I've been really tempted to build a Sharuum deck and was wondering if this is a good base to base my deck of off even though it is an old post?
On page 42 of this topic you may find several decklists of different strategies. But they are outdated.
I also compiled the most useful information about the Engine List: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/primer-edh-sharuum-engine-jostin-version
Of course this list is completely outdated, but the information provided will help you understand the strategies and mechanics behind the Engine List.
As others have said it before me: Engine Sharuum isn't for competitive EDH (cEDH), and is a rather expensive deck for other meta.
Even myself I abandoned Sharuum in favor of Breya.
So I do have a question for you guys. I've been playing this deck for about four month's now, with some minor modification and had great results, but the pods at where I play are not too too competitive for the most part. There are some that run the new storm combo etc. I've searched online for a couple of hours now without any real resolution as to what are the current strongest decks. I have a semi competitive deck I play with already,as well as this one that dropped to tier 2, but I'm looking to take one to GP's and win or at least be on par, not to say this one is not, but it's falling behind. I've seen the tier lists as updated about a week ago, but I don't really have a direction to go in, always conflicting information. Money is not really an issue and I'm not looking for a budget deck, I can play all styles, I'm just looking for a straightforward answer of, "These are the strongest decks being run in the meta at the moment". And I know that it's dependent on your meta so I'll state purely competitive, win as quickly and consistently as possible. I won't be playing this deck with friends. I also know there usually is not "one" deck. If I could get some feedback it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.
So I do have a question for you guys. I've been playing this deck for about four month's now, with some minor modification and had great results, but the pods at where I play are not too too competitive for the most part. There are some that run the new storm combo etc. I've searched online for a couple of hours now without any real resolution as to what are the current strongest decks. I have a semi competitive deck I play with already,as well as this one that dropped to tier 2, but I'm looking to take one to GP's and win or at least be on par, not to say this one is not, but it's falling behind. I've seen the tier lists as updated about a week ago, but I don't really have a direction to go in, always conflicting information. Money is not really an issue and I'm not looking for a budget deck, I can play all styles, I'm just looking for a straightforward answer of, "These are the strongest decks being run in the meta at the moment". And I know that it's dependent on your meta so I'll state purely competitive, win as quickly and consistently as possible. I won't be playing this deck with friends. I also know there usually is not "one" deck. If I could get some feedback it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.
The Competitive EDH subreddit is currently the best avenue for discussion of competitive decks and strategies. The community there is toxic, but the lists are usually good.
I'd highly disagree that a toxic community is the best avenue for any sort of discussion.
The Competitive EDH subreddit is currently the best avenue for discussion of competitive decks and strategies. The community there is toxic, but the lists are usually good.
Well yes and no, the regular folks in cEDH(who I am one of) are not toxic, the problem with reddit in general is there are a lot of visitors who like to troll and derail posts. The good thing about the cEDH reddit is, it is moderated so you don't get things like someone necro threading posts from 2010 on irrelevant decks, and I see that here all the time.
Wow bro, it sounds like you have had a rough time on reddit, sorry for that, so far I have only found it helpful, but for the record when I see my bros from MTGS, I only have upvotes and love for you.
Here are some ideas on what edges Sharuum does have. Even if you disagree with my ideas on what Sharuum's edges are, or how to exploit them, I hope some of the ideas on how to think about it will allow you to create a stronger deck that can answer the question, "Why not play Doomsday?"
I've been building a lot. I'm still hopeful for Whir of Invention, but it's probably the same story with other cards that you guys had a better radar on.
I digress. I've been thinking a lot about what edges Sharuum has over the common tier 1 decks. The answers used to be recursion and repeatable effects to grind out a game, but as we've discussed to death that doesn't work anymore. I think that even if Sharuum doesn't have what it takes to currently be tier 1, it has advantages that make it worth not giving up on.
I think it is a good idea to take a lot of the ideas from stronger decks - use Ad Nauseam, drop the mana curve, and run a counterspell suite. But what parts of Sharuum should we keep? I believe there are at least 3 interesting advantages that make Sharuum worth exploring:
1. Colorless mana. As a deck that can focus on artifacts, Sharuum can use colorless mana in ways that other decks can't. Mishra's Workshop, for example, is one of the most powerful lands of all time, but as far as I know no other deck can run it. Very few decks can run Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, and while you can also argue that the card shouldn't be in Sharuum, I think it's worth testing him even in a lean build. Other decks have a heavy reliance on colored permanents to support their glass-cannon cards (Sylvan Library, Necropotence, Mystic Remora, Deathrite Shaman), and Ugin can expose those glass cannon decks for what they are, if he resolves early enough.
1a. Artifact mana. Sure, many top tier decks use about 9-12 mana rocks just like Sharuum, but the most powerful ones create only colorless mana (Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Sol Ring). Without lands, Sharuum's mana base is, in this way at least, inherently stronger than other manabases. It's obviously weaker to Null Rod and Stony Silence, but it's an edge nonetheless.
2. Combo pieces that can play the value game. Basalt Monolith, Rings of Brighthearth, and Sensei's Divining Top are all decent to excellent cards in their own right, and together they win the game on the spot. Sharuum is able to pull this combo off better than any other deck, again, because of its ability to use colorless mana. You can definitely argue that this particular combo is worse than just Doomsday-ing, but I think it is not clear-cut when you consider that drawing Rings is a whole lot better than drawing Laboratory Maniac, especially if your game plan can make the game slower and more draw-dependent.
3. Combo pieces that are artifacts. Artifacts are much easier to tutor than instants, sorceries, and planeswalkers, and tutors that put them directly onto the battlefield save us from having to spend tempo to actually cast them.
So, what actual deckbuilding changes do these 3 considerations bring us to? I believe this way of looking at the deck gives us a different way to think about sweepers.
In this thread we played around with a land destruction plan, but shook our heads and went, "no, there aren't enough LD effects." I'm playing with the idea that instead of thinking of a critical mass of LD, we can try to think of the deck as having a critical mass of sweeping value/tempo disruption effects. What this means is that All is Dust and Cyclonic Rift can be thought of in the same vein as Armageddon. Sharuum's colorlessness and strength of artifact mana could make All is Dust, Ugin, and Armageddon uniquely asymmetrical.
Now, there are holes in this idea. The sweepers I mentioned are very expensive. Sweepers don't get you ahead like the value cards they destroy. The idea isn't foolproof, but I do believe they are edges that other decks don't have like Sharuum does. I do believe that, at the very least, this is a new lens with which to view cards in new expansions.
Something to note about all this - I don't think this edge of sweepers needs to be a huge number of cards. 8 fast combo cards (2 Sculpting Steel, 2 Bitter Ordeal effects, 1 grave hate card, Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek/Time Sieve), 33 lands, 11 artifact mana sources, ~12 of the best tutors and selection, and ~10 broken disruption cards already adds up to 74 cards. That's only ~25 cards to actually experiment with, so having 5 or so sweepers is a significant portion of the non-base part of the deck. Note that fast combo decks can run 7 counterspells and still feel like they have a LOT of countermagic. If the sweepers are viable, then we don't need too many new sweepers printed to make it a real theme.
