Oh my. Well then, Mikaeus + Altar of Dementia + any Persist creature = mill everyone else. Plus, Woodfall Primus becomes and Armageddon + all other noncreature permanents. Huh..
Well, I guess that's one way to win. Still, I think Mikaeus makes a lot of the deck better. With him out, Jarad's second ability can be used twice on the same creature if you need it.
Hmmm....
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Oh my. Well then, Mikaeus + Altar of Dementia + any Persist creature = mill everyone else. Plus, Woodfall Primus becomes and Armageddon + all other noncreature permanents. Huh..
Well, I guess that's one way to win. Still, I think Mikaeus makes a lot of the deck better. With him out, Jarad's second ability can be used twice on the same creature if you need it.
Hmmm....
I think he's as close to auto include as it gets with this deck.
Actually, I believe Puppeteer Clique is a bit of a different animal. Being relient on my opponent's graveyards to pull creatures from vs. destroying all their lands and non-creature permanents.
I still can't find a way to include Puppeteer Clique here. It doesn't fit with our theme (recuring our creatures, milling ourselves/dredging, etc), yet its still a very good card.
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EDIT:
One idea I had is to list all the 6CC+ creatures that this deck could/should run, and let you guys rank them (in relation to the deck) to see where everyone stands. Sounds like an idea right? My current belief is that we should probably be somewhere between 5-6 of the following, maybe up to 7?
Is running Rings of Brighthearth a little too greedy? It's great with Jarad, and I do have some activated abilities, but I think it may be better served as, maybe a Crucible of Worlds, or another needed addition.
Is running Rings of Brighthearth a little too greedy? It's great with Jarad, and I do have some activated abilities, but I think it may be better served as, maybe a Crucible of Worlds, or another needed addition.
I do believe it is a bit greedy, Crucible of Worlds is much more deserving of a spot.
Prime Titan
Rune-scared
Woodfall
Mikaeus
Avenger
Terrastadon
Sheoldred
Grave Titan
Would be my order of value
EDIT
Clique is very good in these decks trust me.
EDIT 2
Imagine if you mill them into an eldrazi then you respond by cliquing the eldrazi for the win. It's not uncommon for people to run at least 1
Grave Titan yes. Shoeldred just begs attention from everyone and you really don't need his abilitys. Terrastadon is worse than woodfall IMO get it too early and destroy lands people hate you right out of the game. How often with this deck will you need to answer 3 things at once? (assuming your running slime as well) Still a very good creature though.
Grave Titan yes. Shoeldred just begs attention from everyone and you really don't need his abilitys. Terrastadon is worse than woodfall IMO get it too early and destroy lands people hate you right out of the game. How often with this deck will you need to answer 3 things at once? (assuming your running slime as well) Still a very good creature though.
As much as I want to disagree with your take on Sheoldred, I can't. It seemed like the perfect fatty to fit here, and I was happy with it in the 99. But the more I see it and evaluate it, the more I agree with your point. The deck doesn't really need what she gives, and the target she creates is not worth it 90% of the time.
I'm interested to see what others think, this is the proposed current swap:
Sheoldred, Whispering One I would strongly argue for. Oppressive for opponents, and a great help for you. Sac your biggest creature at EOT, get it back just in time for your turn. Plus, it's not bad as a sac cannon itself.
I'd argue for it over Avenger of Zendikar, at least.
Sheoldred, Whispering One I would strongly argue for. Oppressive for opponents, and a great help for you. Sac your biggest creature at EOT, get it back just in time for your turn. Plus, it's not bad as a sac cannon itself.
I'd argue for it over Avenger of Zendikar, at least.
Interesting, very interesting! I love that you guys are getting involved in the deckbuilding and sharing your opinions!
Thanks very much for your post!
Sheoldred is a hard card to evaluate here. It's going to force opponents to sac their dudes, allows you to get back yours, plays nicely with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and can hit hard.
With the current proposed changes, I'd have people evaluate it this way (should have clarified what would be pulled for what before):
Avenger of Zendikar > Grave Titan (both are token producers that benefit other pieces of the deck)
Woodfall Primus > Terastodon (both destroy noncreature permanents)
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed > Sheoldred, Whispering One (both return creatures from the yard)
So, that's why they're similar. I'm not advocating one way or the other, but this is what has been proposed.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
You're not running either of these cards, and it doesn't really look like you have anything worth cutting that isn't immediately better. If you are considering one of the 2 for a little added card draw, I'd say just go with Harmonize. They're both usually going to draw you 3 cards, although it is possible to draw less off of Syphon Mind (I've drawn 1 card in a 4 player game, didn't feel good). In my experience, the upside of syphon mind is almost negligible, everyone will discard either a land, their worst card, or there's a good chance it's something they can use out of the graveyard. You're not annoying or helping anyone when you cast a harmonize and you're still advancing your game plan.
Might I suggest Promise of Power? It seems like a good fit here if you don't mind losing 5 life, it's 5 cards for 5 mana, very powerful. The potential upside is huge in this deck too, in the late game, draw 5, make a big flyer that will be more gas for your general. I dunno, I'm a big fan of the card.
You're not running either of these cards, and it doesn't really look like you have anything worth cutting that isn't immediately better. If you are considering one of the 2 for a little added card draw, I'd say just go with Harmonize. They're both usually going to draw you 3 cards, although it is possible to draw less off of Syphon Mind (I've drawn 1 card in a 4 player game, didn't feel good). In my experience, the upside of syphon mind is almost negligible, everyone will discard either a land, their worst card, or there's a good chance it's something they can use out of the graveyard. You're not annoying or helping anyone when you cast a harmonize and you're still advancing your game plan.
No, sorry. The original time I posted it, I meant to ask 'if I'm running Puppeteer Clique, would it make it worth running Syphon Mind,' and then I was comparing Syphon Mind to a better Harmonize (same mana cost, usually draw three cards, bigger upside).
Might I suggest Promise of Power? It seems like a good fit here if you don't mind losing 5 life, it's 5 cards for 5 mana, very powerful. The potential upside is huge in this deck too, in the late game, draw 5, make a big flyer that will be more gas for your general. I dunno, I'm a big fan of the card.
Life-loss can be an issue for the deck. That being said, Promise of Power gets you cards faster than Phyrexian Arena will, but Necropotence may still be better. What would you recommend cutting for PoP?
Again, my worry about Glissa, the Traitor (who I actually LOVE as a card), is being able to kill my opponents creatures when I need to. I know people are helping with the theme of creatures-first, but possibly losing Putrefy, Maelstrom Pulse, etc (as suggested) really hurts my ability to do so. That said, with Grave Pact and Jarad, I should be gold.
Mikaeus (best synergy with the deck)
Primeval Titan (I hear he's good)
Terastadon (can act as a finisher as well as providing utility)
Avenger (tokens are good sac fodder and you have a lot of outlets)
----This is where I'd draw the line and look for a card that does more for the deck. With tutors 5 seems like a good starting point.
Woodfall (good but I think dumbo is better)
Grave Titan (tokens are good but this guy doesn't make that many outside of magic christmas land where you get 5 attack steps with him)
Sheoldred (slow, draws lots of hate)
Rune-scarred Demon (since a fair tutor costs 3 you're paying 4 mana to have the effect on a creature. Unlike Acidic Slime/Krosan Grip I just don't think that's worth it.)
All good suggestions... wait. Does Mikaeus + Woodfall Primus = the stupid stuff I think it does?
Yes indeed.
Experimental Kraj
Oh my. Well then, Mikaeus + Altar of Dementia + any Persist creature = mill everyone else. Plus, Woodfall Primus becomes and Armageddon + all other noncreature permanents. Huh..
Well, I guess that's one way to win. Still, I think Mikaeus makes a lot of the deck better. With him out, Jarad's second ability can be used twice on the same creature if you need it.
Hmmm....
I think he's as close to auto include as it gets with this deck.
Experimental Kraj
Ain't that the truth.
Experimental Kraj
Actually, I believe Puppeteer Clique is a bit of a different animal. Being relient on my opponent's graveyards to pull creatures from vs. destroying all their lands and non-creature permanents.
I still can't find a way to include Puppeteer Clique here. It doesn't fit with our theme (recuring our creatures, milling ourselves/dredging, etc), yet its still a very good card.
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EDIT:
One idea I had is to list all the 6CC+ creatures that this deck could/should run, and let you guys rank them (in relation to the deck) to see where everyone stands. Sounds like an idea right? My current belief is that we should probably be somewhere between 5-6 of the following, maybe up to 7?
If more are brought up, I'll add them here.
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2nd EDIT:
Is running Rings of Brighthearth a little too greedy? It's great with Jarad, and I do have some activated abilities, but I think it may be better served as, maybe a Crucible of Worlds, or another needed addition.
I do believe it is a bit greedy, Crucible of Worlds is much more deserving of a spot.
Experimental Kraj
Alakazam! Switcheroo!
+1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Rings of Brighthearth
Oh! Sorry. I misunderstood.
Yeah, and the funny thing about endless milling? Puppeteer Clique steals all those new creatures in the yard
Rune-scared
Woodfall
Mikaeus
Avenger
Terrastadon
Sheoldred
Grave Titan
Would be my order of value
EDIT
Clique is very good in these decks trust me.
EDIT 2
Imagine if you mill them into an eldrazi then you respond by cliquing the eldrazi for the win. It's not uncommon for people to run at least 1
Thank you sir!
So, right off the bat, you'd take out Grave Titan, Sheoldred, and Terastodon for Woodfall Primus, Mikaeus, and Avenger. Correct?
Once I realized the interaction with Altar I understood completely.
If Clique and Woodfall come in, that makes Mikaeus a pretty strong candidate as well.
As much as I want to disagree with your take on Sheoldred, I can't. It seemed like the perfect fatty to fit here, and I was happy with it in the 99. But the more I see it and evaluate it, the more I agree with your point. The deck doesn't really need what she gives, and the target she creates is not worth it 90% of the time.
I'm interested to see what others think, this is the proposed current swap:
-1 Grave Titan
-1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
-1 Terastodon
+1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
+1 Avenger of Zendikar
+1 Woodfall Primus
Thoughts? I'd also love to hear from some of the people that have been watching the thread a lot and have yet to comment.
I'd argue for it over Avenger of Zendikar, at least.
Interesting, very interesting! I love that you guys are getting involved in the deckbuilding and sharing your opinions!
Thanks very much for your post!
Sheoldred is a hard card to evaluate here. It's going to force opponents to sac their dudes, allows you to get back yours, plays nicely with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and can hit hard.
With the current proposed changes, I'd have people evaluate it this way (should have clarified what would be pulled for what before):
Avenger of Zendikar > Grave Titan (both are token producers that benefit other pieces of the deck)
Woodfall Primus > Terastodon (both destroy noncreature permanents)
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed > Sheoldred, Whispering One (both return creatures from the yard)
So, that's why they're similar. I'm not advocating one way or the other, but this is what has been proposed.
Oh, wow... yeah I forgot all about Victimize!
-1 Life // Death
+1 Victimize
Excellent suggestion, thanks!
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EDIT:
If Puppeteer Clique was added to the list, which may happen here, would Syphon Mind then become a better Harmonize?
You see Creeping Renaissance as best way to do this?
Also, I'm really interested in opinions of Syphon Mind vs. Harmonize.
You're not running either of these cards, and it doesn't really look like you have anything worth cutting that isn't immediately better. If you are considering one of the 2 for a little added card draw, I'd say just go with Harmonize. They're both usually going to draw you 3 cards, although it is possible to draw less off of Syphon Mind (I've drawn 1 card in a 4 player game, didn't feel good). In my experience, the upside of syphon mind is almost negligible, everyone will discard either a land, their worst card, or there's a good chance it's something they can use out of the graveyard. You're not annoying or helping anyone when you cast a harmonize and you're still advancing your game plan.
Might I suggest Promise of Power? It seems like a good fit here if you don't mind losing 5 life, it's 5 cards for 5 mana, very powerful. The potential upside is huge in this deck too, in the late game, draw 5, make a big flyer that will be more gas for your general. I dunno, I'm a big fan of the card.
I just posted a decklist yesterday if you're curious for a different take on the deck. I was IMMEDIATELY excited when I saw Jarad spoiled, this is what I came up with: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8844122#post8844122
No, sorry. The original time I posted it, I meant to ask 'if I'm running Puppeteer Clique, would it make it worth running Syphon Mind,' and then I was comparing Syphon Mind to a better Harmonize (same mana cost, usually draw three cards, bigger upside).
Life-loss can be an issue for the deck. That being said, Promise of Power gets you cards faster than Phyrexian Arena will, but Necropotence may still be better. What would you recommend cutting for PoP?
Nice, I'll check it out, thanks!
Regrowth?
Again, my worry about Glissa, the Traitor (who I actually LOVE as a card), is being able to kill my opponents creatures when I need to. I know people are helping with the theme of creatures-first, but possibly losing Putrefy, Maelstrom Pulse, etc (as suggested) really hurts my ability to do so. That said, with Grave Pact and Jarad, I should be gold.
Also, I really need to fit Grave Pact in here...
Primeval Titan (I hear he's good)
Terastadon (can act as a finisher as well as providing utility)
Avenger (tokens are good sac fodder and you have a lot of outlets)
----This is where I'd draw the line and look for a card that does more for the deck. With tutors 5 seems like a good starting point.
Woodfall (good but I think dumbo is better)
Grave Titan (tokens are good but this guy doesn't make that many outside of magic christmas land where you get 5 attack steps with him)
Sheoldred (slow, draws lots of hate)
Rune-scarred Demon (since a fair tutor costs 3 you're paying 4 mana to have the effect on a creature. Unlike Acidic Slime/Krosan Grip I just don't think that's worth it.)