While Zoidberg and I discussed array in his thread, he also shed some light on Bog Initiate as another option. Its a smaller hit off nauseum, not an artifact of removal is overly prevelant in your meta, and is easy to cast. It does however suffer from being a creature, and being useless outside of comboing off, so ymmv.
Just my 2 cents, reading this makes me miss playing Oona :[
1) Play chain of vapor. It is by far and away the strongest bounce spell.
2) Cut force spike, it's very bad.
3) Cut gemstone/lattis reasons are as follows.
A) Goblin cannon is strictly better and it's abysmally terribad.
B) For a measly one more colored mana increasing ambition fetches guilded lotus which taps for black fetching sculpting steel and phyrexian metamorph for 8 colored killing 5 other players. (Or get tidesprout + sculpting steel for infinite colorless) Gemstones is bad. Cut it for something.
4) Consider playing more basics in order to utilize lake of the dead. It's very strong.
1) I agree, and had it in the Echoing Truth slot for quite some time. It's a meta call, as my metagame in infested with fast swarm decks , particularly Krenko, against which Truth gives me considerably more marginal utility.
2) If this was a pure multiplayer deck I'd agree 100%, but as I said in the initial post, we vary between 1vs1 and multiplayer, with no advance warning. Force Spike is actually quite good in 1 vs 1 Remember, we are typically killing on turn 4-6 - most decks will be mana tight during that time and they tend to tap out.
We CAN NOT cut gemstone/lattice. Oona is absurdly mana/color hungry. There is quite literally no way to go off some games without the fixing of those cards. In fact I run Beseech the Queen just because it is a colorless tutor for Gemstone. But no, it can not be done. It is as much of a staple as Power Artifact.
4) Lake of the Dead seems very bad in a developed meta game with plenty of land destruction. Same reason I don't include the Karoo land - a wasteland on a land like this REALLY hurts, especially if you end up playing the long game, which does happen from time to time. Also, the deck needs boht colors very frequently - more swamps is not a good thing here - I only run 2 to avoid Fetchlands becoming dead.
While Zoidberg and I discussed array in his thread, he also shed some light on Bog Initiate as another option. Its a smaller hit off nauseum, not an artifact of removal is overly prevelant in your meta, and is easy to cast. It does however suffer from being a creature, and being useless outside of comboing off, so ymmv.
Just my 2 cents, reading this makes me miss playing Oona :[
Bog Initiate requires colored mana to cast. One of the keys to Gemstone Array (which I really do hate running, but feel it's a necessary evil), is that it is entirely colorless - you can Beseech the Queen and cast it with no colored mana at all, and then BAM! you win. Goblin Cannon however might actually be better ironically. It's not reliant on Oona still being in the command zone (in case she gets tucked), and actually does something (albeit poorly) outside of the combo. It also wins in corner cases like the opponent having a True Believer or Platinum Angel in play.
To this I pose a question: Assuming you want one of these cards, under what circumstances is Gemstone Array good and Goblin Cannon bad?
Ultimately, I truly hope this Gemstone Array discussion becomes moot in Dragon's Maze, as I do believe the spoiled "mox art" will be a filter mox, which is clearly good in this deck and would solve a number of problems, as well as eliminate a vastly overcosted and annoying combo piece.
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Ultimately, I truly hope this Gemstone Array discussion becomes moot in Dragon's Maze, as I do believe the spoiled "mox art" will be a filter mox, which is clearly good in this deck and would solve a number of problems, as well as eliminate a vastly overcosted and annoying combo piece.
I love Capsize, and there are various ways of making infinite mana to bounce everything. One thing I would do was use Rings of Brighthearth [which is a great card on it's own] with Basalt Monolith. Just copy the untap ability and go infinite. If you also have Minamo, School at Water Edge, you can then turn that infinte colorless and filter it into infinite Blue by making Minamo untap itself twice, floating a blue each other time...
Pay U2 and put 2 untap abilities on the stack - resolve the first one and tap Minamo for U. Resolve the second one. U flotating, Minamo untapped.
Pay U2 and target Minamo with both untap abilities
Tap for U in response to 2nd uptap.
U floating, Minamo untapped.
you net zero colored mana because you have to Tap Minamo to use the untap ability, getting zero U from it and paying U into it. The second instance merely paies for the cost of the untap.
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Pay U2 and put 2 untap abilities on the stack - resolve the first one and tap Minamo for U. Resolve the second one. U flotating, Minamo untapped.
Pay U2 and target Minamo with both untap abilities
Tap for U in response to 2nd uptap.
U floating, Minamo untapped.
you net zero colored mana because you have to Tap Minamo to use the untap ability, getting zero U from it and paying U into it. The second instance merely paies for the cost of the untap.
Didn't think so but I needed to make sure. Stupid colored mana.
Instead of a color fixer? What's the point of running Oona as the general then? I don't think I've been disappointed enough with Gemstone to consider removing it.
Instead of a color fixer? What's the point of running Oona as the general then? I don't think I've been disappointed enough with Gemstone to consider removing it.
Think about the situations when we need Array:
we have infinite mana
we do not have 4 colored mana, + 1 per additional player we want to kill.
In this situation, tutoring for Array allows us to cast Oona, and kill the table.
We literally have no other use for Array at all. We never ever want to spend 4 mana casting it prior to killing everyone. We never use it "fairly" as a mana bank.
If Oona is tucked, Array does very little and is dependent on the other cards in our hand. If they control a True Believer or Platinum Angel, we must then find an answer to the creature before they die.
Goblin Cannon allows us to kill the entire table even if Oona is tucked and it's our last card in hand. It allows us to kill any problematic creatures getting in the way.
Goblin Cannon, unlike Array, also does have some conceivable uses outside of the Big Finish. In a pinch, we can use it to kill something that is causing us Grief if we have no other removal or tutors in hand. We can always get it back later with Academy Ruins.
These are marginal advantages to be sure. In 90% of games, one will be just as good as the other. But i can't think of any situations where Array is Better than Cannon - it's either as good, or worse. Which leaves me wondering- why not make the switch?
As to why Oona is the general, I certainly don't find myself tutoring for Array every single time I combo off. May times she's already in place and I have plenty of colored mana to get the job done. The Tidespout combos already generate infinite colorless, so Array isn't required and Oona fills the finisher role in her traditional awesome fashion. In questioning Array, I'm just questioning the specific situations in which we actually use it.
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Instead of a color fixer? What's the point of running Oona as the general then? I don't think I've been disappointed enough with Gemstone to consider removing it.
Wholeheartedly agree. I was skeptical about array to at first but it really is amazing in a deck thats as mana hungry as this. If you have infi mana, just dump it into oona at that point. If you realllllly want another infi mana outlet, I guess exsanguinate? Could also be used with non infi mana to get back in the game or just snipe someone.
Wholeheartedly agree. I was skeptical about array to at first but it really is amazing in a deck thats as mana hungry as this. If you have infi mana, just dump it into oona at that point. If you realllllly want another infi mana outlet, I guess exsanguinate? Could also be used with non infi mana to get back in the game or just snipe someone.
See my analysis above. Exsanguinate is not what we're looking for here at all. Array is better by far in this deck. We need a colorless solution. What I'm asking in the analysis is what situations in which we want Array is Goblin Cannon not just pretty much strictly better??
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See my analysis above. Exsanguinate is not what we're looking for here at all. Array is better by far in this deck. We need a colorless solution. What I'm asking in the analysis is what situations in which we want Array is Goblin Cannon not just pretty much strictly better??
Yeah im sorry, when i was posting my previous response you didn't post yet, I meant it to go before.
Goblin Cannon however might actually be better ironically.
This is getting sigged. It's also funny as hell. I seriously don't see the point of playing it though. Following situations.
It was intended to be a joke.
You go to infinite mana with 0 colored open. Requires beseech the queen to tutor for either. Pretty corner case (since requires beseech)
You go infinite with 1 colored and 1 tutor that ISN'T Increasing ambition. This is the ONLY situation in which either card is reasonably good and these only come up on T3ish most of the time it's fairly rare.
You go infinite with 2 colored and 1 tutor. Tutor -> Increasing ambition -> Guilded lotus -> Flashback -> Sculpting steel/Metamorph lotus deck the rest. OR Get stroke of genius and draw your deck.
Exsanguinate is not what we're looking for here at all.
It's also SIGNIFICANTLY worse than time warp as I have mentioned.
If you have infi mana, just dump it into oona at that point.
Infinite colorless you need 6 colored to do that. You need 1 to grab goblin cannon is almost strictly better than gemstone array. It's not like playing goyf over werebear it's more like playing lightning bolt over chain lightning. One is better 90% of the time.
This is getting sigged. It's also funny as hell. I seriously don't see the point of playing it though. Following situations.
It was intended to be a joke.
You go to infinite mana with 0 colored open. Requires beseech the queen to tutor for either. Pretty corner case (since requires beseech)
You go infinite with 1 colored and 1 tutor that ISN'T Increasing ambition. This is the ONLY situation in which either card is reasonably good and these only come up on T3ish most of the time it's fairly rare.
You go infinite with 2 colored and 1 tutor. Tutor -> Increasing ambition -> Guilded lotus -> Flashback -> Sculpting steel/Metamorph lotus deck the rest. OR Get stroke of genius and draw your deck.
Except then you have to run Gilded Lotus, Sculpting Steel, and Phyrexian Metamorph. Not that they're not good cards, believe me I like them all better than Array, the thing is I don't like any of them better than what I'm already running. I actually cut Gilded Lotus a while ago as it was just too clunky. These adds also make As Nauseum much worse.
I think the deck needs the Array slot. I think it's an evil, a stupid slot for a bad card that you just have to run. What I am asking is this:
Are there ANY circumstances under which Goblin Cannon isn't just better than Array, considering only the situations where the slot is relevant at all (ie - infinite mana with less than 4 colored mana).
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Except then you have to run Gilded Lotus, Sculpting Steel, and Phyrexian Metamorph. Not that they're not good cards, believe me I like them all better than Array, the thing is I don't like any of them better than what I'm already running. I actually cut Gilded Lotus a while ago as it was just too clunky. These adds also make As Nauseum much worse.
I also do not run Sculpting Steel or Phyrexian Metamorph, and agree with you that I wouldn't want to cut anything from my current Oona list to make room for these.
What I am asking is this:
Are there ANY circumstances under which Goblin Cannon isn't just better than Array, considering only the situations where the slot is relevant at all (ie - infinite mana with less than 4 colored mana).
I've been thinking about this all day, and can't think of any scenarios where you're better off with Gemstone Array compared with Goblin Cannon, which is a card I didn't even know existed until today, when it was suggested as a joke. You could basically start with your entire Oona list, swap out Gemstone Array for Goblin Cannon, and change your general to any U/B commander. You've got B for tutors and U for counters and draw, that's what you need to have a solid combo deck. Time to dust off Nebuchadnezzar, Princess Lucrezia, or Ramses Overdark, which ever you feel is the most awesome Seriously, though, this could be a good strategy if you were playing competitively in an unknown meta with strangers for money, since you probably wouldn't get hated out as quickly with the Princess. Oona screams combo, and Nebuchadnezzar looks like a joke. On the other hand, there are times when using Oona "fairly" and building up tokens comes in handy.
Also, I know this is a ridiculous point, but I'm going to say it anyway. I don't really want to win with infinite damage. I don't really want to win using combat. I want to wipe the table with style. I mean, exiling everyone's library in one fell swoop...that's an awesome way to win. I'm pretty sure there's an alternate universe somewhere where guys who can win at magic in such a way get all the babes, while the guys attacking with creatures and dealing damage are just losers.
Also, I know this is a ridiculous point, but I'm going to say it anyway. I don't really want to win with infinite damage. I don't really want to win using combat. I want to wipe the table with style. I mean, exiling everyone's library in one fell swoop...that's an awesome way to win. I'm pretty sure there's an alternate universe somewhere where guys who can win at magic in such a way get all the babes, while the guys attacking with creatures and dealing damage are just losers.
I also do not run Sculpting Steel or Phyrexian Metamorph, and agree with you that I wouldn't want to cut anything from my current Oona list to make room for these.
Ad nauseam itself has always been game ending to me at about 15 cards which is trivially easy to get. It's possible I shouldn't play these or guilded lotus but they have proved themselves time and again (particularly metamorph which has hit arcum/zur a few times) While we may want to be as non-interactive as possible the card is so flexable that not playing it feels wrong. Although it may be because I cut a few cards that are in your list (Future sight/time spiral) that cost more mana for these.
Could just be that I hate seeing win conditions in combo decks if I can avoid it which I can with oona so I do.
I have to agree with Undone on Metamorph. The card has easily become one of the most useful things in the entire deck. The sheer versatility of the thing has earned it a spot in pretty much every deck I will ever build.
I also do not run Sculpting Steel or Phyrexian Metamorph, and agree with you that I wouldn't want to cut anything from my current Oona list to make room for these.
I've been thinking about this all day, and can't think of any scenarios where you're better off with Gemstone Array compared with Goblin Cannon, which is a card I didn't even know existed until today, when it was suggested as a joke. You could basically start with your entire Oona list, swap out Gemstone Array for Goblin Cannon, and change your general to any U/B commander. You've got B for tutors and U for counters and draw, that's what you need to have a solid combo deck. Time to dust off Nebuchadnezzar, Princess Lucrezia, or Ramses Overdark, which ever you feel is the most awesome Seriously, though, this could be a good strategy if you were playing competitively in an unknown meta with strangers for money, since you probably wouldn't get hated out as quickly with the Princess. Oona screams combo, and Nebuchadnezzar looks like a joke. On the other hand, there are times when using Oona "fairly" and building up tokens comes in handy.
Also, I know this is a ridiculous point, but I'm going to say it anyway. I don't really want to win with infinite damage. I don't really want to win using combat. I want to wipe the table with style. I mean, exiling everyone's library in one fell swoop...that's an awesome way to win. I'm pretty sure there's an alternate universe somewhere where guys who can win at magic in such a way get all the babes, while the guys attacking with creatures and dealing damage are just losers.
I get the style thing. It just doesn't really apply to me- this deck is just to win events where I care about the prize. It's not a deck I bring out much, and when I do all I care about is killing everyone with maximum effeciency.
There are still plenty of good reasons to run Oona. It's really not that uncommon to have UUUU up along with the infinite mana, or not have the tutor for Cannon/Array and have to pass and then untap, or to have Oona in play already and have U or B up to complete the kill instead of adding another tutor, or generate infintie with Tidespout, which usually comes with colorless. Oona is also much better than the other choices at just wining on her own- she still a dragon that cuts off topdeck tutors, screws with draws in other ways, and generates chump blockers while killing in 5 swings. She's an absurd card even when not used as an inifinite mana dump/insta-kill. she's still far and away the best choice for general in this deck. The Goblin Cannon doesn't take anythign away from her IMHO- it just makes the overall deck (very slightly) better.
I am considering cutting Phantasmal Image for Phyrexian Metamorph. Slightly easier to cast, easier to recur (academy ruins) - yeah, Ima make this change when I get home.
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I went ahead and cut Gemstone Array for Goblin Cannon - as previously analyzed, it fulfills the same role while offering margins against Oona being tucked or otherwise inactive (Pithing Needle) and offering (extremely marginal) utility in other corner cases. I will still go back to the mana filter if they print a filter mox.
I also changed out Phantasmal Image for Phyrexian Metamorph. Image was there mainly as a general-killer, and Metamorph only costs 1 more mana plus 2 life (or U), and can be cast without U mana, so it's functionally approximately as easy to cast. It is much easier to recur (Academy Ruins) or use to copy some absurd threat that an opponent manages to resolve. Doubling up on Memory Jar and Cloud Key has also come up and is predictably insane.
I'd like to find room for Chain of Vapor, but having issues deciding what to cut.
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Necropotence ---> Recurring Insight
Memory Jar ---> Chain of Vapor
Fact or Fiction ---> Hyrkyll's Recall
Dark Confidant---> Mycosynth Lattice
Scroll Rack--- > Phantasmal Image
Tidespout Tyrant ---> Phyrexian Revoker
Flusterstorm---> River of Tears
Hinder--> Copy Artifact
Cryptic Command--> Diabolic Revelation
Force Spike ---> Mana Leak
This would result in a net change to the deck's CMC of -5, 8 instead of 11 counterspells, the Lattice + Hurkyll's alternate wincon instead of Tyrant as another way t go infinite, 4 fewer draw spells, an additional tutor, 4 additional answers, an additional land, and 1 fewer colorless land.
I loose Tyrant as a combo option, become slightly more vulnerable to Null Rod and the like, and loose the option to recur Memory Jar.
These changes make me want Cabal Ritual and Gilded Lotus back, plus thinking about Sculpting Steel. No idea what else to cut.
Thoughts?
Edit: also want to make room for Shred Memory again to add an additional percentage vs GY decks.
Most of the changes seem potentially fine EXCEPT the removal of necro. I don't think a combo deck with black can be cutthroat without running it. The card is just absolutely nuts. I've removed it and when I added it back I kicked myself for ever taking it out.
Many of the Oona lists I've seen aren't running Necro, and the card always seems so clunky when I actually make use of it. The mana base doesn't have room for Reliquary Tower, and the exile discard hurts. I haven't been happy with it in general.
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Many of the Oona lists I've seen aren't running Necro, and the card always seems so clunky when I actually make use of it. The mana base doesn't have room for Reliquary Tower, and the exile discard hurts. I haven't been happy with it in general.
That is surprising. I would think drawing 30 cards would almost always give a win on the next turn. How has it played out for you?
Also, how do you guys feel about oona compared to any other general/color combo that can also win from infinite mana, say the newer niv or any other possibilities that I haven''t necessarily researched yet. Green comes to mind with cards like tooth and nail tutoring palinchron and deadeye navigator.
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EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
That is surprising. I would think drawing 30 cards would almost always give a win on the next turn. How has it played out for you?
Also, how do you guys feel about oona compared to any other general/color combo that can also win from infinite mana, say the newer niv or any other possibilities that I haven''t necessarily researched yet. Green comes to mind with cards like tooth and nail tutoring palinchron and deadeye navigator.
The problem is, you only get to keep 7 of them, you don't get them until end-step so you can't play out the fast mana you draw, and you need to keep protection in hand vs either counterspells, fast aggro, or both, especially leaving yourself at 10 life. It's very dis-synergistic with Ad Nauseum, which allows you to draw almost as many cards, but on your opponent's end step or upkeep (depending on what is most optimal), allowing you to untap with 30 cards in hand. THAT wins the game.
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The problem is, you only get to keep 7 of them, you don't get them until end-step so you can't play out the fast mana you draw, and you need to keep protection in hand vs either counterspells, fast aggro, or both, especially leaving yourself at 10 life. It's very dis-synergistic with Ad Nauseum, which allows you to draw almost as many cards, but on your opponent's end step or upkeep (depending on what is most optimal), allowing you to untap with 30 cards in hand. THAT wins the game.
I do agree it is more risky. Although I wonder if 7 cards wouldn't be enough to win next turn? How many tutors/combo pieces would you need and how many spots does that leave for counterspells? I've never played a dedicated combo deck so my knowledge is limited here.
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EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
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Just my 2 cents, reading this makes me miss playing Oona :[
1) I agree, and had it in the Echoing Truth slot for quite some time. It's a meta call, as my metagame in infested with fast swarm decks , particularly Krenko, against which Truth gives me considerably more marginal utility.
2) If this was a pure multiplayer deck I'd agree 100%, but as I said in the initial post, we vary between 1vs1 and multiplayer, with no advance warning. Force Spike is actually quite good in 1 vs 1 Remember, we are typically killing on turn 4-6 - most decks will be mana tight during that time and they tend to tap out.
3)
4) Lake of the Dead seems very bad in a developed meta game with plenty of land destruction. Same reason I don't include the Karoo land - a wasteland on a land like this REALLY hurts, especially if you end up playing the long game, which does happen from time to time. Also, the deck needs boht colors very frequently - more swamps is not a good thing here - I only run 2 to avoid Fetchlands becoming dead.
Bog Initiate requires colored mana to cast. One of the keys to Gemstone Array (which I really do hate running, but feel it's a necessary evil), is that it is entirely colorless - you can Beseech the Queen and cast it with no colored mana at all, and then BAM! you win. Goblin Cannon however might actually be better ironically. It's not reliant on Oona still being in the command zone (in case she gets tucked), and actually does something (albeit poorly) outside of the combo. It also wins in corner cases like the opponent having a True Believer or Platinum Angel in play.
To this I pose a question: Assuming you want one of these cards, under what circumstances is Gemstone Array good and Goblin Cannon bad?
Ultimately, I truly hope this Gemstone Array discussion becomes moot in Dragon's Maze, as I do believe the spoiled "mox art" will be a filter mox, which is clearly good in this deck and would solve a number of problems, as well as eliminate a vastly overcosted and annoying combo piece.
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You have no idea how much I hope this is true.
Does this work????
That does not work
Pay U2 and put 2 untap abilities on the stack - resolve the first one and tap Minamo for U. Resolve the second one. U flotating, Minamo untapped.
Pay U2 and target Minamo with both untap abilities
Tap for U in response to 2nd uptap.
U floating, Minamo untapped.
you net zero colored mana because you have to Tap Minamo to use the untap ability, getting zero U from it and paying U into it. The second instance merely paies for the cost of the untap.
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Didn't think so but I needed to make sure. Stupid colored mana.
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Instead of a color fixer? What's the point of running Oona as the general then? I don't think I've been disappointed enough with Gemstone to consider removing it.
Think about the situations when we need Array:
we have infinite mana
we do not have 4 colored mana, + 1 per additional player we want to kill.
In this situation, tutoring for Array allows us to cast Oona, and kill the table.
We literally have no other use for Array at all. We never ever want to spend 4 mana casting it prior to killing everyone. We never use it "fairly" as a mana bank.
If Oona is tucked, Array does very little and is dependent on the other cards in our hand. If they control a True Believer or Platinum Angel, we must then find an answer to the creature before they die.
Goblin Cannon allows us to kill the entire table even if Oona is tucked and it's our last card in hand. It allows us to kill any problematic creatures getting in the way.
Goblin Cannon, unlike Array, also does have some conceivable uses outside of the Big Finish. In a pinch, we can use it to kill something that is causing us Grief if we have no other removal or tutors in hand. We can always get it back later with Academy Ruins.
These are marginal advantages to be sure. In 90% of games, one will be just as good as the other. But i can't think of any situations where Array is Better than Cannon - it's either as good, or worse. Which leaves me wondering- why not make the switch?