TL;DR - Sharuum might not be tier 1, but here are some edges that make playing with her interesting and give her potential with new sets. I believe with the same tools, Sharuum can combo on turn 3 like the best of them, but could also play certain sweepers to keep other decks honest - and slower than her. Lastly, the "base" of powerful cards in Esper EDH is pretty darn big in the first place, so you don't need to change THAT many cards to give a deck a very different feel.
This is a current list of what I have. The idea is to be able to reasonably consistently goldfish a turn 3 or 4, counter and Swords to Plowshares things faster than you, sweep to drastically alter the game, destroy hate cards, and be difficult to Jester's Cap. I've sacrificed the ability to quickly win without going infinite (Magister Sphinx) for the land disruption/Crucible of Worlds plan.
Want List (should put in): Flusterstorm, Mana Drain, Ravages of War, Mishra's Workshop, Timetwister. I think I play rarely enough to wait for Eternal Masters 2 on the first three, and the latter two...I might never play with. Obviously they're bonkers. You could run the original duals and more fetchlands, but honestly I think at 33 lands we have enough rainbow lands printed to make the money investment irrelevant.
Regardless, this is a little off-topic for a Sharuum discussion thread, so I think we should return to the main reason we're here: Sharuum. Has anyone experimented with Pull from Eternity? I've been considering putting Sharuum back together and Pull has been heavily on my radar. From Delve to Tainted Pact to opposing Bitter Ordeal effects, we have a lot of ways to functionally hide a combo piece, then drop it back into the yard for a surprise win.
Welgo was running it in his list last I checked.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
That I do. I keep calling it a meta card, but I guess with our weakness to Gy hate through combo it's just auto-include. The one thing I've been doing I never thought of was a late game (so t5-t7) trying to combo through a Gy exile effect, grabbing back the piece and just trying it again. I also appreciate the fact I feel like I have a bit more comfort in letting a clone hit the yard from an early loot effect that was meant just to dig. I hated putting the piece in the yard until I needed to, and having it be a pseudo clone that costs W in that situation is what really keeps it in the deck for me. Looking back on the long, long, history I have with Sharuum I know that's been a recurring issue that extends or loses me games. This and Transmute Artifact have justified me playing without Entomb for a bit. I'm torn on it because all it really does now is feed a clone into the yard, where as something like this has some more defense and versatility.
On an unrelated but Sharuum centric note, my devotion to her took over my Breya deck. It's obviously not nearly as efficent as just running her, but the Torrential Gearhulk combo is actually easier with her in the 99 and red gives us some fun tools to work towards the standard combo. I don't mean to try and convince anyone to run it, but it's been enjoyable to win with Sharuum outside of a Sharuum deck.
Yeah. I think the idea is a nonbo with AN. The goal is to end up with everything if the yard if you go hard like that. The line of play is from the 4 horseman list from reddit. Unburial Rites grabs Sharuum and the combo takes place normally. This way is actually cheap since I pay 3W rather than paying for Sharuum. It just spawned after I gave up on Gearhulk combo for my own list. It's kind of my way to keep playing Sharuum in those "tabletop competetive" metas, where my friends are trying to be competitive, but their decks are in the process or trying something new. I kind of look at it like I always have my midrange creature in hand and Sharuum hidden away.
Edit: Oh, and all the sheninigans of playing a midrange game and getting out Sharuum with the purpose of comboing and having access to all those crazy red cards.
I switched my devotion to Breya too. Red brings so much interesting things and comboing with her is more easy and safe. But I kept Sharuum in the 99 because I miss her. I play a midrange combo strategy (still 0 counterpsells) with a salvaging station engine package as a support. My main combo is bomberman.
My meta isn't that much competitive so I can manage to win after a long delay. I prefer interactions over fast combo.
Yeah, that's what mine is shaping up to be. Big fan of alhammarret's archive and a big pile of eggs along with station and Second Sunrise and co. Eggs got a few presents in AR I'm excited to try out
Why would Mirage Mirror not be a sweet card? Does it not combo with Sharuum alongside being a decent utility card?
Along with some of the other posters, I have moved to Breya. My Breya list focuses on Doomsday, Ad Naus, and George to either win with Lab Man or with a large number of Breya activations. I played around with a package of Aetherflux Reservoir, Shimmer Myr, and cost reducers to make bunches of life and pop opponents for 50, but it was ultimately too cute.
* Please note: The base might be primed for an overhaul. I'm using the existing mana base because it is proven, but the resulting changes may allow us to further refine the mana base for optimization, allowing us to conserve more slots currently dedicated to mana rocks or even shave on lands. More testing will be required to determine whether this is the case.
If anyone wants my bio update, here it is. I suspect most can skip this section, but it's here for consistency.
I am a primarily a Vintage Player, and began playing the game in 1994. I along with Teammate Ici Li created the Mono-Red Bazaar Stax list we called MRC (Mono Red Control) that was later dubbed "Bazaar Stax" and "The Truth". The deck dominated the Vintage metagame between 2008 and 2011. Deck lists and reports can be found on various sites across the internet (If anyone would like to see them for reference, I can edit them in, but for right now, the discussion is about Sharuum and not Stax, and it is currently 1am in the morning). I started as a blue control / combo pilot that began learning to play Shops in 2003, and have posted solid finishes in quite a few tournaments. By 2009, my proficiency with playing Shops became renouned in the Northeast. After the closing of Neutral Ground in NYC, I organized Vintage tournaments for almost 1 1/2 years, before turning my focus to family.
After having taken a break from Vintage to raise a family, I got back into the format in 2015, top 8'ing my first local event back from a 5 year hiatus with an old list from 2011, a 40 person 1k event. I top 8'ed many more local events, and came in 46th place at my very first Vintage World Championship in 2016 - the highest placing Goblin Welder list at the tournament. Since then, I've continued to place well at events on the rare occasions I can attend them, having a very strong run with colorless prison until the Thorn of Amethyst restriction, before finally giving in to playing Ravager Shops. My last strong finish being 10th place at the 96 player Eternal Extravaganze 4 event. I currently play Ravager Shops and Ritual Storm in Vintage. My other current EDH decks consist of Lord Windgrace (prison), Saffi Eriksdotter (creature Sharuum), and Zedruu, the Greathearted (non-prison, non-engine deck). As an aside, I split the finals of a M19 store championship during an out of state visit to my parents, not having drafted a standard set for at least a year before that event.
Deck Building Methods and Philosophy updates
My build has always been centered around being the most efficient possible, while still maintaining an air of decency at EDH games . I get much less play-time than I used to. With stat said, currently play with 3 different groups (two of which play at a very high level of technical play). My 20 years of experience with playing various combo, toolbox, and artifact-based decks have been vital in creating and updating my lists. For the last 3-4 years, there have been so many strong Commander printings, the format feels to have redistributed power to other strategies that previously had not had their current lever of strength and consistency. Disjointed Sharuum printings have have kept me from playing and updating the deck as often and rigorously as I used to. Major props to Berderndern for motivating me to solve these issues
History has shown that the optimal ratio of artifacts to non-artifacts for tuned engie-based Sharuum builds rests at the 50/50 mark. This offers the best cross-section for this style of deck: maximal value within and across the deck's various engines while limiting the amount of chaff and vulnerability that comes with relying on artifacts. This version currently rests at 48 artifacts/52 non-artifacts. This becomes key to consistency as it dramatically decreased colored spell mana count and increases colorless spell mana count in the deck, which in turn increases the quality and consistency of your lines of play and virtually lowers your curve ( You worry less about hitting the right colors of mana, and focus more on hitting the right amount of mana... and this deck generates a metric f***-ton of mana).
Play threats over answers. My playgroup has an established meta-game, but being part of two almost-separate playgroups, that allows my deck the most flexibility to be able to play my game, regardless of whoever I sit with at my table. This also allows me to play blow-for-blow with whichever opponent decides that the turn 2-5 masturbation-into-early-combo-kill is fun. Being able to disrupt this kind of player earn me more allies and accolades from the table than any other gesture of good will. With the prevalence of nuclear-option cards like Cyclonic Rift, players cannot realistically expect to win games by stilling back and playing reactively. In my experience, the best way to beat cards like this is to force them out in such a way that your opponent isn't using them to win the game, he or she is using it to keep from losing. It also allows me to play my game under the next philosophy...
Bluff like poker, but play like chess. Playing answers over threats allows me to play with knife-like precision, but at the expense of making play mistakes and sub-optimal play more costly, as with Chess. I always want to develop my game. Most commander games are played like tennis. A player drops a threat, and another player plays and answer, then someone answers that play, then the next play... and the game looks like four rackets volleying for position. When you have an abundance of threats, you not only can match or overshadow your opponent's threat, but now they have to answer yours, often at their own expense (whether it be permanents or tempo). And, every time they only play an answer without a follow up, they fall behind. Previous examples in this thread of why I chose to play Karn Liberated over Spine of Ish-Shah illustrates this perfectly. Every play you make should both extend your game plan and balance / leverage the current board or game state. That ensures that opponents have to overextend to reset the board or press ahead. That generates natural card advantage over the course of the game, which, when playing a recursive general such as Sharuum, should naturally net you enough cards and advantage to press ahead.
Card engines generate more card value than individually powerful cards. This is intuitive to anyone who plays combo decks. Most people will misconstrue this to mean playing combos both large and small, and that is wrong. If anyone here has taken Environmental Science courses, they would understand the concept of a feedback loop. I feedback loop occurs when multiple scenarios work in conjunction with each other to create a perpetual system, thus completing the loop (Example: It rains, rain water from the ground evaporates, evaporated water creates clouds, and saturated clouds rain). This phenomenon when applied to similarly behaving synergies in Magic would be your combo. When multiple feedback loops work together in unison, they create an environment. Card engines working together function as an environment, and so should a Sharuum deck. Thopter Foundry works across a ridiculous number of feedback loops. Phyrexian Core works with far fewer. Both will save your general from exile, but you know intuitively which one is stronger. Lastly, when environments are balanced, their feedback loops create a system of checks and balances to maintain their equilibrium. A balanced deck should function the same way
Each card in a Sharuum deck should have multiple uses, and most preferably, should have purpose and work across multiple feedback loops. Using the breakdown of my list above, let's say I want to prevent an artifact of mine from being exiled with a Return to Dust. What options do I have?
The same way that a tutors, draw spells, and card filtering in a combo deck create a system of feedback loops within a respectable curve to siphon a threshold of Dark rituals, kill conditions, and lethal storm count for a tendrils kill; each card in your deck should feed itself into as many systems as possible, at as many points in the game as possible (taking your curve into account), to create a machine that will consistently churn synergies to carry you into a win. The easier a combo deck accomplishes this, the more balanced the deck is. If you find that this same deck is very draw dependent, or that it is not "going off" consistently when going through the motions, the deck is not balanced and needs more tinkering.
Recent Changes
With the insane amount of power-creep experienced over the last few years, games swings are the biggest they have ever been this format. In addition, there have been many commanders that were printed to be laser-focused and pre-packaged one-card engines. Combine this together with an increase in efficient hate and you get an environment where waiting to sculpt the entire can, and often will, earn you a game loss. The removal and protection packages needed to evolve to keep up . Many changes have also created new, more explosive play patterns for the deck to abuse, to take advantage of the bigger swings more commonly found in the format across a larger number of decks and strategies.
Smothering Tithe - This card is just insane... and that's if it's used fairly. We won't, and it's all explained here:
Smothering Tithe provides the deck with a ton of interactions, ranging from very solid to ban-worthy. The following is an in-depth analysis on Smothering Tithe's interactions and reason for inclusion. In order to understand the interactions, one must have a good grasp of the comprehensive rules, in order to know when and how it would be beneficial to use these applications. I will break down the interactions with card by card type and/or engine where applicable.
[spoiler=The Power of Smothering Tithe]
We all know Smothering Tithe forces your opponents to either abandon their board development or allow you to gain mana and permanents for free, which is why it ranks so high among Commander players. While most decks mainly use Treasure to produce extra mana, our engine-based deck is uniquely positioned to extract much more value from this card. Remember that Treasure tokens are artifacts, and so every aspect of their existence (token creation to trigger artifact ETB effects, residual mana, the 0 CMC, their use can force death triggers, free artifact permanents to pay for effect costs ) plug into multiple engines and conversions that are highly relevant to the deck.
I was very skeptical in incorporating a non-artfiact card to work as an engine in the deck, despite it's power being a known quantity. What makes Smothering Tithe uniquely positioned, and the reason I decided to include it as the only non-artifact engine piece in the deck, is because can convert select non-artifact resources (instants, sorceries, turn based effects, opposing value triggers, etc.) into mana and artifact permanents for engine fuel and resource conversion.
Smothering sets up a trigger whenever an opponent draws any card, and it triggers for each card drawn. If an opponent is instructed to draw multiple cards, that player draws all of them before deciding how many times to pay for Smothering Tithe’s triggered ability.
Smothering Tithe makes Treasure tokens that generate mana, and so it follows all game rules governing tokens and mana use.
110.5. Some effects put tokens onto the battlefield. A token is a marker used to represent any permanent that isn’t represented by a card.
110.5a. A token is both owned and controlled by the player under whose control it entered the battlefield.
110.5b The spell or ability that creates a token may define the values of any number of characteristics for the token. This becomes the token’s “text.” The characteristic values defined this way are functionally equivalent to the characteristic values that are printed on a card; for example, they define the token’s copiable values. A token doesn’t have any characteristics not defined by the spell or ability that created it. The resulting token has no mana cost, supertype, rules text, or abilities.
