I personally have found space for both Slaver and a Spine effect. For months, it was spine itself, but I am testing Karn in its place, and I have to say that Karn Planeswalker is growing on me. I don't run the singleton vindicate that I see you run in your list, so if you're tight on space, I'd suggest starting there.
Spine is a good slot, but it doesn't strike me as great. It costs a lot, doesn't do anything while it sits in play. I find that is never a card you exclusively want to tap out for if you have other lines of play, nor do you want to burn a transmute artifact or a reshape to play it, and it requires its cumulative marginal synergy with other cards in the deck, if you have them (Karn, Silver Golem, Tezzeret Agent of Bolas, sacking to time sieve or transmute artifact, tricks with Transmuter, and/or copying with Mirrorworks, Tricks with Venser the Sojourner) for it to become better than just a Spine. Karn the Redeemed does the same thing, but almost better as he draws heat that Sharuum would normally be drawing in its place, and through the use of Thop Foundry and Tez Agent of Bolas, you have a means to protect him if necessary.
The real determinant between Spine and Karn really will be play preference and the individual list one is trying to slot Spine in. Like a tournament, this is one where the margins of catering to your play style gain you more percentage points than running the "optimal" choice and the requires deck changes to otherwise accommodate it would.
Lastly, I am a strong advocate for Aether a spellbomb in the deck. Bouncing a creature may not be all that great for some, but the tempo gained and using it with great timing (on a general in response to a Time Spiral or during a Jar turn) give it stregnth. It's best use for me has been
1) as an attack deterrent
2) to Keep Sharuum's casting cost down when games go long
3) To hit creatures with pro-colors and indestructibility, which is more than a rarity in these parts
A quality post. Even more so since I've got Karn sitting in my binder, unused and unloved. I picked him up for a mono-black deck that never happened (mostly because MB is terrible), and have yet to find a serious use for him. I've just a personal bias against using PWs unless they REALLY add something to the list-a silly thing, I know. But I try to avoid using them as much as possible in every deck I make.
But, versatility reigns supreme when you're trying to make the best list possible. The only argument I can make here in favor of spine is it's ability to interact with our recursion suite. I'd like to get some more testing in before trying out Karn-which I might get in tonight.
Karn also can restart games. Hello baaaaaaaaaaabbby.
Aether Spellbomb is a quality card I've tried desperately to fit into the list for some time. I'm hesitant about what to cut in favor of it though. Let's pour over the list and see what I can take out...
EDIT: @Secularon: Because planeswalkers.
DOUBLE EDIT: The only thing I could see cutting would be Engineered Explosives because of it's variable use. It's much stronger when you know what the meta is going to look like, weaker when you're playing abroad. All the same, it's still a "decent" to "****ing amazing" problem solver, if a bit fat.
theoretically speaking, any "real" problematic cards within the 3 CMC and lower range can likely be handled by cards we're already packing (Spine, Karn, Dispellers/executioner's capsule, vindicate/STP). Many of those options are also easily tutored. Pithing Needle is in a similar predicament, but gets far more use than EE ever has. As I've said in other threads, it's a one-mana problem solver.
The amount of times EE is a bust exceeds the number of times it's amazing. It's in kind of the same place Mindslaver is, but I've played it a hell of a lot more. It could be cut, possibly for Aether Spellbomb...or something else.
I'd like to stick with low CMC solution-artifacts.
I used to run Creepers for PW's too, but the more tuned my combos became, the less relevent creepers became.
I'm usually reanimating Kederkt Leviathan, casting Riftsweeper, or Miracling Devastation Tide to Take care of PW's along with everything else. The only bad side is it bounces our stuff too.
I used to run Mindslaver, but I'm just a fan of combos that kill everyone. Not one shots like Void and Helm, or anything else of that nature. The natural combo for Sharrum is just so strong, it seems good enough to just run sculting, Metamorph, Disciple and gravestorm.....call it a day there. And do everything else to disrupt. Although that can get boring, it seems really efficient.
The amount of times EE is a bust exceeds the number of times it's amazing. It's in kind of the same place Mindslaver is, but I've played it a hell of a lot more. It could be cut, possibly for Aether Spellbomb...or something else.
I'd like to stick with low CMC solution-artifacts.
Thoughts?
Engineered Explosives is an answer, not a threat. As such, I can't speak for possible replacements until I get a sense for the kind of permanents you are trying to answer, especially since I try to steer away from answers in my list, only running the ones that are absolutely necessary (dispeller's & executioner's capsules, O-Stone (which I've interchange with All is Dust frequently), or those have some kind of offensive applications (duplicant Karn PW, Timetwister, Ensnaring Bridge, Tawnos's Coffin).
I don't run Swords, Vindicate, EE, & Pithing Needle. I don't run Will (which is the first Sacred Cow I've slayed, which from comparing out lists is where I have the space for Roar of Reclamation). Unlike Vintage, our Yawg Will is almost always relegates itself to rebuilding the board and not spelling the end of the game the moment it resolves. RoR and Open the vaults act as combo pieces, which function like will, end up costing less than Will, and leaves my artifacts untapped to continue the shenanigans. They can act as answers, but have offensive (and not just defensive) applications.
Quote from Jack_from_NC »
I've just a personal bias against using PWs unless they REALLY add something to the list-a silly thing, I know. But I try to avoid using them as much as possible in every deck I make.
I don't purposely try to run them, but planeswalkers have made their way into the deck as a function of my creed on lists - playing threats over answers. The above discussion between Karn and Spine is just one example. I was surprised to glance over my list and see that I run four starting with Tez the Seeker, then Venser, then Tez SoBAoB, and the fourth and newest being Karn. but I can say that they have all been flexible, efficient, and are legitimate threats. Every ability on each one of them is extremely relevant to the deck, even the "weak ones"
Karn's +4: wins attrition wars when everyone is scrabling after the wipe
Karn's -3: Duplicant, but better
Karn's -14: Call it Raisin Bran, you always get two scoops.
Quote from Jack_from_NC »
Karn also can restart games. Hello baaaaaaaaaaabbby.
Have only pulled it off twice in the history of EDH... don't expect it to happen often.
Venser's +2: Resets your Vaults/Monoliths, Sharuum, and other Planeswalkers (yeah... just think about that for a second)
Venser's -1: is a great way to smash in for infect or General damage
Venser's -8: You run so many cheap artifacts that this going off will end the game immediately
Tez, AoB +1: Extremely relevant
Tez, AoB -1: Protects you, your other walkers, and if I'm not mistaken, is one of the few effective ways to power your permanents through a Humility (Tez can give your stuff a later CDA -Characteristic Defining Ability- timestamp.)
Tez, AoB -4: One shot a player off the table and double your life of better
I don't have to speak for Tezzeret the Seeker. In this deck, it's nuttier than squirrel ****. As you said in your quote...
Quote from Jack_from_NC »
But, versatility reigns supreme when you're trying to make the best list possible.
Planeswalkers are versatile. They do not belong in every deck that has the colors to support them, but in my opinion, replacing a sorcery or instant with a planeswalker that will give you that effect and then some is a no-brainer.
Quote from Jack_from_NC »
Aether Spellbomb is a quality card I've tried desperately to fit into the list for some time. I'm hesitant about what to cut in favor of it though. Let's pour over the list and see what I can take out...
If you want, I can post my list on this thread. I am testing some of the slots you swear by. I really don't like Magister Sphinx* (although I will admit it is unfair... like having Steve Jobs sitting next to you feeding you answers to your S.A.T.'s unfair: David Beckham kicking-you-in-the-junk wrong ) or Sphinx of the Steel Wind over Blightsteel (which I will still use when playing people outside of my group, as strangers don't quite understand the concept of diplomacy). However, due to my use of Cavern of Souls, I am giving them another shot.
I am also testing Trading Post, which I have recently acquired and many swear by. I'm itching to see if it's as nutty as people say it is.
Lastly, I retooled by artifact and land mana base to accommodate a 36th land, Bazaar of Baghdad. I'm testing it, and as soon as the Sandy recovery allows my boys and I some time to sling, I'll let you know how it performs. The Parks and Sanitation departments here in the city have been overworked due to the storm and the subsequent damage.
* Just thought about it... you don't like playing offensive cards (offensive like George Carlin, not the Miami Heat) cards. Why is Magister Sphinx in your list if that's the case?
Please do post your list. You seem to have a different view on most of the 'swear-by' cards, and I'm interested in seeing what you play instead of those.
Trading Post is pretty good, imho. I had someone comment on why I kept bringing it back with my academy ruins over other things. It's, among other things, a second ruins that brings to hand instead of the top of the library, as well as an emergency blocker, card draw, and life-gain. It also works well with Foundry and Salvaging station, using the tokens for recurring artifacts and drawing cards, and station can let you sacrifice a cheap artifact for a card, then return it for another use.
You bring up good points, however. I'm going to look at my list to see what I can cut for Karn and Venser.
Please do post your list. You seem to have a different view on most of the 'swear-by' cards, and I'm interested in seeing what you play instead of those.
Trading Post is pretty good, imho. I had someone comment on why I kept bringing it back with my academy ruins over other things. It's, among other things, a second ruins that brings to hand instead of the top of the library, as well as an emergency blocker, card draw, and life-gain. It also works well with Foundry and Salvaging station, using the tokens for recurring artifacts and drawing cards, and station can let you sacrifice a cheap artifact for a card, then return it for another use.
You bring up good points, however. I'm going to look at my list to see what I can cut for Karn and Venser.
jostin is part of a group with a very radical style of deck building. in our group, synergy is needed over raw power to maximize every single draw, because games can end (or you could be eliminated) at ANY given point in time (and when the games turn into a grindfest, you need to compound as many advantages as you can). for example, mana crypt needs to be more than a mana artifact (there have been a few lists in the group where mana crypt was a kill condition) and things like mana drain can be "not good enough". no card is safe from being cut, and nothing is a staple.
i really would take what he has to say about sharuum to heart. hes been playing the deck forever (using just about every playable for it) and has accomplished what some would say is impossible with the deck. i honestly have never seen a more capable and knowledgeable sharuum pilot.
trading post is something i have been pushing him to test. it looks really good on paper, and should perform just as good as it looks. there are so many cards and effects that interact with it in a stock list that i cannot see it under performing in a more optimized list.
* Denotes testing slots for the deck
** Denotes natural updates for the deck
My Bio:
I am a primarily a Vintage Player, and began playing the game in 1994. I along with Teammate Ici Li created the Mono-Red Bazaar Stax list we called MRC (Mono Red Control) that was later dubbed "Bazaar Stax" and "The Truth". The deck dominated the Vintage metagame between 2008 and 2011. Deck lists and reports can be found on various sites across the internet (If anyone would like to see them for reference, I can edit them in, but for right now, the discussion is about Sharuum and not Stax, and it is currently 1am in the morning). I started as a blue control / combo pilot that began learning to play Shops in 2003, and have posted solid finishes in quite a few tournaments. By 2009, my proficiency with playing Shops became renouned in the Northeast. After the closing of Neutral Ground in NYC, I organized Vintage tournaments for almost 1 1/2 years, before turning my focus to family.
Deck Building Methods and Philosophy
My build has always been centered around being the most efficient possible. I play with a pretty brutal group of good players that can threaten infinite at any point from turn 4 on. My experience with playing 5C Shops has been vital in creating and updating my lists. There are a few deck-building patterns that have enjoyed an abundance of success with.
My optimal ratio of artifacts to non-artifacts for tuned Sharuum builds rests at the 50/50 mark. This has given me the most rewards with regard to maximizing the deck's value with the majority of the engines in the deck. This becomes key to consistency as it dramatically decreased colored spell mana count and increases colorless spell mana count in the deck, which in turn increases your lines of play and virtually lowers your curve. You worry less about hitting the right colors of mana, and focus more on hitting the right amount of mana (and this deck generates a metric f***-ton of mana).
Play threats over answers. My playgroup has an established meta-game, but being part of two almost-separate playgroups, that allows my deck the most flexibility to be able to play my game, regardless of whoever I sit with at my table. This also allows me to play blow-for-blow with whichever opponent decides that the turn 2-5 masturbation-into-early-combo-kill is fun. Being able to disrupt this kind of player earn me more allies and accolades from the table then any other gesture of good will. It also allows me to play my game under the next philosophy...
Bluff like poker, but play like chess. Playing answers over threats allows me to play with knife-like precision, but at the expense of making play mistakes and sub-optimal play more costly, as with Chess. I always want to develop my game. Most commander games are played like tennis. A player drops a threat, and another player plays and answer, then some one answers that play, then the next play... and the game looks like four rackets volleying for position. When you have an abundance of threats, you not only can match or overshadow your opponent's threat, but now they have to answer yours, often at their own expense (whether it be permanents or tempo). And, every time they only play an answer without a follow up, they fall behind. The example on the previous page of why I chose to play Karn Liberated over Spine of Ish-Shah illustrates this perfectly. Every play you make should both extend your game plan and balance / leverage the current board or game state. That ensures that opponents have to overextend to reset the board or press ahead. That generates natural card advantage over the course of the game, which, when playing a recursive general such as Sharuum, should naturally net you enough cards and advantage to press ahead.
Card engines generate more card value than individually powerful cards. This is intuitive to anyone who plays combo decks (which 90% of Magic player do not, and Wizards went on the record declaring that they will nor print any incentive for them to). Most people will misconstrue this to mean playing combos both large and small, and that is wrong. If anyone here has taken Enviromental Science courses, they would understand the concept of a feedback loop. I feedback loop occurs when multiple scenarios work in conjunction with each other to create a perpetual system, thus completing the loop (Example: It rains, rain water from the ground evaporates, evaporated water creates clouds, and saturated clouds rain). This phenomenon when applied to similarly behaving synergies in Magic would be your combo. When multiple feedback loops work together in unison, they create an environment. Card engines working together function as an environment, and so should a Sharuum deck. Thopter foundry works across a rediculous number of feedback loops. Phyrexian Core works with far fewer. Both will save your general from exile, but you know intuitively which one is stronger. Lastly, when environments are balanced, their feedback loops create a system of checks and balances to keep them in balance. A balanced deck should function the same way
Each card in a Sharuum deck should have multiple uses, and most preferably, should have purpose and work across multiple feedback loops. Using the breakdown of my list above, lets say I want to prevent an artifact of mine from being exiled with a Return to Dust. What options do I have?
Dispeller's Capsule, Time Sieve, Thopter Foundry, Trading Post, or a Karn, Silver Golem activation in conjunction with Executioner's Capsule, Voyager's Staff, Aether Spellbomb, will all address this solution, while creating triggers or board changes that will feed many other synergies in this deck. Top can cheat extra draws with Voltaic Key and Rings, when animated and targeted by Coffin, or when animated.. sacked.. and revived by Salvaging Station. And, each of the other mentioned cards above all work with multiple other engines and feedback loops in the deck.
The same way that a tutors, draw spells, and card filtering in a combo deck create a system of feedback loops within a respectable curve to siphon a threshold of Dark rituals, kill conditions, and lethal storm count for a tendrils kill; each card in your deck should feed itself into as many systems as possible, at as many points in the game as possible (taking your curve into account), to create a machine that will consistently churn synergies to carry you into a win. The easier a combo deck accomplishes this, the more balanced the deck is. If you find that this same deck is very draw dependent, or that it is not "going off" consistently when going through the motions, the deck is not balanced and needs more tinkering.
Recent Changes for Card Testing (denoted by *)
This is a card by card analysis of what's currently in, what is replaced, and why. Magister's Sphinx - replacing Blightsteel Colossus. This slot used to be occupied by Sundering Titan until its banning. My group hates both Sphinx and Blightsteel, but has a little more ire for the Sphinx. Because its a Sphinx, Cavern of Souls gets slightly more useful. People on these boards swear by it though, so I will try it again, but won't be surprised if I take it out, as it doesn't suit my play-style and drastically ups the deck's reliance on colored mana.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind - Replacing Master Transmuter. Transmuter was a holdover from when I used to play Sundering Titan, and lost a lot of value when that Titan got banned. I never liked this Sphinx outside of Vintage, as I feel it doesn't do enough to end games, feeling that the best ability is First Strike, being able to deny lifegain and death-touch during combat. I also don't like the triple colored casting cost on this guy.
Myr Battlesphere - Don't remember what got cut.
He's always a solid blink / reanimation target. With the abscence of Sundering Titan to slow down games for the rest of the table, Thopter Foundry has become the best go-to threat the deck can offer. This guy can fire off a Time Sieve activation on his own without Foundry help, as has a pretty decently sized ass. The main reason I'm testing him though, is to see how effective he is as planeswalker control. The attack trigger deals damage to the defending player, which can then be redirected to the planeswalker, but he still gets the power bonus to hit the opponent (or another planeswalker) with. Of all the niche cards I'm testing, I expect this one to be the most versatile.
Fact or Fiction - replacing Compulsive Research. I love CR as a draw spell, but now that I have cut the bouncelands and some Rainbow Lands for the Fetch engine (which was also a hold-over from running Sundering Titan), I know I can't guarantee that I will have, or will want to pitch a land to CR. It wasn't a problem when I was running the Rav. bounce-lands.
Karn Liberated - replacing Spine of Ish-Shah.
Read my post at the top of page 8 for my explanation.
Tormod's Crypt - replacing Bojuka Bog.
This deck needed another GY Removal effect. I ran the Bouncelands and Dromar's Caver specifically to buyback Bojuka Bog (Dromar's Cavern was fantastic in that deck). This deck needs multiple ways to cut Eldrazi off before the late game, and it gets a whole lot better because I run both Timewister and Time Spiral in the deck. As I mentioned earlier to Jack from NC, I prefer card draw over card filtering. Not only are they both amazing card draw spells, but they allow me to protect me from overextending my yard into the infinate GY removal effects that are run in my group, and hardly anyone ever counters one of these. Crypting a player in response to firing one of these off is a great way to proactively eliminate utility cards and lines of play from your opponent.
Unburial Rites - in due to balancing both Sphinxes into the deck for testing.
Both Sphinxes cost a lot of colored mana, and the last thing a person should do is answer that with a spell that will cost you more colored mana, but that's what I'm doing here. Obviously I'm not going to want to pay 7 most times that I want to play these, so I'll have to cheat them into play. This gets the nod over Reanimate solely due to having flashback. If I cut the Sphinxes, this is card is going back to being my coffee mug coaster. I hate playing things as a necessary evil, but you need to have the training wheels on a bike on order to see how it will perform under optimal conditions.
Bazaar of Baghdad - New inclusion I'm testing.
This deck obviously want to mill, so intuitively, you'd think this deserves a spot. I'm going to see if that's true. Baing how my deck's state of mana sources to non-mana sources was 50/50, in order to accomodate this, I had to cut an artifact for the Mana Rock slot, the BW signet, and make adjustments to lower the overall CMC of the deck and increase my Mana fixing just to make the testing more suitable for this manaless land taking up a land slot slot. I'm hoping it's worth the extra work.
Changes due to Deck Upgrades (denoted by **)
Chromatic Lantern is in the deck to smooth out the fact that I am running Bazaar of Baghdad and have reintroduced the Fetch engine into my deck. With Urborg and Lantern overlapping each other in utility, I hope to be able to use my fetches as mana sources as well, giving me added lines of play and protection against Mass LD. I'm hoping it will make the Sphinxes I'm testing not as painful to cast.
Sword of The Meek/Thopter Foundry: During
my last major overhaul, I cut this cute duo as I very rarely relied on it to win. During my list's Sundering Titan era, Sundering Titan would slow down games for those GBx decks that would Primeval out ridiculous amounts of ramp. I'd blow off multiple duals, neutering coffers not by destroying Urborg, but reducing the number of lands that coffers ramped using Urborg. That would allow slower decks and decks that happened to stumble early to be able to keep pace with everyone else in the game. During this time, Sharuum was the main kill condition with Bitter Ordeal as the back-up, as I would time Sieve (without going infinite) for just enough attack steps to take whatever players were left on the table. My cards would keep opponent's off-balance just enough to be able to take advantage of the early general damage they incurred. Now that ST is banned, I can no-longer ensure an even playing field for everyone at the table... so it's back to business as usual.
Trading Post is a card that I have heard nothing but praise for. It seems like it will be a core of the 99, and so I am treating it as such.
Fetch Engine: The deck started off with a fetch engine and one of each basic land. Over time, I cut the basics and shrunk the land base to 35 lands, opting to run more mana rocks for better explosiveness in the early game. One issue that I would find is that by getting Crucible/ Fetch online early, it I needed to hit a land drop, I wasn't guaranteed to hit it when digging for 3 or less cards at a time. That is when I started using the bouncelands. The bouncelands would allow me to run 35 mana sources while playing as if I had 38. They allowed me to make a land drop almost every turn of the game, even if they meant coming into play tapped. they also hedged my best against Mass LD, as keeping a non-bounceland in hand ensures that I could rebuild my mana base faster than my opponents. Once Sundering Titan became a main-stay I took all lands with basic types out of the deck. At the time, with 75% of my deck not requiring a color to be played, I could play almost every card in my deck through Land Equilibrium lock or under Back To Basics, utilizing my mana rocks for my colorless mana and color filtering, and using my land drops to aid in the color filtering. Even better, that ensures that Sundering Titan didn't touch any of my lands, which was important, because threats that good would often get cloned multiple times.
Rainbow Lands: I ran 8-9 of these, but took them out as some of these and the Rav bounce-lands had originally replaced the fetch engine.
...for example, mana crypt needs to be more than a mana artifact (there have been a few lists in the group where mana crypt was a kill condition)
Yeah... Last time that happened I was rocking my Zedruu List.
Quote from BEDERNDERN »
and things like mana drain can be "not good enough". no card is safe from being cut, and nothing is a staple
I wholeheartedly agree. However, cards that have no other virtual replacement in lists tend to fall under the staple category. When that happens, one should think of whether the applications of another card would work better for the deck as a whole. There are no virtual replacements for Crucible, Workshop, Mindslaver, Blightsteel, so if these cards aren't pulling weight, consider if they have other uses. Blightsteel itself has hopped in and out of lists due to the fact that, although I rarely use it, it prevents me from decking out of the game long enough to rebuy Elixer.
Quote from BEDERNDERN »
i really would take what he has to say about sharuum to heart. hes been playing the deck forever (using just about every playable for it) and has accomplished what some would say is impossible with the deck. i honestly have never seen a more capable and knowledgeable sharuum pilot.
Thank you brother. Given you talent and your tendency for harsh critique, that means a lot. I am a procicient, but by no means an amazing player (I'm a better deck-builder), but I strive for perfect technically play, and I've been getting a lot better a minimizing mistakes. Perfect lists perform perfectly because they most minimize the margins of variance, leaving the fault of game losses resting solely on the shoulders of the pilot and the sub optimal choices he or she makes throughout the course of a game. Playing lists that punish you for mistakes has made me a better player (using my history of Bazaar Stax and my last few lists as an example).
I'm doing some errands this morning, but as soon as I get back, I'll edit my list post to include reasons for the steaks (cuts to some "Sacred Cows") in the deck.
EDIT: I just lost 1 1/2 hours of typed response due to a power surge... I'll have to do this another day.
Here is where I explain cuts to the deck's sacred cows, so without further ado...
Porterhouse (the deck's quality cuts)
Cutting Card Types - Counterspells and Answers - As you learn to squeeze the advantage out of every card in your deck, cards like Swords to Plowshares, Maze of Ith, Pact of Negation, Vindicate, which have limited use and do not feed into an engine or feedback loop of the deck, have wound up getting cut for cards that do (Even cards that can offer good utility like Engineered Explosives or Steel Hellkite come under increased scrutiny when analyzed in this way). The way cards feed into the specific engines of my deck are:
They are permanents, preferably artifact or land in card type - Meeting this requirement makes them eligible to fit themselves into multiple engines in the deck, many of them being recursive engines.
Are powerful spells which, when combined with other slots in the deck, allow me to break their symmetry while still powering my deck's engines and feedback loops - examples of this would be the use of Open the Vaults and graveyard hate, or the use of Timetwister as a way to net insane card advantage off of explosive starts but works in conjunction with Elixir of Immortality as a synergy to prevent decking (without resorting to using Eldrazi, which are just terrible for the deck) or to protect my yard when it grows too large without my consent.
Interacts with a threshold of other cards with similar and complimentary effects to maximize the probability of a specific event happening by a certain time limit - A miser's tutor here and there, and a few unfocused draw spells will not be sufficient to satisfy this requirement. You need a network of efficient and effective draw spells and tutors to make this happen, much like Vintage and Legacy combo decks (which best defines how my suite of draw effects and tutors work together to ensure that I hit X lands by turn 5, or have seen X fresh cards by turn 6). This is a philosophy that I have crafted my list with as a combo player. Optimized Sharuum decks lend themselves to be, at their core, hybridized combo lists, much like the Gifts control/combo build of Vintage between 2004 - 2006. Those Vintage Gifts decks could play the control role and switch on a dime into a combo deck when it was ready to go off. Sharuum does the same thing, but with 39 more cards in the maindeck. This is the main reason I prefer to run the strongest and most efficient suite of draw spells and tutors, and why I prefer these draw / card advantage spells over spells that simply dig. Digging is more efficient when you have smaller decks and are allowed to play muliples. You are not granted either stipulation when playing EDH.
Efficient draw spells allow you to see lots of cards. Tutors both shuffle and thin your deck. A threshold of both will ensure that the cards in hand and what's left in your library will provide you with maximum value. People abused Primeval Titan because, by tutoring the best lands into play for the given moment, you maximize the efficiency and value of the mana you need on board while scuplting the rest of your library to just give you gas for draws. Running a threshold of efficiently-interacting draw spells and tutors accomplishes the same phenomenon naturally.
Also, when analyzing answers, one needs to take a step back and realize that your deck should be able to answer problematic board cards in the following manner.
Attack it
Block it
Destroy it
Remove it
Bounce it
Steal it
Counter it
Remove its owner from the game
Offer your opponents the opportunity and incentive to take options 1-8
If your deck can't do most (if not all) of the above things in a timely fashion, the problem doesn't lie with the answers you're running, it lies in your list. Karn, Silver Golem is a great card because opens up plays that should allow you to do all but options 6 and 7 in most builds (and oftentimes, it can help you do all 8). I don't run any counterspells any of my builds, but you can counter targeted spells and effects using your utility to have the game rules counter them as state-based effects. If you want to squeeze all the advantage that piloting Sharuum can offer you, you need to have a better-than-average understanding of the game rules.
Conditional Tutors - I have cut most of the unconditional tutors in the deck due to their inefficiency to create spell-generated feedback loops to best minimize variance and best increase consistency, as detailed above. As a long-time Vintage player, I have acquired hard-to-find cards like Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Mishra's Workshop, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Bazaar of Baghdad, and other gems that allow me to tune my list as tightly as possible. I understand that these cards are expensive, and I don't even expect most Vintage players to own them so I won't preach that everyone should get them - it took me years to get them myself. However, if you are vested in the in the Vintage and/or EDH format and you have the means to acquire them without too much difficulty, then my all means please do. The will maintain their value because they are on the Reserved List. You will notice the improvement immediately. However, you will notice over time that using them also changes how and when you tutor for certain cards, and realizing these subtle changes will allow you to refine your particular list further.
Artifact Board Wipes - When I speak of board wipes, I am not speaking of using them defensively, but on offense. Of all the options available, Oblivion Stone has time-and-again been the best one. However, one great option that can leave up to 90% of your permanents unscathed is All is Dust . I've used both O-Stone and All is Dust to great effect, and interchange them both frequently. Due to the fact I am running testing cards that are more mana-intensive than their replacements, I am choosing to run with Stone. If the Sphinxes survive the first few rounds of scrutiny, then I'll see if I can graduate to the casting cost of All is Dust (They will die to this spell unlike their replacements, but that's why you are playing Sharuum).
Individual Cards
Cards that don't fall under the above criteria are discussed here below
Trinket Mage - People always call me crazy when they see this card absent from my list. The truth is, this card is a crutch that poses as a staple, than a staple that poses as a crutch. He is a narrow one-time tutor on a non-artifact body. 99% of the time, this card is played to get (in order of dependency):
Mana Acceleration - Most people play trinket mage to hit fast mana in the early game. Given the generous mulligan rules, pilots should be able to sculpt their opening hand to give them fast mana. If you rely on this card to hit fast mana and stumble when you don't hit him early, the problem wasn't that you didn't hit trinket mage: It's that you need to rework you mana base to run better mana rocks.
Sensei's Divining Top - This is a dangerous card for most players, as it promotes lazy play and inefficient use and prioritization of mana. Too many people lean on hitting Top, and while it does smooth out draws, people lean on it to dig for ideal answers and responses to problematic permanents and boardstates instead of squeezing out every inch of utility with the cards in front of them. When that occurs over the course of the game (and not just for Sharuum players) using Top takes priority over extending your natural advantages you've built your deck to give you and you start to fall behind in card quality and advantage. Once you see a player draw off a top just to replay it that same turn and peek at the top 3 cards, during consecutive turns, they have declared that they are out of gas and are free to get steamrolled with little to no reprisal... and they usually will get steamrolled as targets of opportunity.
Narrow answers - There is no response a Trinket Mage can fetch that an unconditional tutor (like Demonic Tutor or Vampiric Tutor) or a dedicated artifact tutor (like Transmute Artifact or Artificer's Intuition) can't find better, so this is a poor reason for inclusion.
As I became more familiar with the intricacies of the deck, I used this card less and less until it became apparent it was just a crutch that I no longer needed. People who have not been playing Sharuum lists until they can commit their lists to memory (non-dedicated Sharuum Pilots) will lean on him hard, but as they master the deck, his use will wane until you realize that you've forgotten to include him in an update. At that point, you'll never look back.
Magister Sphinx and Sphinx of the Steel Wind - I am currently testing both because jack from NC swears by them. Magister Sphinx replaces Blightsteel Colossus as the card that encourages diplomatic play for the table (at least until each player can start playing their game). SotSW replaces Memnarch. I had previously cut both from the deck years ago, as one incurred too many groans, and the other just didn't offer enough (I was running Sundering Titan at the time, which was the deck's primary beatstick, not this guy). I don't mind that they cost 7 and 8 respectively. I loath the triple-colored costs of them both, making them a pain in the ass to cast. In fact, my running Unburial Rites is a concession to the fact they will have to be reanimated to gain value. However, now that I am running Cavern of Souls (and understanding that it will always be set to "Sphinx"), I am re-evaluating if they can pull their weight in the abscence of Sundering Titan.
Mycosynth Lattice and Darksteel Forge - Both of these cards are artifacts that don't immediately impact the board, but many lists run. I always run 1-2 such cards in the list if the allow me to extend the reach of my engines and feedback loops. Lattice does this; Forge does not. Currently, this slot is being taken my Rings of Brighthearth. Lattice is amazing as is rings, but Rings just happens to be the flavor of the month. Decks don't need to run them, but I personally appreciate the value both Lattice and Rings can offer my specific list.
Master Transmuter - was a holdover from when my list ran Sundering Titan. This, like Spine of Ish-Shah requires the deck to include multiple targets that would greatly benefit from this effect in order to gain enough utility. I have currently replaced it with Venser, the Sojourner and I like the change.
Crystal Shard and Erratic Portal - These cards should almost never used for their defensive applications, so I'm just throwing that argument out the window and focus on their offensive uses (meaning like the Giants, not a racist) which should be to generate ETB triggers and catch sloppy players sleeping when they tap out. Both cards do this with moderate to good effect, but Tawnos's Coffin does this amazingly well, if a bit more expensively, for both your and your opponent's creatures, making the Coffin's least effective use that of a Voyager's Staff. It's rules text allows it to double up on cards that creatures with ETB effects that generate counters (like Triskelavus). I am surprised to see this card isn't more widely used.
Deck Stats
Some facts to think about when analyzing my list my list
Average CMC of deck: 1.94
Average CMC of spells: 3.03125
Average CMC of mana rocks: 1.357
64 Spells (including General)
36 lands (35 that generate mana)
49 permanents that generate mana (off 35 lands and 14 mana rocks)
24 colored spells
76 colorless spells and permanents
14 Shuffle effects
22 cogs (artifacts with CMC of 1 or less)
As you can see from the stats, the deck has a very low curve, and color screw is highly unlikely. The use of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Chromatic Lantern further decreases the likelihood of color screw further. Of the few spells that require colored mana to be played, half of them require a single colored mana to cast and/or use. This is no accident.
Feel free to post any commentary on the list. For anyone reading my posts, know that this list and the philosophies I've used to construct it, are the lens by which I view and respond to the replies on this thread.
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Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Here is where I explain cuts to the deck's sacred cows, so without further ado...
Porterhouse (the deck's quality cuts)
Cutting Card Types - Counterspells and Answers - As you learn to squeeze the advantage out of every card in your deck, cards like Swords to Plowshares, Maze of Ith, Pact of Negation, Vindicate, which have limited use and do not feed into an engine or feedback loop of the deck, have wound up getting cut for cards that do (Even cards that can offer good utility like Engineered Explosives or Steel Hellkite come under increased scrutiny when analyzed in this way). The way cards feed into the specific engines of my deck are:
They are permanents, preferably artifact or land in card type - Meeting this requirement makes them eligible to fit themselves into multiple engines in the deck, many of them being recursive engines.
Are powerful spells which, when combined with other slots in the deck, allow me to break their symmetry while still powering my deck's engines and feedback loops - examples of this would be the use of Open the Vaults and graveyard hate, or the use of Timetwister as a way to net insane card advantage off of explosive starts but works in conjunction with Elixir of Immortality as a synergy to prevent decking (without resorting to using Eldrazi, which are just terrible for the deck) or to protect my yard when it grows too large without my consent.
Interacts with a threshold of other cards with similar and complimentary effects to maximize the probability of a specific event happening by a certain time limit - A miser's tutor here and there, and a few unfocused draw spells will not be sufficient to satisfy this requirement. You need a network of efficient and effective draw spells and tutors to make this happen, much like Vintage and Legacy combo decks (which best defines how my suite of draw effects and tutors work together to ensure that I hit X lands by turn 5, or have seen X fresh cards by turn 6). This is a philosophy that I have crafted my list with as a combo player. Optimized Sharuum decks lend themselves to be, at their core, hybridized combo lists, much like the Gifts control/combo build of Vintage between 2004 - 2006. Those Vintage Gifts decks could play the control role and switch on a dime into a combo deck when it was ready to go off. Sharuum does the same thing, but with 39 more cards in the maindeck. This is the main reason I prefer to run the strongest and most efficient suite of draw spells and tutors, and why I prefer these draw / card advantage spells over spells that simply dig. Digging is more efficient when you have smaller decks and are allowed to play muliples. You are not granted either stipulation when playing EDH.
Efficient draw spells allow you to see lots of cards. Tutors both shuffle and thin your deck. A threshold of both will ensure that the cards in hand and what's left in your library will provide you with maximum value. People abused Primeval Titan because, by tutoring the best lands into play for the given moment, you maximize the efficiency and value of the mana you need on board while scuplting the rest of your library to just give you gas for draws. Running a threshold of efficiently-interacting draw spells and tutors accomplishes the same phenomenon naturally.
Also, when analyzing answers, one needs to take a step back and realize that your deck should be able to answer problematic board cards in the following manner.
Attack it
Block it
Destroy it
Remove it
Bounce it
Steal it
Counter it
Remove its owner from the game
Offer your opponents the opportunity and incentive to take options 1-8
If your deck can't do most (if not all) of the above things in a timely fashion, the problem doesn't lie with the answers you're running, it lies in your list. Karn, Silver Golem is a great card because opens up plays that should allow you to do all but options 6 and 7 in most builds (and oftentimes, it can help you do all 8). I don't run any counterspells any of my builds, but you can counter targeted spells and effects using your utility to have the game rules counter them as state-based effects. If you want to squeeze all the advantage that piloting Sharuum can offer you, you need to have a better-than-average understanding of the game rules.
Conditional Tutors - I have cut most of the unconditional tutors in the deck due to their inefficiency to create spell-generated feedback loops to best minimize variance and best increase consistency, as detailed above. As a long-time Vintage player, I have acquired hard-to-find cards like Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Mishra's Workshop, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Bazaar of Baghdad, and other gems that allow me to tune my list as tightly as possible. I understand that these cards are expensive, and I don't even expect most Vintage players to own them so I won't preach that everyone should get them - it took me years to get them myself. However, if you are vested in the in the Vintage and/or EDH format and you have the means to acquire them without too much difficulty, then my all means please do. The will maintain their value because they are on the Reserved List. You will notice the improvement immediately. However, you will notice over time that using them also changes how and when you tutor for certain cards, and realizing these subtle changes will allow you to refine your particular list further.
Artifact Board Wipes - When I speak of board wipes, I am not speaking of using them defensively, but on offense. Of all the options available, Oblivion Stone has time-and-again been the best one. However, one great option that can leave up to 90% of your permanents unscathed is All is Dust . I've used both O-Stone and All is Dust to great effect, and interchange them both frequently. Due to the fact I am running testing cards that are more mana-intensive than their replacements, I am choosing to run with Stone. If the Sphinxes survive the first few rounds of scrutiny, then I'll see if I can graduate to the casting cost of All is Dust (They will die to this spell unlike their replacements, but that's why you are playing Sharuum).
Individual Cards
Cards that don't fall under the above criteria are discussed here below
Trinket Mage - People always call me crazy when they see this card absent from my list. The truth is, this card is a crutch that poses as a staple, than a staple that poses as a crutch. He is a narrow one-time tutor on a non-artifact body. 99% of the time, this card is played to get (in order of dependency):
Mana Acceleration - Most people play trinket mage to hit fast mana in the early game. Given the generous mulligan rules, pilots should be able to sculpt their opening hand to give them fast mana. If you rely on this card to hit fast mana and stumble when you don't hit him early, the problem wasn't that you didn't hit trinket mage: It's that you need to rework you mana base to run better mana rocks.
Sensei's Divining Top - This is a dangerous card for most players, as it promotes lazy play and inefficient use and prioritization of mana. Too many people lean on hitting Top, and while it does smooth out draws, people lean on it to dig for ideal answers and responses to problematic permanents and boardstates instead of squeezing out every inch of utility with the cards in front of them. When that occurs over the course of the game (and not just for Sharuum players) using Top takes priority over extending your natural advantages you've built your deck to give you and you start to fall behind in card quality and advantage. Once you see a player draw off a top just to replay it that same turn and peek at the top 3 cards, during consecutive turns, they have declared that they are out of gas and are free to get steamrolled with little to no reprisal... and they usually will get steamrolled as targets of opportunity.
Narrow answers - There is no response a Trinket Mage can fetch that an unconditional tutor (like Demonic Tutor or Vampiric Tutor) or a dedicated artifact tutor (like Transmute Artifact or Artificer's Intuition) can't find better, so this is a poor reason for inclusion.
As I became more familiar with the intricacies of the deck, I used this card less and less until it became apparent it was just a crutch that I no longer needed. People who have not been playing Sharuum lists until they can commit their lists to memory (non-dedicated Sharuum Pilots) will lean on him hard, but as they master the deck, his use will wane until you realize that you've forgotten to include him in an update. At that point, you'll never look back.
Magister Sphinx and Sphinx of the Steel Wind - I am currently testing both because jack from NC swears by them. Magister Sphinx replaces Blightsteel Colossus as the card that encourages diplomatic play for the table (at least until each player can start playing their game). SotSW replaces Memnarch. I had previously cut both from the deck years ago, as one incurred too many groans, and the other just didn't offer enough (I was running Sundering Titan at the time, which was the deck's primary beatstick, not this guy). I don't mind that they cost 7 and 8 respectively. I loath the triple-colored costs of them both, making them a pain in the ass to cast. In fact, my running Unburial Rites is a concession to the fact they will have to be reanimated to gain value. However, now that I am running Cavern of Souls (and understanding that it will always be set to "Sphinx"), I am re-evaluating if they can pull their weight in the abscence of Sundering Titan.
Mycosynth Lattice and Darksteel Forge - Both of these cards are artifacts that don't immediately impact the board, but many lists run. I always run 1-2 such cards in the list if the allow me to extend the reach of my engines and feedback loops. Lattice does this; Forge does not. Currently, this slot is being taken my Rings of Brighthearth. Lattice is amazing as is rings, but Rings just happens to be the flavor of the month. Decks don't need to run them, but I personally appreciate the value both Lattice and Rings can offer my specific list.
Master Transmuter - was a holdover from when my list ran Sundering Titan. This, like Spine of Ish-Shah requires the deck to include multiple targets that would greatly benefit from this effect in order to gain enough utility. I have currently replaced it with Venser, the Sojourner and I like the change.
Crystal Shard and Erratic Portal - These cards should almost never used for their defensive applications, so I'm just throwing that argument out the window and focus on their offensive uses (meaning like the Giants, not a racist) which should be to generate ETB triggers and catch sloppy players sleeping when they tap out. Both cards do this with moderate to good effect, but Tawnos's Coffin does this amazingly well, if a bit more expensively, for both your and your opponent's creatures, making the Coffin's least effective use that of a Voyager's Staff. It's rules text allows it to double up on cards that creatures with ETB effects that generate counters (like Triskelavus). I am surprised to see this card isn't more widely used.
Deck Stats
Some facts to think about when analyzing my list my list
Average CMC of deck: 1.94
Average CMC of spells: 3.03125
Average CMC of mana rocks: 1.357
64 Spells (including General)
36 lands (35 that generate mana)
49 permanents that generate mana (off 35 lands and 14 mana rocks)
24 colored spells
76 colorless spells and permanents
14 Shuffle effects
22 cogs (artifacts with CMC of 1 or less)
As you can see from the stats, the deck has a very low curve, and color screw is highly unlikely. The use of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Chromatic Lantern further decreases the likelihood of color screw further. Of the few spells that require colored mana to be played, half of them require a single colored mana to cast and/or use. This is no accident.
Feel free to post any commentary on the list. For anyone reading my posts, know that this list and the philosophies I've used to construct it, are the lens by which I view and respond to the replies on this thread.
Damn man, amazing write up. I wish there was an Oona player like you for Sharuum.
Damn man, amazing write up. I wish there was an Oona player like you for Sharuum.
this is honestly commonplace amongst our group. i thought about doing write ups for a few generals, but the majority of people on these forums are so stubborn and set in their ways that they dont want to hear it, or worship a few select people on the boards, so i dont bother. this thread seems to be different... people just have a genuine love for sharuum, and have been very open to discussion and input. now if only other threads were like this....
I invited the guys over to get some games in. we wound up gaming from 3 o'clock yesterday afternoon until 4:30 in this morning. In each round of games, we had 1-2 pods of players with pods ranging between 3 and 5 people in size. The cards I were testing were:
Magister Sphinx (testing was to see how offensive this card is over its normal slot, Blightsteel Colossus). Sphinx of the Steel Wind Myr Battlesphere (has been getting tested as a stronger, more flexible Hex Parasite, another example of stretching and overlapping utility of cards).
Karn Liberated (which had been undergoing testing long before this last round of testing inclusions a few days ago)
The cards I had swapped in to help accommodate those changes were:
Chromatic Lantern - to smooth my mana Sword of the Meek / Thopter Foundry engine (Although both have been in the deck, I include this here to illustrate that I would be leaning harder on this synergy much harder than before)
The fetch-land engine Oblivion Stone (over All is Dust due to the inclusion of more colored permanents being included.. seemed like a no-brainer).
Results in the order of oldest tested to newest tested: Karn Liberated - has more than proven itself to be a worthy inclusion to the deck. In the few instances it was not relevant, it was still better than spine and at no point in time would I have wanted the spine over it (even wen there was another Karn Liberated on the table). It is the real deal. This has been consistent with testing over the last 2 months. It has earned its spot in the deck for the foreseeable future.
Myr Battlesphere - Has been proving itself over the last 3-4 weeks as a great way to contain planeswalkers on the table across multiple senarios. The idea for his inclusion was that if a player has more than one planeswalker in play, it offers me the most flexibility. For example:
If the opponent's planeswalkers are poorly defended, the tokens can swarm in past blockers and tick them down.
If the opponent has multiple planeswalkers with high starting loyalties (Karn Liberated, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, etc), I can attach into one, while using the attack trigger on Battlesphere to burn the opponent out, redirecting the damage to another planeswalker, knocking off at least 4 loyalty to the other.
If the opponent has decently-sized blockers, I can swing in with Battlesphere and still burn out the planeswalker with the method stated above.
In each instance, I can still get through to connect with a planeswalker, even if Battlesphere doesn't attack it directly. This is important because I don't have to sacrifice tempo in order to deal with them: I'm still hitting the opponent, forcing chumps, and overall still affecting the game state in a relevant way. Being how Battlesphere is an decent Sharuum target and synergized with mutiple other synergies in the deck (blink effects, Time Sieve) my thinking was that it could offer more on-board flexibility without negatively impacting the rest of the deck.
Last night, it only got to kill one planeswalker in one game (I didn't see it very often, and most of the decks I faces with the deck didn't play their planeswalkers). I attacked my opponent (and not his planeswalker) and still got to kill the planeswalker and force the chump (I killed an opposing Karn Liberated that had to -3 to remove my Tawnos's Coffin... Great "chess" play: If he targets either the Coffin or the Battlesphere, he still loses his Karn because I had mana up to use the Coffin in response... Pawn still takes Rook).
In post-game discussions over Myr Battlesphere, more than one person admitted that having Myr Battlesphere on the table did prevent them from playing their planeswalker because of their inability to defend it well or from the poor EV in using the ability once just to risk it dying. I'm still not quite sold but Battlesphere is growing on me.
Magister Sphinx - Last night, this card caused groans every time it was played, and was directly responsible for Berderndern walking off the table in disgust. Everyone knew before the games started that I was going to play it to measure how far it rated on the "politically offensive scale" and this card was a 10. I happened to draw it almost every game, and it was responsible for more player death than any other card the entire night. I just need to get some things clear here.
I would never dispute that it isn't a powerful card. Back when I used to play EDH for packs, this card was a near-auto include. Here's the social problem with Sphinx.
Someone is going to mess with your ****, and and try to justify it in a meaningful way, which of-course yo won't buy, because it's your ****. That's going to create tensions where the two of you will be hitting each other harder for the rest of the game than anyone else on the table... and that's fine.
The reason I have traditionally run Blightsteel Colossus over Sphinx as the douchebag card is because when the two of you are having a dick measuring contest on the table, the fight stays between the two of you. Blightsteel doesn't lower your opponent's life count when it hits, nor does it cripple your opponent immediately, as it doesn't have haste. This gives your opponent the chance to back the **** off.
Sphinx's ability if immediate and devastating, so even if they then want to concede to playing a normal game, the game won't be, because they have now become a target of opportunity for the rest of the table. I don't know about the rest of you, but one thing that pisses me off more than losing to someone's stupidity, is losing to someone's stupidity while avoid taking responsibility for their actions, which this card enables. So, when people ***** about Sphinx it's okay because they have a right to. If they get killed by a non-hasted Colossus (and sometimes even a hasted one), part of the fault lies with that player for not having enough blockers on the table, and/or not playing enough answers to deal with a virtually vanilla 11/11 trampler. Even if the Sphinx player doesn't kill you, the Sphinx did, because killing you while you are at 10 life is going to be the right play for someone. Sphinx affects the game state in a way that no longer becomes a 1 on 1 showdown, and that is more degrating than the potential upside of halting infinite-life shenanigans.
Last night, there was a point in a 5 player game, where there were 2 Blightsteel Colossus with the change to clone into 2 more and do you know what made the table groan: Magister Sphinx.
Sharuum players suffer the indignified wrath of entire tables when they play the deck because of that people preceive the deck to stand for. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. Jack from NC wrote in his primer write-up:
Quote from Jack from NC »
Being polite with people who are going to groan when they see your general is a must. Making friends before turns are declared will never be the incorrect play, and can sometimes earn you leeway with your plays. Doing so will also give you an opportunity to read the rest of the table and get a feel for who they are and how they’ll play. Are they smiling and laughing back? Are they stone-faced and competitive? And, more importantly, are they playing green or combo-centric generals? Make note of each point mentally, and play your opening turns accordingly. Remember, this isn’t about you-it’s about fooling the others long enough to ignore you.
I asked the question before, but I'll ask it again to Jack and everyone else chiming in on this thread. If the way you chose to play Sharuum is to play cordially, how does Magister Sphinx make the cut and how do you justify its inclusion? I play with a playgroup of almost 20 players from the NYC area. I assume you all play in a dedicated playgroup yourselves (and not solely among a bunch of Magic player that gather at a gaming store to compete for packs, because if that's the case, I've answered my own question). If this is the case, wouldn't the cat be out of the bag the moment everyone sees Sphinx hit for the first time on the table? It is for all of these reason that I play the big dumb robot, Blightsteel Colossus over Sphinx, when playing with friends. Magic players have egos, which is the reason we are driven to this game (it is a competitive game by nature and winning fulfills our need to express our self-worth and importance, and our egos drive us to build our lists the way we do, for the reasons we do... our decks are an extensions of our minds and personalities). Blightsteel Colossus kills are personal, but they don't hurt other players feeling nearly as badly as Sphinx kills.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind - This card sat on its hands the entire night. I played against the following decks:
The Pro-green / Pro-red abilties were all but useless. Foundry and M. Sphinx diminish the usefulness of its lifelink. The vigilance wasn't amazing either. The best abilities were having first strike and flying on a body, and that's only because together, they beat almost any other keyword ability on a creature with a 6-toughness (or smaller) ass not named "First Strike" or "Deathtouch". In the 8 or so games I played, this card time and again could have been something else that also would not have mattered. As with all testing lots, I'll reserve taking final actions on them until I've played 50+ games, but this has been the disappointment I expected it to be.
Trading Post - in my 8-10 games last night, I only saw it twice and only had the opportunity to play it once. However the one time I played Sharuum over TP may have been a misplay.
Fact or Fiction - play-wise the card was "meh". Socially, it is a better card than most draw spells because it's interactive, so the 30-45 second people debate over how to split the piles doesn't have masturbatory feel that spinning a top or playing a straight draw 3 or draw 5 does. Hasn't solidified its relevance over any other card draw slot yet.
[CARD]
Bazaar of Baghdad[/CARD] - disappointed that I didn't draw or have the ability to tutor for this card at all yesterday. I was really hoping to see what this card could do, but that's the nature of 100 card singleton. Unburial Rites - Its only relevance was its inclusion in an Intuition pile with Sharuum (who had been tucked) and Phyrexian Metamorph . In this situation, I could have searched for a Jack of Spades and combo-ed off.
The fetch engine eased the tougher mana requirements as expected. Games didn't drag on, so I never felt like I was missing too many land drops.
Oblivion Stone - is getting replaced by All is Dust immediately. Even with running both Sphinxes, the deck still makes more than enough mana to cast this 7-drop and there were times that extra mana for the O-stone pop cost the table games that All is Dust could have won. My mana concerns turned out to be unwarranted.
Chromatic Lantern was an all-star last night, and was easily recognized as being stronger than Coalition relic and Thran Dynamo in this specific list. I will be looking to hunt down a foil one.
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
There's a serious wealth of information here thanks to Jostin123. If it's perfectly okay with you Jostin, I'd like to add what you have wrote here to the primer. I understand if you want to keep your list to yourself, but the other information you have here is particularly invaluable to making the list better, and I feel it's contribution to the OP specifically would be of great importance to anyone hoping to build the list. If that's okay, I'll proceed with it this afternoon.
Sorry for not getting a chance to respond everyone-I've been busy with work and school, trying to get caught up before my trip to the GP this weekend. Coincidentally, I did some testing of my own-I removed Vindicate from the list in favor of Aether Spellbomb, and as Jostin said, the value from having options with the card was far better than the value I got from Vindicate.
Karn Liberated was likewise a great inclusion over Spine for all the same reasons.
I see precisely what Jostin123 is saying about Trinket Mage...and it makes a lot of sense considering we've got Artificer's Intuition, which promotes synergy within the list and accomplishes what TM does without taking up another slot. I'm going to move forward with cutting it.
Sphinx OTSW has always been an all-star for me, but typically takes on a last-resort role. I typically find myself paired against a lot of voltron RG generals, and if they happen to get an advantage over me, I grab Sphinx OTSW and sit behind her until I'm able to combo out. I will admit she's more of a meta-game choice than perhaps anything else in the list, though I've never been disappointed to topdeck/tutor her elsewhere. She could be cut for an acceptable solution, like Myr Battlesphere. Likewise, Myr Battlesphere works nicely with Momentary Blink/Aether Spellbomb/ Voyager Staff. Do you like shenanigans? I most certainly do.
All is Dust is the only other sweeper I would consider acceptable within the list, as it gives us the least amount of drawback. I've had success with Austere Command as well, but being able to maintain proper board position while sweeping relevant threats seems next level.
Magister Sphinx-this is a tricky topic. While I advocate playing the deck as politically neutral as possible, MS sticks out like a sore thumb in even the most seasoned playgroups. I've included MS as a way of bringing finality to tight games. I tutor/use him when there's one man left at the table, or as a means of keeping a particularly dominating player in check. And you're right, Jostin-it's the punk way to win. It's a punk way to swing the game around, and in decks like this, it is on par with Worldfire and Sway of the Stars in terms of dickbaggery. Yet there's absolutely nothing like it when you want to end a game immediately. I use it as sparingly as possible, and try to avoid letting anyone know it's even in the list (a seemingly impossible task, considering the amount of attention this primer and Sharuum get). It's quite possibly the most politically offensive card in the entire deck, even more than Sharuum herself. But on the list of cards I'd cut, it's so far at the bottom that it's almost unthinkable.
However, as with absolutely everything else you've said thus far, I agree whole heartedly with your reasoning behind running Blightsteel-though I am curious what your thoughts are on similar options, like Inkwell Leviathan. While dealing 40 damage to the table is a lot easier than 120 or more (thinking total life points here), Blightsteel has often ate removal at my table, and like Primeval Titan, turned games into a question of who could answer/steel it first. Inkwell avoids those problems (well, outside of things like Bribery) and has a respectable body to boot.
Regarding your post on Roar of Rec over Yawg's Win: The ratio of artifacts in your list (specifically the availability of things like LED) makes Roar a much better inclusion. You're correct in that overall it's CMC will be less than a respectable turn with Yawg win, but I prefer the versatility that YawgWin offers me. Getting able to reuse conditional tutors, the card filtering spells in my list, and more has made YawgWin an auto-include for me. Roar is STILL an amazing card that is well suited in your list, and the Control/Goodstuffz variants I've mentioned several times in this thread. Not to mention it's a great budget alternative to both Yawgwin and Open The Vaults, if people are REALLY cheap.
Thank you again for taking the time to post here, and educate myself and others on your playstyle and card selection. I'm quite serious when I say you've gotten me actively brewing and tweaking the deck again-something that didn't look like it was going to happen until MTG had another artifact block. I greatly appreciate your contribution, and look forward to seeing how some of your choices work out for me in the GP this weekend.
Speaking of which, is anyone making it out to GP Charleston? Chewie and I will be there fri-sunday gunslinging!
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There's a serious wealth of information here thanks to Jostin123. If it's perfectly okay with you Jostin, I'd like to add what you have wrote here to the primer. I understand if you want to keep your list to yourself, but the other information you have here is particularly invaluable to making the list better, and I feel it's contribution to the OP specifically would be of great importance to anyone hoping to build the list. If that's okay, I'll proceed with it this afternoon.
.
I apologize for not getting back on this sooner. Work and family concerns have kept me busy this week. Sandy has taken a toll on both....
As for using my feedback, I give my permission: It's all good. This thread has a high density of relevent information and experience, which shines through with most of the responses and questions, which is what compelled me to add my 2 cents. I really do appreciate the fact that you asked: in the age of net-decking, this is a rare occurrence, and is another sign that you sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
Thank you again for taking the time to post here, and educate myself and others on your playstyle and card selection. I'm quite serious when I say you've gotten me actively brewing and tweaking the deck again-something that didn't look like it was going to happen until MTG had another artifact block. I greatly appreciate your contribution, and look forward to seeing how some of your choices work out for me in the GP this weekend.
That just made me smile :). When lists get so tight that improvements seem unlikely, interest can get stale. There have been months at a time where I haven't played the deck because I just didn't feel the need to. When I play Sharuum, I don't pick it up because I enjoy comboing out or spitting out play-after-play of rediculousness. I do so because sometimes, fun for me is being able to pick up a deck and pilot it at an extremely high level of competence, and the challenge isn't to win the table, but to play a perfect technical game of Magic (something that has only happened like twice in my 18 or 19 years of playing the game). I refuse to cut any of the cards I'm testing until I've played an exhaustive number of games because I don't just want to see if the cards are good. Sometimes, you need to understand nuances of their applications. It took me almost a year to understand how to properly use Bazaar of Baghdad in Vintage Bazzar-Stax, a card that I pushed very hard for inclusion, but I understood at the time that my game losses at the time didn't come from Bazaar, but how I used it. I promise to give you updates when I've made my decisions.
Speaking of which, is anyone making it out to GP Charleston? Chewie and I will be there fri-sunday gunslinging!
I won't be there... it's been a long time since I've played for a seat on the gravy train. After college, and now that I'm building my career, I mostly play Vintage tournaments now. But, if you ever come to an event in the NY/NJ area, let me know. I would love to get a game with 'ya. Good luck with school, and if you'd like me to provide resources for anything regarding my list, building concepts, decks I've referenced... anything, just PM me and let me know.
All the best,
Jostin
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the problem with magister sphinx (what caused me to walk off the table at one point in the night) is that it was being used as a crutch. if it was not an early combo win, you played the sphinx plan.
those are the type of cards i dont like, as they make the deck more linear, predictable and weaken you as a player. besides the fact it is horribly unfair, the card is just not good for developing your game as a player. it is the same thing as primeval titan (in the sense of being a crutch). when titan was in the format, manabases were terrible. they were stretched so thin becasue the list either ran titan, or abused an opposing titan, and thats not good for your game as it weakens your skills in designing a proper manabase (as opposed to a greedy titan manabase). its pretty much the same thing with magister sphinx. you can have all the shoddy play in the world, as long as you hit sphinx...your golden. you can just have a bad game with no live cards...except for sphinx, and your golden. it is a card that idiot proofs your game and has no place in the format (because of its ridiculous ability).
I think what differentiates Sphinx from something like PT is the risk involved to the player casting it. Sure, your PT might get stolen, copied, or reanimated, but not before it gets you Urborg/Coffers or whatever. In at least half the games that my Sphinx hits the field, it gets copied next turn, and guess who eats the trigger? Me, because I'm the jerk who played Magister Sphinx. Which is totally fair. So yeah, I've made the game very scary for one other player, but I've also taken the (significant) risk that MY life total is also going to be 10 very, very soon. It's a gamble, and certainly not an auto-win. Its political offensiveness has always struck me as a bit of an overreaction.
the problem with magister sphinx (what caused me to walk off the table at one point in the night) is that it was being used as a crutch. if it was not an early combo win, you played the sphinx plan.
I actually didn't play the Sphinx plan. I literally saw Sphinx every game. Some games I even threw it back from the opening hand and re-drew it. what made the games lopsided was that I also saw Artificer's intuition in half of my games. The specific game you're talking about, I sucked my teeth 'cuz and laughed over the stupidity of it. It was I game where I threw the sphinx and Karn liberated back with with the partial paris mulligan, drew a mana rock and the artificer's intuition, rifle shuffled the rest away, cut the deck 5 times, and rifle shuffled again. Mike cuts my deck, and what's the card I drew on my second turn... Sphinx. It would be my only relevent line of play for the next 2 turns (until I drew Mind's Eye). I only saw Trading posts in 2 games that night, and didn't once see Bazaar. I was looking to test multiple cards, and didn't see an even spread of them on Sunday.
Quote from Berderndern »
those are the type of cards i dont like, as they make the deck more linear, predictable and weaken you as a player. besides the fact it is horribly unfair, the card is just not good for developing your game as a player. it is the same thing as primeval titan (in the sense of being a crutch). when titan was in the format, manabases were terrible. they were stretched so thin becasue the list either ran titan, or abused an opposing titan, and thats not good for your game as it weakens your skills in designing a proper manabase (as opposed to a greedy titan manabase). its pretty much the same thing with magister sphinx. you can have all the shoddy play in the world, as long as you hit sphinx...your golden. you can just have a bad game with no live cards...except for sphinx, and your golden. it is a card that idiot proofs your game and has no place in the format (because of its ridiculous ability).
This is the reason I despise Sensei's Divining Top. However, this is also the reason I would 100% play both Top and Sphinx if we were playing in a league for packs, like the guys and I used to. I wasn't testing the sphinx to see if it was good, it was to see if it would piss people off more than top, which it did. You're reaction that game and your response now further shows that this card is indeed more flagrant an offender than Blightsteel.
I think what differentiates Sphinx from something like PT is the risk involved to the player casting it. Sure, your PT might get stolen, copied, or reanimated, but not before it gets you Urborg/Coffers or whatever. In at least half the games that my Sphinx hits the field, it gets copied next turn, and guess who eats the trigger? Me, because I'm the jerk who played Magister Sphinx. Which is totally fair. So yeah, I've made the game very scary for one other player, but I've also taken the (significant) risk that MY life total is also going to be 10 very, very soon. It's a gamble, and certainly not an auto-win. Its political offensiveness has always struck me as a bit of an overreaction.
To be fair, in one of the games where I also drew into an early Sphinx, I called that before I got to my turn, the entire table would be at 10... and that's exactly what happened (I'm not sure if that was the same game as the game we were talking about above, it might have been.) It got killed and reanimated, cloned, and then metamorphed. I know I didn't win that game, but took 2 players off the table.
Now, when we head over to Long Island, if we play with those guys that came over from Game Table, I will make sure that Sphinx comes down on their ass faster than a Leyline... I owe them a swift departure. Some people just don't understand the concept of playing a civil game. My last time at the warehouse, one guy in particular asked me to play an "toned-down" deck, and then proceeds to take 20 minutes to masturbate long enough to find the cards to combo the table on turn 5, and then says it's getting late and has to take his friend home. Sharuum's been cleaning out her shotgun ever since, and that's the reason why I started playing her as frequesntly again. No post-highschool juvenille who frequents that store is going enjoy a game of EDH at the warehouse while I'm sitting at their table. You come into our "house" and proceed to disgust your hosts. Call me bitter, call me a jack***, call it what you want. I just don't have the patience for nonsense like that.
And one lone trooper way on the other side of the country.
Jack, I was looking over the primer a bit, and I found a mistake. You state, in the combos section, that Salvaging Station + ThopterSword combo + Lotus Bloom is an infinite mana combo, when (as far as I can tell) it isn't. Station requires something dying, and I don't see anything letting you get more than 6 mana from it.
I also thought of another infinite mana combo, involving the infinite Sharuum-Clone loop, Station, and one of the Lotus' (either petal or bloom). The Sharuum loop creates infinite dying triggers, thus infinite untaps of Station. Use station to recur a used Lotus, sac it, use the untap trigger, sac it... Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
I also thought of another infinite mana combo, involving the infinite Sharuum-Clone loop, Station, and one of the Lotus' (either petal or bloom). The Sharuum loop creates infinite dying triggers, thus infinite untaps of Station. Use station to recur a used Lotus, sac it, use the untap trigger, sac it... Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
It's funny... The majority of my wins with Time Sieve didn't come from Thopter / Sword combo, but from Karn animating 1 drops, that I then sac to Tme Sieve, and stacking Salvaging Station triggers to get them back.
The deck offers so many lines of play... It truly is a pleasure to pilot.
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I hope all of you had a wonderful holiday weekend. The GP was a blast-I restructured the list to fit some of our discussion points. The OP needs a mammoth update-both that AND news from the GP (with testing results) will be up likely tonight or tomorrow, depending on when I can break away for a minute.
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Actual Truth:
"You heard it here folks:
Anyone who disagrees with "Jack from NC" is an idiot."-The Dead Weatherman
Good morning everyone!
College is finally winding down for the semester, and I’m starting to get some free time. I’ve been overhauling the OP all morning long-expect an update on it TODAY when I get off from work (some time after 5 PM US EST).
Like I said the other day, I restructured my personal list the night before GP Charleston to fit some of the suggestions Jostin123 and others have made. I’ll save the entire list for the OP, but here are a few of the major cuts I made-and new inclusions:
OUT:
Yawgmoth’s Will
Mystical Tutor
Vindicate
Reshape
Trinket Mage
IN:
Detention Sphere
Venser (Planeswalker)
Elixir of Immortality
All is Dust
(random other card I can’t currently remember, probably Mindslaver)
That might only be 4 cards, but it’s quite a shake up, considering I’ve used YW, MT, Vindicate and Reshape for 5 years in the list, without EVER cutting them. The new inclusions all have their own merits, so I’ll go over them right quick:
1. Detention Sphere: This is the same speed as Vindicate, but has the potential for multiple uses thanks to Open the Vaults and Venser. This coupled with costing only three mana (!) means that we’ll have a scalable solution to meet our needs. Granted, it’s more “delicate” than Vindicate-but with the chance to recycle it, that’s largely irrelevant.
2. Venser: I’m not a fan of planeswalkers. But my personal bias should not come into play when we’re creating this list as a community, not an individual. Jostin123’s commentary on why planeswalkers and similarly versatile cards are valuable to decks like this finally sunk in with me when I realized I wanted a card that could untap mana rocks, blink our creatures, AND make Detention Sphere nuts. He’s also another walking target for hate-which is far more valuable than you’d think. I like this guy. I like him a lot.
3. All is Dust: This gives my list 3 virtual sweepers, all scalable and advantageous to our needs. I might be alone here, but heavy board sweep has won me more games than comboing off. The 7 CMC is irrelevant when over half our deck is colorless and we’re using the best mana rocks/producers available.
4. Elixir of Immortality: Alright, so this one looks a bit nutty, I know. But hear me out-I’ve mentioned on here and Twitter that I was looking for a card that would enable us to recycle tutors, artifacts and others en-masse. This card fits the bill better than Yawg’s win does. Yawg’s win is an obviously powerful card, but works better in lists where you’re using low CMC mana producers, card draw and tutors-think something like Reanimator or CMDR Storm (which I also attempted this month). Considering we can tutor for this much easier than we could Yawg’s Win, AND the fact it works more synergistically with our deck, I feel Elixir has earned it’s place in the deck for at least a while.
I’m fairly sure that’s everything-I’ve not got my exact deck list in front of me, so be expecting edits to this post (or just look for them in the OP).
As for testing from the GP-
It didn’t happen. Well, not at the scale I wished for.
I was gunslinging at GP Charleston for roughly 18-20 hours total Friday through Sunday. I played roughly 200 games of MTG (or slightly more) during that time. Out of 200 games, I figure I played less than 10 games of CMDR during that entire period. Most people asked to play Standard, or Modern (surprisingly). I had a few requests for legacy, and got in two games of pauper (which was incredibly entertaining, and has me itching to play the format on MTGO). Of the CMDR games I played, I figure I played Gaddock Teeg over half of the time, as Teeg was much better suited against an unknown meta (it’s literally hate and removal. I was shocked at how well it worked. TAX THEM TO DEATH, I SAY!) If anyone is interested, I’ll likely be making a thread for Gaddock Teeg as well soon. Hit me up via PM and I’ll send you the list.
Disappointing, I know. But them’s the breaks.
However, I have gotten in quite a bit of testing since then. Overall, I’ve found the planeswalkers (Karn especially) to be great additions to the list, as they’re versatile answers to MANY problems the deck has. The most aggravating thing about them though is the potential for their theft against Ux based lists-I lost two games in a row because someone cast Thieve’s Auction and the split-second possession spell on Karn.
At first not having Trinket Mage, Mystical Tutor and Yawg’s Will was awkward. Then I realized they were unnecessary, added nothing to the deck, or I had been using them improperly this entire time. Then I felt realllllly silly for ever having used them. There are random moments when Mystical Tutor would be really helpful, but not enough for me to miss it.
Overall, I like the direction the decklist is heading. It feels more interactive than before, and there are less derpy moments than there used to be in goldfishing and actual practice. It hums, and that couldn’t have been accomplished without the help and aid of everyone here. Thank you, all of you. Seriously, you guys are great, and are the only reason I return to MTGS (outside of trolling).
@kay-hine: HISS, N. DISK! I’ve always found that card to be too slow. Any particular reason you’re running it since you’ve not got Darksteel Forge to make it crazy?
…You know, Animate Dead would be a hell of a lot better than Reanimate in my current list. Especially since Venser is in there to blink it. Hrm.
How is Karn performing?
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A quality post. Even more so since I've got Karn sitting in my binder, unused and unloved. I picked him up for a mono-black deck that never happened (mostly because MB is terrible), and have yet to find a serious use for him. I've just a personal bias against using PWs unless they REALLY add something to the list-a silly thing, I know. But I try to avoid using them as much as possible in every deck I make.
But, versatility reigns supreme when you're trying to make the best list possible. The only argument I can make here in favor of spine is it's ability to interact with our recursion suite. I'd like to get some more testing in before trying out Karn-which I might get in tonight.
Karn also can restart games. Hello baaaaaaaaaaabbby.
Aether Spellbomb is a quality card I've tried desperately to fit into the list for some time. I'm hesitant about what to cut in favor of it though. Let's pour over the list and see what I can take out...
EDIT: @Secularon: Because planeswalkers.
DOUBLE EDIT: The only thing I could see cutting would be Engineered Explosives because of it's variable use. It's much stronger when you know what the meta is going to look like, weaker when you're playing abroad. All the same, it's still a "decent" to "****ing amazing" problem solver, if a bit fat.
theoretically speaking, any "real" problematic cards within the 3 CMC and lower range can likely be handled by cards we're already packing (Spine, Karn, Dispellers/executioner's capsule, vindicate/STP). Many of those options are also easily tutored. Pithing Needle is in a similar predicament, but gets far more use than EE ever has. As I've said in other threads, it's a one-mana problem solver.
The amount of times EE is a bust exceeds the number of times it's amazing. It's in kind of the same place Mindslaver is, but I've played it a hell of a lot more. It could be cut, possibly for Aether Spellbomb...or something else.
I'd like to stick with low CMC solution-artifacts.
Thoughts?
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Actual Truth:
I'm usually reanimating Kederkt Leviathan, casting Riftsweeper, or Miracling Devastation Tide to Take care of PW's along with everything else. The only bad side is it bounces our stuff too.
I used to run Mindslaver, but I'm just a fan of combos that kill everyone. Not one shots like Void and Helm, or anything else of that nature. The natural combo for Sharrum is just so strong, it seems good enough to just run sculting, Metamorph, Disciple and gravestorm.....call it a day there. And do everything else to disrupt. Although that can get boring, it seems really efficient.
Engineered Explosives is an answer, not a threat. As such, I can't speak for possible replacements until I get a sense for the kind of permanents you are trying to answer, especially since I try to steer away from answers in my list, only running the ones that are absolutely necessary (dispeller's & executioner's capsules, O-Stone (which I've interchange with All is Dust frequently), or those have some kind of offensive applications (duplicant Karn PW, Timetwister, Ensnaring Bridge, Tawnos's Coffin).
I don't run Swords, Vindicate, EE, & Pithing Needle. I don't run Will (which is the first Sacred Cow I've slayed, which from comparing out lists is where I have the space for Roar of Reclamation). Unlike Vintage, our Yawg Will is almost always relegates itself to rebuilding the board and not spelling the end of the game the moment it resolves. RoR and Open the vaults act as combo pieces, which function like will, end up costing less than Will, and leaves my artifacts untapped to continue the shenanigans. They can act as answers, but have offensive (and not just defensive) applications.
I don't purposely try to run them, but planeswalkers have made their way into the deck as a function of my creed on lists - playing threats over answers. The above discussion between Karn and Spine is just one example. I was surprised to glance over my list and see that I run four starting with Tez the Seeker, then Venser, then Tez
SoBAoB, and the fourth and newest being Karn. but I can say that they have all been flexible, efficient, and are legitimate threats. Every ability on each one of them is extremely relevant to the deck, even the "weak ones"Have only pulled it off twice in the history of EDH... don't expect it to happen often.
Planeswalkers are versatile. They do not belong in every deck that has the colors to support them, but in my opinion, replacing a sorcery or instant with a planeswalker that will give you that effect and then some is a no-brainer.
If you want, I can post my list on this thread. I am testing some of the slots you swear by. I really don't like Magister Sphinx* (although I will admit it is unfair... like having Steve Jobs sitting next to you feeding you answers to your S.A.T.'s unfair: David Beckham kicking-you-in-the-junk wrong ) or Sphinx of the Steel Wind over Blightsteel (which I will still use when playing people outside of my group, as strangers don't quite understand the concept of diplomacy). However, due to my use of Cavern of Souls, I am giving them another shot.
I am also testing Trading Post, which I have recently acquired and many swear by. I'm itching to see if it's as nutty as people say it is.
Lastly, I retooled by artifact and land mana base to accommodate a 36th land, Bazaar of Baghdad. I'm testing it, and as soon as the Sandy recovery allows my boys and I some time to sling, I'll let you know how it performs. The Parks and Sanitation departments here in the city have been overworked due to the storm and the subsequent damage.
* Just thought about it... you don't like playing offensive cards (offensive like George Carlin, not the Miami Heat) cards. Why is Magister Sphinx in your list if that's the case?
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Trading Post is pretty good, imho. I had someone comment on why I kept bringing it back with my academy ruins over other things. It's, among other things, a second ruins that brings to hand instead of the top of the library, as well as an emergency blocker, card draw, and life-gain. It also works well with Foundry and Salvaging station, using the tokens for recurring artifacts and drawing cards, and station can let you sacrifice a cheap artifact for a card, then return it for another use.
You bring up good points, however. I'm going to look at my list to see what I can cut for Karn and Venser.
BRG [T2] Jund Midrange GRB
W [Modern] Mono-White Control W
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
jostin is part of a group with a very radical style of deck building. in our group, synergy is needed over raw power to maximize every single draw, because games can end (or you could be eliminated) at ANY given point in time (and when the games turn into a grindfest, you need to compound as many advantages as you can). for example, mana crypt needs to be more than a mana artifact (there have been a few lists in the group where mana crypt was a kill condition) and things like mana drain can be "not good enough". no card is safe from being cut, and nothing is a staple.
i really would take what he has to say about sharuum to heart. hes been playing the deck forever (using just about every playable for it) and has accomplished what some would say is impossible with the deck. i honestly have never seen a more capable and knowledgeable sharuum pilot.
trading post is something i have been pushing him to test. it looks really good on paper, and should perform just as good as it looks. there are so many cards and effects that interact with it in a stock list that i cannot see it under performing in a more optimized list.
I'm very interested in seeing your list as well.
Artifact Creatures (8)
(4) Phyrexian Metamorph
(5) Kudoltha Forgemaster
(5) Karn, Silver Golem
(6) Sharuum the Hegemon
(6) Duplicant
(7) Magister Sphinx*
(7) Myr Battlephere*
(8) Sphinx of the Steel Wind*
Mana Rocks - 14
(0) Lion's eye Diamond
(0) Mox Opal
(0) Mox Diamond
(0) Mana Crypt
(0) Lotus Petal
(0) Lotus Bloom
(1) Mana Vault
(1) Sol Ring
(2) Grim Monolith
(2) Dimir Signet
(2) Azorius Signet
(3) Darksteel Ingot
(3) Chromatic Lantern**
(5) Gilded Lotus
Draw Spells - 6
(3) Thirst for Knowledge
(3) Windfall
(3) Timetwister
(4) Fact or Fiction*
(5) Memory Jar
(5) Mind's Eye
Tutors - 7
(1) Entomb
(1) Expedition Map
(1) Vampiric Tutor
(2) Artificer's Intuition
(2) Demonic Tutor
(2) Transmute Artifact
(3) Intuition
Planeswalkers - 4
(4) Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
(5) Tezerret the Seeker
(5) Venser, the Sojourner
(7) Karn Liberated*
Utility Artifacts - 20
(0) Tormod's Crypt*
(1) Aether Spellbomb
(1) Dispeller's Capsule
(1) Elixer of Immortality
(1) Executioner's Capsule
(1) Nihil Spellbomb
(1) Sensei's Divining Top
(1) Voltaic Key
(1) Voyager's Staff
(2) Sword of The Meek**
(2) Thopter Foundry**
(2) Time Sieve
(3) Crucible of Worlds
(3) Ensnaring Bridge
(3) Rings of Brighthearth
(3) Sculpting Steel
(4) Tawnos's Coffin
(4) Trading Post**
(6) Mindslaver
(6) Salvaging Station
Other Sorceries - 5
(3) Bitter Ordeal
(5) Unburial Rites*
(6) Open the Vaults
(7) All is Dust
(7) Roar of Reclamation
Lands - 36
Fetch Engine** - 9
Flooded Strand
Godless Shrine
Hallowed Fountain
Marsh Flats
Polluted Delta
Scrubland
Tundra
Underground Sea
Watery Grave
Mana Acceleration - 4
Ancient Tomb
Crystal Vein
Gemstone Cavern
Mishra's Workshop
Artifact Lands - 4
Ancient Den
Darksteel Citadel
Seat of the Synod
Vault of Whispers
Rainbow Lands** - 5
City of Brass
Command Tower
Glimmervoid
Reflecting Pool
Tarnished Citadel
Mana Fixing - 4
Fetid Heath
Mystic Gate
Sunken Ruins
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Utility Lands - 10
Academy Ruins
Bazaar of Baghdad*
Buried Ruin
Cavern of Souls
Cephalid Coliseum
Inkmoth Nexus
Petrified Field
Phyrexia's Core
Strip Mine
Wasteland
* Denotes testing slots for the deck
** Denotes natural updates for the deck
My Bio:
Deck Building Methods and Philosophy
Dispeller's Capsule, Time Sieve, Thopter Foundry, Trading Post, or a Karn, Silver Golem activation in conjunction with Executioner's Capsule, Voyager's Staff, Aether Spellbomb, will all address this solution, while creating triggers or board changes that will feed many other synergies in this deck. Top can cheat extra draws with Voltaic Key and Rings, when animated and targeted by Coffin, or when animated.. sacked.. and revived by Salvaging Station. And, each of the other mentioned cards above all work with multiple other engines and feedback loops in the deck.
The same way that a tutors, draw spells, and card filtering in a combo deck create a system of feedback loops within a respectable curve to siphon a threshold of Dark rituals, kill conditions, and lethal storm count for a tendrils kill; each card in your deck should feed itself into as many systems as possible, at as many points in the game as possible (taking your curve into account), to create a machine that will consistently churn synergies to carry you into a win. The easier a combo deck accomplishes this, the more balanced the deck is. If you find that this same deck is very draw dependent, or that it is not "going off" consistently when going through the motions, the deck is not balanced and needs more tinkering.
Magister's Sphinx - replacing Blightsteel Colossus. This slot used to be occupied by Sundering Titan until its banning. My group hates both Sphinx and Blightsteel, but has a little more ire for the Sphinx. Because its a Sphinx, Cavern of Souls gets slightly more useful. People on these boards swear by it though, so I will try it again, but won't be surprised if I take it out, as it doesn't suit my play-style and drastically ups the deck's reliance on colored mana.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind - Replacing Master Transmuter. Transmuter was a holdover from when I used to play Sundering Titan, and lost a lot of value when that Titan got banned. I never liked this Sphinx outside of Vintage, as I feel it doesn't do enough to end games, feeling that the best ability is First Strike, being able to deny lifegain and death-touch during combat. I also don't like the triple colored casting cost on this guy.
Myr Battlesphere - Don't remember what got cut.
He's always a solid blink / reanimation target. With the abscence of Sundering Titan to slow down games for the rest of the table, Thopter Foundry has become the best go-to threat the deck can offer. This guy can fire off a Time Sieve activation on his own without Foundry help, as has a pretty decently sized ass. The main reason I'm testing him though, is to see how effective he is as planeswalker control. The attack trigger deals damage to the defending player, which can then be redirected to the planeswalker, but he still gets the power bonus to hit the opponent (or another planeswalker) with. Of all the niche cards I'm testing, I expect this one to be the most versatile.
Fact or Fiction - replacing Compulsive Research. I love CR as a draw spell, but now that I have cut the bouncelands and some Rainbow Lands for the Fetch engine (which was also a hold-over from running Sundering Titan), I know I can't guarantee that I will have, or will want to pitch a land to CR. It wasn't a problem when I was running the Rav. bounce-lands.
Karn Liberated - replacing Spine of Ish-Shah.
Read my post at the top of page 8 for my explanation.
Tormod's Crypt - replacing Bojuka Bog.
This deck needed another GY Removal effect. I ran the Bouncelands and Dromar's Caver specifically to buyback Bojuka Bog (Dromar's Cavern was fantastic in that deck). This deck needs multiple ways to cut Eldrazi off before the late game, and it gets a whole lot better because I run both Timewister and Time Spiral in the deck. As I mentioned earlier to Jack from NC, I prefer card draw over card filtering. Not only are they both amazing card draw spells, but they allow me to protect me from overextending my yard into the infinate GY removal effects that are run in my group, and hardly anyone ever counters one of these. Crypting a player in response to firing one of these off is a great way to proactively eliminate utility cards and lines of play from your opponent.
Unburial Rites - in due to balancing both Sphinxes into the deck for testing.
Both Sphinxes cost a lot of colored mana, and the last thing a person should do is answer that with a spell that will cost you more colored mana, but that's what I'm doing here. Obviously I'm not going to want to pay 7 most times that I want to play these, so I'll have to cheat them into play. This gets the nod over Reanimate solely due to having flashback. If I cut the Sphinxes, this is card is going back to being my coffee mug coaster. I hate playing things as a necessary evil, but you need to have the training wheels on a bike on order to see how it will perform under optimal conditions.
Bazaar of Baghdad - New inclusion I'm testing.
This deck obviously want to mill, so intuitively, you'd think this deserves a spot. I'm going to see if that's true. Baing how my deck's state of mana sources to non-mana sources was 50/50, in order to accomodate this, I had to cut an artifact for the Mana Rock slot, the BW signet, and make adjustments to lower the overall CMC of the deck and increase my Mana fixing just to make the testing more suitable for this manaless land taking up a land slot slot. I'm hoping it's worth the extra work.
