Mangcho: I PM'd you, to keep potential flaming out of the thread.
I do agree with you on Gilded Lotus. Although I feel that Condemn and Swords are not good to run in this kind of deck. I can remember several games where I end up losing because my opponent hung on at like 1 life, and then came back from the jaws of defeat on his turn to kill me.
MULTIPLAYER GAME BREAKING CARDS: these should be auto includes
sensei top (no top ur slackin..), mind's eye, luminarch's ascension (angels lol) sorin markov (instakill?!) and possibly bloodchief's ascension (nuke with this active is gg) if u have enough punishment
wrath of the vast:
hallowed burial, wrath of god, damnation, day of judgement, armageddon, ravages of war, devastation, jokulhaups, obliteration, decree of annihilation, impending disaster
revenge:
comet storm
no spot removal, u will nuke everything on the board, there is no need
random utility:
graveborn muse, wurmcoil, promise of power
with this many nukes the idea is play mana rocks and enchants then nuke. rinse and repeat until ur enemies are locked/dead.
Sanity, here's a weird and crazy thought... what are your feelings about Abyssal Persecutor in the deck? I think the "your opponent's can't lose and you can't win" would cause some really weird interactions in a multiplayer game. It might be good for politics, you know? One player activates a combo to, say... infinite mill or infinite burn, and can't autowin, because your other 2 opponent's can't lose. I wonder if this would cause people to try to help you, to keep the Abyssal around a little bit so they could stay in the game.
It would probably actually have the effect of making sure you got targeted first, so the strongest player could then continnue his beat down of the other players. But... it's still funny to think about.
Ok first off I just want to say I really like the idea behind this deck. Sanity I was wondering if you thought about using Personal Sanctuary? The combo with Manabarbs is really interesting and I think it could help with survival. Any thoughts?
Totally haven't noticed your post, Hellsridge. My problem with Sanctuary is that it only protects against Manabarbs, off the top of my head, and it doesn't do a whole lot other than that.
EDIT: Alright, so it also protects against Spellshock and Spiteful Visions, but it's still only three cards that one other card protects me from.
Got my hands on a Mudslide, will be testing it out when I can.
Yeah, so Oros, you're going bye bye when INN gets here. xDD
Balefire Dragon 5RR
Creature - Dragon (M)
Flying
When Balefire Dragon deals combat damage to a player, it deals that much damage to each creature that player controls.
6/6
I think Moat would be a great card to include in Kaalia-decks, as almost everything Kaalia-related has flying. Unfortunately, I don't have Moat. If I did, I would include it.
Balefire Dragon- A bit redundant in your deck, you run more than enough wrath effects.
Angelic Overseer- You don't run enough humans to consistently allow her to show her value.
Bloodgift Demon- Not too bad, but better draw options should be available. In my opinion Kaalia decks get bombed with wrath effects too much to run cards like this, but it might be really good in some play groups.
Reaper of the Abyss- I intend to test him, but I have some serious doubts. With how much wrath you run, there is a good chance that his effect will become lackluster, and often backfire forcing you to sacrifice one of your own creatures. He's good enough to test though.
EDIT: Also, has Angel's Trumpet really worked out well for you? What have your experiences with it been? Also, have you ever considered adding in Grand Abolisher? He is a perfect setup for a safe Kaalia drop, and he's cheap.
EDIT2: Other recommendations: Karmic Guide (is an angel type, and can allow Kaalia to cheat in two creatures) Mimic Vat (with so many ETB effects, it is amazing in this deck) Vindicate (because...it's amazing?) Divine Reckoning (new card from INN. Made for KotV in my opinion.)
Some more spot removal might do some good, so that when a single heavy threat is dropped you don't always have to blow up everything to eliminate it. Unmake, Terminate, Swords to Plowshares all do this well.
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
Overseer - I'll admit I'm really on the fence. If I pull her, or can get an easy trade for her, sure I'll try her.
Bloodgift - A backup Seizan, Perverter of Truth, if I find something else in the list that doesn't work.
Reaper - Maybe on the wraths, but we'll just have to wait and test. Also, I just use the wraths to keep everyone under control until lategame, which is when I personally drop Kaalia (if you didn't know).
I actually don't have the exact list from post one in real life, I'm slowly building it while testing some other possibilities. So I'll have to get back to you on Trumpet, and Blackjack was curious about War's Toll.
For flavor, I'm only running Angel, Demon and Dragon creatures. The one non-A-D-D creature I'm considering is World Queller.
First thing I learned from running a Kaalia deck is that if you have more than a few creatures that are almost useless if Kaalia isn't on the battlefield, you probably lose. The cards CMC makes her appealing to cast from hand, which is good because Kaalia isn't always available in most decks. Then you evaluate her next to the other 5 mana creatures in the deck who you play when Kaalia is MIA like Baneslayer or Basandra, and she is outshined.
It's in no way a bad card, I just advise some caution when you are imagining the card's power. In his deck, the card reads "3WW Flying. If KotV (the one card everyone wants to tear to pieces) is on your side of the battlefield, ~ becomes hexproof and indestructible. If not, fear removal as small as Lightning Bolt. 5/3."
"Common sense is not as common as one would believe."
"These kids today with their collector numbers and their newfangled tap symbol. Twenty Black Lotuses and twenty Plague Rats. Now that's real Magic."-Old Fogey
It's in no way a bad card, I just advise some caution when you are imagining the card's power. In his deck, the card reads "3WW Flying. If KotV (the one card everyone wants to tear to pieces) is on your side of the battlefield, ~ becomes hexproof and indestructible. If not, fear removal as small as Lightning Bolt. 5/3."
I imagine Overseer won't be nearly as good as Baneslayer, so she's down there on the "to acquire" list, if I even do. But she could be a potential budget option for someone just starting to build the deck.
Yeah I can see what you mean about Personal Sanctuary, I personally run Manabarbs and Phyrexian Arena so I find it helps negate that life loss. Definetly pumped about Innistrad though, new duals and new creatures!
Yeah I can see what you mean about Personal Sanctuary, I personally run Manabarbs and Phyrexian Arena so I find it helps negate that life loss. Definetly pumped about Innistrad though, new duals and new creatures!
Sanctuary will keep Barbs from damaging you, but you still have to take the life loss off of Arena.
[card]
EDIT2: Other recommendations: Karmic Guide (is an angel type, and can allow Kaalia to cheat in two creatures) Mimic Vat (with so many ETB effects, it is amazing in this deck) Vindicate (because...it's amazing?) Divine Reckoning (new card from INN. Made for KotV in my opinion.)
Some more spot removal might do some good, so that when a single heavy threat is dropped you don't always have to blow up everything to eliminate it. Unmake, Terminate, Swords to Plowshares all do this well.
So you must've edited this part in much later then your original post.
- I do want to pick up a Karmic Guide, I'm just really short on money right now.
- Mimic Vat I can see is a good card, but I don't know, I'm just "meh" over it. It's probably just a card I need to play with first. /shrug
- Vindicate, once again, if I had the money, I'd definitely want to pick one up.
- Divine Reckoning, I'm not sure. If I can get one, it'll serve as my placeholder Wrath of God, I guess. I'm already running "full" wrath effects, so randomly having a near-full wrath seems a little wonky to me. /shrug
- Spot Removal. I have an Unmake and Terminates, it's just that I have no idea what I would start dropping to put more of them in the deck.
I am thinking that the INN Black reanimate spell with White flashback, Unburial Rites, will serve as my Debtors' Knell placeholder though.
___________________________________________________________________
So with the dismantling of my Karrthus deck, I have a fair few dragons freed up for a potential spot. Mana-Charged Dragon is awesome, but I just don't think people will be joining forces that often. So here's a list of the dragons from Karrthus that could fit: Thunder Dragon - Already have wrath effects aplenty, and this one's conditional. Scourge of Kher Ridges - I just don't want to be taking out my other flyers. Hellkite Charger - A likely inclusion, at least for now. Not sure about having the mana to pay for extra combat, but it could happen. Ryusei, the Falling Star - Actually seems a bit better then Thunderbutt up there. Kokusho, the Evening Star [allowed, 'cause really, he's not broken] - /shrug. I have a copy of all 5 dragons, and only Yosei is being used at the moment. Moltensteel Dragon - Considering all the punishment going on, his Phyrebreathing seems less than ideal. Doesn't do a whole lot either. Bladewing the Risen - Don't think I'm running enough dragons, but with Oros or MCD being replaced by the INN dragon, maybe. Kilnmouth Dragon - Once again, not enough dragons probably. Knollspine Dragon - Placeholder for Dragon Mage?
Alright, Innistrad Pre-Release today. Let's hope I pull/can trade for something epic xD.
And my copy of Bloodchief Ascension might be freed up pretty quick here, what do you guys say about it in Kaalia? With Spellshock, it charges up everytime an opponent plays anything, and buffs me against my own punishment. But at the same time, it could take a while to charge, etc.
Cool. Seems like she'd be cool if controlling attacks was part of your plan. You also don't have any battle shenanigans of your own that she'd shut down. I know what you mean about not having much time to play. I'm way out of college, but with wife, kids, and job I spend more time thinking about my decks than playing them.
He had an early Aura Shards, but I tucked it with Hide//Seek. I would've been screwed otherwise. I played Deathless Angel, blocked a 9-ish or so Ghave once or twice.
I'll admit, I may have actually died before this next turn I'll describe. Neither of us could remember if I had taken a 10+ hit from Ghave for Comm Dmg. But anyway, I take Ghave's 12, and a regular 6 from Teneb, putting me at 30 life, mid 20's, something.
But on his end step, I Comet Stormed him for 12 I think it was, bringing him down to 15. I then play Bogardan Hellkite, sending 5 to the face, he goes to 10 life. Hellkite has +2/+0 and haste from Web of War, and I swing with Reya and him for 11, taking the game.
TL;DR: the Split card is definitely a card to consider, Mudslide don't have an opinion on, I need more duals etc that can produce red lol, I was short a R for a few turns.
I do agree with you on Gilded Lotus. Although I feel that Condemn and Swords are not good to run in this kind of deck. I can remember several games where I end up losing because my opponent hung on at like 1 life, and then came back from the jaws of defeat on his turn to kill me.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
angels: iona (wth no iona lol), baneslayer, akroma wrath, akroma fury, linvala, angel of despair, archangel of strife
demons: rune scarred, seizan
dragons: dragon mage, bogardan hellkite
MULTIPLAYER GAME BREAKING CARDS: these should be auto includes
sensei top (no top ur slackin..), mind's eye, luminarch's ascension (angels lol) sorin markov (instakill?!) and possibly bloodchief's ascension (nuke with this active is gg) if u have enough punishment
wrath of the vast:
hallowed burial, wrath of god, damnation, day of judgement, armageddon, ravages of war, devastation, jokulhaups, obliteration, decree of annihilation, impending disaster
revenge:
comet storm
no spot removal, u will nuke everything on the board, there is no need
random utility:
graveborn muse, wurmcoil, promise of power
with this many nukes the idea is play mana rocks and enchants then nuke. rinse and repeat until ur enemies are locked/dead.
It would probably actually have the effect of making sure you got targeted first, so the strongest player could then continnue his beat down of the other players. But... it's still funny to think about.
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
I dunno on Percy. I'd have the temptation to add in Platinum Angel just to annoy everyone, haha. I had a copy but traded it away, anyway.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
EDIT: Alright, so it also protects against Spellshock and Spiteful Visions, but it's still only three cards that one other card protects me from.
Got my hands on a Mudslide, will be testing it out when I can.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
Balefire Dragon 5RR
Creature - Dragon (M)
Flying
When Balefire Dragon deals combat damage to a player, it deals that much damage to each creature that player controls.
6/6
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
:symu::symr::symg:Riku of Two Reflections (ETB toolbox)
:symw::symb::symr:Kaalia of the Vast Reanimator
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Karona's Proliferating Allies
Teferi, mage of Zhalfir
Bloodgift Demon is definitely another guy I'm considering, but no card is jumping out at me as "Replace Me!"
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
Balefire Dragon, Angelic Overseer, Bloodgift Demon, and Reaper of the Abyss all need to be tested with her, and that's only a third of the set so far.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
Balefire Dragon- A bit redundant in your deck, you run more than enough wrath effects.
Angelic Overseer- You don't run enough humans to consistently allow her to show her value.
Bloodgift Demon- Not too bad, but better draw options should be available. In my opinion Kaalia decks get bombed with wrath effects too much to run cards like this, but it might be really good in some play groups.
Reaper of the Abyss- I intend to test him, but I have some serious doubts. With how much wrath you run, there is a good chance that his effect will become lackluster, and often backfire forcing you to sacrifice one of your own creatures. He's good enough to test though.
EDIT: Also, has Angel's Trumpet really worked out well for you? What have your experiences with it been? Also, have you ever considered adding in Grand Abolisher? He is a perfect setup for a safe Kaalia drop, and he's cheap.
EDIT2: Other recommendations: Karmic Guide (is an angel type, and can allow Kaalia to cheat in two creatures)
Mimic Vat (with so many ETB effects, it is amazing in this deck)
Vindicate (because...it's amazing?)
Divine Reckoning (new card from INN. Made for KotV in my opinion.)
Some more spot removal might do some good, so that when a single heavy threat is dropped you don't always have to blow up everything to eliminate it. Unmake, Terminate, Swords to Plowshares all do this well.
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
Kaalia is a human. That's pretty consistent.
Balefire - Better than Oros at least, IMO.
Overseer - I'll admit I'm really on the fence. If I pull her, or can get an easy trade for her, sure I'll try her.
Bloodgift - A backup Seizan, Perverter of Truth, if I find something else in the list that doesn't work.
Reaper - Maybe on the wraths, but we'll just have to wait and test. Also, I just use the wraths to keep everyone under control until lategame, which is when I personally drop Kaalia (if you didn't know).
I actually don't have the exact list from post one in real life, I'm slowly building it while testing some other possibilities. So I'll have to get back to you on Trumpet, and Blackjack was curious about War's Toll.
For flavor, I'm only running Angel, Demon and Dragon creatures. The one non-A-D-D creature I'm considering is World Queller.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
First thing I learned from running a Kaalia deck is that if you have more than a few creatures that are almost useless if Kaalia isn't on the battlefield, you probably lose. The cards CMC makes her appealing to cast from hand, which is good because Kaalia isn't always available in most decks. Then you evaluate her next to the other 5 mana creatures in the deck who you play when Kaalia is MIA like Baneslayer or Basandra, and she is outshined.
It's in no way a bad card, I just advise some caution when you are imagining the card's power. In his deck, the card reads "3WW Flying. If KotV (the one card everyone wants to tear to pieces) is on your side of the battlefield, ~ becomes hexproof and indestructible. If not, fear removal as small as Lightning Bolt. 5/3."
WBSorin's ArmyWB
RRRRDWRRR
RGWerewolvesRG
EDH/Commander:
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR(Multiplayer Competitive Primer and Beginner's Guide)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR (1v1 Competitive Primer)
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB(1v1 Shotgun Venom)
I imagine Overseer won't be nearly as good as Baneslayer, so she's down there on the "to acquire" list, if I even do. But she could be a potential budget option for someone just starting to build the deck.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
Sanctuary will keep Barbs from damaging you, but you still have to take the life loss off of Arena.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
So you must've edited this part in much later then your original post.
- I do want to pick up a Karmic Guide, I'm just really short on money right now.
- Mimic Vat I can see is a good card, but I don't know, I'm just "meh" over it. It's probably just a card I need to play with first. /shrug
- Vindicate, once again, if I had the money, I'd definitely want to pick one up.
- Divine Reckoning, I'm not sure. If I can get one, it'll serve as my placeholder Wrath of God, I guess. I'm already running "full" wrath effects, so randomly having a near-full wrath seems a little wonky to me. /shrug
- Spot Removal. I have an Unmake and Terminates, it's just that I have no idea what I would start dropping to put more of them in the deck.
I am thinking that the INN Black reanimate spell with White flashback, Unburial Rites, will serve as my Debtors' Knell placeholder though.
___________________________________________________________________
So with the dismantling of my Karrthus deck, I have a fair few dragons freed up for a potential spot. Mana-Charged Dragon is awesome, but I just don't think people will be joining forces that often. So here's a list of the dragons from Karrthus that could fit:
Thunder Dragon - Already have wrath effects aplenty, and this one's conditional.
Scourge of Kher Ridges - I just don't want to be taking out my other flyers.
Hellkite Charger - A likely inclusion, at least for now. Not sure about having the mana to pay for extra combat, but it could happen.
Ryusei, the Falling Star - Actually seems a bit better then Thunderbutt up there.
Kokusho, the Evening Star [allowed, 'cause really, he's not broken] - /shrug. I have a copy of all 5 dragons, and only Yosei is being used at the moment.
Moltensteel Dragon - Considering all the punishment going on, his Phyrebreathing seems less than ideal. Doesn't do a whole lot either.
Bladewing the Risen - Don't think I'm running enough dragons, but with Oros or MCD being replaced by the INN dragon, maybe.
Kilnmouth Dragon - Once again, not enough dragons probably.
Knollspine Dragon - Placeholder for Dragon Mage?
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
And my copy of Bloodchief Ascension might be freed up pretty quick here, what do you guys say about it in Kaalia? With Spellshock, it charges up everytime an opponent plays anything, and buffs me against my own punishment. But at the same time, it could take a while to charge, etc.
EDIT: So I got a hold of a Marsh Flats, woot. Hide//Seek too, which I will test against decks I actually know, and Unburial Rites, my budget placeholder for Debtors' Knell.
What do y'all think of Elspeth, Knight-Errant?
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
He had an early Aura Shards, but I tucked it with Hide//Seek. I would've been screwed otherwise. I played Deathless Angel, blocked a 9-ish or so Ghave once or twice.
I had Manabarbs and Ghostly Prison out for several turns, but barbs got blown up by my own Aura of Silence (Praetor's Grasp). I played Mudslide, Norn's Annex, Stranglehold, Martyr's Bond, and In the Web of War on various turns, along with Reya Dawnbringer, to keep reanimating Angelic Arbiter and Deathless to serve as blockers.
I'll admit, I may have actually died before this next turn I'll describe. Neither of us could remember if I had taken a 10+ hit from Ghave for Comm Dmg. But anyway, I take Ghave's 12, and a regular 6 from Teneb, putting me at 30 life, mid 20's, something.
But on his end step, I Comet Stormed him for 12 I think it was, bringing him down to 15. I then play Bogardan Hellkite, sending 5 to the face, he goes to 10 life. Hellkite has +2/+0 and haste from Web of War, and I swing with Reya and him for 11, taking the game.
TL;DR: the Split card is definitely a card to consider, Mudslide don't have an opinion on, I need more duals etc that can produce red lol, I was short a R for a few turns.
Good stuff.
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---