110.5c. A spell or ability that creates a creature token sets both its name and its creature type. If the spell or ability doesn’t specify the name of the creature token, its name is the same as its creature type(s). A “Goblin Scout creature token,” for example, is named “Goblin Scout” and has the creature subtypes Goblin and Scout. Once a token is on the battlefield, changing its name doesn’t change its creature type, and vice versa.
110.5d. If a spell or ability would create a token, but an effect states that a permanent with one or more of that token’s characteristics can’t enter the battlefield, the token is not created.
110.5e. A token is subject to anything that affects permanents in general or that affects the token’s card type or subtype. A token isn’t a card (even if represented by a card that has a Magic back or that came from a Magic booster pack).
110.5f. A token that’s in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
110.5g. A token that has left the battlefield can’t move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
605.1a. An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets all of the following criteria: it doesn’t
require a target (see rule 114.6), it could add mana to a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and
it’s not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”)
605.2. A mana ability remains a mana ability even if the game state doesn’t allow it to produce mana.
Example: A permanent has an ability that reads “{T}: Add {G} for each creature you
control.” The ability is still a mana ability even if you control no creatures or if the
permanent is already tapped.
605.3. Activating an activated mana ability follows the rules for activating any other activated ability
(see rule 602.2), with the following exceptions:
605.3a. A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever they have priority, whenever they
are casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or
effect asks for a mana payment, even if it’s in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or
activating or resolving an ability.
605.3b. An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or
otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)
Karn, Silver Golem: Treasure can both pay for Karn's activated ability and be used by it to create death triggers for the deck. In addition, Karn allows us to neuter or beat opposing Smothering Tithes, by letting us use our mana to actively destroy opponents' treasure at half the cost it would take them to deny us ours. This is yet another avenue for Karn to force Salvaging Station to untap for repeated use.
Kultotha Forgemaster: Provides free sack fodder . Each turn cycle will generate enough treasure to Tinker out any artifact from your library.
Steel Hellkite: Smothering Tithe generates enough mana to allow Hellkite to more reliably destroy higher CMC permanents with ease and gains additional reach on opponents with respectable life totals.
Memory Jar and Timetwister: Smothering Tithe allows your draw 7's to net you anywhere from 7 to 28 treasure tokens per effect played.
Whispering Madness and Windfall: These will typically generate you less treasure, but can potentially net you much more. In rare instances where these cards are chained after a Cyclonic Rift, it can easily generate enough mana to find non-deterministic lines to win the game on the spot.
Mind's Eye : You can stack the triggers such that, if the opponent fails to pay for their draw, your Smothering Tithe will pay for Mind's Eye trigger and let you draw cards for free.
Transmute Artifact : Treasure provides the sac fodder and pays to climb the CMC chain for the search.
Whir of Invention : Treasure provides fuels Improvise cost reductions to save that treasure for your tutor target.
Time Sieve : Treasure provides fuels free extra turns.
Whir of Invention : Treasure provides fuels Improvise cost reductions to save that treasure for your tutor target.
Clock of Omens : Smothering Tithe provides free artifact permanents for clock activations, kicking it into 3rd gear.
Trading Post : Converts treasure into creature tokens or cards.
Bitter Ordeal : Stockpiled Treasure can surgically extract multiple threats and answers out of your opponent's libraries, rendering their decks powerless.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas : Treasure provides allows you to easily and quickly snipe players out of the game.
Tezzeret, the Seeker: Treasure accumulation allows the Tezzeret ultimate to more easily threaten lethal to all opponents at once.
Inventor's Fair : Allows Inventor's Fair to trigger and activate in a turn cycle, typically with no additional help.
... and finally, for the rest of the updates
Steel Hellkite - This is a card that has often made its way in and out of the format, but now with Karn Liberated being too slow and the risk ofUgin, the Spirit Dragon exiling critical pieces off your board in the name of defense being a little too high, Hellkite is back to assist with removal duties.
Whispering Madness - This card has actually been in my list for quite some time, but I don't think I added it to any posted lists on this thread, and so I'm doing it now. It also pairs extremely well with some of the new additions we will soon discuss. The fact that it has encode is great, but you can always chose to not encode the card if you think you will need to recycle the card for later use in the game.
Whir of Invention - For the longest time, I did not like this card as improvise does little to cheat this card's cost to reliably get what you need, when you need it. With the next two additions, this card becomes much stronger, warranting serious testing.
Clock of Omens - Many players have had this card bounce in and out of their lists, including me. This card has traditionally been used to squeeze many portions of engines into second gear, but not enough of them with enough consistency to cement itself across all decks. With the increased tutors and the addition of the next card, this card may now be strong enough to do just that.
Teferi's Protection: Hyper-efficient protection and one of the few ways to protect yourself from Cyclonic Rift. Also, rules updates to Phasing now allow your tokens to phase back into play.
Cyclonic Rift: This is the best card in the format. The fast we also play draw 7's makes it even better. Added to supplement the removal package.
Martyr's Bond: New inclusion I'm testing to supplement the removal package, while exerting a good degree of board control.
Mana Confluence and Spire of Industry: These have been included in my list since they were released, but I am including them on the list for clarity as I have not denoted their inclusion previously. They are Upgrades to existing 5-color lands.
Command Beacon: Back-up effect in case buried ruin gets exiled. Because we also use Academy Ruins, this may not be necessary, but testing for completeness. Will most likely be replaced by another more unique utility land.
Thespian Stage: New testing slot. Looking to see how effective this card is.
There are a few cards I really wish I could slot into the deck, but I don't have / haven't identified the space to do so without making the deck weaker.
Here are those cards and my reasoning for wanting to slot them, in order.
Veldalken Orrey / Leyline of Anticipation: As I've been playing other decks in the abscence of major Sharuum updates, I have grownto really appreciate the power of instant-speed interaction. Being able to jump the turn cycle on playing spells and triggering effects makes decks both more resilient to removal and better able to out-value the table
[card]Pithing Needle/card]: I've wanted to slot this in the deck for years, but now that cards have gotten more hyper-efficient, I feel Needle is primed to make huge waves in this decck.
Mirrorweave: With the ease by which you makec creature tokens in this list, I love this card for it's aggressive and defensive applications in a world overrun with efficient removal.
Marionette Master: This card has been on my radar since it came out, but has always felt underwhelming in that it's one-degree of interation too far removed to be reliably amazing. What piques my interest now, is that your treasures now deal free damage to opponents. Combine this with Tawnos's Coffin's unique ablility to keep the blinked counters counters onto the Marionette Master, and those degrees of interactionare get closer to wherew you want them to be.
Notion Thief: With all the draw 7's running around because of Smothering Tithe use, it's a great blow-out. You don't get all the mana, but you get all the cards
Lands:
Since this deck runs more colorless spells than most,[/left] we have an easier time with running utility lands than most decks. Here have been my observations over the years:
Gemstone Cavern is great at almost any point you draw it. It's definately a keeper for me.
Academy Ruins and Buried Ruin have been great at recursion for the deck. No complaints here whatsoever.
Cephalid Coliseum has been increasingly underwhelming with the release of increasing better graveyard hate. I'm considering replacing this with Geir-Reach Sanitarium, so I'm looking for a copy to test the swap.
With Bazaar no longer in the deck, I've found less reason to run Urborg, as I don't want to turn on my opponent's Coffers. I run Thespian Stage to be able to copy their Coffers or other broken mana. I prefer it over Vesuva because it doesn;t come into play tapped and can protect itself from Wasteland and its kin.
I've weaned off Wasteland use until I eventually cut it. There is never a point in the game where you will ever search for this over Strip Mine.
Spoilers:
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge seems like it may be a good inclusion to the list. Mass lifedrain is never bad, and the other two modes are useful The potential to play alongside a number of other cards to make slotting Aetherflux Reservoir is starting to shape up (cards like Thopter Foundry, Tezzeret AoB and Noxious Gearhulk are some that come to mind. I'm most excited for the newly spoiled Emergence Zone.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
So I guess my question is, where do you see the deck belonging along the competitive slope? In my experience Sharuum doesn't keep up with a lot of other competitive decks.
@Jostin123
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your updated list.
I was hesitating to include Smothering Tithe because it wasn't artifact, but now you convinced me.
Why the removal of Bazaar? It's a choice I don't understand.
and What are your thoughts about including the new revealed Karn the Great Creator? http://mythicspoiler.com/war/cards/karnthegreatcreator.html
I see it as an interesting recursion (getting back exiled combo pieces) and even a combo piece himself with Mycosynth Lattice (my playgroup even allows 10-cards wishboard, but maybe that exception will not last with this new Karn).
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
On page 42 of this topic you may find several decklists of different strategies. But they are outdated.
I also compiled the most useful information about the Engine List: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/primer-edh-sharuum-engine-jostin-version
Of course this list is completely outdated, but the information provided will help you understand the strategies and mechanics behind the Engine List.
As others have said it before me: Engine Sharuum isn't for competitive EDH (cEDH), and is a rather expensive deck for other meta.
Even myself I abandoned Sharuum in favor of Breya.
You may find good Tier 1 competitive lists (often with a primer) in the description section of this thread:
[List - Multiplayer] EDH Generals by Tier (on TappedOut.net)
I'd highly disagree that a toxic community is the best avenue for any sort of discussion.
Well yes and no, the regular folks in cEDH(who I am one of) are not toxic, the problem with reddit in general is there are a lot of visitors who like to troll and derail posts. The good thing about the cEDH reddit is, it is moderated so you don't get things like someone necro threading posts from 2010 on irrelevant decks, and I see that here all the time.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
This is what might be considered toxic
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I digress. I've been thinking a lot about what edges Sharuum has over the common tier 1 decks. The answers used to be recursion and repeatable effects to grind out a game, but as we've discussed to death that doesn't work anymore. I think that even if Sharuum doesn't have what it takes to currently be tier 1, it has advantages that make it worth not giving up on.
I think it is a good idea to take a lot of the ideas from stronger decks - use Ad Nauseam, drop the mana curve, and run a counterspell suite. But what parts of Sharuum should we keep? I believe there are at least 3 interesting advantages that make Sharuum worth exploring:
1. Colorless mana. As a deck that can focus on artifacts, Sharuum can use colorless mana in ways that other decks can't. Mishra's Workshop, for example, is one of the most powerful lands of all time, but as far as I know no other deck can run it. Very few decks can run Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, and while you can also argue that the card shouldn't be in Sharuum, I think it's worth testing him even in a lean build. Other decks have a heavy reliance on colored permanents to support their glass-cannon cards (Sylvan Library, Necropotence, Mystic Remora, Deathrite Shaman), and Ugin can expose those glass cannon decks for what they are, if he resolves early enough.
1a. Artifact mana. Sure, many top tier decks use about 9-12 mana rocks just like Sharuum, but the most powerful ones create only colorless mana (Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Sol Ring). Without lands, Sharuum's mana base is, in this way at least, inherently stronger than other manabases. It's obviously weaker to Null Rod and Stony Silence, but it's an edge nonetheless.
2. Combo pieces that can play the value game. Basalt Monolith, Rings of Brighthearth, and Sensei's Divining Top are all decent to excellent cards in their own right, and together they win the game on the spot. Sharuum is able to pull this combo off better than any other deck, again, because of its ability to use colorless mana. You can definitely argue that this particular combo is worse than just Doomsday-ing, but I think it is not clear-cut when you consider that drawing Rings is a whole lot better than drawing Laboratory Maniac, especially if your game plan can make the game slower and more draw-dependent.
3. Combo pieces that are artifacts. Artifacts are much easier to tutor than instants, sorceries, and planeswalkers, and tutors that put them directly onto the battlefield save us from having to spend tempo to actually cast them.
So, what actual deckbuilding changes do these 3 considerations bring us to? I believe this way of looking at the deck gives us a different way to think about sweepers.
In this thread we played around with a land destruction plan, but shook our heads and went, "no, there aren't enough LD effects." I'm playing with the idea that instead of thinking of a critical mass of LD, we can try to think of the deck as having a critical mass of sweeping value/tempo disruption effects. What this means is that All is Dust and Cyclonic Rift can be thought of in the same vein as Armageddon. Sharuum's colorlessness and strength of artifact mana could make All is Dust, Ugin, and Armageddon uniquely asymmetrical.
Now, there are holes in this idea. The sweepers I mentioned are very expensive. Sweepers don't get you ahead like the value cards they destroy. The idea isn't foolproof, but I do believe they are edges that other decks don't have like Sharuum does. I do believe that, at the very least, this is a new lens with which to view cards in new expansions.
Something to note about all this - I don't think this edge of sweepers needs to be a huge number of cards. 8 fast combo cards (2 Sculpting Steel, 2 Bitter Ordeal effects, 1 grave hate card, Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek/Time Sieve), 33 lands, 11 artifact mana sources, ~12 of the best tutors and selection, and ~10 broken disruption cards already adds up to 74 cards. That's only ~25 cards to actually experiment with, so having 5 or so sweepers is a significant portion of the non-base part of the deck. Note that fast combo decks can run 7 counterspells and still feel like they have a LOT of countermagic. If the sweepers are viable, then we don't need too many new sweepers printed to make it a real theme.
TL;DR - Sharuum might not be tier 1, but here are some edges that make playing with her interesting and give her potential with new sets. I believe with the same tools, Sharuum can combo on turn 3 like the best of them, but could also play certain sweepers to keep other decks honest - and slower than her. Lastly, the "base" of powerful cards in Esper EDH is pretty darn big in the first place, so you don't need to change THAT many cards to give a deck a very different feel.
Creatures:
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
6 Sharuum the Hegemon
7 Magister Sphinx
Mana Rocks:
0 Chrome Mox
0 Lion's Eye Diamond
0 Lotus Petal
0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Diamond
0 Mox Opal
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Grim Monolith
2 Fellwar Stone
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Talisman of Progress
3 Basalt Monolith
5 Gilded Lotus
Draw/Manipulation:
1 Brainstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Mystic Remora
1 Preordain
1 Ponder
2 Night's Whisper
3 Necropotence
3 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Windfall
5 Memory Jar
Tutors:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Artificer's Intuition
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition
3 Whir of Invention
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
7 Karn Liberated
8 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Artifacts:
0 Tormod's Crypt
1 Altar of the Brood
1 Expedition Map
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Voltaic Key
2 Mesmeric Orb
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Time Sieve
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Rings of Brighthearth
3 Sculpting Steel
Disruption:
1 Dispel
1 Mental Misstep
1 Silence
1 Swan Song
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Anguished Unmaking
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Vindicate
5 Force of Will
7 All is Dust
Bitter Ordeal:
3 Bitter Ordeal
Lands - 34
Fetchables:
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Flooded Strand
0 Polluted Delta
0 Windswept Heath
0 Hallowed Fountain
0 Watery Grave
0 Godless Shrine
0 Island (4)
0 Swamp
0 City of Brass
0 Command Tower
0 Exotic Orchard
0 Forbidden Orchard
0 Glimmervoid
0 Mana Confluence
0 Reflecting Pool
0 Spire of Industry
0 Tarnished Citadel
0 Underground River
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Mana Ramp:
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Gemstone Caverns
Artifact Lands:
0 Ancient Den
0 Seat of the Synod
0 Vault of Whispers
Utility Lands:
0 Academy Ruins
0 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
0 Cavern of Souls
0 Cephalid Coliseum
0 Strip Mine
0 Wasteland
Want List (should put in):
Flusterstorm, Mana Drain, Ravages of War, Mishra's Workshop, Timetwister. I think I play rarely enough to wait for Eternal Masters 2 on the first three, and the latter two...I might never play with. Obviously they're bonkers. You could run the original duals and more fetchlands, but honestly I think at 33 lands we have enough rainbow lands printed to make the money investment irrelevant.
Possible cards to test:
Tormod's Crypt (over Nihil Spellbomb), Imperial Seal, Pull from Eternity, Tainted Pact, and Paradox Engine. I think Tormod's and Pull are the best from these, and Ajacobik makes an interesting point about Pull in conjunction with Tainted Pact.
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListWelgo was running it in his list last I checked.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
On an unrelated but Sharuum centric note, my devotion to her took over my Breya deck. It's obviously not nearly as efficent as just running her, but the Torrential Gearhulk combo is actually easier with her in the 99 and red gives us some fun tools to work towards the standard combo. I don't mean to try and convince anyone to run it, but it's been enjoyable to win with Sharuum outside of a Sharuum deck.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Edit: Oh, and all the sheninigans of playing a midrange game and getting out Sharuum with the purpose of comboing and having access to all those crazy red cards.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
My meta isn't that much competitive so I can manage to win after a long delay. I prefer interactions over fast combo.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Along with some of the other posters, I have moved to Breya. My Breya list focuses on Doomsday, Ad Naus, and George to either win with Lab Man or with a large number of Breya activations. I played around with a package of Aetherflux Reservoir, Shimmer Myr, and cost reducers to make bunches of life and pop opponents for 50, but it was ultimately too cute.
1 Azorius Signet
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Clock of Omens
1 Dimir Signet
1 Doubling Cube
1 Elbrus, the Binding Blade Flip
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Grindclock
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mesmeric Orb
1 Mirrorworks
1 Mox Opal
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Paradox Engine
1 Prototype Portal
1 Scourglass
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Sword of the Meek
1 The Immortal Sun
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Thran Temporal Gateway
1 Time Sieve
1 Unwinding Clock
1 Voltaic Key
1 Winter Orb
1 Enigma Sphinx
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Magister Sphinx
1 Master Transmuter
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sandstone Oracle
1 Sharding Sphinx
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Sphinx Summoner
1 Thopter Assembly
Creature(non-Artifact)
1 Chief Engineer
1 Grand Architect
1 Muzzio, Visionary Architect
Enchantment
1 Darksteel Mutation
1 Thopter Spy Network
Sorcery
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Fabricate
1 Mastermind's Acquisition
1 Portent
1 Refurbish
1 Reshape
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Windfall
Instant
1 Brainstorm
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Entomb
1 Esper Charm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Force Spike
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Perplex
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Swan Song
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Whir of Invention
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Den
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Bad River
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Buried Ruin
1 Command Tower
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Dromar's Cavern
1 Esper Panorama
1 Flood Plain
1 Flooded Strand
1 Glimmervoid
1 Halimar Depths
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Island
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Spire of Industry
1 Swamp
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Temple of Silence
1 Tolaria West
1 Vault of Whispers
One year ago, I merged my Sharuum into Breya.
But now, after the spoiling of Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice, I'm probably going to split my Breya back into him and Sharuum. Because I miss old Kitty.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Spells - 64
Artifact Creatures (9)
(4) Phyrexian Metamorph
(5) Kudoltha Forgemaster
(5) Karn, Silver Golem
(6) Sharuum the Hegemon
(6) Duplicant
(6) Steel Hellkite
(7) Magister Sphinx
(7) Myr Battlephere
(8) Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Mana Rocks - 13
Cog Mana Rocks - 8
(0) Lion's Eye Diamond
(0) Lotus Bloom
(0) Lotus Petal
(0) Mana Crypt
(0) Mox Diamond
(0) Mox Opal
(0) Mana Vault
(1) Sol Ring
Non- Cog Rocks - 5
(2) Azorius Signet
(2) Dimir Signet
(2) Grim Monolith
(3) Chromatic Lantern
(5) Gilded Lotus
Draw Effects - 5
(3) Timetwister
(3) Windfall
(4) Whispering Madness
(5) Memory Jar
(5) Mind's Eye
Tutors - 7
(1) Entomb
(1) Vampiric Tutor
(2) Artificer's Intuition
(2) Demonic Tutor
(2) Transmute Artifact
(3) Intuition
(3) Whir of Invention*
Utility Artifacts - 21
Cog-Based Utility - 10
(0) Tormod's Crypt
(1) Aether Spellbomb
(1) Dispeller's Capsule
(1) Elixer of Immortality
(1) Executioner's Capsule
(1) Expedition Map
(1) Sensei's Divining Top
(1) Skullclamp
(1) Voltaic Key
(1) Voyager's Staff
Non Cog Utility Artifacts - 10
(2) Sword of The Meek
(3) Crucible of Worlds
(3) Rings of Brighthearth
(3) Sculpting Steel
Resource Conversion Engines- 7
(2) Thopter Foundry
(2) Time Sieve
(4) Clock of Omens
(4) Smothering Tithe
(4) Tawnos's Coffin
(4) Trading Post
(6) Salvaging Station
Spell-Based Protection - 2
(3) Bitter Ordeal
(3) Teferi's Protection*
Spell-Based Recursion - 2
(6) Open the Vaults
(7) Roar of Reclamation
Spell-Based Removal - 3
(2) Cyclonic Rift
(5) Martyr's Bond
(7) All is Dust
Planeswalkers - 3
(4) Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
(5) Tezerret the Seeker
(5) Venser, the Sojourner
Lands - 36*
5-Color Lands- 6
City of Brass
Command Tower
Mana Confluence
Reflecting Pool
Spire of Industry
Tarnished Citadel
Artifact Lands (Cog Lands)- 4
Ancient Den
Darksteel Citadel
Seat of the Synod
Vault of Whispers
Fetch Engine - 9
Flooded Strand
Godless Shrine
Hallowed Fountain
Marsh Flats
Polluted Delta
Scrubland
Tundra
Underground Sea
Watery Grave
Filter Lands - 3
Fetid Heath
Mystic Gate
Sunken Ruins
Utility Lands - 9
Academy Ruins
Buried Ruin
Cavern of Souls
Cephalid Coliseum
Command Beacon
Inkmoth Nexus
Inventor's Fair
Phyrexian Tower
Strip Mine
Thespian Stage
Ramp Lands - 5
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein
Gemstone Cavern
Mishra's Workshop
[/spoiler]
* Please note: The base might be primed for an overhaul. I'm using the existing mana base because it is proven, but the resulting changes may allow us to further refine the mana base for optimization, allowing us to conserve more slots currently dedicated to mana rocks or even shave on lands. More testing will be required to determine whether this is the case.
If anyone wants my bio update, here it is. I suspect most can skip this section, but it's here for consistency.
After having taken a break from Vintage to raise a family, I got back into the format in 2015, top 8'ing my first local event back from a 5 year hiatus with an old list from 2011, a 40 person 1k event. I top 8'ed many more local events, and came in 46th place at my very first Vintage World Championship in 2016 - the highest placing Goblin Welder list at the tournament. Since then, I've continued to place well at events on the rare occasions I can attend them, having a very strong run with colorless prison until the Thorn of Amethyst restriction, before finally giving in to playing Ravager Shops. My last strong finish being 10th place at the 96 player Eternal Extravaganze 4 event. I currently play Ravager Shops and Ritual Storm in Vintage. My other current EDH decks consist of Lord Windgrace (prison), Saffi Eriksdotter (creature Sharuum), and Zedruu, the Greathearted (non-prison, non-engine deck). As an aside, I split the finals of a M19 store championship during an out of state visit to my parents, not having drafted a standard set for at least a year before that event.
Deck Building Methods and Philosophy updates
Dispeller's Capsule, Time Sieve, Thopter Foundry, Trading Post, or a Karn, Silver Golem activation in conjunction with Executioner's Capsule, Voyager's Staff, Aether Spellbomb, will all address this solution, while creating triggers or board changes that will feed many other synergies in this deck. Top can cheat extra draws with Voltaic Key and Rings of Brighthearth, when animated and targeted by Tawnos's Coffin, or when animated.. sacked.. and revived by Salvaging Station. And, each of the other mentioned cards above all work with multiple other engines and feedback loops in the deck.
The same way that a tutors, draw spells, and card filtering in a combo deck create a system of feedback loops within a respectable curve to siphon a threshold of Dark rituals, kill conditions, and lethal storm count for a tendrils kill; each card in your deck should feed itself into as many systems as possible, at as many points in the game as possible (taking your curve into account), to create a machine that will consistently churn synergies to carry you into a win. The easier a combo deck accomplishes this, the more balanced the deck is. If you find that this same deck is very draw dependent, or that it is not "going off" consistently when going through the motions, the deck is not balanced and needs more tinkering.
Recent Changes
With the insane amount of power-creep experienced over the last few years, games swings are the biggest they have ever been this format. In addition, there have been many commanders that were printed to be laser-focused and pre-packaged one-card engines. Combine this together with an increase in efficient hate and you get an environment where waiting to sculpt the entire can, and often will, earn you a game loss. The removal and protection packages needed to evolve to keep up . Many changes have also created new, more explosive play patterns for the deck to abuse, to take advantage of the bigger swings more commonly found in the format across a larger number of decks and strategies.
Smothering Tithe - This card is just insane... and that's if it's used fairly. We won't, and it's all explained here:
Smothering Tithe provides the deck with a ton of interactions, ranging from very solid to ban-worthy. The following is an in-depth analysis on Smothering Tithe's interactions and reason for inclusion. In order to understand the interactions, one must have a good grasp of the comprehensive rules, in order to know when and how it would be beneficial to use these applications. I will break down the interactions with card by card type and/or engine where applicable.
[spoiler=The Power of Smothering Tithe]
We all know Smothering Tithe forces your opponents to either abandon their board development or allow you to gain mana and permanents for free, which is why it ranks so high among Commander players. While most decks mainly use Treasure to produce extra mana, our engine-based deck is uniquely positioned to extract much more value from this card. Remember that Treasure tokens are artifacts, and so every aspect of their existence (token creation to trigger artifact ETB effects, residual mana, the 0 CMC, their use can force death triggers, free artifact permanents to pay for effect costs ) plug into multiple engines and conversions that are highly relevant to the deck.
I was very skeptical in incorporating a non-artfiact card to work as an engine in the deck, despite it's power being a known quantity. What makes Smothering Tithe uniquely positioned, and the reason I decided to include it as the only non-artifact engine piece in the deck, is because can convert select non-artifact resources (instants, sorceries, turn based effects, opposing value triggers, etc.) into mana and artifact permanents for engine fuel and resource conversion.
Smothering sets up a trigger whenever an opponent draws any card, and it triggers for each card drawn. If an opponent is instructed to draw multiple cards, that player draws all of them before deciding how many times to pay for Smothering Tithe’s triggered ability.
Smothering Tithe makes Treasure tokens that generate mana, and so it follows all game rules governing tokens and mana use.
110.5. Some effects put tokens onto the battlefield. A token is a marker used to represent any permanent that isn’t represented by a card.
110.5a. A token is both owned and controlled by the player under whose control it entered the battlefield.
110.5b The spell or ability that creates a token may define the values of any number of characteristics for the token. This becomes the token’s “text.” The characteristic values defined this way are functionally equivalent to the characteristic values that are printed on a card; for example, they define the token’s copiable values. A token doesn’t have any characteristics not defined by the spell or ability that created it. The resulting token has no mana cost, supertype, rules text, or abilities.
110.5c. A spell or ability that creates a creature token sets both its name and its creature type. If the spell or ability doesn’t specify the name of the creature token, its name is the same as its creature type(s). A “Goblin Scout creature token,” for example, is named “Goblin Scout” and has the creature subtypes Goblin and Scout. Once a token is on the battlefield, changing its name doesn’t change its creature type, and vice versa.
110.5d. If a spell or ability would create a token, but an effect states that a permanent with one or more of that token’s characteristics can’t enter the battlefield, the token is not created.
110.5e. A token is subject to anything that affects permanents in general or that affects the token’s card type or subtype. A token isn’t a card (even if represented by a card that has a Magic back or that came from a Magic booster pack).
110.5f. A token that’s in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
110.5g. A token that has left the battlefield can’t move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
605.1a. An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets all of the following criteria: it doesn’t
require a target (see rule 114.6), it could add mana to a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and
it’s not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”)
605.2. A mana ability remains a mana ability even if the game state doesn’t allow it to produce mana.
Example: A permanent has an ability that reads “{T}: Add {G} for each creature you
control.” The ability is still a mana ability even if you control no creatures or if the
permanent is already tapped.
605.3. Activating an activated mana ability follows the rules for activating any other activated ability
(see rule 602.2), with the following exceptions:
605.3a. A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever they have priority, whenever they
are casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or
effect asks for a mana payment, even if it’s in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or
activating or resolving an ability.
605.3b. An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or
otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)
Karn, Silver Golem: Treasure can both pay for Karn's activated ability and be used by it to create death triggers for the deck. In addition, Karn allows us to neuter or beat opposing Smothering Tithes, by letting us use our mana to actively destroy opponents' treasure at half the cost it would take them to deny us ours. This is yet another avenue for Karn to force Salvaging Station to untap for repeated use.
Kultotha Forgemaster: Provides free sack fodder . Each turn cycle will generate enough treasure to Tinker out any artifact from your library.
Steel Hellkite: Smothering Tithe generates enough mana to allow Hellkite to more reliably destroy higher CMC permanents with ease and gains additional reach on opponents with respectable life totals.
Memory Jar and Timetwister: Smothering Tithe allows your draw 7's to net you anywhere from 7 to 28 treasure tokens per effect played.
Whispering Madness and Windfall: These will typically generate you less treasure, but can potentially net you much more. In rare instances where these cards are chained after a Cyclonic Rift, it can easily generate enough mana to find non-deterministic lines to win the game on the spot.
Mind's Eye : You can stack the triggers such that, if the opponent fails to pay for their draw, your Smothering Tithe will pay for Mind's Eye trigger and let you draw cards for free.
Transmute Artifact : Treasure provides the sac fodder and pays to climb the CMC chain for the search.
Whir of Invention : Treasure provides fuels Improvise cost reductions to save that treasure for your tutor target.
Time Sieve : Treasure provides fuels free extra turns.
Whir of Invention : Treasure provides fuels Improvise cost reductions to save that treasure for your tutor target.
Clock of Omens : Smothering Tithe provides free artifact permanents for clock activations, kicking it into 3rd gear.
Trading Post : Converts treasure into creature tokens or cards.
Bitter Ordeal : Stockpiled Treasure can surgically extract multiple threats and answers out of your opponent's libraries, rendering their decks powerless.
Martyr's Bond : Keep opposing artifacts off the table.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas : Treasure provides allows you to easily and quickly snipe players out of the game.
Tezzeret, the Seeker: Treasure accumulation allows the Tezzeret ultimate to more easily threaten lethal to all opponents at once.
Inventor's Fair : Allows Inventor's Fair to trigger and activate in a turn cycle, typically with no additional help.
... and finally, for the rest of the updates
Steel Hellkite - This is a card that has often made its way in and out of the format, but now with Karn Liberated being too slow and the risk ofUgin, the Spirit Dragon exiling critical pieces off your board in the name of defense being a little too high, Hellkite is back to assist with removal duties.
Whispering Madness - This card has actually been in my list for quite some time, but I don't think I added it to any posted lists on this thread, and so I'm doing it now. It also pairs extremely well with some of the new additions we will soon discuss. The fact that it has encode is great, but you can always chose to not encode the card if you think you will need to recycle the card for later use in the game.
Whir of Invention - For the longest time, I did not like this card as improvise does little to cheat this card's cost to reliably get what you need, when you need it. With the next two additions, this card becomes much stronger, warranting serious testing.
Clock of Omens - Many players have had this card bounce in and out of their lists, including me. This card has traditionally been used to squeeze many portions of engines into second gear, but not enough of them with enough consistency to cement itself across all decks. With the increased tutors and the addition of the next card, this card may now be strong enough to do just that.
Teferi's Protection: Hyper-efficient protection and one of the few ways to protect yourself from Cyclonic Rift. Also, rules updates to Phasing now allow your tokens to phase back into play.
Cyclonic Rift: This is the best card in the format. The fast we also play draw 7's makes it even better. Added to supplement the removal package.
Martyr's Bond: New inclusion I'm testing to supplement the removal package, while exerting a good degree of board control.
Mana Confluence and Spire of Industry: These have been included in my list since they were released, but I am including them on the list for clarity as I have not denoted their inclusion previously. They are Upgrades to existing 5-color lands.
Command Beacon: Back-up effect in case buried ruin gets exiled. Because we also use Academy Ruins, this may not be necessary, but testing for completeness. Will most likely be replaced by another more unique utility land.
Thespian Stage: New testing slot. Looking to see how effective this card is.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
There are a few cards I really wish I could slot into the deck, but I don't have / haven't identified the space to do so without making the deck weaker.
Here are those cards and my reasoning for wanting to slot them, in order.
Veldalken Orrey / Leyline of Anticipation: As I've been playing other decks in the abscence of major Sharuum updates, I have grownto really appreciate the power of instant-speed interaction. Being able to jump the turn cycle on playing spells and triggering effects makes decks both more resilient to removal and better able to out-value the table
[card]Pithing Needle/card]: I've wanted to slot this in the deck for years, but now that cards have gotten more hyper-efficient, I feel Needle is primed to make huge waves in this decck.
Mirrorweave: With the ease by which you makec creature tokens in this list, I love this card for it's aggressive and defensive applications in a world overrun with efficient removal.
Marionette Master: This card has been on my radar since it came out, but has always felt underwhelming in that it's one-degree of interation too far removed to be reliably amazing. What piques my interest now, is that your treasures now deal free damage to opponents. Combine this with Tawnos's Coffin's unique ablility to keep the blinked counters counters onto the Marionette Master, and those degrees of interactionare get closer to wherew you want them to be.
Praetor's Grasp: What's not to love
Notion Thief: With all the draw 7's running around because of Smothering Tithe use, it's a great blow-out. You don't get all the mana, but you get all the cards
Lands:
Since this deck runs more colorless spells than most,[/left] we have an easier time with running utility lands than most decks. Here have been my observations over the years:
Spoilers:
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge seems like it may be a good inclusion to the list. Mass lifedrain is never bad, and the other two modes are useful The potential to play alongside a number of other cards to make slotting Aetherflux Reservoir is starting to shape up (cards like Thopter Foundry, Tezzeret AoB and Noxious Gearhulk are some that come to mind. I'm most excited for the newly spoiled Emergence Zone.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your updated list.
I was hesitating to include Smothering Tithe because it wasn't artifact, but now you convinced me.
Why the removal of Bazaar? It's a choice I don't understand.
and What are your thoughts about including the new revealed Karn the Great Creator?
http://mythicspoiler.com/war/cards/karnthegreatcreator.html
I see it as an interesting recursion (getting back exiled combo pieces) and even a combo piece himself with Mycosynth Lattice (my playgroup even allows 10-cards wishboard, but maybe that exception will not last with this new Karn).