"There is only one god, and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death: 'Not today.'"
- Syrio Forel
The plan here is pretty simple: do what Black does best. Pay life, draw cards, kill creatures, strip hands, and bleed the table to death.
Notable Cards/Combos
Ghost-Lit Stalker: Ghost-Lit Stalker is pretty typical of most of the discard I use, in that it doesn't really card what you're discarding, just that there's a lot of it. Its activated ability is solid, but it gets maximum value when you channel it over and over with Volrath's Stronghold.
Mindslicer: To try and drop the average CMC a little, I've replaced Myojin of Night's Reach with this guy, who should do more stuff at more points in the game.
All is Dust: The mono-Black panic button. Kills my general, but it's one of the few things that does, so I should have little trouble recasting him. I may replace this with Spine of Ish Sah and add Phyrexia's Core into the manabase for more controllable expensive enchantment removal.
Venser's Journal: I hate this card, but I can tolerate it alongside "1B: Draw a card."
Lethal Vapors and Pithing Needle: Pithing Needle is a fine card on its own, but it locks people out of playing creatures in combination with Lethal Vapors... creatures that aren't indestructible, that is. Auto-killing cards like Mindslicer and Kokusho is also beneficial.
Beacon of Unrest: With a lot of tutors, the Black Beacon fills a weird hole in Black's slice of the colour pie for recurring artifacts.
Head Games: An interesting addition to a discard suite. You can use Head Games to make an opponent deal with a problem you can't handle - if you're about to be attacked by Blightsteel Colossus, for example, you can hit the player with Plains and give them a Swords to Plowshares as a gesture of good faith. You can sculpt a player's hand full of enchantments while you sandbag your O-Stone. Or you can just hand out a hand full of basic lands and not worry about that player for a little while. Versatile card.
2012-05-31: -Nightmare Lash, +Lashwrithe
2012-08-08: -Swamp, +Lake of the Dead
2012-11-08: -Woebringer Demon, +Syphon Flesh
2012-11-29: -Butcher of Malakir, Myojin of Night's Reach, +Mindslicer, Slum Reaper
2013-01-19: -Moonlight Bargain, +Bottled Cloister
2013-04-20: -Altar of Shadows, Caged Sun, Sadistic Sacrament, +Crypt Ghast, Pithing Needle, Lethal Vapors
2013-06-02: -Sword of Feast and Famine, +Undercity Plague
2013:08-15: -Eldrazi Conscription, Diabolic Tutor, +Dark Prophecy, Dauthi Embrace
2013-10-05: -Korlash, Heir to Blackblade, Hall of the Bandit Lord, Graveborn Muse, Bottled Cloister, Lashwrithe, Nim Deathmantle, Call to the Grave, Dark Prophecy, Dauthi Embrace, Night Dealings, Phyrexian Arena, Hoarder's Greed, Rise from the Grave, Undercity Plague, +Erebos, God of the Dead, Reliquary Tower, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Woebringer Demon, Mimic Vat, Venser's Journal, Gibbering Descent, Mind Slash, Suffer the Past, Exsanguinate, Read the Bones, Sign in Blood
Have you considered Extraplanar Lens and Gauntlet of Power to boost your mana? Being able to double your mana production is awesome. With these two added to your Caged Sun, if all 3 stick, you're generating 4 mana off a single Swamp. If the Lens's drawback is too much, consider using Snow-covered swamps, because then you can also fit in Scrying Sheets as an option which can potentially get you that extra land each turn as well as your normal draw.
Also, kinda surprised you have Vess but not Liliana of the Veil. There aren't a whole lot of cards that can make everyone discard, and she does it with no added cost. This could potentially give you an out to that blue player who managed to draw a counterspell to deal with Korlash or some other major threat. The rest of her abilities kinda speak for themselves but the ability to absolutely wreck a player's board position is just amazing.
Have you considered Extraplanar Lens and Gauntlet of Power to boost your mana? Being able to double your mana production is awesome. With these two added to your Caged Sun, if all 3 stick, you're generating 4 mana off a single Swamp. If the Lens's drawback is too much, consider using Snow-covered swamps, because then you can also fit in Scrying Sheets as an option which can potentially get you that extra land each turn as well as your normal draw.
Considered all three, like none of them. I've trying Scrying Sheets in mono-colour decks and all it ever does for me is suck up mana - poor in a deck with few instant-speed effects. I'd rather spend three mana on Phy.Arena or Journeyer's Kite, infinitely more stable. I generally also don't like the mana doublers, so I'm using only the one with the least downside - one does not run Gauntlet and Urborg in the same deck. With Caged Sun and Coffers/Deserted Temple, any more big mana effects are just pure greed.
Also, kinda surprised you have Vess but not Liliana of the Veil. There aren't a whole lot of cards that can make everyone discard, and she does it with no added cost. This could potentially give you an out to that blue player who managed to draw a counterspell to deal with Korlash or some other major threat. The rest of her abilities kinda speak for themselves but the ability to absolutely wreck a player's board position is just amazing.
Cost of Liliana of the Veil: something. Cost of Necrogen Mists: nothing. That's the main reason Vess is in over Veil. Both Lilianas do things I want the deck to do, but I think Vess is the better card for when the deck does what it's meant to do (ie. everyone's topdecking with no board position) - Veil can keep the pressure on and drive one person deeper into the hole, but Vess can just put the most relevant card on top of the library and close the game out. (Her ultimate is way more backbreaking too, if it ever gets there.) Veil's a good role-player, but I don't really want to go out of my way to pick up a card that will be just okay and whose value will sink when it leaves Standard.
How has your discard strategy been working with this deck? I'm not a big fan of it personally, but would love to know how fun it is in your own experience.
Not really sure how to answer on how fun it is - I played a version of MBC during Time Spiral with Smallpox and Nihilith and whatever discard spells were in Standard at the time, so I dig on decks where nobody has any cards in hand and I have a big dude to apply pressure. I don't think the discard is especially oppressive - it turns the game into a topdeck war, which gives a lot of opportunities for opponents to make the kind of spectacular comebacks EDH is designed for.
I play a nath the guilt leaf edh deck and here are some good cards i think you should add. Dread, No MercyLethal Vapors help you stall out until you get what you need. Syphon Mind is a good card. Geth's Grimoire is great. Cunning Lethemancer is another good discard per turn card like Necrogen Mist and bottomless pit, also Mindslicer is great. Quest for the Nihil Stone is amazing if you can keep them down to no cards. Opression is a nice card to have, but what i think the best card imo is Painful Quandary, i would run this card in any black edh deck as it is a huge pain for other players especially with quest for nihil stone out. Also tutors are always good in edh idk if you have these in your decklist, but i just wanted to bring them up Demonic Tutor, Beseech the Queen, Vampiric Tutor, Liliana Vess which i know you have in. I would defeinitly add in Painful Quandary as it is amazing.
Not really sure how to answer on how fun it is - I played a version of MBC during Time Spiral with Smallpox and Nihilith and whatever discard spells were in Standard at the time, so I dig on decks where nobody has any cards in hand and I have a big dude to apply pressure. I don't think the discard is especially oppressive - it turns the game into a topdeck war, which gives a lot of opportunities for opponents to make the kind of spectacular comebacks EDH is designed for.
I agree with you that that is one aspect of fun EDH was designed for and can certainly appreciate that. Awesome.
I play a nath the guilt leaf edh deck and here are some good cards i think you should add. Dread, No MercyLethal Vapors help you stall out until you get what you need. Syphon Mind is a good card. Geth's Grimoire is great. Cunning Lethemancer is another good discard per turn card like Necrogen Mist and bottomless pit, also Mindslicer is great. Quest for the Nihil Stone is amazing if you can keep them down to no cards. Opression is a nice card to have, but what i think the best card imo is Painful Quandary, i would run this card in any black edh deck as it is a huge pain for other players especially with quest for nihil stone out. Also tutors are always good in edh idk if you have these in your decklist, but i just wanted to bring them up Demonic Tutor, Beseech the Queen, Vampiric Tutor, Liliana Vess which i know you have in. I would defeinitly add in Painful Quandary as it is amazing.
So, let's go through these one by one, more or less.
Dread, No Mercy: These are okay, but all they really do is stop people attacking you - I'd rather have something proactive like another forced sacrifice effect. Dread in particular is a poor choice for this deck as I rely a lot on Call to the Grave to do the bulk of my killing, and Dread is not a zombie. That actually reminds me that I was going to switch Butcher of Malakir for Slum Reaper, since I don't have the creature numbers to make the Butcher anything but a very very expensive Fleshbag Marauder.
Lethal Vapors: This is interesting, since I could still cast Korlash even with Vapors out. Might have to consider this.
Syphon Mind: Is a spell for drawing cards, not for making opponents discard cards. There are better spells for drawing cards.
Cunning Lethemancer: I tried this guy, initially, but he ended up on the chopping block because a) he's slow, taking a full turn cycle before he does anything (unlike Bottomless Pit/Necrogen Mists), and b) he's not a zombie.
Mindslicer: However, I totally forgot I had planned to put a Mindslicer in this deck, since that wants to die and can potentially lead to some really explosive starts (mana rock, Mindslicer, sac spell, Korlash, beatdown).
Quest for the Nihil Stone, Oppression: I don't like these because they make dreadful topdecks. They're only useful at a certain portion of the game, and when your plan is to be able to survive when you don't have any cards left - which will happen pretty much every game where I can't hit either Geth's Grimoire or Night Dealings - then you want as few of these cards as possible.
Painful Quandary: I'm sure I had this in an early version of the deck, and I took it out because it doesn't actually do much. Opponents rarely have cards to discard, and Korlash doesn't need much help with the actual killing of people.
Tutors: Are in decks that need them more. Diabolic Tutor is a bit sloppy, but that's maybe the only one I would switch out (for Demonic); Beseech reveals the card and is ironically at lower power in a mono-Black deck where you are more likely to cast it early, and Vampiric Tutor loses a lot of its appeal in a deck that doesn't ever do stuff during an opponent's turn.
I believe very strongly that the deck should be tailored to the general, and never the other way around. Even if a particular legend plays very similarly to another, there should be at least one card out there that will provide better synergy with one general than the other. It pains me when people say they're going to switch out their general for another card on a whim, because shouldn't that upset the careful balance in the rest of the 99 cards?
So, it's with no small amount of thought that I'm relieving Korlash for Erebos, God of the Dead. I like Korlash a lot, but his role in the deck is to be the finishing blow to an already-exhausted opponent - many creatures could take his place, he just happens to be the largest for his cost and comes with a couple of minor benefits (regeneration, tribal support). Erebos, on the other hand, is a nigh-on untouchable card advantage machine, and we all know that whoever draws the most cards wins. I want to play a recurrable Greed as my general, and I still want to have a deck that grinds away my opponents' creatures and hands... looks like I have to swap the generals.
I thought I might go through my process of converting the deck from one general to another, since while there's not going to be a large amount of cards that change, there's a little bit to work through to determine what changes. First, let's look at the different qualities of the two generals...
Self-protection
Korlash's regeneration comes up more often than you would think and is easy to pay for; it's not quite being indestructible, but it is a buffer against a lot of things. Korlash does sometimes get caught in the crossfire of cards like Barter in Blood and Mutilate, but with Erebos rarely being a creature until I have the board under control, I'm a lot more free to fire off these spells when they're needed. I can also retain the Lethal Vapors/Pithing Needle lock.
Size
Korlash is massive. He is rarely not the biggest creature on the board. He routinely kills in two blows. He's the ideal finisher. Erebos is significantly less sizeable and won't reliably be a creature every time I need him to be one. Thus, I need to be looking for alternative finishers.
Game stage
Although they have the same CMC, Korlash is a spell strictly reserved for the late game while Erebos I want to play as soon as possible. If I'm making cuts, it's going to be to the CMC4 area to not get in the way of getting my general out as soon as possible.
Role
Like I've said before, Korlash's only job in the deck is to mop everything up. He ends the game. Erebos, completely conversely, really gets the game going. As an engine rather than a finisher, I want to cast Erebos as soon as I can, as reliably as I can. This might mean adding a couple more CMC2 mana rocks and/or upping my land count to always be assured of hitting four mana; to make room, I can cull draw engines, as I should always have access to one, and cards like Dauthi Embrace whose role is only related to letting my general close out the game quickly.
Tribe
The creature type "God" is mostly irrelevent (for now), but a couple of the Zombie-centric cards cease to work as well (or at all) without a Zombie constaly available. While Graveborn Muse is still good value with occasional boosts from Withered Wretch or Syphon Flesh, but Call to the Grave and Rise from the Grave have outlived their usefulness.
Additional requirements
Korlash requires very little support - only Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to turn on utility lands and plenty of card draw to hit land drops. Erebos, in the classic Black style of bargain, demands life for cards, which means I need to add in some kind of lifegain beyond Loxodon Warhammer.
Maybe. Devotion rarely got too high and I was planning on getting rid of a couple more permanents (the discard enchantments) during the next revision. Thespian's Stage or even Crypt of Agadeem would probably be better.
I was just brain storming a bit of a more experimental erebos deck. I haven't played with the card in any way, but I was thinking some sort of devotion heavier theme could be interesting. My first idea is to play the devotion cards (gray merchant, the old chroma guy, abhorrent overlord, nykthos (and an x card or two), and obviously erebos), and then a lot of one drops. Every thing that can gain life (to offset the draw lifeloss). The basic idea being to play out your hand, drop erebos, draw more, play more, find gray merchant and abuse him. Play some of the extort guys (especially the cheap ones) as an additional route to victory (or at least sustaining yourself to the end game). Obviously that whole thing is fairly unrelated to your own deck, but rather than make a new thread I thought I'd chime in on my thoughts about the general in my reply here...
How do you end most games? Exsanguinate/kokusho? Feels a little light on killing power, but I'm not used to playing with many tutors so maybe that's not such a big deal. Woebringer Demon is pretty neat; I'm not sure I've ever seen it before. Not sure if I like it more than call to the grave, but it does have a 1 devotion advantage and probably gets to hit a couple times a game for 4. Also easier to recur, though I don't see that as a theme here. The devotion thing might actually be a disadvantage if you're hoping to keep it less vulnerable by not making erebos a creature. Demon hits other players' zombies, but considering you happen to have three yourself, it has the potential to stay out there and lock the board down for a while (whereas demon flops if a single player runs out).
Sounds interesting. Very different kind of build, but yeah, Erebos is good fuel for both a control and a tempo/aggro deck. Might even be able to make it some kind of EDH version of super-oldschool mono-Black decks that used Dark Ritual to power out Hypnotic Specters.
Kokusho/Gray Merchant are usually enough to win games - they can be run into the Lethal Vapors/Pithing Needle lock or Mind Slash and recurred with Volrath's Stronghold. Reanimation isn't exactly a theme, no, but it is a big thing with the Stronghold - that land possibly does more work than Cabal Coffers, rebuying creatures to keep whatever needs to be controlled under control. That's why I switched from Call to the Grave to Woebringer Demon - it's not as strong a card, but it's easier to put back on the battlefield.
Notable Cards/Combos
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
Also, kinda surprised you have Vess but not Liliana of the Veil. There aren't a whole lot of cards that can make everyone discard, and she does it with no added cost. This could potentially give you an out to that blue player who managed to draw a counterspell to deal with Korlash or some other major threat. The rest of her abilities kinda speak for themselves but the ability to absolutely wreck a player's board position is just amazing.
Considered all three, like none of them. I've trying Scrying Sheets in mono-colour decks and all it ever does for me is suck up mana - poor in a deck with few instant-speed effects. I'd rather spend three mana on Phy.Arena or Journeyer's Kite, infinitely more stable. I generally also don't like the mana doublers, so I'm using only the one with the least downside - one does not run Gauntlet and Urborg in the same deck. With Caged Sun and Coffers/Deserted Temple, any more big mana effects are just pure greed.
Cost of Liliana of the Veil: something. Cost of Necrogen Mists: nothing. That's the main reason Vess is in over Veil. Both Lilianas do things I want the deck to do, but I think Vess is the better card for when the deck does what it's meant to do (ie. everyone's topdecking with no board position) - Veil can keep the pressure on and drive one person deeper into the hole, but Vess can just put the most relevant card on top of the library and close the game out. (Her ultimate is way more backbreaking too, if it ever gets there.) Veil's a good role-player, but I don't really want to go out of my way to pick up a card that will be just okay and whose value will sink when it leaves Standard.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
Man they would be handsome.
Naya Mid Rang
I agree with you that that is one aspect of fun EDH was designed for and can certainly appreciate that. Awesome.
So, let's go through these one by one, more or less.
Liliana Vess, Geth's Grimoire: Already in the deck. Liliana is okay as Vampiric Tutor(+) + Fog, Geth's Grimoire is insanely strong.
Dread, No Mercy: These are okay, but all they really do is stop people attacking you - I'd rather have something proactive like another forced sacrifice effect. Dread in particular is a poor choice for this deck as I rely a lot on Call to the Grave to do the bulk of my killing, and Dread is not a zombie. That actually reminds me that I was going to switch Butcher of Malakir for Slum Reaper, since I don't have the creature numbers to make the Butcher anything but a very very expensive Fleshbag Marauder.
Lethal Vapors: This is interesting, since I could still cast Korlash even with Vapors out. Might have to consider this.
Syphon Mind: Is a spell for drawing cards, not for making opponents discard cards. There are better spells for drawing cards.
Cunning Lethemancer: I tried this guy, initially, but he ended up on the chopping block because a) he's slow, taking a full turn cycle before he does anything (unlike Bottomless Pit/Necrogen Mists), and b) he's not a zombie.
Mindslicer: However, I totally forgot I had planned to put a Mindslicer in this deck, since that wants to die and can potentially lead to some really explosive starts (mana rock, Mindslicer, sac spell, Korlash, beatdown).
Quest for the Nihil Stone, Oppression: I don't like these because they make dreadful topdecks. They're only useful at a certain portion of the game, and when your plan is to be able to survive when you don't have any cards left - which will happen pretty much every game where I can't hit either Geth's Grimoire or Night Dealings - then you want as few of these cards as possible.
Painful Quandary: I'm sure I had this in an early version of the deck, and I took it out because it doesn't actually do much. Opponents rarely have cards to discard, and Korlash doesn't need much help with the actual killing of people.
Tutors: Are in decks that need them more. Diabolic Tutor is a bit sloppy, but that's maybe the only one I would switch out (for Demonic); Beseech reveals the card and is ironically at lower power in a mono-Black deck where you are more likely to cast it early, and Vampiric Tutor loses a lot of its appeal in a deck that doesn't ever do stuff during an opponent's turn.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
So, it's with no small amount of thought that I'm relieving Korlash for Erebos, God of the Dead. I like Korlash a lot, but his role in the deck is to be the finishing blow to an already-exhausted opponent - many creatures could take his place, he just happens to be the largest for his cost and comes with a couple of minor benefits (regeneration, tribal support). Erebos, on the other hand, is a nigh-on untouchable card advantage machine, and we all know that whoever draws the most cards wins. I want to play a recurrable Greed as my general, and I still want to have a deck that grinds away my opponents' creatures and hands... looks like I have to swap the generals.
I thought I might go through my process of converting the deck from one general to another, since while there's not going to be a large amount of cards that change, there's a little bit to work through to determine what changes. First, let's look at the different qualities of the two generals...
Based on that criteria, I'm cutting:
Hall of the Bandit Lord, Lashwrithe, Nim Deathmantle, Call to the Grave, Dauthi Embrace, Rise from the Grave, Undercity Plague - for no longer having the general to support them, and;
Graveborn Muse, Bottled Cloister, Dark Prophecy, Night Dealings, Phyrexian Arena, Hoarder's Greed - for being draw engines.
And I'm putting in:
Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Exsanguinate, Suffer the Past - Lifegain and win conditions rolled into single cards.
Read the Bones, Sign in Blood - Card draw that's cheaper than my general suddenly became a lot more valuable.
Reliquary Tower, Venser's Journal - To hold massive hands.
Woebringer Demon - Recurrable removal.
Raven's Crime, Mind Slash, Gibbering Descent - Bolster my discard suite.
Mimic Vat - Provides recurrable creatures for various purposes.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
How do you end most games? Exsanguinate/kokusho? Feels a little light on killing power, but I'm not used to playing with many tutors so maybe that's not such a big deal. Woebringer Demon is pretty neat; I'm not sure I've ever seen it before. Not sure if I like it more than call to the grave, but it does have a 1 devotion advantage and probably gets to hit a couple times a game for 4. Also easier to recur, though I don't see that as a theme here. The devotion thing might actually be a disadvantage if you're hoping to keep it less vulnerable by not making erebos a creature. Demon hits other players' zombies, but considering you happen to have three yourself, it has the potential to stay out there and lock the board down for a while (whereas demon flops if a single player runs out).
Kokusho/Gray Merchant are usually enough to win games - they can be run into the Lethal Vapors/Pithing Needle lock or Mind Slash and recurred with Volrath's Stronghold. Reanimation isn't exactly a theme, no, but it is a big thing with the Stronghold - that land possibly does more work than Cabal Coffers, rebuying creatures to keep whatever needs to be controlled under control. That's why I switched from Call to the Grave to Woebringer Demon - it's not as strong a card, but it's easier to put back on the battlefield.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.