It would probably come down to a lot of the non druid cards we would include that the discussion would come in.
But I agree when looking at a mono G tribal list there probably wouldnt be as many things to work out... Still it would be fun and something a bit out of the norm for building.
EDIT: It would be such a fun G Wave sort of deck though...
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Ha I totally bought a foil one of him the other day fully intending to build him up. Mayhaps we should build a list of him sometime just for kicks. I think there are a lot of ways to really build it.
I have always had issues with it though because I keep getting a good list going but wishing to make it more competative.
For sure!
Our failed Azami project makes me think that we need to be more careful about another such projects, though. But yes, he does sound like fun. Sanity, I'm sure you can find ways to help as well!
The thing about this Rhys deck is that I feel as though I'm quite experienced in most token options already, so I built the list in such a way that it is quite tight and hard to further improve with the current card pool. It is very strong the way it is now. Might still make a few changes, though.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
The thing about this Rhys deck is that I feel as though I'm quite experienced in most token options already, so I built the list in such a way that it is quite tight and hard to further improve with the current card pool. It is very strong the way it is now. Might still make a few changes, though.
One thing I find that's helpful is have 1-2 flex spots where you swap cards in and out for testing between games or play sessions. Sometimes it's even good to pull out cards that obviously make the cut just to make room to try more things. I've found a lot of hidden gems (and a lot of crap) doing this. It really helps speed up the tuning process.
One thing I find that's helpful is have 1-2 flex spots where you swap cards in and out for testing between games or play sessions. Sometimes it's even good to pull out cards that obviously make the cut just to make room to try more things. I've found a lot of hidden gems (and a lot of crap) doing this. It really helps speed up the tuning process.
I mostly said that because we were getting off-topic. As much as I like doing that, it's not always fair to constantly bump a thread with banter.
You're right. I've been looking at Eldrazi Monument but have yet to try it. That's definitely making its way in to testing. I'll post results.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
I'm really glad you and Donald have been working on and updating these Rhys threads as of late. Probably a day before you posted this thread I finally decided "I think Rhys will be my new general." Then out comes these threads
Some cards I'm curious why you guys don't run:
Really anything that gives +1 / +1 x2 to creatures. I know that simply, Elesh Norn and Kamahl are simply better, but why not run more?
Both of you seemed to shy away from any ramp / accel excluding prime time and sol ring. This is a very "X" spell style deck, why not play with more mana? Although I could see tutoring for Wake, Forays, or one of the other huge accel cards being a big play.
Solemn?!
Elspeth Tirel? I know you said that you don't like Planeswalkers, but gain a buttload of life and then blow up all nontoken creatures? Most people generally aren't scared of her. Or can be used as a wrath if you need a reset.
This just doesn't seem very heavy aggro, as in I don't see someone being able to take down an opponent or multiple within the first fifteen turns or so. At that point, I don't see how you can take out other peoples big threats if they fly and you don't get the ideal cards in your hand.
The thing to keep in mind is that this is a toolbox deck so redundancy isn't very important, you just need to put in the best accessible cards that fill a role because there are a lot of tutors available. That said:
Anthems - There are plenty of superior anthems already and it's usually a better use of mana to just make more tokens instead of giving the tokens you have a slight boost unless you're trying to finish people. Then you want anthems that provide a large boost.
Ramp - Primeval Titan is very accessible and there's also Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection and of course Earthcraft. I tried running things like Cultivate in the past but was pretty disappointed with them because it's better to just tutor up a superior piece of ramp.
Solemn Simulacrum - He's just a random good card and doesn't have much synergy with the deck.
Elspeth Tirel - I tried her for awhile and she's OK. Definitely the best walker out there for the deck.
Pretty much what Donald said. All his explanations are ones I agree with. This is indeed a very midrange deck (which just so happens to be my favourite kind of deck to run) and we bide our time in the early game so we can be explosive in the late.
For now, I'm going to drop Darksteel Plate because it was pretty much a place-holder. I'm going to add in Mentor of the Meek for it.
- Darksteel Plate
+ Mentor of the Meek
I'm still planning on trying out the Monument. Just haven't gotten there yet.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Ever consider Nacatl war-pride?. It combos off of rhys quite nicely, and the tokens you create off of a rhys activation do not leave the battlefield at the end of combat. it is obviously not the strongest trick in the world, but if you are also looking for a good laugh I would consider it.
Ever consider Nacatl war-pride?. It combos off of rhys quite nicely, and the tokens you create off of a rhys activation do not leave the battlefield at the end of combat. it is obviously not the strongest trick in the world, but if you are also looking for a good laugh I would consider it.
The War-Pride is a really cool card that I have always wanted to play but I don't think he would be that great in this deck. He fulfills the role of a beater and we pretty much have enough of those as is. You could try him out in your list, though! I could get around to making an "alternate choices" section to the OP sometime maybe.
I checked both your and Donald's Rhys decks and they seem very optimized. I am thinking of building my own starting card for card from your build and maybe tweak one or two cards.
I really like the GW color combination, with my Saffi deck. I was thinking of building something more aggressive and both your decks have all the cards in them I would like to play with.
In your introduction you said that at some point this was a ghave deck. For me it feels like when you play GW, B does not add too much. The Saffi deck I was playing was initially Karador, but B only gave me more tutors and I had already access to enough of those in GW. Anyway, I'll give it a spin and see how it goes.
Just a quick question: is Sylvan tutor worth adding or do you already have enough tutors? is tehre ver anything like "enough" tutors?
Thanks for sharing.
GW is definitely my favourite colour combination so we're in the same camp.
In my intro, I mentioned trying to find the ideal token general and that the search ended with Rhys. I sort of agree that B doesn't add much for us other than the tutors. Ghave is just a combo machine and I didn't enjoy playing him.
You should definitely pick up the deck! Rhys gives us so many options, much like Saffi. Unlike Saffi, we can invest on a more invested strategy: that is, tokens! Playing the control game with patient draws and smart tutoring and eventually overrunning people after having built a massive wall of threats is very satisfying and I'm sure you'll enjoy him if you like the colour combination. Plus, a turn one commander is a beautiful thing.
Sylvan Tutor. I love the card and I've owned one for a long time now but I don't feel as though it deserves a slot in this deck. Although you are right that you can never have enough tutors, Sylvan Tutor causes card disadvantage in that we lose the card only to fix our next draw. The fact that Worldly Tutor can do this at Instant-speed is a huge plus over its Sylvan counterpart.
That being said, I'm still looking for a deck to play Sylvan Tutor in. Or maybe I should just sell it.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Of the card's you're looking to add the only questionable ones I see are Vorinclex and Saffi. Despite being a G/W deck this deck actually prefers effects on enchantments instead of creatures to help maximize the ridiculous beating that is Humility. I actually played Saffi for a long time and eventually cut her for underperforming. She was mostly just a way for me to loop Yosei and lock down the board but Acidic Slime gets the job done just fine without her assistance. Vorinclex is very expensive and easy to kill. Mirari's Wake and Mana Reflection do just fine, are cheaper and more difficult to disrupt and I've even considered cutting Mana Reflection at one point just to free up some space. I know you're a fan of Ouphe Vandals but this deck does not really worry about graveyard hate as much as Saffi so you may want to consider replacing them with something else.
Fecundity - It seems pretty symmetrical but in actual practice you should get much more use out of this than all your opponents combined making it an excellent card drawing engine. I've had it backfire occasionally but those situations are much more rare than Fecundity drawing you tons of cards.
Gaddock Teeg - This deck's Gaddock Teeg is Humility. It doesn't stop Exsanguinate but it does stop anything creature based. You could also try life gain though I don't like devoting spots to pure lifegain. I've run the Soul Wardens in the past and have tried out Jaddi Lifestrider but I found they just didn't do enough on their own.
EDIT: Sylvan Tutor - I don't have any experience with this card but I do have an Imperial Seal on MTGO and it is MUCH worse than Vampiric Tutor. I'd imagine that Sylvan Tutor suffers even more from the sorcery speed because you have to reveal the card you're tutoring for and G/W lacks the raw draw power of black to reliably gain access to the card that turn.
EDIT 2: Also on your cuts I would keep Avenger of Zendikar, Sol Ring and especially Dauntless Escort. That guy is awesome sweeper protection. Avenger is great on his own but in this deck you can do silly things like play him with Doubling Season in play and he makes a lot of tokens when he comes down. Sol Ring is broken of course.
I'd hold off on Joraga Treering right now and stick with the priest if you only have room for one of them.
Regal Force vs. Skullmulcher - My personal preference is to run Skullmulcher as I ran Regal Force for awhile and found him to be very swingy. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for choosing Regal Force for more potential explosiveness.
It feels strange to have a green deck with very little ramp. When I first built the deck years ago I had the regular green ramp package and slowly started cutting the pieces one by one until I was left with only the top quality stuff. You really need to lean on Primeval Titan, Gaea's Cradle, Mirari's Wake and Mana Reflection for your explosive mana needs with a few other notables such as Land Tax and card draw to hit land drops. The other land ramp I used to run was mostly sorcery based and the big problem with it is that you need to devote a lot of spots to consistently be ramping. If you aren't consistently ramping then devoting slots to cards that feed off that ramp (like Genesis Wave) isn't a good idea so it's really all or nothing. I chose nothing as it saves me 12-15 deck slots, and by nothing I mean no strong ramp focus, just running a few extremely powerful ramp cards and some tutors to fetch them because they're good even with the lack of ramp oriented cards like Genesis Wave. I will say I do stumble on land drops sometimes which does suck, you really want to be able to cast Primeval Titan ASAP.
Mikaeus, the Lunarch - The deck currently runs Beastmaster Ascension, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Mirari's Wake and Mirror Entity (hope I didn't miss any, didn't check list) as it's anthems. I feel these 4 are all superior and with the accessibility of these cards through tutors I don't think any other anthems are needed. I do like Mikaeus and someday when I finally build a deck that can run Ranger of Eos I'll probably play him.
Rings of Brighthearth - I have very little experience with the card but I've heard a lot of good things from it. Personally I avoid cards like this as it's mainly a combo piece and I like to keep my comboing to a bare minimum when I can. I don't play Phyrexian Alter/Ashnod's Altar in any of my decks for the same reason. I did play it for a very brief while in Angus but it was very against the spirit of the deck as it raised my threat level too much.
I was quite sceptical when I saw Skullmulcher in Donald's list way back. He seemed like a pretty terrible and situational card. The truth is that this deck is able to turn him into a strong draw spell and a legitimate threat rather well. I would definitely keep Harmonize in too. Card draw is not abundant in GW and it is one of our better ways of generating pure card advantage.
On the ramp, again, I would look to tutoring out Primeval Titan with our various creature tutors as your main ramp "package". It's pretty much all you need, really.
Rings of Brighthearth could be an interesting add. I don't actually know how many activated abilities we use in the deck but you could definitely try it out, especially if you have a variety of fetchlands in the deck.
I see that you listed a variety of changes that you would make in your deck. You could post your list sometime to give us some perspective into what you're trying to do with the deck.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Rings is almost an auto-include in my mind for this deck. Not only can it work for fetches, but for 8 mana and a parallel lives/doubling season in play, you can QUADRUPLE your tokens in a turn.
Other interactions:
Sensei's Divining top: You can draw 2 cards with it (The card on the top and the top itself, a la the voltec key trick.)
Knight of the Reliquary: More ramp
Stoneforge: Play a 2nd equipment
Survival of the fittest: Search up a 2nd creature.
I finally finished putting my Rhys deck together, and I figured I would post my observations after my first playthrough. I was playing against a Jenara, Ashling the Pilgrim, and an Omnath deck. Ashling swong at me two turns in a row early game, and instead of taking the 6 or 7 damage I foolishly blocked with little elves. Then two turns later, I hate two more little elves out and right as I was about to amass a little army Linvala came out. It took another five turns after that for someone to draw a wrath and deal with the board presence.
If I didn't block, I would have had what 8 tokens? I also had an idyllic tutor in hand so I easily could have grabbed a beastmasters ascenscion and swung out for 48 damage. I suppose I should have just eaten the damage early, but I didn't know what to expect. Instead I ended up drawing an Elspeth Knight Errant, and I tutored for a doubling season. I didn't end up playing either card all game (because I felt rude doing that).
Eventually Ashling and her 10 counters ended up blowing up with a stuffy doll targeted on me. Sigh! The game was still close however, I drew and played Kamahl with enough mana to turn five of my lands into big enough dudes and play beastmaster's ascension next turn. Unfortunately Karn came out and exiled him
Was a good game, still getting the hang of the deck but it was a lot of fun. I wish next week wasn't finals week so I could get in some more games.
Ok I am going to work some more on the deck and post the decklist. I had a couple of games last night with the deck and I probably don't know how to play the deck right. I was facing that Kemba, Kha Regent deck that was actually producing more tokens than I did. I guess currently I am more comfortable playing a more controllish type of game I do with Saffi. Anyway. Could you give me some pointers about what the best strategy is for the first turns. I understand that it will never be the same but just so that I get an idea.
Also, what can you do when you lose the control of the game, when for instance your opponents tokens are more and bigger.
Thanks for your help
Were you playing 1v1? That would be tough because this deck is mostly optimized for multiplayer and not 1v1.
Khemba has less of a setup time than we do. She can make tokens faster and more consistently at the beginning of the game. By the mid game, our exponential token making outclasses hers in many ways. Also, because Khemba relies so heavily on equipment and has only one colour, we can play much more high-quality card than she can.
Firstly, Khemba needs to play a lot of equipment. If you play against the deck often, I would consider adding Aura of Silence or Molder Slug to really put a dent in her armour (see what I did there!). Incapacitating Khemba or killing her equipment are imperative to beating her in 1v1.
I mentioned that my list is more answer-heavy than Donald's list. This is because I like to have control over what stays on the board. If this is 1v1, I would suggest even more spot removal and possibly more wraths to control the early game against more explosive generals.
@nurse.jason and Pookelyduke: Yes, the deck is not the easiest to play. It takes time to really find out the ins and outs of the deck but the main idea is this: play proactively but without overextending. Rhys should be played in the first 2 turns. Rhys should make a dude on the third turn. Then incrementally make guys unless something needs answering or your strategy gets disrupted. Remember, pure card draw is not abundant in GW so we use virtual card advantage to stabilize in the early game. In the mid to late, that's when we start getting explosive and moving from control to a slightly more aggro approach. As an aside, I guess I could add this brief information to the OP as a resource for new players trying to pick up Rhys.
@Tanarin: Rings does indeed sound like fun in that context.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Rhys is actually quite strong in 1v1 but a list that is built for multiplayer probably won't play as well as it should. As I said, more spot removal and Wraths would help against the Khemba matchup.
Yeah, my list has been fairly tuned as I've played a lot of GW over the years since it's my favourite colour combination. It's pretty tight as is, but I'd still like to see your take on the deck. You should definitely post a list sometime!
On a side note, I updated the OP with reasons as to why you would want to play this deck and a brief "how to play" section.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Turtle I know you run or used to run perilous forays in yOur list. Do you still? I picked it up and have it in my list but it seems expensive for what it does. Just curious!
@nurse.jason: I definitely agree that Perilous Forays is expensive but when it gets going, it's invaluable. It is still on the list but I'm keeping an eye on it myself. I say you should at least test in your list to see how it goes works with your playstyle.
@Tinno: Nice list! I'm also sort of curious about how the planeswalkers are working out for you. And welcome to the thread!
@Pookelyduke: Interesting changes. I like that you're taking the deck in your own direction and adding cards according to your playstyle. But I see you're still having trouble with the deck.
On the cards you removed:
Avenger of Zendikar is really quite good, especially with the addition of Natural Order. I've been thinking about adding that card for a while now. Be sure to tell of your experiences with it!
Harmonize is simple but effective. I'm usually quite happy to see it but if you play conservatively, you shouldn't need it all that often.
Triumph of the Hordes, I need to get rid of. It doesn't contribute to damage we do throughout the game and we need a bunch of creatures just to take one guy out of the game. I never liked these one-shot effects anyway and I'm definitely going to take this out in the next update.
Sprout Swarm varies in its mileage. Sometimes I shake my head when I see it, and other times it shines. I find that the times it shines I'm usually winning the game anyway, so I may just remove this as well.
Perilous Forays. I really like this card. I hate the mana cost but the effect is absolutely ridiculous. I'll keep an eye out on how often the mana cost is a problem but I find it to be a really strong card in tokens.
Sensei's Divining Top is really good, but I can understand not including it. I've thought many times of taking it out of my lists, especially ones with Sylvan Library already in.
Spawning Pit is a really good sac outlet and sometimes you just need sac outlets. It's pretty crazy with Doubling Season.
Oblivion Stone should be probably be added back in if you're having trouble controlling the board with this deck. It's a good rattlesnake for bad situations.
On the cards you added:
Yavimaya Elder is good but slow. I've had mixed experiences with him in the past. If you look at him as 3GG Draw a card, get 2 basics in hand, he's not that great.
Archon of Justice is tough to play without sac outlets. You want to be able to control when this guy blows up otherwise he just ends up being a fat guy. Slow like the Elder
Sylvan Tutor is far too slow. You should try and see how often the card disadvantage hurts you. I've had trouble keeping Worldly Tutor in some of my lists recently and I can't see myself playing this except in a deck that absolutely NEEDS that creature ASAP (Hermit Druid Combo).
Natural Order is a very good card, especially in a list full of tokens and fodder. I would like to hear your experiences on it.
Idyllic Tutor: Good card. I actually have it in the list :p. Yeah, I just realized this now.
Mana Reflection: Good card. I usually find that Mirari's Wake is enough for our strategy but another doubler never hurts. A little high on the mana cost though.
Phyrexian Altar: Reasonably good sac outlet. I'm not sure if I like this more than Spawning Pit in this deck.
Scroll Rack is a good card. You'll want to include Land Tax in the deck if you keep this in. Cute little combo.
EDIT: Rough night again yesterday. I really don't know how to play the deck. I think my problem is that I am falling back on the control plan too quickly because of how I play Saffi and thus cannot get a big threat going. I am thinking of lightening the enchantment package somewhat so that I can play some more boardwipes like Akroma's Vengeance and Oblivion Stone. I am going to keep playing until I get that feel for the deck.....
Could you describe some of the problems you're having with the deck? Are you losing to aggro, control, or combo? What is your usual play sequence with Rhys especially? Do you play a lot of early creatures or tutor a lot early game? How do you play Saffi and what makes her so different? Factors like this will help me understand the problems your having and help me address them to a greater extent.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Pookelyduke - This actually isn't a very aggressive deck, at least the way I've got mine set up. I'd say my list is even more controllish than your Saffi list. If you are wanting to be more aggressive with the deck I strongly recommend adding in more swords, cutting some of the controlling enchantments and moving the deck away from a toolbox style build in favor of more stand alone threats like Elspeth, Knight Errant. I don't feel like that is the best route to take the deck though.
Harmonize - I agree with your card assessments on all cards but this one Drama. I found this not to be worth a slot because it's better to tutor up a superior piece of card drawing. For example you can draw 4 cards off of Steelshaper's Gift for 3 mana and even Sylvan Tutor, crappy though it may be, can fetch a creature that can draw you far more cards than Harmonize. These cards also have far more utility when you don't need to draw cards.
Pookelyduke - This actually isn't a very aggressive deck, at least the way I've got mine set up. I'd say my list is even more controllish than your Saffi list. If you are wanting to be more aggressive with the deck I strongly recommend adding in more swords, cutting some of the controlling enchantments and moving the deck away from a toolbox style build in favor of more stand alone threats like Elspeth, Knight Errant. I don't feel like that is the best route to take the deck though.
Harmonize - I agree with your card assessments on all cards but this one Drama. I found this not to be worth a slot because it's better to tutor up a superior piece of card drawing. For example you can draw 4 cards off of Steelshaper's Gift for 3 mana and even Sylvan Tutor, crappy though it may be, can fetch a creature that can draw you far more cards than Harmonize. These cards also have far more utility when you don't need to draw cards.
I imagine you are referring to tutoring skullclamp with Steelshaper's. Here's my issue with that;
Harmonize requires: 4 mana and no counter
Steelshaper into Skullclamp requires: 4 mana
no counter on gift, or clamp
no responses to equip, i.e. destroy equip.
two creatures on the field that are */1
The death of two creatures, that could be beating face.
Since skullclamp can and has won games simply on how powerful it is, I could easily see someone countering or destroying it if the opportunity presents itself. Whereas Harmonize is a one time deal, and as such people won't mess with it. I 100% disagree with your opinion here in that taking out harmonize for Steelshaper's is the right idea. While I agree that skullclamp is the better card of the two, it's much more likely to be responded to and destroyed.
I wasn't suggesting that Harmonize be replaced by Steelshaper's Gift more that Steelshaper's Gift is probably better than Harmonize and it's not good enough so clearly harmonize is not good enough.
This actually isn't a token beatdown deck so saccing your tokens is fine. It's a toolbox deck that happens to have a lot of token elements. It sort of breaks down as follows:
Main theme: Toolbox
Subtheme 1: Tokens
Subtheme 2: Enchantments
You usually aren't winning games through random token beats (at least I'm not). You play out cards that force sweepers, sit behind enchantments and then have an explosive turn where you kill 1 or more players or outright win the game. The tokens are in the deck primarily to be abused through saccing though they have other uses like Convoke and Earthcraft. They just happen to also be an effective way to win later in the game when you have access to either an infinite token combo or a lot of mana for Overrun effects or lots of token generation.
I suppose this is where our decks differ. While I agree that it does have the potentiality to "toolbox" considering the deck is either a dude or something that tutors for the dude that you want (sometimes both). However my playgroup really frowns upon infinite combo, so the token creation and overrun is my primary win condition. I.E. token beatdown.
I got a couple of games in last night. I did manage to win a couple of games. It felt really good to attack with 22 4/4 (wake with elesh norn from a hideaway land) :). In another game I swung for lethal in one swing thanks to Beastmaster ascension. Also I pulled of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. What a blowout that was....
Great night!
There are a couple of lessons learned, mainly from the losses Yavimaya Elder is way to slow for this deck. Everytime I had him in hand I had something else to do. He's out.
At some point I needed my tokens as defensive wall in which case Skullmulcher did not do so well. I am switching him for Regal Force which does basically the same thing but I get to keep my dudes.
At no moment in the games did I want to play Concordant Crossroads nor Fecundity. I'll cut them for now and I might come back to them if I feel a need. Knight of Reliquary is fantastic. I am adding a Petrified Field so that I can get back a wastlanded Gaea's cradle or something along those lines.
Also Natural Order did pretty well. I was in the situation that I wanted maybe Avenger of Zendikar but I got Primeval titan instead. As a natural order target I am adding Vorinclex. The idea is that with the mana he's generating, I can make almost as many dudes as avenger would produce.
I still like Sylvan Tutor even with the card disadvantage. I was able to tutor for Elesh norn, grand cenobite to seal the deal. There are still a couple of thing I want to try. For instance I want to see if Birthing Pod is worth playing. That might mean an adjustment in the creatures so that there are no holes in the podding chain. It might be too much of an investment. I'll check it out though.
Also I want to be able to add Oblivion Stone and Akroma's Vengeance. It might not be very good together with all the enchantments we are playing but it is a good reset. Akroma's memorial and Eldrazi monument have probably been mentioned already. especially memorial seems appealing because of haste. It would give an alternative to crossroads which is not symmetrical. Even it is much more expensive to play it might be good. Currently I will only make the changes I gave before so that I can test the cards by themselves more.
Maybe playing Karn liberated can help as well to take care of permanents. All the G and W planeswalkers would be a good fit I think. I will see if I can add them somewhere.
I love Karn, but I feel that G / W gives access to pretty much every removal spell one could need aside from land D. But even then there's a few cards like Acidic Slime. The only thing I guess that GW doesn't have is the exile a card from your hand type of thing, which is great except I always find Karn paints a big target on your head. "OH HE'S GONNA RESET THE GAME KILL KARN THEN KILL THAT GUY!" Even if you have no intentions of using his ultimate. I ran through the ideas of using Ajani, Elspeth's, Garruk's, Gideon, etc.
My thoughts:
I run both Elspeth's in my decklist. I think they're decent token makers, and they couple well with doubling season.
Ajani feels slow and clunky.
Garruk Primal Hunter feels really good for his ability to give card draw, the one with overrun felt too slow when you could tutor for Kamahl. However, Primal Hunter is still $$ and you could tutor for one of several creatures that do the same thing as his only "good" ability. So I passed on these.
Gideon and the rest of the party just didn't seem to fit the bill with the theme of the deck. (IMO)
Please keep in mind that I have not have a lot of games in yet (an amazing 2) with the deck and as such, I have not a good game plan YET. I am working on it. Also instead of playing Multi like I should, I'm playing 1v1. Give me some more time I'll make it work
Anyway, to answer your questions. I have lost to that Khemba aggro deck and to an Oona heavy artifact combo deck. However in both those games I really felt helpless, as I did not really know what to go for. I tried the aura shards plan but All is dust took care of that. In both games I play Rhys T1 so that I can make a token by T3, but it is not enough. In both games I felt like I lost the speed advantage. Khemba because early on my opponent made more and bigger tokens and Oona just pumped out an insane amount of artifact mana. I am going to try and get a couple more games in this friday and I'll let you know. I think until then, no need to think too much about what I'm doing wrong. I think with 2 games, that is not enough to know what to do and I need to learn. To come back to what Donald says, for now I'll keep the control elements in and continue playing. I'll move to a more aggressive build if I can't make it and I'll keep my Saffi controllish.
Thanks a lot for helping me out!
Wow. Let me get this straight.
You took on a Khemba weenie-equip deck and an Oona combo deck in 1v1 with a multiplayer-tuned Rhys list? Now that's what I call gutsy!
Seriously, it seems as though there was no way you could have won those matches so don't let those losses discourage you (if you want to discuss 1v1 Rhys, I'm open to that too ;)) Anyway, I'm glad things seem to be picking up for you. You seem to be getting a grasp of how the deck works.
I'm just going to mention the changes that I agree with briefly.
Yavimaya Elder: I agree that he is very slow. He's so slow it's almost ridiculous. I like the card advantage he provides but I would definitely be on board for cutting him.
Concordant Crossroads: Definitely going to agree with you here. It's a good effect but it's asymmetric and we never get when we need it. Drawing it after a Wrath can bring the most optimistic player down. Definitely on the chopping block.
The other cards... I'm not so sure about. I don't particularly care for the Flagstone of Trokair but Fecundity has generally been good for me and I do think it's worth keeping in the deck.
Anyway, let us know how your changes go. I'm going to be updating the deck soon as I have a bunch of ideas I want to work with. I know that I keep saying that I will but I really will this time. Really!
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But I agree when looking at a mono G tribal list there probably wouldnt be as many things to work out... Still it would be fun and something a bit out of the norm for building.
EDIT: It would be such a fun G Wave sort of deck though...
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For sure!
Our failed Azami project makes me think that we need to be more careful about another such projects, though. But yes, he does sound like fun. Sanity, I'm sure you can find ways to help as well!
The thing about this Rhys deck is that I feel as though I'm quite experienced in most token options already, so I built the list in such a way that it is quite tight and hard to further improve with the current card pool. It is very strong the way it is now. Might still make a few changes, though.
One thing I find that's helpful is have 1-2 flex spots where you swap cards in and out for testing between games or play sessions. Sometimes it's even good to pull out cards that obviously make the cut just to make room to try more things. I've found a lot of hidden gems (and a lot of crap) doing this. It really helps speed up the tuning process.
I mostly said that because we were getting off-topic. As much as I like doing that, it's not always fair to constantly bump a thread with banter.
You're right. I've been looking at Eldrazi Monument but have yet to try it. That's definitely making its way in to testing. I'll post results.
EDIT: And Mentor of the Meek. Must fit that in.
Some cards I'm curious why you guys don't run:
Really anything that gives +1 / +1 x2 to creatures. I know that simply, Elesh Norn and Kamahl are simply better, but why not run more?
The Eldrazzi Monument discussion seems to be taking place now.
Both of you seemed to shy away from any ramp / accel excluding prime time and sol ring. This is a very "X" spell style deck, why not play with more mana? Although I could see tutoring for Wake, Forays, or one of the other huge accel cards being a big play.
Solemn?!
Elspeth Tirel? I know you said that you don't like Planeswalkers, but gain a buttload of life and then blow up all nontoken creatures? Most people generally aren't scared of her. Or can be used as a wrath if you need a reset.
I don't see either of your decks being able to combat flyers whatsoever, as all you have is revilliark. Therefore; Hurricane, Hour of Reckoning, Ghostly Prison, Martial Coup as just some resets.
This just doesn't seem very heavy aggro, as in I don't see someone being able to take down an opponent or multiple within the first fifteen turns or so. At that point, I don't see how you can take out other peoples big threats if they fly and you don't get the ideal cards in your hand.
Oh, and one of my favorite cards Hero of Bladehold! Why no love?!
Anthems - There are plenty of superior anthems already and it's usually a better use of mana to just make more tokens instead of giving the tokens you have a slight boost unless you're trying to finish people. Then you want anthems that provide a large boost.
Ramp - Primeval Titan is very accessible and there's also Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection and of course Earthcraft. I tried running things like Cultivate in the past but was pretty disappointed with them because it's better to just tutor up a superior piece of ramp.
Solemn Simulacrum - He's just a random good card and doesn't have much synergy with the deck.
Elspeth Tirel - I tried her for awhile and she's OK. Definitely the best walker out there for the deck.
Fliers - Going through my list I've got quite a bit of anti-flier cards. Many are situational but Reveillark + Karmic Guide, Elesh Norn, Luminarch Ascension, Sacred Mesa, Martyr's Cause, Humility, Parallax Wave, Martyr's Bond, Oblivion Stone, Austere Command, Kor Haven and Stirring Wildwood all help out against fliers along with a large number of tutors if necessary. Fliers really aren't an issue for me.
The deck is more like a midrange deck than an aggro deck. You just try to set up your engines and then go for an explosive turn to kill people.
For now, I'm going to drop Darksteel Plate because it was pretty much a place-holder. I'm going to add in Mentor of the Meek for it.
- Darksteel Plate
+ Mentor of the Meek
I'm still planning on trying out the Monument. Just haven't gotten there yet.
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The War-Pride is a really cool card that I have always wanted to play but I don't think he would be that great in this deck. He fulfills the role of a beater and we pretty much have enough of those as is. You could try him out in your list, though! I could get around to making an "alternate choices" section to the OP sometime maybe.
GW is definitely my favourite colour combination so we're in the same camp.
In my intro, I mentioned trying to find the ideal token general and that the search ended with Rhys. I sort of agree that B doesn't add much for us other than the tutors. Ghave is just a combo machine and I didn't enjoy playing him.
You should definitely pick up the deck! Rhys gives us so many options, much like Saffi. Unlike Saffi, we can invest on a more invested strategy: that is, tokens! Playing the control game with patient draws and smart tutoring and eventually overrunning people after having built a massive wall of threats is very satisfying and I'm sure you'll enjoy him if you like the colour combination. Plus, a turn one commander is a beautiful thing.
Sylvan Tutor. I love the card and I've owned one for a long time now but I don't feel as though it deserves a slot in this deck. Although you are right that you can never have enough tutors, Sylvan Tutor causes card disadvantage in that we lose the card only to fix our next draw. The fact that Worldly Tutor can do this at Instant-speed is a huge plus over its Sylvan counterpart.
That being said, I'm still looking for a deck to play Sylvan Tutor in. Or maybe I should just sell it.
Fecundity - It seems pretty symmetrical but in actual practice you should get much more use out of this than all your opponents combined making it an excellent card drawing engine. I've had it backfire occasionally but those situations are much more rare than Fecundity drawing you tons of cards.
Gaddock Teeg - This deck's Gaddock Teeg is Humility. It doesn't stop Exsanguinate but it does stop anything creature based. You could also try life gain though I don't like devoting spots to pure lifegain. I've run the Soul Wardens in the past and have tried out Jaddi Lifestrider but I found they just didn't do enough on their own.
EDIT: Sylvan Tutor - I don't have any experience with this card but I do have an Imperial Seal on MTGO and it is MUCH worse than Vampiric Tutor. I'd imagine that Sylvan Tutor suffers even more from the sorcery speed because you have to reveal the card you're tutoring for and G/W lacks the raw draw power of black to reliably gain access to the card that turn.
EDIT 2: Also on your cuts I would keep Avenger of Zendikar, Sol Ring and especially Dauntless Escort. That guy is awesome sweeper protection. Avenger is great on his own but in this deck you can do silly things like play him with Doubling Season in play and he makes a lot of tokens when he comes down. Sol Ring is broken of course.
Regal Force vs. Skullmulcher - My personal preference is to run Skullmulcher as I ran Regal Force for awhile and found him to be very swingy. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for choosing Regal Force for more potential explosiveness.
It feels strange to have a green deck with very little ramp. When I first built the deck years ago I had the regular green ramp package and slowly started cutting the pieces one by one until I was left with only the top quality stuff. You really need to lean on Primeval Titan, Gaea's Cradle, Mirari's Wake and Mana Reflection for your explosive mana needs with a few other notables such as Land Tax and card draw to hit land drops. The other land ramp I used to run was mostly sorcery based and the big problem with it is that you need to devote a lot of spots to consistently be ramping. If you aren't consistently ramping then devoting slots to cards that feed off that ramp (like Genesis Wave) isn't a good idea so it's really all or nothing. I chose nothing as it saves me 12-15 deck slots, and by nothing I mean no strong ramp focus, just running a few extremely powerful ramp cards and some tutors to fetch them because they're good even with the lack of ramp oriented cards like Genesis Wave. I will say I do stumble on land drops sometimes which does suck, you really want to be able to cast Primeval Titan ASAP.
Mikaeus, the Lunarch - The deck currently runs Beastmaster Ascension, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Mirari's Wake and Mirror Entity (hope I didn't miss any, didn't check list) as it's anthems. I feel these 4 are all superior and with the accessibility of these cards through tutors I don't think any other anthems are needed. I do like Mikaeus and someday when I finally build a deck that can run Ranger of Eos I'll probably play him.
Rings of Brighthearth - I have very little experience with the card but I've heard a lot of good things from it. Personally I avoid cards like this as it's mainly a combo piece and I like to keep my comboing to a bare minimum when I can. I don't play Phyrexian Alter/Ashnod's Altar in any of my decks for the same reason. I did play it for a very brief while in Angus but it was very against the spirit of the deck as it raised my threat level too much.
I was quite sceptical when I saw Skullmulcher in Donald's list way back. He seemed like a pretty terrible and situational card. The truth is that this deck is able to turn him into a strong draw spell and a legitimate threat rather well. I would definitely keep Harmonize in too. Card draw is not abundant in GW and it is one of our better ways of generating pure card advantage.
On the ramp, again, I would look to tutoring out Primeval Titan with our various creature tutors as your main ramp "package". It's pretty much all you need, really.
Rings of Brighthearth could be an interesting add. I don't actually know how many activated abilities we use in the deck but you could definitely try it out, especially if you have a variety of fetchlands in the deck.
I see that you listed a variety of changes that you would make in your deck. You could post your list sometime to give us some perspective into what you're trying to do with the deck.
Other interactions:
Sensei's Divining top: You can draw 2 cards with it (The card on the top and the top itself, a la the voltec key trick.)
Knight of the Reliquary: More ramp
Stoneforge: Play a 2nd equipment
Survival of the fittest: Search up a 2nd creature.
And that just scratches the surface.
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If I didn't block, I would have had what 8 tokens? I also had an idyllic tutor in hand so I easily could have grabbed a beastmasters ascenscion and swung out for 48 damage. I suppose I should have just eaten the damage early, but I didn't know what to expect. Instead I ended up drawing an Elspeth Knight Errant, and I tutored for a doubling season. I didn't end up playing either card all game (because I felt rude doing that).
Eventually Ashling and her 10 counters ended up blowing up with a stuffy doll targeted on me. Sigh! The game was still close however, I drew and played Kamahl with enough mana to turn five of my lands into big enough dudes and play beastmaster's ascension next turn. Unfortunately Karn came out and exiled him
Was a good game, still getting the hang of the deck but it was a lot of fun. I wish next week wasn't finals week so I could get in some more games.
Were you playing 1v1? That would be tough because this deck is mostly optimized for multiplayer and not 1v1.
Khemba has less of a setup time than we do. She can make tokens faster and more consistently at the beginning of the game. By the mid game, our exponential token making outclasses hers in many ways. Also, because Khemba relies so heavily on equipment and has only one colour, we can play much more high-quality card than she can.
Firstly, Khemba needs to play a lot of equipment. If you play against the deck often, I would consider adding Aura of Silence or Molder Slug to really put a dent in her armour (see what I did there!). Incapacitating Khemba or killing her equipment are imperative to beating her in 1v1.
I mentioned that my list is more answer-heavy than Donald's list. This is because I like to have control over what stays on the board. If this is 1v1, I would suggest even more spot removal and possibly more wraths to control the early game against more explosive generals.
@nurse.jason and Pookelyduke: Yes, the deck is not the easiest to play. It takes time to really find out the ins and outs of the deck but the main idea is this: play proactively but without overextending. Rhys should be played in the first 2 turns. Rhys should make a dude on the third turn. Then incrementally make guys unless something needs answering or your strategy gets disrupted. Remember, pure card draw is not abundant in GW so we use virtual card advantage to stabilize in the early game. In the mid to late, that's when we start getting explosive and moving from control to a slightly more aggro approach. As an aside, I guess I could add this brief information to the OP as a resource for new players trying to pick up Rhys.
@Tanarin: Rings does indeed sound like fun in that context.
Yeah, my list has been fairly tuned as I've played a lot of GW over the years since it's my favourite colour combination. It's pretty tight as is, but I'd still like to see your take on the deck. You should definitely post a list sometime!
On a side note, I updated the OP with reasons as to why you would want to play this deck and a brief "how to play" section.
@Tinno: Nice list! I'm also sort of curious about how the planeswalkers are working out for you. And welcome to the thread!
@Pookelyduke: Interesting changes. I like that you're taking the deck in your own direction and adding cards according to your playstyle. But I see you're still having trouble with the deck.
On the cards you removed:
Avenger of Zendikar is really quite good, especially with the addition of Natural Order. I've been thinking about adding that card for a while now. Be sure to tell of your experiences with it!
Harmonize is simple but effective. I'm usually quite happy to see it but if you play conservatively, you shouldn't need it all that often.
Triumph of the Hordes, I need to get rid of. It doesn't contribute to damage we do throughout the game and we need a bunch of creatures just to take one guy out of the game. I never liked these one-shot effects anyway and I'm definitely going to take this out in the next update.
Sprout Swarm varies in its mileage. Sometimes I shake my head when I see it, and other times it shines. I find that the times it shines I'm usually winning the game anyway, so I may just remove this as well.
Perilous Forays. I really like this card. I hate the mana cost but the effect is absolutely ridiculous. I'll keep an eye out on how often the mana cost is a problem but I find it to be a really strong card in tokens.
Sensei's Divining Top is really good, but I can understand not including it. I've thought many times of taking it out of my lists, especially ones with Sylvan Library already in.
Spawning Pit is a really good sac outlet and sometimes you just need sac outlets. It's pretty crazy with Doubling Season.
Oblivion Stone should be probably be added back in if you're having trouble controlling the board with this deck. It's a good rattlesnake for bad situations.
On the cards you added:
Yavimaya Elder is good but slow. I've had mixed experiences with him in the past. If you look at him as 3GG Draw a card, get 2 basics in hand, he's not that great.
Archon of Justice is tough to play without sac outlets. You want to be able to control when this guy blows up otherwise he just ends up being a fat guy. Slow like the Elder
Sylvan Tutor is far too slow. You should try and see how often the card disadvantage hurts you. I've had trouble keeping Worldly Tutor in some of my lists recently and I can't see myself playing this except in a deck that absolutely NEEDS that creature ASAP (Hermit Druid Combo).
Natural Order is a very good card, especially in a list full of tokens and fodder. I would like to hear your experiences on it.
Idyllic Tutor: Good card. I actually have it in the list :p. Yeah, I just realized this now.
Mana Reflection: Good card. I usually find that Mirari's Wake is enough for our strategy but another doubler never hurts. A little high on the mana cost though.
Phyrexian Altar: Reasonably good sac outlet. I'm not sure if I like this more than Spawning Pit in this deck.
Scroll Rack is a good card. You'll want to include Land Tax in the deck if you keep this in. Cute little combo.
Could you describe some of the problems you're having with the deck? Are you losing to aggro, control, or combo? What is your usual play sequence with Rhys especially? Do you play a lot of early creatures or tutor a lot early game? How do you play Saffi and what makes her so different? Factors like this will help me understand the problems your having and help me address them to a greater extent.
Harmonize - I agree with your card assessments on all cards but this one Drama. I found this not to be worth a slot because it's better to tutor up a superior piece of card drawing. For example you can draw 4 cards off of Steelshaper's Gift for 3 mana and even Sylvan Tutor, crappy though it may be, can fetch a creature that can draw you far more cards than Harmonize. These cards also have far more utility when you don't need to draw cards.
I imagine you are referring to tutoring skullclamp with Steelshaper's. Here's my issue with that;
Harmonize requires: 4 mana and no counter
Steelshaper into Skullclamp requires: 4 mana
no counter on gift, or clamp
no responses to equip, i.e. destroy equip.
two creatures on the field that are */1
The death of two creatures, that could be beating face.
Since skullclamp can and has won games simply on how powerful it is, I could easily see someone countering or destroying it if the opportunity presents itself. Whereas Harmonize is a one time deal, and as such people won't mess with it. I 100% disagree with your opinion here in that taking out harmonize for Steelshaper's is the right idea. While I agree that skullclamp is the better card of the two, it's much more likely to be responded to and destroyed.
This actually isn't a token beatdown deck so saccing your tokens is fine. It's a toolbox deck that happens to have a lot of token elements. It sort of breaks down as follows:
Main theme: Toolbox
Subtheme 1: Tokens
Subtheme 2: Enchantments
You usually aren't winning games through random token beats (at least I'm not). You play out cards that force sweepers, sit behind enchantments and then have an explosive turn where you kill 1 or more players or outright win the game. The tokens are in the deck primarily to be abused through saccing though they have other uses like Convoke and Earthcraft. They just happen to also be an effective way to win later in the game when you have access to either an infinite token combo or a lot of mana for Overrun effects or lots of token generation.
I love Karn, but I feel that G / W gives access to pretty much every removal spell one could need aside from land D. But even then there's a few cards like Acidic Slime. The only thing I guess that GW doesn't have is the exile a card from your hand type of thing, which is great except I always find Karn paints a big target on your head. "OH HE'S GONNA RESET THE GAME KILL KARN THEN KILL THAT GUY!" Even if you have no intentions of using his ultimate. I ran through the ideas of using Ajani, Elspeth's, Garruk's, Gideon, etc.
My thoughts:
I run both Elspeth's in my decklist. I think they're decent token makers, and they couple well with doubling season.
Ajani feels slow and clunky.
Garruk Primal Hunter feels really good for his ability to give card draw, the one with overrun felt too slow when you could tutor for Kamahl. However, Primal Hunter is still $$ and you could tutor for one of several creatures that do the same thing as his only "good" ability. So I passed on these.
Gideon and the rest of the party just didn't seem to fit the bill with the theme of the deck. (IMO)
Wow. Let me get this straight.
You took on a Khemba weenie-equip deck and an Oona combo deck in 1v1 with a multiplayer-tuned Rhys list? Now that's what I call gutsy!
Seriously, it seems as though there was no way you could have won those matches so don't let those losses discourage you (if you want to discuss 1v1 Rhys, I'm open to that too ;)) Anyway, I'm glad things seem to be picking up for you. You seem to be getting a grasp of how the deck works.
I'm just going to mention the changes that I agree with briefly.
Yavimaya Elder: I agree that he is very slow. He's so slow it's almost ridiculous. I like the card advantage he provides but I would definitely be on board for cutting him.
Concordant Crossroads: Definitely going to agree with you here. It's a good effect but it's asymmetric and we never get when we need it. Drawing it after a Wrath can bring the most optimistic player down. Definitely on the chopping block.
The other cards... I'm not so sure about. I don't particularly care for the Flagstone of Trokair but Fecundity has generally been good for me and I do think it's worth keeping in the deck.
Anyway, let us know how your changes go. I'm going to be updating the deck soon as I have a bunch of ideas I want to work with. I know that I keep saying that I will but I really will this time. Really!