Changes due to Deck Upgrades (denoted by **)
Sword of The Meek/Thopter Foundry: During
my last major overhaul, I cut this cute duo as I very rarely relied on it to win. During my list's Sundering Titan era, Sundering Titan would slow down games for those GBx decks that would Primeval out ridiculous amounts of ramp. I'd blow off multiple duals, neutering coffers not by destroying Urborg, but reducing the number of lands that coffers ramped using Urborg. That would allow slower decks and decks that happened to stumble early to be able to keep pace with everyone else in the game. During this time, Sharuum was the main kill condition with Bitter Ordeal as the back-up, as I would time Sieve (without going infinite) for just enough attack steps to take whatever players were left on the table. My cards would keep opponent's off-balance just enough to be able to take advantage of the early general damage they incurred. Now that ST is banned, I can no-longer ensure an even playing field for everyone at the table... so it's back to business as usual.
Trading Post is a card that I have heard nothing but praise for. It seems like it will be a core of the 99, and so I am treating it as such.
Fetch Engine: The deck started off with a fetch engine and one of each basic land. Over time, I cut the basics and shrunk the land base to 35 lands, opting to run more mana rocks for better explosiveness in the early game. One issue that I would find is that by getting Crucible/ Fetch online early, it I needed to hit a land drop, I wasn't guaranteed to hit it when digging for 3 or less cards at a time. That is when I started using the bouncelands. The bouncelands would allow me to run 35 mana sources while playing as if I had 38. They allowed me to make a land drop almost every turn of the game, even if they meant coming into play tapped. they also hedged my best against Mass LD, as keeping a non-bounceland in hand ensures that I could rebuild my mana base faster than my opponents. Once Sundering Titan became a main-stay I took all lands with basic types out of the deck. At the time, with 75% of my deck not requiring a color to be played, I could play almost every card in my deck through Land Equilibrium lock or under Back To Basics, utilizing my mana rocks for my colorless mana and color filtering, and using my land drops to aid in the color filtering. Even better, that ensures that Sundering Titan didn't touch any of my lands, which was important, because threats that good would often get cloned multiple times.
Rainbow Lands: I ran 8-9 of these, but took them out as some of these and the Rav bounce-lands had originally replaced the fetch engine.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Great write up and thre list looks amazing.
I'm also sigging this because it is the best way I've ever heard to describe a tuned magic deck.
Yeah... Last time that happened I was rocking my Zedruu List.
I wholeheartedly agree. However, cards that have no other virtual replacement in lists tend to fall under the staple category. When that happens, one should think of whether the applications of another card would work better for the deck as a whole. There are no virtual replacements for Crucible, Workshop, Mindslaver, Blightsteel, so if these cards aren't pulling weight, consider if they have other uses. Blightsteel itself has hopped in and out of lists due to the fact that, although I rarely use it, it prevents me from decking out of the game long enough to rebuy Elixer.
Thank you brother. Given you talent and your tendency for harsh critique, that means a lot. I am a procicient, but by no means an amazing player (I'm a better deck-builder), but I strive for perfect technically play, and I've been getting a lot better a minimizing mistakes. Perfect lists perform perfectly because they most minimize the margins of variance, leaving the fault of game losses resting solely on the shoulders of the pilot and the sub optimal choices he or she makes throughout the course of a game. Playing lists that punish you for mistakes has made me a better player (using my history of Bazaar Stax and my last few lists as an example).
I'm doing some errands this morning, but as soon as I get back, I'll edit my list post to include reasons for the steaks (cuts to some "Sacred Cows") in the deck.
EDIT: I just lost 1 1/2 hours of typed response due to a power surge... I'll have to do this another day.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Cutting Card Types -
Counterspells and Answers - As you learn to squeeze the advantage out of every card in your deck, cards like Swords to Plowshares, Maze of Ith, Pact of Negation, Vindicate, which have limited use and do not feed into an engine or feedback loop of the deck, have wound up getting cut for cards that do (Even cards that can offer good utility like Engineered Explosives or Steel Hellkite come under increased scrutiny when analyzed in this way). The way cards feed into the specific engines of my deck are:
Also, when analyzing answers, one needs to take a step back and realize that your deck should be able to answer problematic board cards in the following manner.
Conditional Tutors - I have cut most of the unconditional tutors in the deck due to their inefficiency to create spell-generated feedback loops to best minimize variance and best increase consistency, as detailed above. As a long-time Vintage player, I have acquired hard-to-find cards like Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Mishra's Workshop, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Bazaar of Baghdad, and other gems that allow me to tune my list as tightly as possible. I understand that these cards are expensive, and I don't even expect most Vintage players to own them so I won't preach that everyone should get them - it took me years to get them myself. However, if you are vested in the in the Vintage and/or EDH format and you have the means to acquire them without too much difficulty, then my all means please do. The will maintain their value because they are on the Reserved List. You will notice the improvement immediately. However, you will notice over time that using them also changes how and when you tutor for certain cards, and realizing these subtle changes will allow you to refine your particular list further.
Artifact Board Wipes - When I speak of board wipes, I am not speaking of using them defensively, but on offense. Of all the options available, Oblivion Stone has time-and-again been the best one. However, one great option that can leave up to 90% of your permanents unscathed is All is Dust . I've used both O-Stone and All is Dust to great effect, and interchange them both frequently. Due to the fact I am running testing cards that are more mana-intensive than their replacements, I am choosing to run with Stone. If the Sphinxes survive the first few rounds of scrutiny, then I'll see if I can graduate to the casting cost of All is Dust (They will die to this spell unlike their replacements, but that's why you are playing Sharuum).
Individual Cards
Cards that don't fall under the above criteria are discussed here below
Trinket Mage - People always call me crazy when they see this card absent from my list. The truth is, this card is a crutch that poses as a staple, than a staple that poses as a crutch. He is a narrow one-time tutor on a non-artifact body. 99% of the time, this card is played to get (in order of dependency):
Magister Sphinx and Sphinx of the Steel Wind - I am currently testing both because jack from NC swears by them. Magister Sphinx replaces Blightsteel Colossus as the card that encourages diplomatic play for the table (at least until each player can start playing their game). SotSW replaces Memnarch. I had previously cut both from the deck years ago, as one incurred too many groans, and the other just didn't offer enough (I was running Sundering Titan at the time, which was the deck's primary beatstick, not this guy). I don't mind that they cost 7 and 8 respectively. I loath the triple-colored costs of them both, making them a pain in the ass to cast. In fact, my running Unburial Rites is a concession to the fact they will have to be reanimated to gain value. However, now that I am running Cavern of Souls (and understanding that it will always be set to "Sphinx"), I am re-evaluating if they can pull their weight in the abscence of Sundering Titan.
Mycosynth Lattice and Darksteel Forge - Both of these cards are artifacts that don't immediately impact the board, but many lists run. I always run 1-2 such cards in the list if the allow me to extend the reach of my engines and feedback loops. Lattice does this; Forge does not. Currently, this slot is being taken my Rings of Brighthearth. Lattice is amazing as is rings, but Rings just happens to be the flavor of the month. Decks don't need to run them, but I personally appreciate the value both Lattice and Rings can offer my specific list.
Master Transmuter - was a holdover from when my list ran Sundering Titan. This, like Spine of Ish-Shah requires the deck to include multiple targets that would greatly benefit from this effect in order to gain enough utility. I have currently replaced it with Venser, the Sojourner and I like the change.
Crystal Shard and Erratic Portal - These cards should almost never used for their defensive applications, so I'm just throwing that argument out the window and focus on their offensive uses (meaning like the Giants, not a racist) which should be to generate ETB triggers and catch sloppy players sleeping when they tap out. Both cards do this with moderate to good effect, but Tawnos's Coffin does this amazingly well, if a bit more expensively, for both your and your opponent's creatures, making the Coffin's least effective use that of a Voyager's Staff. It's rules text allows it to double up on cards that creatures with ETB effects that generate counters (like Triskelavus). I am surprised to see this card isn't more widely used.
Deck Stats
Some facts to think about when analyzing my list my list
Feel free to post any commentary on the list. For anyone reading my posts, know that this list and the philosophies I've used to construct it, are the lens by which I view and respond to the replies on this thread.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Damn man, amazing write up. I wish there was an Oona player like you for Sharuum.
this is honestly commonplace amongst our group. i thought about doing write ups for a few generals, but the majority of people on these forums are so stubborn and set in their ways that they dont want to hear it, or worship a few select people on the boards, so i dont bother. this thread seems to be different... people just have a genuine love for sharuum, and have been very open to discussion and input. now if only other threads were like this....
Magister Sphinx (testing was to see how offensive this card is over its normal slot, Blightsteel Colossus).
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Myr Battlesphere (has been getting tested as a stronger, more flexible Hex Parasite, another example of stretching and overlapping utility of cards).
- Trading Post
- Fact of Fiction
- Bazaar of Baghdad
- Unburial Rites
Karn Liberated (which had been undergoing testing long before this last round of testing inclusions a few days ago)The cards I had swapped in to help accommodate those changes were:
Chromatic Lantern - to smooth my mana
Sword of the Meek / Thopter Foundry engine (Although both have been in the deck, I include this here to illustrate that I would be leaning harder on this synergy much harder than before)
The fetch-land engine
Oblivion Stone (over All is Dust due to the inclusion of more colored permanents being included.. seemed like a no-brainer).
Results in the order of oldest tested to newest tested:
Karn Liberated - has more than proven itself to be a worthy inclusion to the deck. In the few instances it was not relevant, it was still better than spine and at no point in time would I have wanted the spine over it (even wen there was another Karn Liberated on the table). It is the real deal. This has been consistent with testing over the last 2 months. It has earned its spot in the deck for the foreseeable future.
Myr Battlesphere - Has been proving itself over the last 3-4 weeks as a great way to contain planeswalkers on the table across multiple senarios. The idea for his inclusion was that if a player has more than one planeswalker in play, it offers me the most flexibility. For example:
Last night, it only got to kill one planeswalker in one game (I didn't see it very often, and most of the decks I faces with the deck didn't play their planeswalkers). I attacked my opponent (and not his planeswalker) and still got to kill the planeswalker and force the chump (I killed an opposing Karn Liberated that had to -3 to remove my Tawnos's Coffin... Great "chess" play: If he targets either the Coffin or the Battlesphere, he still loses his Karn because I had mana up to use the Coffin in response... Pawn still takes Rook).
In post-game discussions over Myr Battlesphere, more than one person admitted that having Myr Battlesphere on the table did prevent them from playing their planeswalker because of their inability to defend it well or from the poor EV in using the ability once just to risk it dying. I'm still not quite sold but Battlesphere is growing on me.
Magister Sphinx - Last night, this card caused groans every time it was played, and was directly responsible for Berderndern walking off the table in disgust. Everyone knew before the games started that I was going to play it to measure how far it rated on the "politically offensive scale" and this card was a 10. I happened to draw it almost every game, and it was responsible for more player death than any other card the entire night. I just need to get some things clear here.
I would never dispute that it isn't a powerful card. Back when I used to play EDH for packs, this card was a near-auto include. Here's the social problem with Sphinx.Sphinx of the Steel Wind - This card sat on its hands the entire night. I played against the following decks:
Adun Oakenshield (piloted by Itohernandez, who I consider to be an authority on the deck).
Saffi Eriksdotter piloted by Bederndern, who has another amazingly solid list and years of play experience. I consider his list to be one of best lists in the region.
Sen Triplets
Numot the Devastator
My Timewalking Riku of the Two Reflections list (which can be found at http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329948&page=78.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Rasputin Dreamweaver
Nicol Bolas
Chainer, Dementia Master
Damia, Sage of Stone I forgot which thread here has my list
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Animar, Soul of Elements
The Pro-green / Pro-red abilties were all but useless. Foundry and M. Sphinx diminish the usefulness of its lifelink. The vigilance wasn't amazing either. The best abilities were having first strike and flying on a body, and that's only because together, they beat almost any other keyword ability on a creature with a 6-toughness (or smaller) ass not named "First Strike" or "Deathtouch". In the 8 or so games I played, this card time and again could have been something else that also would not have mattered. As with all testing lots, I'll reserve taking final actions on them until I've played 50+ games, but this has been the disappointment I expected it to be.
Trading Post - in my 8-10 games last night, I only saw it twice and only had the opportunity to play it once. However the one time I played Sharuum over TP may have been a misplay.
Fact or Fiction - play-wise the card was "meh". Socially, it is a better card than most draw spells because it's interactive, so the 30-45 second people debate over how to split the piles doesn't have masturbatory feel that spinning a top or playing a straight draw 3 or draw 5 does. Hasn't solidified its relevance over any other card draw slot yet.
[CARD]
Bazaar of Baghdad[/CARD] - disappointed that I didn't draw or have the ability to tutor for this card at all yesterday. I was really hoping to see what this card could do, but that's the nature of 100 card singleton. Unburial Rites - Its only relevance was its inclusion in an Intuition pile with Sharuum (who had been tucked) and Phyrexian Metamorph . In this situation, I could have searched for a Jack of Spades and combo-ed off.
The fetch engine eased the tougher mana requirements as expected. Games didn't drag on, so I never felt like I was missing too many land drops.
Oblivion Stone - is getting replaced by All is Dust immediately. Even with running both Sphinxes, the deck still makes more than enough mana to cast this 7-drop and there were times that extra mana for the O-stone pop cost the table games that All is Dust could have won. My mana concerns turned out to be unwarranted.
Chromatic Lantern was an all-star last night, and was easily recognized as being stronger than Coalition relic and Thran Dynamo in this specific list. I will be looking to hunt down a foil one.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Sorry for not getting a chance to respond everyone-I've been busy with work and school, trying to get caught up before my trip to the GP this weekend. Coincidentally, I did some testing of my own-I removed Vindicate from the list in favor of Aether Spellbomb, and as Jostin said, the value from having options with the card was far better than the value I got from Vindicate.
Karn Liberated was likewise a great inclusion over Spine for all the same reasons.
I see precisely what Jostin123 is saying about Trinket Mage...and it makes a lot of sense considering we've got Artificer's Intuition, which promotes synergy within the list and accomplishes what TM does without taking up another slot. I'm going to move forward with cutting it.
Sphinx OTSW has always been an all-star for me, but typically takes on a last-resort role. I typically find myself paired against a lot of voltron RG generals, and if they happen to get an advantage over me, I grab Sphinx OTSW and sit behind her until I'm able to combo out. I will admit she's more of a meta-game choice than perhaps anything else in the list, though I've never been disappointed to topdeck/tutor her elsewhere. She could be cut for an acceptable solution, like Myr Battlesphere. Likewise, Myr Battlesphere works nicely with Momentary Blink/Aether Spellbomb/ Voyager Staff. Do you like shenanigans? I most certainly do.
All is Dust is the only other sweeper I would consider acceptable within the list, as it gives us the least amount of drawback. I've had success with Austere Command as well, but being able to maintain proper board position while sweeping relevant threats seems next level.
Magister Sphinx-this is a tricky topic. While I advocate playing the deck as politically neutral as possible, MS sticks out like a sore thumb in even the most seasoned playgroups. I've included MS as a way of bringing finality to tight games. I tutor/use him when there's one man left at the table, or as a means of keeping a particularly dominating player in check. And you're right, Jostin-it's the punk way to win. It's a punk way to swing the game around, and in decks like this, it is on par with Worldfire and Sway of the Stars in terms of dickbaggery. Yet there's absolutely nothing like it when you want to end a game immediately. I use it as sparingly as possible, and try to avoid letting anyone know it's even in the list (a seemingly impossible task, considering the amount of attention this primer and Sharuum get). It's quite possibly the most politically offensive card in the entire deck, even more than Sharuum herself. But on the list of cards I'd cut, it's so far at the bottom that it's almost unthinkable.
However, as with absolutely everything else you've said thus far, I agree whole heartedly with your reasoning behind running Blightsteel-though I am curious what your thoughts are on similar options, like Inkwell Leviathan. While dealing 40 damage to the table is a lot easier than 120 or more (thinking total life points here), Blightsteel has often ate removal at my table, and like Primeval Titan, turned games into a question of who could answer/steel it first. Inkwell avoids those problems (well, outside of things like Bribery) and has a respectable body to boot.
Regarding your post on Roar of Rec over Yawg's Win: The ratio of artifacts in your list (specifically the availability of things like LED) makes Roar a much better inclusion. You're correct in that overall it's CMC will be less than a respectable turn with Yawg win, but I prefer the versatility that YawgWin offers me. Getting able to reuse conditional tutors, the card filtering spells in my list, and more has made YawgWin an auto-include for me. Roar is STILL an amazing card that is well suited in your list, and the Control/Goodstuffz variants I've mentioned several times in this thread. Not to mention it's a great budget alternative to both Yawgwin and Open The Vaults, if people are REALLY cheap.
Thank you again for taking the time to post here, and educate myself and others on your playstyle and card selection. I'm quite serious when I say you've gotten me actively brewing and tweaking the deck again-something that didn't look like it was going to happen until MTG had another artifact block. I greatly appreciate your contribution, and look forward to seeing how some of your choices work out for me in the GP this weekend.
Speaking of which, is anyone making it out to GP Charleston? Chewie and I will be there fri-sunday gunslinging!
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
I apologize for not getting back on this sooner. Work and family concerns have kept me busy this week. Sandy has taken a toll on both....
As for using my feedback, I give my permission: It's all good. This thread has a high density of relevent information and experience, which shines through with most of the responses and questions, which is what compelled me to add my 2 cents. I really do appreciate the fact that you asked: in the age of net-decking, this is a rare occurrence, and is another sign that you sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
That just made me smile :). When lists get so tight that improvements seem unlikely, interest can get stale. There have been months at a time where I haven't played the deck because I just didn't feel the need to. When I play Sharuum, I don't pick it up because I enjoy comboing out or spitting out play-after-play of rediculousness. I do so because sometimes, fun for me is being able to pick up a deck and pilot it at an extremely high level of competence, and the challenge isn't to win the table, but to play a perfect technical game of Magic (something that has only happened like twice in my 18 or 19 years of playing the game). I refuse to cut any of the cards I'm testing until I've played an exhaustive number of games because I don't just want to see if the cards are good. Sometimes, you need to understand nuances of their applications. It took me almost a year to understand how to properly use Bazaar of Baghdad in Vintage Bazzar-Stax, a card that I pushed very hard for inclusion, but I understood at the time that my game losses at the time didn't come from Bazaar, but how I used it. I promise to give you updates when I've made my decisions.
I won't be there... it's been a long time since I've played for a seat on the gravy train. After college, and now that I'm building my career, I mostly play Vintage tournaments now. But, if you ever come to an event in the NY/NJ area, let me know. I would love to get a game with 'ya. Good luck with school, and if you'd like me to provide resources for anything regarding my list, building concepts, decks I've referenced... anything, just PM me and let me know.
All the best,
Jostin
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
those are the type of cards i dont like, as they make the deck more linear, predictable and weaken you as a player. besides the fact it is horribly unfair, the card is just not good for developing your game as a player. it is the same thing as primeval titan (in the sense of being a crutch). when titan was in the format, manabases were terrible. they were stretched so thin becasue the list either ran titan, or abused an opposing titan, and thats not good for your game as it weakens your skills in designing a proper manabase (as opposed to a greedy titan manabase). its pretty much the same thing with magister sphinx. you can have all the shoddy play in the world, as long as you hit sphinx...your golden. you can just have a bad game with no live cards...except for sphinx, and your golden. it is a card that idiot proofs your game and has no place in the format (because of its ridiculous ability).
I actually didn't play the Sphinx plan. I literally saw Sphinx every game. Some games I even threw it back from the opening hand and re-drew it. what made the games lopsided was that I also saw Artificer's intuition in half of my games. The specific game you're talking about, I sucked my teeth 'cuz and laughed over the stupidity of it. It was I game where I threw the sphinx and Karn liberated back with with the partial paris mulligan, drew a mana rock and the artificer's intuition, rifle shuffled the rest away, cut the deck 5 times, and rifle shuffled again. Mike cuts my deck, and what's the card I drew on my second turn... Sphinx. It would be my only relevent line of play for the next 2 turns (until I drew Mind's Eye). I only saw Trading posts in 2 games that night, and didn't once see Bazaar. I was looking to test multiple cards, and didn't see an even spread of them on Sunday.
This is the reason I despise Sensei's Divining Top. However, this is also the reason I would 100% play both Top and Sphinx if we were playing in a league for packs, like the guys and I used to. I wasn't testing the sphinx to see if it was good, it was to see if it would piss people off more than top, which it did. You're reaction that game and your response now further shows that this card is indeed more flagrant an offender than Blightsteel.
To be fair, in one of the games where I also drew into an early Sphinx, I called that before I got to my turn, the entire table would be at 10... and that's exactly what happened (I'm not sure if that was the same game as the game we were talking about above, it might have been.) It got killed and reanimated, cloned, and then metamorphed. I know I didn't win that game, but took 2 players off the table.
Now, when we head over to Long Island, if we play with those guys that came over from Game Table, I will make sure that Sphinx comes down on their ass faster than a Leyline... I owe them a swift departure. Some people just don't understand the concept of playing a civil game. My last time at the warehouse, one guy in particular asked me to play an "toned-down" deck, and then proceeds to take 20 minutes to masturbate long enough to find the cards to combo the table on turn 5, and then says it's getting late and has to take his friend home. Sharuum's been cleaning out her shotgun ever since, and that's the reason why I started playing her as frequesntly again. No post-highschool juvenille who frequents that store is going enjoy a game of EDH at the warehouse while I'm sitting at their table. You come into our "house" and proceed to disgust your hosts. Call me bitter, call me a jack***, call it what you want. I just don't have the patience for nonsense like that.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
half of us in queens, the other half in long island.
Jack, I was looking over the primer a bit, and I found a mistake. You state, in the combos section, that Salvaging Station + ThopterSword combo + Lotus Bloom is an infinite mana combo, when (as far as I can tell) it isn't. Station requires something dying, and I don't see anything letting you get more than 6 mana from it.
I also thought of another infinite mana combo, involving the infinite Sharuum-Clone loop, Station, and one of the Lotus' (either petal or bloom). The Sharuum loop creates infinite dying triggers, thus infinite untaps of Station. Use station to recur a used Lotus, sac it, use the untap trigger, sac it... Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
BRG [T2] Jund Midrange GRB
W [Modern] Mono-White Control W
It's funny... The majority of my wins with Time Sieve didn't come from Thopter / Sword combo, but from Karn animating 1 drops, that I then sac to Tme Sieve, and stacking Salvaging Station triggers to get them back.
The deck offers so many lines of play... It truly is a pleasure to pilot.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
I hope all of you had a wonderful holiday weekend. The GP was a blast-I restructured the list to fit some of our discussion points. The OP needs a mammoth update-both that AND news from the GP (with testing results) will be up likely tonight or tomorrow, depending on when I can break away for a minute.
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth:
College is finally winding down for the semester, and I’m starting to get some free time. I’ve been overhauling the OP all morning long-expect an update on it TODAY when I get off from work (some time after 5 PM US EST).
Like I said the other day, I restructured my personal list the night before GP Charleston to fit some of the suggestions Jostin123 and others have made. I’ll save the entire list for the OP, but here are a few of the major cuts I made-and new inclusions:
OUT:
Yawgmoth’s Will
Mystical Tutor
Vindicate
Reshape
Trinket Mage
IN:
Detention Sphere
Venser (Planeswalker)
Elixir of Immortality
All is Dust
(random other card I can’t currently remember, probably Mindslaver)
That might only be 4 cards, but it’s quite a shake up, considering I’ve used YW, MT, Vindicate and Reshape for 5 years in the list, without EVER cutting them. The new inclusions all have their own merits, so I’ll go over them right quick:
1. Detention Sphere: This is the same speed as Vindicate, but has the potential for multiple uses thanks to Open the Vaults and Venser. This coupled with costing only three mana (!) means that we’ll have a scalable solution to meet our needs. Granted, it’s more “delicate” than Vindicate-but with the chance to recycle it, that’s largely irrelevant.
2. Venser: I’m not a fan of planeswalkers. But my personal bias should not come into play when we’re creating this list as a community, not an individual. Jostin123’s commentary on why planeswalkers and similarly versatile cards are valuable to decks like this finally sunk in with me when I realized I wanted a card that could untap mana rocks, blink our creatures, AND make Detention Sphere nuts. He’s also another walking target for hate-which is far more valuable than you’d think. I like this guy. I like him a lot.
3. All is Dust: This gives my list 3 virtual sweepers, all scalable and advantageous to our needs. I might be alone here, but heavy board sweep has won me more games than comboing off. The 7 CMC is irrelevant when over half our deck is colorless and we’re using the best mana rocks/producers available.
4. Elixir of Immortality: Alright, so this one looks a bit nutty, I know. But hear me out-I’ve mentioned on here and Twitter that I was looking for a card that would enable us to recycle tutors, artifacts and others en-masse. This card fits the bill better than Yawg’s win does. Yawg’s win is an obviously powerful card, but works better in lists where you’re using low CMC mana producers, card draw and tutors-think something like Reanimator or CMDR Storm (which I also attempted this month). Considering we can tutor for this much easier than we could Yawg’s Win, AND the fact it works more synergistically with our deck, I feel Elixir has earned it’s place in the deck for at least a while.
I’m fairly sure that’s everything-I’ve not got my exact deck list in front of me, so be expecting edits to this post (or just look for them in the OP).
As for testing from the GP-
It didn’t happen. Well, not at the scale I wished for.
I was gunslinging at GP Charleston for roughly 18-20 hours total Friday through Sunday. I played roughly 200 games of MTG (or slightly more) during that time. Out of 200 games, I figure I played less than 10 games of CMDR during that entire period. Most people asked to play Standard, or Modern (surprisingly). I had a few requests for legacy, and got in two games of pauper (which was incredibly entertaining, and has me itching to play the format on MTGO). Of the CMDR games I played, I figure I played Gaddock Teeg over half of the time, as Teeg was much better suited against an unknown meta (it’s literally hate and removal. I was shocked at how well it worked. TAX THEM TO DEATH, I SAY!) If anyone is interested, I’ll likely be making a thread for Gaddock Teeg as well soon. Hit me up via PM and I’ll send you the list.
Disappointing, I know. But them’s the breaks.
However, I have gotten in quite a bit of testing since then. Overall, I’ve found the planeswalkers (Karn especially) to be great additions to the list, as they’re versatile answers to MANY problems the deck has. The most aggravating thing about them though is the potential for their theft against Ux based lists-I lost two games in a row because someone cast Thieve’s Auction and the split-second possession spell on Karn.
At first not having Trinket Mage, Mystical Tutor and Yawg’s Will was awkward. Then I realized they were unnecessary, added nothing to the deck, or I had been using them improperly this entire time. Then I felt realllllly silly for ever having used them. There are random moments when Mystical Tutor would be really helpful, but not enough for me to miss it.
Overall, I like the direction the decklist is heading. It feels more interactive than before, and there are less derpy moments than there used to be in goldfishing and actual practice. It hums, and that couldn’t have been accomplished without the help and aid of everyone here. Thank you, all of you. Seriously, you guys are great, and are the only reason I return to MTGS (outside of trolling).
@kay-hine: HISS, N. DISK! I’ve always found that card to be too slow. Any particular reason you’re running it since you’ve not got Darksteel Forge to make it crazy?
…You know, Animate Dead would be a hell of a lot better than Reanimate in my current list. Especially since Venser is in there to blink it. Hrm.
How is Karn performing?
Thanks, Heroes of The Planes! You guys are great!
Actual Truth: