Yeah, I think my meta has grown wise to my planeswalking ways, so cards like Planar Cleansing and even Fated Retribution are seeing play. Merciless Eviction always seems to pop up when 3+ walkers hit the board. I actually cut YawgWin shortly after posting that, but Genesis Wave hits this deck like a truck, so it's a must-add in my book, especially with boosters like Mirari's Wake. I did have the pleasure of witnessing the power of Jace, Architect of Thought+Humility and that was pretty stellar. Against a token deck though, you're not saving yourself much grief with counters and all.
Replenish works so well, because enchantments like Doubling Season and Mirari's Wake and Maelstrom Nexus are must-kills in my meta. I love having an Oblivion Ring and Pernicious Deed return for a second helping of tears. I also run Skyshroud Claim as a ramper, because I use the ABU duals and all the Shocks, plus if you have a mana doubler on the board it's a free cast since they come in untapped.
Ugin seems like he's going to be an auto-card in a lot of decks, this one especially. He's being called the anti-Bolas and Doubling Season makes him disgustingly broken. Boros Charm saved my ass twice (once because a guy played Armageddon after summoning a monster token army) and once because Terastodon tried to take out Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Tamiyo, The Moon Sage and Teferi, Temporal Archmage in one stroke. The disappointment was priceless, especially considering it was against the person who suggested I run Boros Charm!!
Yeah, I am definitely hoping to grab an Ugin very soon. I also just swapped Celestial Colonnade for a Wooded Foothills. I'm still trying to see if I can find any of your suggestions to test out.
This week was a great week for trading. I got an Ugin and my fifth fetch for this deck, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas for the Sharuum deck I'm working on, and Freyalise for my elfball.
I dropped Karn because I only use one of his abilities, where I will likely use all three of Ugin's. I'm pretty excited and can't wait to play it soon.
I actually managed to trade for a Maze of Ith, so I dropped Comeuppance - I never even drew it to try it out, but the repeatability of Maze seems good.
Also, when played last night, someone hit me with a kicked Sadistic Sacrament on turn 4, which totally wrecked my deck. I made sure to kill him (Nicol Bolas stole a 10/10 doublestrike Hydra while someone had a double damage enchantment on the field), but then I was out of the game.
I'm really enjoying using Freyalise. The spot removal against artifacts and enchantments came to be very useful in some situations. Spamming a mana dork is not a bad ideia since it can both protect your walker anda ramp for bigger dudes. The ultimate is somewhat irregular, but most of my creatures are already green. So her ultimate might endup being useful. I switched a Mulldrifter for a Elvish Visionary so I can play it with less
Yeah, Freyalise is probably better for the deck than I initially thought. Chump blockers that double as ramp are pretty awesome. Naturalize is nice, but I still prefer Aura Shards as it doesn't cost loyalty and works with all creatures coming into play. The biggest problem is the ultimate - it really won't do much for me. I suppose if I can trade for a second copy, I may give her a try eventually.
I play with 7 green creatures (including the Sliver Queen as the commander) and 3 green token maker (including Freyalise herself). So I can usually draw at least 2 or 3 cards with her ultimate.
But most of the time I just use her as a Naturalize. I like her because it is a reliable way to remove enchantments/artifacts as she doesn't depend of a second card to trigger the ability. Also, she can do other things if the board situation does not require me to Naturalize things. On the other hand, Aura Shards is cheaper and can trigger multiple times.
Edit: Btw, here's my current list. Once again, thanks for the excellent topic, it really helped me to build it
I'm working on a 60-card planeswalker deck, and I really appreciate your breakdown of all the planeswalkers. I also like that you're keeping up with it, updating as each new planeswalker is released.
So... Narset is now a planeswalker, and she looks like a great fit for the deck.
Narset Transcendent2WU
+1: Look at the top card of your library. If it is a noncreature, nonland card, you may reveal it and put it in your hand.
-2: When you cast your next instant or sorcery this turn, it gains rebound.
-9: Your opponents can't cast noncreature spells.
Loyalty: 6
Things off the top of my head:
That's a HUGE starting loyalty for 4 mana.
Low creature decks, like ours, have another incremental advantage engine.
Ultimate can put an end to a lot of control decks.
So... Narset is now a planeswalker, and she looks like a great fit for the deck.
Narset Transcendent2WU
+1: Look at the top card of your library. If it is a noncreature, nonland card, you may reveal it and put it in your hand.
-2: When you cast your next instant or sorcery this turn, it gains rebound.
-9: Your opponents can't cast noncreature spells.
Loyalty: 6
Things off the top of my head:
That's a HUGE starting loyalty for 4 mana.
Low creature decks, like ours, have another incremental advantage engine.
Ultimate can put an end to a lot of control decks.
There's some crazy things to rebound.
I really want to try Narset. I think you did a pretty good analysis, but I wanted to add one concern - if she gets stolen right before you can ultimate, this deck is toast. The last thing we want is for our opponent to have that emblem.
Also, I may not have all that many instants and sorceries, but rebounding proliferate is always welcome. Rebounding a wrath is hilarious - no one will want to drop creatures between the original wrath and the rebound, essentially buying you another turn against creature decks.
I'm working on a 60-card planeswalker deck, and I really appreciate your breakdown of all the planeswalkers. I also like that you're keeping up with it, updating as each new planeswalker is released.
60-card duel or multiplayer? I'd be curious to see that. Just bear in mind that the scores for each walker will vary based on format/play style.
Edit: Btw, here's my current list. Once again, thanks for the excellent topic, it really helped me to build it
No problem. I really love playing this deck. Question about your build: you have three different versions of Garruk and three different versions of Ajani - do you frequently run into problems where you can't cast one from your hand without losing another on your table? I had issues with that a lot more before I cut down to only two variations of each walker. Whicj is sad, because I'd love to include others.
No problem. I really love playing this deck. Question about your build: you have three different versions of Garruk and three different versions of Ajani - do you frequently run into problems where you can't cast one from your hand without losing another on your table? I had issues with that a lot more before I cut down to only two variations of each walker. Whicj is sad, because I'd love to include others.
It happens some times, but not very often. In some situations I just play the walker on my hand and let the older one go (usually with 4CMC Garruk, that helps with the mana in the early-mid game into 5CMC or 7CMC Garruks that put more pressure on the board).
But since we keep getting new walkers to add to the deck, those "three of" are the first candidates for getting cut and leave room for the new friends.
Narset seems great, but I'm not very sure she is what my deck currently needs. Her first ability will net me a card around 50% of the time.
Her second ability interacts pretty well with around 15+ spells on my deck. But most of the effects would bee recursive wraths (which is not that bad) or recursive land fetch (also good, but not THAT relevant). But I guess once with her in the deck a few adjustments can be made so the other cards synergizes better with her.
Another Dragons of Tarkir card I'd like to sse in the deck is Profound Journey. It's a little m bictore expensive than Obzedat's Aid but takes two thinks
No problem. I really love playing this deck. Question about your build: you have three different versions of Garruk and three different versions of Ajani - do you frequently run into problems where you can't cast one from your hand without losing another on your table? I had issues with that a lot more before I cut down to only two variations of each walker. Whicj is sad, because I'd love to include others.
Another Dragons of Tarkir card I'd like to sse in the deck is Profound Journey. It's a little m bictore expensive than Obzedat's Aid but takes two thinks
I've been considering Profound Journey since it was spoiled. Being able to return any two permanents is amazing, but the cost is just a bit higher than I like. I'm still undecided.
Oh - and I traded for a Scroll Rack and a Tempt with Discovery that I'm thinking about adding. I'm just not sure yet what to cut.
No problem. I really love playing this deck. Question about your build: you have three different versions of Garruk and three different versions of Ajani - do you frequently run into problems where you can't cast one from your hand without losing another on your table? I had issues with that a lot more before I cut down to only two variations of each walker. Whicj is sad, because I'd love to include others.
Another Dragons of Tarkir card I'd like to sse in the deck is Profound Journey. It's a little m bictore expensive than Obzedat's Aid but takes two thinks
I've been considering Profound Journey since it was spoiled. Being able to return any two permanents is amazing, but the cost is just a bit higher than I like. I'm still undecided.
Oh - and I traded for a Scroll Rack and a Tempt with Discovery that I'm thinking about adding. I'm just not sure yet what to cut.
Tempt with Discovery is truly an amazing card in multiplayer. If we can fetch 2-5 lands with it it gets hard for the opponent to keep up with the deck.
About Profound Journey, since it is just 1 mana higher than Obzedat's Aid CMC, and we have so many great 5-drop walkers, it is worthy the cost.
And on the terms of Incremental advantage engines:
Sarkhan Unbroken2GUR
+1: Draw a card, then add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
-2: Put a 4/4 Red Dragon token with flying onto the battlefield.
-8: Search your library for any number of dragon creature cards and put them onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.
Starting Loyalty: 4
Initial reactions:
He falls into the list of great planeswalkers, but not excellent planeswalkers. For all intents and purposes, he's another version of Xenagos, the Reveler and Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury in that we want the first two abilities, but the deck is built to work without their ultimate.
Narset is good to test because she's a possible incremental advantage engine. Sarkhan Unbroken is a definite advantage engine. And the mana boost is... not negligible.
Flying 4/4 Dragons. I think those are some of the best tokens we've gotten on a planeswalker yet.
His plus is the first planeswalker that's brought Rings of Brighthearth to mind before afterthoughts.
Being a better fit in Tribal dragons doesn't mean that we can't get decent use out of it.
Also, DFC planeswalkers? Huh. Neat. But their use is going to depend mostly on whether their creature sides are worth playing.
Liliana, Heretical Healer1BB
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
Lifelink
Whenever another non-token creature you control dies, exile Liliana, Heretical Healer then return her to the battlefield transformed under her owner's control. If you do, put a 2/2 black Zombie token onto the battlefield.
2/3
|| Liliana, Defiant Necromancer
+2: Each player discards a card.
-X: Return target non-legendary creature card with converted mana cost X from your graveyard to the battlefield under your control.
-8: You get an Emblem with "Whenever a creature dies, return it to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next End Step.
Starting Loyalty: 3
Intial thoughts:
We don't play a deck that can fulfill the transform trigger, no matter how tempting that emblem is.
[quote from="FunkyDragon »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/216876-5-color-planeswalker-proliferation?comment=115"][quote from="Trifas »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/216876-5-color-planeswalker-proliferation?comment=114"]
Tempt with Discovery is truly an amazing card in multiplayer. If we can fetch 2-5 lands with it it gets hard for the opponent to keep up with the deck.
About Profound Journey, since it is just 1 mana higher than Obzedat's Aid CMC, and we have so many great 5-drop walkers, it is worthy the cost.
I agree that Profound Jorney is better than Obzedat's Aid, but I never ran Obzedat's Aid in my deck. They're both cards to consider, but I don't know if I'll find a place in my deck for them.
And on the terms of Incremental advantage engines:
Sarkhan Unbroken2GUR
+1: Draw a card, then add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
-2: Put a 4/4 Red Dragon token with flying onto the battlefield.
-8: Search your library for any number of dragon creature cards and put them onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.
Starting Loyalty: 4
Initial reactions:
He falls into the list of great planeswalkers, but not excellent planeswalkers. For all intents and purposes, he's another version of Xenagos, the Reveler and Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury in that we want the first two abilities, but the deck is built to work without their ultimate.
Narset is good to test because she's a possible incremental advantage engine. Sarkhan Unbroken is a definite advantage engine. And the mana boost is... not negligible.
Flying 4/4 Dragons. I think those are some of the best tokens we've gotten on a planeswalker yet.
His plus is the first planeswalker that's brought Rings of Brighthearth to mind before afterthoughts.
Being a better fit in Tribal dragons doesn't mean that we can't get decent use out of it.
Also, DFC planeswalkers? Huh. Neat. But their use is going to depend mostly on whether their creature sides are worth playing.
Liliana, Heretical Healer1BB
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
Lifelink
Whenever another non-token creature you control dies, exile Liliana, Heretical Healer then return her to the battlefield transformed under her owner's control. If you do, put a 2/2 black Zombie token onto the battlefield.
2/3
|| Liliana, Defiant Necromancer
+2: Each player discards a card.
-X: Return target non-legendary creature card with converted mana cost X from your graveyard to the battlefield under your control.
-8: You get an Emblem with "Whenever a creature dies, return it to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next End Step.
Starting Loyalty: 3
Intial thoughts:
We don't play a deck that can fulfill the transform trigger, no matter how tempting that emblem is.
Sarkhan is amazing. If I get a copy, he's going straight in my Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck, where all three abilities are awesome (the ultimate pretty much wins the game). A second copy would likely end up in Superfriends, as the first two abilities are totally awesome.
As for DFC Legends flipping to planeswalkers, I've been saying that they should do that type of mechanic to show a planeswalker discovering their spark since the Kamigawa flip legends. Glad they are actually doing it. Liliana is very exciting for other decks (like my Ghost Council ETB deck and my Jarad graveyard deck), but she does nothing for my version of Superfriends. Maybe one of the other four will, though.
Now lets talk about the cards we don't like from DTK. Dragonlord Silumgar and Silumgar's Command are not cool. Losing one of our planeswalkers right before it can ultimate could be devastating (especially Narset). Having one spell counter a planeswalker and blow up a second is also not very appealing. I know planeswalkers are powerful, but it annoys me how much planeswalker-specific hate they have been printing lately. As if efficient creatures and burn were not enough.
Hey Funky! The deck is awesome! Very Impressed. I'm trying to get a feel of how competitive the deck is. I've looked over other superfriends lists, such as the one that is a primer and I just don't feel like some his choices are the greatest. How would you rate the deck 1 being the worst 10 being the most competitive? I know it varies on the meta but just a general rating would be great! Oh and I love the way you've built your deck with the proliferate theme!
I can understand certain exclusions that would put superfriends to the very top of the hate list which would normally include mass creature and land destruction with a board of planeswalkers and extra turns, but why no Omniscience??
What are cards that you are missing that you would directly replace with better cards?? I see you have a want list but I feel as if thats not completely accurate with certain lands not being included and fetch's not included in the deck!? Sensei's!?
I'm trying to get a feel of how competitive the deck is... How would you rate the deck 1 being the worst 10 being the most competitive? I know it varies on the meta but just a general rating would be great!... I can understand certain exclusions that would put superfriends to the very top of the hate list which would normally include mass creature and land destruction with a board of planeswalkers and extra turns, but why no Omniscience?? What are cards that you are missing that you would directly replace with better cards?? I see you have a want list but I feel as if thats not completely accurate with certain lands not being included and fetch's not included in the deck!? Sensei's!?
As you said, competitive is a matter of meta. In my meta, it's competitive enough to often win against 3-4 other players who start the game knowing what my deck is capable of. The deck's biggest weakness is that it takes time to develop a board presence, but given that time, it powers through most games. I'd say it is one of the more powerful decks I have built, and I've built a ton (over 40 EDH decks so far).
If I wanted to make it more powerful/competitive, I could take three different approaches.
- More tutors - Consistency is key to being competitive. Vampiric Tutor and Enlightened Tutor would be great, allowing me to adapt to the board better or to ramp into Mirari's Wake, etc for a more explosive opening.
- Game locks - Obliterate and friends to guarantee our opponents get reset while our planeswalkers keep ticking towards their ultimates.
- More turns - Extra turns are great, letting us ramp ahead of opponents, dig for answers, and build loyalty as they sit there doing nothing.
That being said, I try to keep my deck balanced to my meta and fun to play. I have a few tutors, but one of the reasons I like EDH is because not every game plays the same. Too many tutors homogenize gameplay, taking away some of the fun of a 100 card singleton format. Obliterate is powerful and almost guarantees us a win, but I don't usually enjoy that kind of game, whether I am on the giving or receiving side. And extra turns are okay on occasion, but I can't stand sitting there while someone else plays solitaire, and I don't want to be that guy.
As for Omniscience, I had considered it, but there are a few issues. First I only have one way to cheat the cost (which is pretty high), so I'd usually rather have something more castable. Second, Omniscience by itself does nothing. This is a card that really works best when you have a full grip of cards; topdecking sucks, and with only one spell per turn, if you could afford to pay for Omniscience, you can afford to pay for any other spell in the deck. A few games ago, I cast Decree of Pain on a fairly full board, and Omniscience would have rocked, but not every game is like that. Ultimately, Omniscience fell victim to the same dilemma I have over every card - if I put this in, what do I cut?!. With a cap of 100 cards, many that I would like to add get rejected in favor of those I like more.
Sensei's Diving Top would be nice, and if I could trade for one, I would. For now, I just acquired a Scroll Rack that I'm trying to make room for. While Rack gives me more card variety, Top is less vulnerable to removal.
The only other cards I am looking to add currently are the Zendikar fetches (which hopefully get reprinted in Battle for Zendikar so the price drops) and some of the aforementioned new planeswalkers. Possibly Genesis Wave or Yawgmoth's Will - still undecided. I feel like the main shell of this deck is where I want it, and it is seriously hard to decide what to drop each time I go to add something.
One more thought on tuning the deck - there are a number of cards that I have still not seen in my hand since adding them to the deck (Teferi, Ugin, and Academy Rector all come to mind), despite playing a lot of games. This has caused me to realize that a fun deck does not have to have every good card, as you may or may not even see them. A competitive deck does, however, because it needs to play well regardless of which cards it draws. Just my two cents. It really depends on what your goal is. Right now, I want a balance between the two.
I completely agree. I stay away from the extra turns (especially since I play two headed) and I completely stay away from obliterate like effects. I love how you tackle superfriends from a slightly different angle then most with the proliferate spells. Which has gotten me interested! >:) The only thing that really bothers me is just the land base... why not the Innistrad and core set duals over basics? Rootbound Crag and all that. Wouldn't that be a lot better then basics? I understand a lot of your creatures fetch the basics for you maybe helping you ramp? Is that the goal? Ramping over more consistent colors? Not everyone can afford 10 old dual lands which is why I understand when I see most 5 color decks with the cheap duals that come in tapped if ur missing the correct land as well as reflecting pools and such.
The only thing that really bothers me is just the land base... why not the Innistrad and core set duals over basics? Rootbound Crag and all that. Wouldn't that be a lot better then basics? I understand a lot of your creatures fetch the basics for you maybe helping you ramp? Is that the goal? Ramping over more consistent colors? Not everyone can afford 10 old dual lands which is why I understand when I see most 5 color decks with the cheap duals that come in tapped if ur missing the correct land as well as reflecting pools and such.
Collective Voyage Veteran Explorer Ruination Magus of the Moon Back to Basics Blood Moon Wave of Vitriol
...and friends
These are some of the reasons I run basics. In a meta where I never ran into them, all duals would be great. But if even one of them lands (which does happen in my meta), I don't want to lose because A) all of my opponents ramp while I don't or B) I have no more land to produce mana. You are also correct that I have cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Farhaven Elf, and Solemn Simulacrum - basic land ramp is often more efficient than non-basic, and I find ramp to be just as important as color fixing. And, yes, the original duals are better than the shocklands, but while I managed to trade for a full set of shocks, I find it unlikely that that will happen with the originals.
A deck that ran 10 original diuals, 10 shocklands, 5-10 fetchlands, and the Rootbound Crag cycle should ideally never have color issues (barring the cards mentioned above), but the truth is I almost never have color issues with just 10 shocks and 5 fetches. Even before I ran those lands, I usually didn't have color issues. I've just upgraded as I was able to trade, and I have been happy with the increased consistency (manabase is one area where I always want consistency). If I had one complaint about my manabase, it's that I don't always ramp as quickly as I'd like (needs more quantity even if the colors are right).
The general does a remarkable job of protecting them as he really isn't worth wasting removal on, and most people dont want to waste attacks into an obvious fog, so they attack elsewhere. I've noticed that if doubling season resolves unanswered, you basically win. I had one match where I played Ugin into a doubling season, ultimated him, and put seven more 'walkers into play, all of which ultimated themselves.
I'm testing a similar deck, and it's fun!, but sometimes need more draw engine. In late game, drawing lands and ramp isn't fun...
I add: Ward of Bones , Portcullis , Meekstone , Inexorable Tide and Pernicious Deed (walkers lives!)
A buddy of mine plays Cromat in EDH, where basically it is 5C planeswalkers. I have 7 edh decks built to do different things (obviously) but also with different intentions. Some of my decks I have put a $20 cap on (to help play against newer players), I have decks with no dual lands (again for newer players), and I have decks that are worth several thousand dollars (duals, foil fetches, shocks, drains, etc) to play at a higher level. I only play my higher powered decks against him, and will play 3 player where 2 of us are player higher power decks against him, and generally even when we team up on him, he still beats us.
I have no idea why people don't think 5 color planeswalkers is good in EDH? It is VERY expensive (especially his as he plays full set of duals, and about 90% of the other cards are foiled), but besides the price tag, I see no reason why someone wouldn't be interested in playing it. It is VERY strong. The synergy can just be sick.
I notice the question on tuck. I personally HATE it, but my buddy says he still plans to keep 3 or 4 of his currently 5 tuck spells, pulling both hinder and spell crumple, and replacing one with dissipate, and the other with something else he hasn't decided on. Tuck can still be quite good, it just isn't as good. It still gets rid of stuff you don't want reanimator, or regrowth etc to get back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I basically only play EDH:
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
The general does a remarkable job of protecting them as he really isn't worth wasting removal on, and most people dont want to waste attacks into an obvious fog, so they attack elsewhere. I've noticed that if doubling season resolves unanswered, you basically win. I had one match where I played Ugin into a doubling season, ultimated him, and put seven more 'walkers into play, all of which ultimated themselves.
I hope someday to do that with Ugin, but for now I would settle for actually drawing him in a game.
I'm testing a similar deck, and it's fun!, but sometimes need more draw engine. In late game, drawing lands and ramp isn't fun...
I add: Ward of Bones , Portcullis , Meekstone , Inexorable Tide and Pernicious Deed (walkers lives!)
Obliterate and friends are powerful and will usually hand you the game. My meta is opposed to those kinds of cards, but if they work in your meta, I say run them. With just one of two planeswalkers on the board, you should be able to dominate.
What are your thoughts on the tuck change? Worth keeping Terminus and hallowed burial?
Absolutely worth keeping. I will likely remove Spell Crumple and Hinder from a few of my other decks, but Terminus and Hallowed Burial do a lot more than just nerf one general. They are mass removal that gets around Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Darksteel Forge, and other indestructible issues. They also wipe the board without triggering "goes to graveyard" abilities. I am disappointed by the rule change - it was a good way to deal with problem commanders and really separated good deck builders from bad ones (if every deck you build deck is a glass cannon that can't run without the general, I consider it bad deck-building - but in the end, it's still the same game, and I'll probably still Humility your general.
A buddy of mine plays Cromat in EDH, where basically it is 5C planeswalkers. I have 7 edh decks built to do different things (obviously) but also with different intentions. Some of my decks I have put a $20 cap on (to help play against newer players), I have decks with no dual lands (again for newer players), and I have decks that are worth several thousand dollars (duals, foil fetches, shocks, drains, etc) to play at a higher level. I only play my higher powered decks against him, and will play 3 player where 2 of us are player higher power decks against him, and generally even when we team up on him, he still beats us.
I have no idea why people don't think 5 color planeswalkers is good in EDH? It is VERY expensive (especially his as he plays full set of duals, and about 90% of the other cards are foiled), but besides the price tag, I see no reason why someone wouldn't be interested in playing it. It is VERY strong. The synergy can just be sick.
I notice the question on tuck. I personally HATE it, but my buddy says he still plans to keep 3 or 4 of his currently 5 tuck spells, pulling both hinder and spell crumple, and replacing one with dissipate, and the other with something else he hasn't decided on. Tuck can still be quite good, it just isn't as good. It still gets rid of stuff you don't want reanimator, or regrowth etc to get back.
I also have several different decks intended to do different things. This deck is one of my favorites, and it is certainly powerful, but I would get bored if it was all I played.
I unfortunately did not open a Narset or Sarkhan at the release, but I did manage to trade for a second copy of Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury, as well as a copy of Genesis Wave. Now I am in the frustrating position of trying to figure out what to cut.
Still haven't decided what to cut, but the issue has been compounded, as I was able to trade for a Narset Transcendent last night. (still waiting for Sarkhan)
Replenish works so well, because enchantments like Doubling Season and Mirari's Wake and Maelstrom Nexus are must-kills in my meta. I love having an Oblivion Ring and Pernicious Deed return for a second helping of tears. I also run Skyshroud Claim as a ramper, because I use the ABU duals and all the Shocks, plus if you have a mana doubler on the board it's a free cast since they come in untapped.
Ugin seems like he's going to be an auto-card in a lot of decks, this one especially. He's being called the anti-Bolas and Doubling Season makes him disgustingly broken. Boros Charm saved my ass twice (once because a guy played Armageddon after summoning a monster token army) and once because Terastodon tried to take out Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, Tamiyo, The Moon Sage and Teferi, Temporal Archmage in one stroke. The disappointment was priceless, especially considering it was against the person who suggested I run Boros Charm!!
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1 Raging Ravine
1 Karn liberated
1 Windswept Heath
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
I dropped Karn because I only use one of his abilities, where I will likely use all three of Ugin's. I'm pretty excited and can't wait to play it soon.
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1 Comeuppance
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I actually managed to trade for a Maze of Ith, so I dropped Comeuppance - I never even drew it to try it out, but the repeatability of Maze seems good.
Also, when played last night, someone hit me with a kicked Sadistic Sacrament on turn 4, which totally wrecked my deck. I made sure to kill him (Nicol Bolas stole a 10/10 doublestrike Hydra while someone had a double damage enchantment on the field), but then I was out of the game.
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Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
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But most of the time I just use her as a Naturalize. I like her because it is a reliable way to remove enchantments/artifacts as she doesn't depend of a second card to trigger the ability. Also, she can do other things if the board situation does not require me to Naturalize things. On the other hand, Aura Shards is cheaper and can trigger multiple times.
Edit: Btw, here's my current list. Once again, thanks for the excellent topic, it really helped me to build it
1 Sliver Queen
// Lands
3 Forest
1 Kher Keep
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Vivid Meadow
1 Swamp
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Mountain
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Vivid Grove
1 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Crag
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 Vault of Whispers
1 City of Brass
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Tree of Tales
1 Ancient Den
1 Savage Lands
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Seaside Citadel
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Jungle Shrine
// Creatures
1 Thrummingbird
1 Viral Drake
1 Eternal Witness
1 Spike Weaver
1 Wood Elves
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Shriekmaw
1 Desolation Giant
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Clever Impersonator
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Austere Command
1 The Chain Veil
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Doubling Season
1 Volt Charge
1 Tezzeret's Gambit
1 Spread the Sickness
1 Coalition Relic
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Bloom
1 Awakening Zone
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Astral Cornucopia
1 Recross the Paths
1 Farseek
1 Obzedat's Aid
1 Wargate
1 Inexorable Tide
1 Grim Affliction
1 Fuel for the Cause
1 Contagion Engine
1 Contagion Clasp
1 Terminus
1 Rout
// Walkers
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Karn Liberated
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Gideon Jura
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Chandra Nalaar
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Liliana Vess
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Sorin Markov
1 Ral Zarek
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Ajani Steadfast
1 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
1 Teferi, Temporal Archmage
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
Thanks,
-AW
Narset Transcendent 2WU
+1: Look at the top card of your library. If it is a noncreature, nonland card, you may reveal it and put it in your hand.
-2: When you cast your next instant or sorcery this turn, it gains rebound.
-9: Your opponents can't cast noncreature spells.
Loyalty: 6
Things off the top of my head:
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Also, I may not have all that many instants and sorceries, but rebounding proliferate is always welcome. Rebounding a wrath is hilarious - no one will want to drop creatures between the original wrath and the rebound, essentially buying you another turn against creature decks.
60-card duel or multiplayer? I'd be curious to see that. Just bear in mind that the scores for each walker will vary based on format/play style.
No problem. I really love playing this deck. Question about your build: you have three different versions of Garruk and three different versions of Ajani - do you frequently run into problems where you can't cast one from your hand without losing another on your table? I had issues with that a lot more before I cut down to only two variations of each walker. Whicj is sad, because I'd love to include others.
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It happens some times, but not very often. In some situations I just play the walker on my hand and let the older one go (usually with 4CMC Garruk, that helps with the mana in the early-mid game into 5CMC or 7CMC Garruks that put more pressure on the board).
But since we keep getting new walkers to add to the deck, those "three of" are the first candidates for getting cut and leave room for the new friends.
Narset seems great, but I'm not very sure she is what my deck currently needs. Her first ability will net me a card around 50% of the time.
Her second ability interacts pretty well with around 15+ spells on my deck. But most of the effects would bee recursive wraths (which is not that bad) or recursive land fetch (also good, but not THAT relevant). But I guess once with her in the deck a few adjustments can be made so the other cards synergizes better with her.
Another Dragons of Tarkir card I'd like to sse in the deck is Profound Journey. It's a little m bictore expensive than Obzedat's Aid but takes two thinks
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
Oh - and I traded for a Scroll Rack and a Tempt with Discovery that I'm thinking about adding. I'm just not sure yet what to cut.
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Tempt with Discovery is truly an amazing card in multiplayer. If we can fetch 2-5 lands with it it gets hard for the opponent to keep up with the deck.
About Profound Journey, since it is just 1 mana higher than Obzedat's Aid CMC, and we have so many great 5-drop walkers, it is worthy the cost.
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
Sarkhan Unbroken 2GUR
+1: Draw a card, then add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
-2: Put a 4/4 Red Dragon token with flying onto the battlefield.
-8: Search your library for any number of dragon creature cards and put them onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.
Starting Loyalty: 4
Initial reactions:
Also, DFC planeswalkers? Huh. Neat. But their use is going to depend mostly on whether their creature sides are worth playing.
Liliana, Heretical Healer 1BB
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
Lifelink
Whenever another non-token creature you control dies, exile Liliana, Heretical Healer then return her to the battlefield transformed under her owner's control. If you do, put a 2/2 black Zombie token onto the battlefield.
2/3
||
Liliana, Defiant Necromancer
+2: Each player discards a card.
-X: Return target non-legendary creature card with converted mana cost X from your graveyard to the battlefield under your control.
-8: You get an Emblem with "Whenever a creature dies, return it to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next End Step.
Starting Loyalty: 3
Intial thoughts:
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Sarkhan is amazing. If I get a copy, he's going straight in my Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck, where all three abilities are awesome (the ultimate pretty much wins the game). A second copy would likely end up in Superfriends, as the first two abilities are totally awesome.
As for DFC Legends flipping to planeswalkers, I've been saying that they should do that type of mechanic to show a planeswalker discovering their spark since the Kamigawa flip legends. Glad they are actually doing it. Liliana is very exciting for other decks (like my Ghost Council ETB deck and my Jarad graveyard deck), but she does nothing for my version of Superfriends. Maybe one of the other four will, though.
Now lets talk about the cards we don't like from DTK. Dragonlord Silumgar and Silumgar's Command are not cool. Losing one of our planeswalkers right before it can ultimate could be devastating (especially Narset). Having one spell counter a planeswalker and blow up a second is also not very appealing. I know planeswalkers are powerful, but it annoys me how much planeswalker-specific hate they have been printing lately. As if efficient creatures and burn were not enough.
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I can understand certain exclusions that would put superfriends to the very top of the hate list which would normally include mass creature and land destruction with a board of planeswalkers and extra turns, but why no Omniscience??
What are cards that you are missing that you would directly replace with better cards?? I see you have a want list but I feel as if thats not completely accurate with certain lands not being included and fetch's not included in the deck!? Sensei's!?
As you said, competitive is a matter of meta. In my meta, it's competitive enough to often win against 3-4 other players who start the game knowing what my deck is capable of. The deck's biggest weakness is that it takes time to develop a board presence, but given that time, it powers through most games. I'd say it is one of the more powerful decks I have built, and I've built a ton (over 40 EDH decks so far).
If I wanted to make it more powerful/competitive, I could take three different approaches.
- More tutors - Consistency is key to being competitive. Vampiric Tutor and Enlightened Tutor would be great, allowing me to adapt to the board better or to ramp into Mirari's Wake, etc for a more explosive opening.
- Game locks - Obliterate and friends to guarantee our opponents get reset while our planeswalkers keep ticking towards their ultimates.
- More turns - Extra turns are great, letting us ramp ahead of opponents, dig for answers, and build loyalty as they sit there doing nothing.
That being said, I try to keep my deck balanced to my meta and fun to play. I have a few tutors, but one of the reasons I like EDH is because not every game plays the same. Too many tutors homogenize gameplay, taking away some of the fun of a 100 card singleton format. Obliterate is powerful and almost guarantees us a win, but I don't usually enjoy that kind of game, whether I am on the giving or receiving side. And extra turns are okay on occasion, but I can't stand sitting there while someone else plays solitaire, and I don't want to be that guy.
As for Omniscience, I had considered it, but there are a few issues. First I only have one way to cheat the cost (which is pretty high), so I'd usually rather have something more castable. Second, Omniscience by itself does nothing. This is a card that really works best when you have a full grip of cards; topdecking sucks, and with only one spell per turn, if you could afford to pay for Omniscience, you can afford to pay for any other spell in the deck. A few games ago, I cast Decree of Pain on a fairly full board, and Omniscience would have rocked, but not every game is like that. Ultimately, Omniscience fell victim to the same dilemma I have over every card - if I put this in, what do I cut?!. With a cap of 100 cards, many that I would like to add get rejected in favor of those I like more.
Sensei's Diving Top would be nice, and if I could trade for one, I would. For now, I just acquired a Scroll Rack that I'm trying to make room for. While Rack gives me more card variety, Top is less vulnerable to removal.
The only other cards I am looking to add currently are the Zendikar fetches (which hopefully get reprinted in Battle for Zendikar so the price drops) and some of the aforementioned new planeswalkers. Possibly Genesis Wave or Yawgmoth's Will - still undecided. I feel like the main shell of this deck is where I want it, and it is seriously hard to decide what to drop each time I go to add something.
One more thought on tuning the deck - there are a number of cards that I have still not seen in my hand since adding them to the deck (Teferi, Ugin, and Academy Rector all come to mind), despite playing a lot of games. This has caused me to realize that a fun deck does not have to have every good card, as you may or may not even see them. A competitive deck does, however, because it needs to play well regardless of which cards it draws. Just my two cents. It really depends on what your goal is. Right now, I want a balance between the two.
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Collective Voyage
Veteran Explorer
Ruination
Magus of the Moon
Back to Basics
Blood Moon
Wave of Vitriol
...and friends
These are some of the reasons I run basics. In a meta where I never ran into them, all duals would be great. But if even one of them lands (which does happen in my meta), I don't want to lose because A) all of my opponents ramp while I don't or B) I have no more land to produce mana. You are also correct that I have cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Farhaven Elf, and Solemn Simulacrum - basic land ramp is often more efficient than non-basic, and I find ramp to be just as important as color fixing. And, yes, the original duals are better than the shocklands, but while I managed to trade for a full set of shocks, I find it unlikely that that will happen with the originals.
A deck that ran 10 original diuals, 10 shocklands, 5-10 fetchlands, and the Rootbound Crag cycle should ideally never have color issues (barring the cards mentioned above), but the truth is I almost never have color issues with just 10 shocks and 5 fetches. Even before I ran those lands, I usually didn't have color issues. I've just upgraded as I was able to trade, and I have been happy with the increased consistency (manabase is one area where I always want consistency). If I had one complaint about my manabase, it's that I don't always ramp as quickly as I'd like (needs more quantity even if the colors are right).
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The general does a remarkable job of protecting them as he really isn't worth wasting removal on, and most people dont want to waste attacks into an obvious fog, so they attack elsewhere. I've noticed that if doubling season resolves unanswered, you basically win. I had one match where I played Ugin into a doubling season, ultimated him, and put seven more 'walkers into play, all of which ultimated themselves.
I'm testing a similar deck, and it's fun!, but sometimes need more draw engine. In late game, drawing lands and ramp isn't fun...
I add: Ward of Bones , Portcullis , Meekstone , Inexorable Tide and Pernicious Deed (walkers lives!)
i'm thinking add Jokulhaups , Obliterate and/or Decree of Annihilation , all walkers live, and clean the board , and Sphinx's Revelation
I have no idea why people don't think 5 color planeswalkers is good in EDH? It is VERY expensive (especially his as he plays full set of duals, and about 90% of the other cards are foiled), but besides the price tag, I see no reason why someone wouldn't be interested in playing it. It is VERY strong. The synergy can just be sick.
I notice the question on tuck. I personally HATE it, but my buddy says he still plans to keep 3 or 4 of his currently 5 tuck spells, pulling both hinder and spell crumple, and replacing one with dissipate, and the other with something else he hasn't decided on. Tuck can still be quite good, it just isn't as good. It still gets rid of stuff you don't want reanimator, or regrowth etc to get back.
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
Obliterate and friends are powerful and will usually hand you the game. My meta is opposed to those kinds of cards, but if they work in your meta, I say run them. With just one of two planeswalkers on the board, you should be able to dominate.
Absolutely worth keeping. I will likely remove Spell Crumple and Hinder from a few of my other decks, but Terminus and Hallowed Burial do a lot more than just nerf one general. They are mass removal that gets around Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Darksteel Forge, and other indestructible issues. They also wipe the board without triggering "goes to graveyard" abilities. I am disappointed by the rule change - it was a good way to deal with problem commanders and really separated good deck builders from bad ones (if every deck you build deck is a glass cannon that can't run without the general, I consider it bad deck-building - but in the end, it's still the same game, and I'll probably still Humility your general.
I also have several different decks intended to do different things. This deck is one of my favorites, and it is certainly powerful, but I would get bored if it was all I played.
I unfortunately did not open a Narset or Sarkhan at the release, but I did manage to trade for a second copy of Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury, as well as a copy of Genesis Wave. Now I am in the frustrating position of trying to figure out what to cut.
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The list of possible cuts includes Volt Charge and Land Tax, and for planeswalkers, I am considering cutting Ajani Vengeant, Chandra the Firebrand, Garruk Relentless, and Liliana of the Veil. I cringed as I typed each one of those. I think I will increase my planeswalker count from 20 to 21-22.
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