Concerted Effort doesn't seem too potent when it will likely end up costing +1 or +2 to play and it's only going to consistently give First Strike. At that point, I'd agree that Victory's Herald would be the way to go. Have you considered Basilisk Collar? Especially if you can get it down early, or cheat it in with someone like Stoneforge? It seems powerful with the first strike.
I have, but I'd rather just go around most of the time. If I was looking to add other equipment, I think I'd start with SoLaS (which is a pain, as it's the sword I don't own), then prioritize evasion. The deck has been very good at keeping people off balance, but runs into trouble when they start to stabilize and drop bigger threats or creature control. Collar doesn't do much for me there other than get cute with my general.
Definitely agree with you and earlier me that Concerted Effort is not what this deck is after.
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Guide eats all of my mana for two turns if I want to swing with her, and can't be used offensively if I only use her to reanimate. The majority of the creatures here aren't worth the 5 mana, because they can just be replaced with different hate bears. I'm not willing to build around the two or three that I would be ok spending 5 mana on resurrecting.
Wayfarer finds lands, but there are only a couple lands worth finding and he's mostly useless when attacking. Also not very effective post-Armageddon, which is admittedly pretty niche but still relevant.
Warden isn't here because I don't care about my life total. I'm either going to have won or lost by the time it's relevant most of the time, and Warden doesn't slow down my opponents or speed up my clock.
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My point was simply that these "creatures" can be used in place of "noncreature" spells, thus limiting your own punishment from Thalia.
In multiplayer, Soul Warden can gain you tons of life without even trying. Karmic Guide is just a reanimation spell. Most people hardly ever pay the echo, but if you need a flying creature you can. And Wayfarer lets you tutor, something white doesn't have a lot of. It can get you your Maze of Ith or Emeria, the Sky Ruin or even just a Strip Mine effect.
They aren't back-breaking creatures, sure. But I was trying to find creatures to help replace the noncreature spells.
First, that really isn't apparent when you just post a list of cards without any explanation. Second, the noncreature spells that are in the deck are there because there is no analogous creature. I'd love it if I could run Crackdown as a creature (though I'd realistically just run both), but there isn't a creature that fills that particular role. The same applies for things like Armageddon and Austere Command. I'm not willing to cut a solid removal or lock card in exchange for some life gain. I'm not looking to add a five drop with little offensive ability just to get back something I could replace for two the next turn. I'm not trying to hunt out a Maze or Emeria, because I don't want to be playing defense. The noncreature spells included are there because I feel that the benefit they bring to the deck is worth the increased cost.
The point of the deck is to keep opponents off balance enough, through taxing and lock effects, that I can use my swarm of creatures with anthem support to deal lethal damage. The cards you suggested are fine to try and avoid Thalia's drawback, they're excellent cards in this format, but they're not pushing the same plan as the rest of the deck, so there isn't a good reason to include them.
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Only three equips in the deck for Kemba, and equipment has anti-synergy with Thalia. I'm unlikely to add a whole lot more of them. Stonecloaker is already in the list.
Thanks again to everyone who's looking!
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I'll give those a shot, though I don't particularly like them for this deck. Null Rod is probably the best option, as it comes down fairly cheaply even with taxing effects out and it is a very powerful effect. Condemn I'm not a fan of, just because it can't clear the way for my dudes. I don't want to include a whole lot of purely defensive cards in here. Once I get a few games in with the most recent changes, I'll move on and test out Null Rod and Condemn.
I updated the list in the OP. A couple of the more defensive elements are gone in favor of some other buffs for attackers as well as a number of ways to get a turn 1 Thalia, which screws up everyone's opening ramp. The slight inconvenience of drawing into them later in the game is offset by the stronger start, and the card disadvantage hasn't been an issue yet.
In games, the weenie strategy has been as powerful as the taxing strategy. I've won a few games where I only saw one half of the total package (anthems or taxing). People around here are almost universally not prepared to deal with early beats. I've generally been focusing on the biggest threat, then getting in extra damage on the other people when there's an opening (pretty much like you would expect), and it's been fairly successful so far. Thanks to everyone making reading and making suggestions!
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So after playing an exact copy of your deck on cockatrice I have to say I'm actually amazed with it. Out of three four player games I won each. One was a turn one winter orb followed by a turn 2 Thalia, dropping that 9 1/2 tails later on. I won through the ability to just stop my opponent's attacks against my stuff. Another one was a turn 2 Thalia followed by a turn 3 thorn of amethyst. Slows down others sooooooooo much. The last game was came down to me with a strong board position and using catastrophe to blow up all the lands, since I had already taxed three into my hand. I really like this deck, good job Weebo.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
So after playing an exact copy of your deck on cockatrice I have to say I'm actually amazed with it. Out of three four player games I won each. One was a turn one winter orb followed by a turn 2 Thalia, dropping that 9 1/2 tails later on. I won through the ability to just stop my opponent's attacks against my stuff. Another one was a turn 2 Thalia followed by a turn 3 thorn of amethyst. Slows down others sooooooooo much. The last game was came down to me with a strong board position and using catastrophe to blow up all the lands, since I had already taxed three into my hand. I really like this deck, good job Weebo.
That's pretty awesome to hear. Thanks for trying it out. I know I've been enjoying this deck a lot so far, so it's good to know someone else appreciates the idea as well. Were there any cards in there that were feeling clunky, or anything you wished you had available in the deck?
The rebel searchers might be worth it simply to get Mirror Entity.
There's a thought. Mirror Entity is arguably the best finisher in the deck. If I added Amrou Scout can keep up some aggression even if I don't go for a rebel and Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero reuses Entity in the late game. Knight of the Holy Nimbus is a possible inclusion as well, as a beater that won't die. It's definitely something to test, though I want to see how the current changes affect the deck before I do too much else with it. Thanks for reading!
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That's pretty awesome to hear. Thanks for trying it out. I know I've been enjoying this deck a lot so far, so it's good to know someone else appreciates the idea as well. Were there any cards in there that were feeling clunky, or anything you wished you had available in the deck?
I'm not too big on mono colored in EDH, especially mono white. However, I second the Mirror Entity idea. Even without rebels to search him out he would be better than Norn in my opinion.
In fact, I dislike Norn very much in this deck, since you don't have a way to ramp into him/cheat him in play. Can't even search him out. Seems like he's overcosted for this type of deck. Like I said, I'm switching him out for the entity.
Edit: Didn't realize entity was in the original draft, lol. Replaced Norn with Lin Sivvi so I could search out the entity.
I noticed you've said that ca hasn't been a big deal for you since Thalia and other cards slow your opponents down so much. I haven't put a lot of time into the deck so I'm not sure how I feel about this aspect of the deck. I'll play it some more and see how it works out. It would also help if my opponent's quit leaving the game, lol.
Btw, a changelog would help.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
Got two games in last night with the deck. One was against a Rafiq and a Hazezon, the fourth player dropped before we started. Anway, I made it so that Hazezon had nothing to do by dropping thalia and glowrider. Hazezon played...maybe two cards before he rage quit. The rafiq was doing well though, dropping a lot of small dudes. I slowed him down a lot though, he had to drop batterskull off a SFM. He ended up playing an armageddon when I had a strong field, but he was able to stabilize before I could. I couldn't find anymore lands and he dropped Rafiq down with batter and unblockable. It was gg from there.
Second game was a 1v1 with the same Rafiq deck. Went like this for me T2: Leonin Arbiter, T3: Thalia, T4: Mentor of the Meek, T5: Mirror Entity and Samurai of the Pale Moon. His t6 he played armageddon, which was a serious misplay. I ended up just beating in with my guys and won out. He was able to get out Rafiq but I STPed him and Pathed another threat. I played Arbiter t2 because I knew he had a lot of search and fetchlands. I was right, on his turn 3 he dropped a fetch, had to pay 2 to use it. His t4 he dropped a SFM, but didn't go fetch. I was actually lucky in this game, if he hadn't used armageddon I would probably had lost.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
Seems like a fun deck to play! How do your opponents react to this? With all the tax effects I would guess they aren't too pleased playing against it a few games in a row?
Seems like a fun deck to play! How do your opponents react to this? With all the tax effects I would guess they aren't too pleased playing against it a few games in a row?
Well let's see, I had one guy curse me out after I dropped a winter orb. Another rage quit when I played armageddon. So yeah, they don't like playing against it. It's a very fun deck to play, but it won't make you any friends.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
That's nice, but that's what Victory's Herald is for. Doesn't give double strike but it's also a 4/4 flyer that doesn't cost 4WWW if our general is out. As much synergy as possible with our general is key. That means that if there is a creature that does as much as the same as a non creature at the same mana cost, especially the lower ones, we need to run the creature instead.
However, if you think it deserves testing, or it would work in your meta better, then go ahead and play it. Please, tell us how it goes!
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
I like Soltari Visionary in this kind of deck. Another decent removal option is Intrepid Hero; anything small you are going to munch anyway, and he kills nasty opposing aggro commanders before they can greaves up.
If you end up taking these removal creatures then Path to Exile could go because giving your opponent lands seems to run directly counter to your stax theme. Likewise I'm unsure that you can get a big White Sun's Zenith early enough to be interesting, especially if you end up playing through your own orbs or stuff. I'd also be eyeing Stoneforge Mystic's usefulness in playtesting versus some other tutor like Weathered Wayfarer.
Visionary is one of the cards that's been constantly on the radar. What's kept it out of the deck so far is the relatively limited number of enchantments that have been giving me trouble. The utility combined with the evasion really should put it over the edge, though.
Intrepid Hero I'm not a big fan of because he is so very reactive. Path has the downside of accelerating an opponent, but it also clears out a blocker or whatever other creature is keeping you from stomping your opponent. Path also interacts beautifully with a couple of the hate guys, if you're fortunate enough to get them out at the same time. Hero needs to stick around for a turn cycle and can't hit little guys, who can definitely be problematic. Being a 3 cmc 1/1 really doesn't help his case either, as he's terrible on offense.
White Sun's has been solid for me so far. A single anthem effect means you're getting the same power out as mana in if you make two or more cats, even with Thalia or a similar effect on the field, and making three or four cats hasn't been terribly uncommon. Thalia also tends to draw removal, and she's not exactly cost efficient if she gets killed twice, especially with all the other hate in the deck, so I've frequently had openings to cast it without any kind of tax.
Stoneforge vs Wayfarer: Wayfarer has come up a few times, and my view has pretty much remained the same: there's just not enough worth fetching with him. Best possible things I can get are Emeria, Strip Mine, or a manland, and by the time I'm relying on those the deck is probably done for or pretty close to it. Even with just twoequips currently in the deck, Stoneforge always grabs me something with more impact on the game. She's also not dependent on how my opponents are doing and her ability can dodge taxes, as she's generally not very threatening after tutoring.
How about the new grafdigger's cage? Prevent those sac and recur stratergies, stops GSZ, chord etcetc, also works with a null rod on the field...
If it was stapled to a creature, it would have been in in a heartbeat. As it is, it's still worth trying out. I just don't want to dilute the creature base too much, and I've already got a few things to test out.
Seems like a fun deck to play! How do your opponents react to this? With all the tax effects I would guess they aren't too pleased playing against it a few games in a row?
I'm actually not mean enough to play this for a few games in a row, so I haven't run into that too much. I've had one person scoop in frustration and one person who refused to play the deck a second time, though. The overall response has been pretty positive, as my meta has a lot of the stereotypical obnoxious combos and such. People like seeing a different take on things, and this has been a pretty solid effort.
I pretty much agree with blackkithkin on this one. Super expensive and there are cards that fill its role already there. I'm still constantly considering it, because a board full of double striking, anthem buffed weenies is pretty potent.
@blackkithkin20: Rather than respond to each post, I'll just cover it all here. First, it's great that you're still playing around with this deck. I'm definitely interested in seeing what you think of Lin Sivvi, and whether you think it's worth including another rebel or two in the deck. The reason Elesh is in there is basically as an Overrun. The deck regrettably does hit 7 mana on a semi regular basis in my experience, and she goes a long way towards closing things out as opponents hit that stabilizing point. I could definitely see her coming out as the deck gets leaner and more refined though.
If we add a couple rebels, I think it's worth considering Bound in Silence as well. Tutorable removal that dodges tax effects could be handy, and the fact that it's not a permanent thing is pretty unimportant here.
I'll get a chance to get a few more games in with the deck tomorrow sometime, or possibly later today if there's nothing going on/I feel like chancing the pit of Cockatrice. That should give me an opportunity to see how the current changes are working and try out some of the other stuff. Thanks to all who are reading!
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just a thought, how about vedalken orrey? with tax effects out, the turn after a resolved orrery is very dangerous. EOT wrath recovery through stuff like mentor of the meek + creatures, EOT swords, or perhaps the ultimate db play of opponents upkeep armageddon?
Orrery is good in a deck that wants to run answers. It allows you to leave mana up through your opponent's turns without crippling your own board development. This deck doesn't want to have the answers. This deck wants to be asking the questions. Orrery costs 4 mana (minimum, with a general who ups the cost), doesn't affect the board in a significant way, and the interactions are more cute than effective. EoT only matters if you were leaving mana up in the first place, and that doesn't happen here unless you don't have anything to do with it on your turn. You're more than welcome to try it out, but this doesn't seem like the place for it in the slightest.
I have, but I'd rather just go around most of the time. If I was looking to add other equipment, I think I'd start with SoLaS (which is a pain, as it's the sword I don't own), then prioritize evasion. The deck has been very good at keeping people off balance, but runs into trouble when they start to stabilize and drop bigger threats or creature control. Collar doesn't do much for me there other than get cute with my general.
Definitely agree with you and earlier me that Concerted Effort is not what this deck is after.
Weathered Wayfarer
Soul Warden
Guide eats all of my mana for two turns if I want to swing with her, and can't be used offensively if I only use her to reanimate. The majority of the creatures here aren't worth the 5 mana, because they can just be replaced with different hate bears. I'm not willing to build around the two or three that I would be ok spending 5 mana on resurrecting.
Wayfarer finds lands, but there are only a couple lands worth finding and he's mostly useless when attacking. Also not very effective post-Armageddon, which is admittedly pretty niche but still relevant.
Warden isn't here because I don't care about my life total. I'm either going to have won or lost by the time it's relevant most of the time, and Warden doesn't slow down my opponents or speed up my clock.
In multiplayer, Soul Warden can gain you tons of life without even trying. Karmic Guide is just a reanimation spell. Most people hardly ever pay the echo, but if you need a flying creature you can. And Wayfarer lets you tutor, something white doesn't have a lot of. It can get you your Maze of Ith or Emeria, the Sky Ruin or even just a Strip Mine effect.
They aren't back-breaking creatures, sure. But I was trying to find creatures to help replace the noncreature spells.
The point of the deck is to keep opponents off balance enough, through taxing and lock effects, that I can use my swarm of creatures with anthem support to deal lethal damage. The cards you suggested are fine to try and avoid Thalia's drawback, they're excellent cards in this format, but they're not pushing the same plan as the rest of the deck, so there isn't a good reason to include them.
UBInf. Grim-Grim DamageBU
EDH
UBRWGBaby Go BOOMGWRBU
UBR What's in the Toolbox?RBU
UBThe HoardBU
Only three equips in the deck for Kemba, and equipment has anti-synergy with Thalia. I'm unlikely to add a whole lot more of them. Stonecloaker is already in the list.
Thanks again to everyone who's looking!
I like that. I'm not sure how I skipped Kataki. I'll find a spot for it.
Condemn is always good general hate.
GRRWHazezon Tamar (Valakut)GRRW
UKami of the Crescent Moon (
Group Hug)UUHeidar, Rimewind Master [Mini-Primer]U
WKemba, Kha Regent (Stax)W
GEzuri, Renegade Leader [Primer]G
I'll give those a shot, though I don't particularly like them for this deck. Null Rod is probably the best option, as it comes down fairly cheaply even with taxing effects out and it is a very powerful effect. Condemn I'm not a fan of, just because it can't clear the way for my dudes. I don't want to include a whole lot of purely defensive cards in here. Once I get a few games in with the most recent changes, I'll move on and test out Null Rod and Condemn.
I updated the list in the OP. A couple of the more defensive elements are gone in favor of some other buffs for attackers as well as a number of ways to get a turn 1 Thalia, which screws up everyone's opening ramp. The slight inconvenience of drawing into them later in the game is offset by the stronger start, and the card disadvantage hasn't been an issue yet.
In games, the weenie strategy has been as powerful as the taxing strategy. I've won a few games where I only saw one half of the total package (anthems or taxing). People around here are almost universally not prepared to deal with early beats. I've generally been focusing on the biggest threat, then getting in extra damage on the other people when there's an opening (pretty much like you would expect), and it's been fairly successful so far. Thanks to everyone making reading and making suggestions!
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
That's pretty awesome to hear. Thanks for trying it out. I know I've been enjoying this deck a lot so far, so it's good to know someone else appreciates the idea as well. Were there any cards in there that were feeling clunky, or anything you wished you had available in the deck?
There's a thought. Mirror Entity is arguably the best finisher in the deck. If I added Amrou Scout can keep up some aggression even if I don't go for a rebel and Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero reuses Entity in the late game. Knight of the Holy Nimbus is a possible inclusion as well, as a beater that won't die. It's definitely something to test, though I want to see how the current changes affect the deck before I do too much else with it. Thanks for reading!
I'm not too big on mono colored in EDH, especially mono white. However, I second the Mirror Entity idea. Even without rebels to search him out he would be better than Norn in my opinion.
In fact, I dislike Norn very much in this deck, since you don't have a way to ramp into him/cheat him in play. Can't even search him out. Seems like he's overcosted for this type of deck. Like I said, I'm switching him out for the entity.
Edit: Didn't realize entity was in the original draft, lol. Replaced Norn with Lin Sivvi so I could search out the entity.
I noticed you've said that ca hasn't been a big deal for you since Thalia and other cards slow your opponents down so much. I haven't put a lot of time into the deck so I'm not sure how I feel about this aspect of the deck. I'll play it some more and see how it works out. It would also help if my opponent's quit leaving the game, lol.
Btw, a changelog would help.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
Second game was a 1v1 with the same Rafiq deck. Went like this for me T2: Leonin Arbiter, T3: Thalia, T4: Mentor of the Meek, T5: Mirror Entity and Samurai of the Pale Moon. His t6 he played armageddon, which was a serious misplay. I ended up just beating in with my guys and won out. He was able to get out Rafiq but I STPed him and Pathed another threat. I played Arbiter t2 because I knew he had a lot of search and fetchlands. I was right, on his turn 3 he dropped a fetch, had to pay 2 to use it. His t4 he dropped a SFM, but didn't go fetch. I was actually lucky in this game, if he hadn't used armageddon I would probably had lost.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
BRGWTana and TymnaBRGW
RTeneb, the EternalR
UBRNekusar, Mind RazerUBR
Rakdos, Lord of Riots
BGWGhave, Guru of SporesBGW
Aurelia, the Warleader
BDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefB
WBROros, the AvengerWBR
Well let's see, I had one guy curse me out after I dropped a winter orb. Another rage quit when I played armageddon. So yeah, they don't like playing against it. It's a very fun deck to play, but it won't make you any friends.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
That's nice, but that's what Victory's Herald is for. Doesn't give double strike but it's also a 4/4 flyer that doesn't cost 4WWW if our general is out. As much synergy as possible with our general is key. That means that if there is a creature that does as much as the same as a non creature at the same mana cost, especially the lower ones, we need to run the creature instead.
However, if you think it deserves testing, or it would work in your meta better, then go ahead and play it. Please, tell us how it goes!
Keep in mind these are just my $0.02 anyway.
Cockatrice Username: seriph0
Visionary is one of the cards that's been constantly on the radar. What's kept it out of the deck so far is the relatively limited number of enchantments that have been giving me trouble. The utility combined with the evasion really should put it over the edge, though.
Intrepid Hero I'm not a big fan of because he is so very reactive. Path has the downside of accelerating an opponent, but it also clears out a blocker or whatever other creature is keeping you from stomping your opponent. Path also interacts beautifully with a couple of the hate guys, if you're fortunate enough to get them out at the same time. Hero needs to stick around for a turn cycle and can't hit little guys, who can definitely be problematic. Being a 3 cmc 1/1 really doesn't help his case either, as he's terrible on offense.
White Sun's has been solid for me so far. A single anthem effect means you're getting the same power out as mana in if you make two or more cats, even with Thalia or a similar effect on the field, and making three or four cats hasn't been terribly uncommon. Thalia also tends to draw removal, and she's not exactly cost efficient if she gets killed twice, especially with all the other hate in the deck, so I've frequently had openings to cast it without any kind of tax.
Stoneforge vs Wayfarer: Wayfarer has come up a few times, and my view has pretty much remained the same: there's just not enough worth fetching with him. Best possible things I can get are Emeria, Strip Mine, or a manland, and by the time I'm relying on those the deck is probably done for or pretty close to it. Even with just two equips currently in the deck, Stoneforge always grabs me something with more impact on the game. She's also not dependent on how my opponents are doing and her ability can dodge taxes, as she's generally not very threatening after tutoring.
If it was stapled to a creature, it would have been in in a heartbeat. As it is, it's still worth trying out. I just don't want to dilute the creature base too much, and I've already got a few things to test out.
I'm actually not mean enough to play this for a few games in a row, so I haven't run into that too much. I've had one person scoop in frustration and one person who refused to play the deck a second time, though. The overall response has been pretty positive, as my meta has a lot of the stereotypical obnoxious combos and such. People like seeing a different take on things, and this has been a pretty solid effort.
I pretty much agree with blackkithkin on this one. Super expensive and there are cards that fill its role already there. I'm still constantly considering it, because a board full of double striking, anthem buffed weenies is pretty potent.
@blackkithkin20: Rather than respond to each post, I'll just cover it all here. First, it's great that you're still playing around with this deck. I'm definitely interested in seeing what you think of Lin Sivvi, and whether you think it's worth including another rebel or two in the deck. The reason Elesh is in there is basically as an Overrun. The deck regrettably does hit 7 mana on a semi regular basis in my experience, and she goes a long way towards closing things out as opponents hit that stabilizing point. I could definitely see her coming out as the deck gets leaner and more refined though.
If we add a couple rebels, I think it's worth considering Bound in Silence as well. Tutorable removal that dodges tax effects could be handy, and the fact that it's not a permanent thing is pretty unimportant here.
I'll get a chance to get a few more games in with the deck tomorrow sometime, or possibly later today if there's nothing going on/I feel like chancing the pit of Cockatrice. That should give me an opportunity to see how the current changes are working and try out some of the other stuff. Thanks to all who are reading!