"Maybe that's what happens when a tornado meets a volcano."
- Eminem
I see a lot of people prefacing their Jhoira lists with assurances that they only want to make a casual deck with her, that they're not going to do any of the broken boring stuff like take infinite turns or nuke all the lands and beat with Eldrazi, that they're going to use Jhoira's powers for fun and chaos.
This deck makes no such claims.
Jhoira is a hated general. She's not in the same class as Zur, Azami, or Uril, but players know she's something to be feared. I don't want to be hated out of games because I was trying to make a fun deck and it just so happened that my general was a douche - if I'm going to be hated out, I want it to be for the right reasons. Jhoira sitting in the command zone is a gauntlet being thrown down: deal with Jhoira fast, or you'll have to deal with the Eldrazi instead.
Notable Cards/Combos
The Wheel effects (Memory Jar, Dragon Mage, etc.): These keep the deck going after a reset button lands. Because Jhoira is fairly cheap, even if she dies in the first reset you can often recast her from mana rocks and start suspending a second wave of stuff.
The counterspells: Need to be cheap and hard, for blunting removal on freshly-unsuspended creatures or for forcing mass LD to resolve. Some aren't permanent solutions to things, but most of the time just one extra turn is all you need to turn the whole game in your favour.
The mana rocks: Also must be cheap, to land before Jhoira. Dreamstone Hedron is an exception, but that's because three is a lot of cards to draw at once; it's also suspended just as often as it's hardcast.
The big non-Eldrazi beaters: Have to be able to invalidate something of my opponent's. The more the better.
Magus of the Jar: Since this is almost always suspended, it's a second Memory Jar.
Phyrexian Metamorph: Metamorph is more often than not a mana rock, but there is one very important creature it can take care of - Jin-Gitaxias. If left alone for too long, decking out is a real possibility, and if you've already resolved both your Eldrazi titans and you're worried Reliquary Tower might be in your last less-than-seven cards, then either copy Jin or an Eldrazi and stop your library leaking all over the place.
Parallel Thoughts: Is really good with Draw-7s, especially the ones that cost nothing to use, because you can put all your broken stuff underneath it and then suspend it all at once.
Possibility Storm: Most of the spells in this deck do kinda the same stuff, so Possibility Storm isn't that tough to play through even if you don't use Jhoira to circumvent the "from your hand" clause. Meanwhile, it gives most other decks fits trying to remove it - or do anything meaningful at all, really. (Note: Storming an instant is not reccommended.)
Savor the Moment: I don't really like the extra turn cards because they slow games down too much. Extra turn cards are in, hard mode as been engaged. However, Savor the Moment is also pretty good for basically being "Remove a time counter from all your suspended cards, draw a card".
12-08-08: -Mountain, Winds of Change, +Vivid Crag, Reforge the Soul
12-11-08: -Kederekt Lviathan, Cauldron of Souls, Journeyer's Kite, Lilting Refrain, Soothsaying, Trade Routes, Clockspinning, Ertai's Meddling, Lat-Nam's Legacy, Redirect, Swerve, See Beyond, +Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Tyrant of Discord, Tectonic Instability, Counterspell, Devastation Tide, Temporal Cascade, Temporal Mastery, Time Stretch, Time Warp, Walk the Aeons, Winds of Change
2012-11-23: -Desolate Lighthouse, Izzet Boilerworks, Riptide Laboratory, Tolaria West, Vivid Creek, Vivid Crag, Ancestral Vision, Bloodfire Colossus, Destructive Force, Devastation Tide, Pongify, Ponder, Stometide Leviathan, Temporal Cascade, Thran Turbine, Wheel of Fate, +Island (2), Mountain, Apocalypse, Arcane Denial, Devastation, Fellwar Stone, Fire Diamond, Grim Monolith, Mana Leak, Mind Stone, Prismatic Lens, Ruination, Sky Diamond, Wayfarer's Bauble, Wheel of Fortune
2013-05-30: -Tectonic Instability, +Keldon Firebombers
2013-08-15: -Impulse, +Possibility Storm
I just wanna say that: you inspired me you have a point about playing a hated general, then simply living up to that reputation. I run a Tibor and Lumia deck with the same strategy. The generals are very low radar, so people don't usually pay attention to me while I set up my land destructions. Jhiora seems like a better general though. Do you ever feel bored with her? Or do you think she's fun (for you at least). Also, you should add Karn Liberated. He is fun to suspend and and is great removal on a stick (:
I play this deck only very rarely, because Jhoira is a mean *****. It's very much a glass cannon - you either get to untap with Jhoira on turn three and you suspend broken stuff and you win, or everyone recognises Jhoira for being a fun-crusher and they keep her off the table before she can do anything dangerous. It's fun to have one of the boogeymen of the format in my deckbox, to just have the option available, but, yeah, it's usually the longest time between when I use it.
I tried to stay away from expensive cards that can only deal with one permanent. Chaos Warp isn't too bad of an idea, though, since it's flexible while still being cheap (just). Can't think of why I don't have Apocalypse in the list; I was probably turned off by only me exiling my hand, but that's actually less of a problem if I hardcast Apocalypse with stuff in exile ready to unsuspend. Might have to reconsider that one.
I have also been thinking about going full-out and making the deck as terrible as possible - and by that I mean Time Walks and proper counterspells. What are the extra turn spells that typically get used? Time Warp, Time Stretch, Beacon of Tomorrows, Walk the Aeons... the new one, I guess, with miracle. That should be enough. They'd replace some of the draw spells, since they basically do the same thing. Not sure which counterspells are the best, though - probably the cheap hard ones like Counterspell and Arcane Denial. Might be a place for Negate and Dispel, too, since mostly what I want is protection against countermagic and very cheap removal (ie. StP, Path).
I like Dissipate as a counterspell actually ^^.
For the time warp effects I would only use Time Warp and Time Stretch (but that's just personal preference). Really mean is when you Fork those spells (time walk effects). Fork the Time stretch? Hell YEA!
Glass cannon indeed, and she probably see's a lot of hate.
Would it be an option to play two headed giant edh?
Three mana's a bit too expensive for a counterspell if I'm planning to regularly blow up all the lands, and I think I'd want at least five extra turn effects to ever see them in games - there's no tutors aside from Intuition so I'd need three at bare minimum, but five + various Wheel effects should give me a decent chance of finding one and having time to suspend it.
Forks are super-conditional and very poor with the rest of the spells in the deck.
I'm not a fan of 2HG in normal formats, and I imagine everything I don't like about it - games being incredibly slow because you have to keep talking in half-sentences with your teammate - only gets a thousand times worse in EDH. But Jhoira probably is a decent player in team formats. I imagine she'd be a flavourful Emperor.
at any given time I have at least 2 EDH decks, one casual, and 1 competitive. When I ask around and everyone claims their deck can handle it and Riku wins by single handedly controlling 4 players, (without needing the combo kill). Then I know I should have used the casual deck...
But no matter what people say nothing is more fun than getting 4-8 people with High caliber powerful (group oriented) EDH decks. It becomes a game of who can be the most broken, and who can push their broken stuff through because everyone is trying to stop them. In short if everyone is playing an absurdly broken deck, then no one's deck will run away with the game.
So when you say you want a deck that takes no prisoners, pulls no punches and does the most broken things available. I say more power to you the game is more fun with a jhoira player at the table.
I tried building a jhoira deck using her as a U/R artifact general, and i was only gonna use her to suspend expensive stuff like darksteel forge. But the first time i went t3 jhoira t4 suspend obliterate+blightsteel colossus the whole mood of the deck started to change and focus around her. You can't have jhoira as a general and be casual, she takes on a life of her own.:D
But then you would screw over your allies I think :p.
You have lat-nams legacy too, isn't that a tutor?
Why are forks conditional? You can redirect burn damage, copy spells that target you (path to exiles and stuff) perhaps copy some ramp, copy your own time warps.
Are you happy with destructive force?
When I first played EDH several years ago, Jhoira was my first general, but I put her away long ago because of all the hate that was generated, (Even though my list was far from optimal, since I, as most others were EDH noobs at the time.)
Your list has inspired me once again to go back to my edh roots and bust out jhoira again. As for your proposed changes to get some extra turns in there and some more counterspells, I agree 110%. In addition, to get to those mana costs to cast time warps and to take full advantage of them, I'd propose to add more mana rocks to the list. They add the following advantages:
1) Quickly get Jhoira out with two extra mana to suspend. (Thus suspending something scary, even if someone kills Jhoira.)
2) Ramps you up to time warps easily (These things aren't cheap.)
3) Makes better use of your extra turns, since more mana means you can get more out of them.
4) Makes late/mid game hard castings of obliterate and the gang more plausible. (Imagine the surprise when you hard cast jokulhaups or obliterate, instead of suspending it, with Fattie(s) suspended.)
5) Makes it somewhat plausible to cast Eldrazi's If Jhoira gets tucked.
6) Allows cards like Devastation or any LD card to become more one-sided.
Just thought I'd share this So when I played jhoira my favorite table kill ever. I suspended a time spitral, wheel of fortune, wheel of fate, time reversal, windfall, and a molten psyche while i had metal craft with mana rocks I suspended them over 2 turns but used clockspinning to make them all happen at the same time except molten psyche which resolved on my second upkeep due to paradox haze.
I tried building a jhoira deck using her as a U/R artifact general, and i was only gonna use her to suspend expensive stuff like darksteel forge. But the first time i went t3 jhoira t4 suspend obliterate+blightsteel colossus the whole mood of the deck started to change and focus around her. You can't have jhoira as a general and be casual, she takes on a life of her own.:D
There's another guy in the area with a Jhoira deck, and it's just big dumb creatures and other stupidly expensive things, no LD, extra turns, or creatures with annihilator. It seems to get stomped on just as much as if it was Mean Jhoira.dec, so I figure I might as well try to actually win if I'm going to play a scary general.
But then you would screw over your allies I think :p.
You have lat-nams legacy too, isn't that a tutor?
Why are forks conditional? You can redirect burn damage, copy spells that target you (path to exiles and stuff) perhaps copy some ramp, copy your own time warps.
Are you happy with destructive force?
Jhoira gets protection from her teammates, and she provides the muscle. It doesn't matter if you blow up your team's land too, if your team has the Kozilek.
Lat-Nam's Legacy is a bad See Beyond. It's a draw spell. But Parallel Thoughts is a tutor (of sorts), but I was planning to cut that.
All those things that a Fork can do prove why it's conditional. It depends far too much on what everyone else is doing and what's in your hand at the time. In a deck that's loaded with redundant effects, I want to avoid anythin that's doing different stuff all the time.
Destructive Force is alright. It's obviously better than Wildfire, and it sacrifices land rather than destroys them, which is a nice benefit for It That Betrays. It rarely gets all the land in play, but it should slow the game down enough for me to take it over.
In addition, to get to those mana costs to cast time warps and to take full advantage of them, I'd propose to add more mana rocks to the list. They add the following advantages:
(lots of legit points)
Agreed. I thought I had more mana rocks in the deck, actually, but it seems to not be too much beyond what people consider the bare minimum of a mana rock package, plus the weird things that generate mana during upkeep. I think I initially stayed away from too much artifact accel because half of Red's LD takes it along with the lands, but I could adjust what I've got to be more focused around just taking out the land (Devestation, Ruination, maybe Bend or Break).
After two big revisions, Jhoira is now more like the stereotypical jackass Jhoira deck than ever. I've wanted to have a deck built around one of the boogiemen of the format - and of those top-tier fun-crushers, Jhoira is my favourite - and now I have it. Is it as mean and streamlined as possible?
Notable Cards/Combos
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
Epic Signature by the one and only Ace in Ace of Spades Studio
Proud member of the Spirit of EDH
BGW Teneb, the Harvester [Primer]
R Márton Stromgald
WUB Dakkon Blackblade
GR Atarka, World Render
{Writing and Rants}
WUBRG The Primeval Dragon's influence on EDH
First of all do you still play the deck?
And how does it roll?
Second another suggestion might be Chaos Warp or Aftershock,
also Apocalypse
Neheb
Marath
Yidris
Sharuum
Yidris
I tried to stay away from expensive cards that can only deal with one permanent. Chaos Warp isn't too bad of an idea, though, since it's flexible while still being cheap (just). Can't think of why I don't have Apocalypse in the list; I was probably turned off by only me exiling my hand, but that's actually less of a problem if I hardcast Apocalypse with stuff in exile ready to unsuspend. Might have to reconsider that one.
I have also been thinking about going full-out and making the deck as terrible as possible - and by that I mean Time Walks and proper counterspells. What are the extra turn spells that typically get used? Time Warp, Time Stretch, Beacon of Tomorrows, Walk the Aeons... the new one, I guess, with miracle. That should be enough. They'd replace some of the draw spells, since they basically do the same thing. Not sure which counterspells are the best, though - probably the cheap hard ones like Counterspell and Arcane Denial. Might be a place for Negate and Dispel, too, since mostly what I want is protection against countermagic and very cheap removal (ie. StP, Path).
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
For the time warp effects I would only use Time Warp and Time Stretch (but that's just personal preference). Really mean is when you Fork those spells (time walk effects). Fork the Time stretch? Hell YEA!
Glass cannon indeed, and she probably see's a lot of hate.
Would it be an option to play two headed giant edh?
Neheb
Marath
Yidris
Sharuum
Yidris
Forks are super-conditional and very poor with the rest of the spells in the deck.
I'm not a fan of 2HG in normal formats, and I imagine everything I don't like about it - games being incredibly slow because you have to keep talking in half-sentences with your teammate - only gets a thousand times worse in EDH. But Jhoira probably is a decent player in team formats. I imagine she'd be a flavourful Emperor.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
at any given time I have at least 2 EDH decks, one casual, and 1 competitive. When I ask around and everyone claims their deck can handle it and Riku wins by single handedly controlling 4 players, (without needing the combo kill). Then I know I should have used the casual deck...
But no matter what people say nothing is more fun than getting 4-8 people with High caliber powerful (group oriented) EDH decks. It becomes a game of who can be the most broken, and who can push their broken stuff through because everyone is trying to stop them. In short if everyone is playing an absurdly broken deck, then no one's deck will run away with the game.
So when you say you want a deck that takes no prisoners, pulls no punches and does the most broken things available. I say more power to you the game is more fun with a jhoira player at the table.
I tried building a jhoira deck using her as a U/R artifact general, and i was only gonna use her to suspend expensive stuff like darksteel forge. But the first time i went t3 jhoira t4 suspend obliterate+blightsteel colossus the whole mood of the deck started to change and focus around her. You can't have jhoira as a general and be casual, she takes on a life of her own.:D
Gfast animals slow shildrenG
51-18-4 (retired as of 6-4-11)
You have lat-nams legacy too, isn't that a tutor?
Why are forks conditional? You can redirect burn damage, copy spells that target you (path to exiles and stuff) perhaps copy some ramp, copy your own time warps.
Are you happy with destructive force?
Neheb
Marath
Yidris
Sharuum
Yidris
Your list has inspired me once again to go back to my edh roots and bust out jhoira again. As for your proposed changes to get some extra turns in there and some more counterspells, I agree 110%. In addition, to get to those mana costs to cast time warps and to take full advantage of them, I'd propose to add more mana rocks to the list. They add the following advantages:
1) Quickly get Jhoira out with two extra mana to suspend. (Thus suspending something scary, even if someone kills Jhoira.)
2) Ramps you up to time warps easily (These things aren't cheap.)
3) Makes better use of your extra turns, since more mana means you can get more out of them.
4) Makes late/mid game hard castings of obliterate and the gang more plausible. (Imagine the surprise when you hard cast jokulhaups or obliterate, instead of suspending it, with Fattie(s) suspended.)
5) Makes it somewhat plausible to cast Eldrazi's If Jhoira gets tucked.
6) Allows cards like Devastation or any LD card to become more one-sided.
7) Allows you to possibly take advantage of artifact synergies like Kuldoltha Forgemaster or Master Transmuter for Blightsteel Colossus, it's Darksteel friend or Inkwell Leviathan.
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
Mizzix of the Izmagnus Decklist
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow Decklist
My Current Set Cube Lists:
Kamigawa Re-Experience
Ravnica, City of Guilds Re-Experience
Alara Re-Experience
felt like a total boss for pulling that off.
Gfast animals slow shildrenG
51-18-4 (retired as of 6-4-11)
There's another guy in the area with a Jhoira deck, and it's just big dumb creatures and other stupidly expensive things, no LD, extra turns, or creatures with annihilator. It seems to get stomped on just as much as if it was Mean Jhoira.dec, so I figure I might as well try to actually win if I'm going to play a scary general.
Jhoira gets protection from her teammates, and she provides the muscle. It doesn't matter if you blow up your team's land too, if your team has the Kozilek.
Lat-Nam's Legacy is a bad See Beyond. It's a draw spell. But Parallel Thoughts is a tutor (of sorts), but I was planning to cut that.
All those things that a Fork can do prove why it's conditional. It depends far too much on what everyone else is doing and what's in your hand at the time. In a deck that's loaded with redundant effects, I want to avoid anythin that's doing different stuff all the time.
Destructive Force is alright. It's obviously better than Wildfire, and it sacrifices land rather than destroys them, which is a nice benefit for It That Betrays. It rarely gets all the land in play, but it should slow the game down enough for me to take it over.
Agreed. I thought I had more mana rocks in the deck, actually, but it seems to not be too much beyond what people consider the bare minimum of a mana rock package, plus the weird things that generate mana during upkeep. I think I initially stayed away from too much artifact accel because half of Red's LD takes it along with the lands, but I could adjust what I've got to be more focused around just taking out the land (Devestation, Ruination, maybe Bend or Break).
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
Neheb
Marath
Yidris
Sharuum
Yidris
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.