I've been tuning this deck for the past 2 months to be as competitive as possible in the metagame in which I play. Here's a brief summary:
1vs1 tournaments and multiplayer tournaments are both held. In many cases, it is not decided until the beginning of the tournament which format will be played. In both cases the RC banned list is in effect, 40 life, and the optional 10 card sideboard rule is used.
In 1vs 1, we usually play best 2 of 3 with SB after game 1, like a traditional constructed event.
Weird, right?
There are 5 or 6 other players who I would generally consider competitive enough to win one of these events, and we tend to get 18-30 players in total. Most are fairly random "theme" decks or modified Commander precons.
The competitive players tend to run the following:
Isamaru aggro-voltron, with the Scepter-Chant lock. This deck won the last 1vs1 tournament.
Krenko - this a very fast aggro deck that runs more like a combo deck. I've seen him kill the entire table on turn 5 with a massive horde of massive goblins.
Damia - typical BUG combo-control goodstuff list.
Mimeoplasm - not the hermit druid variant, but still essentially a combo-control deck that one-shots you with the general and plays permission.
Kaalia - removal heavy, some discard, and giant things to drop into play with the general
Rafiq Aggro Control (very typical build)
the last player runs something very very Johnny that can get out of hand quickly, but doesn't run more than 4 or 5 counterspells.
I have also seen good Uril voltron decks, Sharrum combo decks, and Karador decks before, as well as Azami once, but I don't really expect it.
The meta seems soft to a true combo deck with permission. Only Damia has a real counterspell compliment, and with Primetime banned, it will suffer from a lack of sufficent blue mana to push through more than 1 or 2 counters; It's also slow enough (the kill is Mike and Trike, usualy off Tooth and Nail) that it can't afford to run the Dispels and Flusterstorms of the world that are really backbreaking in a counterwar. None of these decks are fast enough to race a balls-out combo deck.
This category is largely self-explanatory. I'd love to add Cabal Ritual, but the decklist is pretty tight right now. Etherium Sculptors is often used in lists running the Future Sight combo, but it dies to a stiff breeze and I'd rather stick with more resilliant cards. Other cards considered: Coalition Relic (ultimately too slow), Chromatic Lantern (same), Worn Powerstone (same), Gilded Lotus (CMC too high re: Ad Nauseum)
Most of these are obvious auto-includes. Merchant Scroll might appear a bit Janky, but Scroll - Mystical Tutor is excellent at finding Ad Nauseum, and it's really good for getting bounce spells, finding countermagic if you want to protect "going off", or grabbing Stroke of Genius for the kill once Infinite Mana is achieved.
Praetor's Grasp - in a competitive metagame, this is usually just as good as demonic tutor (heck, you can just get tutor if against another B deck), plus the Extract option can be nice against other combo decks, especially if you can grab somethign like Grim Monolith to both stop them from going off with it, and eventualyl use it to go off yourself.
Other cards considered: Reshape (Transmute is actually better), Intuition (it's very good, but not beter than any of the options we have here I don't think), Diabolic Revelation (wins the game for 10UUBB (8BB to fetch monolith, power artifact, and Gemstone Array, then assemble infinite mana, filer, cast Oona), but ultimately that's too much mana, Diabolic Tutor (3 mana is generally where I like to draw the line at Sorcery Speed tutors), Shred Memory (still might bring this back for Merchant Scroll. I'm not fussy on Transmute, but if GY decks start showing up more it's nice to have an added margin), Lim Dul's Vault (the life loss adds up, and it is card disadvantage).
I'd love to add Imperial Seal (instead of Merchant Scroll) and Grim Tutor (perhaps over Praetor's Grasp), but I don;t one either one and out of budget for the time being.
Draw
This draw Suite is Sweet
I've eschewed some spells that seem like auto-includes in builds like this: Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Preordain and Fact or Fiction. I find that when I want to draw cards in this deck, I usually want to draw quite of few of them, refilling my hand after dropping a ****ton of mana rocks and the like. I wish the deck had room for these five spells, but everything else is much higher impact, Stroke is an alternate wincon, and Scroll Rack is like a one-sided draw 7 in mana cases, and has amazing synergy with Fetchlands. I've considered removing the Top combo (keeping Top in, but removing Cloud Key and Future Sight) as well as Dark Confidant for Brainstorm, Ponder and Fact or Fiction, but seems lower impact. Ad Nauseum is typically an early tutor target, and draws 15-20 cards safely most of the time (the average CMC of the deck, excluding Ad Nauseum itself, is 1.55, x 20 = 31 life lost, which is typically safe if played at end step, since you untap and win).
Other cards considered: Thirst for Knowledge (seems worse then the 5 I'm not currently running but that are next in line), Phyrexian Arena (Bob is cheaper, can block vs fast aggro, and is easier to kill off if it becomes a liability), Jace Beleren (again, seems worse than the other 5 cards, sorcery speed and CMC 3, also would have to draw into TMS with this on the table).
Power Artifact + Grim Monolith is the most efficient combo in the deck to produce infinite mana, at 2UU.
Gemstone Array is essentially Time Walk for colorless, allowing us to win without passing the turn. I'm hoping Gatecrach or the 3rd set of Ravinca black produces this:
Prismatic Mox
0
Legendary Artifact
1: add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool
Based on the "uncut mox" spoiler art. I HATE running Array, but it is very necessary.
I like Rings of Brighthearth more than I though I would. Obviously it is good to have to go off with Basalt Monolist (though this is very mana-intensive to get started compared to power artifact), but it also does nice things with Fetchlands and Strip Mine, and Tezzeret the Seeker.
Tidespout Tyrant is questionable. at 5UUU, it's the hardest card to cast in the entire deck. However, with all the fast artifact mana, it's virtually a one-card combo, since there are so many ways to produce infinite mana once it hits play. Even if you can't, it's an amazing card at controlling to board until you do draw into the win. I've considered replacing it with a different alternate win (such as Obeyline, whcih many Oona players run main, or Tendrils of Agony - though of course it has enormous synergy with Tendrils itself), but I'm still pretty happy with the broken Djinn. Right now, only 2 cards (power artifact and Gemstone Array) in the whole deck are dead outside of the combo - Obeyline adds a 3rd dead card, and Leyline is dead in many matchups as well, though it is amazing enough in some that it lives in the sideboard.
This is the part of the deck over which I have agonized the most. Right now, it is essentially divided into 3 parts: Free counters (FoW, Pact of Negation, Misdirection), which are IMHO auto-includes in combo decks, plus Misdirection is randomly completely absurd, Hard Counters (mana drain, counterspell, negate, cryptic command, Hinder), which are all pretty awesome. Cryptic is too expensive, but the fact that it can Fog or bounce something irritating makes it good enough. The last category is Conditional/Soft counters (Force Spike, Flusterstorm, Remand). These cards are great at winning counter wars and generating tempo, but not good at playing the long control game. This list is still not set in stone.
Other reasonable choices might include: Forbid, Memory Lapse, Complicate, Essence Scatter (depending on metagame), Spell Pierce, Daze, Arcane Denial, Etc...
I sure wish I felt like this list had room for Inquisition of Koilek, Hymn to Tourach, and Vendillion Clique in addition to these 3. Discard spells are really strong in combo decks, allowing for solutions to problems like Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm. Ultimately though, these 3 are the creme of the crop, and the only ones I could make room for.
This group of cards gives us a powerful and resilient suite of options to remove any problems. Executioner's Capsule is my super-secret tech in this section - Trinket Mage can find it, Academy Ruins can recur it to kill multiple mooks, it's a nice little doom blade in a box. Lilliana is excellent against decks like Uril and other voltron strategies. I knew I wanted a wrath, and originally ran Damnation, but there are many answers to Damnation and it's hard to recur. BSZ can be cast as many times as you need to tutor for it, it can be found with the CMC 2 Transmute tutors, can clear away token hordes more cheaply than Damnation in a pinch, kills Regenerators, Indestructibles, etc.... and is only bad vs Gaddock Teeg (against whom we have 3 sideboard wrath effects anyway). Phantasmal Image is much better vs the relevant Hexproof creatures in this format than an Edict effect, and can randomly be amazing with something huge on the board. Cyclonic Rift used to be Echoing Truth, and maybe still should be, but I like the way if allows me to answer any board state, no matter how complex and absurd it is. Since I do not run Tendrils, maybe Chain of Vapor should be Echoing Truth? (edit: made this change after some testing) Gilded Drake is amazing removal and a powerful 2 for 1, since the 3/3 flyer really isn't a real card against a deck like this. Pithing Needle fixes any number of problems, and Capsize can turn into a wincon with infinite mana.
This seems like a lot for a combo deck, and in fact it is. I find the fundamental turn of this deck tends to be turn 5 or so, although it is very capable of early kills and is the only deck in the format AFAIK that has multiple somewhat realistic turn 1 kill scenarios. Still, the fact that it is reliably a turn 5 deck means it is likely going to have to answer 1 or 2 problems before just winning. I tried builds with as few as 3 bullets and more tutors, focused on fast combo, but no matter how hard I tried Oona cannot be as fast as Hermit Druid (consistant turn 2 or 3), so giving it a much mroe robust control suite seems to be the better option.
The mana base is focused on color mana sources that can fix both colors, and avoids all but the best ETBT lands. Forbidden Orchard is randomly amazing vs Oath of Druids decks, and the drawback is less concerning in a fast combo deck like this. Only 2 lands are colorless since the deck is absurdly mana hungry for UB mana - strip mine is needed to answer problem lands, and Academy Ruins is a very powerful recursion option. Bojuka Bog is slow, but gives a strong maindeck option vs GY decks without using up a spell slot.
I know these builds traditionally run Seat of the Synod and Vault of Whispers for Trinket Mage targets, however there are already 3 Moxen, Lion's Eye Diamond, and several colorless sources for the mage to fetch if Ramp is desired. The extra vulnerability in the mana base is not really desirable, and the small marginal utility gained by having these as targets is outweighed in my opinion.
I started with 36 lands, and between the lands the and rocks consistantly flooded. 33 is VERY low, but between the 14 mana rocks and all the draw I'm convinced it;s the right number. I've been tuning this deck for approx 2 months.
We have 3 cards vs heavy countermagic decks, 3 vs G and W aggro decks, which can also be good vs nonesense like Uril and Krenko (Infest should likely be Propaganda instead - edit: made this change), 1 vs Artifact garbage, and 2 pieces of strong GY hate, plus the Helm to bring in to add another combo kill vs those decks as they tend to be fast. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Mindbreak Trap are likely the next two cards I'd consider here.
Questions:
What do you think of the silver bullets present, and the sideboard given the expected metagame?
I'm most worried about Krenko. The deck is very fast, consistent, and resiliiant. What is the best answer to him?
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The Oona list here: 1vs1 Compendium was the starting point for this list.
Change Log
Nov 22, 2012
Cu Phantasmal Image and Gemstone Array for Phyrexian Metamorph and Goblin Cannon
First of all, nice list. You've obviously put a lot of thought into your card choices and presented them well.
Questions:
What do you think of the silver bullets present, and the sideboard given the expected metagame?
Tendrils of Agony - is it worth it - where would you put it?
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - how backbreaking is this for aggro decks? Do you think it's worth it?
I'm most worried about Krenko. The deck is very fast, consistent, and resiliiant. What is the best answer to him?
Your silver bullets seem solid based on your description of your metagame.
I agree that Krenko is a hard match-up for us, since, as hard as it is to believe, a tuned deck can actually race us, especially 1v1 given that we like to use our life as a resource. In my list, I rely on Black Sun's Zenith and Oblivion Stone primarily to deal with Krenko/Edric/other token decks. I like the re-usability of BSZ, and the fact that I try to run as many 2 CMC answers as I can for my transmuters, which gives BSZ the nod over Damnation for me. Although it's a bit expensive CMC-wise, All is Dust is pretty one-sided for us to run, and we do run a lot of mana producers. You can probably ramp up to 7 before the Krenko guy kills you, but it may not be enough if you have nowhere to go from there. All is Dust is also pretty useful again other non-artifact decks, even voltron shrouded generals, since they're sacrificed and not destroyed. The only reason I don't run it personally is that I hate flipping it to Ad Nauseam when I don't need, but it may be worth it in your meta to have another versatile, almost-one-sided answer.
I personally don't think Tendrils of Agony is worth it, since you really have to set it up right to make sure your storm count is high enough to be worthwhile. I run Exsanguinate instead in my list, mostly because I can tutor for it with transmuters if I need it. Even still, I very, very rarely use it to win, and may swap it out of my list for something else...like Scroll Rack...thanks for reminding me of it
I also don't really think that The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is worth a spot either if you're wanting to put it in there to deal with Krenko. The Krenko lists I play against have several ways to give the gobbos haste. If you also are worried about Edric or other token swarm decks, it could be worth it though. I have never tested this card, and don't own one, so I could be totally wrong, but my gut tells me it's not worth it for Krenko.
Propaganda seems like it would be somewhat absurd vs Krenko though the more I think about it. He doesn't really have any utility guys we have to kill, none of his guys stop us from winning in any way, we just need to survive long enough to beat him. It absolutely kills his tempo to attack through it (especially since the lists I've seen have been fairly mana-lite), and he can't swarn with 50 gobbos at all. Plus being an enchantment he has like, what? two cards that can get rid of it, assuming Chaos Warp and a sweeper, if his sweeper even hits enchantments. That said, this is all theory craft, I've only played against Krenko twice - we don't tend to whip out our cutthroat decks much. what does your experience tell you?
I think I'll be including Propaganda is the sideboard.
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Vs Krenko/token swarms do you think Jace, Architect of Thought is too slow/weak? I had good experience with him in another deck but haven't tested him in Oona. His - ability is always good as well.
Vs Krenko/token swarms do you think Jace, Architect of Thought is too slow/weak? I had good experience with him in another deck but haven't tested him in Oona. His - ability is always good as well.
My concern is that the gobbo decks at least have half a dozen lords kicking around, so the attackers often have 2-4 power rather than just 1. I opened a Jace in draft last week and it was my first thought as well, but I'm concerned that it just doesn't do quite enough, especially given CMC 4 for Ad Nauseum purposes.
I noticed you guys run more lands. Don't you find yourselves flooding out quite a bit?
Never tested Tidespout, it's on a short list of cards that will be. Is it really that great for you? I've heard mixed things.
Is 33 lands enough? I've always been kind of scared to drop lower than 35. I suppose putting in Lotus Petal or something might be good. I'll add that to my "test list". I recently started playing this deck again after a few month break and I need to relearn how to do everything. It's incredibly mentally taxing to play right.
The goblin lords were a concern of mine as well, but even with 1 out I think Jace could buy you a turn or two and isn't that all Oona needs half the time?\
You run a lot of islands. have you considered trying to go pure singleton with all the blue producing legendaries that come into play untapped so you can run Tainted Pact? The card is absolutely insane.
Never tested Tidespout, it's on a short list of cards that will be. Is it really that great for you? I've heard mixed things.
Is 33 lands enough? I've always been kind of scared to drop lower than 35. I suppose putting in Lotus Petal or something might be good. I'll add that to my "test list". I recently started playing this deck again after a few month break and I need to relearn how to do everything. It's incredibly mentally taxing to play right.
The goblin lords were a concern of mine as well, but even with 1 out I think Jace could buy you a turn or two and isn't that all Oona needs half the time?\
You run a lot of islands. have you considered trying to go pure singleton with all the blue producing legendaries that come into play untapped so you can run Tainted Pact? The card is absolutely insane.
The thing I like about Tidespout is that, with all the mana rocks here, it's practically a one-card combo. There are very few board states in which it doesn't immediately go infinite, and if it doesn't, it allows you an absurd amount of control over the board.
Note: I've been tuning this deck for 2 months, but it's all theorycraft at this point, I haven't been able to get in many real games. Our group generally doesn't whip out decks like this unless there is a tournament with serious prizes going on.
We use the very generous free mulligan, then Paris rule, so 33 has been fine for me. In over 200 goldfishes, I have not been mana-screwed once. Petal is much better in my list due to Tidespout, but i think it's good enough in general.
Maybe Jace is worth testing.
Non-basic land hate is a definite thing in my metagame. It's a nice idea and Tainted Pact seems absurd, but there are too many Blood Moons, Magus of the Moon, Back to Basics, Ruination, etc.... to make 2 basics a viable mana base.
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The thing I like about Tidespout is that, with all the mana rocks here, it's practically a one-card combo. There are very few board states in which it doesn't immediately go infinite, and if it doesn't, it allows you an absurd amount of control over the board.
Note: I've been tuning this deck for 2 months, but it's all theorycraft at this point, I haven't been able to get in many real games. Our group generally doesn't whip out decks like this unless there is a tournament with serious prizes going on.
We use the very generous free mulligan, then Paris rule, so 33 has been fine for me. In over 200 goldfishes, I have not been mana-screwed once. Petal is much better in my list due to Tidespout, but i think it's good enough in general.
Maybe Jace is worth testing.
Non-basic land hate is a definite thing in my metagame. It's a nice idea and Tainted Pact seems absurd, but there are too many Blood Moons, Magus of the Moon, Back to Basics, Ruination, etc.... to make 2 basics a viable mana base.
This deck as a whole is a HUGE theorycrafting mess. That's why I love it. But actually having other people who run it helps as even the slightest difference in the deck makes it flow differently.
I run 4 basics. Island, Snow Island, Swamp, Snow Swamp. But non-basic hate in my meta is more limited so I can definitely see wanting more. u/b doesn't exactly have the best enchantment removal for B2B or Blood Moon. If your meta ever rotates away from the hate give the Pact a shot.
While these changes have increased the average CMC of the deck by 0.03, Echoing Truth is a mini-wrath vs token swarms and this offers more marginal utility than the seldom-used tactic of bouncing my own stuff with Chain of Vapor, Hinder is more expensive than mana leak but obviously busted vs Voltron generals and nonsense like Krenko, and Propaganda is MUCH better than Infest against aggro swarm decks. Neither is all that great against Voltron, but at least Propaganda offers some tempo.
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If you're still having trouble with Krenko consider Tainted Aether. Mono-red has almost no ways of removing it and it will make it nearly impossible for him to play effectively. I feel dumb for not mentioning it earlier.
If you're still having trouble with Krenko consider Tainted Aether. Mono-red has almost no ways of removing it and it will make it nearly impossible for him to play effectively. I feel dumb for not mentioning it earlier.
My god that's INSANE!!!! I never knew that card existed! Nice call, that makes the board for Sure, Propaganda still seems clutch as well though, not 100% sure what I'll cut.
I guess where you're going with Spell Crumple is that it then becomes available to tutor up again (or just draw after fetching)? I'm not sure which is better. On the one hand, this is a nice feature. On the other hand, Snapcaster is a thing, and I'm not sure how often I find myself tutoring for this kind of counterspell. finally, Hinder does have the option of being played as Memory Lapse if you just need to tempo them out for a turn and make it impossible for them to draw a one-outer.
Hmmmm....
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I'll be honest, I cannot see ever using Hinder as a Lapse. With Crumple vs Hinder it's really dependent on how much draw you run I think. More draw = more chance to re-get Crumple. Snapcaster will always have other targets. At least that's been my reasoning, not that you'll re-draw the crumple again often, so it's kind of a moot point.
I actually just noticed you don't use the Leyline+Helm combo. Any reason? I've always found it absolutely wonderful because it wins AND Leyline completely hoses so many nasty things in EDH.
I'll be honest, I cannot see ever using Hinder as a Lapse. With Crumple vs Hinder it's really dependent on how much draw you run I think. More draw = more chance to re-get Crumple. Snapcaster will always have other targets. At least that's been my reasoning, not that you'll re-draw the crumple again often, so it's kind of a moot point.
I actually just noticed you don't use the Leyline+Helm combo. Any reason? I've always found it absolutely wonderful because it wins AND Leyline completely hoses so many nasty things in EDH.
It's in the board. Helm is very dead on its own, and most of the decks in my area are not GY based. I put the helm in the board along with the line, since obviously I want it vs GY decks, but there are few enough of them that I'd rather save the dead slots maindeck in most matchups. Hermit Druid is tahnkfully absent from my metagame, otherwise it might be worth it.
It's a reasonable point regarding crumple. I do have three kicking around not in any decks right now. The marginal utility is probably higher. Nice suggestion!
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I just wanted to chime in here and say that I think that Propaganda is an excellent solution to the Krenko problem (or other swarm strategies). The tuned Krenko lists are light on mana, and have almost nothing for enchantment removal. It seems like a complete hoser for them.
Also, at the moment I personally would run Artificer's Intuition instead of Trinket Mage, since it's a repeatable effect and an enchantment, and we run a lot of artifacts. It can't get our combo pieces, per say, but it does grab a host of other good things, even an on-color producing land if you're running Seat of the Synod or Vault of Whispers. It might be worth consideration, and I just started testing this myself, so we'll see if it's worth running.
I just wanted to chime in here and say that I think that Propaganda is an excellent solution to the Krenko problem (or other swarm strategies). The tuned Krenko lists are light on mana, and have almost nothing for enchantment removal. It seems like a complete hoser for them.
Also, I personally would prefer to run Artificer's Intuition instead of Trinket Mage, since it's a repeatable effect and an enchantment, and we run a lot of artifacts. It can't get our combo pieces, per say, but it does grab a host of other good things, even a land if you're running Seat of the Synod or Vault of Whispers. It might be worth consideration, and I just started testing this myself, so we'll see if it's worth running.
I was debating what to take out if your Artificer's Intuition testing goes. Trinket mage seems like the perfect choice, but I'll need to see if the Intuition is good consistently.
Edit: Alright, what do you guys think of replacing Gemstone Array with Mycosynth Lattice? It serves the same function and would allow some absurd things with Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild, both cards which could be used as amazing "oh ****" buttons vs things like Vandalblast or artifact exiling. They are also excellent at slowing down OTHER artifact based combo decks. Thoughts?
Alright, what do you guys think of replacing Gemstone Array with Mycosynth Lattice? It serves the same function and would allow some absurd things with Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild, both cards which could be used as amazing "oh ****" buttons vs things like Vandalblast or artifact exiling. They are also excellent at slowing down OTHER artifact based combo decks. Thoughts?
Well, the only time I ever play Gemstone Array, I already have infinite colorless mana, so running Mycosynth Lattice in it's spot shouldn't make a difference. The extra 2 mana shouldn't make or break you off of Ad Nauseam, and if you're already running Hurkl's Recall and Rebuild, it does make sense to favor the Lattice over Gemstone Array. It's definitely worth testing out, and I don't see much of a downside. Good idea.
Well, the only time I ever play Gemstone Array, I already have infinite colorless mana, so running Mycosynth Lattice in it's spot shouldn't make a difference. The extra 2 mana shouldn't make or break you off of Ad Nauseam, and if you're already running Hurkl's Recall and Rebuild, it does make sense to favor the Lattice over Gemstone Array. It's definitely worth testing out, and I don't see much of a downside. Good idea.
The only downside I see is that it leaves you actually dead to Null Rod effects whereas now we can just bounce it and move on when we're ready to combo. Also, while 2 mana isn't that much in the overall scheme of things, since our average CMC is under 2, that means that every time we hit it on ad nauseum, we're drawing 2-3 fewer cards. All this for the marginal benefit of being able to cast upheaval as an 8 mana 2 card combo. Not seeing it as worth it.
In the meanwhile, Necrologia. It's Ad Nauseum except every card costs 1. Have to end-step it, which sucks since we don't have that much we can cast at Sorcery speed, but seems INSANE. Thoughts? Does this make Reliquary Tower worth running?
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I don't think I could cut Reliquary Tower. With Necropotence and AN not having to discard has been very helpful at times. Necrologia is basically a 1 turn Necropotence, probably worth testing.
Reliquary Tower is in my list, and I can't imagine cutting it. There have been many games I've played where having it has been absolutely awesome with either Necropotence or AN. Of course, it only taps for colorless, and Oona is a colored-mana hog, so the argument could be made based on this that you shouldn't run it. I totally disagree with this argument, though. It's just too good at what it does. I even go so far as to run Tolaria West just to fetch Reliquary Tower, but this is probably going to far (if I'm honest with myself) for a comes-into-play-tapped land.
All of that said, I can definitely see choosing to run Necrologia as a third draw-cards-pay-life effect. When I've tested this card in the past, though, I've been a bit let down, since 99% of the time you don't have Reliquary Tower and you'll have to discard down to seven, without getting to play any of those cards. Sometimes seven cards just isn't enough to reliably get there with multiple opponents and countermagic. Necrologia is orders of magnitudes inferior to Ad Nauseam in this respect, since you typically cast AN at EOT and start your turn with a mit-ful of cards to go off, most likely with all of the countermagic protection you need to make you unstoppable. This typically won't happen with Necrologia. With Reliquary Tower, however, Necrologia is probably better than Ad Nauseam. I should really test it out again.
The only downside I see is that it leaves you actually dead to Null Rod effects whereas now we can just bounce it and move on when we're ready to combo. Also, while 2 mana isn't that much in the overall scheme of things, since our average CMC is under 2, that means that every time we hit it on ad nauseum, we're drawing 2-3 fewer cards. All this for the marginal benefit of being able to cast upheaval as an 8 mana 2 card combo. Not seeing it as worth it.
I think this post gets to the key idea to efficient combo deck-building that I have to remind myself constantly: when at all possible each card included that is part of a combo or mini-combo in your deck should also be great on its own. Hurkyl's Recall by itself is good and versatile. You can tutor for it and deal with that annoying Arcum player, or you can bounce your own combo pieces when you aren't holding a counterspell and someone's messing with your stuff, or you can use it to "get there" mana-wise with your cheap mana-rocks in a pinch. Mycosynth Lattice is a substitute for Gemstone Array, and fills a vital finishing role in our lists since Oona needs colored mana. So, I think if you run a list where you choose to include Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild, then running Mycosynth Lattice over Gemstone Array is a good call, since you are only adding more synergy to your deck, and not taking anything away. You are only adding a net 2 to the overall CMC of your list. If you are not choosing to run Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild, then Mycosynth Lattice doesn't seem worth the substitution for Gemstone Array to me either.
I guess if you're already running Hurkyl's. I'm not entirely convinced that the extra 2 mana in Ad Nauseum is actually worth it, but I tend to get unlucky on Ad Nauseum anyway. Arcum is completely absent fom my metagame - it's not even on the radar, and generally I think Hurkyl's is not good vs Sharrum (which is rarely there anyway), so I'm not running it.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A little nonsense now and then is cherished by the wisest men."
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I guess if you're already running Hurkyl's. I'm not entirely convinced that the extra 2 mana in Ad Nauseum is actually worth it, but I tend to get unlucky on Ad Nauseum anyway. Arcum is completely absent fom my metagame - it's not even on the radar, and generally I think Hurkyl's is not good vs Sharrum (which is rarely there anyway), so I'm not running it.
Good points. It really is a metagame call at some point. I think I'd be tempted to run Rebuild instead of Recall.
1) Play chain of vapor. It is by far and away the strongest bounce spell.
2) Cut force spike, it's very bad.
3) Cut gemstone/lattis reasons are as follows.
A) Goblin cannon is strictly better and it's abysmally terribad.
B) For a measly one more colored mana increasing ambition fetches guilded lotus which taps for black fetching sculpting steel and phyrexian metamorph for 8 colored killing 5 other players. (Or get tidesprout + sculpting steel for infinite colorless) Gemstones is bad. Cut it for something.
4) Consider playing more basics in order to utilize lake of the dead. It's very strong.
1) Play chain of vapor. It is by far and away the strongest bounce spell.
2) Cut force spike, it's very bad.
3) Cut gemstone/lattis reasons are as follows.
A) Goblin cannon is strictly better and it's abysmally terribad.
B) For a measly one more colored mana increasing ambition fetches guilded lotus which taps for black fetching sculpting steel and phyrexian metamorph for 8 colored killing 5 other players. (Or get tidesprout + sculpting steel for infinite colorless) Gemstones is bad. Cut it for something.
4) Consider playing more basics in order to utilize lake of the dead. It's very strong.
Agreed on points 1 and 2.
We CAN NOT cut gemstone/lattice. Oona is absurdly mana/color hungry. There is quite literally no way to go off some games without the fixing of those cards. In fact I run Beseech the Queen just because it is a colorless tutor for Gemstone. But no, it can not be done. It is as much of a staple as Power Artifact.
1vs1 tournaments and multiplayer tournaments are both held. In many cases, it is not decided until the beginning of the tournament which format will be played. In both cases the RC banned list is in effect, 40 life, and the optional 10 card sideboard rule is used.
In 1vs 1, we usually play best 2 of 3 with SB after game 1, like a traditional constructed event.
Weird, right?
There are 5 or 6 other players who I would generally consider competitive enough to win one of these events, and we tend to get 18-30 players in total. Most are fairly random "theme" decks or modified Commander precons.
The competitive players tend to run the following:
Isamaru aggro-voltron, with the Scepter-Chant lock. This deck won the last 1vs1 tournament.
Krenko - this a very fast aggro deck that runs more like a combo deck. I've seen him kill the entire table on turn 5 with a massive horde of massive goblins.
Damia - typical BUG combo-control goodstuff list.
Mimeoplasm - not the hermit druid variant, but still essentially a combo-control deck that one-shots you with the general and plays permission.
Kaalia - removal heavy, some discard, and giant things to drop into play with the general
Rafiq Aggro Control (very typical build)
the last player runs something very very Johnny that can get out of hand quickly, but doesn't run more than 4 or 5 counterspells.
I have also seen good Uril voltron decks, Sharrum combo decks, and Karador decks before, as well as Azami once, but I don't really expect it.
The meta seems soft to a true combo deck with permission. Only Damia has a real counterspell compliment, and with Primetime banned, it will suffer from a lack of sufficent blue mana to push through more than 1 or 2 counters; It's also slow enough (the kill is Mike and Trike, usualy off Tooth and Nail) that it can't afford to run the Dispels and Flusterstorms of the world that are really backbreaking in a counterwar. None of these decks are fast enough to race a balls-out combo deck.
Here's the list I'm working with:
0 Mox Diamond
0 Chrome Mox
0 Lotus Petal
0 Lion's Eye Diamond
0 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Vault
2 Dimir Signet
2 Grim Monolith
2 Talisman of Dominanace
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Cloud Key
5 Gilded Lotus
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Transmute Artifact
2 Shred Memory
3 Fabricate
3 Beseech the Queen
3 Trinket Mage
3 Praetor's Grasp
4 Mystical Teachings
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
5 Diabolic Revelations
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Stroke of Genius
3 Timetwister
3 Necropotence
5 Future Sight
5 Ad Nauseum
6 Time Spiral
2 Power Artifact
3 Rings of Brighthearth
4 Goblin Cannon
4 Tendrils of Agony
6 Mycosynth Lattice
0 Pact of Negation
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Mana Drain
2 Counterspell
2 Negate
3 Spell Crumple
5 Misdirection
5 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Pithing Needle
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Echoing Truth
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Gilded Drake
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Capsize
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Yawgmoth's Will
0 Polluted Delta
0 Flooded Strand
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Marsh Flats
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Underground Sea
0 Watery Grave
0 Command Tower
0 Underground River
0 City of Brass
0 Drowned Catacomb
0 Sunken Ruins
0 Forbidden Orchard
0 Creeping Tar Pit
0 Jwar Island Refuge
0 Reflecting Pool
0 Salt Marsh
0 Secluded Glen
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Tolaria West
0 Bojuka Bog
0 Academy Ruins
8 Island
2 Swamp
1 Dispel
2 Torpor Orb
2 Defense Grid
3 Virtue's Ruin
3 Propaganda
2 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Helm of Obedience
1 Nhilil Spellbomb
4 Leyline of the Void
You know how the deck wins:
Power Artifact + Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith
Rings of Brighthearth + Basalt Monolith
Into infinite mana and then either Oona or Stroke of Genius.
Also can Assemble Future Sight + Cloud Key + Sensei's Top to draw entire deck, and storm out with Tendrils of Agony
Also Mycosynth Lattice + Hurkyl's Recall takes a player out of the game.
Card Choices
Note; this section is a bit out of date right now. Will update when possible.
Fast Mana
This category is largely self-explanatory. I'd love to add Cabal Ritual, but the decklist is pretty tight right now. Etherium Sculptors is often used in lists running the Future Sight combo, but it dies to a stiff breeze and I'd rather stick with more resilliant cards. Other cards considered: Coalition Relic (ultimately too slow), Chromatic Lantern (same), Worn Powerstone (same), Gilded Lotus (CMC too high re: Ad Nauseum)
Tutors
Most of these are obvious auto-includes.
Merchant Scroll might appear a bit Janky, but Scroll - Mystical Tutor is excellent at finding Ad Nauseum, and it's really good for getting bounce spells, finding countermagic if you want to protect "going off", or grabbing Stroke of Genius for the kill once Infinite Mana is achieved.
Praetor's Grasp - in a competitive metagame, this is usually just as good as demonic tutor (heck, you can just get tutor if against another B deck), plus the Extract option can be nice against other combo decks, especially if you can grab somethign like Grim Monolith to both stop them from going off with it, and eventualyl use it to go off yourself.
Other cards considered: Reshape (Transmute is actually better), Intuition (it's very good, but not beter than any of the options we have here I don't think), Diabolic Revelation (wins the game for 10UUBB (8BB to fetch monolith, power artifact, and Gemstone Array, then assemble infinite mana, filer, cast Oona), but ultimately that's too much mana, Diabolic Tutor (3 mana is generally where I like to draw the line at Sorcery Speed tutors), Shred Memory (still might bring this back for Merchant Scroll. I'm not fussy on Transmute, but if GY decks start showing up more it's nice to have an added margin), Lim Dul's Vault (the life loss adds up, and it is card disadvantage).
I'd love to add Imperial Seal (instead of Merchant Scroll) and Grim Tutor (perhaps over Praetor's Grasp), but I don;t one either one and out of budget for the time being.
Draw
This draw Suite is Sweet
I've eschewed some spells that seem like auto-includes in builds like this: Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Preordain and Fact or Fiction. I find that when I want to draw cards in this deck, I usually want to draw quite of few of them, refilling my hand after dropping a ****ton of mana rocks and the like. I wish the deck had room for these five spells, but everything else is much higher impact, Stroke is an alternate wincon, and Scroll Rack is like a one-sided draw 7 in mana cases, and has amazing synergy with Fetchlands. I've considered removing the Top combo (keeping Top in, but removing Cloud Key and Future Sight) as well as Dark Confidant for Brainstorm, Ponder and Fact or Fiction, but seems lower impact. Ad Nauseum is typically an early tutor target, and draws 15-20 cards safely most of the time (the average CMC of the deck, excluding Ad Nauseum itself, is 1.55, x 20 = 31 life lost, which is typically safe if played at end step, since you untap and win).
Other cards considered: Thirst for Knowledge (seems worse then the 5 I'm not currently running but that are next in line), Phyrexian Arena (Bob is cheaper, can block vs fast aggro, and is easier to kill off if it becomes a liability), Jace Beleren (again, seems worse than the other 5 cards, sorcery speed and CMC 3, also would have to draw into TMS with this on the table).
Combo Pieces
Power Artifact + Grim Monolith is the most efficient combo in the deck to produce infinite mana, at 2UU.
Gemstone Array is essentially Time Walk for colorless, allowing us to win without passing the turn. I'm hoping Gatecrach or the 3rd set of Ravinca black produces this:
Prismatic Mox
0
Legendary Artifact
1: add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool
Based on the "uncut mox" spoiler art. I HATE running Array, but it is very necessary.
I like Rings of Brighthearth more than I though I would. Obviously it is good to have to go off with Basalt Monolist (though this is very mana-intensive to get started compared to power artifact), but it also does nice things with Fetchlands and Strip Mine, and Tezzeret the Seeker.
Tidespout Tyrant is questionable. at 5UUU, it's the hardest card to cast in the entire deck. However, with all the fast artifact mana, it's virtually a one-card combo, since there are so many ways to produce infinite mana once it hits play. Even if you can't, it's an amazing card at controlling to board until you do draw into the win. I've considered replacing it with a different alternate win (such as Obeyline, whcih many Oona players run main, or Tendrils of Agony - though of course it has enormous synergy with Tendrils itself), but I'm still pretty happy with the broken Djinn. Right now, only 2 cards (power artifact and Gemstone Array) in the whole deck are dead outside of the combo - Obeyline adds a 3rd dead card, and Leyline is dead in many matchups as well, though it is amazing enough in some that it lives in the sideboard.
Permission
This is the part of the deck over which I have agonized the most. Right now, it is essentially divided into 3 parts: Free counters (FoW, Pact of Negation, Misdirection), which are IMHO auto-includes in combo decks, plus Misdirection is randomly completely absurd, Hard Counters (mana drain, counterspell, negate, cryptic command, Hinder), which are all pretty awesome. Cryptic is too expensive, but the fact that it can Fog or bounce something irritating makes it good enough. The last category is Conditional/Soft counters (Force Spike, Flusterstorm, Remand). These cards are great at winning counter wars and generating tempo, but not good at playing the long control game. This list is still not set in stone.
Other reasonable choices might include: Forbid, Memory Lapse, Complicate, Essence Scatter (depending on metagame), Spell Pierce, Daze, Arcane Denial, Etc...
Discard
I sure wish I felt like this list had room for Inquisition of Koilek, Hymn to Tourach, and Vendillion Clique in addition to these 3. Discard spells are really strong in combo decks, allowing for solutions to problems like Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm. Ultimately though, these 3 are the creme of the crop, and the only ones I could make room for.
Silver Bullets
This group of cards gives us a powerful and resilient suite of options to remove any problems. Executioner's Capsule is my super-secret tech in this section - Trinket Mage can find it, Academy Ruins can recur it to kill multiple mooks, it's a nice little doom blade in a box. Lilliana is excellent against decks like Uril and other voltron strategies. I knew I wanted a wrath, and originally ran Damnation, but there are many answers to Damnation and it's hard to recur. BSZ can be cast as many times as you need to tutor for it, it can be found with the CMC 2 Transmute tutors, can clear away token hordes more cheaply than Damnation in a pinch, kills Regenerators, Indestructibles, etc.... and is only bad vs Gaddock Teeg (against whom we have 3 sideboard wrath effects anyway). Phantasmal Image is much better vs the relevant Hexproof creatures in this format than an Edict effect, and can randomly be amazing with something huge on the board. Cyclonic Rift used to be Echoing Truth, and maybe still should be, but I like the way if allows me to answer any board state, no matter how complex and absurd it is. Since I do not run Tendrils, maybe Chain of Vapor should be Echoing Truth? (edit: made this change after some testing) Gilded Drake is amazing removal and a powerful 2 for 1, since the 3/3 flyer really isn't a real card against a deck like this. Pithing Needle fixes any number of problems, and Capsize can turn into a wincon with infinite mana.
This seems like a lot for a combo deck, and in fact it is. I find the fundamental turn of this deck tends to be turn 5 or so, although it is very capable of early kills and is the only deck in the format AFAIK that has multiple somewhat realistic turn 1 kill scenarios. Still, the fact that it is reliably a turn 5 deck means it is likely going to have to answer 1 or 2 problems before just winning. I tried builds with as few as 3 bullets and more tutors, focused on fast combo, but no matter how hard I tried Oona cannot be as fast as Hermit Druid (consistant turn 2 or 3), so giving it a much mroe robust control suite seems to be the better option.
Recursion
These are the best regrowth effects available in these colours. Theya re extremely versatile and powerful cards. Basically self-explanatory.
Land
The mana base is focused on color mana sources that can fix both colors, and avoids all but the best ETBT lands. Forbidden Orchard is randomly amazing vs Oath of Druids decks, and the drawback is less concerning in a fast combo deck like this. Only 2 lands are colorless since the deck is absurdly mana hungry for UB mana - strip mine is needed to answer problem lands, and Academy Ruins is a very powerful recursion option. Bojuka Bog is slow, but gives a strong maindeck option vs GY decks without using up a spell slot.
I know these builds traditionally run Seat of the Synod and Vault of Whispers for Trinket Mage targets, however there are already 3 Moxen, Lion's Eye Diamond, and several colorless sources for the mage to fetch if Ramp is desired. The extra vulnerability in the mana base is not really desirable, and the small marginal utility gained by having these as targets is outweighed in my opinion.
I started with 36 lands, and between the lands the and rocks consistantly flooded. 33 is VERY low, but between the 14 mana rocks and all the draw I'm convinced it;s the right number. I've been tuning this deck for approx 2 months.
Sideboard
We have 3 cards vs heavy countermagic decks, 3 vs G and W aggro decks, which can also be good vs nonesense like Uril and Krenko (Infest should likely be Propaganda instead - edit: made this change), 1 vs Artifact garbage, and 2 pieces of strong GY hate, plus the Helm to bring in to add another combo kill vs those decks as they tend to be fast. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Mindbreak Trap are likely the next two cards I'd consider here.
Questions:
What do you think of the silver bullets present, and the sideboard given the expected metagame?
Tendrils of Agony - is it worth it - where would you put it?
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - how backbreaking is this for aggro decks? Do you think it's worth it?
I'm most worried about Krenko. The deck is very fast, consistent, and resiliiant. What is the best answer to him?
_____________________________________________________________________________________
The Oona list here: 1vs1 Compendium was the starting point for this list.
Change Log
Nov 22, 2012
Cu Phantasmal Image and Gemstone Array for Phyrexian Metamorph and Goblin Cannon
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I'll read the post in more detail in a little bit but it's great to see another hardcore Oona player.
In regards to your silver bullets, they look excellent and I've had great success with a similar suite.
Your silver bullets seem solid based on your description of your metagame.
I agree that Krenko is a hard match-up for us, since, as hard as it is to believe, a tuned deck can actually race us, especially 1v1 given that we like to use our life as a resource. In my list, I rely on Black Sun's Zenith and Oblivion Stone primarily to deal with Krenko/Edric/other token decks. I like the re-usability of BSZ, and the fact that I try to run as many 2 CMC answers as I can for my transmuters, which gives BSZ the nod over Damnation for me. Although it's a bit expensive CMC-wise, All is Dust is pretty one-sided for us to run, and we do run a lot of mana producers. You can probably ramp up to 7 before the Krenko guy kills you, but it may not be enough if you have nowhere to go from there. All is Dust is also pretty useful again other non-artifact decks, even voltron shrouded generals, since they're sacrificed and not destroyed. The only reason I don't run it personally is that I hate flipping it to Ad Nauseam when I don't need, but it may be worth it in your meta to have another versatile, almost-one-sided answer.
I personally don't think Tendrils of Agony is worth it, since you really have to set it up right to make sure your storm count is high enough to be worthwhile. I run Exsanguinate instead in my list, mostly because I can tutor for it with transmuters if I need it. Even still, I very, very rarely use it to win, and may swap it out of my list for something else...like Scroll Rack...thanks for reminding me of it
I also don't really think that The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is worth a spot either if you're wanting to put it in there to deal with Krenko. The Krenko lists I play against have several ways to give the gobbos haste. If you also are worried about Edric or other token swarm decks, it could be worth it though. I have never tested this card, and don't own one, so I could be totally wrong, but my gut tells me it's not worth it for Krenko.
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
I think I'll be including Propaganda is the sideboard.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
My concern is that the gobbo decks at least have half a dozen lords kicking around, so the attackers often have 2-4 power rather than just 1. I opened a Jace in draft last week and it was my first thought as well, but I'm concerned that it just doesn't do quite enough, especially given CMC 4 for Ad Nauseum purposes.
I noticed you guys run more lands. Don't you find yourselves flooding out quite a bit?
Ever tested Tidespout Tyrant?
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
Is 33 lands enough? I've always been kind of scared to drop lower than 35. I suppose putting in Lotus Petal or something might be good. I'll add that to my "test list". I recently started playing this deck again after a few month break and I need to relearn how to do everything. It's incredibly mentally taxing to play right.
The goblin lords were a concern of mine as well, but even with 1 out I think Jace could buy you a turn or two and isn't that all Oona needs half the time?\
You run a lot of islands. have you considered trying to go pure singleton with all the blue producing legendaries that come into play untapped so you can run Tainted Pact? The card is absolutely insane.
The thing I like about Tidespout is that, with all the mana rocks here, it's practically a one-card combo. There are very few board states in which it doesn't immediately go infinite, and if it doesn't, it allows you an absurd amount of control over the board.
Note: I've been tuning this deck for 2 months, but it's all theorycraft at this point, I haven't been able to get in many real games. Our group generally doesn't whip out decks like this unless there is a tournament with serious prizes going on.
We use the very generous free mulligan, then Paris rule, so 33 has been fine for me. In over 200 goldfishes, I have not been mana-screwed once. Petal is much better in my list due to Tidespout, but i think it's good enough in general.
Maybe Jace is worth testing.
Non-basic land hate is a definite thing in my metagame. It's a nice idea and Tainted Pact seems absurd, but there are too many Blood Moons, Magus of the Moon, Back to Basics, Ruination, etc.... to make 2 basics a viable mana base.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
This deck as a whole is a HUGE theorycrafting mess. That's why I love it. But actually having other people who run it helps as even the slightest difference in the deck makes it flow differently.
I run 4 basics. Island, Snow Island, Swamp, Snow Swamp. But non-basic hate in my meta is more limited so I can definitely see wanting more. u/b doesn't exactly have the best enchantment removal for B2B or Blood Moon. If your meta ever rotates away from the hate give the Pact a shot.
- Mana Leak
- Infest (Sideboard)
+ Echoing Truth
+ Hinder
+ Propaganda (sideboard)
While these changes have increased the average CMC of the deck by 0.03, Echoing Truth is a mini-wrath vs token swarms and this offers more marginal utility than the seldom-used tactic of bouncing my own stuff with Chain of Vapor, Hinder is more expensive than mana leak but obviously busted vs Voltron generals and nonsense like Krenko, and Propaganda is MUCH better than Infest against aggro swarm decks. Neither is all that great against Voltron, but at least Propaganda offers some tempo.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
If you're still having trouble with Krenko consider Tainted Aether. Mono-red has almost no ways of removing it and it will make it nearly impossible for him to play effectively. I feel dumb for not mentioning it earlier.
My god that's INSANE!!!! I never knew that card existed! Nice call, that makes the board for Sure, Propaganda still seems clutch as well though, not 100% sure what I'll cut.
I guess where you're going with Spell Crumple is that it then becomes available to tutor up again (or just draw after fetching)? I'm not sure which is better. On the one hand, this is a nice feature. On the other hand, Snapcaster is a thing, and I'm not sure how often I find myself tutoring for this kind of counterspell. finally, Hinder does have the option of being played as Memory Lapse if you just need to tempo them out for a turn and make it impossible for them to draw a one-outer.
Hmmmm....
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I actually just noticed you don't use the Leyline+Helm combo. Any reason? I've always found it absolutely wonderful because it wins AND Leyline completely hoses so many nasty things in EDH.
It's in the board. Helm is very dead on its own, and most of the decks in my area are not GY based. I put the helm in the board along with the line, since obviously I want it vs GY decks, but there are few enough of them that I'd rather save the dead slots maindeck in most matchups. Hermit Druid is tahnkfully absent from my metagame, otherwise it might be worth it.
It's a reasonable point regarding crumple. I do have three kicking around not in any decks right now. The marginal utility is probably higher. Nice suggestion!
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
Also, at the moment I personally would run Artificer's Intuition instead of Trinket Mage, since it's a repeatable effect and an enchantment, and we run a lot of artifacts. It can't get our combo pieces, per say, but it does grab a host of other good things, even an on-color producing land if you're running Seat of the Synod or Vault of Whispers. It might be worth consideration, and I just started testing this myself, so we'll see if it's worth running.
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
I was debating what to take out if your Artificer's Intuition testing goes. Trinket mage seems like the perfect choice, but I'll need to see if the Intuition is good consistently.
Edit: Alright, what do you guys think of replacing Gemstone Array with Mycosynth Lattice? It serves the same function and would allow some absurd things with Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild, both cards which could be used as amazing "oh ****" buttons vs things like Vandalblast or artifact exiling. They are also excellent at slowing down OTHER artifact based combo decks. Thoughts?
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
The only downside I see is that it leaves you actually dead to Null Rod effects whereas now we can just bounce it and move on when we're ready to combo. Also, while 2 mana isn't that much in the overall scheme of things, since our average CMC is under 2, that means that every time we hit it on ad nauseum, we're drawing 2-3 fewer cards. All this for the marginal benefit of being able to cast upheaval as an 8 mana 2 card combo. Not seeing it as worth it.
In the meanwhile, Necrologia. It's Ad Nauseum except every card costs 1. Have to end-step it, which sucks since we don't have that much we can cast at Sorcery speed, but seems INSANE. Thoughts? Does this make Reliquary Tower worth running?
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
All of that said, I can definitely see choosing to run Necrologia as a third draw-cards-pay-life effect. When I've tested this card in the past, though, I've been a bit let down, since 99% of the time you don't have Reliquary Tower and you'll have to discard down to seven, without getting to play any of those cards. Sometimes seven cards just isn't enough to reliably get there with multiple opponents and countermagic. Necrologia is orders of magnitudes inferior to Ad Nauseam in this respect, since you typically cast AN at EOT and start your turn with a mit-ful of cards to go off, most likely with all of the countermagic protection you need to make you unstoppable. This typically won't happen with Necrologia. With Reliquary Tower, however, Necrologia is probably better than Ad Nauseam. I should really test it out again.
I think this post gets to the key idea to efficient combo deck-building that I have to remind myself constantly: when at all possible each card included that is part of a combo or mini-combo in your deck should also be great on its own. Hurkyl's Recall by itself is good and versatile. You can tutor for it and deal with that annoying Arcum player, or you can bounce your own combo pieces when you aren't holding a counterspell and someone's messing with your stuff, or you can use it to "get there" mana-wise with your cheap mana-rocks in a pinch. Mycosynth Lattice is a substitute for Gemstone Array, and fills a vital finishing role in our lists since Oona needs colored mana. So, I think if you run a list where you choose to include Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild, then running Mycosynth Lattice over Gemstone Array is a good call, since you are only adding more synergy to your deck, and not taking anything away. You are only adding a net 2 to the overall CMC of your list. If you are not choosing to run Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild, then Mycosynth Lattice doesn't seem worth the substitution for Gemstone Array to me either.
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
Good points. It really is a metagame call at some point. I think I'd be tempted to run Rebuild instead of Recall.
1) Play chain of vapor. It is by far and away the strongest bounce spell.
2) Cut force spike, it's very bad.
3) Cut gemstone/lattis reasons are as follows.
A) Goblin cannon is strictly better and it's abysmally terribad.
B) For a measly one more colored mana increasing ambition fetches guilded lotus which taps for black fetching sculpting steel and phyrexian metamorph for 8 colored killing 5 other players. (Or get tidesprout + sculpting steel for infinite colorless) Gemstones is bad. Cut it for something.
4) Consider playing more basics in order to utilize lake of the dead. It's very strong.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Agreed on points 1 and 2.
We CAN NOT cut gemstone/lattice. Oona is absurdly mana/color hungry. There is quite literally no way to go off some games without the fixing of those cards. In fact I run Beseech the Queen just because it is a colorless tutor for Gemstone. But no, it can not be done. It is as much of a staple as Power Artifact.