2. Sylvok Explorer -- This is okay, but it isn't an elf, which totally sucks at times. Birds of Paradise isn't an elf either, but Birds is a lot better at what it does. Channelers has been good to me so far, but I can see it getting cut for something more reliable in the future.
3. Presence of Gond -- If you're going for a "build with what you have" approach (that's what I'm doing IRL, too), then go for it. However, in an "optimized" build, I don't think we really need any help going infinite with Intruder Alarm. I'm trying to keep the purely non-elf combo cards to a minimum because they can lead to some awkward draws.
Quote from hinzr »
Sword of the Paruns is like another Umbral Mantle with the bonus of boosting your creatures.
Same as #3 above. It can be really awkward to draw into Umbral Mantle without a "big tapper" readily available, and once we start going off, Umbral Mantle is fetchable with Momir Vig via Drift of Phantasms. I think Sword of the Paruns falls into the same category as stuff like Aluren and Presence of Gond -- just not really needed to win.
Quote from (nameless one) »
I might be missing anything but can you list all the win combos the deck can do?
I can try! Here are all the interactions noteworthy enough to be called combos:
Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel + Lys Alana Huntmaster -- one of the primary mana engines. By the time you get all three active, you should be able to generate enough mana to go for the win very quickly.
Sages of the Anima + Glimpse of Nature/Tidespout Tyrant -- This only comes up once in a blue moon, but it does a decent impression of the Momir Vig engine. Instead of tutoring, however, each creature draws you about 1.4 more creatures.
Intruder Alarm + Skyshroud Poacher/Lys Alana Huntmaster/various other combinations of creatures -- lets you easily grab infinite or very large amounts of mana. Poacher also lets you tutor out every creature in your deck.
I hope that sums it up for you. The wincons themselves usually include Tidespout Tyrant or Umbral Mantle or lots of hasty critters.
Having no haste effect in play and hacking Momir Vig on turn 4-5 and getting Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel and building up mana to cast Lys Alana Huntmaster.
Continue to build up mana until I can drop Orochi Leafcaller, Transmuting Drift of Phantasms into Cloudstone Curio. At that point I can finally go infinite on mana. Then I continue to play and bounce stuff to build up a huge token count until the number of green creatures is almost equal to the number of cards left in my library before casting Regal Force to draw the rest of the deck.
At that point, I drop Concordant Crossroads and Umbral Mantle and all the rest of the creatures, bouncing all of my opponent's stuff with Tidespout Tyrant. Then Use the infinite mana to make an Infinite army of Infinite size and swing for the win.
This deck is really amazing in that it can go from an innocent mana-ramping start (are those EVER innocent?) into playing the entire deck on turn five and beating an entire table into submission.
However, the combos are fragile enough and complicated enough that opponents may force you to play out the turn instead of scooping. If that happens, it can take 30-45 mins to play out your winning turn.
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Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
This looks like a really solid list! It's something I've been meaning to do, but never really got around to. It's definitely a lot more interesting than the U/G Goodstuff Vig lists, and a lot more resilient than the Ezuri elf-ball decks.
Here's a couple of gems that might be missing:
Explore seems pretty good mid-combo for when you've drawn your Gaea's Cradle. It also makes the next suggestion a little better.
Dryad Arbor adds a ton of utility in the context of Cloudstone Curio, since it effectively bounces your guy for free.
Mobilize is another copy of Vitalize if you're looking for it.
Skullclamp? I assume there's a reason this isn't in here, but it seems like you might be able to reduce the reliance on Vig a little more by throwing it in. Plus more utility with Dryad Arbor.
Natural Order? Turns a mana elf that's been used into a Regal Force or Primordial Sage? Chord of Calling and the new Green Suns' Zenith would accomplish something similar, if that's the kind of effect you're looking for.
[QUOTE=Gavvin;/comments/4893717]This deck is really amazing in that it can go from an innocent mana-ramping start (are those EVER innocent?) into playing the entire deck on turn five and beating an entire table into submission.[QUOTE]
it so true. when i first brought this deck to the edh table. i already had a vig deck. so everyone assumed that's what i was playing again. so when i started to play little mana dorks, everyone just thought that i was having bad draws.
boy did they learn their lesson quick.... well it really took about 40 minutes for them to learn (my group will make me play it out, EVERY time).
I mention these because I have run into each of them in decks in our (fairly large) play group.
