Ok, I had actually forgotten that he ran Survival here. I run my deck as more of a control deck with big finishers and ramp. Without the survival in the deck would you still run the small guys?
As for the Wheel, I guess I have more of the big finsher cards so I would rather just me draw rather than giving my opponents fuel as well. I guess you answered most of my questions as to why card x or y in this build. Thanks
Areo, hit the nail on the head here. Survival of the Fittest is the glue that holds these pieces together. Without the Survival, I can’t honestly answer how this deck would look. I’d probably cut red altogether.
Avatar of Woe and Visara the Dreadful shine in the late game. If you’re playing against decks that don’t go to the late game then I can understand the desire to cut one of these if not both. They are threats, but so are most of the cards in this deck. It makes your opponents prioritize which threat of yours is greater. Haste makes them exponentially better. As a side note, I’ve found myself destroying themselves to their own ability if needed in response to them being targeted with an exile effect. There is enough recursion in the deck to bring them back later.
Wheel of Fortune – It may give your opponents cards but it completely changes game strategies. Have you tried playing it with the divinity counter on still on Myojin of Night's Reach, when an opponent has over seven “good” cards in their hand, when you have a Leyline of the Void in play, early game when you need to make a land drop, etc. I don’t cast if when I am have card advantage and I don’t need to dig for answers; otherwise, it opens the door to options.
So Steino, I just started playing EDH myself, and I'm probably going to borrow heavily from your list. I love Survival, its probably the reason I've got interest in the format in the first place. Survival being banned in legacy makes me sad.
I'd make a few changes from your list though....you've got most of the bases covered.
Constant Mists -> Garruk
Crucibles have a short lifespan around me. I'd rather not be sac-ing lands. That, and Spike Weaver does a pretty good job on his own as a "don't attack me" card. More accel in its place.
Sword of Fire and Ice -> Fauna Shaman
Survivals have an equally short lifespan. SoFI itself has few useful equip targets in this deck, so I went for redundancy. SoLS I left in because the recursion bit can be handy.
Nihil Spellbomb -> Guiltfeeder
I noticed you did the reverse on this one. I played quite a bit of Guiltfeeder in a casual deck many years ago, so it has a special place in my heart. Why'd you swap them to begin with?
Leyline of the Void -> Scavenging Ooze
Creature. And it's much better than Withered Wretch, particularly in a primarily green deck.
Sarkhan Vol -> Sarkhan the Mad
I have a soft spot for Sarkhan the Mad. I love Dark Confidant, but it's not so hot in EDH. I don't have a Diamond Valley, so Vol's steal effect is likely to do less. You can also steal your dragons back with Karrthus.
Diamond Valley -> Swamp
Don't have one. Ah well.
Bazaar -> Command Tower
Again, don't have one. This would be Grand Coliseum -> Command Tower otherwise.
Beseech the Queen -> Praetor's Grasp
This one's just a personal pet card for me. They're both tutors, but I find Grasp really fun to cast.
Constant Mists is one of the few non-permanent cards I play with because it can be protected in my hand. If a player is going to try to take you out they will bounce/kill the Spike Weaver before their turn starts. I don’t like sacerficing lands either, but this card is still very good with mana ramp (Oracle of Mul Daya) Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam.
A long time ago I used to play with Moment's Peace and Dawnstrider. I found that smart players would attack me just to force me use the flashback. Dawnstrider was good in theory, but died easily and useless if it didn’t have haste.
Essentially I play with Sword of Fire and Ice because of the card drawing ability and the potential to have protection from someone’s General. I’ve thought about Fauna Shaman, but it felt too slow. If you’re going to play with her I’d suggest running Seedborn Muse and possibly Winding Canyons.
Nihil Spellbomb -> Guiltfeeder
Guiltfeeder was a great finisher especially when I could make a copy with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Over the last year or so players have started to pick up on recursion and twister effects meaning Guiltfeeder was to slow to kill them and I needed an answer to exile cards in their graveyard to slow down my opponents. Graveyard hate and Guiltfeeder are counter productive.
I am going to cut Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger and run Scavenging Ooze when I acquire one. I want that Survival target back. Vorinclex has been pretty lackluster and is pretty much a win more card. This will up my graveyard hate to four cards which is really needed in my playgroup. Leyline of the Void might seem weak, but if your meta runs twister effects and a decent amount of recursion or survival decks, I’d keep it in.
Bazaar of Baghdad – Pick one up and this deck becomes that much better. It can dig for answers, turn useless cards into something useful, it is another discard outlet, it works great with Life from the Loam. Simply put this card offers potential.
I’m not a fan of randomness so personally I would not play with Chaos Warp. If I could run more than 100 cards Tooth and Nail would be in the list.
After a long debate I've decided to add Nim Deathmantle to my list. The debate came in the form of what to take out in it's place. Since I don't like to run a high number of equipment I've decided to take out Lightning Greaves. Hopefully, the haste it provided will be overshadowed by the recursion the Deathmantle brings with it.
Massacre could be a potential board wipe and damage dealer?
I think you’re correct about this. It would be nice to take down an army of tokens or utility creatures with one creature. I like that the ability will still trigger for tokens even when Leyline of the Void is in play.
The tough question is always: What do I swap for it? I’m going to try taking Visara the Dreadful out for Massacre Wurm. They have the same mana cost. I lose the ability to destroy any targetable creature, but I can wipe an army of tokens and the Massacre Wurm can also be used to eliminate an opponent with it’s second trigger.
With that change I am also going to swap out Darksteel Ingot (personal fan favorite) for Winding Canyons. I’ll lose the ability to make colored mana, but I’ll see if the utility from this land makes up for it.
-Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon was mentioned as an alternative win-con while, but now i see does not fit the style of your deck
-Wurmcoil Engine seemed to have the most synergy with this kind of deck. Kiki could give you tokens while welder kept bringing it back while you could sac it for life, cards or other means while getting token after token for it. Keeping up constant aggro and pressure whilst gaining life for it and using death touch as a "come at me bro" type position.
-Glissa, the Traitor: with all your recursion/spot removal and artifacts being put into the grave I thought she would be a good back up plan encase welder dies or use in synergy with him. She also works great with Executioner's Capsule which is a welder target as well a Glissa target which is better then bone shredder I think in this aspect (though i could be wrong). Or would that ruin the rock theme?
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Been meaning to ask. Why is Big Game Hunter good? There are better cards like out there that are inexpensive while not being restricted to power 4 or greater?
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last but not least i noticed abit lacking of card draws in the deck, do u find yourself having trouble with that? was thinking of cards like sylvan library and mind's eye..
-Glissa, the Traitor: with all your recursion/spot removal and artifacts being put into the grave I thought she would be a good back up plan encase welder dies or use in synergy with him. She also works great with Executioner's Capsule which is a welder target as well a Glissa target which is better then bone shredder I think in this aspect (though i could be wrong). Or would that ruin the rock theme?
I feel I am too light on artifacts and spot removal to get the most out of Glissa, the Traitor.
The nice thing about Bone Shredder is that it’s a creature, only costs 3 mana, has flying (great chump blocker), has one toughness (Skullclamp friendly), and believe it or not the Echo is a nice way to let it go to the graveyard to pick it back up with something like Genesis, Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Reclamation or Nim Deathmantle (there a are a few more ways beyond these four).
Been meaning to ask. Why is Big Game Hunter good? There are better cards like out there that are inexpensive while not being restricted to power 4 or greater?
Before I played this card I used to play Nekrataal and Flametongue Kavu – both have weaknesses. Big Game Hunter can be cast at instant speed with madness using Survival of the Fittest or Bazaar of Baghdad and does not have the restriction of targeting a non-black non-artifact creature. He is instant speed removal that can target black creatures! (and Skullclamp friendly for more recursion.)
I prefer Bone Shredder for the reasons listed above. If I want to keep Shriekmaw in play I have to spend more mana up front and I’d rather have flying over fear.
Sarkhan Vol is amazing removal when combined with a sac outlet. It can take care of indestructible creatures. My favorite play is to steal an opponents Primeval Titan attack and find a Bojuka Bog and with the graveyard exile trigger on the stack sac their Titan so it gets exiled too. His first ability of +1/+1 and haste is just a good offense tactic after a board wipe or I can use a creature with a tap symbol. Haste is your friend in multiplayer. In my eyes and play style Sarkhan Vol only has two abilities.
Sorin Markov is a six mana put someone at 10 so my combat step can do the rest. If it sticks around after that the first ability is decent as an alternate win condition if combat is not an option and it provides decent (not great) spot removal. Again, he doesn’t stick around long unless it is late game.
Where I play Planeswalkers typically only get used once or twice before they go away. So they need something big or give an answer to be useful.
Liliana Vess, turns into a five mana tutor. Not too impressive. Garruks are okay but they don’t do enough to justify running them if I only anticipate one or two uses before they go away.
I cut Sol Ring awhile ago. It is good for early game ramp and that is about it. It doesn’t stick around too long and is a bad late game draw. Helm of Obedience is not my kind of style when it comes to win conditions. If people saw it they would then perceive me as the #1 threat every game. “Hey this guy can one shot kill someone and there isn’t anything that can be done about it as long as he is in the game.” Trust me on this. I go after people for this reason alone. I play EDH to play not to lose in an instant to a two card combo. Again, mostly personal and social play styles as to why I don’t run it. Last point - Helm of Obedience doesn’t do enough for me by itself.
last but not least i noticed abit lacking of card draws in the deck, do u find yourself having trouble with that? was thinking of cards like sylvan library and mind's eye.
Mind's Eye is in the list. I typically do not find trouble with card draw. One of the nice things about a rock strategy is the artificial card advantage. I blow up a Pernicious Deed and lose a few permanents while my opponents can lose an entire field. Cards with come into play effects offer card advantage. Typically I am trying to win card advantage with tempo cards. Myojin of Night's Reach is card advantage along with the different recursion possibilities in the deck. In short there might not be a lot of cards that say draw a card but a lot of the cards in the deck create advantage. Sylvan Library I used to run this until Sensei's Divining Top was printed. I don’t like the fact that it was destroyed to a board wipe or that it doesn’t actually draw a card unless you pay 4 life.
I should have put Winding Canyons in a long time ago. It is another utility land that opens the door for potential plays in the deck.
I like Massacre Wurm's ability to take out an army of weenies and punish the opponent for having them. I had to cut something and hopefully I'll get more usage out of this card.
I am still having difficulty with Necrotic Ooze. I am not sure what it can replace in the deck or even if it should go in the deck for that matter. Thoughts, suggestions, and experiences with the card are welcome.
Necrotic Ooze is an awesome and fun card. Besides the obvious combo potential, it's also a nice way to have more redundancy. See Ooze as another Avatar of Woe, but then for just four mana. Hm, wrong example Anyway, even if it's just another STE it's a good use of a card slot. The card shines if your MVP has an activated ability. After your Rofellos or Welder ate all the hate, Ooze shows up to save the day.
Unfortunately one of your MVP's is Kiki-Jiki. I read you're aiming for an interactive game, and KJ+Ooze has no place in such a format. Outside this combo there's some less offensive stuff that I feel people could run. For example: Ooze plus Doomed Necromancer gives you a sacrifice loop for as much mana as you have, which is not infinite (and thus OK in my book). So, if you'd want to put Necrotic Ooze in, now you know what to take out I'm not sure if it'd be worth it, considering the praise KJ gets here. But if you feel the other cards with an activated ability are worth it, give it a try.
EDIT: I don't feel there's a lot I'd need to suggest, but Death Cloud seems like a good fit since you're running LftL.
Titan gives you tokens with every swing; and synergies with graveborn muse and other concepts while KT gives you draw and fetch that you can repeat with your kind of recursion?
I still think you should give Wurmcoil Engine a chance since it has so much synergy with the majority of your deck. Lifelink is win and with the Deathtouch, it makes your opponent think twice before swinging at you. Thus you can abuse making blockers and attackers with welder and eventually swing for the win
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Knowing that Necrotic Ooze and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker creates an infinite loop I will not add the Ooze anytime soon. It had a lot of potential and then it became broken.
Not sure if anyone is still monitoring this thread but I just want to say that I absolutely love this deck. It is a super efficient toolbox but yet does not have any uber broken combos that would normally make EDH boring.
One tweak I made however was that I changed the general to Adun Oakenshield. His ability is such a bargain and mixes very well with Sneak Attack. He's just another efficient way to recur your toolbox.
Not sure if anyone is still monitoring this thread but I just want to say that I absolutely love this deck. It is a super efficient toolbox but yet does not have any uber broken combos that would normally make EDH boring.
I’m still here and playing the deck. This has been my favorite deck to play for many years. You’re right about it missing the “uber broken combos” because the deck design and game play I enjoy the most are about board position and threat assessment.
One tweak I made however was that I changed the general to Adun Oakenshield. His ability is such a bargain and mixes very well with Sneak Attack. He's just another efficient way to recur your toolbox.
If Adun works better for you then power to you. The deck really is stand alone from the general. I like Karrthus because if you’ve noticed, the deck lacks creatures that are just pure aggro. Karrthus’ added pressure is the general damage win condition. Usually when I’m out of options or need to stop someone I turn the clock on.
Grave hate is picking up more in my area and Survival has a shorter life span. I love Goblin Welder, but lately I have less to do with it. Darksteel Forge and Reaper Kind are being played less in my area. Utility lands; however, have a strong presence. If only Goblin Settler came in black border I’d think about playing that over Avalanche Riders.
Grim Backwoods has caught my eye from the new set. I’m thinking of adding another element of instant recursion to the list and with it I’ll need more sac outlets to negate the drawback.
I’m looking at cutting Yavimaya Hollow and Viashino Heretic to add Grim Backwoods and Corpse Dance. I believe the latter two will add more versatility to the deck which means I had to find cards that could be cut. I’ll test to see if what I’m gaining will out shadow what I’m losing.
I've found that corpse dance can really be more of a hinder you more than set you forward unless you have the appropriate sac outlets set up. Otherwise you're getting rid of your own grave / toolbox. I guess the benefit here is you allow others to take out other peoples graves, but I think that with genesis and other recursion possibilities it just hurts too much.
Rofellos seems mediocre to me. I suppose if you have every forest in your deck in play you can potentially gain four G the turn he comes out assuming you have a haste enabler. That's also a lot of assumptions. I'm sure you've been suggested this before, but the urborg / coffers combo with primeval titan seems much more potent. And I feel that both Rofellos and Coffers will end up biting the dust shortly after being played, why not play the one which will benefit you more?
What is Squee's purpose? Certainly always have a chump blocker available I suppose. Reassembling Skeleton seems more versatile and cheaper if that were the case.
I feel like I may be lacking enchantment destruction. Although I've never had issues.
Anger always brought too much threat my way
Steel Hellkite always used to sit in my hand too long. I never really wanted to play him, even though he normally had the potential to be hasted. I love the card, and he's so versatile. He just didn't seem strong enough of a wincon, and wasn't strong enough a removal spell.
Mind's Eye always gets blown up in my meta. It's too strong if it stays out. I've opted for harder to remove options. Harmonize / Ancient Craving / Ambitions Cost / Decree of Pain have all worked out really well for me.
Grim Backwoods will increase my land sac outlets from two to three so I feel Corpse Dance is worth testing. I’m not a huge fan of Cabal Coffers in this build since I only run five swamps and without Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play Coffers will not do anything. The first two lands I tend to get with Primeval Titan are Diamond Valley and Volrath's Stronghold. The first is to protect it from being exiled and the second is to recur it if it happens to die. The next three lands that the Titan gets for me are Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Gaea's Cradle (huge off the back of Avenger of Zendikar) and Bazaar of Baghdad. The Urborg is intended to “turn on” the Valley, Bazaar and Cradle (if I don’t have any creatures in play) and fix my black mana needs. I really like the idea of Corpse Dance being an instant. Having the ability to respond on another players turn is huge which is why I really like playing with Sneak Attack and Winding Canyons.
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary holds his own in the list. There are actually ten forests in the deck (6 basics and 4 duals). I have 5 fetches, 3 spells that I use to get forests and two creatures that put basics into play so getting my forests into play is not difficult. Also I have an easier time recurring creatures than I do lands so when Roffellos dies I can just get him back. So far I’ve felt he is worth his spot.
Steel Hellkite is pretty good. I don’t look at it as a win condition but more as reusable removal. It has a lot of versatility which is why I really like it.
Anger puts a target on your back? Strange. It’s really good, but I haven’t really been targeted for having it in my graveyard. Usually my opponents are looking for a way to get rid of it.
I agree with Mind's Eye. I won’t play it unless I have mana open to potentially draw at least one card. Decree of Pain could be a better option here. Mind's Eye usually shines in the late game when most of my opponents have exhausted their resources or after a Myojin of Night's Reach and are in top deck mode.
Akroma's Memorial is like a super equipment. Protection from two colors, haste, flying and vigilance push it over the top. When I run across players who can’t deal with it the game is usually over for them quickly.
One thing to keep in mind with this deck and the people I play against: It is designed to win the long game. Sure it can win fast and if I put in cards like Sol Ring I could even make it more aggro, but it is intended to be a control deck.
I noticed you run Moment's Peace in your list. It used to be a great card when I played it, but then players became smarter and would just attack me to make me flash it back. I’ve found Spike Weaver to be a wonderful creature and I’d suggest you play it.
Grim Backwoods is a good idea. I think that will replace one of my colorless lands, and I think some of my other colorless will have to go. Played a game recently and got completely color screwed. As I don't have the $ for some of the good dual lands, basics will have to do
Corpse Dance with the appropriate sac outlets however, sounds effing dirty. I might have to make the substitution to my list.
As far as moment's peace is concerned, my meta runs A LOT of insurrection type "I'm going to wipe the whole table" effects, and I seldomly don't have blockers. Unless I'm going to get nailed for a ton of damage, it's seldom that I use it. I've taken fifteen points of damage before in one go because I knew when it came back around there was going to be fifty points of damage heading my way. Which is ultimately why I ended up adding Loxodon Warhammer in the deck so as to have a means of gaining some life back in between mitigations. I like the idea of spike weaver, but he seems harder for me to get back into play than a flashback. Not to mention it's less of a surprise and more pillowfort. Not my style, I'm more reactive than I am proactive most times.
I have an idea for you: Add Winding Canyons and Spore Frog to your list. With a bit of recursion it can do the trick. I’d also find a way to get Nim Deathmantle in your list too. That card is just nuts. I personally would rather play it over Lightning Greaves.
Have you thought about Explosive Vegetation? I feel I don’t run enough basics to make it worthwhile, but it could shine in yours.
Disclaimer: The following is a bad idea, but it can be a lot of fun: equip Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (has to be in the deck first) with a Loxodon Warhammer, use her third ability and rack in a lot of life.
Heretic is a good creature, but I had to make room and it doesn’t have a come into play ability. Yavimmaya Hollow seemed like the choice for the Backwoods because regeneration hasn’t been relevant lately. I wanted to add Crop Rotation so I would have instant access to a sac outlet and graveyard hate among other utility lands.
I was playing a few games with this deck yesterday and Corpse Dance made a huge impact on the game. The mana cost really read six. Five for the spell and Diamond Valley to sac my creature. Bazaar and Baghdad and Phyrexian Reclamation also went the extra mile with Corpse Dance. I had the ability to control what the top creature of my graveyard was.
I’ve been looking at Mikaeus and I feel it has potential to offer card advantage for the deck. Momentous Fall is another sac outlet, life gain and card draw in one spell at instant speed.
Phyrexian Arena is good but slow. By the time it get destroyed I’ve either drawn zero to a few cards from it. It’s great early game, but doesn’t help much to change the battle mid to late game when there are still a lot of players at the table. Similar with Minds’ Eye. I have to keep at least one open to draw a card off of it. The card is complexly nuts when it goes unanswered, but that is the problem. Players are aware of this and take it out when they see it.
I created the above thread to ask which was better. Riders or Goblin Settler. I thought the clear cut answer would be the Settlers, but it turns out more people liked Riders even though it doesn’t synergize with Mikaeus; however, Invader Parasite was mentioned in the thread and that is the card I decided on. For an extra red I can just exile the threat/nuisance lands and it still works with Mikaeus.
Another sac outlet added, another recursion piece added, and more synergy with the rest of the deck. These changes feel promising.
I also run Tooth 'n' Nail in everything that will support it.
This is the wrong deck for infinite combo. That is the same reason I don’t run Necrotic Ooze. The intention of this deck design is to play games of attrition.
I don’t run cards like Tooth and Nail or Genesis Wave in here because they feel too much like autopilot cards and don’t take much skill to play with.
These card choices (or lack there of) pretty much come down to personal preference and attempts at walking that fine line between “fun” games and lackluster games.
This guy looks like it has a lot of potential. The timmy in me wants to cut Graveborn Muse for it. It’s double the mana cost and has a much better ability, and can actually be used as a finisher.
I’m a little worried about the mana cost, and realistically Rune-Scarred Demon would be a better cut. I think I’ll try it in place of Graveborn Muse at first.
Areo, hit the nail on the head here. Survival of the Fittest is the glue that holds these pieces together. Without the Survival, I can’t honestly answer how this deck would look. I’d probably cut red altogether.
Squee, Goblin Nabob and Anger are the primary reasons to add red to the deck.
Avatar of Woe and Visara the Dreadful shine in the late game. If you’re playing against decks that don’t go to the late game then I can understand the desire to cut one of these if not both. They are threats, but so are most of the cards in this deck. It makes your opponents prioritize which threat of yours is greater. Haste makes them exponentially better. As a side note, I’ve found myself destroying themselves to their own ability if needed in response to them being targeted with an exile effect. There is enough recursion in the deck to bring them back later.
Wheel of Fortune – It may give your opponents cards but it completely changes game strategies. Have you tried playing it with the divinity counter on still on Myojin of Night's Reach, when an opponent has over seven “good” cards in their hand, when you have a Leyline of the Void in play, early game when you need to make a land drop, etc. I don’t cast if when I am have card advantage and I don’t need to dig for answers; otherwise, it opens the door to options.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
I'd make a few changes from your list though....you've got most of the bases covered.
Constant Mists -> Garruk
Crucibles have a short lifespan around me. I'd rather not be sac-ing lands. That, and Spike Weaver does a pretty good job on his own as a "don't attack me" card. More accel in its place.
Sword of Fire and Ice -> Fauna Shaman
Survivals have an equally short lifespan. SoFI itself has few useful equip targets in this deck, so I went for redundancy. SoLS I left in because the recursion bit can be handy.
Nihil Spellbomb -> Guiltfeeder
I noticed you did the reverse on this one. I played quite a bit of Guiltfeeder in a casual deck many years ago, so it has a special place in my heart. Why'd you swap them to begin with?
Leyline of the Void -> Scavenging Ooze
Creature. And it's much better than Withered Wretch, particularly in a primarily green deck.
Sarkhan Vol -> Sarkhan the Mad
I have a soft spot for Sarkhan the Mad. I love Dark Confidant, but it's not so hot in EDH. I don't have a Diamond Valley, so Vol's steal effect is likely to do less. You can also steal your dragons back with Karrthus.
Diamond Valley -> Swamp
Don't have one. Ah well.
Bazaar -> Command Tower
Again, don't have one. This would be Grand Coliseum -> Command Tower otherwise.
Beseech the Queen -> Praetor's Grasp
This one's just a personal pet card for me. They're both tutors, but I find Grasp really fun to cast.
Also for consideration somewhere: Chaos Warp and Tooth and Nail?
Time to bring back a 5-year old sig banner. DEDICATION!
Currently Playing:
=Legacy=
RUUG Delver
=Modern=
BRRG LOAM
=EDH=
BGGR Karrthus
RRRX Norin
UUWW Bruna
BBBB Skithiryx
Constant Mists is one of the few non-permanent cards I play with because it can be protected in my hand. If a player is going to try to take you out they will bounce/kill the Spike Weaver before their turn starts. I don’t like sacerficing lands either, but this card is still very good with mana ramp (Oracle of Mul Daya) Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam.
A long time ago I used to play with Moment's Peace and Dawnstrider. I found that smart players would attack me just to force me use the flashback. Dawnstrider was good in theory, but died easily and useless if it didn’t have haste.
Essentially I play with Sword of Fire and Ice because of the card drawing ability and the potential to have protection from someone’s General. I’ve thought about Fauna Shaman, but it felt too slow. If you’re going to play with her I’d suggest running Seedborn Muse and possibly Winding Canyons.
Nihil Spellbomb -> Guiltfeeder
Guiltfeeder was a great finisher especially when I could make a copy with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Over the last year or so players have started to pick up on recursion and twister effects meaning Guiltfeeder was to slow to kill them and I needed an answer to exile cards in their graveyard to slow down my opponents. Graveyard hate and Guiltfeeder are counter productive.
I am going to cut Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger and run Scavenging Ooze when I acquire one. I want that Survival target back. Vorinclex has been pretty lackluster and is pretty much a win more card. This will up my graveyard hate to four cards which is really needed in my playgroup. Leyline of the Void might seem weak, but if your meta runs twister effects and a decent amount of recursion or survival decks, I’d keep it in.
I am going to replace Grand Coliseum with Command Tower.
Bazaar of Baghdad – Pick one up and this deck becomes that much better. It can dig for answers, turn useless cards into something useful, it is another discard outlet, it works great with Life from the Loam. Simply put this card offers potential.
I’m not a fan of randomness so personally I would not play with Chaos Warp. If I could run more than 100 cards Tooth and Nail would be in the list.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Skithiryx could be a potential win-condition with it's infect along with your equip cards he could become a one punch dragon with haste.
Wurmcoil has synergy with Welder. It dies, you get tokens and you weld it back also kiki-jiki'ing a wurmcoil means a bad day for the opponent.
Glissa could help bring back artifacts for you, specially if you have Executioner's Capsule?
Massacre could be a potential board wipe and damage dealer?
I think you’re correct about this. It would be nice to take down an army of tokens or utility creatures with one creature. I like that the ability will still trigger for tokens even when Leyline of the Void is in play.
The tough question is always: What do I swap for it? I’m going to try taking Visara the Dreadful out for Massacre Wurm. They have the same mana cost. I lose the ability to destroy any targetable creature, but I can wipe an army of tokens and the Massacre Wurm can also be used to eliminate an opponent with it’s second trigger.
With that change I am also going to swap out Darksteel Ingot (personal fan favorite) for Winding Canyons. I’ll lose the ability to make colored mana, but I’ll see if the utility from this land makes up for it.
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon appears to only serve as a win condition and doesn’t do much to change the board position.
Glissa, the Traitor looks really cool, but I think I would have to devote more cards to her to build around her ability.
Wurmcoil Engine also looks like just a win condition grated the lifelink is very tempting.
@Darkdraak – I appreciate your suggestions.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
No problem Glad at least one of them was viable
-Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon was mentioned as an alternative win-con while, but now i see does not fit the style of your deck
-Wurmcoil Engine seemed to have the most synergy with this kind of deck. Kiki could give you tokens while welder kept bringing it back while you could sac it for life, cards or other means while getting token after token for it. Keeping up constant aggro and pressure whilst gaining life for it and using death touch as a "come at me bro" type position.
-Glissa, the Traitor: with all your recursion/spot removal and artifacts being put into the grave I thought she would be a good back up plan encase welder dies or use in synergy with him. She also works great with Executioner's Capsule which is a welder target as well a Glissa target which is better then bone shredder I think in this aspect (though i could be wrong). Or would that ruin the rock theme?
--
Been meaning to ask. Why is Big Game Hunter good? There are better cards like out there that are inexpensive while not being restricted to power 4 or greater?
some 2 cents since im very interested in making a karrthus deck...
was thinking, isn't shriekmaw better than Bone Shredder ?
and how has sarkhan vol and sorin markov fared for u in a multiplayer environment? ever considered liliana vess and the garruks?
didn't see sol ring, and also perhaps a helm of obedience as an alternate win con with the leyline of the void that u have in the deck?
last but not least i noticed abit lacking of card draws in the deck, do u find yourself having trouble with that? was thinking of cards like sylvan library and mind's eye..
looking forward to your input, cheers!
I feel I am too light on artifacts and spot removal to get the most out of Glissa, the Traitor.
The nice thing about Bone Shredder is that it’s a creature, only costs 3 mana, has flying (great chump blocker), has one toughness (Skullclamp friendly), and believe it or not the Echo is a nice way to let it go to the graveyard to pick it back up with something like Genesis, Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Reclamation or Nim Deathmantle (there a are a few more ways beyond these four).
Before I played this card I used to play Nekrataal and Flametongue Kavu – both have weaknesses. Big Game Hunter can be cast at instant speed with madness using Survival of the Fittest or Bazaar of Baghdad and does not have the restriction of targeting a non-black non-artifact creature. He is instant speed removal that can target black creatures! (and Skullclamp friendly for more recursion.)
I prefer Bone Shredder for the reasons listed above. If I want to keep Shriekmaw in play I have to spend more mana up front and I’d rather have flying over fear.
Sarkhan Vol is amazing removal when combined with a sac outlet. It can take care of indestructible creatures. My favorite play is to steal an opponents Primeval Titan attack and find a Bojuka Bog and with the graveyard exile trigger on the stack sac their Titan so it gets exiled too. His first ability of +1/+1 and haste is just a good offense tactic after a board wipe or I can use a creature with a tap symbol. Haste is your friend in multiplayer. In my eyes and play style Sarkhan Vol only has two abilities.
Sorin Markov is a six mana put someone at 10 so my combat step can do the rest. If it sticks around after that the first ability is decent as an alternate win condition if combat is not an option and it provides decent (not great) spot removal. Again, he doesn’t stick around long unless it is late game.
Where I play Planeswalkers typically only get used once or twice before they go away. So they need something big or give an answer to be useful.
Liliana Vess, turns into a five mana tutor. Not too impressive. Garruks are okay but they don’t do enough to justify running them if I only anticipate one or two uses before they go away.
I cut Sol Ring awhile ago. It is good for early game ramp and that is about it. It doesn’t stick around too long and is a bad late game draw. Helm of Obedience is not my kind of style when it comes to win conditions. If people saw it they would then perceive me as the #1 threat every game. “Hey this guy can one shot kill someone and there isn’t anything that can be done about it as long as he is in the game.” Trust me on this. I go after people for this reason alone. I play EDH to play not to lose in an instant to a two card combo. Again, mostly personal and social play styles as to why I don’t run it. Last point - Helm of Obedience doesn’t do enough for me by itself.
Mind's Eye is in the list. I typically do not find trouble with card draw. One of the nice things about a rock strategy is the artificial card advantage. I blow up a Pernicious Deed and lose a few permanents while my opponents can lose an entire field. Cards with come into play effects offer card advantage. Typically I am trying to win card advantage with tempo cards. Myojin of Night's Reach is card advantage along with the different recursion possibilities in the deck. In short there might not be a lot of cards that say draw a card but a lot of the cards in the deck create advantage. Sylvan Library I used to run this until Sensei's Divining Top was printed. I don’t like the fact that it was destroyed to a board wipe or that it doesn’t actually draw a card unless you pay 4 life.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
I took out City of Brass and Visara the Dreadful and put in Winding Canyons and Massacre Wurm.
I should have put Winding Canyons in a long time ago. It is another utility land that opens the door for potential plays in the deck.
I like Massacre Wurm's ability to take out an army of weenies and punish the opponent for having them. I had to cut something and hopefully I'll get more usage out of this card.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Necrotic Ooze is an awesome and fun card. Besides the obvious combo potential, it's also a nice way to have more redundancy. See Ooze as another Avatar of Woe, but then for just four mana. Hm, wrong example Anyway, even if it's just another STE it's a good use of a card slot. The card shines if your MVP has an activated ability. After your Rofellos or Welder ate all the hate, Ooze shows up to save the day.
Unfortunately one of your MVP's is Kiki-Jiki. I read you're aiming for an interactive game, and KJ+Ooze has no place in such a format. Outside this combo there's some less offensive stuff that I feel people could run. For example: Ooze plus Doomed Necromancer gives you a sacrifice loop for as much mana as you have, which is not infinite (and thus OK in my book). So, if you'd want to put Necrotic Ooze in, now you know what to take out I'm not sure if it'd be worth it, considering the praise KJ gets here. But if you feel the other cards with an activated ability are worth it, give it a try.
EDIT: I don't feel there's a lot I'd need to suggest, but Death Cloud seems like a good fit since you're running LftL.
Why don't you play Grave Titan or Krosan Tusker?
Titan gives you tokens with every swing; and synergies with graveborn muse and other concepts while KT gives you draw and fetch that you can repeat with your kind of recursion?
I still think you should give Wurmcoil Engine a chance since it has so much synergy with the majority of your deck. Lifelink is win and with the Deathtouch, it makes your opponent think twice before swinging at you. Thus you can abuse making blockers and attackers with welder and eventually swing for the win
Grave Titan doesn’t do anything to the board position. For an instant army I run Avenger of Zendikar.
I feel Krosan Tusker is too slow and it doesn’t put the lands into play.
I’m not a fan of Wurmcoil Engine. It is kind of like Grave Titan in that it doesn’t do much to change the board position.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
One tweak I made however was that I changed the general to Adun Oakenshield. His ability is such a bargain and mixes very well with Sneak Attack. He's just another efficient way to recur your toolbox.
I’m still here and playing the deck. This has been my favorite deck to play for many years. You’re right about it missing the “uber broken combos” because the deck design and game play I enjoy the most are about board position and threat assessment.
If Adun works better for you then power to you. The deck really is stand alone from the general. I like Karrthus because if you’ve noticed, the deck lacks creatures that are just pure aggro. Karrthus’ added pressure is the general damage win condition. Usually when I’m out of options or need to stop someone I turn the clock on.
Updates:
Goblin Welder -> Avalanche Riders
Grave hate is picking up more in my area and Survival has a shorter life span. I love Goblin Welder, but lately I have less to do with it. Darksteel Forge and Reaper Kind are being played less in my area. Utility lands; however, have a strong presence. If only Goblin Settler came in black border I’d think about playing that over Avalanche Riders.
Grim Backwoods has caught my eye from the new set. I’m thinking of adding another element of instant recursion to the list and with it I’ll need more sac outlets to negate the drawback.
I’m looking at cutting Yavimaya Hollow and Viashino Heretic to add Grim Backwoods and Corpse Dance. I believe the latter two will add more versatility to the deck which means I had to find cards that could be cut. I’ll test to see if what I’m gaining will out shadow what I’m losing.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Some differences I noticed between our lists:
I need a sneak attack and a pernicious deed
Rofellos seems mediocre to me. I suppose if you have every forest in your deck in play you can potentially gain four G the turn he comes out assuming you have a haste enabler. That's also a lot of assumptions. I'm sure you've been suggested this before, but the urborg / coffers combo with primeval titan seems much more potent. And I feel that both Rofellos and Coffers will end up biting the dust shortly after being played, why not play the one which will benefit you more?
What is Squee's purpose? Certainly always have a chump blocker available I suppose. Reassembling Skeleton seems more versatile and cheaper if that were the case.
I feel like I may be lacking enchantment destruction. Although I've never had issues.
Anger always brought too much threat my way
Steel Hellkite always used to sit in my hand too long. I never really wanted to play him, even though he normally had the potential to be hasted. I love the card, and he's so versatile. He just didn't seem strong enough of a wincon, and wasn't strong enough a removal spell.
Mind's Eye always gets blown up in my meta. It's too strong if it stays out. I've opted for harder to remove options. Harmonize / Ancient Craving / Ambitions Cost / Decree of Pain have all worked out really well for me.
How has Akroma's Memorial worked out for you?
Grim Backwoods will increase my land sac outlets from two to three so I feel Corpse Dance is worth testing. I’m not a huge fan of Cabal Coffers in this build since I only run five swamps and without Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play Coffers will not do anything. The first two lands I tend to get with Primeval Titan are Diamond Valley and Volrath's Stronghold. The first is to protect it from being exiled and the second is to recur it if it happens to die. The next three lands that the Titan gets for me are Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Gaea's Cradle (huge off the back of Avenger of Zendikar) and Bazaar of Baghdad. The Urborg is intended to “turn on” the Valley, Bazaar and Cradle (if I don’t have any creatures in play) and fix my black mana needs. I really like the idea of Corpse Dance being an instant. Having the ability to respond on another players turn is huge which is why I really like playing with Sneak Attack and Winding Canyons.
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary holds his own in the list. There are actually ten forests in the deck (6 basics and 4 duals). I have 5 fetches, 3 spells that I use to get forests and two creatures that put basics into play so getting my forests into play is not difficult. Also I have an easier time recurring creatures than I do lands so when Roffellos dies I can just get him back. So far I’ve felt he is worth his spot.
Squee, Goblin Nabob is there for Survival of the Fittest and [card]Bazaar of Baghdad[card]. Squee has other purposes, but those two use him the most.
Steel Hellkite is pretty good. I don’t look at it as a win condition but more as reusable removal. It has a lot of versatility which is why I really like it.
Anger puts a target on your back? Strange. It’s really good, but I haven’t really been targeted for having it in my graveyard. Usually my opponents are looking for a way to get rid of it.
I agree with Mind's Eye. I won’t play it unless I have mana open to potentially draw at least one card. Decree of Pain could be a better option here. Mind's Eye usually shines in the late game when most of my opponents have exhausted their resources or after a Myojin of Night's Reach and are in top deck mode.
Akroma's Memorial is like a super equipment. Protection from two colors, haste, flying and vigilance push it over the top. When I run across players who can’t deal with it the game is usually over for them quickly.
One thing to keep in mind with this deck and the people I play against: It is designed to win the long game. Sure it can win fast and if I put in cards like Sol Ring I could even make it more aggro, but it is intended to be a control deck.
I noticed you run Moment's Peace in your list. It used to be a great card when I played it, but then players became smarter and would just attack me to make me flash it back. I’ve found Spike Weaver to be a wonderful creature and I’d suggest you play it.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Corpse Dance with the appropriate sac outlets however, sounds effing dirty. I might have to make the substitution to my list.
As far as moment's peace is concerned, my meta runs A LOT of insurrection type "I'm going to wipe the whole table" effects, and I seldomly don't have blockers. Unless I'm going to get nailed for a ton of damage, it's seldom that I use it. I've taken fifteen points of damage before in one go because I knew when it came back around there was going to be fifty points of damage heading my way. Which is ultimately why I ended up adding Loxodon Warhammer in the deck so as to have a means of gaining some life back in between mitigations. I like the idea of spike weaver, but he seems harder for me to get back into play than a flashback. Not to mention it's less of a surprise and more pillowfort. Not my style, I'm more reactive than I am proactive most times.
I have an idea for you: Add Winding Canyons and Spore Frog to your list. With a bit of recursion it can do the trick. I’d also find a way to get Nim Deathmantle in your list too. That card is just nuts. I personally would rather play it over Lightning Greaves.
Have you thought about Explosive Vegetation? I feel I don’t run enough basics to make it worthwhile, but it could shine in yours.
Disclaimer: The following is a bad idea, but it can be a lot of fun: equip Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (has to be in the deck first) with a Loxodon Warhammer, use her third ability and rack in a lot of life.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Viashino Heretic, Yavimaya Hollow and Darksteel Ingot have been cut for Corpse Dance, Grim Backwoods and Crop Rotation.
Heretic is a good creature, but I had to make room and it doesn’t have a come into play ability. Yavimmaya Hollow seemed like the choice for the Backwoods because regeneration hasn’t been relevant lately. I wanted to add Crop Rotation so I would have instant access to a sac outlet and graveyard hate among other utility lands.
I was playing a few games with this deck yesterday and Corpse Dance made a huge impact on the game. The mana cost really read six. Five for the spell and Diamond Valley to sac my creature. Bazaar and Baghdad and Phyrexian Reclamation also went the extra mile with Corpse Dance. I had the ability to control what the top creature of my graveyard was.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Phyrexian Arena ->Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Mind's Eye -> Momentous Fall
Avalanche Riders -> Invader Parasite
I’ve been looking at Mikaeus and I feel it has potential to offer card advantage for the deck. Momentous Fall is another sac outlet, life gain and card draw in one spell at instant speed.
Phyrexian Arena is good but slow. By the time it get destroyed I’ve either drawn zero to a few cards from it. It’s great early game, but doesn’t help much to change the battle mid to late game when there are still a lot of players at the table. Similar with Minds’ Eye. I have to keep at least one open to draw a card off of it. The card is complexly nuts when it goes unanswered, but that is the problem. Players are aware of this and take it out when they see it.
Now for Avalanche Riders.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=402465
I created the above thread to ask which was better. Riders or Goblin Settler. I thought the clear cut answer would be the Settlers, but it turns out more people liked Riders even though it doesn’t synergize with Mikaeus; however, Invader Parasite was mentioned in the thread and that is the card I decided on. For an extra red I can just exile the threat/nuisance lands and it still works with Mikaeus.
Another sac outlet added, another recursion piece added, and more synergy with the rest of the deck. These changes feel promising.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
I also run Tooth 'n' Nail in everything that will support it.
This is the wrong deck for infinite combo. That is the same reason I don’t run Necrotic Ooze. The intention of this deck design is to play games of attrition.
I don’t run cards like Tooth and Nail or Genesis Wave in here because they feel too much like autopilot cards and don’t take much skill to play with.
These card choices (or lack there of) pretty much come down to personal preference and attempts at walking that fine line between “fun” games and lackluster games.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
This guy looks like it has a lot of potential. The timmy in me wants to cut Graveborn Muse for it. It’s double the mana cost and has a much better ability, and can actually be used as a finisher.
I’m a little worried about the mana cost, and realistically Rune-Scarred Demon would be a better cut. I think I’ll try it in place of Graveborn Muse at first.
I look forward to the play where I can Sneak Attack Griselbrand into play, attack and gain seven, sac it to Diamond Valley, recur it with Nim Deathmantle and at some point during all of this draw seven cards.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen