I am currently in the process of rewriting the entire primer. I should have this up an running within two weeks, given my current schedule. Until then please bear with me until I can this completed.
Welcome to the primer for L.E.D. Skithiryx. This primer will present possibly the most aggressive deck possible within the confines of Mono-Black. Skithiryx himself is like a surgical razor that can take out unsuspecting players before they get to the point where they are able to defend themselves. This deck is all about POWER and will do anything and everything in order to obtain that power—even spilling its own blood until the brink of death.
This is an expensive list. I realize that this is prohibitive for some people however I would not even bother playing the deck without Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Mana Crypt and L.E.D. They really make the deck what it is and the entire philosophy of the deck cannot come together without their inclusion. One means of circumventing this is through the creation of your own custom art proxies. Details for doing so can be found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=203629.
Make note that by playing this deck, you're accepting that you enjoy being the aggressor and in many senses the “boogie man” at the table. You're going to be dictating the pace of the game and many people will try to stop you from the get-go just because of the general you're playing. This can be a fun position but some people feel like it turns the game into a game of archenemy. If you feel this way, the deck isn't for you.
With that said welcome to the Primer on multiplayer L.E.D Skithiryx! As always, I'm open to suggestions. Please leave comments and questions in this thread and I'll reply ASAP.
Sincerely,
Rishana
Is Infect Overpowered In EDH?
Is infect broken in EDH? This question has sparked all sorts of drama, arguments, flaming etc. across these boards. Allow me to try and definitively answer the question based on hundreds and hundreds of games. Infect is an extremely powerful mechanic in EDH such that many people have called for the raising of the poison counters require to kill a player to 15 or even 20 in some cases. However, Infect as a mechanic (with the exception of a handful of cards) requires creatures to do the lion's share of the work in poisoning a player, even when proliferation is the intended means of raising a player's poison counters to ten. Most of the creatures bearing Infect are extremely sub-par and bring nothing to the table outside of their status as Infect creatures. The exceptions to this are Skithiryx and Blightsteel Colossus.
As infecters are mainly creatures, they are the simplest permanent in a game of EDH to deal with. Every deck should have a means of interacting with creatures such that no one should feel completely unable to fight back against an aggressive infect list. Compared to some of the major combo's in EDH that require one to be able to interact on the stack or simply lose, Infect is quite easy to deal with. Time stretch piloted by a Riku player is infinitely more devastating than anything Infect could hope to do.
The general logic behind the infect as an overpowered mechanic is that ten poison counters = death in twenty life Magic so in a format where life totals are doubled, then the amount of poison to kill a player should be too. Likewise, people feel that they should not be under such pressure by creatures early on in an EDH game since the life totals were double specifically to encourage long games. However, what they don't realize is that other aggro generals kill just as quickly as Skithiryx. Rafiq, Uril and even now the new Maelstrom Wanderer all kill just as quickly as Skithiryx without support as well as giving access to multiple colors.
What people feel is overpowered is actually quick combat kills in EDH and they see Infect as being the cause when in reality, it is no more overpowered than the other combat oriented Voltron generals in the format and no where near as powerful as something like hermit druid, Zur, Arcum, Azami etc.
Who Will Enjoy Playing this Deck?
This deck certainly isn't for everyone. There are a lot of things about it that may seem unappealing to some people. You will enjoy playing this deck if:
-You like and value pro-activity and don't mind trading some consistency for potential power.
-You prefer to play the role of aggressor and set the pace of the game.
-You find combo wins to be cheap and cheesy and prefer the redzone.
-You enjoy tutoring and having access to your whole deck on a whim.
-You don't believe taking a player out of the game is a bad thing.
-You seek to play more Magic in a game of EDH rather than stop your opponent from playing.
-You don't think Infect is broken, douchy etc.
Vampire Hexmage is an extremely versatile card that can serve as an early aggressor with a Sword or other potent equipment or it can take out enemy planeswalkers and other counter relevant permanents. However her greatest strength lies in the infamous Dark Depth's combo. Marit Lage is hard for some decks to answer and even the ones that do require a sacrifice or exile effect in hand before the two turn clock ends their life.
Xiahou Dun the One-Eyed
Ah Xiahou Dun... This guy is possibly one of the best creatures ever printer for mono-Black. He is infinitely versatile. He can recur a tutor when you need it. He can recur a disenchanted Necropotence or a cast Promise of power. He can be looped with Profane Commands. In addition to being a regrowth on legs, he can also pick up equipment and swing uncontested into the redzone. With a Grafted Exoskeleton, he becomes a two turn unblockable clock. Add a Lashwrite for added fun.
Graveborn Muse
Most mono-Black players agree that Phyrexian Arena is a good card and many would argue that it's an auto-include. What's better for a voltron deck that wants to attack? An Arena on legs! Add a Grave Titan for absurd card advantage—just be careful not to die!
Note: Three power + Grafted Exoskeleton = Two turn clock!
Solemn Simularcrum
Ah everyone's favorite emo robot... Sad Robot is ramp, card advantaged and perfectly costed for the four-drop into Sword play. Playing him on turn two puts you so far ahead that it leaves everyone else struggling to keep up.
Bloodgift Demon
We've already established that Graveborn Muse is amazing. For one more mana we get +2/+1 and Flying and the occasional ability to knock out an opponent at one life. The demon is a wonderful turn two play after a turn one Mana Vault.
Precursor Golem
A lot of people don't like Precursor Golem. They say that while it combo's with Tainted Strike for a one-shot, on its own its lackluster. I couldn't disagree more. Precursor Golem represents a whopping NINE power for FIVE mana with the added bonus of dodging edict effect removal and getting really crazy really quick with Nim Deathmantle.
A turn two Precursor Golem is entirely possible. Given no other changes on the board, by turn six one player is already DEAD. In addition to being a huge threat in and of itself, players are force into peculiar situations when deciding whether to block or not because the danger of eating a Tainted Strike are always there.
Grave Titan
Really this guy is a boss... Ten power for six mana that creates an insane board presence is just too good to pass up. Grave Titan is a wonderful play to run out before dropping Skithryx for the first time. He demands to be answered so either he draws out removal people were holding for Skithiryx or he and his little friends bash some face and develop your board.
Even if he is answered, his minions stick around to continue to the hunt for brains. They can pick up equipment, jump in the way to save some damage etc. Combine with Graveborn Muse for lots of fun!
Steel Hellkite
It's no surprise that mono-Black has trouble dealing with Enchantments and Artifacts. In a deck so jam-packed with ramp, tutors, draw and threats, there's little room for the typical amounts for removal most more control oriented EDH decks run. Steel Hellkite is both a massive threat and an answer to all of those troubling problems that mono-Black usually cannot deal with.
An early Steel Hellkite can take control of the game in a way that few other creatures can by eating other players early accelerators ensuring that you maintain in control of the game. He also single-handedly demolishes token swarms. For added fun, try Sculpting Steeling him or pouring all of that mana from Cabal Coffers into his fire breathing.
Nirkana Revenant
A lot of people are enamored with mana doublers in mono-Black. In addition Cabal Coffers, which should be in every mono-Black deck, I see many lists running Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power and Caged Sun! While these are all stellar cards, mono-Black has a plethora of absolutely amazing non-basic lands such as Volrath's Stronghold, Shizo, Phyrexian Tower. Each additional non-basic detracts from the potency of the artifact mana doublers which all depend on basic lands.
Nirkana has a quite relevant clause in her text which is missing in the artifact doublers. “Whenever you tap a Swamp for mana, add B to your mana pool (in addition to the mana the land produces). “ What this means is that with Urborg out, your Strip Mine, Maze of Ith etc. all tap for BB. Hell, Coffers taps for [Swamp Count] + B. Nirkana also goes much better with all of the ramp that the deck is running and brings a board presence to boot. Like Precursor Golem, players must be weary of letting Nirkana connect if they don't want to eat a tainted strike and five +1/+1 activations.
Rune-Scared Demon
Tutors are good. Tutors that beat face are better. Rune-Scared Demon can go fetch his own Grafted Exoskeleton or Glistening Oil to turn himself into a two turn clock. While Rune-Scared Demon might be overly expensive in a normal control build, with the amount of ramp this deck packs, it's simple to power him out and take advantage of that which he brings with him. Good targets are the aforementioned poison enablers, Sword of Fear and Famine, Cabal Coffers and Nim Deathmantle—the latter of which allows you to continually tutor to your hearts content.
Ulamog, the Infiite Gyre
Topping out the curve, Ulamog represents all that is beastly and mean in a threat. Players are force to answer him quickly or be annihilated. However, Ulamog's indestructibility ensures that he is quite hard to answer once he has hit the board. His ten power is perfect for giving him the Infect mechanic. And while eleven mana is heafty, it's not outside the range of this decks ramping capabilities. More often than not however, Ulamog shows up late game once removal is spent and closes the game.
As for Ulamog's on-cast trigger, is yet another means of dealing with pesky enchantments, artifacts planeswalkers and lands. His graveyard trigger is actually something I look at as a drawback . A late-game Yawgmoth's Will is often a play that can takes this deck from a losing scenario to a backbreaking board position. However, Ulamog's indestructibility usually prevents this from happening as the primary means of dealing with him are effects that exile.
Tutors
Running 7 hard tutors may seem like a lot but to be honest, I wish there were more good, reliable tutors available. For a while I was running the transmute engine and for a slower build of the deck, I definitely recommended them. With the shift to L.E.D focus however, they are just too slow. Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Grim Tutor should be self-explanatory. Diabolic Tutor, Demonic Increasing Ambition and Beseech the Queen however require a little more justification. Diabolic Tutor is in many ways simply a worse Demonic Tutor. Given the frequency that the deck jumps from two to four mana, its not that slow. Increasing Ambition can be played again via flashback to set up insurmountable advantage. Finally Beseech the Queen, acts as a second Grim Tutor with the drawback of having to have land in play to get what you really want.
As for why the deck runs so many tutors? Well tutors are the type of of card that are most in line with the “answer players” philosophy that this deck ascribes to. They also allow me to get away with running very few answer spells, though the answers I do run handle all types of permanents (Ulamog, Karn etc.) This type of play style would not be possible without this extensive amount of tutors.
Hello! I enjoy playing Skithiryx, and I had a couple questions for you.
How good have you found Precursor Golem and Tainted Strike to be? They're a combo together, but fairly easily disrupted; and there's little else that good to Tainted Strike in the deck.
The only thing I don't understand is how Lions Eye Diamond made the deck viable. I don't see why it would be bad without it. Obviously any kind of acceleration is going to help, but not having LED far from crushes the deck.
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Thanks for your replies. The deck has gone through significant evolutions since I first posted the deck list and I will get around to fixing the primer when I have time. I originally thought that to maximize LED I should run the transmute tutor package in addition to the normal tutor list I run. However, given the way that the deck plays out, this prove to be slow. The engine has been scrapped and in its place I've added both Ancient Craving and Ambition's Cost as well as Rune-Scarred Demon
The deck was excelling at ramping into big mana quickly but had relatively little means of utilizing 10 or more mana in a single turn. To this end, I've added Army of the Damned and Ulamog—two card that simply win the game if left unanswered.
How good have you found Precursor Golem and Tainted Strike to be? They're a combo together, but fairly easily disrupted; and there's little else that good to Tainted Strike in the deck.
Both Precursor Golem and Tainted Strike are amazing stand alone cards in this deck. Precursor Golem is essentially nine power for a mere five mana. Given the ability of this deck to produce mana quickly, that can happen on turn two quite regularly. Four turns late, someone is quite close to being dead. It's also a threat that simply can't be ignored because of Tainted Strike.
Tainted Strike on the other hand combines well with all creatures in every deck in the game so long as they are entering the redzone for at least one damage. Routinely people will take five or six damage without batting an eye. With tainted strike you can capitalize on this, untap and finish people off with Skithiryx. Even poisoning someone fore a mere two damage, you're shortening the time it takes to kill by a whole turn.
The only thing I don't understand is how Lions Eye Diamond made the deck viable. I don't see why it would be bad without it. Obviously any kind of acceleration is going to help, but not having LED far from crushes the deck.
You're right. The deck functions perfectly without LED. LED represents a mentality shift in the basic fundamental ideology of the deck. Once LED joined the deck, so too did Lotus Petal etc. Cards that required themselves to be held in hand such as Imp's Mischief were replaced and the deck transformed into a deck that tried to play its hand out every turn.
I love this deck idea so much, it's just so unfortunate that the key cards (aka tutors) are now $200, and $800 respectivly. I just wish this weren't true cause this deck looks like so much fun.
Thanks for the love! I appreciate it. I really need to get around to making this into a better primer with explanations of the card choices. I know the list is really expensive but you can alleviate some of the cost by making high quality custom art proxies. While I do own the whole deck, check out these!
That's beautiful, I think I may in fact do this, since I really would love to play this deck (also congrats on the recent price jump on seal--up to $900 now *sigh*) I do actually have some constructive questions for your deck too:
First question is pretty simple: would you consider this a competitive deck? Next up, what's the decision against running Grafted Wargear seems like it's just +3 poison every time you get Skithiryx into play. I'd also like to hear why you've chosen to omit sword of fire and ice. I would think this deck would love the CA it generates, or better put, why have you picked the swords you picked?
I've actually taken Sorin Markov out of my list due to a reliance on killing with poison, but you actually include a fair few ways to hammer the damage home normally.
I'm skeptical of Army of the Damned however, as it seems like a very large mana investment for no immediate effect on the board. While it does generate 26 power, they enter tapped while also inciting attention from the table.
Question for you: how do you handle fog effects? The players I play with have started to respect the beat down enough to include repeatable, difficult to disrupt fog cards such as Moment's Peace that put me in a really awkward position when I attack "for the win."
I don't really want to include any of the "I win" buttons like the Leyline/Helm combo if I can avoid it, but it's frustrating when the three other players at the table all have enough fog to keep me at bay indefinitely.
Is it worth omitting other playable infect creatures in favor of alternate win conditions? For example is Ulamog really better than Plague Stinger or Phyrexian Vatmother? These seem to support your aggressive strategy better.
In your current build one piece of equipment you may want to look into is Shuko. It costs 1 to cast, equips for free and turns Skithiryx into a 2 turn clock. It also works well with other cheap infect creatures.
When I play aggro in Commander I'm very careful about putting in too many expensive cards. You really want to aggressively curve out every game. Running ramp is fine but the focus of the ramp should be ramping you up to 5 or maybe 7. If you find that you're wanting to put in hugely expensive spells like ulamog it's likely that you have too much ramp and that can be scaled back for more cheap threats. Your commander is your curve topper, anything more expensive than that really needs to be absurd to get a spot.
This is probably the best build for this deck I have seen yet. It still has the inherent problem of what you do when your skithyrix gets stolen. Any thoughts ? Perhaps homeward path could help
I've actually taken Sorin Markov out of my list due to a reliance on killing with poison, but you actually include a fair few ways to hammer the damage home normally.
Testing has shown that being able to capitalize on other players damage and/or bloody the waters so that other players can take them out. Think of the following scenario. Turn 2-3 Grave Titan followed by a Sorin setting someone in lethal range for the zombie horde. This deck does it regularly. Likewise an early Sorin doesn't need to just put someone to 10. Often times Sorin can add some much needed life gain as well as check small creatures and/or low toughness generals.
I'm skeptical of Army of the Damned however, as it seems like a very large mana investment for no immediate effect on the board. While it does generate 26 power, they enter tapped while also inciting attention from the table.
I've never lost a game that Army resolved. Those guys just KILL people. As for attracting the entire table, I do that when I sit down and show my general... If that doesn't do it, the fact that I'm at eight mana by turn three usually does.
Question for you: how do you handle fog effects? The players I play with have started to respect the beat down enough to include repeatable, difficult to disrupt fog cards such as Moment's Peace that put me in a really awkward position when I attack "for the win."
I guess I don't... I haven't encountered this. I play mostly online since I live in Japan and Japanese players seem to think EDH= Vintage and try to combo out ASAP. I don't develop my deck to win vs. people meta-gamed against me... I'd probably just switch up the deck if this happened to me over and over as it is essentially trolling.
I don't really want to include any of the "I win" buttons like the Leyline/Helm combo if I can avoid it, but it's frustrating when the three other players at the table all have enough fog to keep me at bay indefinitely.
I too am against such forms of “I Win” including infinite mana, which is why you'll see no rings + temple combo etc. in my list. I also don't like to play strategies that try to take away other peoples ability to play the game. I believe in trying to play MORE magic than other players in EDH rather than stopping them from playing the game.
Is it worth omitting other playable infect creatures in favor of alternate win conditions? For example is Ulamog really better than Plague Stinger or Phyrexian Vatmother? These seem to support your aggressive strategy better.
Absolutely. All threats need to be weight against Skithiryx in terms of potency. Early on (as in before six mana) I'm spending all of my mana on ramp or card draw. Doing so sets me up for a win much more so than early aggression via other infect creatures would. All of the creatures currently in the deck fit into two catagories: Card advantage/Utility creature or more potent threats than Skithiryx. It's a far better option to run more potent non-Infect creatures and give them Infect via other cards like Glistening Oil and Tainted Strike.
In your current build one piece of equipment you may want to look into is Shuko. It costs 1 to cast, equips for free and turns Skithiryx into a 2 turn clock. It also works well with other cheap infect creatures.
I have tested it and found it to be quite lackluster given that I don't run any other Infect creatures. While it is good on Skithiryx, it Is quite poor on all of the other creatures. Any of the sword turn Skithiryx into a two turn clock as well however they offer other bonuses. I expect bigger things from my equipment.
When I play aggro in Commander I'm very careful about putting in too many expensive cards. You really want to aggressively curve out every game. Running ramp is fine but the focus of the ramp should be ramping you up to 5 or maybe 7. If you find that you're wanting to put in hugely expensive spells like ulamog it's likely that you have too much ramp and that can be scaled back for more cheap threats. Your commander is your curve topper, anything more expensive than that really needs to be absurd to get a spot.
While I agree that it is important to keep your CMC low in aggro EDH, I think that cheap threats simply don't get the job done. I think good aggro in EDH is all about ramping into hyper bombs quicker than your opponent can and slamming threats that need to be dealt with NOW (Ulamog, Army of the Damned, Marit Lage etc.) before your opponents are ready to deal with them.
This is probably the best build for this deck I have seen yet. It still has the inherent problem of what you do when your skithyrix gets stolen. Any thoughts ? Perhaps homeward path could help
I already run Phyrexian Tower as a sac outlet. I'll be honest though, I usually just try to kill the blue player before he can steal Skithiryx. Homeward path is nice but not something I'd preemptively blow a tutor on so it ends up being I have it or I don't senario. I'm already concerned about the swamp count. Where would you fit it in?
If you have a cheap source of tokens (say bitterblossom) then helm of possession would be a good option.
Bittrbloosom and friends (bloodghast and reassembling skeleton) are useful but adding them to the deck pushes things into a much more control-oriented build. To add those and NOT add Contamination and Infernal Darkness (as well as Skullclamp) would just be sinful as far as I'm concerned. Definitely powerful but not the direction the deck seeks to go in.
Yeah I can see the appeal of alternate win conditions if the dragon isn't able to get the job done. I just prefer all in style aggro I guess. Either way you go though I think you should be running Infernal Darkness in your build. It's a crushingly powerful tool for monoblack and unlike Contamination (which is bad) it doesn't require additional support and doesn't make Cabal Coffers crappy.
First question is pretty simple: would you consider this a competitive deck? Next up, what's the decision against running Grafted Wargear seems like it's just +3 poison every time you get Skithiryx into play. I'd also like to hear why you've chosen to omit sword of fire and ice. I would think this deck would love the CA it generates, or better put, why have you picked the swords you picked?
Sorry I just realized I never got around to replying to this inquiry. Let's start with explaining the choice to omit the Grafted Wargear. While the Wargear is quite amazing on Skithiryx, much like my explanation for the lack of Shuko in response to Donald, Grafted Wargear just doesn't do enough for non-Skithiryx creatures. If I want to play a risky equipment, I'd use Grafted Exoskeleton which I do find worth the risk.
As for the choice of swords, I had originally included all four of the swords. When LED was unbanned and I needed to look for deck space, I notice I had way more equipment than the number of creatures I had. I decided to go with Feast and Famine because it is all powerful and War and Peace because it can turn little creatures into nightmares and supplied life gain. War and Peace in practice hasn't been doing what I wanted. I've since swapped that and Mimic Vat for Sword of Light and Shadow as well as Sword of Fire and Ice. This offers me all protections while only doubling up on pro-black, which isn't a bad thing at all.
Yeah I can see the appeal of alternate win conditions if the dragon isn't able to get the job done. I just prefer all in style aggro I guess. Either way you go though I think you should be running Infernal Darkness in your build. It's a crushingly powerful tool for monoblack and unlike Contamination (which is bad) it doesn't require additional support and doesn't make Cabal Coffers crappy
I don't deny that it's powerful but I really hate locking other players out of the game. I think it also tends to take the deck in a different direction if we start going dirty. Myojin, Mindslaver etc.
I still think the deck could be sped up some to kill more consistently before people are able to defend themselves. Possible inclusions would be Hatred, more ramp (Bubbling Muck and maybe 2cc mana rocks), cutting Ambitions Cost & Ancient Craving for Night's Whisper & Sign in Blood and Ill-Gotten Gains & Insidious Dreamsover a couple of the transmute tutors or Liliana Vess.
With proper mulliganing and tutoring, you should be casting Skithiryx by turn three most games. Adding more ramp could only speed this up by a turn or so at best at the cost of consistency. Hatred is a card everyone suggests in Skithiryx but in practice it is absolutely terrible. Usually games play out in a manner where I cast Skithiryx with haste and attack for four. The next turn I equip and finish off. If we imagine Hatred instead of a sword, in this scenario we would only need to pay a mere two life. In the case we want to one-shot, then both Nightmare Lash and Lashwrite get the job done and Nightmare lash doesn't even make the cut for me!
Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper are nice cards but we are jumping from 1-4 mana via mana crypt, Sol Ring etc. Rarely are we going to be casting 2 CMC spells and these just don't give enough benefit per card to warrant their inclusion as far as I have seen in testing.
I don't deny that it's powerful but I really hate locking other players out of the game. I think it also tends to take the deck in a different direction if we start going dirty. Myojin, Mindslaver etc.
I guess I just don't see it as inherently dirty, at least not dirtier than trying to ramp out Skithiryx and kill someone on turn 6. The Myojin fits very well with what you're trying to do with the deck as well...maybe you could have a section of optional cards for people who want a fully optimized build for cutthroat games? I mean killing them quickly locks them out of the game too.
With proper mulliganing and tutoring, you should be casting Skithiryx by turn three most games. Adding more ramp could only speed this up by a turn or so at best at the cost of consistency. Hatred is a card everyone suggests in Skithiryx but in practice it is absolutely terrible. Usually games play out in a manner where I cast Skithiryx with haste and attack for four. The next turn I equip and finish off. If we imagine Hatred instead of a sword, in this scenario we would only need to pay a mere two life. In the case we want to one-shot, then both Nightmare Lash and Lashwrite get the job done and Nightmare lash doesn't even make the cut for me!
I'm a little confused as to how games are regularly playing out with this deck. You stated that you're usually casting Skithiryx on turn 3, with haste and an equipment in hand. I can't help but feel this is an overexageration even with ramp and tutors and I'm also a little surprised people are consistently unable to deal with Skithiryx by this stage of the game and if this is in fact the case then I still do not see the need to run alternate finishers over infect creatures.
Adding in more ramp will make this strategy more consistent not less consistent as you will more consistently have enough early ramp for this to be possible. Some notable exclusions from your list also include Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond & Worn Powerstone and I'd imagine that you're pretty close to being able to run Voltaic Key as a ramper.
Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper are nice cards but we are jumping from 1-4 mana via mana crypt, Sol Ring etc. Rarely are we going to be casting 2 CMC spells and these just don't give enough benefit per card to warrant their inclusion as far as I have seen in testing.
I always prefer cheaper spells when possible. They're useful earlier in the game because they're cheaper to cast and later on they're still good because you can cast multiple cheap spells per turn instead of 1 big jumbo spell that was useless until later on. It makes your deck more resilient to counters, mass land destruction and even spot removal since you're playing out multiple smaller threats instead of 1 big one. The downside of course is this requires more cards but monoblack has excellent draw power to support this. My monoblack list is extremely controlling and very slow and even there I cut Ancient Craving a while back and have been very pleased with the 2 mana spells.
I guess I just don't see it as inherently dirty, at least not dirtier than trying to ramp out Skithiryx and kill someone on turn 6. The Myojin fits very well with what you're trying to do with the deck as well...maybe you could have a section of optional cards for people who want a fully optimized build for cutthroat games? I mean killing them quickly locks them out of the game too.
Perhaps you're right... I learned to love EDH in a playgroup that gathers at a all-you-can-eat pizza store in Tokyo. When we started our group, we were all pretty much in agreement with the philosophy that good games of EDH where when people tried to do more cooler stuff and the unfavorable games came from trying to stop people from doing their cool stuff. We didn't care if we were taken out because that meant we could go get pizza. We also ended up having quicker games because we didn't try to deny resources.
However, this is not the case with the rest of the EDH community. In fact, a lot of people look at powering out Skithiryx as a strategy that isn't fun where as the climate I learned to play in encouraged this type of battleship play. Personally I hate the feeling of being in a game but being without lines of play. However, in conversations with people I've come to learn that they see things quite differently as as such, how I feel is quite irrelevant.
I decided to add the Myojin after all. I cut the SoFI again, going back to a Feast and Famine and War and Peace package. I like these two as they are the most aggressively designed swords and the War and Peace gives me some breathing room on life. I've done 39 points to my face on far too many occasions to not feel a little naked without it.
As for cutthroat games, I put this deck at the highest pinnacle a deck can go without going into the zone of combo. Once infinite (or infinite enough) combos become involved, then I feel like things devolve into who can solitaire out quicker. If we are going to define cutthroat as the Zur, Azami, etc. level then I wouldn't even be playing the deck. It's entirely possible in EDH to combo out on turn two close to 100% of the time but I don't think that type of play is enjoyable.
In response to your earlier inquiry, I've been testing Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper vs. the two draw three four mana spells and have found that I like the four mana ones better after all. They fit better in the curve, do more in a single card when I'm looking to refill my hand and I feel much better cracking LED in response to their being cast.
I'm a little confused as to how games are regularly playing out with this deck. You stated that you're usually casting Skithiryx on turn 3, with haste and an equipment in hand. I can't help but feel this is an overexageration even with ramp and tutors and I'm also a little surprised people are consistently unable to deal with Skithiryx by this stage of the game and if this is in fact the case then I still do not see the need to run alternate finishers over infect creatures.
Often times prepared decks will have answers and that is what the other creatures in the deck do best—eat Skthiryx removal. Given the option, I much rather play Grave Titan turn three than Skithryx. Someone will have to answer the Titan or they will get rolled over. Once answers are played is the optimal time to cast Skithryx. The most threatening situation one can be in when facing this deck is to be in the mid-late game and having Skithiryx without a single death as his Haste will mean he will just keep coming back the next turn.
Adding in more ramp will make this strategy more consistent not less consistent as you will more consistently have enough early ramp for this to be possible. Some notable exclusions from your list also include Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond & Worn Powerstone and I'd imagine that you're pretty close to being able to run Voltaic Keyas a ramper.
Adding more ramp comes at a price. What do we cut? Tutors? Card draw? God forbid cutting land! The deck's already heavily reliant on proper use of the partial-paris. While Voltatic Key has been a reliable source of ramp, it is also relatively useless on its own. Unless I decide to run Mimic Vat and Contagion Engine again, I feel it doesn't do enough for its inclusion. As for the Mox, they are too risky. There are far too many KEEPABLE hands in this deck that have but a single land or a single black spell to pitch. They also are only a one mana acceleration which I don't see as worth it outside of Ancient Tomb. Worn Powerstone, while good is not good enough. I'd run Basalt Monolith over that.
How do you feel about Pithing Needle?
I run it in my build and it does some serious work. Stops everything from Maze of Ith to Helm of Obediance.
I've considered it before and I don't doubt its potency but I have tried to steer myself away from reactionary cards other than Damnation. All of the other answers can be played proactively so that the deck can continually empty its hand and draw via Necropotence and all of the other card draw.
I believe rasana intended to keep the deck from having a lot of hand disruption because he believes that people hes playing with should be able to play their cards. He goes into it a bit in this thread.
It seems like a much better fit for the deck. Consult for LED isn't that dangerous.
I am a little confused about some of the midrange and high end cards included. It seems to me if the game plan is Turn 1 tutor for LED, turn 2 Skithiryx and ride it to the win you would want more cards that maximize that plan. I really like the idea of Shuko and the War Gear.
If you don't want to run Hand disruption, something like Defense Grid might be helpful as well.
Woah who the heck cast resurrection on this thing? Let me first apologize for never getting around to finishing this. It's been a rough year. I've had several family members pass away and on top of that I've had to move four times due to room mate issues (don't live with girls you are dating).
I like your build and was wondering if Unspeakable Symbol could be a good addition as it costs only life to use. Also, why no Cruel Tutor?
Unspeakable Symbol is one of those cards that is REALLY good if you play a lot of Infect creatures and REALLY bad if you build most of the rest of the deck around traditional creatures. Riding everything on Skithiryx is asking for trouble and the deck already is very life hungry. I've done upwards of 30 to 40 points of damage to myself in a single game before!
Cruel tutor is a fine card and I played it a lot over the years but a three mana Imperial Seal has just been eclipsed by today's tutors. Were it not on top, I would consider it but there are just far to many things fighting for a slot to warrant it's conclusion now.
Rishana,
what do you think about adding: The Trident
Ok so there are basically three cards that I consider to be finishers—in other words cards that do two or more poison counters without combat. These are the Trident as you mention along with Contagion Engine and Caress of Phyrexia. Each of the three do the same thing essentially but all come with different conditions. Let's first look at each of these in a vacuum then decide if they are worth the slot.
Surestrike Trident: Requires Skithiryx to be in play and not eat removal in response to the equip. Having first strike and not needed to attack means that Skithiryx can stay home as a scary blocker that will leave a mark no matter what. The effect can be doubled by Rings of Brighthearth and essentially bypasses blockers. Would Whispersilk Cloak's shroud be more beneficial? It depends on your build.
Contagione Engne: Requires there to be at least one poison counter on a player before use. Extremely mana hungry. Also doubles as a wrath and can keep pesky generals like Akroma on the board but extremely weakened.
Caress of Phyrexia: The most efficient KO-Punch. Useless as an offensive spell until someone is at seven or more poison counters. Can double as a draw three spell for oneself in a pinch.
These three cards suffer from the same issues as the Symbol. Their efficacy increases as you add more infect elements to the deck. However, doing so decreases the overall card quality of the deck. I have personally chosen to play with more cards that are good alone such as Grave Titan than go all-in on Infect based damage. The reasons for doing so are many and would require an in depth analysis of the how games play out with the deck. If you're interested in hearing some theory, do let me know.
The new equipment Sai of the Shinobi seems like an excellent card in the deck. It increases the Skittles clock by a turn for essentially zero mana.
Again, the Sai suffers from the lack of usage outside of a dedicated Infect list. I tried Sword of the Chosen which essentially does the same thing once, and though it helped me kill quicker it was dead just as often.
What does reduce Skithiryx's clock by a turn that I am super excited about is the recently spoiled Cathedral of War. Exalted on a colorless land that shortens my kill by a turn? Yesplz.
I see a huge lack of targeted discard in the deck. In mono black it's really the only way to assure your threats will get through/not get destroyed.
When you sit down with Skithiryx you're signing up for a quasi 3-vs-1 situation. Targeted discard such as Duress is a 1-for-1 trade when you're facing a 3-vs-1. Even if I strip the blue mages counters, there is still the other two players who have removal of their own. Essentially it comes down to the philosophy that I cannot stop all disruption so to win, I need to play more Magic than my three opponents (most likely two due to how multiplayer politicking works) such that they do not have a chance to garner sufficient resources in time. Cavern of Souls has helped massively vs. the blue mages so realistic all that's left is to power out enough deadly force to overwhelm removal.
I believe rasana intended to keep the deck from having a lot of hand disruption because he believes that people hes playing with should be able to play their cards. He goes into it a bit in this thread.
When I started playing Skithiryx it was in a saga of EDH in which resources were sacred and the ideal game of EDH was to bash battleships against each other. The basic rational was that no one likes playing a game of Magic in which they are in a situation where they can't play. There were not as many decks playing i-Win cards back then. Due to the change in card pools, these once sacred cows cannot be justified as off limits anymore. Green ramp will crush you if you let it get all the lands it wants. Likewise, some things just win once resolved (looking at you G-Banned). Bringing elements of mass land destruction and mass discard back into the formant are a necessity to preserve the fun as they are the only ways to combat some of the emerging strategies that don't interact in the way decks of the past did.
I faced a lot of resistance from myself when I made the choice to include the black Myojin. I remember many a sour experience, often ending in a ragequit from members of my old real life playgroup. Since I've moved to playing online exclusively after having to sell my real life collection due to the constant moving I mentioned earlier, my philosophy has shifted and I now see it as a necessary evil. Especially in regards to G-Banned, Black Myojin is one of the one cards capable of dealing with a resolved Bargin on crack, assuming its in play already.
Is Demonic Collusion supposed to be Demonic Consultation?
Nope. It was demonic collusion. The slot was replaced by Increasing Ambitions and will soon be replaced by the new epic 5cc X tutor in order to best take advantage of the ungodly amounts of mana this list makes.
It seems like a much better fit for the deck. Consult for LED isn't that dangerous.
You're overestimating how crucial L.E.D is to the deck. I'm not trying to use L.E.D. Skthiryx early. Rarely is that a good plan. Usually it's popped in response to something like a tutor or Promise of Power. The best scenario is playing Demonic Tutor on turn one or two with LED in hand. Tutor, crack it, get Necropotence play it, draw 10.
I am a little confused about some of the midrange and high end cards included. It seems to me if the game plan is Turn 1 tutor for LED, turn 2 Skithiryx and ride it to the win you would want more cards that maximize that plan. I really like the idea of Shuko and the War Gear.
The deck skips the early and mid game and powers right into the 6-8 mana range. You're misunderstanding the goal of the deck. While there are times an early Skithiryx is good, often the best place you can be in is to have 10+ mana and a Skithiryx in the command zone that hasn't died. When removal is spent, the haste on everyone's favorite dragon ensures he's going to keep coming back until you're dead.
The goal of the deck is to play more Magic faster than the table is able to keep up. The deck is set up, if you will excuse the use of a metaphor, with a high chance to roll a critical strike. I admit there are times where I fail the roll and the deck struggles but I am OK with losing a few games here and there for the games I gain by having access to such quick power.
Still haven't been happy with any of the cards I've come up with thus far to replace Griselbrand... I'm thinking Death Cloud or Cathedral of War once M13 hits. Speaking of, I cannot wait to exchange the old Lilana for the new one.
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I am currently in the process of rewriting the entire primer. I should have this up an running within two weeks, given my current schedule. Until then please bear with me until I can this completed.
Welcome to the primer for L.E.D. Skithiryx. This primer will present possibly the most aggressive deck possible within the confines of Mono-Black. Skithiryx himself is like a surgical razor that can take out unsuspecting players before they get to the point where they are able to defend themselves. This deck is all about POWER and will do anything and everything in order to obtain that power—even spilling its own blood until the brink of death.
This is an expensive list. I realize that this is prohibitive for some people however I would not even bother playing the deck without Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Mana Crypt and L.E.D. They really make the deck what it is and the entire philosophy of the deck cannot come together without their inclusion. One means of circumventing this is through the creation of your own custom art proxies. Details for doing so can be found here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=203629.
Make note that by playing this deck, you're accepting that you enjoy being the aggressor and in many senses the “boogie man” at the table. You're going to be dictating the pace of the game and many people will try to stop you from the get-go just because of the general you're playing. This can be a fun position but some people feel like it turns the game into a game of archenemy. If you feel this way, the deck isn't for you.
With that said welcome to the Primer on multiplayer L.E.D Skithiryx! As always, I'm open to suggestions. Please leave comments and questions in this thread and I'll reply ASAP.
Sincerely,
Rishana
Is Infect Overpowered In EDH?
Is infect broken in EDH? This question has sparked all sorts of drama, arguments, flaming etc. across these boards. Allow me to try and definitively answer the question based on hundreds and hundreds of games. Infect is an extremely powerful mechanic in EDH such that many people have called for the raising of the poison counters require to kill a player to 15 or even 20 in some cases. However, Infect as a mechanic (with the exception of a handful of cards) requires creatures to do the lion's share of the work in poisoning a player, even when proliferation is the intended means of raising a player's poison counters to ten. Most of the creatures bearing Infect are extremely sub-par and bring nothing to the table outside of their status as Infect creatures. The exceptions to this are Skithiryx and Blightsteel Colossus.
As infecters are mainly creatures, they are the simplest permanent in a game of EDH to deal with. Every deck should have a means of interacting with creatures such that no one should feel completely unable to fight back against an aggressive infect list. Compared to some of the major combo's in EDH that require one to be able to interact on the stack or simply lose, Infect is quite easy to deal with. Time stretch piloted by a Riku player is infinitely more devastating than anything Infect could hope to do.
The general logic behind the infect as an overpowered mechanic is that ten poison counters = death in twenty life Magic so in a format where life totals are doubled, then the amount of poison to kill a player should be too. Likewise, people feel that they should not be under such pressure by creatures early on in an EDH game since the life totals were double specifically to encourage long games. However, what they don't realize is that other aggro generals kill just as quickly as Skithiryx. Rafiq, Uril and even now the new Maelstrom Wanderer all kill just as quickly as Skithiryx without support as well as giving access to multiple colors.
What people feel is overpowered is actually quick combat kills in EDH and they see Infect as being the cause when in reality, it is no more overpowered than the other combat oriented Voltron generals in the format and no where near as powerful as something like hermit druid, Zur, Arcum, Azami etc.
Who Will Enjoy Playing this Deck?
This deck certainly isn't for everyone. There are a lot of things about it that may seem unappealing to some people. You will enjoy playing this deck if:
-You like and value pro-activity and don't mind trading some consistency for potential power.
-You prefer to play the role of aggressor and set the pace of the game.
-You find combo wins to be cheap and cheesy and prefer the redzone.
-You enjoy tutoring and having access to your whole deck on a whim.
-You don't believe taking a player out of the game is a bad thing.
-You seek to play more Magic in a game of EDH rather than stop your opponent from playing.
-You don't think Infect is broken, douchy etc.
The Deck List
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Increasing Ambition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Precursor Golem
1 Grave Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mind Stone
1 Coalition Relic
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Scroll Rack
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Lashwrithe
1 Grafted Exoskeleton
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Glistening Oil
1 Dark Ritual
1 Shrouded Lore
1 Tainted Strike
1 Profane Command
1 Exsanguinate
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Ancient Craving
1 Ambition's Cost
1 Damnation
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Promise of Power
1 Army of the Damned
1 Sorin Markov
1 Karn Liberated
24 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Strip Mine
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Card Selection Choices
Creatures
Vampire Hexmage
Vampire Hexmage is an extremely versatile card that can serve as an early aggressor with a Sword or other potent equipment or it can take out enemy planeswalkers and other counter relevant permanents. However her greatest strength lies in the infamous Dark Depth's combo. Marit Lage is hard for some decks to answer and even the ones that do require a sacrifice or exile effect in hand before the two turn clock ends their life.
Xiahou Dun the One-Eyed
Ah Xiahou Dun... This guy is possibly one of the best creatures ever printer for mono-Black. He is infinitely versatile. He can recur a tutor when you need it. He can recur a disenchanted Necropotence or a cast Promise of power. He can be looped with Profane Commands. In addition to being a regrowth on legs, he can also pick up equipment and swing uncontested into the redzone. With a Grafted Exoskeleton, he becomes a two turn unblockable clock. Add a Lashwrite for added fun.
Graveborn Muse
Most mono-Black players agree that Phyrexian Arena is a good card and many would argue that it's an auto-include. What's better for a voltron deck that wants to attack? An Arena on legs! Add a Grave Titan for absurd card advantage—just be careful not to die!
Note: Three power + Grafted Exoskeleton = Two turn clock!
Solemn Simularcrum
Ah everyone's favorite emo robot... Sad Robot is ramp, card advantaged and perfectly costed for the four-drop into Sword play. Playing him on turn two puts you so far ahead that it leaves everyone else struggling to keep up.
Bloodgift Demon
We've already established that Graveborn Muse is amazing. For one more mana we get +2/+1 and Flying and the occasional ability to knock out an opponent at one life. The demon is a wonderful turn two play after a turn one Mana Vault.
Precursor Golem
A lot of people don't like Precursor Golem. They say that while it combo's with Tainted Strike for a one-shot, on its own its lackluster. I couldn't disagree more. Precursor Golem represents a whopping NINE power for FIVE mana with the added bonus of dodging edict effect removal and getting really crazy really quick with Nim Deathmantle.
A turn two Precursor Golem is entirely possible. Given no other changes on the board, by turn six one player is already DEAD. In addition to being a huge threat in and of itself, players are force into peculiar situations when deciding whether to block or not because the danger of eating a Tainted Strike are always there.
Grave Titan
Really this guy is a boss... Ten power for six mana that creates an insane board presence is just too good to pass up. Grave Titan is a wonderful play to run out before dropping Skithryx for the first time. He demands to be answered so either he draws out removal people were holding for Skithiryx or he and his little friends bash some face and develop your board.
Even if he is answered, his minions stick around to continue to the hunt for brains. They can pick up equipment, jump in the way to save some damage etc. Combine with Graveborn Muse for lots of fun!
Steel Hellkite
It's no surprise that mono-Black has trouble dealing with Enchantments and Artifacts. In a deck so jam-packed with ramp, tutors, draw and threats, there's little room for the typical amounts for removal most more control oriented EDH decks run. Steel Hellkite is both a massive threat and an answer to all of those troubling problems that mono-Black usually cannot deal with.
An early Steel Hellkite can take control of the game in a way that few other creatures can by eating other players early accelerators ensuring that you maintain in control of the game. He also single-handedly demolishes token swarms. For added fun, try Sculpting Steeling him or pouring all of that mana from Cabal Coffers into his fire breathing.
Nirkana Revenant
A lot of people are enamored with mana doublers in mono-Black. In addition Cabal Coffers, which should be in every mono-Black deck, I see many lists running Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power and Caged Sun! While these are all stellar cards, mono-Black has a plethora of absolutely amazing non-basic lands such as Volrath's Stronghold, Shizo, Phyrexian Tower. Each additional non-basic detracts from the potency of the artifact mana doublers which all depend on basic lands.
Nirkana has a quite relevant clause in her text which is missing in the artifact doublers. “Whenever you tap a Swamp for mana, add B to your mana pool (in addition to the mana the land produces). “ What this means is that with Urborg out, your Strip Mine, Maze of Ith etc. all tap for BB. Hell, Coffers taps for [Swamp Count] + B. Nirkana also goes much better with all of the ramp that the deck is running and brings a board presence to boot. Like Precursor Golem, players must be weary of letting Nirkana connect if they don't want to eat a tainted strike and five +1/+1 activations.
Rune-Scared Demon
Tutors are good. Tutors that beat face are better. Rune-Scared Demon can go fetch his own Grafted Exoskeleton or Glistening Oil to turn himself into a two turn clock. While Rune-Scared Demon might be overly expensive in a normal control build, with the amount of ramp this deck packs, it's simple to power him out and take advantage of that which he brings with him. Good targets are the aforementioned poison enablers, Sword of Fear and Famine, Cabal Coffers and Nim Deathmantle—the latter of which allows you to continually tutor to your hearts content.
Ulamog, the Infiite Gyre
Topping out the curve, Ulamog represents all that is beastly and mean in a threat. Players are force to answer him quickly or be annihilated. However, Ulamog's indestructibility ensures that he is quite hard to answer once he has hit the board. His ten power is perfect for giving him the Infect mechanic. And while eleven mana is heafty, it's not outside the range of this decks ramping capabilities. More often than not however, Ulamog shows up late game once removal is spent and closes the game.
As for Ulamog's on-cast trigger, is yet another means of dealing with pesky enchantments, artifacts planeswalkers and lands. His graveyard trigger is actually something I look at as a drawback . A late-game Yawgmoth's Will is often a play that can takes this deck from a losing scenario to a backbreaking board position. However, Ulamog's indestructibility usually prevents this from happening as the primary means of dealing with him are effects that exile.
Tutors
Running 7 hard tutors may seem like a lot but to be honest, I wish there were more good, reliable tutors available. For a while I was running the transmute engine and for a slower build of the deck, I definitely recommended them. With the shift to L.E.D focus however, they are just too slow. Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Grim Tutor should be self-explanatory. Diabolic Tutor, Demonic Increasing Ambition and Beseech the Queen however require a little more justification. Diabolic Tutor is in many ways simply a worse Demonic Tutor. Given the frequency that the deck jumps from two to four mana, its not that slow. Increasing Ambition can be played again via flashback to set up insurmountable advantage. Finally Beseech the Queen, acts as a second Grim Tutor with the drawback of having to have land in play to get what you really want.
As for why the deck runs so many tutors? Well tutors are the type of of card that are most in line with the “answer players” philosophy that this deck ascribes to. They also allow me to get away with running very few answer spells, though the answers I do run handle all types of permanents (Ulamog, Karn etc.) This type of play style would not be possible without this extensive amount of tutors.
Change Log
3/10/2012
-1 Inkmoth Nexus
-1 Lotus Petal
+1 Reliquary Tower
+1 Shrouded Lore
How good have you found Precursor Golem and Tainted Strike to be? They're a combo together, but fairly easily disrupted; and there's little else that good to Tainted Strike in the deck.
EDH
WBRKaalia of the VastRBW
BChainer, Dementia MasterB
Legacy
0Manaless Dredge0
RGoblinsR
Standard
RBWThe AristocratsWBR
The deck was excelling at ramping into big mana quickly but had relatively little means of utilizing 10 or more mana in a single turn. To this end, I've added Army of the Damned and Ulamog—two card that simply win the game if left unanswered.
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Collusion
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Precursor Golem
1 Grave Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mind Stone
1 Coalition Relic
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Scroll Rack
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mimic Vat
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Lashwrithe
1 Grafted Exoskeleton
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Glistening Oil
1 Dark Ritual
1 Tainted Strike
1 Profane Command
1 Exsanguinate
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Ancient Craving
1 Ambition's Cost
1 Damnation
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Promise of Power
1 Army of the Damned
1 Sorin Markov
1 Karn Liberated
24 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Strip Mine
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Both Precursor Golem and Tainted Strike are amazing stand alone cards in this deck. Precursor Golem is essentially nine power for a mere five mana. Given the ability of this deck to produce mana quickly, that can happen on turn two quite regularly. Four turns late, someone is quite close to being dead. It's also a threat that simply can't be ignored because of Tainted Strike.
Tainted Strike on the other hand combines well with all creatures in every deck in the game so long as they are entering the redzone for at least one damage. Routinely people will take five or six damage without batting an eye. With tainted strike you can capitalize on this, untap and finish people off with Skithiryx. Even poisoning someone fore a mere two damage, you're shortening the time it takes to kill by a whole turn.
You're right. The deck functions perfectly without LED. LED represents a mentality shift in the basic fundamental ideology of the deck. Once LED joined the deck, so too did Lotus Petal etc. Cards that required themselves to be held in hand such as Imp's Mischief were replaced and the deck transformed into a deck that tried to play its hand out every turn.
Level 1 Judge
First question is pretty simple: would you consider this a competitive deck? Next up, what's the decision against running Grafted Wargear seems like it's just +3 poison every time you get Skithiryx into play. I'd also like to hear why you've chosen to omit sword of fire and ice. I would think this deck would love the CA it generates, or better put, why have you picked the swords you picked?
Level 1 Judge
I've actually taken Sorin Markov out of my list due to a reliance on killing with poison, but you actually include a fair few ways to hammer the damage home normally.
I'm skeptical of Army of the Damned however, as it seems like a very large mana investment for no immediate effect on the board. While it does generate 26 power, they enter tapped while also inciting attention from the table.
Question for you: how do you handle fog effects? The players I play with have started to respect the beat down enough to include repeatable, difficult to disrupt fog cards such as Moment's Peace that put me in a really awkward position when I attack "for the win."
I don't really want to include any of the "I win" buttons like the Leyline/Helm combo if I can avoid it, but it's frustrating when the three other players at the table all have enough fog to keep me at bay indefinitely.
In your current build one piece of equipment you may want to look into is Shuko. It costs 1 to cast, equips for free and turns Skithiryx into a 2 turn clock. It also works well with other cheap infect creatures.
When I play aggro in Commander I'm very careful about putting in too many expensive cards. You really want to aggressively curve out every game. Running ramp is fine but the focus of the ramp should be ramping you up to 5 or maybe 7. If you find that you're wanting to put in hugely expensive spells like ulamog it's likely that you have too much ramp and that can be scaled back for more cheap threats. Your commander is your curve topper, anything more expensive than that really needs to be absurd to get a spot.
Level 1 Judge
Testing has shown that being able to capitalize on other players damage and/or bloody the waters so that other players can take them out. Think of the following scenario. Turn 2-3 Grave Titan followed by a Sorin setting someone in lethal range for the zombie horde. This deck does it regularly. Likewise an early Sorin doesn't need to just put someone to 10. Often times Sorin can add some much needed life gain as well as check small creatures and/or low toughness generals.
I've never lost a game that Army resolved. Those guys just KILL people. As for attracting the entire table, I do that when I sit down and show my general... If that doesn't do it, the fact that I'm at eight mana by turn three usually does.
I guess I don't... I haven't encountered this. I play mostly online since I live in Japan and Japanese players seem to think EDH= Vintage and try to combo out ASAP. I don't develop my deck to win vs. people meta-gamed against me... I'd probably just switch up the deck if this happened to me over and over as it is essentially trolling.
I too am against such forms of “I Win” including infinite mana, which is why you'll see no rings + temple combo etc. in my list. I also don't like to play strategies that try to take away other peoples ability to play the game. I believe in trying to play MORE magic than other players in EDH rather than stopping them from playing the game.
Absolutely. All threats need to be weight against Skithiryx in terms of potency. Early on (as in before six mana) I'm spending all of my mana on ramp or card draw. Doing so sets me up for a win much more so than early aggression via other infect creatures would. All of the creatures currently in the deck fit into two catagories: Card advantage/Utility creature or more potent threats than Skithiryx. It's a far better option to run more potent non-Infect creatures and give them Infect via other cards like Glistening Oil and Tainted Strike.
I have tested it and found it to be quite lackluster given that I don't run any other Infect creatures. While it is good on Skithiryx, it Is quite poor on all of the other creatures. Any of the sword turn Skithiryx into a two turn clock as well however they offer other bonuses. I expect bigger things from my equipment.
While I agree that it is important to keep your CMC low in aggro EDH, I think that cheap threats simply don't get the job done. I think good aggro in EDH is all about ramping into hyper bombs quicker than your opponent can and slamming threats that need to be dealt with NOW (Ulamog, Army of the Damned, Marit Lage etc.) before your opponents are ready to deal with them.
I already run Phyrexian Tower as a sac outlet. I'll be honest though, I usually just try to kill the blue player before he can steal Skithiryx. Homeward path is nice but not something I'd preemptively blow a tutor on so it ends up being I have it or I don't senario. I'm already concerned about the swamp count. Where would you fit it in?
Bittrbloosom and friends (bloodghast and reassembling skeleton) are useful but adding them to the deck pushes things into a much more control-oriented build. To add those and NOT add Contamination and Infernal Darkness (as well as Skullclamp) would just be sinful as far as I'm concerned. Definitely powerful but not the direction the deck seeks to go in.
I still think the deck could be sped up some to kill more consistently before people are able to defend themselves. Possible inclusions would be Hatred, more ramp (Bubbling Muck and maybe 2cc mana rocks), cutting Ambitions Cost & Ancient Craving for Night's Whisper & Sign in Blood and Ill-Gotten Gains & Insidious Dreams over a couple of the transmute tutors or Liliana Vess.
Sorry I just realized I never got around to replying to this inquiry. Let's start with explaining the choice to omit the Grafted Wargear. While the Wargear is quite amazing on Skithiryx, much like my explanation for the lack of Shuko in response to Donald, Grafted Wargear just doesn't do enough for non-Skithiryx creatures. If I want to play a risky equipment, I'd use Grafted Exoskeleton which I do find worth the risk.
As for the choice of swords, I had originally included all four of the swords. When LED was unbanned and I needed to look for deck space, I notice I had way more equipment than the number of creatures I had. I decided to go with Feast and Famine because it is all powerful and War and Peace because it can turn little creatures into nightmares and supplied life gain. War and Peace in practice hasn't been doing what I wanted. I've since swapped that and Mimic Vat for Sword of Light and Shadow as well as Sword of Fire and Ice. This offers me all protections while only doubling up on pro-black, which isn't a bad thing at all.
I don't deny that it's powerful but I really hate locking other players out of the game. I think it also tends to take the deck in a different direction if we start going dirty. Myojin, Mindslaver etc.
With proper mulliganing and tutoring, you should be casting Skithiryx by turn three most games. Adding more ramp could only speed this up by a turn or so at best at the cost of consistency. Hatred is a card everyone suggests in Skithiryx but in practice it is absolutely terrible. Usually games play out in a manner where I cast Skithiryx with haste and attack for four. The next turn I equip and finish off. If we imagine Hatred instead of a sword, in this scenario we would only need to pay a mere two life. In the case we want to one-shot, then both Nightmare Lash and Lashwrite get the job done and Nightmare lash doesn't even make the cut for me!
Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper are nice cards but we are jumping from 1-4 mana via mana crypt, Sol Ring etc. Rarely are we going to be casting 2 CMC spells and these just don't give enough benefit per card to warrant their inclusion as far as I have seen in testing.
I guess I just don't see it as inherently dirty, at least not dirtier than trying to ramp out Skithiryx and kill someone on turn 6. The Myojin fits very well with what you're trying to do with the deck as well...maybe you could have a section of optional cards for people who want a fully optimized build for cutthroat games? I mean killing them quickly locks them out of the game too.
I'm a little confused as to how games are regularly playing out with this deck. You stated that you're usually casting Skithiryx on turn 3, with haste and an equipment in hand. I can't help but feel this is an overexageration even with ramp and tutors and I'm also a little surprised people are consistently unable to deal with Skithiryx by this stage of the game and if this is in fact the case then I still do not see the need to run alternate finishers over infect creatures.
Adding in more ramp will make this strategy more consistent not less consistent as you will more consistently have enough early ramp for this to be possible. Some notable exclusions from your list also include Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond & Worn Powerstone and I'd imagine that you're pretty close to being able to run Voltaic Key as a ramper.
I always prefer cheaper spells when possible. They're useful earlier in the game because they're cheaper to cast and later on they're still good because you can cast multiple cheap spells per turn instead of 1 big jumbo spell that was useless until later on. It makes your deck more resilient to counters, mass land destruction and even spot removal since you're playing out multiple smaller threats instead of 1 big one. The downside of course is this requires more cards but monoblack has excellent draw power to support this. My monoblack list is extremely controlling and very slow and even there I cut Ancient Craving a while back and have been very pleased with the 2 mana spells.
I run it in my build and it does some serious work. Stops everything from Maze of Ith to Helm of Obediance.
Perhaps you're right... I learned to love EDH in a playgroup that gathers at a all-you-can-eat pizza store in Tokyo. When we started our group, we were all pretty much in agreement with the philosophy that good games of EDH where when people tried to do more cooler stuff and the unfavorable games came from trying to stop people from doing their cool stuff. We didn't care if we were taken out because that meant we could go get pizza. We also ended up having quicker games because we didn't try to deny resources.
However, this is not the case with the rest of the EDH community. In fact, a lot of people look at powering out Skithiryx as a strategy that isn't fun where as the climate I learned to play in encouraged this type of battleship play. Personally I hate the feeling of being in a game but being without lines of play. However, in conversations with people I've come to learn that they see things quite differently as as such, how I feel is quite irrelevant.
I decided to add the Myojin after all. I cut the SoFI again, going back to a Feast and Famine and War and Peace package. I like these two as they are the most aggressively designed swords and the War and Peace gives me some breathing room on life. I've done 39 points to my face on far too many occasions to not feel a little naked without it.
As for cutthroat games, I put this deck at the highest pinnacle a deck can go without going into the zone of combo. Once infinite (or infinite enough) combos become involved, then I feel like things devolve into who can solitaire out quicker. If we are going to define cutthroat as the Zur, Azami, etc. level then I wouldn't even be playing the deck. It's entirely possible in EDH to combo out on turn two close to 100% of the time but I don't think that type of play is enjoyable.
In response to your earlier inquiry, I've been testing Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper vs. the two draw three four mana spells and have found that I like the four mana ones better after all. They fit better in the curve, do more in a single card when I'm looking to refill my hand and I feel much better cracking LED in response to their being cast.
Often times prepared decks will have answers and that is what the other creatures in the deck do best—eat Skthiryx removal. Given the option, I much rather play Grave Titan turn three than Skithryx. Someone will have to answer the Titan or they will get rolled over. Once answers are played is the optimal time to cast Skithryx. The most threatening situation one can be in when facing this deck is to be in the mid-late game and having Skithiryx without a single death as his Haste will mean he will just keep coming back the next turn.
Adding more ramp comes at a price. What do we cut? Tutors? Card draw? God forbid cutting land! The deck's already heavily reliant on proper use of the partial-paris. While Voltatic Key has been a reliable source of ramp, it is also relatively useless on its own. Unless I decide to run Mimic Vat and Contagion Engine again, I feel it doesn't do enough for its inclusion. As for the Mox, they are too risky. There are far too many KEEPABLE hands in this deck that have but a single land or a single black spell to pitch. They also are only a one mana acceleration which I don't see as worth it outside of Ancient Tomb. Worn Powerstone, while good is not good enough. I'd run Basalt Monolith over that.
I've considered it before and I don't doubt its potency but I have tried to steer myself away from reactionary cards other than Damnation. All of the other answers can be played proactively so that the deck can continually empty its hand and draw via Necropotence and all of the other card draw.
Very nice list.
what do you think about adding: The Trident
It seems like a much better fit for the deck. Consult for LED isn't that dangerous.
I am a little confused about some of the midrange and high end cards included. It seems to me if the game plan is Turn 1 tutor for LED, turn 2 Skithiryx and ride it to the win you would want more cards that maximize that plan. I really like the idea of Shuko and the War Gear.
If you don't want to run Hand disruption, something like Defense Grid might be helpful as well.
Here's an updated decklist:
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Expedition Map
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Increasing Ambition
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Grave Titan
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Griselbrand
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mind Stone
1 Coalition Relic
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Scroll Rack
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Lashwrithe
1 Grafted Exoskeleton
1 Glistening Oil
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Necropotence
1 Shrouded Lore
1 Dark Ritual
1 Tainted Strike
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancient Craving
1 Ambition's Cost
1 Damnation
1 Promise of Power
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Army of the Damned
1 Profane Command
1 Exsanguinate
1 Liliana Vess
1 Karn Liberated
23 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Maze of Ith
1 Strip Mine
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
Let me answer some questions.
Unspeakable Symbol is one of those cards that is REALLY good if you play a lot of Infect creatures and REALLY bad if you build most of the rest of the deck around traditional creatures. Riding everything on Skithiryx is asking for trouble and the deck already is very life hungry. I've done upwards of 30 to 40 points of damage to myself in a single game before!
Cruel tutor is a fine card and I played it a lot over the years but a three mana Imperial Seal has just been eclipsed by today's tutors. Were it not on top, I would consider it but there are just far to many things fighting for a slot to warrant it's conclusion now.
Ok so there are basically three cards that I consider to be finishers—in other words cards that do two or more poison counters without combat. These are the Trident as you mention along with Contagion Engine and Caress of Phyrexia. Each of the three do the same thing essentially but all come with different conditions. Let's first look at each of these in a vacuum then decide if they are worth the slot.
Surestrike Trident: Requires Skithiryx to be in play and not eat removal in response to the equip. Having first strike and not needed to attack means that Skithiryx can stay home as a scary blocker that will leave a mark no matter what. The effect can be doubled by Rings of Brighthearth and essentially bypasses blockers. Would Whispersilk Cloak's shroud be more beneficial? It depends on your build.
Contagione Engne: Requires there to be at least one poison counter on a player before use. Extremely mana hungry. Also doubles as a wrath and can keep pesky generals like Akroma on the board but extremely weakened.
Caress of Phyrexia: The most efficient KO-Punch. Useless as an offensive spell until someone is at seven or more poison counters. Can double as a draw three spell for oneself in a pinch.
These three cards suffer from the same issues as the Symbol. Their efficacy increases as you add more infect elements to the deck. However, doing so decreases the overall card quality of the deck. I have personally chosen to play with more cards that are good alone such as Grave Titan than go all-in on Infect based damage. The reasons for doing so are many and would require an in depth analysis of the how games play out with the deck. If you're interested in hearing some theory, do let me know.
Again, the Sai suffers from the lack of usage outside of a dedicated Infect list. I tried Sword of the Chosen which essentially does the same thing once, and though it helped me kill quicker it was dead just as often.
What does reduce Skithiryx's clock by a turn that I am super excited about is the recently spoiled Cathedral of War. Exalted on a colorless land that shortens my kill by a turn? Yesplz.
When you sit down with Skithiryx you're signing up for a quasi 3-vs-1 situation. Targeted discard such as Duress is a 1-for-1 trade when you're facing a 3-vs-1. Even if I strip the blue mages counters, there is still the other two players who have removal of their own. Essentially it comes down to the philosophy that I cannot stop all disruption so to win, I need to play more Magic than my three opponents (most likely two due to how multiplayer politicking works) such that they do not have a chance to garner sufficient resources in time. Cavern of Souls has helped massively vs. the blue mages so realistic all that's left is to power out enough deadly force to overwhelm removal.
When I started playing Skithiryx it was in a saga of EDH in which resources were sacred and the ideal game of EDH was to bash battleships against each other. The basic rational was that no one likes playing a game of Magic in which they are in a situation where they can't play. There were not as many decks playing i-Win cards back then. Due to the change in card pools, these once sacred cows cannot be justified as off limits anymore. Green ramp will crush you if you let it get all the lands it wants. Likewise, some things just win once resolved (looking at you G-Banned). Bringing elements of mass land destruction and mass discard back into the formant are a necessity to preserve the fun as they are the only ways to combat some of the emerging strategies that don't interact in the way decks of the past did.
I faced a lot of resistance from myself when I made the choice to include the black Myojin. I remember many a sour experience, often ending in a ragequit from members of my old real life playgroup. Since I've moved to playing online exclusively after having to sell my real life collection due to the constant moving I mentioned earlier, my philosophy has shifted and I now see it as a necessary evil. Especially in regards to G-Banned, Black Myojin is one of the one cards capable of dealing with a resolved Bargin on crack, assuming its in play already.
Nope. It was demonic collusion. The slot was replaced by Increasing Ambitions and will soon be replaced by the new epic 5cc X tutor in order to best take advantage of the ungodly amounts of mana this list makes.
You're overestimating how crucial L.E.D is to the deck. I'm not trying to use L.E.D. Skthiryx early. Rarely is that a good plan. Usually it's popped in response to something like a tutor or Promise of Power. The best scenario is playing Demonic Tutor on turn one or two with LED in hand. Tutor, crack it, get Necropotence play it, draw 10.
The deck skips the early and mid game and powers right into the 6-8 mana range. You're misunderstanding the goal of the deck. While there are times an early Skithiryx is good, often the best place you can be in is to have 10+ mana and a Skithiryx in the command zone that hasn't died. When removal is spent, the haste on everyone's favorite dragon ensures he's going to keep coming back until you're dead.
The goal of the deck is to play more Magic faster than the table is able to keep up. The deck is set up, if you will excuse the use of a metaphor, with a high chance to roll a critical strike. I admit there are times where I fail the roll and the deck struggles but I am OK with losing a few games here and there for the games I gain by having access to such quick power.