It was, at least on my end. Constantly running up the aggro, and constantly being cut back, but keeping everyone else on the defensive allowed me to just power through all the answers.
Mass Land D as an answer to mana ramp as a philosophy has just been a sore spot for me for ages, since I believe that it is inaccurate. Hopefully this game puts a point in my favor with the player who holds that philosophy.
Aerial Predation - This deck loves its kill flying spells, but I don't run plummet, and that would enter before this.
Archweaver - A spider that actually does damage! Sadly, a 5/5 is a bit small to stop the standard set of EDH flyers.
Chorus of Might - Usually Nemata handles the killy thing quite well, but this could be an option for commander damage, or as a back-up if bad things happen to Nemata.
Death's Presence - When you start sacrificing saprolings for increasing benefits, some funny things might happen with this out. Usually at that point you've won anyways, but it's still worth pointing it out. Also, free +1/+1 counters for eating saprolings for cards or lands could be nice as well.
Druid's Deliverance - Fog + Saproling? I don't think it will make the cut here, sadly.
Mana Bloom - This card intrigues me. Stockpile mana to curve out your next few turns? Likely the one mana won't make a huge difference, but I like the concept here.
Urban Burgeoning - With the doublers in the deck, this could amount to an extra saproling per turn, or more if you actually get to land it on the cradle. Interesting.
Worldspine Wurm - If only because we can actually play it. A decent end game plan-b beater. I like my Dauntless Dourbark, but this guy has some distinct advantages in his favor.
Alpha Authority - Another green protective instant. If needed, can be added to the available options as selectable choices for protecting Nemata. -misread this as an instant. Immensely less cool.
Ivy Lane Denizen - Well, we're getting lots of creatures. Potential alternate win option, especially if tokens are shut down.
Sylvan Primordial - Everyone say hi to the elephant in the room. Lately I've been running Woodfall Primus instead of Terastodon. I feel that both have been outclassed. This answers threats, and ramps us immensely. While not as easily "abused" in this deck, its power cannot be denied.
Tower Defense - Aside from an awesome name, another green protective instant.
Artifacts and Land
Illusionist's Bracers - Second elephant in the room, this not only provides double tokens in a way that Rings of Brighthearth could never dream of, it also doubles our pump ability, making Nemata into 2G: Your creatures get +4/+4 until end of turn. Which is pretty outrageously stupid.
Thespian's Stage - I don't run Vesuva, because it's most likely to copy a forest. If need be, this can be a forest, but can still turn into a Deserted temple later. Or an opposing cabal coffers if someone is silly enough to drop cofferborg. Nemata is likely one of the later decks to obtain this card, but it may be considered.
A few pre-gatecrash changes:
- Chain of Acid - All two times I've been mindslavered, I've had this in hand. Always hilarious, not a position to want to be in. Overall, I haven't found myself using it much, as I stand to lose a doubler on the repercussion.
+ Duplicant - Wanted more creature removal.
- Nature's Will - Nature's was a pre-banning replacement for primetime, and I never got around to adding something new. The Will is brutally strong, as it will trigger per opponent, but I want to try out some other toys.
+ Genesis - Ever since I added a stronger suite of creature ramp/removal, I've been wanting some more recursion.
- Woodfall Primus
+ Terastodon - I pulled out terras to see how I liked persist... I think terastodon simply adds much more to the deck. Neither can really be abused.
- Battlefield Scrounger - Scrounger was a way to recycle used cards, and doubled as a small threat. I've never really needed the recycling, and he's a bit wussy as a threat.
+ Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - I pulled him ages ago, when I started pulling Overruns. Now that I have more of a creature ramp suite, Kamahl boosts them, and can win games alone if Nemata is out of action somehow.
-Desert Twister
+Spine of Ish Sah - I don't really have a way to abuse Spine, so I figure 1 more mana is acceptable to hit pro-green objects, and who knows, maybe it will come back.
This looks quite fun to play. Only perused a few moments, but just a few thoughts.
With nasty mana, Kamahl, fist of Krosa is an absolute beast. I've won games before just dropping him on the field, animating lands and then buffing them to lethal. His wrath protection is also a bonus if that kind of LD isn't too frowned upon.
I really do like Genesis, however Nature's Will just looks so mean for this deck. I'd probably find a way to slot both in the deck if I had the chance.
If you are OK with 7 mana and want something to hit pro green, my buddy Karn Liberated is potentially better since you have no built in way to bounce Spine of Ish Sah. With your hoard of tokens you should be able to protect him to get a few actions. Worst case, Karn exiles versus destroys for the same mana cost which is relevant against a few irritating permanents.
I'm not sure I like Illusionist bracers without 10 or maybe 15 creatures that can abuse it, but it does get crazy with Nemata, almost like a 5 mana doubler that is less versatile. Only time will tell.
Ivy Lane Denizen reminds me of Juniper Order Ranger in a good way. I could see him enabling voltron-esque kills with Nemata here and there as the situation demanded. I would think Nemata would still get the counters even if Elesh Norn were on an opponent's field.
This looks quite fun to play. Only perused a few moments, but just a few thoughts.
With nasty mana, Kamahl, fist of Krosa is an absolute beast. I've won games before just dropping him on the field, animating lands and then buffing them to lethal. His wrath protection is also a bonus if that kind of LD isn't too frowned upon.
Indeed, this was my thoughts in adding him in again. I've been leaning a bit too focused on Nemata, and Khamal gives me several backup options, while still profitably slotting into the deck.
I really do like Genesis, however Nature's Will just looks so mean for this deck. I'd probably find a way to slot both in the deck if I had the chance.
Nature's Will is absolutely disgusting. On one end it is a like a sword of feast and famine... for all your creatures. On a second note, it will trigger per opponent that is hit, so you can get multiple untaps out of it.
It draws out an aggressive playstyle though,
If you are OK with 7 mana and want something to hit pro green, my buddy Karn Liberated is potentially better since you have no built in way to bounce Spine of Ish Sah. With your hoard of tokens you should be able to protect him to get a few actions. Worst case, Karn exiles versus destroys for the same mana cost which is relevant against a few irritating permanents.
Typically, if I have excess tokens, protecting Karn won't be the issue, since the game should be ending very, very soon. It takes surprisingly few tokens to kill with Nemata.
That said, exiling is a huge bonus, allowing some indestructible removal, which in retrospect is slightly lacking.
Unfortunately, I only have one Karn available to me, and I have recently been issued a challenge to use less proxies cross-decks (which I feel is silly, but I'll abide for now).
I agree that in whole, Karn will likely slot in better. I'll need to keep my eyes open for an extra, or get to work with some crayons for when the challenge ends. =P
I'm not sure I like Illusionist bracers without 10 or maybe 15 creatures that can abuse it, but it does get crazy with Nemata, almost like a 5 mana doubler that is less versatile. Only time will tell.
The deck is heavily focused around Nemata right now; he's a one-stop army in a can, and the bracers make him go insane. Slowly adding a few other options for the bracers seems like a good idea, but my Meta doesn't play into Spins or Hinders, so I'm pretty safe on it.
Ivy Lane Denizen reminds me of Juniper Order Ranger in a good way. I could see him enabling voltron-esque kills with Nemata here and there as the situation demanded. I would think Nemata would still get the counters even if Elesh Norn were on an opponent's field.
Nemata kills, pumping up those little land fetchers, Ivy Lane just seems like a lot of fun. Elesh is exactly what I was thinking of when I saw him. You are right that the creatures still enter the battlefield, then immediately die, but Ivy lane's ability will still trigger.
Of all the "denizen" cycle, I like him the best, and there are a lot of decks that will like him.
Hey, I just found out about this general while searching for some neat mono green legends, and this definitely fits the bill. I've always had a soft spot for saprolings, and I love the idea of explosively building a swarm. I'm writing down a whole lot of ramp and generally a lot of cards that play nice with this kind of deck, and I'll get a coherent list down soon, I hope!
Trophy Hunter->Brittle Effigy.
I hate creatures with flying, but I've never actually used the hunter to any sort of good effect. The effigy gives me a shot at permanent removal, which seems cool.
Skullmulcher->Duplicant.
Another move towards colorless, permanent removal. I dislike cutting draw, but thypically by the time I have enough creatures to use the mulcher, I'm just killing people anyways. Since I've never used him, I'm going to pull him and see what's what.
Duplicant is actually already in the list, makes it a bit hard to legally add him.
Gurzigost->Sylvan Primordial
My biggest issue here is what category to I put the primordial in? Is he removal? Ramp? Air Defense? Suffice to say he's awesome. Gurzi is a pet card of mine, and in theory his face smasher ability would be useful, but I haven't ever wanted to gut my graveyard anymore, ever since I added a fair bit more recovery to the deck from ages ago. I'm a bit sad to pull him before Ivy lane Denizen comes in, as they're likely best buds.
Doubling Cube -> Illusionists Bracers
One doubler for another, same cost, same 'activation' cost, but the bracers do not require to use a large amount of mana at one time. The cube though, did allow me to spend mana on other than saprolings, and also interacted hilariously with Mana Reflections.
Stoneseeder Heirophant -> Ivy Lane Denizen.
Stoneseeder is well known in my playgroup to rip all my land out with glaciers, or be insane with cradle, or even a few doubling effects and ramp spells. She ends up bringing more fire to bear on me than benefit, so it seems like a good time to try the denizen in her place.
Can't help but notice, the whole deck, without Nemata is sitting at 101, with 13 artifacts instead of the listed 11. Something that might want to get fixed. Also, you're running Extraplanar Lens, where you could be running Vernal Bloom. You're not running snow-covered forests making Lens less utility (usually). It clocks in at one mana more, but it doesn't exile a land and it's also an enchantment. In my experience there is less enchantment removal in most EDH decks than there is artifact removal, so it can dodge you some common hate.
Can't help but notice, the whole deck, without Nemata is sitting at 101, with 13 artifacts instead of the listed 11. Something that might want to get fixed. Also, you're running Extraplanar Lens, where you could be running Vernal Bloom. You're not running snow-covered forests making Lens less utility (usually). It clocks in at one mana more, but it doesn't exile a land and it's also an enchantment. In my experience there is less enchantment removal in most EDH decks than there is artifact removal, so it can dodge you some common hate.
Thanks for the catch on the deck counts, I noticed I have a few other sections off as well, silly me. I'll need to compare to my actual deck to find where the discrepancies actually are.
Vernal Bloom is indeed actually in the deck. This deck does indeed simply want to double mana that much.
While I could use snow covered lands with the lens, it doesn't actually hurt me any not to, especially considering that bloom and gauntlet help opponents as much, if not more. Overall, I'm not really concerned about helping out opponents, plus any opponent I should be afraid of helping, has probably pimped their deck to snowcovered lands anyways. =P
Why no Jade Mage? It's a good one if your Nemata is tucked.
It is true that tucking Nemata is a weakness of the Deck. Even so, there are a few reasons:
1) Jade mage is quite weak, it lacks half of Nemata's abilities, and dies very very easily. In this regard, even Ant Queen would be a better option by my book.
2) With a few useful creatures in the deck, I would almost prefer running an extra tutor rather than a token producer who will be a dead card with Nemata out.
3) it does nothing against the other deck weakness: Elesh Norn and similar effects.
Can't help but notice, the whole deck, without Nemata is sitting at 101, with 13 artifacts instead of the listed 11. Something that might want to get fixed. Also, you're running Extraplanar Lens, where you could be running Vernal Bloom. You're not running snow-covered forests making Lens less utility (usually). It clocks in at one mana more, but it doesn't exile a land and it's also an enchantment. In my experience there is less enchantment removal in most EDH decks than there is artifact removal, so it can dodge you some common hate.
That is -4, +2, for a net -2. The decklist in the OP was in actuality sitting at 102 cards, as there were also 10 enchantments listed, yet the header said 9. 102-2 is the correct 100, and I now need to update my decklist.
Also, 1 forest is actually a Buried Ruin, probably for a year now. If not more.
Before I do, some of these missing cards are a bit odd to have cut at first glance, some are not.
Removals: (ages old, but hey)
Centaur Rootcaster was not an odd cut. He's simply too slow and ineffective in this deck.
Skullmulcheris a bit of an odd choice to cut. Green loves its card draw, and this guy also gets big when doing it. The problem was that at the time, if I cast him I was devouring creatures, which were likely saprolings, which meant I was already doing what I needed to do to win the game. He may fit better now, since I believe he was cut before I rebalance to more land getting creatures. He'll have to remain in my mind if I need more card draw.
Carpet of Flowers was simply just never what I wanted. Sometimes it game me a decent 2-3 mana which helped get doublers up... but at that point I wouldn't have enough forests out to really help much. It simply seemed to be too much of a gamble to get going, especially considering a number of players are heavy on non-basics.
Beastmaster Ascension Simply never did enough to warrant a card slot. Seriously, just sacrificing the blocked saprolings gives a better card boost, and it comes free of card obligation.
Adds!
Way back when, I cut Seedborne muse, for being too strong. 'Nuff said. I put it back in, and if you don't kill her, I win.
Shinen of Life's Roar is a card that I wanted to test in a deck, any deck, and this deck had an open slot in it. I think it'll be hilarious fun, obviously one of the first cards to cut for whatever else, but sometimes, you gotta laugh.
Into the Wilds looks interesting as 'free' ramp, but it needs to hit at least 2 lands to justify its cost, and at 40% land, that's 4-5ish turns, which is a bit too long for my tastes in this deck.
Savage Summoning is a cute trick to drop Nemata out EoT to get an untap with him. Due to the lack of haste in the deck, I don't like terribly much here, since I'll still need a round around the table, but it wouldn't be farfetched to drop Nemata EoT, untap and make saprolings, and even if they take out Nemata then, if it's not a wrath you can simply drop him next turn for the sac/pump effect and still attack with army. I also am a fan of being prepared, and though my meta is light on counterspells and hinders... be prepared.
Sporemound is pretty cool. I don't like the 5 cost, but getting extra tokens just for dropping lands is pretty cool. I don't know if it'll be enough, but he may cycle in for some fun testing. My impressions is that he'll be too little, and a bit too slow, but I could be pleasantly surprised.
Windsotrm is a reprint, but I didn't know about the original. A potential add to Whirlwind and Silklash Spider for those effects, especially since it is instant speed. I like instants.
Ring of Three Wishes, I didn't run planar portal, but this could be a decent draw-what-I-Need-to-combo-off piece.
Staff of the Wild Magus, honestly, I'm not terribly impressed even with essence warden, and if it hadn't saved my in a few key situations, even the warden would be gone. And the warden will net a lot more life than this thing.
Strionic Resonator - not the deck for it, this deck is about activated abilities.
So, not too many new green cards fit this style of play. None of the heroic stuff, or bestow stuff really help us out, and there isn't a lot of army support.
There are a few new removal spells, and Fade into Antiquity is interesting for the exile support, even at sorcery speed, but I'm likely to hold off adding it until a few gods start showing up in my meta. Even then, Deglamer will obviously be added first.
Ordeal of Nylea is interesting as it's a form of +2 land ramp for cheap, but does take a while to get up to speed, has a lot of risk, and requires early presence first... Then time when the board is most ripe with removal. I don't think this is the deck for it.
Polukranos, World Eater is interesting as a removal option, as well as a potential alternate win-con with the amount of mana we can generate. I think he might be better suited in other green decks, like Azusa, Omnath, and Khamal, but he certainly still has potential here.
Shredding Winds is interesting flying hate, and 7 is often enough a big enough number, but I fail to see any reason to run it with other, better, options which simply straight up make flyer(s) dead.
Bow of Nylea is interesting in the versatility. It allows us to throw saprolings wherever, but sadly, deathtouch on attacks alone is not like too useful, and the modes don't do nearly enough here. A much different story I feel in Kamahl, where it can do massive damage when paired with trample.
ARTIFACTS!
Burnished Hart gets a mention because it should get a mention in every EDH deck. A +2 land ramp is amazing in any form, and while it's more expensive than Explosive Vegetation, it's spread over two turns, more easily returned for repeated use, can act as a chump block before sac, is an artifact so can block Sword of Feast and Famine, can be Skullclamped, triggers Fecundity, etc, etc. You get the point. Not 100% sold on this deck (and I have many other decks that call for it first), but a potential addition to the lineup of ramp creatures.
Witches' Eye - If any deck can make profitable use of this... it's probably a token deck. Strong enough? Doubt it. I'd rather use the mana for more saprolings.
LANDS!
Or land, rather, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. While big mana is certainly the name of the game, I don't think this is the path we want here. Sadly tokens do not add to devotion, and often enough we don't have much more than Nemata, a few doublers (which may or may not be artifacts), and maybe a left-over mana ramp creature. It's something I'll need to pay far more attention to in future games in case I need to revise my opinion, but at present I think that the benefit will be minor, at best.
In regards to Earthcraft, does it go infinite with Nemata by itself? I can't seem to see how without some either token or mana-doublers but the fact that it is being excluded makes me feel like I am missing some possible interaction(s).
EDIT: Found my answer regarding Earthcraft in the "Infinitude" section.
In regards to Earthcraft, does it go infinite with Nemata by itself? I can't seem to see how without some either token or mana-doublers but the fact that it is being excluded makes me feel like I am missing some possible interaction(s).
EDIT: Found my answer regarding Earthcraft in the "Infinitude" section.
It doesn't go it alone, but there was a period where I was very conscious of infinite mana or of infinite combos in general. It's a very good card in any kind of token-green deck, or even just a normal green deck if you're looking for simply a good card. If your meta doesn't frown on infinites, you should definitely run it.
If you're looking between Nemata and Khamal, check out Galspanic's Kamahl primer as well if you want to balance the other side of the opinion.
If you're looking between Nemata and Khamal, check out Galspanic's Kamahl primer as well if you want to balance the other side of the opinion.
Done and done. Going with Nemata - having Kamahl in the 99 serving as an alt-win condition was good enough for me at this point. Using it as an excuse to pickup some staple green cards as I have largely ignored the color up until this point.
Has been pretty fun in testing, but not sure how it will stand up in my spot-removal heavy playgroup. However, I am trying to diverge from making decks filled with answers (black, white, blue) to decks that simply play/ramp through said answers.
Once again, thanks for the primer. Hope you continue to update it.
Done and done. Going with Nemata - having Kamahl in the 99 serving as an alt-win condition was good enough for me at this point. Using it as an excuse to pickup some staple green cards as I have largely ignored the color up until this point.
Has been pretty fun in testing, but not sure how it will stand up in my spot-removal heavy playgroup. However, I am trying to diverge from making decks filled with answers (black, white, blue) to decks that simply play/ramp through said answers.
Once again, thanks for the primer. Hope you continue to update it.
One thing that can be quite nice in green is Birthing Pod. I haven't run it in my own Nemata deck, though I've run it in others, and it can be a veritable power-house. Even simply progressing up the chain of land rampers can be very useful.
I hope the new set will bring us some upgrades. Its long overdue since I could put something new in this deck.
Almost halfway through the set finally, and the best we've got is a second Deglamer.
Though, it's not too surprising since this isn't a token heavy set, nor an artifact heavy set.
===
I did however forget to go over the Comm 13 cards:
Bane of Progress has the capability to do a lot of damage to us. In similar note, it could also be quite good as an answer, just requiring a bit more tact when using him. I am contemplating adding Torpor Orb to the deck. Although we use many ETB rampers, it's simple enough to drop the orb after our ramp dudes. Since we don't use any blink shenanigans, it should do more damage elsewhere.
Eye of Doom - Green hurts for wrath effects, but I'm not even running O-stone currently. Though I should be. Why am I not?
Foster is a reprint that I hadn't previously considered due to the deck being creature light. It could be useful, though we're not running very much GY recursion.
Hua Tuo, Honored Physician is now more affordable. He can be used as a mini-genesis to regrow land ramping speed bumps, or be used with clamp wood elves. Not convinced on him, but the cheaper option is nice to have.
Naya Soulbeast - is a big beater. Would prefer in Ghave, or any other deck that can use the counters more profitably than big beater.
Opal Palace - Making Nemata bigger is usually not a goal or concern. As it will tap for less than forest, not for this deck.
Primal Vigor - The elephant in the room, while typically we intend to kill rather quickly after this drops, and we should be able to use it more effectively than our opponents, it becomes a dead card vs certain matchups. For example, never drop this opposite a Riku, Ghave, Hazezon, etc. I think the chances of running into problems with this outweigh most benefits, and there are enough doublers that you don't need to run this one. While it will affect less people, potential risks are high to enabling combo.
Restore - Solid, I like it. Can recoup a Cradle that we lose. Run Life, and Crucible first though, since we care little about stealing other peoples lands.
Spawning Grounds - Not impressed. Sets you up to be strip mined very fast, and in most cases you're better off making more saprolings.
Tempt with Discovery - pretty much a non-entwined reap and sow. Added benefit if it gets copied, but no one should ever do that. You could try and get away with it early on if there's a mana-screwed player, to get Glaciers + temple, or even Cradle + temple, but it's a long shot.
===
So, Comm 13 gave us a bunch of second copies of stuff that's decent, which is kinda nice.
Courser of Kruphix may be a decent card. Testing will tell, the loss of extra land drops make me sad, but fake-card advantage in green is not to be lightly turned down.
Hunter's Prowess - Green Card draw, in multiplayer you have more chances at open opponents, so it could be a secondary Harmonize... maybe. Not too impressed with it, honestly. It's too easy to lose it to removal, though casting it on a token is pretty funny.
Mortal's Resolve - New green 'save me' spell. Not too shabby, but again, not my flavor of tea. I'd run Wrap in Vigor first.
Nessian Demolok - Wants to be an acidic slime, but isn't. You can probably politic it out, by choosing a mutual opponent, but it's likely to disappoint. I'll probably make a deck full of them just for fun, but I expect little from it. Kinda funny with Doubling Season.
Peregrination - adding 1 mana to our Cultivate variants for a scry 1 doesn't impress me. I want my ramp out sooner, not be a fake peek.
Satyr Wayfinder - This guy could see play in some mono-green decks. Draws a land, and fuels some dredge-ish tech. Not too shabby for those that recover their yard more. Not for this deck, but keep an eye on him a bit. If he put the land into play, he'd be awesome. Skyreaping - dealing damage to each can make this a potent secondary Whirlwind. Unravel the Æther - A secondary Deglamer is not a bad thing to have. Since I haven't updated my removal yet since Theros, some of the changes I'm noticing around my meta will likely have me shift in a bit more enchantment hate. Both of these are likely to enter the deck very soon.
Astral Cornucopia - Make big mana, get big mana. Not abusing the artifact untapping much here, but I like big mana.
Journey gave us a number of good options, both in artifact/enchantment destruction as well as a few more mana sinks, and a decent mana flare. Nothing really made me jump up and windmill slam an inclusion though.
The only major change the deck is currently looking at are some minor modifications to the artifact/enchantment answers to deal a bit better with gods.
It has been pointed out that my original decklist still had Sylvan Primordial in it. Color me red. He was replaced long ago by Earthcraft, I know, I know, shameful... The card simply is that powerful though, and it jumped in to combat some of the more serious additions to our playgroup.
I haven't posted my M15 thoughts here yet, so might as well do that before I fall too far behind as well.
Chord of Calling has been made cheaper (money wise) due to M15. This is always a nice tutor to have, especially with the token options in the deck. Getting Vorinclex at instant speed, or having a removal option available at will is always nice.
Genesis Hydra is no Gen Wave, but getting one of our doublers dug out and uncounterable is a big plus.
Hunter's Ambush - I've always enjoyed the concept of playing with fogs. Having a mostly 1-sided version seems nice, though there are a lot of green decks running around that you need to be a little bit careful with it.
Nissa, Worldwaker - Big mana deck loves untapping its lands. I doubt she'll stay alive long, but she can be immense value.
Reclamation Sage - we don't have a lot of recurability in this deck, but there is some, and there is a skullclamp, so this will be marginally better than a naturalize here. Other decks of mine would get these guys first, but it;ll never be a bad fit.
Perilous Vault adds another board-wipe option, and exiling things can be difficult for green.
Dragon Throne of Tarkir. This is amusing on a saproling, as you can sack fresh ones to boost everything, then use this one to double the investment and grant trample, then sack the guy anyways for an extra +1.
Fate reforged has given a few more mana producing options for the deck, as well as decent answers.
Destructor Dragon - While not the largest body, it flies, is of middling size, and has a sort-of Desert Twister stapled on. Not too shabby.
Frontier Siege - The Mana mode is what makes the play. 4 extra mana per turn is nothing shabby, especially when we have a mana sink commander.
Return to the Earth - Another Flying or X destroy spell, adds 1 to the cost to hit enchantments too. Nothing exciting, but an option if you prefer more versatility on your removal.
Shamanic Revelation - Huge card draw at a lower cost, with marginal upside bonus.
Winds of Qal Sisma - While I also do not run fogs, I do find that they are rather underplayed in multiplayer formats. One sided fogs can be especially backbreaking.
Mass Land D as an answer to mana ramp as a philosophy has just been a sore spot for me for ages, since I believe that it is inaccurate. Hopefully this game puts a point in my favor with the player who holds that philosophy.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
First thoughts on cards from the new set:
Aerial Predation - This deck loves its kill flying spells, but I don't run plummet, and that would enter before this.
Archweaver - A spider that actually does damage! Sadly, a 5/5 is a bit small to stop the standard set of EDH flyers.
Chorus of Might - Usually Nemata handles the killy thing quite well, but this could be an option for commander damage, or as a back-up if bad things happen to Nemata.
Death's Presence - When you start sacrificing saprolings for increasing benefits, some funny things might happen with this out. Usually at that point you've won anyways, but it's still worth pointing it out. Also, free +1/+1 counters for eating saprolings for cards or lands could be nice as well.
Druid's Deliverance - Fog + Saproling? I don't think it will make the cut here, sadly.
Mana Bloom - This card intrigues me. Stockpile mana to curve out your next few turns? Likely the one mana won't make a huge difference, but I like the concept here.
Urban Burgeoning - With the doublers in the deck, this could amount to an extra saproling per turn, or more if you actually get to land it on the cradle. Interesting.
Worldspine Wurm - If only because we can actually play it. A decent end game plan-b beater. I like my Dauntless Dourbark, but this guy has some distinct advantages in his favor.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Green
Alpha Authority - Another green protective instant. If needed, can be added to the available options as selectable choices for protecting Nemata.-misread this as an instant. Immensely less cool.Artifacts and Land
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
- Chain of Acid - All two times I've been mindslavered, I've had this in hand. Always hilarious, not a position to want to be in. Overall, I haven't found myself using it much, as I stand to lose a doubler on the repercussion.
+ Duplicant - Wanted more creature removal.
- Nature's Will - Nature's was a pre-banning replacement for primetime, and I never got around to adding something new. The Will is brutally strong, as it will trigger per opponent, but I want to try out some other toys.
+ Genesis - Ever since I added a stronger suite of creature ramp/removal, I've been wanting some more recursion.
- Woodfall Primus
+ Terastodon - I pulled out terras to see how I liked persist... I think terastodon simply adds much more to the deck. Neither can really be abused.
- Battlefield Scrounger - Scrounger was a way to recycle used cards, and doubled as a small threat. I've never really needed the recycling, and he's a bit wussy as a threat.
+ Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - I pulled him ages ago, when I started pulling Overruns. Now that I have more of a creature ramp suite, Kamahl boosts them, and can win games alone if Nemata is out of action somehow.
-Desert Twister
+Spine of Ish Sah - I don't really have a way to abuse Spine, so I figure 1 more mana is acceptable to hit pro-green objects, and who knows, maybe it will come back.
===
Probable GTC changes will be the inclusion of Sylvan Primordial, Illusionist's Bracers, and Ivy Lane Denizen.
What they are replacing is still partially being decided.
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With nasty mana, Kamahl, fist of Krosa is an absolute beast. I've won games before just dropping him on the field, animating lands and then buffing them to lethal. His wrath protection is also a bonus if that kind of LD isn't too frowned upon.
I really do like Genesis, however Nature's Will just looks so mean for this deck. I'd probably find a way to slot both in the deck if I had the chance.
If you are OK with 7 mana and want something to hit pro green, my buddy Karn Liberated is potentially better since you have no built in way to bounce Spine of Ish Sah. With your hoard of tokens you should be able to protect him to get a few actions. Worst case, Karn exiles versus destroys for the same mana cost which is relevant against a few irritating permanents.
I'm not sure I like Illusionist bracers without 10 or maybe 15 creatures that can abuse it, but it does get crazy with Nemata, almost like a 5 mana doubler that is less versatile. Only time will tell.
Ivy Lane Denizen reminds me of Juniper Order Ranger in a good way. I could see him enabling voltron-esque kills with Nemata here and there as the situation demanded. I would think Nemata would still get the counters even if Elesh Norn were on an opponent's field.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Nature's Will is absolutely disgusting. On one end it is a like a sword of feast and famine... for all your creatures. On a second note, it will trigger per opponent that is hit, so you can get multiple untaps out of it.
It draws out an aggressive playstyle though,
Typically, if I have excess tokens, protecting Karn won't be the issue, since the game should be ending very, very soon. It takes surprisingly few tokens to kill with Nemata.
That said, exiling is a huge bonus, allowing some indestructible removal, which in retrospect is slightly lacking.
Unfortunately, I only have one Karn available to me, and I have recently been issued a challenge to use less proxies cross-decks (which I feel is silly, but I'll abide for now).
I agree that in whole, Karn will likely slot in better. I'll need to keep my eyes open for an extra, or get to work with some crayons for when the challenge ends. =P
The deck is heavily focused around Nemata right now; he's a one-stop army in a can, and the bracers make him go insane. Slowly adding a few other options for the bracers seems like a good idea, but my Meta doesn't play into Spins or Hinders, so I'm pretty safe on it.
Nemata kills, pumping up those little land fetchers, Ivy Lane just seems like a lot of fun. Elesh is exactly what I was thinking of when I saw him. You are right that the creatures still enter the battlefield, then immediately die, but Ivy lane's ability will still trigger.
Of all the "denizen" cycle, I like him the best, and there are a lot of decks that will like him.
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My observations and experiences show that Gleeful Sabotage and its conspire play very well with a horde of saprolings.
Craterhoof Behemoth provides my biggest pump for explosive game endings (or explosive misfires - either way, 'tis fun!)
Sylvan Primordial is as potent as expected, even outside of Commander games.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
So far:
Trophy Hunter->Brittle Effigy.
I hate creatures with flying, but I've never actually used the hunter to any sort of good effect. The effigy gives me a shot at permanent removal, which seems cool.
Skullmulcher->Duplicant.Another move towards colorless, permanent removal. I dislike cutting draw, but thypically by the time I have enough creatures to use the mulcher, I'm just killing people anyways. Since I've never used him, I'm going to pull him and see what's what.
Duplicant is actually already in the list, makes it a bit hard to legally add him.
Gurzigost->Sylvan Primordial
My biggest issue here is what category to I put the primordial in? Is he removal? Ramp? Air Defense? Suffice to say he's awesome. Gurzi is a pet card of mine, and in theory his face smasher ability would be useful, but I haven't ever wanted to gut my graveyard anymore, ever since I added a fair bit more recovery to the deck from ages ago. I'm a bit sad to pull him before Ivy lane Denizen comes in, as they're likely best buds.
Doubling Cube -> Illusionists Bracers
One doubler for another, same cost, same 'activation' cost, but the bracers do not require to use a large amount of mana at one time. The cube though, did allow me to spend mana on other than saprolings, and also interacted hilariously with Mana Reflections.
Stoneseeder Heirophant -> Ivy Lane Denizen.
Stoneseeder is well known in my playgroup to rip all my land out with glaciers, or be insane with cradle, or even a few doubling effects and ramp spells. She ends up bringing more fire to bear on me than benefit, so it seems like a good time to try the denizen in her place.
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...
Nothing to update... This set gave us nothing...
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Thanks for the catch on the deck counts, I noticed I have a few other sections off as well, silly me. I'll need to compare to my actual deck to find where the discrepancies actually are.
Vernal Bloom is indeed actually in the deck. This deck does indeed simply want to double mana that much.
While I could use snow covered lands with the lens, it doesn't actually hurt me any not to, especially considering that bloom and gauntlet help opponents as much, if not more. Overall, I'm not really concerned about helping out opponents, plus any opponent I should be afraid of helping, has probably pimped their deck to snowcovered lands anyways. =P
It is true that tucking Nemata is a weakness of the Deck. Even so, there are a few reasons:
1) Jade mage is quite weak, it lacks half of Nemata's abilities, and dies very very easily. In this regard, even Ant Queen would be a better option by my book.
2) With a few useful creatures in the deck, I would almost prefer running an extra tutor rather than a token producer who will be a dead card with Nemata out.
3) it does nothing against the other deck weakness: Elesh Norn and similar effects.
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Thank you good sir for your astute perusal.
The following inconsistencies were noted:
Centaur RootCaster, Skullmulcher, Carpet of Flowers and Beastmaster Ascension were not in the deck (and have not been for some time).
Seedborne Muse, and Shinen of Life's Roar are in the deck.
That is -4, +2, for a net -2. The decklist in the OP was in actuality sitting at 102 cards, as there were also 10 enchantments listed, yet the header said 9. 102-2 is the correct 100, and I now need to update my decklist.
Also, 1 forest is actually a Buried Ruin, probably for a year now. If not more.
Before I do, some of these missing cards are a bit odd to have cut at first glance, some are not.
Removals: (ages old, but hey)
Adds!
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M14 Review!
Into the Wilds looks interesting as 'free' ramp, but it needs to hit at least 2 lands to justify its cost, and at 40% land, that's 4-5ish turns, which is a bit too long for my tastes in this deck.
Savage Summoning is a cute trick to drop Nemata out EoT to get an untap with him. Due to the lack of haste in the deck, I don't like terribly much here, since I'll still need a round around the table, but it wouldn't be farfetched to drop Nemata EoT, untap and make saprolings, and even if they take out Nemata then, if it's not a wrath you can simply drop him next turn for the sac/pump effect and still attack with army. I also am a fan of being prepared, and though my meta is light on counterspells and hinders... be prepared.
Sporemound is pretty cool. I don't like the 5 cost, but getting extra tokens just for dropping lands is pretty cool. I don't know if it'll be enough, but he may cycle in for some fun testing. My impressions is that he'll be too little, and a bit too slow, but I could be pleasantly surprised.
Windsotrm is a reprint, but I didn't know about the original. A potential add to Whirlwind and Silklash Spider for those effects, especially since it is instant speed. I like instants.
Ring of Three Wishes, I didn't run planar portal, but this could be a decent draw-what-I-Need-to-combo-off piece.
Staff of the Wild Magus, honestly, I'm not terribly impressed even with essence warden, and if it hadn't saved my in a few key situations, even the warden would be gone. And the warden will net a lot more life than this thing.
Strionic Resonator - not the deck for it, this deck is about activated abilities.
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Theros Cards and Stuff!
So, not too many new green cards fit this style of play. None of the heroic stuff, or bestow stuff really help us out, and there isn't a lot of army support.
There are a few new removal spells, and Fade into Antiquity is interesting for the exile support, even at sorcery speed, but I'm likely to hold off adding it until a few gods start showing up in my meta. Even then, Deglamer will obviously be added first.
Ordeal of Nylea is interesting as it's a form of +2 land ramp for cheap, but does take a while to get up to speed, has a lot of risk, and requires early presence first... Then time when the board is most ripe with removal. I don't think this is the deck for it.
Polukranos, World Eater is interesting as a removal option, as well as a potential alternate win-con with the amount of mana we can generate. I think he might be better suited in other green decks, like Azusa, Omnath, and Khamal, but he certainly still has potential here.
Shredding Winds is interesting flying hate, and 7 is often enough a big enough number, but I fail to see any reason to run it with other, better, options which simply straight up make flyer(s) dead.
Bow of Nylea is interesting in the versatility. It allows us to throw saprolings wherever, but sadly, deathtouch on attacks alone is not like too useful, and the modes don't do nearly enough here. A much different story I feel in Kamahl, where it can do massive damage when paired with trample.
ARTIFACTS!
Burnished Hart gets a mention because it should get a mention in every EDH deck. A +2 land ramp is amazing in any form, and while it's more expensive than Explosive Vegetation, it's spread over two turns, more easily returned for repeated use, can act as a chump block before sac, is an artifact so can block Sword of Feast and Famine, can be Skullclamped, triggers Fecundity, etc, etc. You get the point. Not 100% sold on this deck (and I have many other decks that call for it first), but a potential addition to the lineup of ramp creatures.
Witches' Eye - If any deck can make profitable use of this... it's probably a token deck. Strong enough? Doubt it. I'd rather use the mana for more saprolings.
LANDS!
Or land, rather, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. While big mana is certainly the name of the game, I don't think this is the path we want here. Sadly tokens do not add to devotion, and often enough we don't have much more than Nemata, a few doublers (which may or may not be artifacts), and maybe a left-over mana ramp creature. It's something I'll need to pay far more attention to in future games in case I need to revise my opinion, but at present I think that the benefit will be minor, at best.
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Torn between testing out Nemata, Grove Guardian and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa as a mono-green commander and this thread has made me lean toward Nemata.
In regards to Earthcraft, does it go infinite with Nemata by itself? I can't seem to see how without some either token or mana-doublers but the fact that it is being excluded makes me feel like I am missing some possible interaction(s).
EDIT: Found my answer regarding Earthcraft in the "Infinitude" section.
It doesn't go it alone, but there was a period where I was very conscious of infinite mana or of infinite combos in general. It's a very good card in any kind of token-green deck, or even just a normal green deck if you're looking for simply a good card. If your meta doesn't frown on infinites, you should definitely run it.
If you're looking between Nemata and Khamal, check out Galspanic's Kamahl primer as well if you want to balance the other side of the opinion.
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Done and done. Going with Nemata - having Kamahl in the 99 serving as an alt-win condition was good enough for me at this point. Using it as an excuse to pickup some staple green cards as I have largely ignored the color up until this point.
Here is the decklist I'll be trying out:
1 Nemata, Grove Guardian
//Ramp (12)
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Khalni Heart Expedition
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Seedguide Ash
1 Boundless Realms
//Doubles (10)
1 Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Vernal Bloom
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Caged Sun
1 Mana Reflection
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Parallel Lives
1 Doubling Season
1 Illusionist's Bracers
1 Perilous Forays
1 Skullclamp
1 Fecundity
1 Psychotrope Thallid
1 Masked Admirers
1 Seer's Sundial
1 Mind's Eye
1 Sylvan Library
//Absurd (4)
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Awakening
1 Earthcraft
1 Nature's Will
//Recursion (4)
1 Life from the Loam
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Creeping Renaissance
//Removal (13)
1 Beast Within
1 Krosan Grip
1 Reap and Sow
1 Acidic Slime
1 Terastodon
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Predator, Flagship
1 Silklash Spider
1 Shinen of Life's Roar
1 Crushing Vines
1 Whirlwind
1 Duplicant
1 Brittle Effigy
1 Dauntless Dourbark
1 Essence Warden
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Traproot Kami
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Eldrazi Monument
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Green Sun's Zenith
//Lands (40)
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Deserted Temple
1 Strip Mine
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Petrified Field
1 Buried Ruin
1 City of Shadows
1 Winding Canyons
32 Forest
Has been pretty fun in testing, but not sure how it will stand up in my spot-removal heavy playgroup. However, I am trying to diverge from making decks filled with answers (black, white, blue) to decks that simply play/ramp through said answers.
Once again, thanks for the primer. Hope you continue to update it.
One thing that can be quite nice in green is Birthing Pod. I haven't run it in my own Nemata deck, though I've run it in others, and it can be a veritable power-house. Even simply progressing up the chain of land rampers can be very useful.
If removal is a problem, a few choice pieces are Sylvan Safekeeper and Wrap in Vigor. Both can be a choice surprise.
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Almost halfway through the set finally, and the best we've got is a second Deglamer.
Though, it's not too surprising since this isn't a token heavy set, nor an artifact heavy set.
===
I did however forget to go over the Comm 13 cards:
Bane of Progress has the capability to do a lot of damage to us. In similar note, it could also be quite good as an answer, just requiring a bit more tact when using him. I am contemplating adding Torpor Orb to the deck. Although we use many ETB rampers, it's simple enough to drop the orb after our ramp dudes. Since we don't use any blink shenanigans, it should do more damage elsewhere.
Eye of Doom - Green hurts for wrath effects, but I'm not even running O-stone currently. Though I should be. Why am I not?
Foster is a reprint that I hadn't previously considered due to the deck being creature light. It could be useful, though we're not running very much GY recursion.
Hua Tuo, Honored Physician is now more affordable. He can be used as a mini-genesis to regrow land ramping speed bumps, or be used with clamp wood elves. Not convinced on him, but the cheaper option is nice to have.
Naya Soulbeast - is a big beater. Would prefer in Ghave, or any other deck that can use the counters more profitably than big beater.
Opal Palace - Making Nemata bigger is usually not a goal or concern. As it will tap for less than forest, not for this deck.
Primal Vigor - The elephant in the room, while typically we intend to kill rather quickly after this drops, and we should be able to use it more effectively than our opponents, it becomes a dead card vs certain matchups. For example, never drop this opposite a Riku, Ghave, Hazezon, etc. I think the chances of running into problems with this outweigh most benefits, and there are enough doublers that you don't need to run this one. While it will affect less people, potential risks are high to enabling combo.
Restore - Solid, I like it. Can recoup a Cradle that we lose. Run Life, and Crucible first though, since we care little about stealing other peoples lands.
Spawning Grounds - Not impressed. Sets you up to be strip mined very fast, and in most cases you're better off making more saprolings.
Tempt with Discovery - pretty much a non-entwined reap and sow. Added benefit if it gets copied, but no one should ever do that. You could try and get away with it early on if there's a mana-screwed player, to get Glaciers + temple, or even Cradle + temple, but it's a long shot.
===
So, Comm 13 gave us a bunch of second copies of stuff that's decent, which is kinda nice.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Courser of Kruphix may be a decent card. Testing will tell, the loss of extra land drops make me sad, but fake-card advantage in green is not to be lightly turned down.
Hunter's Prowess - Green Card draw, in multiplayer you have more chances at open opponents, so it could be a secondary Harmonize... maybe. Not too impressed with it, honestly. It's too easy to lose it to removal, though casting it on a token is pretty funny.
Mortal's Resolve - New green 'save me' spell. Not too shabby, but again, not my flavor of tea. I'd run Wrap in Vigor first.
Nessian Demolok - Wants to be an acidic slime, but isn't. You can probably politic it out, by choosing a mutual opponent, but it's likely to disappoint. I'll probably make a deck full of them just for fun, but I expect little from it. Kinda funny with Doubling Season.
Peregrination - adding 1 mana to our Cultivate variants for a scry 1 doesn't impress me. I want my ramp out sooner, not be a fake peek.
Satyr Wayfinder - This guy could see play in some mono-green decks. Draws a land, and fuels some dredge-ish tech. Not too shabby for those that recover their yard more. Not for this deck, but keep an eye on him a bit. If he put the land into play, he'd be awesome.
Skyreaping - dealing damage to each can make this a potent secondary Whirlwind.
Unravel the Æther - A secondary Deglamer is not a bad thing to have. Since I haven't updated my removal yet since Theros, some of the changes I'm noticing around my meta will likely have me shift in a bit more enchantment hate. Both of these are likely to enter the deck very soon.
Astral Cornucopia - Make big mana, get big mana. Not abusing the artifact untapping much here, but I like big mana.
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The only major change the deck is currently looking at are some minor modifications to the artifact/enchantment answers to deal a bit better with gods.
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I haven't posted my M15 thoughts here yet, so might as well do that before I fall too far behind as well.
Chord of Calling has been made cheaper (money wise) due to M15. This is always a nice tutor to have, especially with the token options in the deck. Getting Vorinclex at instant speed, or having a removal option available at will is always nice.
Genesis Hydra is no Gen Wave, but getting one of our doublers dug out and uncounterable is a big plus.
Hunter's Ambush - I've always enjoyed the concept of playing with fogs. Having a mostly 1-sided version seems nice, though there are a lot of green decks running around that you need to be a little bit careful with it.
Nissa, Worldwaker - Big mana deck loves untapping its lands. I doubt she'll stay alive long, but she can be immense value.
Reclamation Sage - we don't have a lot of recurability in this deck, but there is some, and there is a skullclamp, so this will be marginally better than a naturalize here. Other decks of mine would get these guys first, but it;ll never be a bad fit.
Perilous Vault adds another board-wipe option, and exiling things can be difficult for green.
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Hooded Hydra. It's a threat, with post-wrath presence. Nothing special, but solid.
Savage Punch. More fight removal.
Fetch Lands. Can be used with Rings of Brighthearth or Crucible of Worlds for ramp purposes, despite being a mono-colored deck. Spice in with Exploration and Azusa, lost but seeking.
Dragon Throne of Tarkir. This is amusing on a saproling, as you can sack fresh ones to boost everything, then use this one to double the investment and grant trample, then sack the guy anyways for an extra +1.
Commander 2014
Lifeblood Hydra. This is essentially a Stream of Life stapled to a Braingeyser that you can smack people with. I think I am in love.
Song of the Dryads. Color pie violation discussion aside, this is another excellent removal piece for mono-green decks. Color it as beast within #2
Arcane Lighthouse. Could be useful to be able to target opposing creatures with what little removal we have.
Myriad Landscape. Land ramp, on a land. I like it.
Unstable Obelisk. Another dream come true for mono-colored decks. A second Spine of Ish-Sah is indeed what the doctor ordered.
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Fate reforged has given a few more mana producing options for the deck, as well as decent answers.
Destructor Dragon - While not the largest body, it flies, is of middling size, and has a sort-of Desert Twister stapled on. Not too shabby.
Frontier Siege - The Mana mode is what makes the play. 4 extra mana per turn is nothing shabby, especially when we have a mana sink commander.
Return to the Earth - Another Flying or X destroy spell, adds 1 to the cost to hit enchantments too. Nothing exciting, but an option if you prefer more versatility on your removal.
Shamanic Revelation - Huge card draw at a lower cost, with marginal upside bonus.
Winds of Qal Sisma - While I also do not run fogs, I do find that they are rather underplayed in multiplayer formats. One sided fogs can be especially backbreaking.
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