Bederndern i hope you mean Meta in the sense of any one who has more than 1 color in their general. the chances of you sitting at a table with 3 other mono color decks is highly unlikely, so youre garuenteed to hit at least 3 lands with his entrance, and if theres another green player there you wont even need to lose a land yourself. 9 forms of mana denial is plenty when you only need 1 to stop someone from doing anything to stop you. 1 Strip Mine, or 1 turn of Rishadon Port, or losing 1 land from Sundering Titan can mean the difference between combo-ing off and passing phases with nothing to do. Slamming the triple color player for 3 lands is a bigger punch than eating annihilator sometimes.
when i say developed metas, it includes developed decks. all of your BiS cards... no jank. often times that means heavy nonbasics, leading to missed opportunity with sundering titan. another thing is, lots of people are going to share colors. you can only hit one island...if there are 3 u/x decks....what do you do (yeah i now the smart ass answer here is to hit their other color, but you know what i mean...hahah)? ive been put in enough situations where sundering titan wasnt a blow out play. therefore, in my eyes...he is a meta choice. he should be AMAZING very time he triggers. and "slamming the triple color player for 3 lands" is not always the right play. keeping people able to pilot their deck can benefit you greatly. doing it because you have to target them, or because you can can be bad news for you. strip mine and its ilk are all good and well, and being that your boy is a pro who consistently gets those openers with mana crypt, recycle, strip mine, port, forest, and all....im sure he chooses the right targets at the right time 100% of the time. he also rips crucible with the first browse trigger too right?
Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Exploration are in everyway completely necessary. Not running any other form of accel because youre general does it is really only a valid statement when talking about cards like Nature's Lore, Skyshroud Claim, and Rampant Growth. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Exploration all give you turn 2 and 1 Azusa, and when its turn 2 and turn 1 its hard for anyone to stop her from hitting the table. 1/100 times youll have nothing but lands to play, and just sit on your ass because you got unlucky with your draws, the other 99 times youll be playing Recycle turn 2 or Gen Wave for 8 on turn 3, or Tooth and Nail. Azusa is natural card disadvantage so i can understand the thought that getting her on the table faster really just dumps your hand faster and youll have nothing to do. if you've built your deck properly, than that will almost never happen. Dropping Azusa turn 2 can allow for borderline banworthy plays a turn later, instead of on turn 4 or 5 where its a lot easier to control.
the only deck that has ever been that consistent at drawing openers like you talk about (out side of combo) were braids and erayo (both of which i used to play, so i know what im talking about here as well). as broken as those decks were, and as consistent as they were, you had to work pretty damn hard to get openers like that. and those decks played a ton of redundant cards. im sure that when your friend gets the godhand, its unbeatable. but im also sure you are inflating the numbers by like 99%.
Yes it's built for speed, it's one of the fastest decks you can come across after being finely tuned so much. I can tell you from experience how consistantly a pain in the ass this deck can be, it takes more than 1 counterspell to shut down and even with everyone else at the table being at an equal power level, if the Azusa player has an opening hand Mana Crypt... better pray one of you has a force of will because hes going to be blowing down the gate. The acceleration that the 3 cards bring cannot be argued if the deck is consistant with them. Play a game with your deck against his and yours with whatever way you think is better, 99/100 times his deck will outperform or be more consistant, more often than it.
first off...finely tuned and optimized are 2 different things. he may be tuned to your meta, but i garuntee if i sit with you guys for a game you will change your mind very fast about the deck building skills in question. i play optimized lists. the best cards hands down. every general is a puzzle, with a specific 99 to be played. i make it a point to find out what that perfect 99 should be.
decks built for speed lose someting elsewhere. speed costs you slots. slots you do not need to spend on those types of effects, at least to the extent that this guy is going with it. hes losing out on quality slots for when he dosent get the god hand(you know, the 1 in 100 where he dosent get it).
if your buddy there is getting consistent t1 mana crypts, sol rings and such...you should have a talk with him about proper shuffling. even if he aggressively mulls for it, its still bad IMO. lets say you go to 6 looking for fast mana. your sequence of plays are land > crypt > azusa > land > land, leaving you with 3 cards in hand with the multiplayer draw rule. running close to 60 lands, you can safely assume that at least one of those cards is a land. if one of those 2 cards are not a draw engine you are gonna lose all of that "tempo" you just struggled to create if you dont get one on the next turn. so lets say your hand was a random creature, like rofellos and a cultivate...and you draw...your sol ring? lets give your boy the benefit of the doubt here and say he draws a random draw engine....hes still not that far ahead unless its recycle. and for him to follow up that line of play with a recycle 9 times out of 10 would raise suspicion.
It seems to me your basing most of your opinion of Azusa on the decks you have experienced in your meta. The generals you mentioned are indeed extremely powerful but i'd put a well built Azusa deck like this one above everything you posted in terms of consistancy and power except for Azami and Arcum, and even then it would be an even match there. This is not your average Azusa deck, looking at a list online can't properly show you that.
I don't mean to sound condescending, but many of the statements you made are incredibly ignorant, and only seem to point toward meta experience, nothing more. Through all the metas i've been through i could count on 1 hand the number of decks that can consistantly keep up with this one, and none of them were part of your list. I apologize for the verbose response, but ive seen first hand how explosive this deck is, and seeing a myriad of comments belittling its power level without adequate explanation is aggravating.
im actually not basing my arguments on my personal meta. im basing it on the year+ i have playing the deck at several shops and events, obsessing over it and optimizing it, throwing ideas back and forth with 2 of my buddies back home who also run azusa and spend time tinkering with her, and the hundereds of in house games i play at home with roomates (1v1 and ffa). i play this deck a lot. i have gone through several iterations and formulas for the deck. i know what i am talking about. in my book thats not being ignorant. saying that i have no idea what im talking about when you do not know my history with the general and how the deck should operate is lunacy.
myriad of coments belittling the deck? i said the deck was "meh". if your friend is gonna cry because i said his deck was "meh" he has some real serious personal issues, and should probably stop playing with azusa and seek counseling. and if you are going to freak because i said his deck was nothing special, hey...whatever. at least you guys have each other shoulders to cry on.
putting azusa on par with top tier blue based generals, known combo and solid rock lists is the dumbest statement someone can attempt to make. rock players will disenchant anything relevant because they can, combo decks can easily power through most non blue disruption and hardcore control will give any azusa pilots fits.
i agree, its not the average azusa list. its actually one of the better lists i have seen that did not come from my circle. but to market it as something it is not is just wrong. and regardless of how well you build it it will never EVER hang with the big dogs. and if you guys are getting beat by it....step your game up.
if it really comes down to it i will nitpick every card in the list if you want. i dont have the time for that though as i have to get ready for work soon.
well if you've done as much work on building the perfect deck as you say than it really comes down to style, and your opinion of "better cards" over his. No use arguing over something neither side is going to budge on. I'm sorry i assumed you were "ignorant," clearly you have a lot of experience in the matter. The optimum 99 cards for an Azusa deck and the 99 optimum cards for a green deck with Azusa as the general can be much different, both being of the same caliber. I disagree with your statement that it will "never EVER hang with the big dogs." That's as far as im going to go at it because I don't think anything i say will change anything.
when i say developed metas, it includes developed decks. all of your BiS cards... no jank. often times that means heavy nonbasics, leading to missed opportunity with sundering titan. another thing is, lots of people are going to share colors. you can only hit one island...if there are 3 u/x decks....what do you do (yeah i now the smart ass answer here is to hit their other color, but you know what i mean...hahah)? ive been put in enough situations where sundering titan wasnt a blow out play. therefore, in my eyes...he is a meta choice. he should be AMAZING very time he triggers. and "slamming the triple color player for 3 lands" is not always the right play. keeping people able to pilot their deck can benefit you greatly. doing it because you have to target them, or because you can can be bad news for you. strip mine and its ilk are all good and well, and being that your boy is a pro who consistently gets those openers with mana crypt, recycle, strip mine, port, forest, and all....im sure he chooses the right targets at the right time 100% of the time. he also rips crucible with the first browse trigger too right?
the only deck that has ever been that consistent at drawing openers like you talk about (out side of combo) were braids and erayo (both of which i used to play, so i know what im talking about here as well). as broken as those decks were, and as consistent as they were, you had to work pretty damn hard to get openers like that. and those decks played a ton of redundant cards. im sure that when your friend gets the godhand, its unbeatable. but im also sure you are inflating the numbers by like 99%.
first off...finely tuned and optimized are 2 different things. he may be tuned to your meta, but i garuntee if i sit with you guys for a game you will change your mind very fast about the deck building skills in question. i play optimized lists. the best cards hands down. every general is a puzzle, with a specific 99 to be played. i make it a point to find out what that perfect 99 should be.
decks built for speed lose someting elsewhere. speed costs you slots. slots you do not need to spend on those types of effects, at least to the extent that this guy is going with it. hes losing out on quality slots for when he dosent get the god hand(you know, the 1 in 100 where he dosent get it).
if your buddy there is getting consistent t1 mana crypts, sol rings and such...you should have a talk with him about proper shuffling. even if he aggressively mulls for it, its still bad IMO. lets say you go to 6 looking for fast mana. your sequence of plays are land > crypt > azusa > land > land, leaving you with 3 cards in hand with the multiplayer draw rule. running close to 60 lands, you can safely assume that at least one of those cards is a land. if one of those 2 cards are not a draw engine you are gonna lose all of that "tempo" you just struggled to create if you dont get one on the next turn. so lets say your hand was a random creature, like rofellos and a cultivate...and you draw...your sol ring? lets give your boy the benefit of the doubt here and say he draws a random draw engine....hes still not that far ahead unless its recycle. and for him to follow up that line of play with a recycle 9 times out of 10 would raise suspicion.
im actually not basing my arguments on my personal meta. im basing it on the year+ i have playing the deck at several shops and events, obsessing over it and optimizing it, throwing ideas back and forth with 2 of my buddies back home who also run azusa and spend time tinkering with her, and the hundereds of in house games i play at home with roomates (1v1 and ffa). i play this deck a lot. i have gone through several iterations and formulas for the deck. i know what i am talking about. in my book thats not being ignorant. saying that i have no idea what im talking about when you do not know my history with the general and how the deck should operate is lunacy.
myriad of coments belittling the deck? i said the deck was "meh". if your friend is gonna cry because i said his deck was "meh" he has some real serious personal issues, and should probably stop playing with azusa and seek counseling. and if you are going to freak because i said his deck was nothing special, hey...whatever. at least you guys have each other shoulders to cry on.
putting azusa on par with top tier blue based generals, known combo and solid rock lists is the dumbest statement someone can attempt to make. rock players will disenchant anything relevant because they can, combo decks can easily power through most non blue disruption and hardcore control will give any azusa pilots fits.
i agree, its not the average azusa list. its actually one of the better lists i have seen that did not come from my circle. but to market it as something it is not is just wrong. and regardless of how well you build it it will never EVER hang with the big dogs. and if you guys are getting beat by it....step your game up.
if it really comes down to it i will nitpick every card in the list if you want. i dont have the time for that though as i have to get ready for work soon.
What is with this and all of the personal attacks? Who said that turn 3 Gen wave or T&N happens every game? Who said that I get sol ring and mana crypt every opener, or always draw crucible?
If its a matter of terminology, then I hold that this deck is not just competitive and/or tuned, it is optimized in very much the same fashion you talk about. Yes, cards like Hunter's insight, omnath, elder, duplicant, springjack are on the radar to be taken out, but whats here isnt just an above average list marketed to be something it isnt.
I understand your point about the high land count affecting the consistency of the tempo of this deck. This is a valid point to make with a deck with so many lands, but its answered by the very high number of CA that this deck runs. Even if its not turn 1 mana crypt in the first 7, Exploration, ancient tomb, crop rotation for ancient tomb, etc... will achieve the same effect for an explosive opening, that is then reliably supplemented with a form of repeated draw. This kind of hand, I hold, happens on a regular basis. Hands with Mana crypt are usually nuts, but the former is far far more likely. In fact, I have been toying with wild growth as a way to do this more consistently.
You have viewpoints I disagree with. The sentiment that Azusa is incapable of competing with combo and blue control decks is one of them. The idea that every general has a perfect 99 is one that I do very much agree with, and its the reason I would like to open a critical dialogue, but I can't do that because you haven't really said anything concrete apart from the comments about the mana rocks and and the land count which have been addressed in the OP or in other comments.
I don't take offense to you saying my deck is meh, but I do take offense to you saying it and nothing concrete as to why you think so. If there's something better I could be doing, I am open to criticisms, and if I agree with them I'll incorporate it. I too am very familiar with Azusa and my own list, and I personally believe my list is close to fully optimized, which is why I am skeptical of the blank claims you make of this general's power level.
Edit: On your comments about Sundering Titan. Yes, while in competitive metas the manabases have a higher concentration of non basics, it is also true that that correlates to their being a higher number of fetchlands which increases the frequency of their being a variety of duals and shocks on the table, increasing the selection and overall impact of the card.
On Optimizing:
I just think you all believe in a very dangerous deck building paragon. There is no such thing as an optimal 60... I mean 99. Magic and specific metagames are always changing, and every deck needs to adapt accordingly. If there was a perfect build for any one strategy, then there would be no need for deck builders and Magic would be a stagnant game. There are no sacred cows. You will eventually need to cards that you previously thought were "staples." Holding a glamorized notion of an optimal deck will ultimately just hold you back from discovering new interactions. Theory can only go so far.
On Hunter's Insight:
This card is garbage. It hinges too much on these contingencies:
-You never want it in your opening hand.
-You need to already have a huge dork in play (And if it's connecting, you were probably already winning.)
-You need your opponents to have nothing in their hand.
Yea this card's sweet.
I understand that this deck needs draw engines, but I think even Tower of Fortunes is better, and that has a huge opportunity cost. If I had to choose I think I'd put a primal command, it gets kozilek, it's incredibly flexible etc. etc.
On Mana Rocks:
BEDERPADERP (I just think this is funny): I guess I see where you're coming from on this issue, but I think it's just incorrect. I believe that your arguments against cards like sol ring and mana crypt are weak. Azusa does want to take advantage of its lands, but it also just wants to ahead on mana. You concede that these cards get an Azusa player "a littte ahead on mana," but why isn't that enough? Every margin matters, and more than that card economy matters. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt offer two mana at the cost of one card, and many other decks run them. "Other decks running them" seems like a poor argument but it matters much much more when you're an azusa deck that doesn't run them. Foregoing mana rocks forces the azusa player to match that ramp solely by playing extra land, and that comes at the cost of more cards all because that's what your general is "for."
Mana Crypt offers you the ability to play turn one azusa and have access to six mana on your second turn. This is clearly an example of variance, but it is a powerful draw that is available to an Azusa player that includes it. You can build for consistency in EDH, but for each additional player there is less and less that you can control as an individual anyway. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to draw at the high end of variance with a card like Mana Crypt. It doesn't really even come at the cost of consistency either. It saves on card economy, like I mentioned before, and its always adding 2 mana. I'm sure you can find something to do with that, you're an Azusa deck.
I also just think that the landfall and "what if you draw it?" assertions aren't that big of a deal. Technogeek's running 54 land, I somehow think that his avengers are still going to be more than servicable. And if he draws it? That's fine. He'll just cast spells with it, this deck is mana hungry, and honestly should have a bunch of mana sinks. More than that, he's drawing to cards like kozilek and garruk that fill his his hand with DI cards, he'll want to cast as many of them as possible to have an impact. This is where mana crypt and card economy come into play in my mind. One additional mana doesn't seem like a lot, but anyone who's played any sort of magic knows that it makes difference between games won and lost. Sure, other cards can offer this additional mana, but mana crypt does this while also drawing toward the benefit variance. It just seems awesome, but if jamming forests is what you want to do, then that's fine.
On Ad Hominem:
This got out of control really quickly, but I think the important thing boils down to this:
If there's something better I could be doing, I am open to criticisms, and if I agree with them I'll incorporate it.
I mean he felt a little insulted by his deck being called "meh," but to be fair he does mention that he spent time on it, that's just a natural reaction. However, Techno clearly wants a productive discussion about how to better this deck. He's still going to argue his points, but that's how it should be.
I have to say that your list looks pretty solid, I thought I'd be able to step in and offer some big change ideas...but not really lol. I would like to suggest Life from the Loam, and Maze of Ith as really great additions to your deck. LFTL is a recurrable Crucible of Worlds replacement in a pinch, Maze of Ith is just awesome sauce...but with those two aside I can't think of much you don't already have, nice deck.
I do have to agree that Hunter's Insight is pretty much crap though, all the Snow-Covered Forests feel wasted without Scrying Sheets, and Lotus Cobra has always been an under performer for me...has it been working for you? Always saw cobra and found myself wishing if was something else.
I believe you should run high market as another sac outlet for your creatures to protect against exile effects.
Also another include for a deck that runs fatties should be Nim Deathmantle. With all of the excess mana you can bring back some fatties after a board wipe. Each creature hitting triggers the deathmantle thus you can bring back multiple creatures but the last one will be attached to the deathmantle.
I have to say that your list looks pretty solid, I thought I'd be able to step in and offer some big change ideas...but not really lol. I would like to suggest Life from the Loam, and Maze of Ith as really great additions to your deck. LFTL is a recurrable Crucible of Worlds replacement in a pinch, Maze of Ith is just awesome sauce...but with those two aside I can't think of much you don't already have, nice deck.
I do have to agree that Hunter's Insight is pretty much crap though, all the Snow-Covered Forests feel wasted without Scrying Sheets, and Lotus Cobra has always been an under performer for me...has it been working for you? Always saw cobra and found myself wishing if was something else.
Thanks for the suggestions. First off, I recently surprised myself with the realization that Maze of Ith actually does very little for this deck. Against tier decks there generally aren't very many creatures turning sideways and against more traditional aggro decks I'm usually able to race them so the aggression wont matter. Also not having that extra mana in my opening hand is often the difference between a keepable hand and one that isn't. Maze has become Eldrazi Temple which has been good so far, and I dont see myself looking back. I wish it was buried ruin, as the power level of that card is blatantly obvious, its just that I would need to switch the list around so that I could abuse it more. I already have memory jar, crucible, and my draw engines, but I feel like thats still not enough. Perhaps oblivion stone could work.
I took out Life from the Loam early on in the deck's conception, as I needed more actual draw engines. It was great alot of the time, but too often I found myself with only loam, which, while still effective at keeping a consistent stream of lands, does not translate into board presence. I have added more draw since, so I could see myself running this again.
I don't really see the snow-covered's as wasted, as there is virtually no drawback to running them over regular forests and I have mouth of ronom. Cobra doesn't provide the same exponential benefit that rofellos does, but it does give 3 mana early on in the game every turn, which is still powerful enough.
Like SageOwl said, Hunter's Insight is being tested as a GSZ.
When you play rude awakening any lands you turn into creatures that you played this turn have summoning sickness. Usually I play this card when I have tons of land in play. Flood the mana pool, play it entwined, use floating mana to play something and then swing with 10+ 2/2's.
For the other cards you mention, in my list I run journey of discovery, gaea's bounty, and seek the horizon. Burgeoning is cool but less abuseable that exploration is
When you play rude awakening any lands you turn into creatures that you played this turn have summoning sickness. Usually I play this card when I have tons of land in play. Flood the mana pool, play it entwined, use floating mana to play something and then swing with 10+ 2/2's.
Yeah but it says "until end of turn, lands you control become 2/2 creatures that are still lands." so + summoning sickness your 2/2 creatures are useless cause it's "until end of turn"
Yeah but it says "until end of turn, lands you control become 2/2 creatures that are still lands." so + summoning sickness your 2/2 creatures are useless cause it's "until end of turn"
The only land that would be summoning sick are the ones that entered the battlefield the turn you played Rude Awakening.
It doesn't say that they enter the battlefield as creatures, its that they become creatures; if your ruling was the case, cards like Inkmoth Nexus, etc would be useless because they would always be summoning sick.
The only land that would be summoning sick are the ones that entered the battlefield the turn you played Rude Awakening.
It doesn't say that they enter the battlefield as creatures, its that they become creatures; if your ruling was the case, cards like Inkmoth Nexus, etc would be useless because they would always be summoning sick.
Thank you MTGsupreme for your explanation. Now I see better the way how it works.
The only land that would be summoning sick are the ones that entered the battlefield the turn you played Rude Awakening.
It doesn't say that they enter the battlefield as creatures, its that they become creatures; if your ruling was the case, cards like Inkmoth Nexus, etc would be useless because they would always be summoning sick.
Not sure what you mean by lands always being sick??????
"8/1/2008: A noncreature permanent that turns into a creature is subject to the "summoning sickness" rule: It can only attack, and its {T} abilities can only be activated, if its controller has continuously controlled that permanent since the beginning of his or her most recent turn."
So the turn you play Inkmoth Nexus you could change it into a creature but it wouldn't do anything unless you had an effect giving it haste or similar. You could still activate it to block a creature during your opponents turn.
Thats why I always try to drop my animated lands 1st so next turn they can attack Inkmoth Nexus, Mutavault, etc....
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noticed a few cards that you don't seem to have but probably should be at the very least tried out.
1. Cycling lands- Tranquil Thicket, Blasted Landscape, and Slippery Karst. Lands that give you the option to turn into cards when they arent needed are great, but the fact that they can turn into a fairly degenerate draw engine with Life from the Loam (cycle, cycle, cycle and replace draw with dredge, Lftl, cycle, cycle, cycle and replace draw with dredge, repeat)
2. Life from the Loam- gets lands back let's you never miss land drops if grabbing fetchlands, let's you keep utility lands in check with stripmine or something, forms a powerful draw engine with cycling lands, and gives you alot of cards from sundial, horn of greed, and recycle from all those extra (preferably self sacrificing) lands played. a veritable swiss army knife of utility.
3. Dryad Arbor- It's a creature which is fetchable by fetchlands, It gives you an emergency chumpblock, it's recurrable with crucible/lftl, powers up Gaea's Cradle, and turns Green Sun's Zenith x=0 into one mana rampant growth. Khalni Garden is similarish
4. Green Sun's Zenith- Yes it can only grab green creatures, which means sadly no eldrazi you "merely" have to settle for Avenger, Primeval, Terastadon, or Vorinclex in the lategame but early game it also grabs utilty mana guys like Rofellos, Lotus cobra, Oracle, and my favorite Dryad Arbor which let's you have a t1 ramp spell enabling t2 Azusa.
5. Buried Ruin- It's a non-basic land that doesnt etb tapped, It may not have alot of targets in a deck like this but the things it does target are very useful. Brings back Duplicant, your artifact card drawers when they get destroyed, and Crucible. You dont know how fun it is to buried ruin a crucible, then immediatly replay your crucible from the yard. Also if you're into that sort of thing you can use it with Mindslaver for a repeatable mindslaver lock
7. Mass Haste outlet (Concordant Crossroads and Akroma's Memorial)- The only thing better than playing fat creatures is playing fat creatures then swinging with them immediately since people just love board wiping your juicy fat creatures. Being able to land a mass haste effect when you genesis wave makes you feel like Christmas has come early. Akroma's Memorial being an artifact also means that when it gets destroyed (it will get destroyed, people dont like Primeval Akroma bashing their heads in) that you can recur it with buried ruin which can be recurred by lftl/crucible
8. Wolfbriar Elemental- one card army that scales with your available mana. Even in a worst case scenario of not having alot of mana a 4/4 for 4 is still capable of laying down some beats
9. Reliquary tower- Utility land that doesnt etb tapped, let's you retain your hand whenever you start going nuts with horn of greed, lftl, and a few fetchlands/strip mine effects. Also works very nicely with Recycle when played/tutored into play after you have recycle, since timestamp order applies you'll have recycle and be able to retain the infinite handsize
10. Cloudstone Curio- not quite as optimized in your list since you dont run as many ETB creatures as i do, but this card tends to become the most important card in your deck when you have it. Here is just a fraction of the uses it provides to an Azusa deck.
1. It lets you hit all your land drops- simply being able to play a land and return another land let's you always get full value out of your landfall triggers like horn of greed and lotus cobra.
2.with Dryad arbor in your deck it enables your fetchlands to provide and instant speed effect to save any of your creatures that are about to be doombladed so you may play them again.
3. same thing as above but any fetchland cracking for a land will enable you to save a valued utility land like gaea's cradle from a stripmine.
4. Tap gaea's cradle for a million mana, play forest and return gaeas cradle to hand, play gaea's cradle again for a million more mana
5. let's you buyback any etb effect, playing Azusa and returning Eternal Witness to your hand is some good.
6. Get's really silly when a creatures etb effect creates creatures. basically turns Wolfbriar elemental into a buyback X wolf tokens every turn since you can use one of the tokens triggers to return the elemental itself. also works with avenger of zendikar but without it inplay it's harder to make use of the tokens.
7. easily enables you to go infinite, Azusa, a Gaea's Cradle that taps for 4 mana, and a Khalni Garden let you go inifnite mana tap cradle for mana, play khalni garden and have land trigger return cradle and creature trigger return azusa, then play azusa and with her two new land drops(she's a new object so new landdrop ability) play gaeas cradle returning khalni garden, tap cradle for more mana, then play garden and repeat.
8. Enables you to return your cycling lands you played early game back to your hand to be cycled for new cards, as well as reloading mosswort bridge.
two more cards i havent mentioned yet are Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Chord of Calling. Kamahl is a great mana sink, as well as turning your lands into creatures for large alpha strikes, or more fun turning opponents lands into creatures in response to board wipes. Chord of Calling is an instant speed Tutor that drops ANY creature into play that you can convoke. one of my favorite things to do with it is to use Avenger of Zendikars tokens to tutor up Regal force and draw alot of cards.
@Steuve: It doesn't make lands that just came into play attack, but thats not what the card is for. The card is used to ramp to arbitrarily large amounts of mana without stretching, and to go stupid with Gaea's Cradle. As per your suggestions:
Rites of Flourishing: While this looks appealing at a first glance, it runs counter suit to the ultimate goal of this deck, which is to outclass the tempo of the entire table collectively. So while this card gives you an extra land drop and card in hand, its giving your opposition a total of three cards and 3 land drops. This same philosophy applies for all group hug in general
Burgeoning: I used to run this card in the beginning stages of this deck, but was vastly underwhelmed with it at the time. It never accelerated me beyond Azusa's natural ramp, and so was often superfluous.
Explosive over Journey: Explosive is one more mana and will never end up putting more lands into play than Journey.
@Umbrella, For now I'm very tired, but Ill respond to you at a later time because you've suggested a lot of things that need to be addressed in order to optimize this deck.
I also think I will start to update my OP with a section of cards I do not run and the reasoning for each.
@Steuve: It doesn't make lands that just came into play attack, but thats not what the card is for. The card is used to ramp to arbitrarily large amounts of mana without stretching, and to go stupid with Gaea's Cradle. As per your suggestions:
Rites of Flourishing: While this looks appealing at a first glance, it runs counter suit to the ultimate goal of this deck, which is to outclass the tempo of the entire table collectively. So while this card gives you an extra land drop and card in hand, its giving your opposition a total of three cards and 3 land drops. This same philosophy applies for all group hug in general
Burgeoning: I used to run this card in the beginning stages of this deck, but was vastly underwhelmed with it at the time. It never accelerated me beyond Azusa's natural ramp, and so was often superfluous.
Explosive over Journey: Explosive is one more mana and will never end up putting more lands into play than Journey.
Thank you technogeek5000 for your time and this explanation. I see much better the way to include cards or not into this deck like Rites of Flourishing.
For Burgeonning I think I will give it a chance for a start and I'll see after that.
But for Explosive over Journey, I don't really see your point.
Explosive is 4 mana cost and it lets you put 2 lands into play tapped.
Journey is 6 mana cost with entwine to let you put 2 lands into play tapped otherwise it's 3 mana cost but lands are in your hand.
Journey is one mana cheaper and when you have azusa in play that just basically reads "Search two basics lands in your deck and put them in the play". If you have played extra mana already, you sure have mana to play it entwined and you still end with two untapped lands in play.
"8/1/2008: A noncreature permanent that turns into a creature is subject to the "summoning sickness" rule: It can only attack, and its {T} abilities can only be activated, if its controller has continuously controlled that permanent since the beginning of his or her most recent turn."
So the turn you play Inkmoth Nexus you could change it into a creature but it wouldn't do anything unless you had an effect giving it haste or similar. You could still activate it to block a creature during your opponents turn.
Thats why I always try to drop my animated lands 1st so next turn they can attack Inkmoth Nexus, Mutavault, etc....
Were arguing about the same thing, I just meant that if he thought it worked the way he did, inkmoth would suck. I'm agreeing with you about how the card works.
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Land
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
:3mana:, :symtap:, Sacrifice Havengul Fengraf: Return a creature card at random from your graveyard to your hand.
This seems to be very powerful and is going to replace Springjack Pasture when it comes out. Glad Dark Ascension gave this deck a powerful card that pretty much can be put in without much thought.
Another land I am considering running is Blinkmoth Well to give me another option for mana denial.
Also, how do you feel about Scouting Trek? I feel like with any of the land->draw enablers (Recycle, Horn of Greed, Oracle of Mul-Daya, to a lesser extent Sundial) that this could be rather amazing, guaranteeing you your next 5-10 land drops.
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when i say developed metas, it includes developed decks. all of your BiS cards... no jank. often times that means heavy nonbasics, leading to missed opportunity with sundering titan. another thing is, lots of people are going to share colors. you can only hit one island...if there are 3 u/x decks....what do you do (yeah i now the smart ass answer here is to hit their other color, but you know what i mean...hahah)? ive been put in enough situations where sundering titan wasnt a blow out play. therefore, in my eyes...he is a meta choice. he should be AMAZING very time he triggers. and "slamming the triple color player for 3 lands" is not always the right play. keeping people able to pilot their deck can benefit you greatly. doing it because you have to target them, or because you can can be bad news for you. strip mine and its ilk are all good and well, and being that your boy is a pro who consistently gets those openers with mana crypt, recycle, strip mine, port, forest, and all....im sure he chooses the right targets at the right time 100% of the time. he also rips crucible with the first browse trigger too right?
the only deck that has ever been that consistent at drawing openers like you talk about (out side of combo) were braids and erayo (both of which i used to play, so i know what im talking about here as well). as broken as those decks were, and as consistent as they were, you had to work pretty damn hard to get openers like that. and those decks played a ton of redundant cards. im sure that when your friend gets the godhand, its unbeatable. but im also sure you are inflating the numbers by like 99%.
first off...finely tuned and optimized are 2 different things. he may be tuned to your meta, but i garuntee if i sit with you guys for a game you will change your mind very fast about the deck building skills in question. i play optimized lists. the best cards hands down. every general is a puzzle, with a specific 99 to be played. i make it a point to find out what that perfect 99 should be.
decks built for speed lose someting elsewhere. speed costs you slots. slots you do not need to spend on those types of effects, at least to the extent that this guy is going with it. hes losing out on quality slots for when he dosent get the god hand(you know, the 1 in 100 where he dosent get it).
if your buddy there is getting consistent t1 mana crypts, sol rings and such...you should have a talk with him about proper shuffling. even if he aggressively mulls for it, its still bad IMO. lets say you go to 6 looking for fast mana. your sequence of plays are land > crypt > azusa > land > land, leaving you with 3 cards in hand with the multiplayer draw rule. running close to 60 lands, you can safely assume that at least one of those cards is a land. if one of those 2 cards are not a draw engine you are gonna lose all of that "tempo" you just struggled to create if you dont get one on the next turn. so lets say your hand was a random creature, like rofellos and a cultivate...and you draw...your sol ring? lets give your boy the benefit of the doubt here and say he draws a random draw engine....hes still not that far ahead unless its recycle. and for him to follow up that line of play with a recycle 9 times out of 10 would raise suspicion.
im actually not basing my arguments on my personal meta. im basing it on the year+ i have playing the deck at several shops and events, obsessing over it and optimizing it, throwing ideas back and forth with 2 of my buddies back home who also run azusa and spend time tinkering with her, and the hundereds of in house games i play at home with roomates (1v1 and ffa). i play this deck a lot. i have gone through several iterations and formulas for the deck. i know what i am talking about. in my book thats not being ignorant. saying that i have no idea what im talking about when you do not know my history with the general and how the deck should operate is lunacy.
myriad of coments belittling the deck? i said the deck was "meh". if your friend is gonna cry because i said his deck was "meh" he has some real serious personal issues, and should probably stop playing with azusa and seek counseling. and if you are going to freak because i said his deck was nothing special, hey...whatever. at least you guys have each other shoulders to cry on.
putting azusa on par with top tier blue based generals, known combo and solid rock lists is the dumbest statement someone can attempt to make. rock players will disenchant anything relevant because they can, combo decks can easily power through most non blue disruption and hardcore control will give any azusa pilots fits.
i agree, its not the average azusa list. its actually one of the better lists i have seen that did not come from my circle. but to market it as something it is not is just wrong. and regardless of how well you build it it will never EVER hang with the big dogs. and if you guys are getting beat by it....step your game up.
if it really comes down to it i will nitpick every card in the list if you want. i dont have the time for that though as i have to get ready for work soon.
What is with this and all of the personal attacks? Who said that turn 3 Gen wave or T&N happens every game? Who said that I get sol ring and mana crypt every opener, or always draw crucible?
If its a matter of terminology, then I hold that this deck is not just competitive and/or tuned, it is optimized in very much the same fashion you talk about. Yes, cards like Hunter's insight, omnath, elder, duplicant, springjack are on the radar to be taken out, but whats here isnt just an above average list marketed to be something it isnt.
I understand your point about the high land count affecting the consistency of the tempo of this deck. This is a valid point to make with a deck with so many lands, but its answered by the very high number of CA that this deck runs. Even if its not turn 1 mana crypt in the first 7, Exploration, ancient tomb, crop rotation for ancient tomb, etc... will achieve the same effect for an explosive opening, that is then reliably supplemented with a form of repeated draw. This kind of hand, I hold, happens on a regular basis. Hands with Mana crypt are usually nuts, but the former is far far more likely. In fact, I have been toying with wild growth as a way to do this more consistently.
You have viewpoints I disagree with. The sentiment that Azusa is incapable of competing with combo and blue control decks is one of them. The idea that every general has a perfect 99 is one that I do very much agree with, and its the reason I would like to open a critical dialogue, but I can't do that because you haven't really said anything concrete apart from the comments about the mana rocks and and the land count which have been addressed in the OP or in other comments.
I don't take offense to you saying my deck is meh, but I do take offense to you saying it and nothing concrete as to why you think so. If there's something better I could be doing, I am open to criticisms, and if I agree with them I'll incorporate it. I too am very familiar with Azusa and my own list, and I personally believe my list is close to fully optimized, which is why I am skeptical of the blank claims you make of this general's power level.
Edit: On your comments about Sundering Titan. Yes, while in competitive metas the manabases have a higher concentration of non basics, it is also true that that correlates to their being a higher number of fetchlands which increases the frequency of their being a variety of duals and shocks on the table, increasing the selection and overall impact of the card.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
I just think you all believe in a very dangerous deck building paragon. There is no such thing as an optimal 60... I mean 99. Magic and specific metagames are always changing, and every deck needs to adapt accordingly. If there was a perfect build for any one strategy, then there would be no need for deck builders and Magic would be a stagnant game. There are no sacred cows. You will eventually need to cards that you previously thought were "staples." Holding a glamorized notion of an optimal deck will ultimately just hold you back from discovering new interactions. Theory can only go so far.
On Hunter's Insight:
This card is garbage. It hinges too much on these contingencies:
-You never want it in your opening hand.
-You need to already have a huge dork in play (And if it's connecting, you were probably already winning.)
-You need your opponents to have nothing in their hand.
Yea this card's sweet.
I understand that this deck needs draw engines, but I think even Tower of Fortunes is better, and that has a huge opportunity cost. If I had to choose I think I'd put a primal command, it gets kozilek, it's incredibly flexible etc. etc.
On Mana Rocks:
BEDERPADERP (I just think this is funny): I guess I see where you're coming from on this issue, but I think it's just incorrect. I believe that your arguments against cards like sol ring and mana crypt are weak. Azusa does want to take advantage of its lands, but it also just wants to ahead on mana. You concede that these cards get an Azusa player "a littte ahead on mana," but why isn't that enough? Every margin matters, and more than that card economy matters. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt offer two mana at the cost of one card, and many other decks run them. "Other decks running them" seems like a poor argument but it matters much much more when you're an azusa deck that doesn't run them. Foregoing mana rocks forces the azusa player to match that ramp solely by playing extra land, and that comes at the cost of more cards all because that's what your general is "for."
Mana Crypt offers you the ability to play turn one azusa and have access to six mana on your second turn. This is clearly an example of variance, but it is a powerful draw that is available to an Azusa player that includes it. You can build for consistency in EDH, but for each additional player there is less and less that you can control as an individual anyway. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to draw at the high end of variance with a card like Mana Crypt. It doesn't really even come at the cost of consistency either. It saves on card economy, like I mentioned before, and its always adding 2 mana. I'm sure you can find something to do with that, you're an Azusa deck.
I also just think that the landfall and "what if you draw it?" assertions aren't that big of a deal. Technogeek's running 54 land, I somehow think that his avengers are still going to be more than servicable. And if he draws it? That's fine. He'll just cast spells with it, this deck is mana hungry, and honestly should have a bunch of mana sinks. More than that, he's drawing to cards like kozilek and garruk that fill his his hand with DI cards, he'll want to cast as many of them as possible to have an impact. This is where mana crypt and card economy come into play in my mind. One additional mana doesn't seem like a lot, but anyone who's played any sort of magic knows that it makes difference between games won and lost. Sure, other cards can offer this additional mana, but mana crypt does this while also drawing toward the benefit variance. It just seems awesome, but if jamming forests is what you want to do, then that's fine.
On Ad Hominem:
This got out of control really quickly, but I think the important thing boils down to this:
I mean he felt a little insulted by his deck being called "meh," but to be fair he does mention that he spent time on it, that's just a natural reaction. However, Techno clearly wants a productive discussion about how to better this deck. He's still going to argue his points, but that's how it should be.
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I do have to agree that Hunter's Insight is pretty much crap though, all the Snow-Covered Forests feel wasted without Scrying Sheets, and Lotus Cobra has always been an under performer for me...has it been working for you? Always saw cobra and found myself wishing if was something else.
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Also another include for a deck that runs fatties should be Nim Deathmantle. With all of the excess mana you can bring back some fatties after a board wipe. Each creature hitting triggers the deathmantle thus you can bring back multiple creatures but the last one will be attached to the deathmantle.
EDH
Thanks for the suggestions. First off, I recently surprised myself with the realization that Maze of Ith actually does very little for this deck. Against tier decks there generally aren't very many creatures turning sideways and against more traditional aggro decks I'm usually able to race them so the aggression wont matter. Also not having that extra mana in my opening hand is often the difference between a keepable hand and one that isn't. Maze has become Eldrazi Temple which has been good so far, and I dont see myself looking back. I wish it was buried ruin, as the power level of that card is blatantly obvious, its just that I would need to switch the list around so that I could abuse it more. I already have memory jar, crucible, and my draw engines, but I feel like thats still not enough. Perhaps oblivion stone could work.
I took out Life from the Loam early on in the deck's conception, as I needed more actual draw engines. It was great alot of the time, but too often I found myself with only loam, which, while still effective at keeping a consistent stream of lands, does not translate into board presence. I have added more draw since, so I could see myself running this again.
I don't really see the snow-covered's as wasted, as there is virtually no drawback to running them over regular forests and I have mouth of ronom. Cobra doesn't provide the same exponential benefit that rofellos does, but it does give 3 mana early on in the game every turn, which is still powerful enough.
Like SageOwl said, Hunter's Insight is being tested as a GSZ.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
I have a question concerning Rude Awakening : when you cast this card, do the 2/2 creatures have summoning sickness ? So how do you use this card without Akroma memorial or Concordant Crossroads ?
@technogeek5000 : Have you ever consider Burgeoning and Rites of Flourishing ?
Explosive vegetation over Journey of discovery for the mana cost with entwine ?
Cheers
When you play rude awakening any lands you turn into creatures that you played this turn have summoning sickness. Usually I play this card when I have tons of land in play. Flood the mana pool, play it entwined, use floating mana to play something and then swing with 10+ 2/2's.
For the other cards you mention, in my list I run journey of discovery, gaea's bounty, and seek the horizon. Burgeoning is cool but less abuseable that exploration is
Yeah but it says "until end of turn, lands you control become 2/2 creatures that are still lands." so + summoning sickness your 2/2 creatures are useless cause it's "until end of turn"
The only land that would be summoning sick are the ones that entered the battlefield the turn you played Rude Awakening.
It doesn't say that they enter the battlefield as creatures, its that they become creatures; if your ruling was the case, cards like Inkmoth Nexus, etc would be useless because they would always be summoning sick.
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Thank you MTGsupreme for your explanation. Now I see better the way how it works.
Not sure what you mean by lands always being sick??????
It says in the ruling for Rude Awakening:
"8/1/2008: A noncreature permanent that turns into a creature is subject to the "summoning sickness" rule: It can only attack, and its {T} abilities can only be activated, if its controller has continuously controlled that permanent since the beginning of his or her most recent turn."
So the turn you play Inkmoth Nexus you could change it into a creature but it wouldn't do anything unless you had an effect giving it haste or similar. You could still activate it to block a creature during your opponents turn.
Thats why I always try to drop my animated lands 1st so next turn they can attack Inkmoth Nexus, Mutavault, etc....
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1. Cycling lands- Tranquil Thicket, Blasted Landscape, and Slippery Karst. Lands that give you the option to turn into cards when they arent needed are great, but the fact that they can turn into a fairly degenerate draw engine with Life from the Loam (cycle, cycle, cycle and replace draw with dredge, Lftl, cycle, cycle, cycle and replace draw with dredge, repeat)
2. Life from the Loam- gets lands back let's you never miss land drops if grabbing fetchlands, let's you keep utility lands in check with stripmine or something, forms a powerful draw engine with cycling lands, and gives you alot of cards from sundial, horn of greed, and recycle from all those extra (preferably self sacrificing) lands played. a veritable swiss army knife of utility.
3. Dryad Arbor- It's a creature which is fetchable by fetchlands, It gives you an emergency chumpblock, it's recurrable with crucible/lftl, powers up Gaea's Cradle, and turns Green Sun's Zenith x=0 into one mana rampant growth. Khalni Garden is similarish
4. Green Sun's Zenith- Yes it can only grab green creatures, which means sadly no eldrazi you "merely" have to settle for Avenger, Primeval, Terastadon, or Vorinclex in the lategame but early game it also grabs utilty mana guys like Rofellos, Lotus cobra, Oracle, and my favorite Dryad Arbor which let's you have a t1 ramp spell enabling t2 Azusa.
5. Buried Ruin- It's a non-basic land that doesnt etb tapped, It may not have alot of targets in a deck like this but the things it does target are very useful. Brings back Duplicant, your artifact card drawers when they get destroyed, and Crucible. You dont know how fun it is to buried ruin a crucible, then immediatly replay your crucible from the yard. Also if you're into that sort of thing you can use it with Mindslaver for a repeatable mindslaver lock
7. Mass Haste outlet (Concordant Crossroads and Akroma's Memorial)- The only thing better than playing fat creatures is playing fat creatures then swinging with them immediately since people just love board wiping your juicy fat creatures. Being able to land a mass haste effect when you genesis wave makes you feel like Christmas has come early. Akroma's Memorial being an artifact also means that when it gets destroyed (it will get destroyed, people dont like Primeval Akroma bashing their heads in) that you can recur it with buried ruin which can be recurred by lftl/crucible
8. Wolfbriar Elemental- one card army that scales with your available mana. Even in a worst case scenario of not having alot of mana a 4/4 for 4 is still capable of laying down some beats
9. Reliquary tower- Utility land that doesnt etb tapped, let's you retain your hand whenever you start going nuts with horn of greed, lftl, and a few fetchlands/strip mine effects. Also works very nicely with Recycle when played/tutored into play after you have recycle, since timestamp order applies you'll have recycle and be able to retain the infinite handsize
10. Cloudstone Curio- not quite as optimized in your list since you dont run as many ETB creatures as i do, but this card tends to become the most important card in your deck when you have it. Here is just a fraction of the uses it provides to an Azusa deck.
1. It lets you hit all your land drops- simply being able to play a land and return another land let's you always get full value out of your landfall triggers like horn of greed and lotus cobra.
2.with Dryad arbor in your deck it enables your fetchlands to provide and instant speed effect to save any of your creatures that are about to be doombladed so you may play them again.
3. same thing as above but any fetchland cracking for a land will enable you to save a valued utility land like gaea's cradle from a stripmine.
4. Tap gaea's cradle for a million mana, play forest and return gaeas cradle to hand, play gaea's cradle again for a million more mana
5. let's you buyback any etb effect, playing Azusa and returning Eternal Witness to your hand is some good.
6. Get's really silly when a creatures etb effect creates creatures. basically turns Wolfbriar elemental into a buyback X wolf tokens every turn since you can use one of the tokens triggers to return the elemental itself. also works with avenger of zendikar but without it inplay it's harder to make use of the tokens.
7. easily enables you to go infinite, Azusa, a Gaea's Cradle that taps for 4 mana, and a Khalni Garden let you go inifnite mana tap cradle for mana, play khalni garden and have land trigger return cradle and creature trigger return azusa, then play azusa and with her two new land drops(she's a new object so new landdrop ability) play gaeas cradle returning khalni garden, tap cradle for more mana, then play garden and repeat.
8. Enables you to return your cycling lands you played early game back to your hand to be cycled for new cards, as well as reloading mosswort bridge.
two more cards i havent mentioned yet are Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Chord of Calling. Kamahl is a great mana sink, as well as turning your lands into creatures for large alpha strikes, or more fun turning opponents lands into creatures in response to board wipes. Chord of Calling is an instant speed Tutor that drops ANY creature into play that you can convoke. one of my favorite things to do with it is to use Avenger of Zendikars tokens to tutor up Regal force and draw alot of cards.
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Rites of Flourishing: While this looks appealing at a first glance, it runs counter suit to the ultimate goal of this deck, which is to outclass the tempo of the entire table collectively. So while this card gives you an extra land drop and card in hand, its giving your opposition a total of three cards and 3 land drops. This same philosophy applies for all group hug in general
Burgeoning: I used to run this card in the beginning stages of this deck, but was vastly underwhelmed with it at the time. It never accelerated me beyond Azusa's natural ramp, and so was often superfluous.
Explosive over Journey: Explosive is one more mana and will never end up putting more lands into play than Journey.
@Umbrella, For now I'm very tired, but Ill respond to you at a later time because you've suggested a lot of things that need to be addressed in order to optimize this deck.
I also think I will start to update my OP with a section of cards I do not run and the reasoning for each.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
Thank you technogeek5000 for your time and this explanation. I see much better the way to include cards or not into this deck like Rites of Flourishing.
For Burgeonning I think I will give it a chance for a start and I'll see after that.
But for Explosive over Journey, I don't really see your point.
Explosive is 4 mana cost and it lets you put 2 lands into play tapped.
Journey is 6 mana cost with entwine to let you put 2 lands into play tapped otherwise it's 3 mana cost but lands are in your hand.
Good suggestion if you have time to do this, this will be great
Ritual of Subdual dropped late game means that your opponent is going to have real problems stopping whatever you're doing.
Thanks !
Okay it convinces me for Journey
Were arguing about the same thing, I just meant that if he thought it worked the way he did, inkmoth would suck. I'm agreeing with you about how the card works.
btw, is this Jake from Manawerx?
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Land
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
:3mana:, :symtap:, Sacrifice Havengul Fengraf: Return a creature card at random from your graveyard to your hand.
This seems to be very powerful and is going to replace Springjack Pasture when it comes out. Glad Dark Ascension gave this deck a powerful card that pretty much can be put in without much thought.
Another land I am considering running is Blinkmoth Well to give me another option for mana denial.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
Also, how do you feel about Scouting Trek? I feel like with any of the land->draw enablers (Recycle, Horn of Greed, Oracle of Mul-Daya, to a lesser extent Sundial) that this could be rather amazing, guaranteeing you your next 5-10 land drops.
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Agreed, however, the price difference can make that difficult. As well as the ability to find one outside of the large internet retailers.
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