The problem I have been having with this deck is that it is completely non-interactive. It doesn't care what opponents are doing, it just focuses on comboing out. This is great until one or more opponents start dropping little obstacles like the ones above.
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Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
Explore seems pretty good mid-combo for when you've drawn your Gaea's Cradle. It also makes the next suggestion a little better.
Dryad Arbor adds a ton of utility in the context of Cloudstone Curio, since it effectively bounces your guy for free.
Mobilize is another copy of Vitalize if you're looking for it.
Skullclamp? I assume there's a reason this isn't in here, but it seems like you might be able to reduce the reliance on Vig a little more by throwing it in. Plus more utility with Dryad Arbor.
Natural Order? Turns a mana elf that's been used into a Regal Force or Primordial Sage? Chord of Calling and the new Green Suns' Zenith would accomplish something similar, if that's the kind of effect you're looking for.
Explore doesn't really do anything for me for two reasons:
1. Pre-combo, our land count is too low for it to be reliably useful;
2. Once I start comboing off, I can do just fine without Gaea's Cradle.
For similar reasons, Oracle of Mul Daya and Mul Daya Channelers are on the watch list for getting cut from the deck.
Dryad Arbor might be tech. My Teeg deck makes good use out of it. The fact it "comes into play tapped" might be a hindrance, but pumping up Gaea's Cradle is nice.
Mobilize -- now that's a card I can love. Vitalize is always at least a Dark Ritual in this deck (usually better), and I'm always happy to draw it. Thanks for this one!
I'm not really sure why I haven't tested Skullclamp yet. Seems good.
Natural Order -- Wow, this kind of effect opens up a lot of possibilities. I mean, sure, we can use it to further the standard Vig plan, but does anyone know any stupid combo or arbitrary wincon we can tutor out with this bad boy?
For those interested, Timetwister has been grand. Sometimes I don't need it (then it didn't matter what was in that slot, anyway), but more often than not it's just huge.
Quote from Gavvin »
Cards this deck just loses to if they hit before you combo out:
Some of the cards you mentioned can be circumvented rather easily, but it will cost you a turn (and sometimes a card). Goblin Sharpshooter and Aether Flash is turned off by some combination of Elvish Archdruid and Joraga Warcaller. Frozen Aether, Loxodon Gatekeeper, and Tainted Aether are shut down by an EOT Venser, Shaper Savant or sometimes Viridian Shaman. I'm not sure Aether Sting is even a problem -- just combo off like normal and bounce it eventually, because you usually have at least 20 life to work with. These are definitely speed bumps, but at least we aren't just cold to them. Their biggest impact is the time of which they rob you -- time the rest of the table can use to dig or ramp into other answers.
Rout, Pestilence, Pyrohemia, and other wrath effects are the most problematic and require nothing short of countermagic to effectively answer.
The problem I have been having with this deck is that it is completely non-interactive. It doesn't care what opponents are doing, it just focuses on comboing out. This is great until one or more opponents start dropping little obstacles like the ones above.
I have to say I'm sorry, as that's one of my tendencies as a deckbuilder when it comes to "build around me" combos. When I have an idea, I scour the card databases, start 2 or 3 decks until I get one I like, finish it, then I do a lot of the testing and tweaking via goldfishing. I still manage to win a good chunk of multiplayer games, but that's because of 3 things:
1. My deck is tuned enough that I can just out-muscle everyone;
2. I've prepared extensively and know how to adapt my strategy accordingly;
3. Initially, the other players are unprepared for my angle(s) of attack.
I'm pretty inexperienced when it comes to taking things to an actually competitive level, but I'm willing to try if you guys will help me. I think if we can get a solid backup plan and just enough supporting disruption, this will be a solid contender in most multiplayer metas.
Natural Order -- Wow, this kind of effect opens up a lot of possibilities. I mean, sure, we can use it to further the standard Vig plan, but does anyone know any stupid combo or arbitrary wincon we can tutor out with this bad boy?
Off the top of my head, Regal Force seems to be the most ridiculous, although there might be something better. It doesn't auto win or anything, but it can be insane a lot of times.
Couldn't you just get Primordial Sage or Sages of the Anima or Regal Force and just win? If you're really looking for MORE things to do with it, here's everything I can think of:
Gilt-Leaf Archdruid seems okay to get, but you already cut that from the deck.
Ambush Commander seems REALLY risky, but I guess if people had a rout or some such they'd have wasted it by then? Commander lets Curio do stupid things by turning all your forests into Dryad Arbors, makes Mobilize and Vitalize into Early Harvests, and functions as a sort of win condition if you wanted it to.
Ezuri seems like a good choice. It goes infinite with Devoted Druid, and wins you the game once you find Concordant Crossroads.
If cost isn't an object, you could use Tooth and Nail to assemble all kinds of game winning combos. Ezuri + Devoted Druid or Kamahl + Masticore.
I'm pretty inexperienced when it comes to taking things to an actually competitive level, but I'm willing to try if you guys will help me. I think if we can get a solid backup plan and just enough supporting disruption, this will be a solid contender in most multiplayer metas.
I really want to make this deck work as well. I think it is too good of an engine not to.
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Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
I am currently merging my Ezuri deck with my Vig deck and I was planning on using Ezuri as a back-up plan. There are at least three ways I can think of to find Ezuri (Skyshroud Poacher, Elvish Harbinger, and Vig Himself), So that might be a good way of getting some damage through. I haven't tested this yet, but it sounds pretty good in my head.
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if you are really looking for a back up plan. throwing in an Imperious Perfect with the Intruder Alarm thats already in there will make infinite elf tokens.
I mention these because I have run into each of them in decks in our (fairly large) play group.
The problem I have been having with this deck is that it is completely non-interactive. It doesn't care what opponents are doing, it just focuses on comboing out. This is great until one or more opponents start dropping little obstacles like the ones above.
It may not be optimal, but based on this list, Akroma's Memorial seems like a viable conclusion. It answers the vast majority of these problems while still providing the elves with haste as well as some other helpful bonuses.
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I looked at the Memorial, but you really need it before you combo out and this deck doesn't have a long game. It HAS to combo out pretty quickly or just get run over.
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Current EDH Generals: WAvacyn, Angel of Hope|UAzami, Lady of Scrolls|B| Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|GEzuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UBGrimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RGUlasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WBGhost Council of Orzhova|BGGlissa, the Traitor|GUExperiment Kraj|URMelek, Izzet Paragon RWJor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBRKaalia of the Vast|GWBGhave, Guru of Spores|UBRMarchesa, the Black Rose
Retired WDarien, King of Kjeldor|RJaya Ballard, Task Mage|RNorin the Wary|GBMomir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRGSliver Overlord
Right. It's not optimal, but it is just as likely to land as either of the other "haste" granters in the deck. I reliably land the memorial, when I draw it, on turn 3-4. Just in time to go off turn 4-5.
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I mention these because I have run into each of them in decks in our (fairly large) play group.
The problem I have been having with this deck is that it is completely non-interactive. It doesn't care what opponents are doing, it just focuses on comboing out. This is great until one or more opponents start dropping little obstacles like the ones above.
Never judge a deck based on answers. i have gone for an hour naming cards to someone to prove that there is always an answer to answer cards.
What does anyone think of Recycle and/or Wild Pair as Momir Vigs #2-3? I know they are a little expensive, but they allow you to combo out when Vig is unavailable
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So I've been testing this deck with a lot of the changes we discussed here, both goldfishing and in 1v1 games. Here are my thoughts:
Force of Will sucks. We don't have enough blue cards to make it playable, and when we have a blue card, it's usually something essential like Sleight of Mind that we don't want to pitch. I'm playing Pact of Negation with much better results.
Skullclamp is wonderful and has won me several games. I don't know if that warrants the inclusion of Wirewood Hivemaster, however, since Lys Alana Huntmaster does the same thing but is far more versatile.
Similarly, I've always been happy to see Mobilize. It usually speeds up our clock by a turn and has even been an Eternal Witness target once or twice. Good enough for me.
Mixed feelings on Wild Pair. It's really useful sometimes, and really awkward at others. It's more good than bad, for whatever that's worth. The interaction with Wirewood Symbiote is bonkers and has a lot of potential if we can find something to break it. I'll leave Wild Pair in for now, but it's still at the top of the watch list. One thought: almost every time I have Wild Pair in play, I start wishing we played Trinket Mage for Skullclamp or Sensei's Divining Top. What are your thoughts on this?
Natural Order -- is pretty good. I'm testing Terastodon in here as a Natural Order target, since a turn 3 Natural Order for Terastodon is freaking brutal, whether you go for a one-sided Armageddon or go all-aggro with about 20 powers worth of creatures. Other candidates for this slot are Liege of the Tangle, Woodfall Primus, and Gigantomancer, but my guess is that Terastodon is the most widely useful. Heck, just hardcasting the sucker is swingy.
Skyshroud Poacher is awesome, quickly running away with games if left unchecked. The combo with Intruder Alarm is just gravy.
As stated before, Timetwister is clutch. The more I play it, the more it feels like it belongs here, definitely better than Distant Melody (though Melody is a fine budget alternative; I'm only playing this deck on Cockatrice and MWS).
Green Sun's Zenith is wonderful, obv. Not a lot of need for introduction here. In fact, it even makes Worldly Tutor seem really awkward at times.
I haven't tested Ezuri yet, but I'm excited about it, too.
These changes make the deck feel less focused, but overall I think it's better and definitely more resilient/versatile. In case you're wondering what I took out to make room, my current version is:
-Mul Daya Channelers
-Oracle of Mul Daya
-Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
-Joraga Warcaller
-Glamerdye
-some other stuff I can't remember.
I have actually included Mystical Tutor in place of one of the Sleight effects; it keeps the count the same, sort of, and allows you to refill your hand with Timetwister, pull up Vitalize/Mobilize if it's needed, etc. It's been really solid for me, but YMMV.
Side note: you know what is infuriating? Going through all of your card boxes and all of your wife's and finding 0 Quirion Elves. I know I used to have approximately 3603892731849, but now I apparently don't own any. So annoying.
I like the Mystical Tutor idea. I used to run it in addition to all the Sleight effects, but it would probably be good to just replace one of them for the extra utility. Sleight of Mind itself will probably be the one to get the axe since it's the least versatile (whatever that means).
You know what else is infuriating? Freaking summoning sickness. This would all be so much easier if that would just go away.
You know what else is infuriating? Freaking summoning sickness. This would all be so much easier if that would just go away.
Its not exactly removing summoning sickness but Thousand-Year Elixir would be a very interesting test card as all your elves can tap when they come in, and it can untap a creature as well...
Its not exactly removing summoning sickness but Thousand-Year Elixir would be a very interesting test card as all your elves can tap when they come in, and it can untap a creature as well...
That is already in the deck. Well, in mine, anyway. It's solid, if unspectacular. Allows you to combo off sometimes when you might not otherwise be able to. I wish there was an Elf that granted haste to all Elves, or at least some green non-Elf creature. Damn the man.
Something I have considered playing is Gaea's Herald; it's kind of narrow, but I every game I have lost has literally been due to Vig or another creature being countered. Might be worth looking into. There is a 1v1 event here Sunday, and I will likely play this because I am waiting for a couple of cards for my Niv list to arrive in the mail, so I might try Herald out for that.
I am also tinkering with Intuition, and it has been promising. Might need Regrowth to really make it 100% worthwhile (X card + Regrowth + Witness means you get what you want regardless), but it's been fine so far. I like that it lets you get a Sleight effect no matter what if you need one; that's actually a big positive, IMO.
1. Silhana Starfletcher -- Awesome, more mana elves are always welcome.
2. Sylvok Explorer -- This is okay, but it isn't an elf, which totally sucks at times. Birds of Paradise isn't an elf either, but Birds is a lot better at what it does. Channelers has been good to me so far, but I can see it getting cut for something more reliable in the future.
3. Presence of Gond -- If you're going for a "build with what you have" approach (that's what I'm doing IRL, too), then go for it. However, in an "optimized" build, I don't think we really need any help going infinite with Intruder Alarm. I'm trying to keep the purely non-elf combo cards to a minimum because they can lead to some awkward draws.
Same as #3 above. It can be really awkward to draw into Umbral Mantle without a "big tapper" readily available, and once we start going off, Umbral Mantle is fetchable with Momir Vig via Drift of Phantasms. I think Sword of the Paruns falls into the same category as stuff like Aluren and Presence of Gond -- just not really needed to win.
I can try! Here are all the interactions noteworthy enough to be called combos:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary + Glimpse the Unthinkable/Sleight of Mind variant/Primordial Sage/Magus of the Future -- tacks on an Eladamri's Call to every creature spell you cast. This is the backbone of the deck.
Umbral Mantle + Priest of Titania/Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary/Elvish Archdruid/Wirewood Channeler -- assuming these guys tap for 3, you have an arbitrarily large creature. If they tap for more than 3, you also have infinite mana.
Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel + Lys Alana Huntmaster -- one of the primary mana engines. By the time you get all three active, you should be able to generate enough mana to go for the win very quickly.
Magus of the Future + Sensei's Divining Top -- We've all seen this one before, I think.
Cloudstone Curio/Tidespout Tyrant + Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel + Lys Alana Huntmaster + dinky creatures -- infinite mana via repeatable bounce and untap. Other elves can mimic this engine if you have Concordant Crossroads or Thousand-Year Elixir in play. From here, you can draw your entire deck with Elvish Visionary, or bounce all opposing permanents with Wirewood Symbiote, or whatever.
Sages of the Anima + Glimpse of Nature/Tidespout Tyrant -- This only comes up once in a blue moon, but it does a decent impression of the Momir Vig engine. Instead of tutoring, however, each creature draws you about 1.4 more creatures.
Intruder Alarm + Skyshroud Poacher/Lys Alana Huntmaster/various other combinations of creatures -- lets you easily grab infinite or very large amounts of mana. Poacher also lets you tutor out every creature in your deck.
I hope that sums it up for you. The wincons themselves usually include Tidespout Tyrant or Umbral Mantle or lots of hasty critters.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Having no haste effect in play and hacking Momir Vig on turn 4-5 and getting Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel and building up mana to cast Lys Alana Huntmaster.
Continue to build up mana until I can drop Orochi Leafcaller, Transmuting Drift of Phantasms into Cloudstone Curio. At that point I can finally go infinite on mana. Then I continue to play and bounce stuff to build up a huge token count until the number of green creatures is almost equal to the number of cards left in my library before casting Regal Force to draw the rest of the deck.
At that point, I drop Concordant Crossroads and Umbral Mantle and all the rest of the creatures, bouncing all of my opponent's stuff with Tidespout Tyrant. Then Use the infinite mana to make an Infinite army of Infinite size and swing for the win.
This deck is really amazing in that it can go from an innocent mana-ramping start (are those EVER innocent?) into playing the entire deck on turn five and beating an entire table into submission.
However, the combos are fragile enough and complicated enough that opponents may force you to play out the turn instead of scooping. If that happens, it can take 30-45 mins to play out your winning turn.
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
Here's a couple of gems that might be missing:
Explore seems pretty good mid-combo for when you've drawn your Gaea's Cradle. It also makes the next suggestion a little better.
Dryad Arbor adds a ton of utility in the context of Cloudstone Curio, since it effectively bounces your guy for free.
Mobilize is another copy of Vitalize if you're looking for it.
Skullclamp? I assume there's a reason this isn't in here, but it seems like you might be able to reduce the reliance on Vig a little more by throwing it in. Plus more utility with Dryad Arbor.
Natural Order? Turns a mana elf that's been used into a Regal Force or Primordial Sage? Chord of Calling and the new Green Suns' Zenith would accomplish something similar, if that's the kind of effect you're looking for.
it so true. when i first brought this deck to the edh table. i already had a vig deck. so everyone assumed that's what i was playing again. so when i started to play little mana dorks, everyone just thought that i was having bad draws.
boy did they learn their lesson quick.... well it really took about 40 minutes for them to learn (my group will make me play it out, EVERY time).
Goblin Sharpshooter
Pyrohemia/Pestilence
Tainted Aether
Aether Flash
Aether Sting
Frozen Aether
Loxodon Gatekeeper
Rout
I mention these because I have run into each of them in decks in our (fairly large) play group.
The problem I have been having with this deck is that it is completely non-interactive. It doesn't care what opponents are doing, it just focuses on comboing out. This is great until one or more opponents start dropping little obstacles like the ones above.
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
Explore doesn't really do anything for me for two reasons:
1. Pre-combo, our land count is too low for it to be reliably useful;
2. Once I start comboing off, I can do just fine without Gaea's Cradle.
For similar reasons, Oracle of Mul Daya and Mul Daya Channelers are on the watch list for getting cut from the deck.
Dryad Arbor might be tech. My Teeg deck makes good use out of it. The fact it "comes into play tapped" might be a hindrance, but pumping up Gaea's Cradle is nice.
Mobilize -- now that's a card I can love. Vitalize is always at least a Dark Ritual in this deck (usually better), and I'm always happy to draw it. Thanks for this one!
I'm not really sure why I haven't tested Skullclamp yet. Seems good.
Natural Order -- Wow, this kind of effect opens up a lot of possibilities. I mean, sure, we can use it to further the standard Vig plan, but does anyone know any stupid combo or arbitrary wincon we can tutor out with this bad boy?
I'm really excited about Green Sun's Zenith as well. At the very least, it can tutor up Priest of Titania for 2G, so it's a shoo-in!
For those interested, Timetwister has been grand. Sometimes I don't need it (then it didn't matter what was in that slot, anyway), but more often than not it's just huge.
Some of the cards you mentioned can be circumvented rather easily, but it will cost you a turn (and sometimes a card). Goblin Sharpshooter and Aether Flash is turned off by some combination of Elvish Archdruid and Joraga Warcaller. Frozen Aether, Loxodon Gatekeeper, and Tainted Aether are shut down by an EOT Venser, Shaper Savant or sometimes Viridian Shaman. I'm not sure Aether Sting is even a problem -- just combo off like normal and bounce it eventually, because you usually have at least 20 life to work with. These are definitely speed bumps, but at least we aren't just cold to them. Their biggest impact is the time of which they rob you -- time the rest of the table can use to dig or ramp into other answers.
Rout, Pestilence, Pyrohemia, and other wrath effects are the most problematic and require nothing short of countermagic to effectively answer.
What you didn't list (and what I'm really afraid of):
Cursed Totem
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Aven Mindcensor (still winnable via card advantage, b/c you'll never completely whiff on the top 4)
I have to say I'm sorry, as that's one of my tendencies as a deckbuilder when it comes to "build around me" combos. When I have an idea, I scour the card databases, start 2 or 3 decks until I get one I like, finish it, then I do a lot of the testing and tweaking via goldfishing. I still manage to win a good chunk of multiplayer games, but that's because of 3 things:
1. My deck is tuned enough that I can just out-muscle everyone;
2. I've prepared extensively and know how to adapt my strategy accordingly;
3. Initially, the other players are unprepared for my angle(s) of attack.
I'm pretty inexperienced when it comes to taking things to an actually competitive level, but I'm willing to try if you guys will help me. I think if we can get a solid backup plan and just enough supporting disruption, this will be a solid contender in most multiplayer metas.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Off the top of my head, Regal Force seems to be the most ridiculous, although there might be something better. It doesn't auto win or anything, but it can be insane a lot of times.
Gilt-Leaf Archdruid seems okay to get, but you already cut that from the deck.
Ambush Commander seems REALLY risky, but I guess if people had a rout or some such they'd have wasted it by then? Commander lets Curio do stupid things by turning all your forests into Dryad Arbors, makes Mobilize and Vitalize into Early Harvests, and functions as a sort of win condition if you wanted it to.
Ezuri seems like a good choice. It goes infinite with Devoted Druid, and wins you the game once you find Concordant Crossroads.
If cost isn't an object, you could use Tooth and Nail to assemble all kinds of game winning combos. Ezuri + Devoted Druid or Kamahl + Masticore.
Sidenote: if Skullclamp goes in, so should Wirewood Hivemaster.
I really want to make this deck work as well. I think it is too good of an engine not to.
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier For the awesome banner!
Currently Playing:
RWUZedruuRWU
(G/U)Momir Vig(G/U)
Works In Progress
WBGGhaveWBG
RUGRikuRUG
GRStonebrowGR
RWBrionRW
It may not be optimal, but based on this list, Akroma's Memorial seems like a viable conclusion. It answers the vast majority of these problems while still providing the elves with haste as well as some other helpful bonuses.
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier For the awesome banner!
Currently Playing:
RWUZedruuRWU
(G/U)Momir Vig(G/U)
Works In Progress
WBGGhaveWBG
RUGRikuRUG
GRStonebrowGR
RWBrionRW
W Avacyn, Angel of Hope|U Azami, Lady of Scrolls|B | Ob Nixilis, the Fallen|R Daretti, Scrap Savant|G Ezuri, Renegade Leader|WUBrago, King Eternal|UB Grimgrin, Corpse-born|BR Wort, Boggart Auntie|RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed|GW Captain Sisay|WB Ghost Council of Orzhova|BG Glissa, the Traitor|GU Experiment Kraj|UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
RW Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer|WBR Kaalia of the Vast|GWB Ghave, Guru of Spores|UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
Retired
WDarien, King of Kjeldor|R Jaya Ballard, Task Mage|R Norin the Wary|GB Momir Vig, Simic Visionary|WUBRG Sliver Overlord
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier For the awesome banner!
Currently Playing:
RWUZedruuRWU
(G/U)Momir Vig(G/U)
Works In Progress
WBGGhaveWBG
RUGRikuRUG
GRStonebrowGR
RWBrionRW
Never judge a deck based on answers. i have gone for an hour naming cards to someone to prove that there is always an answer to answer cards.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyThanks to DarkKnightCavalier For the awesome banner!
Currently Playing:
RWUZedruuRWU
(G/U)Momir Vig(G/U)
Works In Progress
WBGGhaveWBG
RUGRikuRUG
GRStonebrowGR
RWBrionRW
Force of Will sucks. We don't have enough blue cards to make it playable, and when we have a blue card, it's usually something essential like Sleight of Mind that we don't want to pitch. I'm playing Pact of Negation with much better results.
Skullclamp is wonderful and has won me several games. I don't know if that warrants the inclusion of Wirewood Hivemaster, however, since Lys Alana Huntmaster does the same thing but is far more versatile.
Similarly, I've always been happy to see Mobilize. It usually speeds up our clock by a turn and has even been an Eternal Witness target once or twice. Good enough for me.
Mixed feelings on Wild Pair. It's really useful sometimes, and really awkward at others. It's more good than bad, for whatever that's worth. The interaction with Wirewood Symbiote is bonkers and has a lot of potential if we can find something to break it. I'll leave Wild Pair in for now, but it's still at the top of the watch list. One thought: almost every time I have Wild Pair in play, I start wishing we played Trinket Mage for Skullclamp or Sensei's Divining Top. What are your thoughts on this?
Natural Order -- is pretty good. I'm testing Terastodon in here as a Natural Order target, since a turn 3 Natural Order for Terastodon is freaking brutal, whether you go for a one-sided Armageddon or go all-aggro with about 20 powers worth of creatures. Other candidates for this slot are Liege of the Tangle, Woodfall Primus, and Gigantomancer, but my guess is that Terastodon is the most widely useful. Heck, just hardcasting the sucker is swingy.
Skyshroud Poacher is awesome, quickly running away with games if left unchecked. The combo with Intruder Alarm is just gravy.
As stated before, Timetwister is clutch. The more I play it, the more it feels like it belongs here, definitely better than Distant Melody (though Melody is a fine budget alternative; I'm only playing this deck on Cockatrice and MWS).
Green Sun's Zenith is wonderful, obv. Not a lot of need for introduction here. In fact, it even makes Worldly Tutor seem really awkward at times.
I haven't tested Ezuri yet, but I'm excited about it, too.
These changes make the deck feel less focused, but overall I think it's better and definitely more resilient/versatile. In case you're wondering what I took out to make room, my current version is:
-Mul Daya Channelers
-Oracle of Mul Daya
-Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
-Joraga Warcaller
-Glamerdye
-some other stuff I can't remember.
I'll post my current list tonight.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
Side note: you know what is infuriating? Going through all of your card boxes and all of your wife's and finding 0 Quirion Elves. I know I used to have approximately 3603892731849, but now I apparently don't own any. So annoying.
You know what else is infuriating? Freaking summoning sickness. This would all be so much easier if that would just go away.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Its not exactly removing summoning sickness but Thousand-Year Elixir would be a very interesting test card as all your elves can tap when they come in, and it can untap a creature as well...
That is already in the deck. Well, in mine, anyway. It's solid, if unspectacular. Allows you to combo off sometimes when you might not otherwise be able to. I wish there was an Elf that granted haste to all Elves, or at least some green non-Elf creature. Damn the man.
Something I have considered playing is Gaea's Herald; it's kind of narrow, but I every game I have lost has literally been due to Vig or another creature being countered. Might be worth looking into. There is a 1v1 event here Sunday, and I will likely play this because I am waiting for a couple of cards for my Niv list to arrive in the mail, so I might try Herald out for that.
I am also tinkering with Intuition, and it has been promising. Might need Regrowth to really make it 100% worthwhile (X card + Regrowth + Witness means you get what you want regardless), but it's been fine so far. I like that it lets you get a Sleight effect no matter what if you need one; that's actually a big positive, IMO.
Just drop it when you need to go off. for 1 mana, its spectacular.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
This is also in the deck. Every way to grant haste (or pseudo haste) that is in color or on an artifact with a decent mana cost is already in here.