WHAT DOES THIS DECK DO?
At its very core this deck aims to win the war of attrition, or in other words it wins by having more on the board and in your hand than your opponents. It accomplishes this by a streamlined strategy and utilizing the strengths of Teneb, the Harvester's colors. WBG can deal with any permanent. Reusable and efficient removal, mass and spot, is paramount. Added value is gained by using creatures that get value regardless of living or dying and through many forms of recursion. Over time the deck chips away the amount of threats and resources your opponents have until you are able to win with a superior board state.
WHY PLAY THIS DECK?
You enjoy the long game, carefully planning and working towards your win instead of comboing out or overrunning an opponent with aggro, that is until victory is certain. You want a deck with lots of interactions and synergy while being able to neutralize anything your opponents slap down on the board. It's not about the stack, counters or what's in your opponents hand. It's about physical things on the battlefield. You control that, and by doing so you will win. Without threats, they cannot kill you. Without resources they cannot play threats. You will deny both.
RAMP Oracle of Mul Daya
One of my favorite ways to filer lands out of the deck. Works well in this deck since there are many fetchlands and tutors that all shuffle the deck insuring she drops more than one land into play a turn. Reap and Sow
Gets any land needed and puts it into play. Decent substitute for Primeval Titan in getting the needed utility land or getting big mana with Cabal + Urborg. Also can be used to destroy pesky lands, even while ramping. Sol Ring
Nothing new you’ll hear from me. Just too good. Seeduide Ash
Throws ANY three forests into play when it dies. That includes dual lands. This makes it a huge rattlesnake. Makes those Wrath’s so much better. I especially like using it with Birthing Pod for a Primeval Titan. 5 lands into play! Darksteel Ingot
Ramp that taps for any color that is invulnerable to the removal in the deck. Always solid early game. Solemn Simulacrum
Almost always a good choice for any EDH deck, and no arguments here. Great for reanimation and with Reveillark since it can be ramp, a blocker and draw. Wood Elves
Forest into play. Into play untapped. Synergy with Reveillark, Sun Titan and Skullclamp. Super strong early play. Coalition Relic
Like Darksteel Ingot but more fragile, but can net you an extra colored mana a turn. Sakura-Tribe Elder
Early game ramp, brought back by Sun Titan and Reveillark. Can be a chump blocer before sacking it which is a plus.
UTILITY CREATURES Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Jack of all trades in this deck and every one of those trades is needed. Is able to gain life, be a blocker, and get scary big to be a win con. It's a sac outlet which synergies with the rest of the while also being good spot removal. Spike Weaver
3 Fogs on a stick. Saves you from combat damage for cheap. Saves you a turn or two, and in this format that sometimes is all you need. Reveillark can bring it back. Yosei, the Morning Star
With all the sac effects and recursion this is one of the quick and dirty ways to seal the deal and win. Used “fairly” it acts as a rattlesnake. Avenger of Zendikar
Offensive or defensive, this card does it both. Sometimes you need a lot of creatures to get damage through and sometimes you need a lot of creatures to block with. I can’t think of creature that can do both so well as this.
MISC PERMANENTS Lightning Greaves
Protects whats important, and gives haste for added value to the likes of Sun Titan, Teneb and Primeval Titan. True Conviction
Sometimes you need life, and this is the best way to get a lot of it in a deck with lots of creatures. The fact that it can be a win con and turns almost any creature into a threat is just a bonus. Phyrexian Altar
The deck is colored mana intensive so this can enable some serious ramp, especially into an early mass removal if needed. It’s really here because it’s a free sac outlet that can enable infinite colored mana and combos with Reveillark and Karmic Guide.
DRAW Harmonize
Three cards for four mana. Deal. Sensei’s Divining Top
Just too good. I don’t think I can say anything else new. Skullclamp
Cheap draw. With all the creatures dying it just makes sense. Greater Good
A sac outlet with good draw, and it can fill your graveyard. Works best with fatties which there is a good amount of. Really piss people off by sacking those fatties to it before you wrath. Can be the best source of draw during a game which leads to a win. Phyrexian Arena
One of my favorite early game plays, and if your opponents are smart, public enemy number one. Sun Titan brings it back. Score! Decree of Pain
Yes it’s also removal, but it’s included mainly because it often provides an insane amount of draw on top of that late game, which sometimes is needed. This card once resolved will often either seal the deal or turn the game around in your favor.
RECURSION Eternal Witness
Brings anything back to your hand. Repeated uses via Sun Titan and Reveillark. Draws cards install off of Skullclamp. Yeah there is a reason why this is at the top of green’s auto-include list. Living Death
Doubles as removal, sacrifice removal, which is the best kind. In this deck the recursion will often benefit you more than other decks since almost every creature is worth its weight in its come into play ability. Sun Titan
An auto include if you’re playing white in my opinion. Works well with so many permanents and it’s a backbone to the strategy of the deck. Karmic Guide
Not much I can say new here either. Part of the Reveillark combo. Sheoldred, Whispering One
Removal and recursion in one. Like Living Death but with a body. Like the Titans the longer this stays around the more victory is certain. Saffi Eriksdotter
Cheaply and instantly enables any of those enter the battlefield triggers. Gets crazy with Sun Titan and Reveillark. Grave Betrayal
Expensive? Yes. But it can be cheated into play with Academy Rector. Regardless it’s worth the risk in this deck due to the plethora of value gained by stealing a lot of your opponents creatures. With all the spot removal and mass removal this card can get insane and bring concessions real quick. Life from the Loam
Mana is needed. Colored mana especially. This brings back those 6 fetchlands to ensure you keep playing those spells. It also gets back the most important land cards, Cabal Coffers and Urborg. Those enable big mana, but also tend to get destroyed a lot. Big mana is so important that a dedicated way to get it back is needed. Reveillark
Combo piece and a backbone of the recursion. Two for one is what attrition is all about. Genesis
Sometimes all you have is mana, especially with all the removal you’re playing. This gives you something useful play. Crime // Punishment
Stealing a creature like that Consecrated Sphinx you just blew up is nice. Stealing Mana Reflection can be just as nice. If there is nothing good to recur, there is probably lots of things that can be blown up. Also wrecks tokens.
TUTORS Green Sun’s Zenith
Green creature into play for one G more. Yeah that’s really, really good. Rune-Scarred Demon
Demonic Tutor on a 6/6 flying body, that in this deck is easily reacrruable. Yes please. Academy Rector
Cheats in draw, a sac outlet, life or recursion. Any one of those is needed no matter the board state. Fierce Empath
Tutors up needed mid to late game creatures. Brought back with Reveillark and Sun Titan, draws cards off Skullclamp. Eternal witness is to recursion as Fierce Empath is to tutors. Demonic Tutor
Surprised? Tooth and Nail
In this deck it’s used to really bring the permanent destruction pain. Either through bring creatures into play that bring other stuff back or by blowing up opponents stuff. Either way, your board is getting relatively bigger compared to your opponents. And that’s all that matters. Birthing Pod
A sac outlet and tutor into play all in one. It’s reusable and relatively cheap to activate. Scapeshift
Another Primeval Titan substitute. Can fetch up any of those lands needed, and the ones sacked can be brought back with Life from the Loam or Sun Titan so it's drawback is not always that bad. Combined with Avenger of Zendikar it can allow it to swing for some massive game ending damage. Primal Command
Does a little bit of everything, but is mainly included for it's tutor option and graveyard shuffle, which can protect your yard or mess someone's up. The life gain and permanent control are sometimes useful when one of the two main choices are not needed.
TARGETED REMOVAL Archon of Justice
Deals with indestructible permanents like Darksteel Forge. Is a flying blocker and rattlesnake. A decent Greater Good target and an even better target for Birthing Pod! Harmonic Sliver
Come into play artifact and enchantment removal. Works with Skullclamp and can be brought back with Reveillark and Sun Titan for repeated use. Woodfall Primus
One of the big boys. Get’s along very well with Greater Good. Swords to Plowshares
Sometimes you don’t have time to remove something on your turn. Instantly get rid of a problem creature. Acidic Slime
Like Swords to Plowshares but for anything. I included this specifically for things like Torpor Orb which can shut down this deck. Necrotic Sliver
More expensive than vindicate to get a first use, but easily reusable thanks to Reveillark and Sunt Titan. Angel of Despair
Vindicate on a big flying body. Terastodon
The big boy. Saves the day getting rid of lots of combo pieces, or you can be extra mean and mana-screw someone. Duplicant
Here to get rid of things like Iona. Brought back with Reveillark.
