I’ve continued to have fun with this deck since early 2005 (interactive games that are not blowouts). It’s designed for competitive interactive multiplayer. (To me competitive means players are using optimized card choices and have answers in their decks.) If you want to enjoy a deck that shines in the mid to late game, then I suggest you give this list a shot.
In a field of aggro – this deck performs well.
I don’t run Mindslaver in this deck. If I wanted to play that type of game I’d switch switch decks.
If you’re familiar with “The Rock” arch-type then you’ll understand how to pilot this deck. Rock is a strong arch-type in multiplayer due to its nature of creating artificial card advantage and being able to neutralize the opponents’ board positions. The deck is control/aggro. It has a Survival toolbox (I suggest not going for survival in the early game).
The deck is not build around the General – Karrthus. He compliments the build and is a finisher that won’t be a dead draw in the deck itself. The idea behind many of the cards in the deck is to create card advantage by being reusable and to be able to compensate for most situations.
You may notice the lack of Sol Ring. They’re great early game, but fairly lack luster in the late game. I’ve seen too many of these be blown up or have no impact to the game state. The idea is to simply survive until you can out resource your opponents.
The deck does not play artifact mana accel due to the nature of blowing board. Searching out lands has proven to be a viable strategy. The deck runs a Survival toolbox. Most of the creatures have dual uses other than just attacking with them. Most of the cards in the deck are permanents which have also proven successful. Permanents are easier to bring back (and reuse) than an instant or sorcery. The deck is based green with the secondary color being black followed by red. Green is key and having access double black by turn three depending on the cards in hand is also helpful.
Darksteel Ingot – This fixes color and does not fall victim to destroy effects.
Sakura-Tribe Elder – Creature that is recurable and puts basic lands into play.
Solemn Simulacrum - Creature that is recurable and puts basic lands into play, draws cards and has synergy with [card]Goblin Welder[card].
Oracle of Mul Daya – Essentially doubles as card draw. It has great synergy with Crucible of Worlds and helps to reduce the drawback of the bounce lands. The deck offers a lot of ways to shuffle.
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary – He is the last of the mana elves to continue to make the cut. The deck has ten forests.
Plague Boiler, Oblivion Stone, Nevinyrral's Disk and Pernicious Deed - Trying to mana ramp in the early game is a justified strategy because while your opponets may be building their boards you can drop one of these and be ahead of the curve when the dust settles. They can also be used to defer an opponent from attacking you. Experienced players will attack into you to make you use them.
Damnation – Sometimes you only want to hit the creatures.
Myojin of Night's Reach – This deck is aggro/control. The aggro portion makes it difficult to play. You usually have three opponents so at any given time one of them should have an answer in hand to deal with your board position. This guy helps to remove your opponent’s options. I found the most efficient time to remove the counter is during the next opponent’s draw step. This offers the most bang for the buck.
Predator, Flagship – Colorless reusable removal. Also doubles to provide evasion in combat or allows you to block fliers. It seems slow and clunky, but when it goes unanswered it creates card advantage.
Big Game Hunter – It chains with Survival, can be instant speed removal and can destroy black creatures. It is good with recursion.
Bone Shredder – This card has not been outdated yet. At three mana (with echo which is optional) it will hit a nonblack non artifact creature and it has flying. I still play it due to the low mana cost (only one black in the cost) and it has flying. It is good with recursion.
Visara the Dreadful and Avatar of Woe – Reusable removal that becomes better with haste. Woe’s mana reduction clause can be very relevant.
Viashino Heretic – Reusable artifact removal. Has an efficient mana cost and activated ability and has a side bonus of dealing damage to opponent. This is a very good creature of what it does at the mana cost. It makes Reaper King players cringe.
Withered Wretch – For one mana it can remove a card from the graveyard. It can easily be tutored for and is very efficient at removing specific targets.
Leyline of the Void – Opponents have to deal with this. It can ruin player’s strategies during a massive discard.
Bojuka Bog – Having a way to Tormod's Crypt a player and net a land on the deal is a solid play. It offers reusability with the bounce lands and can be tutored with Primeval Titan.
Puppeteer Clique – This falls under graveyard hate and traditional recursion. It has the ability to take something game breaking from an opponents graveyard and it has persist. It also synergies with Miren, the Moaning Well and Sneak Attack.
Genesis – Part of the Survival Package. It nets cards from the graveyard.
Volrath's Stronghold – Another source of recursion. It can also protect certain cards from being exiled from the graveyard.
Sword of Light and Shadow – Yet another way to get creatures back from the graveyard. Gaining three life can also be relevant. The protection can be handy too.
Sensei's Divining Top – Being able to choose from the top three cards is strong. It also works well with shuffle and dredge effects. It compliments Oracle of Mul Daya nicely.
Wheel of Fortune – This card may seem bad because it seven new cards into each of your opponents hands but when new an answer or just better cards it is worth it. You can make your opponents discard their new hands if there is an active Myojin of Night's Reach. In that rare situation I play this card because I need to make an opponent discard their hand.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth – This creature has four functions. A 12/12 beat stick, draws four cards, makes an opponent sacrifice four permanents and can protect the graveyard from being exiled.
Bazaar of Baghdad – Tap: Draw two cards then discard three. This card is not very good in most decks; however this deck attempts to reduce the drawback and at times turn it into an advantage.
Anger – Part of the survival package. This is the one Incarnation from the uncommon that does not focus purely on combat. Haste is strong when it allows you to attack or use the tap ability immediately.
Sarkhan Vol – His first two ability are all that is needed to keep him in the deck. Haste and +1/+1 can be devastating. His second ability is dependent on your opponents board position and it also synergies with Miren, the Moaning Well.
Sneak Attack – Powerful card. The ability puts the creature into play at instant speed. It works well with persist. It can power out Kozilek, Butcher of Truth in the early game to completely setback an opponent. It negates the idea of echo since the creature will be sacrificed.
Spike Weaver – It can fog with out having haste. It can fog multiple turns before leaving play and is recurable.
Beseech the Queen – It can always find an answer, threat, or accel piece. At worst the card has the same mana cost as Diabolic Tutor.
Survival of the Fittest – The best creature tutor available. The deck does not need this card in play to win, but it runs that much better when it is out. Every creature has a purpose and can usually answer a specific situation.
Guiltfeeder – This card is just in here to beat down opponents. It triggers on not being blocked so Fog has not effect on it. Fear is also a nice evasion. It compliments well with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth.
Deranged Hermit – One card offers an instant army. Great for offense and defense. It compliments well with Skullclamp.
Sorin Markov – All three of his abilities are relevant. The second ability typically gets used first. He is an efficient way to put a player on a clock. His first ability offers an alternate with condition compared to combat.
Golgari Rot Farm, Gruul Turf and Rakdos Carnarium – All three of these lands make two colors. Color fixing is very important for this deck due to the number of basics I run. Their bounce effect keeps land drops possible. It allows for more than one use of Bojuka Bog. The extra land can also be pitched to Bazaar of Baghdad.
Yavimaya Hollow – Regeneration is strong. Targeted regeneration is even better. This deck plays enough board clearers for this land to shine.
Strip Mine and Wasteland – There are a lot of utility lands and lands that generate a large amount of mana that need to be dealt with in EDH.
Maze of Ith – This is another single fog effect via land form.
11 Basic lands – Part of the mana accel is based on finding basic lands. The deck is based green followed by black then red. Urborg and Bojuka Bog make up for only two Swamps.
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund – He is not the center of the deck. He is another win condition that has the ability to take out an opponent in three turns. Haste and seven power is why he replaced Darigaaz, the Igniter as the General. Randomly his ability to steal dragons does hose certain players.
Goblin Welder – I played Type 1 when this card was on top of the meta. Combing his ability with Survival of the Fittest is just pure power. Having an active Welder then chaining a Duplicant for a Solemn Simulacrum via Survial, play Solemn and weld him into a Duplicant is pure card advantage. You can either weld Duplicant into a Solemn the turn later or sac Duplicant and pick up Solemn via a recursion piece and do it again. Sylvok Replica is weldable for instant speed disenchant. Welder combines well with Bazaar of Baghdad. Discard the artifact you want in play and weld it for something less powerful. Welding at the end of the last opponents turn for a Nevinyrral's Disk helps to get around the come into play tapped drawback. He has so much potential. He can be used to weld your opponents artifacts too. Can’t destroy your opponents Darksteel Forge? Weld it for something less powerful. Turn off opposing equipment during combat. Etc.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth – This creature has four functions. A 12/12 beat stick (this piece is easy to overlook compared to what else it does), draws four cards (this alone is worth half the mana cost to play it), makes an opponent sacrifice four permanents (strong and will hurt opponents the most) and can protect the graveyard from being exiled (people may not like it when you play Eldrazi but this card is too good to pass up. At a certain point in the game someone may try to crypt you.
I’ve taken some photos of my Karrthus deck. It might be difficult to tell from the photos but every card in the deck printed after Scourge is foil. I miss the foil star. It made identifying foils much easier.
you play 7 red cards i can tell theyre powerful but i doubt its worth it
for plavor reasons you should be playing phyrexian plaguelord since its just not the rock without The Rock
also instead of those expensive and slow removal creatures (avatar and visara) you could use putrefy and something else like it since you have quite a bit of recursion
you should look at kagemaro, first to suffer he fits what you want to do and hits rather had if your card advantage engines have left you with a hand
if youre gonna keep red then look at decimate and hull breach and if you do tend to win with swinging with a swarm of squirrels or something try hit/run it may not be very good removal with the number of people that play mana rocks but the run portion is a good chunk of damage
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.“
you play 7 red cards i can tell theyre powerful but i doubt its worth it
for plavor reasons you should be playing phyrexian plaguelord since its just not the rock without The Rock
also instead of those expensive and slow removal creatures (avatar and visara) you could use putrefy and something else like it since you have quite a bit of recursion
you should look at kagemaro, first to suffer he fits what you want to do and hits rather had if your card advantage engines have left you with a hand
if youre gonna keep red then look at decimate and hull breach and if you do tend to win with swinging with a swarm of squirrels or something try hit/run it may not be very good removal with the number of people that play mana rocks but the run portion is a good chunk of damage
The red cards hold their slots firmly. Squee and Anger are part of an engine and Goblin Welder creates possibilities. He is one of the few ways to get Darksteel Forge off the table. Long story short the red cards in the deck are very good at what they do.
I used to play with Decimate, Hull Breach, Putrefy, Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse and Regrowth. These cards are great for 1 vs 1 since they hit the tempo just right. (Excluding Decimate since it requires four targets to cast it.) Removal is key. I’ve taken out some single target spells for board clears which is why I play with Plague Boiler. They may be a bit on the slow end but in Multiplayer offer more card advantage.
If done right Avatar of Woe only costs BB to cast and there are plenty of ways to give them haste.
I had to check out you're updated deck list. The deck looks awesome as usual.
I really like the new addition of Sylvok Replica for Viridian Zealot; he's more, but like you mentioned the synergy with him and Welder is really good.
In terms of Kagemaro, I'd say Kozilek definitely wins for that slot.
(But if I had the choice I'd take Bane over him as well, since the morph sometimes gives a sense of ambiguity making him less targetable, he comes out quicker, he can sometimes flip wiping out token armies and stay alive, and being a mana ramping deck your mana is probably a better source of -X/-X vs hand size, 'cause what if you have 0-3 cards late game, that won't save you against that green Stompy)
I still don't see Recruiter, I'll check back later to see when he gets added
I came across Phyrexian Reclamation and knew it would work wonders in the deck. I am in the process of testing it, but the initial game results have been amazing. It is cheap (manawise) and recurs creatures at instant speed. As with all cards I had to cut something to add it to the deck. Predator, Flagship fell to the chopping block this round. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve loved the card since Nemesis, but it is a bit mana intensive and all around slow. Very good but just slow.
Due to Phyrexian Reclamation’s life cost and it’s effect being useless if there are no creatures in my graveyard I am going to test Diamond Valley. I am going to test it in the place of Rupture Spire. I am going to lose the ability to make mana unless I have an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play, but I feel Diamond Valley will be less mana intensive then Miren, the Moaning Well and it would be nice to have both in the same deck since some players like to destroy my Miren, among other things.
I really like the new addition of Sylvok Replica for Viridian Zealot; he's more, but like you mentioned the synergy with him and Welder is really good.
I still don't see Recruiter, I'll check back later to see when he gets added
As for Imperial Recruiter . . . well some of us just don’t have the money to spend on cards like that . . . (If it gets reprinted then I might think about running it.)
I believe Steel Hellkite makes a good replacement for Plague Boiler since it only hits my opponents. It is nice to have some control over the chaos as opposed to just blowing up the entire board. They can both be pretty mana intensive, but the Hellkite is more offensive.
I finally got around to playing with Avenger of Zendikar and this card is insane. I wasn’t sure how well it would do compared to Deranged Hermit, but in one turn I was able to make 10 plant tokens, then play a fetch land, crack it, attack with all tokens, Avenger and a Primeval Titan allowing for two more triggers of landfall for a total of 40 points of damage from just the tokens alone.
Avenger of Zendikar is going to replace Deranged Hermit. Avenger does not have echo, and the potential it offers is less limited then the Hermit.
With the addition of the Avenger I’ve also decided to add Gaea's Cradle to the deck. I figure I finally have enough creatures in the deck to make this land consistent.
I enjoy the fact that I can sit across from an opponent and they are stumped at figuring out which of my lands is the strongest. The correct answer is all of them.
I am still having difficulty with Necrotic Ooze. I am not sure what it can replace in the deck or even if it should go in the deck for that matter. Thoughts, suggestions, and experiences with the card are welcome.
Yes, that was quite a "power play" yesterday. Good game!
Scion vs Karthus
So basically with the help of Oracle and Skyshroud Claim he was able to get Avenger of Zendikar out by turn 5-6'ish with some friendly 10 tokens. Before then there wasn't much on the board but his Pupeteer Clique (persist) since I reset the board with ***.
Survival was in play, along with Cradle (which was recovered previous turn with Witness) and on one turn was able to float 12 mana with cradle... get "Survival package" in yard, cast Kozilek, then swing with Titan (why not?) to landfall trigger the lil' critters, gg. Well played, ya jerk lol
Hello fellow Karrthus player! Love the foils, dual lands, and the cards I'm still looking to get, hope you are enjoying your deck as much as I like mine.
Obviously our lists are very different, mine being more aggresive while you are a rock deck! But I still think there's some cards I use that are worth consideration.
Mosswort Bridge / Spinerock Knoll - With both Primeval Titan and all 3 Bouncelands in your deck at least one of these is worth looking at. These lands give free CA and even count as casting the spell for Kozilek. Of course your meta may have more single target land destruction then mine, but better these get hit then your bouncelands sometimes.
Terastodon - Sometimes you need to kill more then 1 non-creature permenant, this is when I like Terastodon in addition to Woodfall Primus. Having another option like this for survival is great, but may be a little high on the mana cost for your deck.
Cabal Conditioning - Another Myojin of Night's Reach affect, worth consideration if you find youself wanting another one of those. Yes it requires you to have something in play, and it's not a creature. But the power level of the card is still very high.
Greater Good - Turns removal into CA and allows you to run through your deck quickly while putting relevant cards in your graveyard. The small size of your creatures makes this worse, but I think it's still worth looking into.
Krosan Tusker - Card draw that is Survivalable, great with Genesis, and just a good 3 mana instant effect.
Green Sun's Zenith - Rofellos, Oracle, Acidic Slime, Primeval Titan, Avenger, Woodfall Primus. You have good targets for this at almost every mana cost.
