MTG Salvation

Quote from spentbullets »

Superfriends is fun. Any particular reason you're not running Sol Ring?

Colorless mana isn't nearly as good in five color, and while it can be powerful early game, it's a pretty dead draw late game. I tried to limit the number of mana rocks, and the three I kept all produce any color and have another advantage (indestructible, fixes all my lands, or multiplies mana production with proliferate). At the end of the day, Sol Ring just gives me two colorless, which only helps if I already have the colors I need and doesn't help if I have excess mana.

I'd still recommend running it, I've have won so many games due to a Turn 1 Sol Ring and Turn 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor/Elspeth, Knight-Errant.

Agreed. An 8-13% chance (initial 7 + partial mulligan + 1st draw) of playing a turn 1 Sol Ring is totally worth running it. Late-game you should already have the colors you need so the 3-drop omnicolor rocks will be just as dead as a Sol Ring, or possibly even more so due to the 3-for-1 return in your mana investment.

An early-game Sol Ring has determined the winner in countless EDH games at the tables I frequent. It's just too powerful not to run!

Farseek No lie, I actually never knew about this card, totally swapping out Skyshroud Claim for it. I'll post up mine in a day or two to see what people think.

Quote from FunkyDragon »

Quote from spentbullets »

Superfriends is fun. Any particular reason you're not running Sol Ring?

Colorless mana isn't nearly as good in five color, and while it can be powerful early game, it's a pretty dead draw late game. I tried to limit the number of mana rocks, and the three I kept all produce any color and have another advantage (indestructible, fixes all my lands, or multiplies mana production with proliferate). At the end of the day, Sol Ring just gives me two colorless, which only helps if I already have the colors I need and doesn't help if I have excess mana.

I agree but it works well with Rings of Brighthearth if your playing that and early Jace, the crack sculpter, again if you run him

I actually got my hands on Academy Rector (MWAHAHAHA!!!), so I'm looking to open up another slot. And there's no point in stopping at one slot because Khans of Tarkir brings more goodies.

Khans of Tarkir Superfriends Review

Unfortunately, the two planeswalkers are both duds when it comes to superfriends.

Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker (4/10) - This incarnation of Sarkhan is pretty bad for this deck. A 4/4 attacker, even indestructible, is not where this deck wants to go. The other abilities aren't all that great either.

Sorin, Solemn Visitor (5.5/10) - This Sorin is sadly outclassed by Lord of Innistrad. The lifelink isn't all that great, and having to lose loyalty counters to produce tokens is not very good. His ultimate could certainly be useful, but it's not worth building up to.

On the other hand, there are several stand-out cards that can help various superfriends builds.

End Hostilities - Wraths are always welcome, and this one has the added advantage of shutting down voltron decks. I always hate it when I wrath just to have them drop another creature, equip two swords and a Jitte, and then swing in for a ton of damage. This gets rid of not only the creatures, but also their equipments and totem armors. It still takes out other equipment if the creature is indestructible.

Duneblast - Another wrath that could leave your general still standing.

Clever Impersonator - This is awesome. I have been considering adding Phyrexian Metamorph for added utility, but Clever Impersonator blows it out of the water. This can be a second Doubling Season, Rings of Brighthearth, etc. or can clone a planeswalker - sure, you lose the original, but activating another loyalty ability that turn can be worth it.

Quiet Contemplation - Not as exciting as the others, but in an enchantress/pillowfort build, it can lock out attackers until you have more permanent answers.

Fetchlands - Definitely cards I will be looking to trade for/hoping to open. These are better when you have dual lands.

Wedge lands - Frontier Bivouac and friends are nice for budget mana fixing

Made one change and am waiting to make two others, once I get the cards.


Luminarch can be nice, pulling aggression away from my walkers and generating big fliers, but more often than not, it got blown up before it went online. Rector is flat out amazing as the blocker you don't mind losing, fetching Mirari's Wake, Doubling Season, Humility, Aura Shards, etc. and putting it on the battlefield.

I'm also thinking that I can cut one mana-fixer (like Pilgrim's Eye) for every two fetchlands that I get my hands on. It'll be nice to add a couple more planeswalkers.

I recently build a similar deck with Sliver Queen + proliferation as commander. Your topic really helped both getting me excited for the deck and get ideas for it. Thanks for all the effort!

I'm really excited for what Commander 2014 will bring for the deck. Teferi seems a "must add".
Ob Nixilis didn't feel very useful for the deck's purpose. A 5/5 flier is always nice, but it is hard to get good advantage from the other abilities.
Freyalise feels like nice option. Though the deck can't really abuse from the ultimate, spamming mana dorks and getting free artifact/enchantment removal can't be bad.

Thought I would share my list. I really do like it quite a bit. I don't lean on the proliferate as much, and I have much more spot removal. Here we go:



I have played this deck and become so attached to some of these cards, so I feel my mind is clouded by memories.
Cards that I really want to add, but can't find cuts for (hopefully you handsome scholars can help me out here!):

• Pernicious Deed -> Maelstrom Pulse?
  
• Wargate -> Praetor's Grasp?
  
• Collective Restraint -> Gideon Jura?
  
• Jace, the Mind Sculptor -> ???
  
• Garruk, Apex Predator -> ???
  
• Omniscience -> Mirari's Wake?
  
• Villainous Wealth -> Savor the Moment?

Edit: How rude of me! Of course I should add to the conversation before I expect to turn attention towards myself. I should mention I used to use a heavy proliferate theme. Some awesome cards there include: Mind Unbound, Astral Cornucopia, Assemble the Legion, Gilder Bairn, Inexorable Tide, and the Hickory Woodlot cycle.

Quote from Trifas »

I recently build a similar deck with Sliver Queen + proliferation as commander. Your topic really helped both getting me excited for the deck and get ideas for it. Thanks for all the effort!
I'm really excited for what Commander 2014 will bring for the deck. Teferi seems a "must add".
Ob Nixilis didn't feel very useful for the deck's purpose. A 5/5 flier is always nice, but it is hard to get good advantage from the other abilities.
Freyalise feels like nice option. Though the deck can't really abuse from the ultimate, spamming mana dorks and getting free artifact/enchantment removal can't be bad.

Glad it helped. And I agree on the new walkers. I have to admit, I'm actually a bit disappointed given that Teferi was spoiled first - he set my expectations way too high on the others. Chandra Nalaar has been keeping Teferi's seat warm for him ever since I first saw him - she'll be leaving once I buy the blue deck. Freyalise will be joining my Ezuri deck, and Ob can go sit in a corner for all I care (I also like his second ability; his others, not so much). I'm still hopeful for the other two but really wish the white one was Serra.

Quote from akroma44 »

Thought I would share my list. I really do like it quite a bit. I don't lean on the proliferate as much, and I have much more spot removal. Here we go:
I have played this deck and become so attached to some of these cards, so I feel my mind is clouded by memories.
Cards that I really want to add, but can't find cuts for (hopefully you handsome scholars can help me out here!):

• Pernicious Deed -> Maelstrom Pulse?
  
• Wargate -> Praetor's Grasp?
  
• Collective Restraint -> Gideon Jura?
  
• Jace, the Mind Sculptor -> ???
  
• Garruk, Apex Predator -> ???
  
• Omniscience -> Mirari's Wake?
  
• Villainous Wealth -> Savor the Moment?

Nice decklist. You've got some great tutoring in there. I'll chime in on a few of your potential adds/drops.
Collective Restraint is probably not worth adding, as it only protects you but not your walkers.
Omniscience can be amazing, but if you cut Mirari's Wake, you're going to have a harder time casting it (short of Rectoring it).
Praetor's Grasp and Villainous Wealth both serve the same purpose and, while good cards, may not fit the walker theme as much.
You have two walkers you want to add and one you want to take out - maybe do a straight swap one-for-one.

Thanks, I've been working on it for a while now. I used to be all-in on tutoring for Doubling Season, but that got old really quickly. Doubling Season + Jace, Architect of Thought basically wins the game. If you just want to go for the win, grab Ral Zarek from your own deck and literally anything from your opponents'. Game over. If you want to go infinite with your own cards, Ral + Tamiyo, the Moon Sage is near infinite turns (you would have to be phenomenally unlucky). Ult Ral, get at least 1 turn. Use Ral's -2 ability to kill himself, he goes back to your hand, recast Ral, and Ult again. As long as you get at least one turn each time you ultimate him (31 out of 32 gives at least 1 turn) you go infinite.

This is mostly the reason I play Progenitus, as it is a near guaranteed win once I get infinite turns. Also, she is a total beast.

Other wins with Jace are Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Sarkhan Vol, and Vraska, the Unseen + haste outlet from an opponent.

All five new planeswalkers have been spoiled and, while I am hopeful that the full decklists may reveal another playable or two, I have to say superfriends is disappointed. That's not to say the walkers are bad - I'm looking forward to adding Freyalise to my Ezuri elfball and Nahiri to my Rafiq equipment deck - but Teferi is the only shoe-in. Obviously, in five color, none of the "can be your commander" clauses matter, which proves to be a liability because some were overcosted a little for balance. So let's rank them, shall we?

Teferi, Temporal Archmage (10/10) - You have no idea how close I was to scoring him 11/10, but the cmc left me at a solid 10. Superfriends likes card draw, and untapping 4 permanents is awesome, especially if you can double your mana production and have The Chain Veil or Contagion Engine in play. The ultimate is a dream come true.

Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury (7/10) - Freyalise actually scored better than I expected. Her first two abilities are pretty good - a mana producing token or a Naturalize are always welcome. The trouble is I couldn't picture running this over Aura Shards, which turns every token into a naturalize without costing loyalty. And the ultimate is too variable - sometimes it does nothing, other times it draws lots of cards. I love her for elfball, but I just can't justify cutting anything else to make room in superfriends.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (6/10) - A splashable piece of card filtering, which can be helpful even if it isn't straight up card draw. The second ability is a bit weak because even though we may want to get artifacts back, we don't run enough to guarantee that we can use this ability. Recursion on Rings and our other toys is nice, but overall, his focus just isn't along the theme of this deck.

Nahiri, the Lithomancer (5.5/10) - This girl knows what she wants to do, but unfortunately, it isn't play with other planeswalkers. Awesome in an equipment deck, mediocre in superfriends. She basically just spawns out tokens for us and maybe eventually gives us a sword.

Ob Nixilis of the Black Death (5/10) - It seems sad to score a walker who makes 5/5 flying tokens so low, but I;m not impressed by Ob. His first ability doesn't affect the board and will just draw attention. His second is awesome, provided we do not have Humility in play (imagine paying loyalty and life for a 1/1). And his ultimate is somewhat lacking - either we sac a 1/1 for minimal benefit (I'd rather Skullclamp them), or we are punching a big hole in our defenses.

Anyone feel otherwise?

About to update the deck, and I'm really miffed that I can't find a Teferi for trade. I've got some changes that I've been planning to make and some that are unexpected.



So, I've been looking for fetchlands and lucked out on some trades recently. I'm actually considering cutting the manlands at this point. The fact that they come into play tapped really hurts, and their animate ability is only occasionally useful. I also do not want to cut too many basics. Sidenote - fetches make Rings of Brighthearth even better.

Clever Impersonator is awesome and wants a slot.

Comeuppance is a card that I initially overlooked, but then I saw someone use it to great effect (killing almost 20 attacking creatures while protecting himself and a planeswalker). I figure I'll give it a try.

I did not plan to cut Privileged Position, but last night I was given an offer too good to refuse. Another guy at our game store also built a superfriends deck and was looking through mine for ideas. He really wanted Privileged Position and Academy Rector, and when I told him they were not for trade, he dropped seven shocklands on the table :weird:, saying he didn't care about value but wanted the cards now. I gave in (fortunately had a spare Rector), because free money. Looking at it, I'm not sure if I'll get another Position or not - it's a good card but it's strictly defensive and does not advance my board. I think I'll try running without for a little while.

What do people think about Gift of Estates? It seems like a good budget alternative to Land Tax, as it is a one-shot but it can grab shocklands. It shares the same conditional "if an opponent controls more land than you" clause, but Land Tax often quits performing if you drop the lands it finds.

If you can afford it all 5 color decks should run 10 fetches, 10 shocks, and 10 ABU duals. I run those, 2 man lands(Creeping Tar Pit and Celestial Colonnade), and a few utility lands.

If you want a different un-restricted Gift of Estates effect (which I don't entirely recommend), Shard Convergence is probably much better for you.

Land Tax + Scroll Rack = Awesome.

Quote from Hipster Mike »

If you can afford it all 5 color decks should run 10 fetches, 10 shocks, and 10 ABU duals. I run those, 2 man lands(Creeping Tar Pit and Celestial Colonnade), and a few utility lands.

I am trying to trade for the fetch lands, but I seriously doubt I will ever go for the ABU duals - not only due to ridiculous prices, but also because I think all non-basics would be a liability - I would run either shocks or duals. If you have no non-basic hate in your meta and a full set of each, that's pretty awesome, though.

Quote from akroma44 »

If you want a different un-restricted Gift of Estates effect (which I don't entirely recommend), Shard Convergence is probably much better for you.
LandTax + Scroll Rack = Awesome.

I'm not really a fan of Shard Convergence, even if it gets the job done, simply because it costs 4 mana and doesn't ramp. I do like that it isn't conditional on your opponents' lands, however.
Scroll Rack is pretty awesome. I may have to keep an eye out for one. It can't dodge removal like Sensei's Divining Top, but it does generate better card filtering.

Cast Shard Convergence one time, and you are likely to never miss a land drop for the rest of the game. Skyshroud Claim is probably much better, but this one comes close, for a slower, five color deck.Tempt with Discovery could be an extremely powerful political tool, especially if your opponents play extremely OP lands like Gaea's Cradle and Mishra's Workshop.

Quote from akroma44 »

Tempt with Discovery could be an extremely powerful political tool

I like this one - I think I may need to get a copy. Every time anyone has used it in my playgroup, practically everyone wanted extra land, so the caster usually nets 3-5 land. That kind of ramp is amazing.


Also, I have completed my changes and updated the decklist. I also remembered that I forgot to update when I added End Hostilities.

The fetch lands are stronger because they can grab non-basics and don't have to put things in tapped. And Lavaclaw was just one of the weakest enters tapped lands. I'm still hoping to get my hands on Teferi, Temporal Archmage, Maze of Ith, and the other fetchlands.

Great thread! Honestly, I'd always had this impression that a superfriends list would cost me an arm and a leg. While expensive, it doesn't really seem that insane to build. Especially since I have most of the old Zendikar fetches already.

Planeswalkers do generate a ton of table aggro. Can 5c walkers stand against a whole table decently?

I know mine does unless people target you from the beginning. If they use proper threat assessment, you should do a bit better. Some people like to target planeswalkers for no reason. I guess it depends on how you play the deck.

Quote from Jaytron »

Planeswalkers do generate a ton of table aggro. Can 5c walkers stand against a whole table decently?

That depends on how you and your group interact. As TheEndIsNear pointed out, it depends on whether they use proper threat assessment and how you play the deck. The key to multiplayer is politics more than anything else. I find that in the early game I like to be enough of a threat that they would lose resources coming after me but not so much of a threat that they feel obligated to do so. I rarely draw first blood and will sometimes keep walkers or other pieces in hand rather than commit them to an unsupported board. Let someone else take the heat, and cast a "justified" board wipe to keep things under control. You start developing when it is favorable for you, and then keep doing your thing until you win.

That's not to say that I haven't cast a turn four Humility, which is generally a call to play Archenemy in my meta, but you'll also notice that I don't run Obliterate, Decree of Annihilation, and their ilk. Are they powerful? Yes. Do they let Superfriends win? Yes. But in a non-tournament format, you have to remember that you will be playing these people week in and week out, and if you start playing like that, you just might be hated out of the game every time before you can develop. It comes down to what your playgroup wants to do - mine wants to play epic games where everyone gets to participate.

I love the challenges of Superfriends. It is my favorite deck, and for someone who has built almost 40 Commander decks, that's saying something. I also think it's great that it can be built and adapted for different play styles and budgets.

One of the guys at the local game store has cooked up his own version of this deck, and I wanted to discuss a couple of his card choices. As you'll see, he's focused onto cheating his planeswalkers into play.

Narset, Enlightened Master - Narset has the advantage of repeatability - as long as no one blocks her with lethal damage, destroys her, or drops Humility, which means she may not work well with my strategy. I will admit that Narset as a whole has impressed me - I really underestimated her when she was first spoiled. However, she feels like a "build around me" card.

Maelstrom Wanderer - Wanderer has the advantage of not being completely nerfed by Humility (you may be paying 8 for a non-hasty 1/1, but at least you still get the double cascade) and by the time you wrath, you've already gotten value. The problem is that cascade is hard to control - you may get two great walkers, but you probably will just get random stuff. It would suck to cascade into two versions of the same walker (or different versions of ones already on your table).

Maelstrom Nexus - Nexus avoids most of the issues I've listed for the previous two by the mere fact that it's not a creature. It still has the unreliability of cascade, but at least it is repeatable.

Dont't get me wrong - for some builds, these are going to be amazing. I just have to evaluate them in the context of my non-creature friendly build.

So, what other cards could be used to cheat planeswalkers in?

Thanks to an early Christmas present from a friend, Teferi, Temporal Archmage finally gets to join the rest of the Superfriends. Goodbye, Chandra Nalaar; you will not be missed that much.

Hey, thanks for posting this. I had a lot of these cards laying around (namely the ABU duals and expensive walkers) so I decided to give it a shot. I really like the power this provides! Some games that Sliver Queen is a beast, some games she never sees play. There are SO many options, this deck really requires intimate knowledge of every card you're running. Nothing like casting a Wargate for 7 only to realize Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker costs 8 and you end up getting Aura Shards anyway!

I would suggest Replenish given the huge amount of enchantments this deck runs, plus all the hate that Doubling Season and Mirari's Wake will draw. The other option might be Open the Vaults (which I used a Mindslaver on an opponent who was foolish enough to flash-tease it at me during someone else's turn)

What are your thoughts on utility cards like Yawgmoth's will and Genesis wave?

I personally run a Boros charm because WOW look out for planar cleansing

Again thanks for taking the effort on this, I look forward to evolving with you.

Quote from lanust »

Hey, thanks for posting this. I had a lot of these cards laying around (namely the ABU duals and expensive walkers) so I decided to give it a shot. I really like the power this provides! Some games that Sliver Queen is a beast, some games she never sees play. There are SO many options, this deck really requires intimate knowledge of every card you're running. Nothing like casting a Wargate for 7 only to realize Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker costs 8 and you end up getting Aura Shards anyway!

I would suggest Replenish given the huge amount of enchantments this deck runs, plus all the hate that Doubling Season and Mirari's Wake will draw. The other option might be Open the Vaults (which I used a Mindslaver on an opponent who was foolish enough to flash-tease it at me during someone else's turn)

What are your thoughts on utility cards like Yawgmoth's will and Genesis wave?

I personally run a Boros charm because WOW look out for planar cleansing

Again thanks for taking the effort on this, I look forward to evolving with you.

Lots of great suggestions, but the trouble I always run into is the question of what to cut to make room. If I add too many support cards, I don't have enough for my primary strategy. Boros Charm is a great suggestion (cheap, versatile, powerful), but I haven't seen Planar Cleansing in my meta much until lately. If I start seeing it more, I may decide to run it. Yawgmoth's Will can be great and may be an acceptable replacement for Eternal Witness, especially considering it doesn't get nerfed by Humility. It has the advantage of recurring multiple cards (provided you have the mana) but the disadvantage that it has to be done in the same turn and exile shuts down any future recursion. I've never owned one, but I guess I may start looking to give it a try. Genesis Wave I've never been a big fan of - needs big mana to be good and is too random to be predictable.

I know a card that I need to get now - Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. He's awesome. I'll probably swap him in for Karn once I get a copy. I usually only use Karn for his removal ability and then he dies. Ugin offers burn as a plus ability, mass removal as a minus, and massive card advantage as an ultimate - all three abilities that I would like to run. I'd score him at least an 8/10, probably a 9, but I need to see his $ cost and how much hate he generates. To be fair, he's probably worth all the hate.