MASS REMOVAL Black Sun’s Zenith
Get’s around indestructible and shroud. This deck makes a lot of mana quick so it can deal with even the biggest baddest creatures. Sunblast Angel
Wrath on a stick, but this one can be tutored into play via Tooth and Nail when you have no tutor for a wrath. Curse of the Cabal
Very expensive but very brutal against certain decks. Those decks with lots of indestructible permanents and combo pieces that are accomplishing the same thing this deck is trying to do. If you find yourself in an attrition war with someone and you’re not winning this can’t take them out. Just watch out for the blue and red players with their Wild Richotet’s and Redirect’s! This spell will destroy this deck in most instances. Austere Command
Versatile, versatile and versatile. Novablast Wurm
Another board wipe on a stick. This one is repeatable and can be a wincon. I love it. Wrath of God
Cheap and effective. Yes sometimes you need to cast it turn 4! Damnation
Wrath of God number two. Akroma’s Vengeance
Gets rid of every permanent besides land and planeswalkers. Good enough! Planar Cleansing
The blow up everything but land card.
All of this has forced me to make some tough cuts and I still have a good dozen good cards that I hated to cut.
Welcome to the EDH format. You'll be doing a lot of that. There are over 20,000 different cards in print, and you get to pick only 60 of them.
Might I suggest playing a few more spells that reanimate some of your opponents' things after you blow them up? Seems a little counter-productive to play your stuff, blow it up, and then recur it. I'd try something like Geth, Chainer, or Beacon of Unrest.
Welcome to the EDH format. You'll be doing a lot of that. There are over 20,000 different cards in print, and you get to pick only 60 of them.
Might I suggest playing a few more spells that reanimate some of your opponents' things after you blow them up? Seems a little counter-productive to play your stuff, blow it up, and then recur it. I'd try something like Geth, Chainer, or Beacon of Unrest.
Heh. Thanks. I've been playing EDH since June, and have four decks together already. This is my first deck and I've been fine tuning it ever since its inception. I guess what I was trying to say is that I thought it would get easier to fine tune the deck as time went on, but it has been just the opposite!
Besides Teneb and Debtor's Knell I don't have a way to steal anything from their graveyards and that is a good point, however I didn't think your suggestions were the best additions to the deck, but it did remind me of one card that I had to cut that would be a perfect addition. Puppeteer Clique. It's a creature, which in my deck can get many uses, not including it's own built in ability, persist. Flying always helps, and along with the haste it gives their creature it can be a game winner. It's also recurable with Reveillark. I think it's perfect.
I took out a few weaker cards to add in some more ramping creatures, along with Glory.
Oh you're right about that. I forgot that he brings back two or less power, not toughness. Regardless I am going to try it out.
My whole goal for this deck is to get use out of most of my creatures either when they come into play or get killed, either by me or them. That way I don't feel so bad about killing my own stuff when I take their out too, and chances are I'll be getting stuff back a lot easier than they will. Also putting in a bunch of creatures that make them think twice about attacking me also keep me in the game longer so I can take everyone out. Putting my opponents into a no-win situation with a lot of my creatures presence is my goal.
Despite not being a very good size, P-Clique is still an excellent man to play.
One other thing to note: I saw a list by MoltenShark on these forums that featured a Fierce Empath package that included several Titans and a Geth. I might be converting a part of my deck to a similar package, in which case Geth would probably be just as good as P-Clique, if not better. That's about the only reason I can think of to not run the Clique.
As for your deck, and most other Teneb decks out there, your biggest weakness will be graveyard haters. The problem I've noticed is that they are usually very cheap to include, and very difficult to get around. Furthermore, a lot of subtle but effective grave-haters have been printed recently, like Bojuka Bog and Relic of Progenitus and Nihil Spellbomb. You either need Stifle-effects, self-shrouds like Ivory Mask, or something like Brown Ouphe to stop them.
I am well aware of the deck's glaring weakness, but the people I play with still haven't smartened up with the graveyard hate. All I see is a rogue bojuka bog once in a while. Regardless I keep a few sideboard cards to prevent against this. Ivory mask is another one I should pick up.
I would definitely recommend Geth over Puppeteer Clique. He's an evasive beater, he can permanently steal as many creatures and artifacts as you have mana for, and he helps you resist gravehate by taking from other people's graveyards instead of your own (not to mention people might be more hesistant to crack that Relic if you can mill them for a bunch in response). Since you can't recur either with Sun Titan or Reveillark, you might as well go for the stronger one, which imo is Geth.
I would definitely recommend Geth over Puppeteer Clique. He's an evasive beater, he can permanently steal as many creatures and artifacts as you have mana for, and he helps you resist gravehate by taking from other people's graveyards instead of your own (not to mention people might be more hesistant to crack that Relic if you can mill them for a bunch in response). Since you can't recur either with Sun Titan or Reveillark, you might as well go for the stronger one, which imo is Geth.
Mr. Shark is a wise man, and he makes a valid point. There are so many awesome things about Geth that the P-Clique just doesn't have...and he's managed to highlight all of them. Don't sleep on the artifact recursion either, that is a rare ability.
On that note, I'm gonna put my Geth into my Teneb list over P-Clique tonight.
Volrath's Stronghold should have been an auto-include from the beginning. I picked it up and it was well worth the price. I took out Temple of the False God for it. The temple screwed me more times than it helped and I added more late gain mana acceleration to make up for it.
True Conviciton was an interesting choice. Before I totally redisigned this deck I had multiple creatures that had lifelink. Baneslayer Angel, Felidar Sovereign and most recently Phantom Nishoba. With my playgroup usually ganging up on me and a lot of my cards hurting me throughout the game, it is needed. Now my deck no longer relies on creatures with lifelink, but now I have two cards that can give any creature lifelink and I think that works a lot better since I am wiping the board a lot. Enchantments are harder to get rid of. Behemoth Sledge is my other life gaining card wich is great since it can be brought back with Sun Titan. True Conviction also can be cheated/tutored into play.
Rout is a card I'm trying out. I took out some spot removal for it since it's can be instant speed mass removal. Haven't used it much to have a good opinion on it.
Seedguide Ash is my late game mana acceleration. This deck is mana hungry late game and I often find myself wanting to cast a combonation of spells costing over 10 mana total, or I have trouble getting the last few mana for a game finisher like Tooth and Nail. This card helps with all that and fits the creature requirement for my deck. It better do something when it comes in or dies.
I changed this deck a little bit and have come up with an almost complete sideboard. I was thinking about writing up a primer for it since the deck has proven itself to be resilient and I have been working on it for a long time. I know there is another primer for Teneb that has been up so I don't know if one by me is needed.
I completely changed this deck's strategy and deck-list. Being my first EDH deck ever I still play it often, and thus have been able to focus the deck's purpose to what I believe is to a laser focus. I will be adding a description to the deck-list, strategy and weakness sections soon.
True conviction is strong, but its a horrible topdeck when you need to gain life and you either cant afford to attack or dont have a creature. Pelakka Wurm is a great creature to reccur, gains life, draws card, and trample is relevant in a format where chump blockers are everywhere. Miren, the Moaning Well is another great way to gain life off of used etb triggers that you might want to reccur. Wurmcoil Engine is my favorite of the bunch
True conviction is strong, but its a horrible topdeck when you need to gain life and you either cant afford to attack or dont have a creature. Pelakka Wurm is a great creature to reccur, gains life, draws card, and trample is relevant in a format where chump blockers are everywhere. Miren, the Moaning Well is another great way to gain life off of used etb triggers that you might want to reccur. Wurmcoil Engine is my favorite of the bunch
Good call on Ondu Giant. Totally going to replace him with Farhaven Elf. I still like Seedguide because he gets any land, is a rattlesnake and works well with Greater Good and Birthing Pod.
Those two enchantments are good, but I don't think I have room for them. Debtors' Knell and Sheoldred both put creatures into play without paying the cost, and unanswered win the game often in this deck. Even answered if they live for a bit they are still worth it.
True Conviction has always been a reliable way to get a bunch of life in the deck, and is a win condition.
The two enchantments dont put a huge target on your head either though, and will generate card advantage over time. Sheoldred and Knell scream "answer me now". If you get tired of seeing them never last a turn on the board, i'd try these out.
True conviction isnt a win condition, on its own its a dead card that doesnt affect the board start unless you have creatures in play. In long games of attrition where you meet topdeck mode I feel like often times you'll wish it was a creature that gained life instead.
With the amount of removal and trying to keep the board clear of things like enchantments I just don't see them getting much value in this deck compared to the ones mentioned that if not answered will win the game. They also don't require keeping mana open which this deck tries not to do unless you have the rare instant speed removal in hand. It's also why I don't play things like Survival of the Fittest. The deck likes to play what you can, then not worry about it getting blown up because you likely got your advantage out of it already and can get it back. I think the deck has enough ways to do that already.
True Conviction absolutely can be a win con. Often with the amount of recursion I build up a good sized army that can't win by attacking that turn, but can with true conviction. Without it, it might take two turn or more, and late game there is just too many way for opponents to make a comeback with something like Insurrection, stack manipulation or direct burn, all of which this deck is very weak against. Top decking it without creatures sucks, but so do a lot of cards, and I've never found it being a burdensom card to draw or find myself struggling to get something good off the top of the deck. The recursion and draw typical ensure that unless you come across a lot of discard and graveyard removal.
I've changed up the deck a bit with some new inclusions. I found playing online that graveyard removal of opponents was needed more than I was prepared for, so I added two cards to deal with that. Overall the deck has been preforming extremely well, especially against decks without heavy blue/counters. Almost 90% win ratio in 3-4 player games against the non-blue decks, and probably down to 75% with them, but that's because I aggressively go against them preventing them from getting too much mana to ruin my day.
At its very core this deck aims to win the war of attrition, or in other words it wins by having more on the board and in your hand than your opponents. It accomplishes this by a streamlined strategy and utilizing the strengths of Teneb, the Harvester's colors. WBG can deal with any permanent. Reusable and efficient removal, mass and spot, is paramount. Added value is gained by using creatures that get value regardless of living or dying and through many forms of recursion. Over time the deck chips away the amount of threats and resources your opponents have until you are able to win with a superior board state.
WHY PLAY THIS DECK?
You enjoy the long game, carefully planning and working towards your win instead of comboing out or overrunning an opponent with aggro, that is until victory is certain. You want a deck with lots of interactions and synergy while being able to neutralize anything your opponents slap down on the board. It's not about the stack, counters or what's in your opponents hand. It's about physical things on the battlefield. You control that, and by doing so you will win. Without threats, they cannot kill you. Without resources they cannot play threats. You will deny both.
1 Teneb, the Harvester
Ramp 9
1 Sol Ring
1 Reap and Sow
1 Seedguide Ash
1 Wood Elves
1 Coaliltion Relic
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Utility Creatures 4
1 Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
1 Spike Weaver
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Avenger of Zendikar
Misc Permanents 3
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 True Conviction
Draw 6
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Skullclamp
1 Decree of Pain
1 Greater Good
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Harmonize
Spot Removal 10
1 Duplicant
1 Terastodon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Beast Within
1 Acidic Slime
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Archon of Justice
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Wrath of God
1 Damnation
1 Novablast Wurm
1 Austere Command
1 Curse of the Cabal
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Planar Cleansing
1 Black Sun's Zenith
Recursion 11
1 Genesis
1 Reveillark
1 Life from the Loam
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Karmic Guide
1 Sun Titan
1 Living Death
1 Crime // Punishment
1 Grave Betrayal
1 Eternal Witness
Tutors 9
1 Birthing Pod
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Academy Rector
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fierce Empath
1 Scapeshift
1 Primal Command
Land 38
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Twilight Mire
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Bayou
1 Fetid Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Scrubland
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Sungrass Prairie
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Temple Garden
1 Savannah
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Command Tower
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Bojuka Bog
1 High Market
1 Kor Haven
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Grim Backwoods
1 Strip Mine
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
CARD CHOICES
Oracle of Mul Daya
One of my favorite ways to filer lands out of the deck. Works well in this deck since there are many fetchlands and tutors that all shuffle the deck insuring she drops more than one land into play a turn.
Reap and Sow
Gets any land needed and puts it into play. Decent substitute for Primeval Titan in getting the needed utility land or getting big mana with Cabal + Urborg. Also can be used to destroy pesky lands, even while ramping.
Sol Ring
Nothing new you’ll hear from me. Just too good.
Seeduide Ash
Throws ANY three forests into play when it dies. That includes dual lands. This makes it a huge rattlesnake. Makes those Wrath’s so much better. I especially like using it with Birthing Pod for a Primeval Titan. 5 lands into play!
Darksteel Ingot
Ramp that taps for any color that is invulnerable to the removal in the deck. Always solid early game.
Solemn Simulacrum
Almost always a good choice for any EDH deck, and no arguments here. Great for reanimation and with Reveillark since it can be ramp, a blocker and draw.
Wood Elves
Forest into play. Into play untapped. Synergy with Reveillark, Sun Titan and Skullclamp. Super strong early play.
Coalition Relic
Like Darksteel Ingot but more fragile, but can net you an extra colored mana a turn.
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Early game ramp, brought back by Sun Titan and Reveillark. Can be a chump blocer before sacking it which is a plus.
UTILITY CREATURES
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Jack of all trades in this deck and every one of those trades is needed. Is able to gain life, be a blocker, and get scary big to be a win con. It's a sac outlet which synergies with the rest of the while also being good spot removal.
Spike Weaver
3 Fogs on a stick. Saves you from combat damage for cheap. Saves you a turn or two, and in this format that sometimes is all you need. Reveillark can bring it back.
Yosei, the Morning Star
With all the sac effects and recursion this is one of the quick and dirty ways to seal the deal and win. Used “fairly” it acts as a rattlesnake.
Avenger of Zendikar
Offensive or defensive, this card does it both. Sometimes you need a lot of creatures to get damage through and sometimes you need a lot of creatures to block with. I can’t think of creature that can do both so well as this.
MISC PERMANENTS
Lightning Greaves
Protects whats important, and gives haste for added value to the likes of Sun Titan, Teneb and Primeval Titan.
True Conviction
Sometimes you need life, and this is the best way to get a lot of it in a deck with lots of creatures. The fact that it can be a win con and turns almost any creature into a threat is just a bonus.
Phyrexian Altar
The deck is colored mana intensive so this can enable some serious ramp, especially into an early mass removal if needed. It’s really here because it’s a free sac outlet that can enable infinite colored mana and combos with Reveillark and Karmic Guide.
DRAW
Harmonize
Three cards for four mana. Deal.
Sensei’s Divining Top
Just too good. I don’t think I can say anything else new.
Skullclamp
Cheap draw. With all the creatures dying it just makes sense.
Greater Good
A sac outlet with good draw, and it can fill your graveyard. Works best with fatties which there is a good amount of. Really piss people off by sacking those fatties to it before you wrath. Can be the best source of draw during a game which leads to a win.
Phyrexian Arena
One of my favorite early game plays, and if your opponents are smart, public enemy number one. Sun Titan brings it back. Score!
Decree of Pain
Yes it’s also removal, but it’s included mainly because it often provides an insane amount of draw on top of that late game, which sometimes is needed. This card once resolved will often either seal the deal or turn the game around in your favor.
RECURSION
Eternal Witness
Brings anything back to your hand. Repeated uses via Sun Titan and Reveillark. Draws cards install off of Skullclamp. Yeah there is a reason why this is at the top of green’s auto-include list.
Living Death
Doubles as removal, sacrifice removal, which is the best kind. In this deck the recursion will often benefit you more than other decks since almost every creature is worth its weight in its come into play ability.
Sun Titan
An auto include if you’re playing white in my opinion. Works well with so many permanents and it’s a backbone to the strategy of the deck.
Karmic Guide
Not much I can say new here either. Part of the Reveillark combo.
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Removal and recursion in one. Like Living Death but with a body. Like the Titans the longer this stays around the more victory is certain.
Saffi Eriksdotter
Cheaply and instantly enables any of those enter the battlefield triggers. Gets crazy with Sun Titan and Reveillark.
Grave Betrayal
Expensive? Yes. But it can be cheated into play with Academy Rector. Regardless it’s worth the risk in this deck due to the plethora of value gained by stealing a lot of your opponents creatures. With all the spot removal and mass removal this card can get insane and bring concessions real quick.
Life from the Loam
Mana is needed. Colored mana especially. This brings back those 6 fetchlands to ensure you keep playing those spells. It also gets back the most important land cards, Cabal Coffers and Urborg. Those enable big mana, but also tend to get destroyed a lot. Big mana is so important that a dedicated way to get it back is needed.
Reveillark
Combo piece and a backbone of the recursion. Two for one is what attrition is all about.
Genesis
Sometimes all you have is mana, especially with all the removal you’re playing. This gives you something useful play.
Crime // Punishment
Stealing a creature like that Consecrated Sphinx you just blew up is nice. Stealing Mana Reflection can be just as nice. If there is nothing good to recur, there is probably lots of things that can be blown up. Also wrecks tokens.
TUTORS
Green Sun’s Zenith
Green creature into play for one G more. Yeah that’s really, really good.
Rune-Scarred Demon
Demonic Tutor on a 6/6 flying body, that in this deck is easily reacrruable. Yes please.
Academy Rector
Cheats in draw, a sac outlet, life or recursion. Any one of those is needed no matter the board state.
Fierce Empath
Tutors up needed mid to late game creatures. Brought back with Reveillark and Sun Titan, draws cards off Skullclamp. Eternal witness is to recursion as Fierce Empath is to tutors.
Demonic Tutor
Surprised?
Tooth and Nail
In this deck it’s used to really bring the permanent destruction pain. Either through bring creatures into play that bring other stuff back or by blowing up opponents stuff. Either way, your board is getting relatively bigger compared to your opponents. And that’s all that matters.
Birthing Pod
A sac outlet and tutor into play all in one. It’s reusable and relatively cheap to activate.
Scapeshift
Another Primeval Titan substitute. Can fetch up any of those lands needed, and the ones sacked can be brought back with Life from the Loam or Sun Titan so it's drawback is not always that bad. Combined with Avenger of Zendikar it can allow it to swing for some massive game ending damage.
Primal Command
Does a little bit of everything, but is mainly included for it's tutor option and graveyard shuffle, which can protect your yard or mess someone's up. The life gain and permanent control are sometimes useful when one of the two main choices are not needed.
TARGETED REMOVAL
Archon of Justice
Deals with indestructible permanents like Darksteel Forge. Is a flying blocker and rattlesnake. A decent Greater Good target and an even better target for Birthing Pod!
Harmonic Sliver
Come into play artifact and enchantment removal. Works with Skullclamp and can be brought back with Reveillark and Sun Titan for repeated use.
Woodfall Primus
One of the big boys. Get’s along very well with Greater Good.
Swords to Plowshares
Sometimes you don’t have time to remove something on your turn. Instantly get rid of a problem creature.
Acidic Slime
Like Swords to Plowshares but for anything. I included this specifically for things like Torpor Orb which can shut down this deck.
Necrotic Sliver
More expensive than vindicate to get a first use, but easily reusable thanks to Reveillark and Sunt Titan.
Angel of Despair
Vindicate on a big flying body.
Terastodon
The big boy. Saves the day getting rid of lots of combo pieces, or you can be extra mean and mana-screw someone.
Duplicant
Here to get rid of things like Iona. Brought back with Reveillark.
MASS REMOVAL
Black Sun’s Zenith
Get’s around indestructible and shroud. This deck makes a lot of mana quick so it can deal with even the biggest baddest creatures.
Sunblast Angel
Wrath on a stick, but this one can be tutored into play via Tooth and Nail when you have no tutor for a wrath.
Curse of the Cabal
Very expensive but very brutal against certain decks. Those decks with lots of indestructible permanents and combo pieces that are accomplishing the same thing this deck is trying to do. If you find yourself in an attrition war with someone and you’re not winning this can’t take them out. Just watch out for the blue and red players with their Wild Richotet’s and Redirect’s! This spell will destroy this deck in most instances.
Austere Command
Versatile, versatile and versatile.
Novablast Wurm
Another board wipe on a stick. This one is repeatable and can be a wincon. I love it.
Wrath of God
Cheap and effective. Yes sometimes you need to cast it turn 4!
Damnation
Wrath of God number two.
Akroma’s Vengeance
Gets rid of every permanent besides land and planeswalkers. Good enough!
Planar Cleansing
The blow up everything but land card.
CHANGE LOG
11/13/2012
OUT
IN
1/23/2012
OUT
Life's Finale
Armageddon
Debtors' Knell
Swamp
Vampiric Tutor
IN
Reap and Sow
Grave Betrayal
Bojuka Bog
Primal Command
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
Welcome to the EDH format. You'll be doing a lot of that. There are over 20,000 different cards in print, and you get to pick only 60 of them.
Might I suggest playing a few more spells that reanimate some of your opponents' things after you blow them up? Seems a little counter-productive to play your stuff, blow it up, and then recur it. I'd try something like Geth, Chainer, or Beacon of Unrest.
Heh. Thanks. I've been playing EDH since June, and have four decks together already. This is my first deck and I've been fine tuning it ever since its inception. I guess what I was trying to say is that I thought it would get easier to fine tune the deck as time went on, but it has been just the opposite!
Besides Teneb and Debtor's Knell I don't have a way to steal anything from their graveyards and that is a good point, however I didn't think your suggestions were the best additions to the deck, but it did remind me of one card that I had to cut that would be a perfect addition. Puppeteer Clique. It's a creature, which in my deck can get many uses, not including it's own built in ability, persist. Flying always helps, and along with the haste it gives their creature it can be a game winner. It's also recurable with Reveillark. I think it's perfect.
I took out a few weaker cards to add in some more ramping creatures, along with Glory.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
P-Clique is quite good, however, it is a 3/2 non-Larkable creature.
Don't sleep on Geth. He's really nutty, and he only gets better as the game goes on.
My whole goal for this deck is to get use out of most of my creatures either when they come into play or get killed, either by me or them. That way I don't feel so bad about killing my own stuff when I take their out too, and chances are I'll be getting stuff back a lot easier than they will. Also putting in a bunch of creatures that make them think twice about attacking me also keep me in the game longer so I can take everyone out. Putting my opponents into a no-win situation with a lot of my creatures presence is my goal.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
One other thing to note: I saw a list by MoltenShark on these forums that featured a Fierce Empath package that included several Titans and a Geth. I might be converting a part of my deck to a similar package, in which case Geth would probably be just as good as P-Clique, if not better. That's about the only reason I can think of to not run the Clique.
As for your deck, and most other Teneb decks out there, your biggest weakness will be graveyard haters. The problem I've noticed is that they are usually very cheap to include, and very difficult to get around. Furthermore, a lot of subtle but effective grave-haters have been printed recently, like Bojuka Bog and Relic of Progenitus and Nihil Spellbomb. You either need Stifle-effects, self-shrouds like Ivory Mask, or something like Brown Ouphe to stop them.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
Mr. Shark is a wise man, and he makes a valid point. There are so many awesome things about Geth that the P-Clique just doesn't have...and he's managed to highlight all of them. Don't sleep on the artifact recursion either, that is a rare ability.
On that note, I'm gonna put my Geth into my Teneb list over P-Clique tonight.
+Volrath's Stronghold
+True Conviction
+Rout
+Seedguide Ash
Volrath's Stronghold should have been an auto-include from the beginning. I picked it up and it was well worth the price. I took out Temple of the False God for it. The temple screwed me more times than it helped and I added more late gain mana acceleration to make up for it.
True Conviciton was an interesting choice. Before I totally redisigned this deck I had multiple creatures that had lifelink. Baneslayer Angel, Felidar Sovereign and most recently Phantom Nishoba. With my playgroup usually ganging up on me and a lot of my cards hurting me throughout the game, it is needed. Now my deck no longer relies on creatures with lifelink, but now I have two cards that can give any creature lifelink and I think that works a lot better since I am wiping the board a lot. Enchantments are harder to get rid of. Behemoth Sledge is my other life gaining card wich is great since it can be brought back with Sun Titan. True Conviction also can be cheated/tutored into play.
Rout is a card I'm trying out. I took out some spot removal for it since it's can be instant speed mass removal. Haven't used it much to have a good opinion on it.
Seedguide Ash is my late game mana acceleration. This deck is mana hungry late game and I often find myself wanting to cast a combonation of spells costing over 10 mana total, or I have trouble getting the last few mana for a game finisher like Tooth and Nail. This card helps with all that and fits the creature requirement for my deck. It better do something when it comes in or dies.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
If you like spike feeder, you might like Spore Frog to go along with your genesis.
Phyrexian Reclamation and Tortured Existence is more recursion that lowers your curve, and i would argue to replace sheoldred and debtor's knell with them.
True conviction is strong, but its a horrible topdeck when you need to gain life and you either cant afford to attack or dont have a creature.
Pelakka Wurm is a great creature to reccur, gains life, draws card, and trample is relevant in a format where chump blockers are everywhere.
Miren, the Moaning Well is another great way to gain life off of used etb triggers that you might want to reccur.
Wurmcoil Engine is my favorite of the bunch
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Good call on Ondu Giant. Totally going to replace him with Farhaven Elf. I still like Seedguide because he gets any land, is a rattlesnake and works well with Greater Good and Birthing Pod.
Those two enchantments are good, but I don't think I have room for them. Debtors' Knell and Sheoldred both put creatures into play without paying the cost, and unanswered win the game often in this deck. Even answered if they live for a bit they are still worth it.
True Conviction has always been a reliable way to get a bunch of life in the deck, and is a win condition.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
True conviction isnt a win condition, on its own its a dead card that doesnt affect the board start unless you have creatures in play. In long games of attrition where you meet topdeck mode I feel like often times you'll wish it was a creature that gained life instead.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
True Conviction absolutely can be a win con. Often with the amount of recursion I build up a good sized army that can't win by attacking that turn, but can with true conviction. Without it, it might take two turn or more, and late game there is just too many way for opponents to make a comeback with something like Insurrection, stack manipulation or direct burn, all of which this deck is very weak against. Top decking it without creatures sucks, but so do a lot of cards, and I've never found it being a burdensom card to draw or find myself struggling to get something good off the top of the deck. The recursion and draw typical ensure that unless you come across a lot of discard and graveyard removal.
I've changed up the deck a bit with some new inclusions. I found playing online that graveyard removal of opponents was needed more than I was prepared for, so I added two cards to deal with that. Overall the deck has been preforming extremely well, especially against decks without heavy blue/counters. Almost 90% win ratio in 3-4 player games against the non-blue decks, and probably down to 75% with them, but that's because I aggressively go against them preventing them from getting too much mana to ruin my day.
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG