Can someone explain to me exactly how Celestial Dawn locks a non white player out of the game? CD reads,
"Lands you control are Plains.
Nonland cards you own that aren't on the battlefield, spells you control, and nonland permanents you control are white.
You may spend white mana as though it were mana of any color. You may spend other mana only as though it were colorless mana."
So from what I can infer, CD makes your general white because it is a nonland card you own that is not on the battlefield. If CD makes their general white, why wouldn't they be able to play spells as normal with the second clause of CD of being able to spend white mana as though it were mana of any color?
Also, they can't produce white mana if they don't have a white general. If they tap their "plains" they would only be producing colorless mana because lands they control can't produce white because their general isn't white.
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Bahaha, you're totally right. Any other creature without pro red white or blue should work with that interaction. Pro-tip: I can actually donate donate Akroma with donate
What about donating stuff like Moat? Seems pretty foolproof, considering it won't let anybody attack, so it's less likely to bite you in the ass. Great way to make a buddy, too!
The Commander's Color Identity is determined before the game starts and can't change =)
Alright, this was more of what I was looking for. I knew that the idea behind CD was that they would have white mana although due to the rules of the format, they could not tap for a color not in their general's color identity. The trick is in the fact that it is apparently determined before the game starts and cannot change.
My intention with homeward path is half political and half strategic. As Sheldon (yes, Sheldon), suggested earlier in the thread:
I can donate my creature, Akroma, Angel of Wrath for argument's sake, to screw an opponent who is attacking someone else. I net some free removal from the process when my Akroma blocks for another player. Then at eot, Akroma clicks her heels three times, says "there's no place like homeward path" and ends up back on my side. Hell, I can even bring hasty creatures like her back during my main phase and draw a card off of Zedruu.
I can loan out all sorts of dudes and revoke their loaned-out status whenever I want with a simple, free tap of my land.
EDIT: SuperSonik beat me to explaining it! Must type faster.
Yea, that is a good idea. I am glad i have land search in my zedruu deck. (Which i used your recipe as a skeleton.)
I don't really see it as a bad draw most of the time. If you draw it and drop it, it's a blatant show that you can and will take away Christmas if someone messes with you.
I don't really see it as a bad draw most of the time. If you draw it and drop it, it's a blatant show that you can and will take away Christmas if someone messes with you.
Decks:
Standard WRath abuse BR Burning Crawler W Puresteel Humans
EDH:
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Zirilan of the Claw
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Rosheen, the Meanderer
Vela the Night-Clad
I think Copy Enchantment could have a nice home here. It can copy your enchantment-based removal, the harmful enchantments that you want to donate, or even Paradox Haze for more Zedruu triggers.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
So curious, is your defense board wipes while you prepare to set up? Because my build im planning us a bit more creature heavy but I love the full control package
I was just trying to list all of the commonly played cards I've seen for this deck type. I didn't list the more generic ones that see play across generals, like Austere Command, Lightning Greaves, etc... More the stuff that fits theme and general here.
I think Copy Enchantment could have a nice home here. It can copy your enchantment-based removal, the harmful enchantments that you want to donate, or even Paradox Haze for more Zedruu triggers.
Absolutely awesome idea. Copy Enchantment has so many fantastic targets in here. As soon as I obtain one I'll make room for it.
So curious, is your defense board wipes while you prepare to set up? Because my build im planning us a bit more creature heavy but I love the full control package
Somewhat. I'm shooting for a control deck that uses Zedruu as a draw engine and combo enabler. The board wipes do exactly what you think they do- flatten out an unruly board and buy me some time to establish myself. I might throw in some more mid-range fatties to clog up the board. I find that I like having something threatening like Yosei, the Morning Star sitting on defense.
Trying to put together a list of all the cool combos the deck can put together.
That, sir, is one complete list. When I first envisioned the deck, I had a lot more donate targets. But I found in testing that too many of them clogged your hand without doing much of anything, and some of them are just too weak of an effect to really run (ie Bronze Bombshell.
There is a lot of discussion in over how to use this general. Some have argued for a more political approach, some more combo oriented, and some more control oriented. It's actually a testament to the flexibility, power and overall good design of Zedruu.
I'll link to your list in my main post (the thread seems pretty popular!) for everyone's reference. Thanks!
Do you have a reliable or consistant way to get rid of Illusions of Grandeur, and Delussions...Besides swiping the board (yourself or someone else) and Venser?
Is it enough? How about some bounce?
Illusions of Grandeur removes itself eventually thanks to cumulative upkeep. Delusions is both weaker and doesn't self-destruct, so I'm a lot less attracted to it.
I'm Still shocked that no one is playing Spine of Ish Sah. Drop it to destroy a permanent, then give it away for card draw. Another fun one is Darksteel Relic. Indestructible artifact that also nets you a card off your general is really good.
I don't think Norn's Annex is that good at all, actually. Why give a player a choice to pay mana or life? Just lock 'em up at per creature. Most players will be happy to pay life to wreck your face versus much more valuable mana, at least until the very end of the game. It also costs more mana (or life) than playing the others. It's also an artifact, and therefore more vulnerable to removal than the enchantments.
You're also off base about darksteel relic. You don't want to be playing cards that are nothing but donate targets because they suck without your general (well, except the really good ones). Would you really play a card that costs WUR and read "at the beginning of your upkeep, if your general is in play under your control, draw a card and gain a life"? I wouldn't. Play enchantment-based removal and donate that instead, as the OP has been doing so far.
I wonder if an enchantress theme is a good idea for this deck because of the Zedruu synergy. Not saying you should change up everything now but there are definitely benefits to be had focusing on that permanent type, not the least of which is Mesa Enchantress and Serra's Sanctum and friends.
I don't think Norn's Annex is that good at all, actually. Why give a player a choice to pay mana or life? Just lock 'em up at per creature. Most players will be happy to pay life to wreck your face versus much more valuable mana, at least until the very end of the game. It also costs more mana (or life) than playing the others. It's also an artifact, and therefore more vulnerable to removal than the enchantments.
Spine is no better than O-ring and the likes. I know It destroys a permanent but the "You can donate it to net a card" comment doesn't justify its high cost and poor political effect.
Taking about politics...All the enchantments above seem preatty cool for defending yourself, but They are converting the deck into a griefer deck, wich is really different from a political one. I'd play enchantmest that protect me in a better way and if i decide to "donate" them they will compasate/hurt my opponent/ally...like Righteous Aura or Island Sanctuary, or Solitary Confinment
If you play Propaganda for an instance, you can give to someone and be political, but there is no colateral damage about it...Not good enough.
I know the deck has to have some bitter gifts in the list, but at the same time It has to maintain its political nature. Just saying...
Most of those enchantments only effect people trying to attack the controller. The artifacts mentioned are a little griefy though...
If it came down to it you could still use the enchantments politically if someone was taking a lot of heat. Really the deck idea gives room for some very out of the box thinking.
I'm Still shocked that no one is playing Spine of Ish Sah. Drop it to destroy a permanent, then give it away for card draw. Another fun one is Darksteel Relic. Indestructible artifact that also nets you a card off your general is really good.
Sorry, missed that one. If I missed anything that anyone thinks should be on the list, just let me know and I'll update. Just trying to compile a list so people can pick from them.
"Lands you control are Plains.
Nonland cards you own that aren't on the battlefield, spells you control, and nonland permanents you control are white.
You may spend white mana as though it were mana of any color. You may spend other mana only as though it were colorless mana."
So from what I can infer, CD makes your general white because it is a nonland card you own that is not on the battlefield. If CD makes their general white, why wouldn't they be able to play spells as normal with the second clause of CD of being able to spend white mana as though it were mana of any color?
Sale/Buy List!!!
Trade Thread---V
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=89415 - Down atm
Sell/Buy List--V
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7460848#post7460848
Twitter!!
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EDH
Azami (video)
:symw::symb::symg: Teneb (video)
Drana (video) (retired)
:symw::symr: Brion (video)
:symb::symr: Wort (video)
Arcum (video) (retired)
:symr::symg: Stonebrow (video)
B Shirei (video)
WU Rasputin (video) (retired)
R Urabrask (video)
WUR Zedruu (video) (retired)
W Isamaru
UB Grimgrin
U Mistform Ultimus (video)
UBR Gwendlyn (video)
URG Animar (video)
RG Thromok
WB Selenia
Standard
WU Geist of Saint Traft standard EDH (video) (retired)
WUB Battle of Wits!
My decks
Top 4 (4th) SCG IQ 11/4/12
You can't donate either Akroma, because Zedruu targets and is both red and blue But other fatties work just as well!
What about donating stuff like Moat? Seems pretty foolproof, considering it won't let anybody attack, so it's less likely to bite you in the ass. Great way to make a buddy, too!
On a side note, it's a pity we don't have black for the tutoring effects, that would have been really great with this deck.
Alright, this was more of what I was looking for. I knew that the idea behind CD was that they would have white mana although due to the rules of the format, they could not tap for a color not in their general's color identity. The trick is in the fact that it is apparently determined before the game starts and cannot change.
Thanks.
Sale/Buy List!!!
Trade Thread---V
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=89415 - Down atm
Sell/Buy List--V
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7460848#post7460848
Twitter!!
http://twitter.com/AaronRWilburn
Yea, that is a good idea. I am glad i have land search in my zedruu deck. (Which i used your recipe as a skeleton.)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Mind if I sig that?
Decks:
Standard
WRath abuse
BR Burning Crawler
W Puresteel Humans
EDH:
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Zirilan of the Claw
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Rosheen, the Meanderer
Vela the Night-Clad
i'm not even gonna ask for permission.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
RWU: Go for it. I'll take life and some cards for a sig quote.
RG Wort, the Raidmother GR - 1v1
UGW Rafiq of the Many WGU - Multiplayer
BW Ghost Council of Orzhova WB - Multiplayer
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Gauntlets of Chaos
1 Political Trickery
1 Gilded Drake
1 Vedalken Plotter
1 Puca's Mischief
1 Legerdemain
1 Juxtapose
1 Shifting Borders
1 Spawnbroker
1 Chromeshell Crab
1 Cultural Exchange
Change Control
1 Donate
1 Bazaar Trader
1 Brand
1 Homeward Path
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Mistmeadow Witch
1 Rainbow Vale
Good to Give Away
1 Illusions of Grandeur
1 Delusions of Mediocrity
1 Thought Lash
1 Taniwha
1 Celestial Dawn
1 Steel Golem
1 Grid Monitor
1 Pyromancer's Swath
1 Transcendence
1 Rust Elemental
1 Bronze Bombshell
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Molten Firebird
1 Ivory Gargoyle
1 Pithing Needle
1 Howling Mine
1 Paradox Haze
1 Jinxed Idol
1 Norin the Wary
Removal/Good No Matter Who Controls It
1 Arrest
1 Pacifism
1 Temporal Isolation
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Prison Term
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Replenish
1 Copy Enchantment
Protection
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Windborn Muse
1 Collective Restraint
1 Blazing Archon
1 Fatespinner
1 Norn's Annex
Copy/Divert Spells
1 Shunt
1 Fork
1 Reiterate
1 Twincast
1 Wild Ricochet
1 Richochet Trap
1 Swerve
1 Misdirection
1 Mirrorweave
1 Spelljack
1 Commandeer
1 Desertion
1 Psychosis Crawler
1 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Words of War
1 Insurrection
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
I was just trying to list all of the commonly played cards I've seen for this deck type. I didn't list the more generic ones that see play across generals, like Austere Command, Lightning Greaves, etc... More the stuff that fits theme and general here.
Absolutely awesome idea. Copy Enchantment has so many fantastic targets in here. As soon as I obtain one I'll make room for it.
Somewhat. I'm shooting for a control deck that uses Zedruu as a draw engine and combo enabler. The board wipes do exactly what you think they do- flatten out an unruly board and buy me some time to establish myself. I might throw in some more mid-range fatties to clog up the board. I find that I like having something threatening like Yosei, the Morning Star sitting on defense.
That, sir, is one complete list. When I first envisioned the deck, I had a lot more donate targets. But I found in testing that too many of them clogged your hand without doing much of anything, and some of them are just too weak of an effect to really run (ie Bronze Bombshell.
There is a lot of discussion in over how to use this general. Some have argued for a more political approach, some more combo oriented, and some more control oriented. It's actually a testament to the flexibility, power and overall good design of Zedruu.
I'll link to your list in my main post (the thread seems pretty popular!) for everyone's reference. Thanks!
Is it enough? How about some bounce?
I Am just wondering since im finishing my list.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
RG Wort, the Raidmother GR - 1v1
UGW Rafiq of the Many WGU - Multiplayer
BW Ghost Council of Orzhova WB - Multiplayer
I really think that Norn's Annex is a better defense than any of the following:
Propaganda
Ghostly Prison
Windborn Muse
Collective Restraint
I'm Still shocked that no one is playing Spine of Ish Sah. Drop it to destroy a permanent, then give it away for card draw. Another fun one is Darksteel Relic. Indestructible artifact that also nets you a card off your general is really good.
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
I don't think Norn's Annex is that good at all, actually. Why give a player a choice to pay mana or life? Just lock 'em up at per creature. Most players will be happy to pay life to wreck your face versus much more valuable mana, at least until the very end of the game. It also costs more mana (or life) than playing the others. It's also an artifact, and therefore more vulnerable to removal than the enchantments.
You're also off base about darksteel relic. You don't want to be playing cards that are nothing but donate targets because they suck without your general (well, except the really good ones). Would you really play a card that costs WUR and read "at the beginning of your upkeep, if your general is in play under your control, draw a card and gain a life"? I wouldn't. Play enchantment-based removal and donate that instead, as the OP has been doing so far.
I wonder if an enchantress theme is a good idea for this deck because of the Zedruu synergy. Not saying you should change up everything now but there are definitely benefits to be had focusing on that permanent type, not the least of which is Mesa Enchantress and Serra's Sanctum and friends.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Amen!
Have you thought about Ensnaring Bridge to potentially stop all attempts on your life (combat wise)? Crawlspace and Silent Arbiter could also make combat very manageable, especially if you use Maze of Ith, Kor Haven, or Mystifying Maze
Those would at least let you sit there and do what you wanted, and don't require donating thus making them viable without your general if needed.
I know they're all artifacts...but what can you do?
UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV-Last edit 12/02/11
RStarke of Rath - Last edit 11/30/11
GAzusa, Lost but Seeking - Last Edit 11/29/11
BPatron of the Nezumi - Last edit 11/29/11
Taking about politics...All the enchantments above seem preatty cool for defending yourself, but They are converting the deck into a griefer deck, wich is really different from a political one. I'd play enchantmest that protect me in a better way and if i decide to "donate" them they will compasate/hurt my opponent/ally...like Righteous Aura or Island Sanctuary, or Solitary Confinment
If you play Propaganda for an instance, you can give to someone and be political, but there is no colateral damage about it...Not good enough.
I know the deck has to have some bitter gifts in the list, but at the same time It has to maintain its political nature. Just saying...
Edit: Psychic Vortex is worth to look at.
If it came down to it you could still use the enchantments politically if someone was taking a lot of heat. Really the deck idea gives room for some very out of the box thinking.
UWGrand Arbiter Augustin IV-Last edit 12/02/11
RStarke of Rath - Last edit 11/30/11
GAzusa, Lost but Seeking - Last Edit 11/29/11
BPatron of the Nezumi - Last edit 11/29/11
Sorry, missed that one. If I missed anything that anyone thinks should be on the list, just let me know and I'll update. Just trying to compile a list so people can pick from them.