As to why Oona is the general, I certainly don't find myself tutoring for Array every single time I combo off. May times she's already in place and I have plenty of colored mana to get the job done. The Tidespout combos already generate infinite colorless, so Array isn't required and Oona fills the finisher role in her traditional awesome fashion. In questioning Array, I'm just questioning the specific situations in which we actually use it.
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Wholeheartedly agree. I was skeptical about array to at first but it really is amazing in a deck thats as mana hungry as this. If you have infi mana, just dump it into oona at that point. If you realllllly want another infi mana outlet, I guess exsanguinate? Could also be used with non infi mana to get back in the game or just snipe someone.
See my analysis above. Exsanguinate is not what we're looking for here at all. Array is better by far in this deck. We need a colorless solution. What I'm asking in the analysis is what situations in which we want Array is Goblin Cannon not just pretty much strictly better??
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Yeah im sorry, when i was posting my previous response you didn't post yet, I meant it to go before.
This is getting sigged. It's also funny as hell. I seriously don't see the point of playing it though. Following situations.
It was intended to be a joke.
You go to infinite mana with 0 colored open. Requires beseech the queen to tutor for either. Pretty corner case (since requires beseech)
You go infinite with 1 colored and 1 tutor that ISN'T Increasing ambition. This is the ONLY situation in which either card is reasonably good and these only come up on T3ish most of the time it's fairly rare.
You go infinite with 2 colored and 1 tutor. Tutor -> Increasing ambition -> Guilded lotus -> Flashback -> Sculpting steel/Metamorph lotus deck the rest. OR Get stroke of genius and draw your deck.
It's also SIGNIFICANTLY worse than time warp as I have mentioned.
Infinite colorless you need 6 colored to do that. You need 1 to grab goblin cannon is almost strictly better than gemstone array. It's not like playing goyf over werebear it's more like playing lightning bolt over chain lightning. One is better 90% of the time.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Except then you have to run Gilded Lotus, Sculpting Steel, and Phyrexian Metamorph. Not that they're not good cards, believe me I like them all better than Array, the thing is I don't like any of them better than what I'm already running. I actually cut Gilded Lotus a while ago as it was just too clunky. These adds also make As Nauseum much worse.
I think the deck needs the Array slot. I think it's an evil, a stupid slot for a bad card that you just have to run. What I am asking is this:
Are there ANY circumstances under which Goblin Cannon isn't just better than Array, considering only the situations where the slot is relevant at all (ie - infinite mana with less than 4 colored mana).
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I've been thinking about this all day, and can't think of any scenarios where you're better off with Gemstone Array compared with Goblin Cannon, which is a card I didn't even know existed until today, when it was suggested as a joke. You could basically start with your entire Oona list, swap out Gemstone Array for Goblin Cannon, and change your general to any U/B commander. You've got B for tutors and U for counters and draw, that's what you need to have a solid combo deck. Time to dust off Nebuchadnezzar, Princess Lucrezia, or Ramses Overdark, which ever you feel is the most awesome Seriously, though, this could be a good strategy if you were playing competitively in an unknown meta with strangers for money, since you probably wouldn't get hated out as quickly with the Princess. Oona screams combo, and Nebuchadnezzar looks like a joke. On the other hand, there are times when using Oona "fairly" and building up tokens comes in handy.
Also, I know this is a ridiculous point, but I'm going to say it anyway. I don't really want to win with infinite damage. I don't really want to win using combat. I want to wipe the table with style. I mean, exiling everyone's library in one fell swoop...that's an awesome way to win. I'm pretty sure there's an alternate universe somewhere where guys who can win at magic in such a way get all the babes, while the guys attacking with creatures and dealing damage are just losers.
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
This is why I will run Oona.
Also helps vs extract effects. Just saying.
Ad nauseam itself has always been game ending to me at about 15 cards which is trivially easy to get. It's possible I shouldn't play these or guilded lotus but they have proved themselves time and again (particularly metamorph which has hit arcum/zur a few times) While we may want to be as non-interactive as possible the card is so flexable that not playing it feels wrong. Although it may be because I cut a few cards that are in your list (Future sight/time spiral) that cost more mana for these.
Could just be that I hate seeing win conditions in combo decks if I can avoid it which I can with oona so I do.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
I get the style thing. It just doesn't really apply to me- this deck is just to win events where I care about the prize. It's not a deck I bring out much, and when I do all I care about is killing everyone with maximum effeciency.
There are still plenty of good reasons to run Oona. It's really not that uncommon to have UUUU up along with the infinite mana, or not have the tutor for Cannon/Array and have to pass and then untap, or to have Oona in play already and have U or B up to complete the kill instead of adding another tutor, or generate infintie with Tidespout, which usually comes with colorless. Oona is also much better than the other choices at just wining on her own- she still a dragon that cuts off topdeck tutors, screws with draws in other ways, and generates chump blockers while killing in 5 swings. She's an absurd card even when not used as an inifinite mana dump/insta-kill. she's still far and away the best choice for general in this deck. The Goblin Cannon doesn't take anythign away from her IMHO- it just makes the overall deck (very slightly) better.
I am considering cutting Phantasmal Image for Phyrexian Metamorph. Slightly easier to cast, easier to recur (academy ruins) - yeah, Ima make this change when I get home.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I also changed out Phantasmal Image for Phyrexian Metamorph. Image was there mainly as a general-killer, and Metamorph only costs 1 more mana plus 2 life (or U), and can be cast without U mana, so it's functionally approximately as easy to cast. It is much easier to recur (Academy Ruins) or use to copy some absurd threat that an opponent manages to resolve. Doubling up on Memory Jar and Cloud Key has also come up and is predictably insane.
I'd like to find room for Chain of Vapor, but having issues deciding what to cut.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
Cut / Add
Strip Mine ---> Darkwater Catacombs
Necropotence ---> Recurring Insight
Memory Jar ---> Chain of Vapor
Fact or Fiction ---> Hyrkyll's Recall
Dark Confidant---> Mycosynth Lattice
Scroll Rack--- > Phantasmal Image
Tidespout Tyrant ---> Phyrexian Revoker
Flusterstorm---> River of Tears
Hinder--> Copy Artifact
Cryptic Command--> Diabolic Revelation
Force Spike ---> Mana Leak
This would result in a net change to the deck's CMC of -5, 8 instead of 11 counterspells, the Lattice + Hurkyll's alternate wincon instead of Tyrant as another way t go infinite, 4 fewer draw spells, an additional tutor, 4 additional answers, an additional land, and 1 fewer colorless land.
I loose Tyrant as a combo option, become slightly more vulnerable to Null Rod and the like, and loose the option to recur Memory Jar.
These changes make me want Cabal Ritual and Gilded Lotus back, plus thinking about Sculpting Steel. No idea what else to cut.
Thoughts?
Edit: also want to make room for Shred Memory again to add an additional percentage vs GY decks.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
That is surprising. I would think drawing 30 cards would almost always give a win on the next turn. How has it played out for you?
Also, how do you guys feel about oona compared to any other general/color combo that can also win from infinite mana, say the newer niv or any other possibilities that I haven''t necessarily researched yet. Green comes to mind with cards like tooth and nail tutoring palinchron and deadeye navigator.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
The problem is, you only get to keep 7 of them, you don't get them until end-step so you can't play out the fast mana you draw, and you need to keep protection in hand vs either counterspells, fast aggro, or both, especially leaving yourself at 10 life. It's very dis-synergistic with Ad Nauseum, which allows you to draw almost as many cards, but on your opponent's end step or upkeep (depending on what is most optimal), allowing you to untap with 30 cards in hand. THAT wins the game.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I do agree it is more risky. Although I wonder if 7 cards wouldn't be enough to win next turn? How many tutors/combo pieces would you need and how many spots does that leave for counterspells? I've never played a dedicated combo deck so my knowledge is limited here.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG