MTG Salvation

So this was a Ghave deck, but I got tired of randomly comboing when my original intention was to make a token deck in junk colors. After deliberation, I kicked Ghave to the curb and went for Karador as the head of my token deck to have a 'kinder deck'. I took out the ghave specific parts (+1 counters matter cards), added in more proper token token makers and basically ended up where I am; a deck in transition. Now I aim to fine tune the list to a strong token deck that also is built to feature functionality with Karador's recurion abilities.

Its still raw and in need of work, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

So after deliberation I decided to scrap Ghave, but at the same time I wanted to still play tokens in Junk colors. I picked up a number of token enablers in the colors and threw a basic build together with some old pieces from Ghave. It still needs work and not every choice is optimized yet, but I have a launching point for something fun.

Looking at my commander options, Karador, Ghost Chieftan probably gives the most value, but at the same time I'm not runing a reanimator deck either. I have Chainer, Dementia Master as a reanimator so I don't want to go that direction entirely. I would like to optimize the token deck to work as best as possible with Karador though.

So yeah...I'm trying to essentially put a square peg in a round hole here to get what I want, but eventually I want a fun and strong deck that dumps tokens, but also gets some value from Karador.

I will appreciate all the assistance possible to make this project better.

Well, some basic stuff real quick. You have a lot of artifact/spell ramp, but green is one of your colors and green can ramp with creatures and creatures interact more favorably in your deck.
You have a Lot of ramp, a lot of card draw, a lot targeted single use removal.

And very very few creature, token generators, and sac outlets (well, maybe enough of these).

Your deck is fundamentally a creature based deck. Creatures can be used to generate mana, they can be used to kill other creatures, to draw cards, and sometimes to tutor or reanimate other creatures.

The deck right now seems to be built to ramp/draw into a combo it doesn't have. You do have the reveillark and karmic guide combo, but that doesn't need half the ramp you have in the deck.

If you don't want to combo out you need to skimp on one of the following: Cards that can loop creatures, cards that sac cards that can be looped, cards that win the game when looping.

Some more concrete tips. Wood elves over natures lore at least. Cut some of the other spell based ramp. Saproling Cluster is a token generator that is in a way better in Karador than in ghave since you can discard a creature and then cast it from your graveyard anyway (beware that fecundity saproling cluster earthcraft and a sac outlet lets you cycle through your deck). Underworld connections is lame. Boundless realms is lame unless you have a landfall trigger out and unless you're All in on a landfall deck instead of a token deck I would cut it for being a dead draw or excessive to your needs too often.

You need more room for creatures anyway. With so many death triggers you might consider Viscera seer and carrion feeder as cheap sac outlets.

Deranged hermit is 5 for 5 creatures. When your creature count goes up, Tombstone Stairwell is a Massive source of tokens, ETB triggers and Dies triggers. Consider moving toward more creature based removal. Fiend hunter has synergy with sac outlets and sun titan, plus Karador of course. Though I guess he'd also Loop with sun titan, but you don't seem to have lethal sac outlets right?

You are shying away from accidental combos right?

Quote from Osuna

Well, some basic stuff real quick. You have a lot of artifact/spell ramp, but green is one of your colors and green can ramp with creatures and creatures interact more favorably in your deck.
You have a Lot of ramp, a lot of card draw, a lot targeted single use removal.

And very very few creature, token generators, and sac outlets (well, maybe enough of these).

Your deck is fundamentally a creature based deck. Creatures can be used to generate mana, they can be used to kill other creatures, to draw cards, and sometimes to tutor or reanimate other creatures.

The deck right now seems to be built to ramp/draw into a combo it doesn't have. You do have the reveillark and karmic guide combo, but that doesn't need half the ramp you have in the deck.

If you don't want to combo out you need to skimp on one of the following: Cards that can loop creatures, cards that sac cards that can be looped, cards that win the game when looping.

Some more concrete tips. Wood elves over natures lore at least. Cut some of the other spell based ramp. Saproling Cluster is a token generator that is in a way better in Karador than in ghave since you can discard a creature and then cast it from your graveyard anyway (beware that fecundity saproling cluster earthcraft and a sac outlet lets you cycle through your deck). Underworld connections is lame. Boundless realms is lame unless you have a landfall trigger out and unless you're All in on a landfall deck instead of a token deck I would cut it for being a dead draw or excessive to your needs too often.

You need more room for creatures anyway. With so many death triggers you might consider Viscera seer and carrion feeder as cheap sac outlets.

Deranged hermit is 5 for 5 creatures. When your creature count goes up, Tombstone Stairwell is a Massive source of tokens, ETB triggers and Dies triggers. Consider moving toward more creature based removal. Fiend hunter has synergy with sac outlets and sun titan, plus Karador of course. Though I guess he'd also Loop with sun titan, but you don't seem to have lethal sac outlets right?

You are shying away from accidental combos right?

After playing 4 games, I believe you hit it on the nail. I had several games with 15, 18, etc. mana out, but nothing effective to actually play. The deck lad lots of ramp, but was short on 'business'. One game I got the right draw to win big, the others I sputtered along. The mana was nice with Sacred Mesa out, but not too many other uses. The good news is I had fun playing the deck, even with its issues.

After getting Karador online a few times, yeah more creatures in general would be nice, especially those that can directly replace spells. I actually made a powerful play bringing back Sakura-Tribe Elder a few times and then sac'ing it for land with gravepact out. And elder only made the 1st cut on accident, lol. I'll definitely look at creature ramp and removal options I have access to.

Deranged Hermit looks great for this deck as does saproling cluster..

Yeah I an trying to make an essentially combo free deck. I'm not against combos, I just like them to be a rare occurrence preferably after a while of play. Ghave combo'd on accident most of the time and I got tired of it. One or both of guide and lark will probably make the immediate chopping block. fecundity will likely make the cut for the same reason. Without a game winning combo, drawing the deck is pointless. I'd like to keep earthcraft around as it shouldn't lead to too many problems. To your question, I don't believe there are any lethal sac outlets.

Thanks for your input.

I'm tentatively looking at these creatures to help raise the creature count and replace some of the spell ramp and hate. I definitely have too much ramp so that is the first place tolook. I have some sac outlets, permanent destruction, ramp and token producers to add to the ranks of the deck. Let me know if I'm missing any creatures that stand out.

Martyred Rusalka, Acidic Slime, Angel of Despair, Bone Shredder, Fleshbag Marauder, Harmonic Sliver, Necrotic Sliver, Fierce Empath, Farhaven Elf, Wood Elves, Deranged hermit, Fiend hunter, Saproling Cluster, Carrion Feeder, Ant Queen.

As far as cuts not sure yet. Oblivion Ring would be unnecessicary. The signets and Wayfarer's Bauble just aren't needed in a green deck. Additionally with the creature ramp, probably 2 and maybe 3 of Kodama's Reach, Cultivate, Skyshroud Claim, and Boundless Realms probably won't make it. Hoofprints of the stag is also basically terrible and will make the cut. Underworld connections isn't great but I'm not sure of a better reusable draw sorce either.

I seem high on enchantments, but at the same time I'm not sure of ones to cut. A lot are very strong, but at the same time 'do nothing' by themselves like parallel lives or gravepact. After another round of playtesting, I may have to pick a more aggro theme beastmasters ascension or more controlly theme Aura Shards and cut enchantments accordingly.

Final thought: planeswalkers for the deck. All 3 Garruks, both Elspeths, Sorin LoI, and possibly ajani seem to work with a token theme, but at the same time are not creatures and harder to return. Are any of them worth a spot over a creature or enchantment token producer?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I don't really like the idea of junk tokens, he's more of a White, Green, Black Mimeoplasm of a sort, the only reason that is is because of the resurrection. I would go for mill/ ressurect big fatties.

In my experience planeswalkers are way less reliable and interactive then just more creatures. Although emblems are really cool.

Grave pact is a great way to deal with pretty much anything except that one angel that stop sac effects, so I wouldn't cut it.

Not everyone agrees with me on this so take it with a grain of salt, but I don't like attrition in a deck that already has Gravepact and martyr's bond. That's just me, but I don't like that they can sac the creature you're targeting. Others are cool with it, it is a sac outlet and more removal.
I didn't think about it but underworld connections has synnergy with earthcraft, and you have a fair amount of enchantment tutor so it isn't an unreasonable interaction.

I like the sliver package. You removal section is getting quite buff and repeatable. I'd consider cutting some (or all depending on preference) of your instant based removal and your regrowth to make room for stuff that interacts with tokens more.

Depending on budget/availability Chord of calling is a Huge deal. It is kinda nuts. You can tap out to put creatures/tokens onto the field and Still have an instant speed response for almost anything. My favorite thing is to get eternal witness with it so you can get eternal witness going and put it back in your hand for later.

In the budget category there is Sengir autocrat for a burst of tokens. 4 creatures for 4 mana. They are 0/1s and exile when he dies, but 4 creatures for 4 mana is pretty nice.

Well in my deck im doing something similar except loading the walkers! To the point try korozada guildmage which you can sack a creature for tokens and bring it back with karador!

Quote from Osuna

In my experience planeswalkers are way less reliable and interactive then just more creatures. Although emblems are really cool.

Grave pact is a great way to deal with pretty much anything except that one angel that stop sac effects, so I wouldn't cut it.

Not everyone agrees with me on this so take it with a grain of salt, but I don't like attrition in a deck that already has Gravepact and martyr's bond. That's just me, but I don't like that they can sac the creature you're targeting. Others are cool with it, it is a sac outlet and more removal.
I didn't think about it but underworld connections has synnergy with earthcraft, and you have a fair amount of enchantment tutor so it isn't an unreasonable interaction.

I like the sliver package. You removal section is getting quite buff and repeatable. I'd consider cutting some (or all depending on preference) of your instant based removal and your regrowth to make room for stuff that interacts with tokens more.

Depending on budget/availability Chord of calling is a Huge deal. It is kinda nuts. You can tap out to put creatures/tokens onto the field and Still have an instant speed response for almost anything. My favorite thing is to get eternal witness with it so you can get eternal witness going and put it back in your hand for later.

In the budget category there is Sengir autocrat for a burst of tokens. 4 creatures for 4 mana. They are 0/1s and exile when he dies, but 4 creatures for 4 mana is pretty nice.

Thanks for these comments.

Yeah I thought about the synergy with Earthcraft and Underworld Connection at some point but haven't seen it yet. Underworld Connection is mediocre to OK by itself and potentially Yawgmoth's Bargain if Earthcraft is out with tokens.

Chord of calling looks perfect for the deck so I picked up a copy.

Quote from lord of whatever

Well in my deck im doing something similar except loading the walkers! To the point try korozada guildmage which you can sack a creature for tokens and bring it back with karador!

Which walkers do you like the best? Sorin, Lord of Innistrad looks nice for the emblem and Elspth Tirel's lifegain could help win a few games.

I'll have to try korozada guildmage.



So here are the changes I'm making for this round:

In: Martyred Rusalka, Farhaven Elf, Wood Elves, Fierce Empath, Bone Shredder, Fleshbag Marauder, Harmonic Sliver, Necrotic Sliver, Deranger Hermit, Ant Queen, Angel of Despair, Chord of calling, Diablic Intent, Idyllic Tutor

Out: Boundless Realms, Wayfarer's Bauble, Oblivion Ring, Mortify, Fecundity, Golgari Signet, Selesnya Signet, Orzhov Signet, Hoofprints of the Stag, Putrefy, Regrowth, Skyshroud Claim, Darksteel Ingot, Cultivate


So I added 11 Utility Creatures to the deck to up the creature count to 32 (I still probably need a few more), and 3 tutors to help fish out the good pieces.

So I took out all of the artifact ramp and half of the sorcery ramp, O-Ring and all the instant speed hate other than StP, hoofprints was terrible, regrowth is redundant, and fecundity leads to some broke gameplay I don't want.

I had 2 outings with the deck over the weekend and it performed a great deal better. It may be a bit weak still, but Karador may just be lower power than I'm used to and tokens is not the idea strategy with him, but this is my pet deck and I have fun with it.

The one glaring weakness I did see was in the area of draw. What draw options do I have on top of the ones I have? I never seemed to have a steady stream of cards and playing in top deck more more than I was comfortable. On a side note, I did get Earthcraft and Underworld Connections off of a wheel of fortune effect, but didn't have a chance to go nuts with it.

Fecundity was one of the big ones for tokens, but you can always stoneforge mystic as a second skullclamp.

But with Karador you can do some casting from the grave to conserve hand size. I've seen other karador players use cards like elvish visionary as repeatable card draw with karador, but I haven't tried it so I can't speak for the effectiveness.

I do run Oracle of mul daya which Technically isn't card draw, but is a source of card advantage and draw fixing.

I had a golgari EDH that ran her with Necropotence and a synergy I didn't think of in deck construction was evident immediately.

Reveal the top card of my library, not a land pay 1 life. Not a land pay 1 life. Land, put into play. Not a land pay one life. Land put into play. Pay life until a land is revealed pass turn. Next turn? I'mma play that land from the top of my library and have ramped a bunch of land with a fist full of cards.

Necropotence might not be as good here with 3 colors and at least 1 discard outlet (saproling cluster), but it is sorta the grand daddy of busted draw power.

It looks like you haven't been able to let go of your GWB goodstuff build. You still have a lot of cards that are all high quality, but not supporting your goal. Take Harmonic Sliver for example. It's a fine card that does useful stuff, and has nice synergy with your recursion package. But it doesn't support your token theme. Meanwhile, you also have plenty of tutors and an Aura Shards that does the same thing once you get it up and running. It seems like it'd be easier to let Harmonic Sliver be another token effect...

If it was my deck, I'd cut these goodstuffs:

• Bone Shredder
  
• Fleshbag Marauder
  
• Yavimaya Elder
  
• Necrotic Sliver
  
• Harmonic Sliver
  
• Angel of Despair
  
• Ambition's Cost
  

I'd also cut Luminarch Ascension (it forces people to attack you, which is awful if your plan is to grind value), Creakwood Liege (it's been too slow in every deck I've played it in), and Martyred Rusalka and Martyr's Cause (they're not bad, but there's an upgrade).

And I think swapping out Diabolic Tutor and Wrath of God for Increasing Ambition and Martial Coup is a straight upgrade. Small change, but makes a big difference (especially the coup).

For token-generating creatures, I'd look for etb/death-trigger based creatures to work with Karador and your sac outlets. I think these are all great options:
Hornet Queen (efficient, recurs with Reveillark)
Knight-Captain of Eos (also 'lark-able, replaces Martyr's Cause/Martyred Rusalka)
Cloudgoat Ranger
Captain of the Watch
Skeletal Vampire (built in sac outlet)
Symbiotic Wurm
Pawn of Ulamog (again, built-in sac outlets)
Requiem Angel (it triggers off non-spirits, which is amazing, because all of your other tokens will trigger it)

Even though the deck probably wants to focus on etb/dies triggers, I think Hero of Bladehold is underrated in EDH, and Kessig Cage Breakers seems amazing in this deck.

As for mana dumps, Selesnya Guildmage does what you need. It's not super-exciting, but it pumps out guys and pumps them up, and it's a convenient size for Sun Titan and Lark. You can also get more mileage out of your lands by adding Springjack Pasture and Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree; whenever you have mana up, just make more critters.

Have you thought about Doubling Season? It seems an effect you want and it stacks with Parallel Lives.

One of the things about Karador (and Ghave too) is that they take a while to get off the ground. That's why I love the fog creatures with them. Kami of False Hope and Spore Frog are really cool guys that help you get off the ground.

Quote from Kemev

It looks like you haven't been able to let go of your GWB goodstuff build. You still have a lot of cards that are all high quality, but not supporting your goal. Take Harmonic Sliver for example. It's a fine card that does useful stuff, and has nice synergy with your recursion package. But it doesn't support your token theme. Meanwhile, you also have plenty of tutors and an Aura Shards that does the same thing once you get it up and running. It seems like it'd be easier to let Harmonic Sliver be another token effect...

If it was my deck, I'd cut these goodstuffs:

• Bone Shredder
  
• Fleshbag Marauder
  
• Yavimaya Elder
  
• Necrotic Sliver
  
• Harmonic Sliver
  
• Angel of Despair
  
• Ambition's Cost
  

I'd also cut Luminarch Ascension (it forces people to attack you, which is awful if your plan is to grind value), Creakwood Liege (it's been too slow in every deck I've played it in), and Martyred Rusalka and Martyr's Cause (they're not bad, but there's an upgrade).

And I think swapping out Diabolic Tutor and Wrath of God for Increasing Ambition and Martial Coup is a straight upgrade. Small change, but makes a big difference (especially the coup).

For token-generating creatures, I'd look for etb/death-trigger based creatures to work with Karador and your sac outlets. I think these are all great options:
Hornet Queen (efficient, recurs with Reveillark)
Knight-Captain of Eos (also 'lark-able, replaces Martyr's Cause/Martyred Rusalka)
Cloudgoat Ranger
Captain of the Watch
Skeletal Vampire (built in sac outlet)
Symbiotic Wurm
Pawn of Ulamog (again, built-in sac outlets)
Requiem Angel (it triggers off non-spirits, which is amazing, because all of your other tokens will trigger it)

Even though the deck probably wants to focus on etb/dies triggers, I think Hero of Bladehold is underrated in EDH, and Kessig Cage Breakers seems amazing in this deck.

As for mana dumps, Selesnya Guildmage does what you need. It's not super-exciting, but it pumps out guys and pumps them up, and it's a convenient size for Sun Titan and Lark. You can also get more mileage out of your lands by adding Springjack Pasture and Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree; whenever you have mana up, just make more critters.

Testing showed me you are pretty much spot on. I've picked up a number of the pieces you recommended and I'll be updating the list soon with a bunch more token producers.

I've seen Hero of Bladehold go nuts with the same enchantments I'm running. Its definitely in.

Quote from Lionheart

Have you thought about Doubling Season? It seems an effect you want and it stacks with Parallel Lives.

Unless I start rolling lots of walkers (which I might) I don't see a good reason to go that direction. I have borderline too many enchantments already

Quote from Nuclearsunburn

One of the things about Karador (and Ghave too) is that they take a while to get off the ground. That's why I love the fog creatures with them. Kami of False Hope and Spore Frog are really cool guys that help you get off the ground.

Yeah, this deck is inherently a slow, midrangy deck that takes a while to get going. I may need to look into a few of these guy to give me time to set up.

Quote from jmdt

I had 2 outings with the deck over the weekend and it performed a great deal better. It may be a bit weak still, but Karador may just be lower power than I'm used to and tokens is not the idea strategy with him, but this is my pet deck and I have fun with it.

The one glaring weakness I did see was in the area of draw. What draw options do I have on top of the ones I have? I never seemed to have a steady stream of cards and playing in top deck more more than I was comfortable. On a side note, I did get Earthcraft and Underworld Connections off of a wheel of fortune effect, but didn't have a chance to go nuts with it.

Disciple of Bolas Have some life gain to go with your card draw.:D