MTG Salvation

This deck is now officially retired. It's being turned into a Xiahou Dun Stax deck. I'll post the lists when I have it a little more tuned.

This is the old OP from when this was a Kagemaro deck.

So I got a chance to play some 3 person games with this deck and man was I impressed. Basically I let everyone throwing out creatures and threats while I sit on a 7 or so card hand and continually wipe the board and win later on. Nobody wants to attack you when you can easily wipe their board. The last game I played I was running out of mana to recast Kagemaro so I EOT cast
Devastating dreams pitching 4 cards and stacking Leyline of the void, cabal coffers,Exsanguinate and ancient craving as the top card. Next turn cast ancient craving, played coffers cast the helm of obedience plus Leyline of the void and insta milled one player then the next turn attacked for 15 with the 5 tokens i had from him cloning terastadon and blowing up my lands and exsanguinated for 3 winning.

You have no love for Blood Speaker?

Great job the whole idea is very well thought out. One suggestion I would make which seems like an obvious inclusion in mono-black is mutilate.. It's almost like a second damnation most of the time and can also take out indestructible creatures!

Thanks for the suggestions.

Blood speaker is interesting but to tell you the truth I would rather have a real tutor for that kind of mana.

Mutilate is definitely a great card but the beauty of this general is I don't need anymore wraths than I'm already running because my general is essentially a reusable wrath than I can sit behind as a rattlesnake and not even activate him most the time. It frees up a lot of space to just add draw, combos and other stuff.

I was even able to take out 2 terastadons at one point by just waiting til I drew of a Phyrexian Arena and activate with 9 cards in hand. And I would have even been able to take out an eldrazi with all the draw I was holding.

Quote from nutterbutter

Blood speaker is interesting but to tell you the truth I would rather have a real tutor for that kind of mana.

Blood speaker triggers Grave Pact, which is awesome. But you're not running Grave Pact, so then, well, less stellar. Maybe Deathrender is the card for you, then you can sneak a big bastard from your hand into play after you blow up the world with Kagemaro.

Deathrender? Kind of expensive but also interesting. Maybe I'll try it out. Thanks.

I'm also really shocked that you don't run blood speaker in here. While YES real tutors are better as they can get you any card, don't forget blood speaker can keep coming back and thus creates a chain of demons if she goes undisturbed. Not only that but its an awesome combo with the Deathrender as you can just search up a demon and then put it directly into play off the render's ability. (not sure how this stacks, but either way is still good as you will only be paying 6 mana to tutor a demon and put it into play each turn)

I play Demon of Death's Gate in my Demon EHD, but I play many more small creatures that easily sac to pay the alternate cost a la skeleton, bloodghast and breeder. not sure how interesting it would be in here tho, but is a house in my build.

To tell you the truth this deck is relatively competitive in multiplayer. It usually wins by combos after wrathing the board with Kagermaro over and over again. A tutor that can't grab combo pieces is a little hard to justify for me.

I've been debating doing two things with my mono-black Ob-Nixilis deck. As black already has plenty of win conditions inside of it, I had contemplated dropping Nixilis as the boss and using Kagemaro for the exact purpose you are. Always having lots of cards (I run stupid amounts of draw) and wrathing with the general whenever necessary. Seems a lot more useful than a big general.

The other is swapping out my pretty foil swamps for snow-covered ones. I can't justify the $15 purchase though to just not let people benefit from extraplanar lens. My meta isn't super competitive (yet) and I was just curious on what you think the impact would be on the game otherwise. Also, if you do run all the snow covereds, why no scrying sheets? Sure you have plenty of draw but it lets you move past some land draws if you have some free mana.

I came to the same conclusion with my monoblack list that you simply don't need a finisher as a commander (I was using Maga at the time). Given this I tried to find a commander that would help me with some of my weaknesses and I ended up going with Kiku, Night's Flower and have been very impressed. She comes down very early which is nice since MBC decks don't usually have much to do early on, she repeatedly kills many problem commanders which is a much bigger plus than I initially thought and you often don't even need to activate her for her to be effective. Just dropping her turn 2 means the Riku player will probably have to kill her before dropping Riku and this is the same scenario for a shocking number of commanders. She also kills Gaddock Teeg which at least for me is a pretty nice bonus. Lastly you don't need to include any cards because they work well with her, she's just there for the colors so if she gets hindered or whatnot the deck isn't affected.

Scrying Sheets - This card is painfully slow and clunky and the strength of the deck lies not with Cabal Coffers but with the mighty Swamp. Lands need to be incredibly strong to be better than Swamp in MBC and Scrying Sheets is not.

I dunno, winning with Helm/Leyline isn't so exciting, and Contamination a lot of times does nothing. I mean im not telling you how to build your deck, but winning by smashing face with 8/8 flying tramplers seems more fun than just 'I win' combos.

If I get around to it, I'll find my demon edh decklist and share it to show you where I'm coming from.

Quote from slylie

I dunno, winning with Helm/Leyline isn't so exciting, and Contamination a lot of times does nothing. I mean im not telling you how to build your deck, but winning by smashing face with 8/8 flying tramplers seems more fun than just 'I win' combos.

If I get around to it, I'll find my demon edh decklist and share it to show you where I'm coming from.

Difference in playstyles / meta groups I figure. I played the same way for a long time, and I'm starting to turn to the 'other side'. Your 8/8 trampler isn't going to keep that mono blue player from Temple Bell / Mind Over Matter combo'ing you out. Contamination on the other hand does just that, and Helm / Leyline can take someone out of the game immediately. While these may not be "exciting" playstyles for some, in competitive play it may be the only one to retain board control and assure that you come out on top.

Quote from nurse.jason

Difference in playstyles / meta groups I figure. I played the same way for a long time, and I'm starting to turn to the 'other side'. Your 8/8 trampler isn't going to keep that mono blue player from Temple Bell / Mind Over Matter combo'ing you out. Contamination on the other hand does just that, and Helm / Leyline can take someone out of the game immediately. While these may not be "exciting" playstyles for some, in competitive play it may be the only one to retain board control and assure that you come out on top.

I know where you are coming from 100%, I have a MBC Skittles deck that runs the helm combo as well along with lots of discard, tutors, jesters cap effects ect. But generally I carry around 2-3 commander decks at a time and choose which deck to play depending on who I'm playing with. I know the guys at my shop that play broken combo decks and choose the skittles deck if they are sitting at the table. Otherwise I like to grip something that is going to keep me and my 'opponents' entertained.

But yeh nutter if you are trying to keep it competitive as possible I understand why you would prefer the hard tutors. But if you are looking for something a bit more fun the speaker is just that.

Have room to fit in Ob Nixilis?

Quote from nurse.jason

I've been debating doing two things with my mono-black Ob-Nixilis deck. As black already has plenty of win conditions inside of it, I had contemplated dropping Nixilis as the boss and using Kagemaro for the exact purpose you are. Always having lots of cards (I run stupid amounts of draw) and wrathing with the general whenever necessary. Seems a lot more useful than a big general.

I think it's definitely worthwhile to be able to wrath over and over. Add corpse dance and Phyrexian reclamation for more abuse. Used to run Drana as the general but as you said getting to the late game is better than having another finisher as your general.

Quote from nurse.jason

The other is swapping out my pretty foil swamps for snow-covered ones. I can't justify the $15 purchase though to just not let people benefit from extraplanar lens. My meta isn't super competitive (yet) and I was just curious on what you think the impact would be on the game otherwise. Also, if you do run all the snow covereds, why no scrying sheets? Sure you have plenty of draw but it lets you move past some land draws if you have some free mana.

I have thawing glaciers instead. This deck needs the land drops and glaciers reliably provides that. It gets even better with deserted temple. If you don't face much black snow lands may not be worth it.

Quote from nutterbutter

I think it's definitely worthwhile to be able to wrath over and over. Add corpse dance and Phyrexian reclamation for more abuse. Used to run Drana as the general but as you said getting to the late game is better than having another finisher as your general.

I have thawing glaciers instead. This deck needs the land drops and glaciers reliably provides that. It gets even better with deserted temple. If you don't face much black snow lands may not be worth it.

I gave Ob-Nixilis a try last night, and then threw Kagemaro at the helm with a Nixilis tuned deck and gave it a whirl. The control element of the general does surprisingly well. However it seems as if I was missing about ten cards the entire time, and I didn't shuffle too well. I was easily able to keep people from coming at me, but I was missing land drops and completely unable to find my card draw / land / ramp.

I actually run Glaciers + Journeyer's Kite, (and with Nixilis I ran crucible) do you think Crucible + the $100 in fetches is worth it for the ability to just fetch a land from grave? I feel like with the amount of card draw in black it would be seldom that you wouldn't just have a swamp in hand. Or if you get unlucky enough to not get a fetch when you have crucible, it'd just be bad news. Just curious of your thoughts!

Quote from nurse.jason

I gave Ob-Nixilis a try last night, and then threw Kagemaro at the helm with a Nixilis tuned deck and gave it a whirl. The control element of the general does surprisingly well. However it seems as if I was missing about ten cards the entire time, and I didn't shuffle too well. I was easily able to keep people from coming at me, but I was missing land drops and completely unable to find my card draw / land / ramp.

I actually run Glaciers + Journeyer's Kite, (and with Nixilis I ran crucible) do you think Crucible + the $100 in fetches is worth it for the ability to just fetch a land from grave? I feel like with the amount of card draw in black it would be seldom that you wouldn't just have a swamp in hand. Or if you get unlucky enough to not get a fetch when you have crucible, it'd just be bad news. Just curious of your thoughts!

Well I'm lucky that I was drafting during both onslaught and Zendikar so got a set of all the fetches, and really I can't imagine trying to do decks without them.

Having a fetch in the grave and crucible out means (without disruption) never missing a land drop again. I wouldn't even consider not putting a few fetches in a deck with crucible, even if it was mono color. I.e. I play fetches in mono red just to be able to instant speed valukut.

With Nob-Lixus it is the difference of draining them for 3 a turn or 6 a turn,which is pretty huge.

Then again, I'm biased because I own them, but yeh I wouldn't play landfall without fetches.

EDIT: Just realized I missed responding to someone. Sorry if I missed responding to anyone I'm on an iPhone as usual and it can be tedious, cutting and pasting quotes into notepad then trying to fit them here because I can scroll down in here.

Quote from umtiger

Have room to fit in Ob Nixilis?

Looks interesting. Not sure what I would take out and 3 life doesn't seem super great. I was looking for demons when I originally posted this list but I feel the count is pretty good now.

Quote from nurse.jason

I gave Ob-Nixilis a try last night, and then threw Kagemaro at the helm with a Nixilis tuned deck and gave it a whirl. The control element of the general does surprisingly well. However it seems as if I was missing about ten cards the entire time, and I didn't shuffle too well. I was easily able to keep people from coming at me, but I was missing land drops and completely unable to find my card draw / land / ramp.

Missing, meaning you just didnt draw them? That always sucks. Kept people from coming at you, eh? Sounds like a good general to buy you time to combo or Exsanguinate with. Haha. But the land drop thing is the exact reason I run glaciers, that and the synergy with Kagemaro when you return glaciers to hand. That way you can keep your hand full because you're using glaciers rather than dropping lands from your hand.

Quote from nurse.jason

I actually run Glaciers + Journeyer's Kite, (and with Nixilis I ran crucible) do you think Crucible + the $100 in fetches is worth it for the ability to just fetch a land from grave? I feel like with the amount of card draw in black it would be seldom that you wouldn't just have a swamp in hand. Or if you get unlucky enough to not get a fetch when you have crucible, it'd just be bad news. Just curious of your thoughts!

Well it also works with strip mine, wasteland, man lands like Inkmoth nexus(with contamination) or is just insurance against LD. I think if you're going to run crucible it makes sense to run fetches. If you can't afford the expensive ones there's others that bring the land in tapped. 

But I wouldn't run crucible without fetches personally. If it's not built around crucible isn't worth it IMO. And it's more about maintaining as many cards in hand as possible. If you're not playing swamps from your  hand your hand is bigger. Add reliquary tower for even more fun,

Quote from nutterbutter

Missing, meaning you just didnt draw them? That always sucks. Kept people from coming at you, eh? Sounds like a good general to buy you time to combo or Exsanguinate with. Haha. But the land drop thing is the exact reason I run glaciers, that and the synergy with Kagemaro when you return glaciers to hand. That way you can keep your hand full because you're using glaciers rather than dropping lands from your hand.

Yeah I love glaciers. Since I don't have all the fetches, I figured it would be best to run rings of brighthearth to best make use of glaciers and temple. And when I said I was missing about ten cards, I mean just that. I don't own every card for the deck yet, and I tried proxying some things and I guess I missed some stuff, along with forgetting to add cards I won. Made me laugh when I took the deck apart to inspect it.

Anyways, thanks for your advice guys. I think I'm pretty happy with my list now. Just need to find the last 15 or so cards.

So I changed the general, updated the OP and I'm looking for advice. Thank you.

Thank you for the suggestions. Kagemaro in! Suffer the past will be tried as well. Imp's mischief, I'm a little iffy about because I've tried it before and been let down. I guess it depends on who I'm playing with though, because some people pack more targeted spells than others. In my meta steel hellkite is very popular and a major PITA. I figure that's more dangerous than any zombies,werewolves or vampires I see, which I don't see much of at all.