinch? Theoretically, it could pull off more work with less mana...and net you more cards. I bring this up because compared to other options, Courier's Capsule is sub-par. You're netting 2 cards for 4 mana. Deep Analysis, Compulsive Research would be arguably better.
2. Necrologia and Ad Naseum-I've tested both extensively. If you've got to run one, run Necrologia and cut AN-AN is more suited for decks that have an EXTREMELY low CMC curve-we're talking at least an 80% chance of turning something over with a CMC of 3 or less. As cool as AN is, you'll die to it more often than you'll win with it in Sharuum. Necrologia is much more suited here. I'd also consider Compulsive Research and friends here again.
3. How is Tainted Pact working out for you? I've seen some Sharuum players swear by it, but I've never felt the need for another tutor, especially one that exiles.
EDIT:
If you want some notation on AN, I just got done building a Grimgrin list that uses it to win:
Part One:
http://jackfromnc.tumblr.com/post/34356086010/the-glass-cannon-part-one
Part Two:
http://jackfromnc.tumblr.com/post/34764943393/the-glass-cannon-part-two
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
I understand the want to cut Mindlsaver. Mindslaver takes up a slot in my list, and is a what I define as a 90/10 card. 90% of the time, you don't need it, but the 10% of the time you do, it breaks games wide open. In my playgroup, there are often times that things need to be answered IMMEDIATELY and quite often, players don'thave the resource to deal with it right then and there. That's when Mindslaver becomes golden. I will admit, I haven't Slaver-locked a player in almost two years, never had to. But when you are facing down Karn the Redeemed or 100+ damage on board and no-one has outs, you can use the offender's deck to dismantle himself, and that's why that 10% keeps it in the deck. No card opens up as many uninterrupted lines of play as Mindslaver, and it allows you to do things you could never do otherwise (Take player A's turn and then target them with your FOF, draw-lock and opponent with their own Necropotence, tap out blockers for lethal alpha strikes, peek and burn tutors, etc). At the worst, it is an uber-expansive Fog. There is no card in Magic that mimics the activated effect, or the resulting game repercussions like Mindslaver, and for that, I keep it in the deck.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
See, that's precisely the reason I'm cutting it from my list though.
Mindslaver successfully fires off about ten percent of my plays as well. And when it does, it has the potential to completely turn games around-but there have been times when destroying a single permanent would have done the trick. A majority of the time I've casted Slaver, it's been in the form of bait-bait for counters, removal and random mass-artifact destruction. Players here have an abnormal fear of the card. Even if I can't crack it then, they assume I'm about to do something devious.
Which brings me to the other reason Slaver is getting cut from my list. It's incredibly politically offensive. I'm trying to keep the table reputation of the deck as low as possible. Spine accomplishes this while providing a more versatile problem-solving suite-people grossly underestimate it because it's played far less.
But we'll see how things go. I've cut slaver before and returned it-chances are more than likely it'll be back for all the reasons you just listed.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
Hrm. That's a good point on the spellbomb. I liked capsule because it was concentrated, but I see what you mean. I'll swap it for spellbomb.
Just after I edited, I lost two games from going too deep with AN. Necrologia is safer and more consistent. I'll be cutting AN, then. I just need to find something to replace it.
I've yet to cast Pact, and the more I look at it the less I like it. Another tutor isn't bad, but there are better ones out there. I'm going to cut it for either a nice artifact or some card draw, preferably reusable. Deep Analysis looks good.
So far, the changes are:
-1 Ad Nauseam
-1 Tainted Pact
-1 Courier's Capsule
+1 Aether Spellbomb
+1 Deep Analysis
+1 Hanna's Custody
EDIT: Decided on Hanna's custody. It stops random targeted artifact removal, and protects the combo pieces.
BRG [T2] Jund Midrange GRB
W [Modern] Mono-White Control W
I personally have found space for both Slaver and a Spine effect. For months, it was spine itself, but I am testing Karn in its place, and I have to say that Karn Planeswalker is growing on me. I don't run the singleton vindicate that I see you run in your list, so if you're tight on space, I'd suggest starting there.
Spine is a good slot, but it doesn't strike me as great. It costs a lot, doesn't do anything while it sits in play. I find that is never a card you exclusively want to tap out for if you have other lines of play, nor do you want to burn a transmute artifact or a reshape to play it, and it requires its cumulative marginal synergy with other cards in the deck, if you have them (Karn, Silver Golem, Tezzeret Agent of Bolas, sacking to time sieve or transmute artifact, tricks with Transmuter, and/or copying with Mirrorworks, Tricks with Venser the Sojourner) for it to become better than just a Spine. Karn the Redeemed does the same thing, but almost better as he draws heat that Sharuum would normally be drawing in its place, and through the use of Thop Foundry and Tez Agent of Bolas, you have a means to protect him if necessary.
The real determinant between Spine and Karn really will be play preference and the individual list one is trying to slot Spine in. Like a tournament, this is one where the margins of catering to your play style gain you more percentage points than running the "optimal" choice and the requires deck changes to otherwise accommodate it would.
Lastly, I am a strong advocate for Aether a spellbomb in the deck. Bouncing a creature may not be all that great for some, but the tempo gained and using it with great timing (on a general in response to a Time Spiral or during a Jar turn) give it stregnth. It's best use for me has been
1) as an attack deterrent
2) to Keep Sharuum's casting cost down when games go long
3) To hit creatures with pro-colors and indestructibility, which is more than a rarity in these parts
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
What would you put in it's place?
BRG [T2] Jund Midrange GRB
W [Modern] Mono-White Control W