I’ve taken out Guiltfeeder and put in Nihil Spellbomb. I wanted a less mana intensive card that could Tormod's Crypt a player. As a bonus this card replaces itself with a card draw. Taking more of an anti graveyard approach renders Guiltfeeder to be less efficient. It also has some nice synergy with Goblin Welder.
@ kci2 – Thanks for the suggestions. I’ve looked at several of these and played with some of them before. Ultimately, from the suggestions I feel Green Sun's Zenith has the most potential to be added to this deck. This “just” begs the question of what would get cut.
@ Jary – Thanks for the games. I like your subtlety, but we both know I’m not going to cut Reiterate. That card is too amazing!
“You’re going to Genesis Wave for 33? I think I’ll do the same.” “Fireball for 47? Mine will resolve first.” “Counterspell? Counter your counter.” Then there is my favorite: “Decree of Pain? Looks like I’ll drawing those cards instead.”
After reading the spoiler I found at least one card that will make its way into this deck. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. I am having a lot of difficulties finding what card to remove to make room for it. Lucky there is some time to decide, but that doesn’t make it any easier.
This round was a tough choice. Lately Withered Wretch has been a little lack luster. I’ve been having greater success with Leyline of the Void, Nihil Spellbomb and Bojuka Bog. I think Vorniclex will have a greater impact on games then Withered Wretch. We’ll see . . .
Im also building a "Jund" EDH and i have to say this is the list i liked the most so far. It very similar of what i want in the deck.
However my general will be Andu Oakenshiled. It seems that He could have more synergy with the deck.
I also going to add as many permanent as i can and run Warp World and Genesis Wave (maybe) and with Anger and som other "Haste enablers" i could kill people after resolving those big spells.
Im still going to relay on the toolbox effect that this deck provides, I will roll like a Rock, but without having those last blow knockers.
About you list, I think you need to justify Gobling Welder a little bit more. He is amazing at what He does and the equipments and Crucible of World are not enough for him to exploit his potential. I dont mention the creatures He can get since Survival of the Fittest and black tutors are superior at that.
About you list, I think you need to justify Gobling Welder a little bit more. He is amazing at what He does and the equipments and Crucible of World are not enough for him to exploit his potential. I dont mention the creatures He can get since Survival of the Fittest and black tutors are superior at that.
Just for some background. I played with Goblin Welder when he was at the top of Vintage. 2004-6ish? Decks like Control Slaver and UbaStax ran him.
One thing to keep in mind is the potential he offers.
Common plays I’ll make with him involve a Survival chain putting Duplicant into the graveyard then welding a Solemn for the Duplicant. Return the Solemn with a recursion piece. Use a Sac outlet for Duplicant and repeat. – This can be modified depending on the game state.
Discard expensive spells like Akroma’s Memorial via Bazaar of Baghdad and weld it into play.
Instant speed (with Survial) weld in a Sylvok Replica and disenchant something.
At the end of my last opponents turn weld in a Nevinyarral’s Disk so that it will untap at the beginning of my turn.
Dig for answers with multiple Memory Jars.
Essentially welder offers many different plays depending on the game state. He is reusable and has a very efficient mana cost. Be creative.
Don’t forget that welder can be used on your opponents. Turn something good of theirs into something far worse in comparison.
Funny note: If you play with It that Betrays and you weld your opponents artifacts you get the one that was in play.
I really like your card choices except for the general. I feel kresh or adun oakenshield are better as generals for jund.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This is how I make mad money by doing what I already do, Shopping with Mr. Rebates. If you signup with my referral, send me an email and I will show you how to earn even more money.
The big difference is honestly the playstyle. Kresh and Oakenshield both require a build arround the commander approach for them to be effective. Karrthus on the other hand you can just make a solid deck and use him as a finisher. He is always scary every time he comes out and he requires very little support other than some mana ramping to get to the high end mana.
I think it is hard to say which commander is best but I have played both Kresh and Karrthus and I appreciate the ability to come out of nowhere and beat some face with Karrthus.
As a side note: have you ever considered running Seize the Day in here? I have used it for a ton of surprise damage. It works great as if someone has an answer for your big threat they will probably use it the first time you attack. If it goes nicely just start taking extra combat phases. It is great with Eldrazi attacks as well as I have used it with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth in the past to really just pound someone to death in one turn.
Another decent card I have made use of is Blades of Velis Vel. This card is heavily dependant on if you generally cast your commander every time he is ready or if you save him for a bit later in the game. I tend to try not to bring him out until late in the game so I can pay the extra 2 here. It is very very good in an agro heavy meta as you can steal 2 other creatures permenantly, give them haste, and give them +2/+0 until end of turn.
yes i have seize the day and savage beating in my deck. They prove to be very useful for some extra reach.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This is how I make mad money by doing what I already do, Shopping with Mr. Rebates. If you signup with my referral, send me an email and I will show you how to earn even more money.
The big difference is honestly the playstyle. Kresh and Oakenshield both require a build arround the commander approach for them to be effective. Karrthus on the other hand you can just make a solid deck and use him as a finisher. He is always scary every time he comes out and he requires very little support other than some mana ramping to get to the high end mana.
I think it is hard to say which commander is best but I have played both Kresh and Karrthus and I appreciate the ability to come out of nowhere and beat some face with Karrthus.
The card choices and General reflect my play style and play group. I tend to play control and like to have answers and outs to my opponent’s board positions. Thus far Karrthus has proven itself as the General of the deck. It used to be (Darigaaz, the Igniter.)
Karrthus has haste which means it can attack the turn I play it. It has seven power which turns it into a three hit win condition. It has flying which offers evasion to hit my opponents and if needed will save me as a blocker. The ability to steal all dragons is not to relevant, but still rather useful if the opportunity is available. If nothing else it will deter other players from playing their dragons.
Adun Oakenshield is cool, but does not put pressure on and is hurt by graveyard hate.
Kresh the Bloodbraided seems good, but he needs to be invested in to get him bigger and he doesn’t have haste or evasion.
As a side note: have you ever considered running Seize the Day in here? I have used it for a ton of surprise damage. It works great as if someone has an answer for your big threat they will probably use it the first time you attack. If it goes nicely just start taking extra combat phases. It is great with Eldrazi attacks as well as I have used it with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth in the past to really just pound someone to death in one turn.
I have thought about it, but the main intent of the card choices are to have answers and have the least number of dead cards as possible. I enjoy playing games of attrition. Extra combat phases feels like a win more type of card. If I am losing and there are opponents that have answers to my attack such as a Maze of Ith I will not being doing much with an extra combat.
Here's a consideration, Steino. Why not Sarkhan the Mad over Sarkhan Vol? Card advantage is always nice, spot removal is always nice, and more often than not you can take those dragon tokens back yourself with Karrthus.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Time to bring back a 5-year old sig banner. DEDICATION!
Here's a consideration, Steino. Why not Sarkhan the Mad over Sarkhan Vol? Card advantage is always nice, spot removal is always nice, and more often than not you can take those dragon tokens back yourself with Karrthus.
I’ve thought about Sarkhan the Mad. I have no intentions in cutting Sarkhan Vol since he is just too good at what he does. I think I’ve used his third ability once, maybe. His first two abilities are why he keeps his spot in the deck.
Primeval Titan, for example, is fairly popular in my play group. This makes Sarkhan Vol’s second ability efficient to deal with the titan. I typically take control of the opposing titan then use it to tutor up a bounce land and Diamond Valley using the trigger from the bounce land to return the Valley to my hand and play it that turn to sacrifice their titan. If I already have a Valley in play then I might tutor up a Bojuka Bog and sacrifice the titan in response to the Bog’s trigger.
Essentially, the haste and +1/+1 is very good. The threaten ability is removal when I have a sac outlet.
I’m not sure what I’d replace Sarkhan the Mad with. Phyrexian Arena? Then again, I’m not a fan of his third ability either or the fact he doesn’t have any plus abilities.
Keep in mind that some of these questions I am asking for my own deck. My approach is a bit different so I would love some reasoning behind why you like or dont like some of the suggestions if possible. That way I can tell if it would work out for me
Sylvok Replica - what all synergy have you had with this guy? His p/t are really weak and other than being an artifact that you could potentially use with the wielder I don't see why you chose him. Personally I would take a different creature for this spot and or perhaps even Beast Within for the instant speed solve anything approach.
Bone Shredder I for one hate the limitation of nonblack creature on this. Again I wonder if this could instead be something like Malestrom Pulse that can take out an entire token army or any other problem you might be having. Do you run this as a chump creature for the option to rez him? I would think that generally you will be killing off the creature that you would need to block with this guy so having the chump after the kill seems unnecessary especially since he has an echo cost.
Squee, Goblin Nabob ok I can see he is a reusable blocker. But how much use do you get out of him? Most of the real threats I see fly, have trample, or annihilate. I guess I am wondering what sort of use you get off of him. I have tried things like Reassembling Skeleton and have just not been impressed by it. What sort of functionality do you feel he has in respect to the skeleton?
Big Game Hunter I run him too but I have been considering cutting him. I dont have any means of recurring or repeatedly using him though. I do like how he can hit black creatures though as it is a problem from time to time. I was sort of thinking he might end up going out for the new Chaos Warp. Do you use him because you can recur him or because the chump blocker is useful to you?
Avatar of Woe / Visara the Dreadful I have to ask how often you ever get to actually use these? I used to play them but people would totally freak out on me and wrath the board or spot remove them before I could ever use them. I notice you have more means of giving haste in here though so I could see that panning out for you. Would you run these if you didnt have a reliable way to give them haste? I have just found them to be too big of a target for me to run them myself.
Wheel of Fortune why do you run this card draw outlet that helps everyone when you have other green and or black options that I would consider better as they dont help your opponents. You have at least 3 big ones that I can see that you dont run being: Barter in Blood / Harmonize / Syphon Mind. I hate rewarding my opponents when I can avoid it. While I think wheel of fortune has its place, I think that is in a mono R or a R/ deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Keep in mind that some of these questions I am asking for my own deck. My approach is a bit different so I would love some reasoning behind why you like or dont like some of the suggestions if possible. That way I can tell if it would work out for me
Sylvok Replica - what all synergy have you had with this guy? His p/t are really weak and other than being an artifact that you could potentially use with the wielder I don't see why you chose him. Personally I would take a different creature for this spot and or perhaps even Beast Within for the instant speed solve anything approach.
Bone Shredder I for one hate the limitation of nonblack creature on this. Again I wonder if this could instead be something like Malestrom Pulse that can take out an entire token army or any other problem you might be having. Do you run this as a chump creature for the option to rez him? I would think that generally you will be killing off the creature that you would need to block with this guy so having the chump after the kill seems unnecessary especially since he has an echo cost.
Squee, Goblin Nabob ok I can see he is a reusable blocker. But how much use do you get out of him? Most of the real threats I see fly, have trample, or annihilate. I guess I am wondering what sort of use you get off of him. I have tried things like Reassembling Skeleton and have just not been impressed by it. What sort of functionality do you feel he has in respect to the skeleton?
Big Game Hunter I run him too but I have been considering cutting him. I dont have any means of recurring or repeatedly using him though. I do like how he can hit black creatures though as it is a problem from time to time. I was sort of thinking he might end up going out for the new Chaos Warp. Do you use him because you can recur him or because the chump blocker is useful to you?
Avatar of Woe / Visara the Dreadful I have to ask how often you ever get to actually use these? I used to play them but people would totally freak out on me and wrath the board or spot remove them before I could ever use them. I notice you have more means of giving haste in here though so I could see that panning out for you. Would you run these if you didnt have a reliable way to give them haste? I have just found them to be too big of a target for me to run them myself.
Wheel of Fortune why do you run this card draw outlet that helps everyone when you have other green and or black options that I would consider better as they dont help your opponents. You have at least 3 big ones that I can see that you dont run being: Barter in Blood / Harmonize / Syphon Mind. I hate rewarding my opponents when I can avoid it. While I think wheel of fortune has its place, I think that is in a mono R or a R/ deck.
I'm not Steino, but I'm going to take a stab at these.
Sylvok Replica vs Beast Within - Replica is a creature. This is a Survival deck. If it wasn't Replica, it'd be Viridian Zealot, and Replica combos with Welder.
Bone Shredder vs Maelstrom Pulse - Again, Shredder is a creature. Pulse's role gets filled by other mass-board wipes or single-target stuff like Replica or Viashino Heretic.
Squee - I think you might be trolling. This deck would be a Green/Black deck if it wasn't for Squee. Squee is the only reason this deck is part red in the first place. Squee is infinite Survival fodder, and occasionally can chump or get himself Skullclamped.
Woe/Visara - Haste is very nice. Though for what it's worth, I was considering cutting one of these myself (Visara, as Woe often costs BB). I'll leave this one for Steino.
Wheel - Wheel can often leave your opponents with an undesirable hand. You have a lot of acceleration to dump your hand out so you get the better end of the deal. Also, if you have Leyline in play you can kill any recursion plans they had with their current hand.
Ok, I had actually forgotten that he ran Survival here. I run my deck as more of a control deck with big finishers and ramp. Without the survival in the deck would you still run the small guys?
As for the Wheel, I guess I have more of the big finsher cards so I would rather just me draw rather than giving my opponents fuel as well. I guess you answered most of my questions as to why card x or y in this build. Thanks
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Updated Pictures are at the bottom of this post. 5/7/12
Outdated pictures are on the third post.
1x Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Creatures (36)
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Crypt Rats
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Eternal Witness
1x Lifeblood Hydra
1x Tilling Treefolk
1x Wood Elves
1x Yavimaya Dryad
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Sylvok Replica
1x Agent of Erebos
1x Mindslicer
1x Anger
1x Goblin Settler
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spike Weaver
1x Shadowborn Demon
1x Acidic Slime
1x Genesis
1x Seedguide Ash
1x Chainer, Dementia Master
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Massacre Wurm
1x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1x Bane of Progress
1x Realm Seekers
1x Duplicant
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Overseer of the Damned
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Sneak Attack
1x Greater Good
Planeswalkers (1)
1x Sarkhan Vol
Artifacts (10, 7 non-creature)
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Skullclamp
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Birthing Pod
Sorceries (3)
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Reap and Sow
1x Damnation
Instants (7)
1x Crop Rotation
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Entomb
1x Constant Mists
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Corpse Dance
1x Momentous Fall
Lands (39)
6x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Mountain
1x Command Tower
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Badlands
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Blood Crypt
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Gruul Turf
1x Rakdos Carnarium
1x Flamekin Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Winding Canyons
1x Dust Bowl
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
1x Diamond Valley
1x Grim Backwoods
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Vesuva
I’ve continued to have fun with this deck since early 2005 (interactive games that are not blowouts). It’s designed for competitive interactive multiplayer. (To me competitive means players are using optimized card choices and have answers in their decks.) If you want to enjoy a deck that shines in the mid to late game, then I suggest you give this list a shot.
In a field of aggro – this deck performs well.
I don’t run Mindslaver in this deck. If I wanted to play that type of game I’d switch switch decks.
If you’re familiar with “The Rock” arch-type then you’ll understand how to pilot this deck. Rock is a strong arch-type in multiplayer due to its nature of creating artificial card advantage and being able to neutralize the opponents’ board positions. The deck is control/aggro. It has a Survival toolbox (I suggest not going for survival in the early game).
The deck is not build around the General – Karrthus. He compliments the build and is a finisher that won’t be a dead draw in the deck itself. The idea behind many of the cards in the deck is to create card advantage by being reusable and to be able to compensate for most situations.
You may notice the lack of Sol Ring. They’re great early game, but fairly lack luster in the late game. I’ve seen too many of these be blown up or have no impact to the game state. The idea is to simply survive until you can out resource your opponents.
Updated 8/31/13
General and basics
Fetches and bounce lands
Duals and multicolored lands
Utility lands
Survival package and tutors
Mana Ramp
Mass removal and Grave hate
Draw, Walkers and Fog
Targeted removal
Recursion elements and finshers
Updated 5/7/12
General and basics
Fetches and bounce lands
Duals and multicolored lands
Utility lands
Survival package and tutors
Mana Ramp
Mass removal
Draw and finishers
Grave hate, Planeswalkers and creature removal
Recursion elements and fog
I've made the following updates:
Bane of the Living -> Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Swamp -> Bojuka Bog
Multani, Maro-Sorcerer -> Primeval Titan
Yavimaya Elder -> Cultivate
Whispersilk Cloak -> Acidic Slime
Sol Ring -> Oracle of Mul Daya
Viridian Zealot -> Sylvok Replica
Predator, Flagship -> Phyrexian Reclamation
Rupture Spire -> Diamond Valley
Plague Boiler -> Steel Hellkite
Deranged Hermit -> Avenger of Zendikar
Swamp -> Gaea's Cradle
Guiltfeeder -> Nihil Spellbomb
Withered Wretch -> Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger -> Scavenging Ooze
Grand Coliseum -> Command Tower
Lightning Greaves -> Nim Deathmantle
Puppeteer Clique -> Rune-Scarred Demon
City of Brass -> Winding Canyons
Visara the Dreadful -> Massacre Wurm
Viashino Heretic -> Avalanche Riders
Goblin Welder -> Corpse Dance
Yavimaya Hollow -> Grim Backwoods
Darksteel Ingot -> Crop Rotation
Mind's Eye -> Momentous Fall
Phyrexian Arena -> Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Avalanche Riders -> Invader Parasite
Graveborn Muse -> Griselbrand
Sword of Fire and Ice -> Chainer, Dementia Master 5/15/12
Wasteland -> Phyrexian Tower 5/15/12
Mountain -> Vesuva 5/20/12
Nevinyrral's Disk -> Plague Boiler 6/1/12
Griselbrand -> Orcish Settlers 6/20/12
Invader Parasite -> Ranger's Path 7/7/12
Primeval Titan -> Kokusho, the Evening Star 9/20/12
Gaea's Cradle -> Dust Bowl 10/7/12
Memory Jar -> Entomb 12/18/12
Akroma's Memorial -> Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre 12/18/12
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary -> Goblin Settler 12/18/12
Ranger's Path -> Seedguide Ash 12/18/12
Beseech the Queen -> Rakdos Charm 12/18/12
Sword of Light and Shadow -> Reap and Sow 1/3/13
Cultivate -> Yavimaya Elder 1/15/13
Kodama's Reach -> Dawntreader Elk 1/15/13
Myojin of Night's Reach -> Mindslicer 1/15/13
Wheel of Fortune -> Greater Good 1/15/13
Strip Mine -> Thespian's Stage 1/26/13
Orchish Settlers -> Sylvan Primordial 1/26/13
Skyshroud Claim -> Wood Elves 2/21/13
Reiterate -> Sheoldred, Whispering One 2/24/13
Sorin Markov -> Crypt Rats 1/15/15
Life from the Loam -> Tilling Treefolk 1/15/15
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
The deck does not play artifact mana accel due to the nature of blowing board. Searching out lands has proven to be a viable strategy. The deck runs a Survival toolbox. Most of the creatures have dual uses other than just attacking with them. Most of the cards in the deck are permanents which have also proven successful. Permanents are easier to bring back (and reuse) than an instant or sorcery. The deck is based green with the secondary color being black followed by red. Green is key and having access double black by turn three depending on the cards in hand is also helpful.
Darksteel Ingot – This fixes color and does not fall victim to destroy effects.
Sakura-Tribe Elder – Creature that is recurable and puts basic lands into play.
Solemn Simulacrum - Creature that is recurable and puts basic lands into play, draws cards and has synergy with [card]Goblin Welder[card].
Oracle of Mul Daya – Essentially doubles as card draw. It has great synergy with Crucible of Worlds and helps to reduce the drawback of the bounce lands. The deck offers a lot of ways to shuffle.
Primeval Titan – Probably the best land tutor in print. Haste and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker push this card over the top.
Kodama's Reach, Cultivate and Skyshroud Claim – All three put the lands into play and are efficient for their mana costs.
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary – He is the last of the mana elves to continue to make the cut. The deck has ten forests.
Plague Boiler, Oblivion Stone, Nevinyrral's Disk and Pernicious Deed - Trying to mana ramp in the early game is a justified strategy because while your opponets may be building their boards you can drop one of these and be ahead of the curve when the dust settles. They can also be used to defer an opponent from attacking you. Experienced players will attack into you to make you use them.
Damnation – Sometimes you only want to hit the creatures.
Myojin of Night's Reach – This deck is aggro/control. The aggro portion makes it difficult to play. You usually have three opponents so at any given time one of them should have an answer in hand to deal with your board position. This guy helps to remove your opponent’s options. I found the most efficient time to remove the counter is during the next opponent’s draw step. This offers the most bang for the buck.
Predator, Flagship – Colorless reusable removal. Also doubles to provide evasion in combat or allows you to block fliers. It seems slow and clunky, but when it goes unanswered it creates card advantage.
Big Game Hunter – It chains with Survival, can be instant speed removal and can destroy black creatures. It is good with recursion.
Bone Shredder – This card has not been outdated yet. At three mana (with echo which is optional) it will hit a nonblack non artifact creature and it has flying. I still play it due to the low mana cost (only one black in the cost) and it has flying. It is good with recursion.
Duplicant – Can exile any non token creature. It also has synergy with Goblin Welder
Visara the Dreadful and Avatar of Woe – Reusable removal that becomes better with haste. Woe’s mana reduction clause can be very relevant.
Viashino Heretic – Reusable artifact removal. Has an efficient mana cost and activated ability and has a side bonus of dealing damage to opponent. This is a very good creature of what it does at the mana cost. It makes Reaper King players cringe.
Sylvok Replica – Recurable and synergies with Goblin Welder.
Acidic Slime – Mana cost and CIP effect are balanced. Its ability to hit lands is relevant. Deathtouch has a use in combat.
Woodfall Primus – Being able to destroy any non creature permanent and have persist is very strong. It synergies with Miren, the Moaning Well and Sneak Attack.
Withered Wretch – For one mana it can remove a card from the graveyard. It can easily be tutored for and is very efficient at removing specific targets.
Leyline of the Void – Opponents have to deal with this. It can ruin player’s strategies during a massive discard.
Bojuka Bog – Having a way to Tormod's Crypt a player and net a land on the deal is a solid play. It offers reusability with the bounce lands and can be tutored with Primeval Titan.
Puppeteer Clique – This falls under graveyard hate and traditional recursion. It has the ability to take something game breaking from an opponents graveyard and it has persist. It also synergies with Miren, the Moaning Well and Sneak Attack.
Genesis – Part of the Survival Package. It nets cards from the graveyard.
Volrath's Stronghold – Another source of recursion. It can also protect certain cards from being exiled from the graveyard.
Sword of Light and Shadow – Yet another way to get creatures back from the graveyard. Gaining three life can also be relevant. The protection can be handy too.
Eternal Witness – Regrowth via creature form.
Goblin Welder – This card offers a lot of potential. I will discuss more on this card further down.
Squee, Goblin Nabob – He only recurs himself but that is enough to generate card advantage. Part of the Survival package. Also works with Bazaar of Baghdad and Skullclamp.
Crucible of Worlds – Replay fetchlands. Throughout the game lands will get discarded or destroyed and this will let us replay them. It synergizes with Bazaar of Baghdad and Oracle of Mul Daya / Strip Mine effects.
Life from the Loam – Similar to Crucible of Worlds puts the lands into your hand. Dredge works well when you know what the top three cards are with Sensei's Divining Top. It also has great synergy with Bazaar of Baghdad.
Sensei's Divining Top – Being able to choose from the top three cards is strong. It also works well with shuffle and dredge effects. It compliments Oracle of Mul Daya nicely.
Skullclamp – Efficient card draw. There are eight creatures with one toughness in the deck. It works with Miren, the Moaning Well, Sneak Attack, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and just about every other way that puts a creature into the graveyard.
Sword of Fire and Ice – Grants protection and generates card advantage. The two extra damage does come in handy.
Memory Jar – Usually a one sided way to look at seven new cards. It creates a lot of potential. It is also reusable with Goblin Welder.
Mind's Eye – This should be a staple in just about every EDH deck.
Phyrexian Arena – It nets one extra card for the cost of one life. Card draw is very important to stay in the game.
Graveborn Muse – Here we have a Phyrexian Arena via creature form and it can carry equipment. There are two zombies in the deck. An end of turn Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker copying effect can generate 4 + cards.
Wheel of Fortune – This card may seem bad because it seven new cards into each of your opponents hands but when new an answer or just better cards it is worth it. You can make your opponents discard their new hands if there is an active Myojin of Night's Reach. In that rare situation I play this card because I need to make an opponent discard their hand.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth – This creature has four functions. A 12/12 beat stick, draws four cards, makes an opponent sacrifice four permanents and can protect the graveyard from being exiled.
Bazaar of Baghdad – Tap: Draw two cards then discard three. This card is not very good in most decks; however this deck attempts to reduce the drawback and at times turn it into an advantage.
Lightning Greaves – Haste and shroud are very good together.
Akroma's Memorial – It gives your creatures every ability Akroma has. It turns off Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and may stop some Goblin Welder effects otherwise this card can break open games.
Anger – Part of the survival package. This is the one Incarnation from the uncommon that does not focus purely on combat. Haste is strong when it allows you to attack or use the tap ability immediately.
Sarkhan Vol – His first two ability are all that is needed to keep him in the deck. Haste and +1/+1 can be devastating. His second ability is dependent on your opponents board position and it also synergies with Miren, the Moaning Well.
Sneak Attack – Powerful card. The ability puts the creature into play at instant speed. It works well with persist. It can power out Kozilek, Butcher of Truth in the early game to completely setback an opponent. It negates the idea of echo since the creature will be sacrificed.
Spike Weaver – It can fog with out having haste. It can fog multiple turns before leaving play and is recurable.
Constant Mists – Reusable fog is good. The buyback is reasonable with cards like Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam. Mana ramping can help from falling behind when paying the buyback.
Vampiric Tutor – Instant and puts the card of top of the library. The loss of life usually does not matter.
Demonic Tutor – Efficient!
Beseech the Queen – It can always find an answer, threat, or accel piece. At worst the card has the same mana cost as Diabolic Tutor.
Survival of the Fittest – The best creature tutor available. The deck does not need this card in play to win, but it runs that much better when it is out. Every creature has a purpose and can usually answer a specific situation.
Guiltfeeder – This card is just in here to beat down opponents. It triggers on not being blocked so Fog has not effect on it. Fear is also a nice evasion. It compliments well with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth.
Deranged Hermit – One card offers an instant army. Great for offense and defense. It compliments well with Skullclamp.
Sorin Markov – All three of his abilities are relevant. The second ability typically gets used first. He is an efficient way to put a player on a clock. His first ability offers an alternate with condition compared to combat.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker – Makes a copy of any non legendary non token creature you control. He is very good with a deck based on utility creatures. Having a second Primeval Titan is broken. He goes great with Miren, the Moaning Well and Skullclamp.
Reiterate – Fork is good. This card has buyback. We know what we have in the deck. What do your opponents have? This card is an underrated bomb.
Savage Lands, Reflecting Pool, City of Brass, Grand Coliseum and Rupture Spire – All of these can make any color needed. The deck is based green due to Survival but there are times when double or triple black or red are needed
Badlands, Bayou, Taiga, Blood Crypt, Stomping Ground and Overgrown Tomb – The six dual lands on color. They are efficient can be fetched based on their land type.
Misty Rainforest, Verdant Catacombs, Wooded Foothills, Windswept Heath and Bloodstained Mire. – I only play five fetches. Four of them can get a forest and the fifth is on color.
Golgari Rot Farm, Gruul Turf and Rakdos Carnarium – All three of these lands make two colors. Color fixing is very important for this deck due to the number of basics I run. Their bounce effect keeps land drops possible. It allows for more than one use of Bojuka Bog. The extra land can also be pitched to Bazaar of Baghdad.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth – Singlehandedly fixes one color. It also allows Maze of Ith, Bazaar of Baghdad and the fetch lands to tap for mana.
Miren, the Moaning Well – This card is reminiscent of the days when Kokusho, the Evening Star was legal. The deck is light on life gain and sac outlets.
Yavimaya Hollow – Regeneration is strong. Targeted regeneration is even better. This deck plays enough board clearers for this land to shine.
Strip Mine and Wasteland – There are a lot of utility lands and lands that generate a large amount of mana that need to be dealt with in EDH.
Maze of Ith – This is another single fog effect via land form.
11 Basic lands – Part of the mana accel is based on finding basic lands. The deck is based green followed by black then red. Urborg and Bojuka Bog make up for only two Swamps.
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund – He is not the center of the deck. He is another win condition that has the ability to take out an opponent in three turns. Haste and seven power is why he replaced Darigaaz, the Igniter as the General. Randomly his ability to steal dragons does hose certain players.
Goblin Welder – I played Type 1 when this card was on top of the meta. Combing his ability with Survival of the Fittest is just pure power. Having an active Welder then chaining a Duplicant for a Solemn Simulacrum via Survial, play Solemn and weld him into a Duplicant is pure card advantage. You can either weld Duplicant into a Solemn the turn later or sac Duplicant and pick up Solemn via a recursion piece and do it again. Sylvok Replica is weldable for instant speed disenchant. Welder combines well with Bazaar of Baghdad. Discard the artifact you want in play and weld it for something less powerful. Welding at the end of the last opponents turn for a Nevinyrral's Disk helps to get around the come into play tapped drawback. He has so much potential. He can be used to weld your opponents artifacts too. Can’t destroy your opponents Darksteel Forge? Weld it for something less powerful. Turn off opposing equipment during combat. Etc.
Bazaar of Baghdad – Bad in a lot of decks. Good in this one! It works because the other cards in the deck attempt to negate the drawback such as Squee, Goblin Nabob, Genesis, Life from the Loam, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Goblin Welder, Sensei's Divining Top, Big Game Hunter, Anger, 39 Land cards with Crucible of Worlds, etc. Sometimes in the early game I can use it to dig through my deck to make land drops. These colors do not have a lot of good reusable card draw that is efficient. Okay, that is not true but Yawgmoth's Bargain is banned and Necropotence exiles cards when they are discarded.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth – This creature has four functions. A 12/12 beat stick (this piece is easy to overlook compared to what else it does), draws four cards (this alone is worth half the mana cost to play it), makes an opponent sacrifice four permanents (strong and will hurt opponents the most) and can protect the graveyard from being exiled (people may not like it when you play Eldrazi but this card is too good to pass up. At a certain point in the game someone may try to crypt you.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
update
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
for plavor reasons you should be playing phyrexian plaguelord since its just not the rock without The Rock
also instead of those expensive and slow removal creatures (avatar and visara) you could use putrefy and something else like it since you have quite a bit of recursion
you should look at kagemaro, first to suffer he fits what you want to do and hits rather had if your card advantage engines have left you with a hand
if youre gonna keep red then look at decimate and hull breach and if you do tend to win with swinging with a swarm of squirrels or something try hit/run it may not be very good removal with the number of people that play mana rocks but the run portion is a good chunk of damage
The red cards hold their slots firmly. Squee and Anger are part of an engine and Goblin Welder creates possibilities. He is one of the few ways to get Darksteel Forge off the table. Long story short the red cards in the deck are very good at what they do.
I used to play with Dwarven Miner, Orcish Settlers and similar cards; however that led to games that were just not fun for anyone. I’ve played with Avalanche Riders and Flametongue Kavu. The Riders got the cut when Recurring Nightmare was banned and Flametongue felt like it lost some power over the years.
I used to play with Decimate, Hull Breach, Putrefy, Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse and Regrowth. These cards are great for 1 vs 1 since they hit the tempo just right. (Excluding Decimate since it requires four targets to cast it.) Removal is key. I’ve taken out some single target spells for board clears which is why I play with Plague Boiler. They may be a bit on the slow end but in Multiplayer offer more card advantage.
If done right Avatar of Woe only costs BB to cast and there are plenty of ways to give them haste.
I’ve thought about Kagemaro, First to Suffer but I’ve never actually given it a shot.
Basically I give up some tempo for the long game. When a lot of the answers in the deck are reusable this deck becomes hard to stop.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
I really like the new addition of Sylvok Replica for Viridian Zealot; he's more, but like you mentioned the synergy with him and Welder is really good.
In terms of Kagemaro, I'd say Kozilek definitely wins for that slot.
(But if I had the choice I'd take Bane over him as well, since the morph sometimes gives a sense of ambiguity making him less targetable, he comes out quicker, he can sometimes flip wiping out token armies and stay alive, and being a mana ramping deck your mana is probably a better source of -X/-X vs hand size, 'cause what if you have 0-3 cards late game, that won't save you against that green Stompy)
I still don't see Recruiter, I'll check back later to see when he gets added
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
GW[Legacy] BEARS (#1 Threat in America)GW
UR[Legacy] Arcane MeleeUR
Due to Phyrexian Reclamation’s life cost and it’s effect being useless if there are no creatures in my graveyard I am going to test Diamond Valley. I am going to test it in the place of Rupture Spire. I am going to lose the ability to make mana unless I have an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play, but I feel Diamond Valley will be less mana intensive then Miren, the Moaning Well and it would be nice to have both in the same deck since some players like to destroy my Miren, among other things.
@JARY
Sylvok Replica is an upgrade from Viridian Zealot and it has been performing very well.
As for Imperial Recruiter . . . well some of us just don’t have the money to spend on cards like that . . . (If it gets reprinted then I might think about running it.)
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
I am currently testing Steel Hellkite in place of Plague Boiler.
I would like to try Necrotic Ooze, but I’m not sure what to take out for it. Has anyone had success with this card? Any suggestions?
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
I believe Steel Hellkite makes a good replacement for Plague Boiler since it only hits my opponents. It is nice to have some control over the chaos as opposed to just blowing up the entire board. They can both be pretty mana intensive, but the Hellkite is more offensive.
I finally got around to playing with Avenger of Zendikar and this card is insane. I wasn’t sure how well it would do compared to Deranged Hermit, but in one turn I was able to make 10 plant tokens, then play a fetch land, crack it, attack with all tokens, Avenger and a Primeval Titan allowing for two more triggers of landfall for a total of 40 points of damage from just the tokens alone.
Avenger of Zendikar is going to replace Deranged Hermit. Avenger does not have echo, and the potential it offers is less limited then the Hermit.
With the addition of the Avenger I’ve also decided to add Gaea's Cradle to the deck. I figure I finally have enough creatures in the deck to make this land consistent.
I enjoy the fact that I can sit across from an opponent and they are stumped at figuring out which of my lands is the strongest. The correct answer is all of them.
Plague Boiler out, Steel Hellkite in
Deranged Hermit out, Avenger of Zendikar in
Swamp out, Gaea's Cradle in
I am still having difficulty with Necrotic Ooze. I am not sure what it can replace in the deck or even if it should go in the deck for that matter. Thoughts, suggestions, and experiences with the card are welcome.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Scion vs Karthus
So basically with the help of Oracle and Skyshroud Claim he was able to get Avenger of Zendikar out by turn 5-6'ish with some friendly 10 tokens. Before then there wasn't much on the board but his Pupeteer Clique (persist) since I reset the board with ***.
Survival was in play, along with Cradle (which was recovered previous turn with Witness) and on one turn was able to float 12 mana with cradle... get "Survival package" in yard, cast Kozilek, then swing with Titan (why not?) to landfall trigger the lil' critters, gg. Well played, ya jerk lol
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
GW[Legacy] BEARS (#1 Threat in America)GW
UR[Legacy] Arcane MeleeUR
Obviously our lists are very different, mine being more aggresive while you are a rock deck! But I still think there's some cards I use that are worth consideration.
Mosswort Bridge / Spinerock Knoll - With both Primeval Titan and all 3 Bouncelands in your deck at least one of these is worth looking at. These lands give free CA and even count as casting the spell for Kozilek. Of course your meta may have more single target land destruction then mine, but better these get hit then your bouncelands sometimes.
Terastodon - Sometimes you need to kill more then 1 non-creature permenant, this is when I like Terastodon in addition to Woodfall Primus. Having another option like this for survival is great, but may be a little high on the mana cost for your deck.
Cabal Conditioning - Another Myojin of Night's Reach affect, worth consideration if you find youself wanting another one of those. Yes it requires you to have something in play, and it's not a creature. But the power level of the card is still very high.
Greater Good - Turns removal into CA and allows you to run through your deck quickly while putting relevant cards in your graveyard. The small size of your creatures makes this worse, but I think it's still worth looking into.
Krosan Tusker - Card draw that is Survivalable, great with Genesis, and just a good 3 mana instant effect.
Green Sun's Zenith - Rofellos, Oracle, Acidic Slime, Primeval Titan, Avenger, Woodfall Primus. You have good targets for this at almost every mana cost.
Here's my list if you want to give the rest of it a look:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=313189
Enjoy!
What the heck would you cut though... Reitterate? Rakdos Land?
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
GW[Legacy] BEARS (#1 Threat in America)GW
UR[Legacy] Arcane MeleeUR
I’ve taken out Guiltfeeder and put in Nihil Spellbomb. I wanted a less mana intensive card that could Tormod's Crypt a player. As a bonus this card replaces itself with a card draw. Taking more of an anti graveyard approach renders Guiltfeeder to be less efficient. It also has some nice synergy with Goblin Welder.
@ kci2 – Thanks for the suggestions. I’ve looked at several of these and played with some of them before. Ultimately, from the suggestions I feel Green Sun's Zenith has the most potential to be added to this deck. This “just” begs the question of what would get cut.
@ Jary – Thanks for the games. I like your subtlety, but we both know I’m not going to cut Reiterate. That card is too amazing!
“You’re going to Genesis Wave for 33? I think I’ll do the same.” “Fireball for 47? Mine will resolve first.” “Counterspell? Counter your counter.” Then there is my favorite: “Decree of Pain? Looks like I’ll drawing those cards instead.”
After reading the spoiler I found at least one card that will make its way into this deck. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. I am having a lot of difficulties finding what card to remove to make room for it. Lucky there is some time to decide, but that doesn’t make it any easier.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
This round was a tough choice. Lately Withered Wretch has been a little lack luster. I’ve been having greater success with Leyline of the Void, Nihil Spellbomb and Bojuka Bog. I think Vorniclex will have a greater impact on games then Withered Wretch. We’ll see . . .
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
However my general will be Andu Oakenshiled. It seems that He could have more synergy with the deck.
I also going to add as many permanent as i can and run Warp World and Genesis Wave (maybe) and with Anger and som other "Haste enablers" i could kill people after resolving those big spells.
Im still going to relay on the toolbox effect that this deck provides, I will roll like a Rock, but without having those last blow knockers.
About you list, I think you need to justify Gobling Welder a little bit more. He is amazing at what He does and the equipments and Crucible of World are not enough for him to exploit his potential. I dont mention the creatures He can get since Survival of the Fittest and black tutors are superior at that.
Just for some background. I played with Goblin Welder when he was at the top of Vintage. 2004-6ish? Decks like Control Slaver and UbaStax ran him.
One thing to keep in mind is the potential he offers.
Common plays I’ll make with him involve a Survival chain putting Duplicant into the graveyard then welding a Solemn for the Duplicant. Return the Solemn with a recursion piece. Use a Sac outlet for Duplicant and repeat. – This can be modified depending on the game state.
Discard expensive spells like Akroma’s Memorial via Bazaar of Baghdad and weld it into play.
Instant speed (with Survial) weld in a Sylvok Replica and disenchant something.
At the end of my last opponents turn weld in a Nevinyarral’s Disk so that it will untap at the beginning of my turn.
Dig for answers with multiple Memory Jars.
Essentially welder offers many different plays depending on the game state. He is reusable and has a very efficient mana cost. Be creative.
Don’t forget that welder can be used on your opponents. Turn something good of theirs into something far worse in comparison.
Funny note: If you play with It that Betrays and you weld your opponents artifacts you get the one that was in play.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
I think it is hard to say which commander is best but I have played both Kresh and Karrthus and I appreciate the ability to come out of nowhere and beat some face with Karrthus.
As a side note: have you ever considered running Seize the Day in here? I have used it for a ton of surprise damage. It works great as if someone has an answer for your big threat they will probably use it the first time you attack. If it goes nicely just start taking extra combat phases. It is great with Eldrazi attacks as well as I have used it with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth in the past to really just pound someone to death in one turn.
Another decent card I have made use of is Blades of Velis Vel. This card is heavily dependant on if you generally cast your commander every time he is ready or if you save him for a bit later in the game. I tend to try not to bring him out until late in the game so I can pay the extra 2 here. It is very very good in an agro heavy meta as you can steal 2 other creatures permenantly, give them haste, and give them +2/+0 until end of turn.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
The card choices and General reflect my play style and play group. I tend to play control and like to have answers and outs to my opponent’s board positions. Thus far Karrthus has proven itself as the General of the deck. It used to be (Darigaaz, the Igniter.)
Karrthus has haste which means it can attack the turn I play it. It has seven power which turns it into a three hit win condition. It has flying which offers evasion to hit my opponents and if needed will save me as a blocker. The ability to steal all dragons is not to relevant, but still rather useful if the opportunity is available. If nothing else it will deter other players from playing their dragons.
Adun Oakenshield is cool, but does not put pressure on and is hurt by graveyard hate.
Kresh the Bloodbraided seems good, but he needs to be invested in to get him bigger and he doesn’t have haste or evasion.
I have thought about it, but the main intent of the card choices are to have answers and have the least number of dead cards as possible. I enjoy playing games of attrition. Extra combat phases feels like a win more type of card. If I am losing and there are opponents that have answers to my attack such as a Maze of Ith I will not being doing much with an extra combat.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Time to bring back a 5-year old sig banner. DEDICATION!
Currently Playing:
=Legacy=
RUUG Delver
=Modern=
BRRG LOAM
=EDH=
BGGR Karrthus
RRRX Norin
UUWW Bruna
BBBB Skithiryx
I’ve thought about Sarkhan the Mad. I have no intentions in cutting Sarkhan Vol since he is just too good at what he does. I think I’ve used his third ability once, maybe. His first two abilities are why he keeps his spot in the deck.
Primeval Titan, for example, is fairly popular in my play group. This makes Sarkhan Vol’s second ability efficient to deal with the titan. I typically take control of the opposing titan then use it to tutor up a bounce land and Diamond Valley using the trigger from the bounce land to return the Valley to my hand and play it that turn to sacrifice their titan. If I already have a Valley in play then I might tutor up a Bojuka Bog and sacrifice the titan in response to the Bog’s trigger.
Essentially, the haste and +1/+1 is very good. The threaten ability is removal when I have a sac outlet.
I’m not sure what I’d replace Sarkhan the Mad with. Phyrexian Arena? Then again, I’m not a fan of his third ability either or the fact he doesn’t have any plus abilities.
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir
UBWZur the Enchanter
WUBRGChild of Alara
WUBRGSliver Queen
Sylvok Replica - what all synergy have you had with this guy? His p/t are really weak and other than being an artifact that you could potentially use with the wielder I don't see why you chose him. Personally I would take a different creature for this spot and or perhaps even Beast Within for the instant speed solve anything approach.
Bone Shredder I for one hate the limitation of nonblack creature on this. Again I wonder if this could instead be something like Malestrom Pulse that can take out an entire token army or any other problem you might be having. Do you run this as a chump creature for the option to rez him? I would think that generally you will be killing off the creature that you would need to block with this guy so having the chump after the kill seems unnecessary especially since he has an echo cost.
Squee, Goblin Nabob ok I can see he is a reusable blocker. But how much use do you get out of him? Most of the real threats I see fly, have trample, or annihilate. I guess I am wondering what sort of use you get off of him. I have tried things like Reassembling Skeleton and have just not been impressed by it. What sort of functionality do you feel he has in respect to the skeleton?
Big Game Hunter I run him too but I have been considering cutting him. I dont have any means of recurring or repeatedly using him though. I do like how he can hit black creatures though as it is a problem from time to time. I was sort of thinking he might end up going out for the new Chaos Warp. Do you use him because you can recur him or because the chump blocker is useful to you?
Avatar of Woe / Visara the Dreadful I have to ask how often you ever get to actually use these? I used to play them but people would totally freak out on me and wrath the board or spot remove them before I could ever use them. I notice you have more means of giving haste in here though so I could see that panning out for you. Would you run these if you didnt have a reliable way to give them haste? I have just found them to be too big of a target for me to run them myself.
Wheel of Fortune why do you run this card draw outlet that helps everyone when you have other green and or black options that I would consider better as they dont help your opponents. You have at least 3 big ones that I can see that you dont run being: Barter in Blood / Harmonize / Syphon Mind. I hate rewarding my opponents when I can avoid it. While I think wheel of fortune has its place, I think that is in a mono R or a R/ deck.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I'm not Steino, but I'm going to take a stab at these.
Sylvok Replica vs Beast Within - Replica is a creature. This is a Survival deck. If it wasn't Replica, it'd be Viridian Zealot, and Replica combos with Welder.
Bone Shredder vs Maelstrom Pulse - Again, Shredder is a creature. Pulse's role gets filled by other mass-board wipes or single-target stuff like Replica or Viashino Heretic.
Squee - I think you might be trolling. This deck would be a Green/Black deck if it wasn't for Squee. Squee is the only reason this deck is part red in the first place. Squee is infinite Survival fodder, and occasionally can chump or get himself Skullclamped.
Woe/Visara - Haste is very nice. Though for what it's worth, I was considering cutting one of these myself (Visara, as Woe often costs BB). I'll leave this one for Steino.
Wheel - Wheel can often leave your opponents with an undesirable hand. You have a lot of acceleration to dump your hand out so you get the better end of the deal. Also, if you have Leyline in play you can kill any recursion plans they had with their current hand.
Time to bring back a 5-year old sig banner. DEDICATION!
Currently Playing:
=Legacy=
RUUG Delver
=Modern=
BRRG LOAM
=EDH=
BGGR Karrthus
RRRX Norin
UUWW Bruna
BBBB Skithiryx
As for the Wheel, I guess I have more of the big finsher cards so I would rather just me draw rather than giving my opponents fuel as well. I guess you answered most of my questions as to why card x or y in this build. Thanks
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies