I feel this walker is incredibly broken for any SuperFriends deck (especially Atraxa, Praetors' Voice). He provides a chump blocker that flies, can draw a card, and his emblem is beyond broken.
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I feel this walker is incredibly broken for any SuperFriends deck (especially Atraxa, Praetors' Voice). He provides a chump blocker that flies, can draw a card, and his emblem is beyond broken.
He's good; all three abilities are helpful. I just wish the emblem gave a chance to use the permanent - if we fetch a walker, we can't use it until the next turn. Would it be better if it fetched during upkeep?
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Pros
Can generate mana
Proliferation synergy
Doubling Season synergy
Secondary win condition
Cheaper (more value for other cards)
Cons
Only one body
Easily dies to forced sacrifice
Doubling Season synergy
-----> ? ? ?
I'm seriously considering changing general for this deck. A friend convinced me to try Ramos instead of Sliver Queen, so I did for two games last night. Got him out one game, got ten extra mana one time, but it felt pretty good. Much better than casting the Queen out of desperation for blockers. Bear in mind that I only cast my general maybe one out of every five to ten games (really wish there was a more on-theme general). I'm not 100% sold (very small sample size to make a decision), so somebody convince me.
Hello, I'm a long time follower of this thread but a first time poster. I made a Superfriends deck with Ramos at the helm and love it! The counters one him add up fast, I use a lot of card draw spells and effects to essentially have "Superfriends Storm". Utilizing Sunbird's Invocation and Ramos's ability, you can chain together many Planeswalkers and other spells too.
For example, Ramos and Sunbird's are on the field. You cast Ajani Unyeilding, giving Ramos 2 counters and Sunbird trigger for 6, hitting Sarkhan Unbroken and giving Ramos 3 counters. Draw with Sarkhan and get some cards with Ajani and then remove the 5 counters off of Ramos. 10 mana should be enough to get 5 more counters on him to repeat the process. Not even to mention all the proliferate and Doubling Season, it gets out of hand quick.
The Planeswalkers were chosen at random from my deck and honestly as I type this, I'm realizing how good it would be to hit those two walkers in this order
Hello, I'm a long time follower of this thread but a first time poster. I made a Superfriends deck with Ramos at the helm and love it! The counters one him add up fast, I use a lot of card draw spells and effects to essentially have "Superfriends Storm". Utilizing Sunbird's Invocation and Ramos's ability, you can chain together many Planeswalkers and other spells too.
For example, Ramos and Sunbird's are on the field. You cast Ajani Unyeilding, giving Ramos 2 counters and Sunbird trigger for 6, hitting Sarkhan Unbroken and giving Ramos 3 counters. Draw with Sarkhan and get some cards with Ajani and then remove the 5 counters off of Ramos. 10 mana should be enough to get 5 more counters on him to repeat the process. Not even to mention all the proliferate and Doubling Season, it gets out of hand quick.
The Planeswalkers were chosen at random from my deck and honestly as I type this, I'm realizing how good it would be to hit those two walkers in this order
But you can only use Ramos's mana ability once each turn...
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Hello, I'm a long time follower of this thread but a first time poster. I made a Superfriends deck with Ramos at the helm and love it! The counters one him add up fast, I use a lot of card draw spells and effects to essentially have "Superfriends Storm". Utilizing Sunbird's Invocation and Ramos's ability, you can chain together many Planeswalkers and other spells too.
For example, Ramos and Sunbird's are on the field. You cast Ajani Unyeilding, giving Ramos 2 counters and Sunbird trigger for 6, hitting Sarkhan Unbroken and giving Ramos 3 counters. Draw with Sarkhan and get some cards with Ajani and then remove the 5 counters off of Ramos. 10 mana should be enough to get 5 more counters on him to repeat the process. Not even to mention all the proliferate and Doubling Season, it gets out of hand quick.
The Planeswalkers were chosen at random from my deck and honestly as I type this, I'm realizing how good it would be to hit those two walkers in this order
But you can only use Ramos's mana ability once each turn...
That's my bad on my wording, I apologize if I was confusing. I meant repeating the counter shenanigans over a period of turns, you should be able to get at least 5 more counters on Ramos before your turn ends. Then do it on your next turn after a full rotation. I usually get 3-4 planeswalkers out this way, which is why I called it storm.
I'm really liking the idea of Ramos, Dragon Engine. It's easy to cast than Sliver Queen, it's much cheaper as well (Sliver Queen costs more than 7× as much as Ramos), and can continue to help cast walkers. It's also a flyer so it's a better blocker. And not having to use it's counters all at once means that it's a hefty blocker at that, too. You can also include cards like Atraxa, Praetors' Voice to the deck which goes great with planeswalkers and also gives Ramos 4 +1/+1 counters upon casting. Add Odric, Lunarch Marshal to the mix and all the tokens walkers produce get all of Atraxa's keywords which make them more deadly to attackers than sliver tokens would be on their own. Hell, you may not even need to get Sliver Queen entirely rid of. Casting her gives Ramos 5 +1/+1 counters and the slivers she creates become brutal with Atraxa + Odric in play.
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I'm really liking the idea of Ramos, Dragon Engine. It's easy to cast than Sliver Queen, it's much cheaper as well (Sliver Queen costs more than 7× as much as Ramos), and can continue to help cast walkers. It's also a flyer so it's a better blocker. And not having to use it's counters all at once means that it's a hefty blocker at that, too.
Yeah, I weighed my options for a while and then went for it. I traded the queen away for an extra Ramos and a stack of other cards I was looking for, and I haven't regretted it at all. I'm definitely happier with Ramos. I'm sure there will be times when I wish I could go wide, but that was never the queen's main purpose anyway.
Well, the spoiler for Interplanar Beacon is interesting. Should be a cheap card for budget superfriends, and it's not bad for more expensive lists, either. It could gain us 5-10 life or more, and it filters mana for planeswalkers.
And Karn's Bastion is a perfect shoe-in. Repeatable proliferate on a land.
Of the planeswalkers that have been spoiled, I think I like Teferi the most (for Superfriends), but all I imagine is ticking him up over and over, with no ultimate to build to.
If Nicol Bolas, Dragon God ends up being real, though, he would go in for the static ability alone, not to mention the crazy loyalty abilities.
I hate choosing cards to cut, and I think this set may force some really hard cuts.
Let's just talk about Spark Double a minute. I run Clever Impersonator because it's flexible, powerful, and can become anything, even a planeswalker; however, it does this at the cost of the original planeswalker. Spark Double actually gives you a second nonlegendary copy that can sit alongside the original. That's nuts. Even more nuts is I could now have three copies of a planeswalker if I chain it Walker>Spark Double>Clever Impersonator (as a copy of the nonlegendary copy).
Alrighty - we have all the cards from War of the Spark, and it's time to evaluate how good they are for superfriends. 36+ Planeswalkers, 14 Proliferate cards, and a handful of other notable interactions makes this the craziest set ever for our needs.
Let's start with Planeswalkers. I'm going to grade these out of ten points, but the new designs make it a lot more difficult than normal. Static abilities throw everyhing off, as does a lack of ultimates and even a lack of plus abilities. There's really no formula for these scores - it's more of a gut feeling after asking myself these questions:
- How relevant is the static ability?
- How useful are the loyalty abilities?
- Does it help me win?
- Does it protect itself and my other walkers?
- Is it worth paying the mana cost?
- Does it interact well with Doubling Season?
Keep in mind that a walker can get a low score in the context of a superfriends even if it is really good in a different deck; in fact, there are several walkers in this set who would excel in a very focused artifact or creature deck but that just aren't right for us.
Rares first (because they can uptick their loyalty):
Ajani, the Greathearted (4.5/10) - Vigilance and lifegain aren't that useful for us, but the counter ability is great. The main problem is, again, that I need a good board for it to matter, and I should already be winning at that point.
Chandra, Fire Artisan (3/10) - I like her static (actually would love that for all my walkers), and she does offer some card advantage, but she's just not very good.
Domri, Anarch of Bolas (4.5) - Cheap and produces mana, but that's most of his usefulness.
Gideon Blackblade (4/10) - An indestructible creature is nice, but it's only on our turn, and we care more about blcoking than swinging. We also pack board wipes designed to get around indestructible, so there's some anti-synergy there.
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries (3.5/10) - We're not built to win off Labman, we have better card draw walkers, and the mana cost is very heavy blue for a five color deck.
Karn, the Great Creator (3.5/10) - Karn is very artifact-centric and can be amazing, even devestating in the right deck. That just isn't superfriends. His static does offer some opponent hate, but he doesn't really help us win.
Liliana, Dreadhorde General (7.5/10) - Her cmc is a bit high for my taste, but she offers chump blockers, card draw, and a potential win. She's especially good with DS, as it doubles tokens and offers an instant-ult, which should put us far enough ahead to win.
Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God (11/10) - Haha! That's right, we've turned the dial up to eleven. That static ability is a thing of beauty. Beyond that, the plus is great, the minus is useful, and the ult is potentially game-winning the cost is a bit demanding, but I'm totally willing to pay it.
Nissa, Who Shakes the World (3/10) - She's got a good static for decks running shocks or duals, and the ult is amazing, but I don't want to tick her up because it makes my land vulnerable. Short of dropping her on the board with DS already out or some really heavy proliferate, she does nothing for me.
Sarkhan the Masterless (4/10) - The static is not right for superfriends, but the plus is a hilarious potential wincon - unfortunately, it feels like win-more because if I have enough walkers for it to matter, I should be winning already. The tokens are nice.
Teferi, Time Raveler (6/10) - Cheap cmc, relevant static, and a great plus. I've often said that Alchemist's Refuge is the best card in the deck, and being able to tick up his loyalty as I threaten instant-speed boardwipes every turn is great. The minus may or may not be that useful.
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge (0/10 for being promo-only, but 3/10 as a card) - Amazing card in an artifact-centric deck but not in ours.
Ugin, the Ineffable (5.5/10) - His static is near useless for us, but his loyalty abilities do offer chump blockers, card advantage, and removal. I just don't think I'd ever want to spend 6 on it in this deck.
Now the uncommons. These suffer in the scoring because they can only tick down on their own, requiring heavy proliferation to remain meaningful for more than a couple turns.
Angrath, Captain of Chaos (2.5/10) - Relatively useless static for us, and Amass is not as good as mutliple tokens for us.
Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor (6/10) - She protects our walkers, creates chump blockers, and digs deeper into our deck. I like her, especially with DS on the table.
Kaya, Bane of the Dead (2/10) - One or two copies of Unmake that get past hexproof. I'd rather use a mass board wipe and get other creatures, too.
Narset, Parter of Veils (5.5/10) - Decent loyalty-to-cmc ratio, nice static, and a good ability to dig deeper.
Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted (2.5/10) - Higher cmc. I like the static, even if it is a bit slow. Not a fan of the loyalty ability.
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer (6/10) - This was hard to evaluate, but I think she's pretty good - nearly every spell we have will generate a token. The loyalty ability isn't great unless we have something like Contagion Engine on the field, but she's great with DS.
Teyo, the Shieldmage (4.5/10) - He protects us and spawns blockers, but he doesn't actively help us win. Ever.
Tibalt, Rakish Instigator (4/10) - Cheap cmc, a relevant static, and spawns out chump blockers that also burn. Much better with DS or heavy proliferate.
The Wanderer (4.5/10) - Elsepth uses a big floppy hat to hide her mask of the returned while offering protection from burn and removing an inconvenient creature or two.
Vraska, Swarm's Eminence (2.5/10) - Deathtouch tokens. Certainly don't want them stolen and used against us.
This has gotten long. I'll put the other cards in another post.
Flux Channeler - Amazing ability - proliferates on nearly every spell we cast. It may die to our boardwipes, but it will proliferate before hitting the graveyard.
It's also worth noting that they changed the rules for proliferate. It used to give one counter of a type found on the player or permanent, but now it gives another counter of each type on them. So, before you could give a player another poison counter while not giving them more energy or experience, but now it's all or nothing (according to what they have on them already).
Bioessence Hydra - Rather bizarre interaction with superfriends. Probably best in limited color superfriends (like 2-3 color), but I don't see making room in five-color.
Spark Double - I already raved about this above. It's awesome. I love it.
The Elderspell - This is stupid, undercosted, and nearly kills our deck for a measly two mana. They wouldn't print "destroy any number of target" for any other permanent type with no drawback, especially at 2 cmc. I really hate this card.
All in all, a crazy set that promises to shake up superfriends like no set before it. I'm still deciding what I'll run.
What are you excited to try?
Anyone disagree on my analysis?
With ‚War of the Spark‘ coming I finally decide to assemble a Superfriends deck. I have this plan now for some years but due to not having a critical mass of planeswalkers in my collection I suspended this so far.
Thanks for this thread and all the discussions of the last years.
1. I actually like The Elderspell as a possible card to run IN SUPERFRIENDS. As doubling season can attest, there are a number of walkers out there (M19 Tezz, OG Ugin, Bant Tamiyo, new Bolas) that basically win the game on their own. The elder spell is a cheap way to get rid of a couple less important (or enemy) walkers and automatically get that Ult in the same turn you land the walker. While it's not a third token doubler, this thing can win games out of nowhere for you.
2. I've been running Primevals' Glorious Rebirth for a while in my Superfriends deck and have had tremendous success with it as bringing out a critical mass of walkers all at once lets you address everything your opponents are doing while you generate card advantage and work towards your ults. For that reason, I love Command the Dreadhorde as a more limited version of that spell that doesn't need a legend on the field. My reanimation approach also works well with walkers who can shove things into graveyards (such as Dack or the new Ashiok/Tamiyo). Speaking of which, that new Tamiyo can revive my revival spell on the same turn that I use it, creating awesome value loops akin to what Eternal Witness can do...
3. On the other hand, I'm not that impressed by Spark Double. I really wanted to like it but the fact that I can only target my own cards kind of sours me on this. If I'm getting a "discount" on a second Ugin or Bolas, I'm probably in a strong situation already. If I need to copy a midrange walker to generate some card advantage or clear some breathing room, meanwhile, I'd rather just have an additional utility walker in the 99 than risk drawing this with an empty board. While this has a few walker synergies (Liliana, Death's Majesty or Nissa, Vital Force, for example), I'm not seeing the ideal line here.
On an unrelated topic, have you ever tried Honor-Worn Shaku? This card has been an absolute workhorse for me, effectively turning all of my walkers into mana rocks. While I know that colorless mana rocks aren’t that significant in 5 color decks, I regularly get 5-6 mana a turn out of this 3 mana artifact, which is too good for me to ignore.
1. I actually like The Elderspell as a possible card to run IN SUPERFRIENDS. As doubling season can attest, there are a number of walkers out there (M19 Tezz, OG Ugin, Bant Tamiyo, new Bolas) that basically win the game on their own. The elder spell is a cheap way to get rid of a couple less important (or enemy) walkers and automatically get that Ult in the same turn you land the walker. While it's not a third token doubler, this thing can win games out of nowhere for you.
This one can also fall to the "already in a good position" problem, though, where it's usefulness is proportional to how well you're doing already. Plus there's the liability of somebody else casting it from your graveyard or other form of theft.
On an unrelated topic, have you ever tried Honor-Worn Shaku? This card has been an absolute workhorse for me, effectively turning all of my walkers into mana rocks. While I know that colorless mana rocks aren’t that significant in 5 color decks, I regularly get 5-6 mana a turn out of this 3 mana artifact, which is too good for me to ignore.
How useful they are will depend on your meta and budget. They are efficient creatures, but I would ask yourself a few questions:
- How big are the creatures that normally attack in my group? Will a Wall of Omens survive more than one block?
- How many creatures normally attack? Is blocking one or two creatures enough, or am I being swarmed by twenty tokens?
- Can I even block the creatures that attack? Do they have flying or unblockable?
- How often does someone wipe the board? Will a wall even survive long enough to block?
If, after answering those questions, it sound like they would work, then by all means use them.
2. I've been running Primevals' Glorious Rebirth for a while in my Superfriends deck and have had tremendous success with it as bringing out a critical mass of walkers all at once lets you address everything your opponents are doing while you generate card advantage and work towards your ults.
I should try Primevals' Glorious Rebirth in mine - I just hate figuring out what to cut. But it probably is worth it.
3. On the other hand, I'm not that impressed by Spark Double. I really wanted to like it but the fact that I can only target my own cards kind of sours me on this. If I'm getting a "discount" on a second Ugin or Bolas, I'm probably in a strong situation already. If I need to copy a midrange walker to generate some card advantage or clear some breathing room, meanwhile, I'd rather just have an additional utility walker in the 99 than risk drawing this with an empty board. While this has a few walker synergies (Liliana, Death's Majesty or Nissa, Vital Force, for example), I'm not seeing the ideal line here.
I can see that. But I do love the card and will give it a try.
On an unrelated topic, have you ever tried Honor-Worn Shaku? This card has been an absolute workhorse for me, effectively turning all of my walkers into mana rocks. While I know that colorless mana rocks aren’t that significant in 5 color decks, I regularly get 5-6 mana a turn out of this 3 mana artifact, which is too good for me to ignore.
I haven't tried it. I'm sure it does give a lot of mana - I just wish it were colored.
Some quick explanations for the less obvious cards:
Ignite the Beacon is an instant. That's why I'm testing it.
Ashiok is a hate walker. I've learned over the years that grave hate is one of the best hates, so I'm willing to give them a shot because they also works on Tutors.
Narset is similar to Ashiok, except she also works for digging for our stuff. While keeping blue in check is a good reason to run her, her Azcanta ability will determine whether or not she stays.
Ugin, the Ineffable produces tokens that we don't care if they die. I'm curious if that's worth the space. The spot removal isn't half bad either (but it also isn't great).
Jace, Cunning Castaway is not in this set, but he gives superfriends a degenerate combo of their own with Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God. If you have both walkers out with any of the following cards already on the field when Nicol Bolas enters the battlefield, you win on the spot if your opponents don't disrupt:
What happens is that these cards give Nicol Bolas at least five loyalty counters to activate Jace, Cunning Castaway's -5 ability and the copies enter able to activate that ability as well. Those copies will be Nicol Bolas, Dragon Gods, which means when go to -5 them, you don't have to stop doing that until you have large enough arbitrary number of Nicol Bolases. You can then proceed to use their own +1. All of them. If you have Doubling Season, one of them can even ult after the mass exodus of their hands and boards. Otherwise anyone who doesn't scoop to being locked out of cards is deluding themselves.
All that being said, this isn't final, part of this will involve that Jace, Cunning Castaway isn't that good on his own.
Here's a list of other cards I'm considering down the line:
But yeah, the biggest thing to come out of this set is that we now got at least one degenerate combo we don't have to splash for, and even without that, we've gotten way too many new and exciting things.
Edit: I also really want to like Tamiyo, Collector of Tales, but I feel she's best in Muldrotha where her awful +1 becomes arguably a much better toolbox enabler or one of those cards that says you can have any number of them in a deck.
part of this will involve that Jace, Cunning Castaway isn't that good on his own.
I already have to cut cards I love to fit in new stuff - there's no way I'd cut a good card for a bad one with a slim chance of pulling a combo. I'm hoping that if I have Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God out, I'm already winning.
part of this will involve that Jace, Cunning Castaway isn't that good on his own.
I already have to cut cards I love to fit in new stuff - there's no way I'd cut a good card for a bad one with a slim chance of pulling a combo. I'm hoping that if I have Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God out, I'm already winning.
In my testing, I think the combo is viable... but there's a huge caveat, and that caveat is that you're playing an entirely different deck, which is a Control Combo deck with Superfriends elements. I figured that out when I realized that the combo allows me to cut the number of Planeswalkers down by more than half for other controlly cards and tutors. So, my current response is that if you want to test Nicol Bolas with Jace, Cunning Castaway's abilities, build the deck for it, don't just jam it into superfriends. More testing may change my opinion still.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Sure she has some weird restrictions, but we can tutor planeswalkers with up to CMC 6 or less to the field now. And that's before adding in other stat modifiers we can play (All the Ajanis just got better).
Oh, we can also tutor anything else with Legendary in the type line, so that also means lands, Oaths (like Oath of Nissa to fix the fact most legendary lands make colorless mana), Pir, The Chain Veil, or even Captain Sisay.
So, I don't know if a legendary tutor in the command zone trumps every other contender, but this does feel like a first. I don't just want to cast as a back-up plan or just when things go wrong. I think this means we struck gold.
And now I regret trading my Sliver Queen six months ago. Not because I wish I was still running her, and certainly not to play Slivers - merely because the price has gone insane and I could have gotten an additional $100 if I had it now.
Sisay, Weatherlight Captain
We can Tutor planeswalkers to the field now
...
So, I don't know if a legendary tutor in the command zone trumps every other contender, but this does feel like a first. I don't just want to cast as a back-up plan or just when things go wrong. I think this means we struck gold.
Yeah, new Sisay is a possible contender for Superfriends commander. She's a huge mana sink and card advantage engine rolled into one. It's mostly a question of whether she is win-more. Is it worth paying 2WWUBRG on an empty board to tutor up Oath of Nissa? That's her floor. Obviously, she gets better the better our board is - paying 2WWUBRG to tutor any legendary permanent with cmc 6 or less sounds great, but that requires legendary permanents in all five colors, which should give us a fairly strong board already. And, of course, if she survives for repeated use, she gets better. I may have to test her.
We also have Sneak Attack for planeswalkers, but I'm not sure I really want that. I mean, sure, if I have Doubling Season in play and five planeswalkers in hand, and a Venser, it seems great. Or Teferi's Emblem and some spicy walker in hand during an opponent's turn. But deliberately one-shotting my walkers feels bad.
I feel this walker is incredibly broken for any SuperFriends deck (especially Atraxa, Praetors' Voice). He provides a chump blocker that flies, can draw a card, and his emblem is beyond broken.
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1 Grim Affliction
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Can generate mana
Proliferation synergy
Doubling Season synergy
Secondary win condition
Cheaper (more value for other cards)
Cons
Only one body
Easily dies to forced sacrifice
Doubling Season synergy
I'm seriously considering changing general for this deck. A friend convinced me to try Ramos instead of Sliver Queen, so I did for two games last night. Got him out one game, got ten extra mana one time, but it felt pretty good. Much better than casting the Queen out of desperation for blockers. Bear in mind that I only cast my general maybe one out of every five to ten games (really wish there was a more on-theme general). I'm not 100% sold (very small sample size to make a decision), so somebody convince me.
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For example, Ramos and Sunbird's are on the field. You cast Ajani Unyeilding, giving Ramos 2 counters and Sunbird trigger for 6, hitting Sarkhan Unbroken and giving Ramos 3 counters. Draw with Sarkhan and get some cards with Ajani and then remove the 5 counters off of Ramos. 10 mana should be enough to get 5 more counters on him to repeat the process. Not even to mention all the proliferate and Doubling Season, it gets out of hand quick.
The Planeswalkers were chosen at random from my deck and honestly as I type this, I'm realizing how good it would be to hit those two walkers in this order
But you can only use Ramos's mana ability once each turn...
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That's my bad on my wording, I apologize if I was confusing. I meant repeating the counter shenanigans over a period of turns, you should be able to get at least 5 more counters on Ramos before your turn ends. Then do it on your next turn after a full rotation. I usually get 3-4 planeswalkers out this way, which is why I called it storm.
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Yeah, I weighed my options for a while and then went for it. I traded the queen away for an extra Ramos and a stack of other cards I was looking for, and I haven't regretted it at all. I'm definitely happier with Ramos. I'm sure there will be times when I wish I could go wide, but that was never the queen's main purpose anyway.
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Flux Channeler offers repeatable proliferate, too.
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Of the planeswalkers that have been spoiled, I think I like Teferi the most (for Superfriends), but all I imagine is ticking him up over and over, with no ultimate to build to.
If Nicol Bolas, Dragon God ends up being real, though, he would go in for the static ability alone, not to mention the crazy loyalty abilities.
I hate choosing cards to cut, and I think this set may force some really hard cuts.
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Let's just talk about Spark Double a minute. I run Clever Impersonator because it's flexible, powerful, and can become anything, even a planeswalker; however, it does this at the cost of the original planeswalker. Spark Double actually gives you a second nonlegendary copy that can sit alongside the original. That's nuts. Even more nuts is I could now have three copies of a planeswalker if I chain it Walker>Spark Double>Clever Impersonator (as a copy of the nonlegendary copy).
So, who would we want to copy the most?
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Let's start with Planeswalkers. I'm going to grade these out of ten points, but the new designs make it a lot more difficult than normal. Static abilities throw everyhing off, as does a lack of ultimates and even a lack of plus abilities. There's really no formula for these scores - it's more of a gut feeling after asking myself these questions:
- How relevant is the static ability?
- How useful are the loyalty abilities?
- Does it help me win?
- Does it protect itself and my other walkers?
- Is it worth paying the mana cost?
- Does it interact well with Doubling Season?
Keep in mind that a walker can get a low score in the context of a superfriends even if it is really good in a different deck; in fact, there are several walkers in this set who would excel in a very focused artifact or creature deck but that just aren't right for us.
Rares first (because they can uptick their loyalty):
Ajani, the Greathearted (4.5/10) - Vigilance and lifegain aren't that useful for us, but the counter ability is great. The main problem is, again, that I need a good board for it to matter, and I should already be winning at that point.
Chandra, Fire Artisan (3/10) - I like her static (actually would love that for all my walkers), and she does offer some card advantage, but she's just not very good.
Domri, Anarch of Bolas (4.5) - Cheap and produces mana, but that's most of his usefulness.
Gideon Blackblade (4/10) - An indestructible creature is nice, but it's only on our turn, and we care more about blcoking than swinging. We also pack board wipes designed to get around indestructible, so there's some anti-synergy there.
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries (3.5/10) - We're not built to win off Labman, we have better card draw walkers, and the mana cost is very heavy blue for a five color deck.
Karn, the Great Creator (3.5/10) - Karn is very artifact-centric and can be amazing, even devestating in the right deck. That just isn't superfriends. His static does offer some opponent hate, but he doesn't really help us win.
Liliana, Dreadhorde General (7.5/10) - Her cmc is a bit high for my taste, but she offers chump blockers, card draw, and a potential win. She's especially good with DS, as it doubles tokens and offers an instant-ult, which should put us far enough ahead to win.
Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God (11/10) - Haha! That's right, we've turned the dial up to eleven. That static ability is a thing of beauty. Beyond that, the plus is great, the minus is useful, and the ult is potentially game-winning the cost is a bit demanding, but I'm totally willing to pay it.
Nissa, Who Shakes the World (3/10) - She's got a good static for decks running shocks or duals, and the ult is amazing, but I don't want to tick her up because it makes my land vulnerable. Short of dropping her on the board with DS already out or some really heavy proliferate, she does nothing for me.
Ral, Storm Conduit (2/10) - Meant for spellslinger, not superfriends.
Sarkhan the Masterless (4/10) - The static is not right for superfriends, but the plus is a hilarious potential wincon - unfortunately, it feels like win-more because if I have enough walkers for it to matter, I should be winning already. The tokens are nice.
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord (2/10) - Not enough impact for us, doesn't help us win.
Tamiyo, Collector of Tales (3/10) - The static offers niche protection, and she doubles as an Eternal Witness, but the plus is pretty terrible.
Teferi, Time Raveler (6/10) - Cheap cmc, relevant static, and a great plus. I've often said that Alchemist's Refuge is the best card in the deck, and being able to tick up his loyalty as I threaten instant-speed boardwipes every turn is great. The minus may or may not be that useful.
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge (0/10 for being promo-only, but 3/10 as a card) - Amazing card in an artifact-centric deck but not in ours.
Ugin, the Ineffable (5.5/10) - His static is near useless for us, but his loyalty abilities do offer chump blockers, card advantage, and removal. I just don't think I'd ever want to spend 6 on it in this deck.
Vivien, Champion of the Wilds (1/10) - Awesome in a creature deck but useless for us.
Now the uncommons. These suffer in the scoring because they can only tick down on their own, requiring heavy proliferation to remain meaningful for more than a couple turns.
Angrath, Captain of Chaos (2.5/10) - Relatively useless static for us, and Amass is not as good as mutliple tokens for us.
Arlinn, Voice of the Pack (3/10) - High cmc, plinks out a few chump blockers.
Ashiok, Dream Render (4.5/10) - Excellent hate card that I plan to run in other decks, but it does nothing to secure a win for us in this deck.
Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage (1/10) - Needs to find a home in a discard deck rather than superfriends.
Dovin, Hand of Control (4/10) - Tax and damage prevention but again doesn't contribute to our win.
Huatli, the Sun's Heart (1/10) - Not the lowest scoring Huatli, but close. Aside from gaining us a few points of life, she doesn't do much for us.
Jaya, Venerated Firemage (1.5/10) - Burn walker wants a burn deck.
Jiang Yanggu, Wildcrafter (2/10) - Amazing in the right deck, just not in this one.
Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor (6/10) - She protects our walkers, creates chump blockers, and digs deeper into our deck. I like her, especially with DS on the table.
Kaya, Bane of the Dead (2/10) - One or two copies of Unmake that get past hexproof. I'd rather use a mass board wipe and get other creatures, too.
Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner (5.5/10) - Very nice loyalty-to-cmc ratio. The static draws a card off our commander, and the untap can be used for lands or things like The Chain Veil, Contagion Clasp, or Contagion Engine.
Nahiri, Storm of Stone (1.5/10) - May kill one tapped creature. that's it.
Narset, Parter of Veils (5.5/10) - Decent loyalty-to-cmc ratio, nice static, and a good ability to dig deeper.
Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted (2.5/10) - Higher cmc. I like the static, even if it is a bit slow. Not a fan of the loyalty ability.
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer (6/10) - This was hard to evaluate, but I think she's pretty good - nearly every spell we have will generate a token. The loyalty ability isn't great unless we have something like Contagion Engine on the field, but she's great with DS.
Samut, Tyrant Smasher (1/10) - Creature.dec wants their walker back.
Teyo, the Shieldmage (4.5/10) - He protects us and spawns blockers, but he doesn't actively help us win. Ever.
Tibalt, Rakish Instigator (4/10) - Cheap cmc, a relevant static, and spawns out chump blockers that also burn. Much better with DS or heavy proliferate.
The Wanderer (4.5/10) - Elsepth uses a big floppy hat to hide her mask of the returned while offering protection from burn and removing an inconvenient creature or two.
Vraska, Swarm's Eminence (2.5/10) - Deathtouch tokens. Certainly don't want them stolen and used against us.
This has gotten long. I'll put the other cards in another post.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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Good
Contentious Plan - Similar to Steady Progress or Tezzeret's Gambit. Cheapest cmc but a sorcery.
Evolution Sage - Landfall Proliferate! Wow.
Flux Channeler - Amazing ability - proliferates on nearly every spell we cast. It may die to our boardwipes, but it will proliferate before hitting the graveyard.
Karn's Bastion - Repeatable proliferate in a land slot.
Planewide Celebration - High cmc, but I hear that choosing to proliferate four times is pretty good... Also offers other options.
Not As Good
Bloom Hulk - Meh.
Courage in Crisis - Not bad with Ramos (nets 3 +1/+1 counters), but there are so many better options.
Grateful Apparition - Tiny body and needs to connect.
Guildpact Informant - Apparition for one extra mana.
Huatli's Raptor - Not a bad body or cmc, but we just have better options.
Kiora's Dambreaker - High cmc, vanilla body.
Martyr for the Cause - We can do better than a dead bear.
Merfolk Skydiver - Repeatable with enough mana, but a bit expensive for my taste.
Pollenbright Druid - Almost hit the good list just due to cmc, but we want more than one time proliferate and an irrelevant body.
Roalesk, Apex Hybrid - Double proliferate is nice, but we need him to die.
Wanderer's Strike - High cmc sorcery removal.
It's also worth noting that they changed the rules for proliferate. It used to give one counter of a type found on the player or permanent, but now it gives another counter of each type on them. So, before you could give a player another poison counter while not giving them more energy or experience, but now it's all or nothing (according to what they have on them already).
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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Bioessence Hydra - Rather bizarre interaction with superfriends. Probably best in limited color superfriends (like 2-3 color), but I don't see making room in five-color.
Command the Dreadhorde - Need some decent life to use this, but it offers recursion.
Ignite the Beacon - I don't run Call the Gatewatch or Deploy the Gatewatch, and I don't plan to run this.
Interplanar Beacon - This is pretty nice, granting a little lifegain and mana fixing without costing a slot.
Oath of Kaya - Lifegain/lifedrain but doesn't affect the board.
Single Combat - This can hurt us pretty badly.
Spark Double - I already raved about this above. It's awesome. I love it.
The Elderspell - This is stupid, undercosted, and nearly kills our deck for a measly two mana. They wouldn't print "destroy any number of target" for any other permanent type with no drawback, especially at 2 cmc. I really hate this card.
All in all, a crazy set that promises to shake up superfriends like no set before it. I'm still deciding what I'll run.
What are you excited to try?
Anyone disagree on my analysis?
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Thanks for this thread and all the discussions of the last years.
I would go on the heavy creature route.
What do you think of efficient creatures that only shall defend the walkers?: Wall of Omens, Fog Bank, Guard Gomazoa, Wall of Denial
I would also add Karn, Silver Golem. So it‘s possible to block with (useless) mana stones.
1. I actually like The Elderspell as a possible card to run IN SUPERFRIENDS. As doubling season can attest, there are a number of walkers out there (M19 Tezz, OG Ugin, Bant Tamiyo, new Bolas) that basically win the game on their own. The elder spell is a cheap way to get rid of a couple less important (or enemy) walkers and automatically get that Ult in the same turn you land the walker. While it's not a third token doubler, this thing can win games out of nowhere for you.
2. I've been running Primevals' Glorious Rebirth for a while in my Superfriends deck and have had tremendous success with it as bringing out a critical mass of walkers all at once lets you address everything your opponents are doing while you generate card advantage and work towards your ults. For that reason, I love Command the Dreadhorde as a more limited version of that spell that doesn't need a legend on the field. My reanimation approach also works well with walkers who can shove things into graveyards (such as Dack or the new Ashiok/Tamiyo). Speaking of which, that new Tamiyo can revive my revival spell on the same turn that I use it, creating awesome value loops akin to what Eternal Witness can do...
3. On the other hand, I'm not that impressed by Spark Double. I really wanted to like it but the fact that I can only target my own cards kind of sours me on this. If I'm getting a "discount" on a second Ugin or Bolas, I'm probably in a strong situation already. If I need to copy a midrange walker to generate some card advantage or clear some breathing room, meanwhile, I'd rather just have an additional utility walker in the 99 than risk drawing this with an empty board. While this has a few walker synergies (Liliana, Death's Majesty or Nissa, Vital Force, for example), I'm not seeing the ideal line here.
On an unrelated topic, have you ever tried Honor-Worn Shaku? This card has been an absolute workhorse for me, effectively turning all of my walkers into mana rocks. While I know that colorless mana rocks aren’t that significant in 5 color decks, I regularly get 5-6 mana a turn out of this 3 mana artifact, which is too good for me to ignore.
I've been running Shaku in my superfriends list, too. It can definitely help with one's reach as any legendary permanent can be used. Just one walker on the field means it's a 3 CMC rock that taps for CC without entering tapped, and anything past that is gravy. Some other legends besides planeswalkers and equipment (which we're unlikely to run): The Chain Veil (if we don't need to tap it for its ability), Oath of Gideon, Oath of Teferi, other oaths, supplemental card draw like Arguel's Blood Fast/Honden of Seeing Winds/Tamiyo's Journal, and other stuff like In Bolas's Clutches, Legacy Weapon, Paradox Engine, Profane Procession, Thran Temporal Gateway, Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Oh, and Reki.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
- How big are the creatures that normally attack in my group? Will a Wall of Omens survive more than one block?
- How many creatures normally attack? Is blocking one or two creatures enough, or am I being swarmed by twenty tokens?
- Can I even block the creatures that attack? Do they have flying or unblockable?
- How often does someone wipe the board? Will a wall even survive long enough to block?
If, after answering those questions, it sound like they would work, then by all means use them. I can see the appeal, but it comes with a lot of risk. As Lyonhaert pointed out, it can backfire if an opponent takes control of the spell or casts it from your hand or graveyard (Chancellor of the Spires, Diluvian Primordial, Memory Plunder, Spelltwine, Wrexial, the Risen Deep, etc.). I should try Primevals' Glorious Rebirth in mine - I just hate figuring out what to cut. But it probably is worth it. I can see that. But I do love the card and will give it a try. I haven't tried it. I'm sure it does give a lot of mana - I just wish it were colored.
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Some quick explanations for the less obvious cards:
Ignite the Beacon is an instant. That's why I'm testing it.
Ashiok is a hate walker. I've learned over the years that grave hate is one of the best hates, so I'm willing to give them a shot because they also works on Tutors.
Narset is similar to Ashiok, except she also works for digging for our stuff. While keeping blue in check is a good reason to run her, her Azcanta ability will determine whether or not she stays.
Ugin, the Ineffable produces tokens that we don't care if they die. I'm curious if that's worth the space. The spot removal isn't half bad either (but it also isn't great).
Jace, Cunning Castaway is not in this set, but he gives superfriends a degenerate combo of their own with Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God. If you have both walkers out with any of the following cards already on the field when Nicol Bolas enters the battlefield, you win on the spot if your opponents don't disrupt:
What happens is that these cards give Nicol Bolas at least five loyalty counters to activate Jace, Cunning Castaway's -5 ability and the copies enter able to activate that ability as well. Those copies will be Nicol Bolas, Dragon Gods, which means when go to -5 them, you don't have to stop doing that until you have large enough arbitrary number of Nicol Bolases. You can then proceed to use their own +1. All of them. If you have Doubling Season, one of them can even ult after the mass exodus of their hands and boards. Otherwise anyone who doesn't scoop to being locked out of cards is deluding themselves.
All that being said, this isn't final, part of this will involve that Jace, Cunning Castaway isn't that good on his own.
Here's a list of other cards I'm considering down the line:
But yeah, the biggest thing to come out of this set is that we now got at least one degenerate combo we don't have to splash for, and even without that, we've gotten way too many new and exciting things.
Edit: I also really want to like Tamiyo, Collector of Tales, but I feel she's best in Muldrotha where her awful +1 becomes arguably a much better toolbox enabler or one of those cards that says you can have any number of them in a deck.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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In my testing, I think the combo is viable... but there's a huge caveat, and that caveat is that you're playing an entirely different deck, which is a Control Combo deck with Superfriends elements. I figured that out when I realized that the combo allows me to cut the number of Planeswalkers down by more than half for other controlly cards and tutors. So, my current response is that if you want to test Nicol Bolas with Jace, Cunning Castaway's abilities, build the deck for it, don't just jam it into superfriends. More testing may change my opinion still.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
We can Tutor planeswalkers to the field now
Sure she has some weird restrictions, but we can tutor planeswalkers with up to CMC 6 or less to the field now. And that's before adding in other stat modifiers we can play (All the Ajanis just got better).
Oh, we can also tutor anything else with Legendary in the type line, so that also means lands, Oaths (like Oath of Nissa to fix the fact most legendary lands make colorless mana), Pir, The Chain Veil, or even Captain Sisay.
So, I don't know if a legendary tutor in the command zone trumps every other contender, but this does feel like a first. I don't just want to cast as a back-up plan or just when things go wrong. I think this means we struck gold.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
We also have Sneak Attack for planeswalkers, but I'm not sure I really want that. I mean, sure, if I have Doubling Season in play and five planeswalkers in hand, and a Venser, it seems great. Or Teferi's Emblem and some spicy walker in hand during an opponent's turn. But deliberately one-shotting my walkers feels bad.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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