This may have been addressed somewhere previous in this thread, but no love for Woodfall Primus? I've always thought of him as an Azusa staple, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
This card is meh, IMHO. At the time you're able to play it the beast is close to a vanilla beater and the combat trick is quite weak. Too bad he's a Feb 1st promo card...
Yeah, Skarrg Goliath looks like a pass as a beater
I almost picked up an Arena this week, but the shop wanted $5 for it so I passed. I've seen your suggestion in other threads and the card looks great. I'll have to see if I can't get it cheaper at another local shop. On paper Glacial Chasm seems like a nice 'Oh Crap' card while I build or rebuild my forces before an alpha strike; better than maze in that it does nt give ETB effects. I'll have to hunt down a FTV foil.
This may have been addressed somewhere previous in this thread, but no love for Woodfall Primus? I've always thought of him as an Azusa staple, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
He's a great card for certain, and has a nice combo with Oran-Rief, the Vastwood where he can basically stay around forever. I've been meaning to pick one up for a while and have had other cards higher on the shopping list. Being my girlfriends deck when she plays, the general prevailing theory in the build is beef 1st and secondary effects when they lie on well-costed beaters. Woodfall Primus is just OK as a beater for 8 mana; part of the reason I've never jumped up and down to pick him up. Why blow up a permanent when I can make a bigger or more explosive play and go win the game? Primus is definitely one of the top 2-3 creatures not in the deck and if I had one he'd atleast get a few weeks of playtesting. If I added him, I'd probably slot him in for Acidic Slime although I do like the cheaper cost of slime for essentially the same effect. I'm not a fan of removal persay, but occasionally some stupid artifacts or enchantments do stand in the way of a big strike and yeah cheaper is usually better for removal.
He's a great card for certain, and has a nice combo with Oran-Rief, the Vastwood where he can basically stay around forever. I've been meaning to pick one up for a while and have had other cards higher on the shopping list. Being my girlfriends deck when she plays, the general prevailing theory in the build is beef 1st and secondary effects when they lie on well-costed beaters. Woodfall Primus is just OK as a beater for 8 mana; part of the reason I've never jumped up and down to pick him up. Why blow up a permanent when I can make a bigger or more explosive play and go win the game? Primus is definitely one of the top 2-3 creatures not in the deck and if I had one he'd atleast get a few weeks of playtesting. If I added him, I'd probably slot him in for Acidic Slime although I do like the cheaper cost of slime for essentially the same effect. I'm not a fan of removal persay, but occasionally some stupid artifacts or enchantments do stand in the way of a big strike and yeah cheaper is usually better for removal.
Yeah, I'm thinking of cutting back on the removal I have in my deck at present. Oblivion Stone and Steel Hellkite just haven't been cards I've been super excited to see. As you say, I can usually just overpower people rather than worry about their threats, with a select few exceptions. That said, I still like keeping all the good ETB removal creatures (Slime, Terastodon, Primus) around, simply because I can tutor for them if something is really giving me a problem.
Steel Hellkite is an answer to fliers and a great mana dump, either to +1/+0 or to pay for X (kills tokens like a boss or other stuff).
As for Oblivion Stone, I think every deck should pack a minimum of 1 reset button card. It also keeps opponents from developing their boards, which buys me time to kill them. They're staples in the deck, IMHO.
I ran Steel Hellkite for a while and I was never a fan for this deck. I do have flier issues in my meta, and ultimately Silklash Spider was the best and most tutorable answer I could find. The fact that the spider killed the hellkite (the only flier I had) a few times ultimately led to its removal.
Normally I agree with you on reset buttons and I usually run 1 wrath effect minimum along with a high number of hate cards in general. For this deck, I made an exception. Oblivion Stone was on my initial list for the deck. After initial play testing I removed most of the nonagressive cards from the deck. I kept just enough hate cards to stop the few problems I ran into. Hornet Queen is a nice defensive card for example, but it didn't really help much to accomplish the main strategy of the deck: deal 40 damage to each player as fast as possible. I guess a part of it is just play preferences.
glacial chasm is the best "maze" effect you can get for the deck. the drawback is easily worked around and can be a source of extra land drops when built/played correctly. it also makes stuff like ancient tomb better when in play, while strengthening (and opening more lines of play with) crop rotation.
edit:
steel hellkite is not just an answer for fliers. the fact that it can be a conditional sweeper for all permanents of a specific CMC is a great effect. the pumping effect is also a boon when running a few mana doubling effects. it is capable of doing a severe amount of damage in one swing. when factoring in how infrequently fliers appear in the majority of games (with exceptions), he is an awesome tool that you can have at your disposal.
i really do feel oblivion stone deserves a slot. there will be games that you have to grind, and getting the buried ruin/oblivion stone/crucible of worlds engine on line is a great way to do that. it is also the best "mass permanent destruction to mana cost" sweeper we can play. the 8 mana is also never an issue.
glacial chasm is the best "maze" effect you can get for the deck. the drawback is easily worked around and can be a source of extra land drops when built/played correctly. it also makes stuff like ancient tomb better when in play, while strengthening (and opening more lines of play with) crop rotation.
edit:
steel hellkite is not just an answer for fliers. the fact that it can be a conditional sweeper for all permanents of a specific CMC is a great effect. the pumping effect is also a boon when running a few mana doubling effects. it is capable of doing a severe amount of damage in one swing. when factoring in how infrequently fliers appear in the majority of games (with exceptions), he is an awesome tool that you can have at your disposal.
i really do feel oblivion stone deserves a slot. there will be games that you have to grind, and getting the buried ruin/oblivion stone/crucible of worlds engine on line is a great way to do that. it is also the best "mass permanent destruction to mana cost" sweeper we can play. the 8 mana is also never an issue.
BEDERNDERN, do you run any mana doublers yourself? Generally they seem to meet with a lot of disapproval, but I'd be curious what your perspective on them is. Also, my secondary goal is to piece together your list since you wont post it :p.
BEDERNDERN, do you run any mana doublers yourself? Generally they seem to meet with a lot of disapproval, but I'd be curious what your perspective on them is. Also, my secondary goal is to piece together your list since you wont post it :p.
i do in fact run mana doublers. i play them more as ritual effects than a source of doubling my mana. for example, if run a decent forest count (lets say around 33%) you can benefit from them greatly if they are in play for just one turn... leading to an explosive kamahl, genesis wave, hellkite hit, eldrazi spam or whatever. people are approaching them as a permanent source of mana, which i do not agree with. when they are viewed as a dark ritual on steroids, or a bubbling muck type card they become a lot better. another hidden strength of the artifact versions of these effects, is that they are a k-grip magnet. inexperienced opponents will destroy the mana doubling effect out of fear and leave the draw engine alone. that is perhaps the most wrong thing you can do against azusa.
i do in fact run mana doublers. i play them more as ritual effects than a source of doubling my mana. for example, if run a decent forest count (lets say around 33%) you can benefit from them greatly if they are in play for just one turn... leading to an explosive kamahl, genesis wave, hellkite hit, eldrazi spam or whatever. people are approaching them as a permanent source of mana, which i do not agree with. when they are viewed as a dark ritual on steroids, or a bubbling muck type card they become a lot better. another hidden strength of the artifact versions of these effects, is that they are a k-grip magnet. inexperienced opponents will destroy the mana doubling effect out of fear and leave the draw engine alone. that is perhaps the most wrong thing you can do against azusa.
Interesting. Doublers aren't in my current lineup of changes, but perhaps I'll have to try them out in the near future.
Also, maybe you (or anyone else) can explain to me what kinds of things I'm missing out on by not running Omnath, Locus of Mana. I've never understood when his ability would be relevant to me.
Also, maybe you (or anyone else) can explain to me what kinds of things I'm missing out on by not running Omnath, Locus of Mana. I've never understood when his ability would be relevant to me.
his ability never would be relevant. a proper azusa list will always have things to do with its mana, and we do not have a shortage of better beaters. azusa gains nothing from including omnath in the 99. he is better positioned as a general. at least...thats how i see it.
his ability never would be relevant. a proper azusa list will always have things to do with its mana, and we do not have a shortage of better beaters. azusa gains nothing from including omnath in the 99. he is better positioned as a general. at least...thats how i see it.
That's pretty much been my take on him, which is why I've never slotted him in thus far. Just wondering what others thought, as I know there are plenty who really love him in Azusa, even going so far as to see him as a centerpiece of the deck.
well, they are not really wrong for including him in their lists. people should play whatever they want. the difference between them and me is that i want to play the strongest configuration i possibly can, as opposed to just "cards i want to play". i just do not feel he helps achieve what i am trying to do with the deck.
BEDERNDERN, do you run any mana doublers yourself? Generally they seem to meet with a lot of disapproval, but I'd be curious what your perspective on them is. Also, my secondary goal is to piece together your list since you wont post it :p.
Mana doublers lead to amazing plays. Drop Vorinclex, and then proceed to make Kamahl or Wolfbriar do something insane. That generally only works in the same turn with a bunch of land out...but we can do that no problem. I seriously need to upgrade Caged Sun to Mana reflection at some point.
Interesting. Doublers aren't in my current lineup of changes, but perhaps I'll have to try them out in the near future.
Also, maybe you (or anyone else) can explain to me what kinds of things I'm missing out on by not running Omnath, Locus of Mana. I've never understood when his ability would be relevant to me.
Omnath is a great card, but he wants to warp the deck around himself. Once you go so far optimizing for Omnath, you are essentially better just running him as a commander IMO. Azusa likes to use up her mana rather than hold on to it.
I also think that the Eldrazi Temple is a wasted slot because there a lot of better lands out there to help you Homeward Path, Boseiju, Yavimaya Hollow and much more.
As for mana doublers, (Vernal Bloom, Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power) you usually use this cards if your playgroup has few players who can exploit the extra mana for Forest except if you really play a "win more" mentality. Caged Sun, Mana Reflection and Vorinclex usually attracts hate if there a lot of Forest in play so be careful because 10+ mana in an Azusa deck leads to explosive turns.
I also think that the Eldrazi Temple is a wasted slot because there a lot of better lands out there to help you Homeward Path, Boseiju, Yavimaya Hollow and much more.
As for mana doublers, (Vernal Bloom, Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power) you usually use this cards if your playgroup has few players who can exploit the extra mana for Forest except if you really play a "win more" mentality. Caged Sun, Mana Reflection and Vorinclex usually attracts hate if there a lot of Forest in play so be careful because 10+ mana in an Azusa deck leads to explosive turns.
Yeah I'm really behind on updating this deck :/
I do need some more draw options, I just haven't settled on which I'd like to run yet. MInd's Eye, Howling Mine, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, and Well of Knowledge had been some of the options I have looked at. I used to dislike the 'group hug' cards, but they likely will help keep some pressure off and ideally we get more mileage off the cards than our opponent's do. Putting cards in graveyards with Memory Jar is bad business in my meta if I can't win post haste. I'm not sure I cn get enough mileage off skullclamp, but I may try for the shenanigans with greater good to test its power.
Eldrazi Temple was a nice card when I ran Primetime, but isn't as nice without him. Its definitly a prime candidate for a cut. Yavimaya Hollow seems too defensive, but Homeward Path could be nice with the uptick of Briberys in my meta. I have a Winding Canyons that definitely needs a slot somewhere, and Ancient Tomb is at the top of my list whenever I put $$$ into this deck.
Mana doublers attract hate for sure and die often. If they do survive, or I can drop one with say 15 mana out, I probably won the game. I like 2 approximately; I'll probably switch Caged Sun to Mana Reflection at some point.
The green primordial and the 7/7 that copies itself are both cards that I will slot into this deck when I pick then up at the GTC release.
I do need some more draw options, I just haven't settled on which I'd like to run yet.
Mind's Eye is a shoe-in. It literally has no drawback, and the mana is a non-issue here. Very nice, repeatable source of draw that can be recurred off Buried Ruin. People with poor threat assessment will leave it alone, and you can net a lot of cards.
After that, I would suggest Soul's Majesty and Momentous Fall. A lot of people don't like them because of the conditionality. But you run enough creatures that I can't see you ever having a problem dropping one of these to be able to draw a ton of cards.
Mind's Eye is a shoe-in. It literally has no drawback, and the mana is a non-issue here. Very nice, repeatable source of draw that can be recurred off Buried Ruin. People with poor threat assessment will leave it alone, and you can net a lot of cards.
After that, I would suggest Soul's Majesty and Momentous Fall. A lot of people don't like them because of the conditionality. But you run enough creatures that I can't see you ever having a problem dropping one of these to be able to draw a ton of cards.
I ran Soul's Majesty for several months. Its a feast or famine card. I drew 12 from it or it sat in my hand with nothing to do. I ultimately removed it for Garruk, Primal Hunter and have been happier in that slot overall.
I can either cut a few less useful non lands, etc. or start cutting into the forests; neither of which I want to do. Oh the joys of balancing an Azusa deck.
I ran Soul's Majesty for several months. Its a feast or famine card. I drew 12 from it or it sat in my hand with nothing to do. I ultimately removed it for Garruk, Primal Hunter and have been happier in that slot overall.
I can either cut a few less useful non lands, etc. or start cutting into the forests; neither of which I want to do. Oh the joys of balancing an Azusa deck.
Balancing an Azusa deck is at once a great challenge and enjoyable in that respect, and tremendously tedious and potentially a giant headache. My inclination with your list would be to cut a handful of the less amazing creatures, and up that land count by 5-8. However, some Azusa decks play with 40-50 lands instead of 50-60 and do just fine. They just play out differently.
Balancing an Azusa deck is at once a great challenge and enjoyable in that respect, and tremendously tedious and potentially a giant headache. My inclination with your list would be to cut a handful of the less amazing creatures, and up that land count by 5-8. However, some Azusa decks play with 40-50 lands instead of 50-60 and do just fine. They just play out differently.
I definitely don't want to go up to 60 land, but looking over my list several times today, I could likely get the land up to 47-50 without too much trouble if need be. I have a few spots I see that have been in a while that are sub par or don't fit the goal I've developed. Cards like Asceticism and Revive really don't do that much for the deck and could easily be dropped.
The ultimate question is how few forests are too few? I have 33, or 1/3 of the deck as forests atm and I do like that number to keep the green flowing. If I take the number of forests lower, say to 30, I could fit in more utility lands while keeping up the amount of 'business' in the deck.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable running just 10ish so threats like I've seen others do in the deck against any form of a disruptive deck at all (and I do play against those). With enough exiling, the eldrazi and other big guys are gone for good. By running token generators as well, I have a safeguard that generates me more threats an lets me rebuild faster.
Ultimately I want to push the deck toward a token aggro, kill them by turn 6, all in deck and its mostly there-ish. I do need to add in more draw options and refine some weaker cards. My one hangup in general is that I don't want to up the tutor package too much since it will make it more difficult for my girlfirend to play the deck. Howevever she is smart and can figure it out, especially if I write out a strategy guide with everything I've picked up from the community over the last several months (which I plan to get to eventually; hopefully sooner rather than later. Azusa does need an official Primer).
Another thought for you: you're talking about removing creatures. How many creates can you remove and still have a creature based deck? You have 33 creatures. You may want to stay close to that number.
Another thought for you: you're talking about removing creatures. How many creates can you remove and still have a creature based deck? You have 33 creatures. You may want to stay close to that number.
BTW, I like what you are doing with the OP.
Writing about the deck has really made me start thinking about the philosophy of my build. At the moment I seem to have an artificial wall of 33 forests and 33 creatures that may become more hard rubrics as I look to refine the list.
Yeah After thinking about it, I think you are right. Philosphically, I really don't want to lower the number of creatures any further than the current number. My version is at its core a creature based Asusa deck and powerful cards like Genesis and Vigor start to lose thier effect if I don't have enough threats. Besides, with the kind of removal I face I like to have a higher treat density in general. Having 10-15 creatures like some decks scares me since Duplicant along with Deadeye Navigator and Chainer, Dementia Master exist in my meta. The higher threat density gives the deck more resiliancy in general. Besides, 45 land has always been plenty to fuel the deck out and I couldn't imagine running high up towards 60 land.
Ultimately, I need to really look over my creature list and fine tune the best 33+ options for big beaters, token makes, and utility guys. Any time a creature or a spell overlap, the creature is probably better.
I've also started to rethink my opinion of Woodfall Primus and Steel Hellkite thanks to the input of sH0opdAwoOp and BEDERNDERN. I like mana dumps and Steel Hellkite is a great mana dump. I also didn't have Eye of Ugin in the deck when I cut him the first time. I'm not exactly a fan of removal, but Woodfall Primus is still a big tramply body that can be recurred and probably warrants a slot of a more vanilla beater.
Since I'm set on lots of big beaters, I may look into Triumph of Ferocity as a means to bolster my card draw.
i run about 10 serious threats in my build, and have never had a problem. when playing as tight as you possibly can, all you need is one to get there. the ONLY thing i fear when piloting my build is a kicked sad sac, and even then i can usually race it.
in regards to your "how many forests" question... that all depends on what interacts with forests in your build. being that i run gaea's touch, 2 mana doubling effects that depend on basics, and am testing gargantuan gorilla... i need a hefty amount of basics. i wouldnt go less than 33 in my build becasue of that, but without the need for basics... you could comfortably drop as low as you want as long as your total land count is up.
Hey. What cards from Gatecrash is gonna be included into this deck ?
Giant Adephage: Looks amazings and fits into the token theme
Gyre Sage: Maybe I'm wrong, but this seem good when you want to accelerate after playing Azusa and start playing big fatties.
Any of the Green Bloodlust creatures?
Sylvan Primordial: The questions ISN'T whether this card gets included, the question is which creature do we take out?
Thespian's Stage: I'm pretty sure I would take out a forest for this card.
Giant adephage is great for a creature/token based Azusa deck. Not sure if the land based guys wil run it, but I'll slot it in on release day.
Gyre Sage is a weaker Rofellos, Lanowar Emmisary and probably weaker than most mana doublers. I just don't see it causing too many explosive plays.
I might get a Skarrg Goliath, but I can't see something that vanilla keeping a permanent slot. There are a lot better and more explosive uses than the high mana to use bloodlust IMO.
Yeah Sylvan primordial has me salavating. Other than the eldrazi, it may be the best individual critter in the deck.
Thespian's stage 'should' get a slot. I like it better than Vesuva personally and as i work on the mana base, it will get better.
So I had an interesting thought...Has anyone tried Scavenging Ooze in Azusa? After I disassembled Ghave, I have a spare copy sitting around and I'm debating what to do with it.
I like mana dumps and grave hate is relevant in my meta, so in theory it should have some usefulness. The only concern is that in a deck of fat that my mana would be better spent elsewhere; I can't see Ooze getting that big, but I could be wrong.
I finally gave this deck some much-needed love. I made some bulk changes to the list over the weekend!!!
In this update, I added card draw options and removed some less useful utility lands for stronger ones.
Scavenging Ooze for Terra Stomper - This is an experiment, but Terra Stomper was purely vanilla, and I want to try adding in some grave hate to deal with the decks in my meta. He can gain life, nuke the yard, and get pretty big eventually. He's also worth $35 so I hate to have him in a binder, lol.
Sylvan Library for Mirri's Guile - It took one game to show me that Library is 100 times better than Guile. I payed 8 life, yanked 2 extra cards and got the advantage on the table. The option to draw is great. I can't wait to try it with the Oracle of Mul Daya
Well of Knowledge for Regrowth - Regrowth is good, but why draw one, when you can draw bunches and bunches.
Arena - Terramorphic Expanse - Bad fetchland is redundant and not needed with more card draw. Arena adds reusable removal creature removal. Its still provisionally in, but its good most of the time.
Glacial Chasm for Mystifying Maze - Combined with Crucible, Chasm can keep away for several turns if not disrupted
High Market - Oran-Rief, the Vastwood - Never been a fan of CIPT lands and Oran Rief is more of a combo piece. High market proved immediate use saving my guys from exile and stealing.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Yeah, Skarrg Goliath looks like a pass as a beater
I almost picked up an Arena this week, but the shop wanted $5 for it so I passed. I've seen your suggestion in other threads and the card looks great. I'll have to see if I can't get it cheaper at another local shop. On paper Glacial Chasm seems like a nice 'Oh Crap' card while I build or rebuild my forces before an alpha strike; better than maze in that it does nt give ETB effects. I'll have to hunt down a FTV foil.
He's a great card for certain, and has a nice combo with Oran-Rief, the Vastwood where he can basically stay around forever. I've been meaning to pick one up for a while and have had other cards higher on the shopping list. Being my girlfriends deck when she plays, the general prevailing theory in the build is beef 1st and secondary effects when they lie on well-costed beaters. Woodfall Primus is just OK as a beater for 8 mana; part of the reason I've never jumped up and down to pick him up. Why blow up a permanent when I can make a bigger or more explosive play and go win the game? Primus is definitely one of the top 2-3 creatures not in the deck and if I had one he'd atleast get a few weeks of playtesting. If I added him, I'd probably slot him in for Acidic Slime although I do like the cheaper cost of slime for essentially the same effect. I'm not a fan of removal persay, but occasionally some stupid artifacts or enchantments do stand in the way of a big strike and yeah cheaper is usually better for removal.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Yeah, I'm thinking of cutting back on the removal I have in my deck at present. Oblivion Stone and Steel Hellkite just haven't been cards I've been super excited to see. As you say, I can usually just overpower people rather than worry about their threats, with a select few exceptions. That said, I still like keeping all the good ETB removal creatures (Slime, Terastodon, Primus) around, simply because I can tutor for them if something is really giving me a problem.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I ran Steel Hellkite for a while and I was never a fan for this deck. I do have flier issues in my meta, and ultimately Silklash Spider was the best and most tutorable answer I could find. The fact that the spider killed the hellkite (the only flier I had) a few times ultimately led to its removal.
Normally I agree with you on reset buttons and I usually run 1 wrath effect minimum along with a high number of hate cards in general. For this deck, I made an exception. Oblivion Stone was on my initial list for the deck. After initial play testing I removed most of the nonagressive cards from the deck. I kept just enough hate cards to stop the few problems I ran into. Hornet Queen is a nice defensive card for example, but it didn't really help much to accomplish the main strategy of the deck: deal 40 damage to each player as fast as possible. I guess a part of it is just play preferences.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
edit:
steel hellkite is not just an answer for fliers. the fact that it can be a conditional sweeper for all permanents of a specific CMC is a great effect. the pumping effect is also a boon when running a few mana doubling effects. it is capable of doing a severe amount of damage in one swing. when factoring in how infrequently fliers appear in the majority of games (with exceptions), he is an awesome tool that you can have at your disposal.
i really do feel oblivion stone deserves a slot. there will be games that you have to grind, and getting the buried ruin/oblivion stone/crucible of worlds engine on line is a great way to do that. it is also the best "mass permanent destruction to mana cost" sweeper we can play. the 8 mana is also never an issue.
BEDERNDERN, do you run any mana doublers yourself? Generally they seem to meet with a lot of disapproval, but I'd be curious what your perspective on them is. Also, my secondary goal is to piece together your list since you wont post it :p.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
i do in fact run mana doublers. i play them more as ritual effects than a source of doubling my mana. for example, if run a decent forest count (lets say around 33%) you can benefit from them greatly if they are in play for just one turn... leading to an explosive kamahl, genesis wave, hellkite hit, eldrazi spam or whatever. people are approaching them as a permanent source of mana, which i do not agree with. when they are viewed as a dark ritual on steroids, or a bubbling muck type card they become a lot better. another hidden strength of the artifact versions of these effects, is that they are a k-grip magnet. inexperienced opponents will destroy the mana doubling effect out of fear and leave the draw engine alone. that is perhaps the most wrong thing you can do against azusa.
Interesting. Doublers aren't in my current lineup of changes, but perhaps I'll have to try them out in the near future.
Also, maybe you (or anyone else) can explain to me what kinds of things I'm missing out on by not running Omnath, Locus of Mana. I've never understood when his ability would be relevant to me.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
his ability never would be relevant. a proper azusa list will always have things to do with its mana, and we do not have a shortage of better beaters. azusa gains nothing from including omnath in the 99. he is better positioned as a general. at least...thats how i see it.
That's pretty much been my take on him, which is why I've never slotted him in thus far. Just wondering what others thought, as I know there are plenty who really love him in Azusa, even going so far as to see him as a centerpiece of the deck.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Mana doublers lead to amazing plays. Drop Vorinclex, and then proceed to make Kamahl or Wolfbriar do something insane. That generally only works in the same turn with a bunch of land out...but we can do that no problem. I seriously need to upgrade Caged Sun to Mana reflection at some point.
Omnath is a great card, but he wants to warp the deck around himself. Once you go so far optimizing for Omnath, you are essentially better just running him as a commander IMO. Azusa likes to use up her mana rather than hold on to it.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I also think that the Eldrazi Temple is a wasted slot because there a lot of better lands out there to help you Homeward Path, Boseiju, Yavimaya Hollow and much more.
As for mana doublers, (Vernal Bloom, Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power) you usually use this cards if your playgroup has few players who can exploit the extra mana for Forest except if you really play a "win more" mentality. Caged Sun, Mana Reflection and Vorinclex usually attracts hate if there a lot of Forest in play so be careful because 10+ mana in an Azusa deck leads to explosive turns.
Yeah I'm really behind on updating this deck :/
I do need some more draw options, I just haven't settled on which I'd like to run yet. MInd's Eye, Howling Mine, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, and Well of Knowledge had been some of the options I have looked at. I used to dislike the 'group hug' cards, but they likely will help keep some pressure off and ideally we get more mileage off the cards than our opponent's do. Putting cards in graveyards with Memory Jar is bad business in my meta if I can't win post haste. I'm not sure I cn get enough mileage off skullclamp, but I may try for the shenanigans with greater good to test its power.
Eldrazi Temple was a nice card when I ran Primetime, but isn't as nice without him. Its definitly a prime candidate for a cut. Yavimaya Hollow seems too defensive, but Homeward Path could be nice with the uptick of Briberys in my meta. I have a Winding Canyons that definitely needs a slot somewhere, and Ancient Tomb is at the top of my list whenever I put $$$ into this deck.
Mana doublers attract hate for sure and die often. If they do survive, or I can drop one with say 15 mana out, I probably won the game. I like 2 approximately; I'll probably switch Caged Sun to Mana Reflection at some point.
The green primordial and the 7/7 that copies itself are both cards that I will slot into this deck when I pick then up at the GTC release.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Mind's Eye is a shoe-in. It literally has no drawback, and the mana is a non-issue here. Very nice, repeatable source of draw that can be recurred off Buried Ruin. People with poor threat assessment will leave it alone, and you can net a lot of cards.
After that, I would suggest Soul's Majesty and Momentous Fall. A lot of people don't like them because of the conditionality. But you run enough creatures that I can't see you ever having a problem dropping one of these to be able to draw a ton of cards.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I ran Soul's Majesty for several months. Its a feast or famine card. I drew 12 from it or it sat in my hand with nothing to do. I ultimately removed it for Garruk, Primal Hunter and have been happier in that slot overall.
I have this inkling suspicion that I may need more lands in the next large edit. I'm at 45, and I really need to reevaluate the land package. Eldrazi Temple, Evolving Wilds, Mystifying Maze, Oran-Rief the Vastwood, and Tectonic Edge all could go with no problem.
However I need to work in Ancient Tomb, Glacial Chasm, Mikokoro, center of the sea, Dust Bowl, likely Scrying sheets and finish up snow-covering the other half of the forests, HIgh Market and Buried Ruin and maybe 2-3 more.
I can either cut a few less useful non lands, etc. or start cutting into the forests; neither of which I want to do. Oh the joys of balancing an Azusa deck.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Balancing an Azusa deck is at once a great challenge and enjoyable in that respect, and tremendously tedious and potentially a giant headache. My inclination with your list would be to cut a handful of the less amazing creatures, and up that land count by 5-8. However, some Azusa decks play with 40-50 lands instead of 50-60 and do just fine. They just play out differently.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I definitely don't want to go up to 60 land, but looking over my list several times today, I could likely get the land up to 47-50 without too much trouble if need be. I have a few spots I see that have been in a while that are sub par or don't fit the goal I've developed. Cards like Asceticism and Revive really don't do that much for the deck and could easily be dropped.
The ultimate question is how few forests are too few? I have 33, or 1/3 of the deck as forests atm and I do like that number to keep the green flowing. If I take the number of forests lower, say to 30, I could fit in more utility lands while keeping up the amount of 'business' in the deck.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable running just 10ish so threats like I've seen others do in the deck against any form of a disruptive deck at all (and I do play against those). With enough exiling, the eldrazi and other big guys are gone for good. By running token generators as well, I have a safeguard that generates me more threats an lets me rebuild faster.
Ultimately I want to push the deck toward a token aggro, kill them by turn 6, all in deck and its mostly there-ish. I do need to add in more draw options and refine some weaker cards. My one hangup in general is that I don't want to up the tutor package too much since it will make it more difficult for my girlfirend to play the deck. Howevever she is smart and can figure it out, especially if I write out a strategy guide with everything I've picked up from the community over the last several months (which I plan to get to eventually; hopefully sooner rather than later. Azusa does need an official Primer).
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
BTW, I like what you are doing with the OP.
RWU Nom Nom Numot: The Hungry Devastator
GUB Damia's BUG-ifact Parade: all artifacts, all the time
GWG Trostani, Selesnya's Voice of Madness
GUG Edric, weenie master of DOOM
BRB Olivia Voldaren, Your creatures = MINE!
Writing about the deck has really made me start thinking about the philosophy of my build. At the moment I seem to have an artificial wall of 33 forests and 33 creatures that may become more hard rubrics as I look to refine the list.
Yeah After thinking about it, I think you are right. Philosphically, I really don't want to lower the number of creatures any further than the current number. My version is at its core a creature based Asusa deck and powerful cards like Genesis and Vigor start to lose thier effect if I don't have enough threats. Besides, with the kind of removal I face I like to have a higher treat density in general. Having 10-15 creatures like some decks scares me since Duplicant along with Deadeye Navigator and Chainer, Dementia Master exist in my meta. The higher threat density gives the deck more resiliancy in general. Besides, 45 land has always been plenty to fuel the deck out and I couldn't imagine running high up towards 60 land.
Ultimately, I need to really look over my creature list and fine tune the best 33+ options for big beaters, token makes, and utility guys. Any time a creature or a spell overlap, the creature is probably better.
I've also started to rethink my opinion of Woodfall Primus and Steel Hellkite thanks to the input of sH0opdAwoOp and BEDERNDERN. I like mana dumps and Steel Hellkite is a great mana dump. I also didn't have Eye of Ugin in the deck when I cut him the first time. I'm not exactly a fan of removal, but Woodfall Primus is still a big tramply body that can be recurred and probably warrants a slot of a more vanilla beater.
Since I'm set on lots of big beaters, I may look into Triumph of Ferocity as a means to bolster my card draw.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
in regards to your "how many forests" question... that all depends on what interacts with forests in your build. being that i run gaea's touch, 2 mana doubling effects that depend on basics, and am testing gargantuan gorilla... i need a hefty amount of basics. i wouldnt go less than 33 in my build becasue of that, but without the need for basics... you could comfortably drop as low as you want as long as your total land count is up.
Giant Adephage: Looks amazings and fits into the token theme
Gyre Sage: Maybe I'm wrong, but this seem good when you want to accelerate after playing Azusa and start playing big fatties.
Any of the Green Bloodlust creatures?
Sylvan Primordial: The questions ISN'T whether this card gets included, the question is which creature do we take out?
Thespian's Stage: I'm pretty sure I would take out a forest for this card.
Giant adephage is great for a creature/token based Azusa deck. Not sure if the land based guys wil run it, but I'll slot it in on release day.
Gyre Sage is a weaker Rofellos, Lanowar Emmisary and probably weaker than most mana doublers. I just don't see it causing too many explosive plays.
I might get a Skarrg Goliath, but I can't see something that vanilla keeping a permanent slot. There are a lot better and more explosive uses than the high mana to use bloodlust IMO.
Yeah Sylvan primordial has me salavating. Other than the eldrazi, it may be the best individual critter in the deck.
Thespian's stage 'should' get a slot. I like it better than Vesuva personally and as i work on the mana base, it will get better.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I like mana dumps and grave hate is relevant in my meta, so in theory it should have some usefulness. The only concern is that in a deck of fat that my mana would be better spent elsewhere; I can't see Ooze getting that big, but I could be wrong.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
In this update, I added card draw options and removed some less useful utility lands for stronger ones.
I need to find a spot for Crop Rotation somewhere to play with Ancient Tomb and Sylvan Primordial is a must when I get one. I'm also thinking I severely want a Woodfall Primus for more removal on a stick.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh