This is a multi-player version of Vish Kal that focuses on life gain/loss and wins through either general damage or knight overrun (credit for the 'knight package' to darcangel as seen in his Teysa EDH deck).
There are several ways to play this deck, depending on your meta, number of players, and opening hand.
Since this deck is supposed to be played multi-player (although it does quite well 1v1) the best strategy is to tutor up Buried Alive to dump Haakon, his fog machine, and one other knight (I like the exemplar) into the 'yard and then keep that wall up. A sac outlet is preferable to prevent Haakon from being exiled, and there are several options in the deck including its commander. Mephidross Vampire+[CARD]Kalastria Highborn
[/CARD] allows you to ping away at their life total with your vampire knights as well.
After several turns during which you should take little to no damage due to the fog machine, it's a good time to go in for the kill with Vish. You'll want some sort of protection (I'll usually have tutored for the Greaves by this point) so he's not tucked, and then start smashing for 10+ life swings every turn. He kills through general damage fairly quickly, and works great with Blade of the Bloodchief (allows you to kill 2 toughness creatures for free or 4 toughness w/ Elesh/Massacre Worm) or Skull Clamp for an extra counter and two cards. Your knights are great sac targets since they'll keep coming back, and Conspiracy+Haakon means you can eat anything without fear of losing it.
Should you lose Vish for some reason or another (looking at you Condemn) you have multiple ways to get him back, or you can use cards like True Conviction and Mirror Entity to win via knight overrun. You can even drop a Sanguine Bond and Exsanguinate or Drain Life to kill several players. If all else fails or someone is going to try and combo out you can kill them at instant speed with False Cure+Beacon of Immortality.
So far this deck has proven very resilient and tough to keep up with, currently I'm looking at tinkering with the mana base/fixing as well as a tad more protection, any suggestions are welcome!
Just making sure you're aware that lifegain can be the wincon itself. Test of Endurance and Felidar Sovereign make it so. But if you do go the lifetotal win route, you'd probably want to focus even more on life gain/link cards.
Angel of Despair is a powerhouse in any BW deck, and any time you've got so much in BW, Deathbringer Liege becomes at least a minor consideration.
Austere Command should be considered as a sweeper as it's so versatile/selective.
I ran Cabal Coffers in all my B/x decks for a long time and ended up taking out of everything except mono-black (where it shines). It ends up being a dead land so often. It takes itself plus 4 swamps before you ever see profit from it over just a basic swamp (at 3 you break even). The rest of the time it's a serious drawback. Just keep an eye on it and see how many times you wished it was another land.
I'm not looking for instant "I win and eveyone else loses" lifegain wins since what will generally happen is everyone else plays for second and I have to sit and watch.
Angel of Despair was in the list but got weeded out as being an over-costed vindicate. With Haakon+Conspiracy, it might still be worth considering but 7 mana is still a huge dump. Might include it just for it's awesome art.
Deathbringer Liege was also in the list but got the axe due to the fact that I generally had to either over-extend or give up card advantage to trigger him. If I need more removal he's near the top of the list.
For some reason I've never really liked Austere Command, I'll try and keep an eye out for the number of times it would be great to have in hand as I play this deck. So far all tests have had no need to sweep much, but I haven't played any token overrun decks either.
Death Grasp is more flavorful and useful than Drain Life, so I'll make that swap, thanks!
I haven't hit Cabal Coffers without having Urborg out yet, but I'll definitely drop it if it's dead. The potential to make some massive life swings with Grasp or Ex is too tempting for me to drop it just yet.
Totally understand about not wanting to win with lifetotal cards.
I would like to add a bit to the consideration of Angel and Austere as it looks like even though they aren't on the starting team, they're still on the roster You've got a few ways to deal with troublesome enchantments, artifacts, and planeswalkers, but not a lot, and I think it's unfair to look at Angel as an over-costed vindicate. She's a repeatable vindicate on a 5/5 flyer. Even more repeatable with Haakon + Conspiracy as you pointed out. Just something to keep in mind as you tune the deck.
But anyway...
Welcome to Orzhova! It looks like an interesting deck to play, and you can see from my sig banner and decks that I have an affinity for the colors. I'd be interested to hear from you how the deck evolves/works out. I'm always looking out for new ideas for my own.
I find this build fascinating. Your general costs 7 mana but the deck might actually be really good. The knight package is particularly brilliant, especially when you can play Crib Swap from the graveyard.
What I think this deck really needs is to go all-in. Some card choices feels like they really distract from the overall cohesion of the deck. This deck is fundamentally about casting support creatures and killing opposing creatures. I mean, sure it's cute if you can Beacon of Immortality + False Cure someone to death, but usually Beacon is just a dead draw, as is False Cure.
You have so much solid board control and card advantage that it seems a shame to just throw away draws by topdecking minor lifegain effects like Kalastria Highborn. I mean, once you're in position for that card to be good, you've already won the game.
There's a lot of 1-for-1 trades, when you could be running more 2-for-1 trades. Keep in mind that just having creatures is really good for your general. Nekrataal is better than Condemn, for example, because he's a creature. In order for a non-creature removal spell to make the cut, it has to be amazing. Wrath of God and Grave Pact count. Vindicate does not.
You're also based around a 7 mana general and you have lots of stuff in the 5 to 7 cost range, but basically no mana acceleration. I think you'll find this deck runs much smoother when the standard package of 9 mana artifacts, including Thran Dynamo and Worn Powerstone. Sun Titan is pretty nuts on turn 3!
Speaking of Sun Titan, this deck would really benefit from 7 fetch lands (and the Scrubland I'm sure you don't own). It lets you play tricks with Weathered Wayfarer too, by activating a fetch and using Wayfarer in response. And the Divining Top won't be worth playing without 7 fetches anyway.
I also think you have a bit much tutoring. Five mana to tutor is really not what a control deck is interested in, and you're never buying it back.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I think the Knight package is cool, but I'm just not sure how good it is in practice. Seems like you're running a bunch of dinky, sub-par creatures that don't really become awesome until you have Haakon going on. If you really want to focus on Haakon, then I do suggest you zone in a bit more on trying to find Conspiracy, although I personally think it's folly to build around one card when it isn't your general (and also kinda of hard to set up). Entomb should also be included if you wish to emphasize Haakon; but once again, I personally am not a big fan of it. And I'd be speaking on High Flight's behalf, but I suppose Demonic Collusion's double purpose is to more reliably dump him into the yard.
I do also agree with tedv that this deck could use a bit more focus. Some of the mini-combos you have going on don't help your gameplan. I'd be more efficient to run more creatures and acceleration to help oil your engines. I'm a huge fan of Mother of Runes and Devoted Caretaker though, so kudos on those guys.
I'm going to be building a Vish Kal list myself, but probably more goodstuff.dec with a hand disruption, removal, reanimation (particularly ones that can steal your opponents' creatures), and geddons. I'm not sure it's the most optimal way to build the deck, but I don't want to heavily rely on Vish Kal shenanigans either. Any thoughts from the others here?
The main idea is to hit buried alive and drop Haakon and co. into the graveyard. Once that's in place, it's fairly easy to stay alive (I've survived 2 boardwipes easily by simply recasting the exemplar both times and fogging the mess out of anything else). That being said, I love the fact that I almost always have a tutor in my hand to hit it, or anything else the situation may call for. I've actually already used the buyback once to dump Haakon within the few test rounds I've played. Also, the false cure/beacon insta-kill combo is really easy to assemble with this many tutors, both times so far that I've top decked one I had a tutor in hand waiting to grab the other piece and knock that particularly rockin' player out. I do see what you have suggested about making it run smoother by cutting under-performing cards, I've already added 5 mana rocks since posting so I'll update the list soon when I have it where I want it.
The problem is that an instant kill combo for one player isn't very useful in EDH unless you're already winning. If you're behind, it just removes one player who wasn't trying to kill you anyway. You'd rather have draw cards that turn you from being behind to ahead.
On the other hand, if you're already ahead, you could just draw cards that give you even more board position and win that way. Beacon + False Cure is good sometimes and bad other times. Why not play cards that are good most of the time and only bad occasionally?
I'm not saying the combo is bad in your deck. I'm saying that other cards would be better. Like Sisay's Ring is a good card, except that Everflowing Chalice is just better and it's really rare that a deck wants both. If your deck had Sisay's Ring, I'd tell you to cut it even if you talked about how great it was when it let you cast 7 cost spells on turn 5. Just because a card is helpful doesn't mean it should be in your deck.
I strongly support the Entomb idea as well, as Entomb for Haakon seems like it solves a large part of your problems.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
And just a quick thought, you said you dont like the angel of dispair thought .... but have u looked at it in the sense that your running a sac engine (your general) and your running mimic vat.... turning the creature into a 3 cost .... which is equal to vindicates cost. and you can do it at EOT of someones turn, attack with it your turn, and then sac it down to buff vish kal, all for 3 mana at eot so no mana outta pocket on your turn... seems synergetic to me. Just my thought.
why is Felidar Sovereign legal in EDH? you start with 40 Life according to official rules my source is http://mtgcommander.net/rules.php in the Play tab. My playgroup has been discussing this very kind of Win condition. cards that say "you win the game if you have 40 life" means that if a player never loses life its an auto win pretty much. I don't know everyone's opinion on this matter but it seems silly to me. I know Its easy to get rid of but with white being good at stopping damage and a good set of artifacts like Lightning greaves or a Mask of avacyn
This is a multi-player version of Vish Kal that focuses on life gain/loss and wins through either general damage or knight overrun (credit for the 'knight package' to darcangel as seen in his Teysa EDH deck).
1 Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
1 Blade of the Bloodchief
Knights!
1 Kinsbaile Cavalier
1 Pentarch Paladin
1 Knight-Captain of Eos
1 Knight Exemplar
1 Mirror Entity
1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
1 Conspiracy
1 Crib Swap
Card Quality
1 Corpse Connoisseur
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Demonic Collusion
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Liliana Vess
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Buried Alive
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Land Tax
Card Advantage
1 Syphon Mind
1 Skullclamp
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Ancient Craving
1 Sun Titan
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Bloodghast
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Debtors' Knell
1 Oversold Cemetery
1 Mimic Vat
Can't Touch This
1 Devoted Caretaker
1 Mother of Runes
1 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Lightning Greaves
Sweeps/Spot Removal
1 Wrath of God
1 Damnation
1 Phyrexian Rebirth
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Grave Pact
1 Vindicate
1 Condemn
1 Swords to Plowshares
I Drink Your Milkshake!
1 Exsanguinate
1 Death Grasp
1 True Conviction
1 Bloodchief Ascension
1 Sanguine Bond
1 Sorin Markov
C-c-c-combo!
1 Mephidross Vampire
1 Kalastria Highborn
1 Beacon of Immortality
1 False Cure
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Phyrexian Processor
Mmm Mmm Mana
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 High Market
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Fetid Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Kor Haven
1 Strip Mine
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Marsh Flats
7 Plains
11 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Market
There are several ways to play this deck, depending on your meta, number of players, and opening hand.
Since this deck is supposed to be played multi-player (although it does quite well 1v1) the best strategy is to tutor up Buried Alive to dump Haakon, his fog machine, and one other knight (I like the exemplar) into the 'yard and then keep that wall up. A sac outlet is preferable to prevent Haakon from being exiled, and there are several options in the deck including its commander. Mephidross Vampire+[CARD]Kalastria Highborn
[/CARD] allows you to ping away at their life total with your vampire knights as well.
After several turns during which you should take little to no damage due to the fog machine, it's a good time to go in for the kill with Vish. You'll want some sort of protection (I'll usually have tutored for the Greaves by this point) so he's not tucked, and then start smashing for 10+ life swings every turn. He kills through general damage fairly quickly, and works great with Blade of the Bloodchief (allows you to kill 2 toughness creatures for free or 4 toughness w/ Elesh/Massacre Worm) or Skull Clamp for an extra counter and two cards. Your knights are great sac targets since they'll keep coming back, and Conspiracy+Haakon means you can eat anything without fear of losing it.
Should you lose Vish for some reason or another (looking at you Condemn) you have multiple ways to get him back, or you can use cards like True Conviction and Mirror Entity to win via knight overrun. You can even drop a Sanguine Bond and Exsanguinate or Drain Life to kill several players. If all else fails or someone is going to try and combo out you can kill them at instant speed with False Cure+Beacon of Immortality.
So far this deck has proven very resilient and tough to keep up with, currently I'm looking at tinkering with the mana base/fixing as well as a tad more protection, any suggestions are welcome!
-Drain Life
+Death Grasp Removes the 'only black mana' clause, thanks Blackjack68!
GVorinclex Control & ConquerG
BWVish Kal: Drinkin' Your MilkshakeBW
GVorinclex Control & ConquerG
BWVish Kal: Drinkin' Your MilkshakeBW
Angel of Despair is a powerhouse in any BW deck, and any time you've got so much in BW, Deathbringer Liege becomes at least a minor consideration.
Austere Command should be considered as a sweeper as it's so versatile/selective.
Death Grasp also goes well with the plan.
I ran Cabal Coffers in all my B/x decks for a long time and ended up taking out of everything except mono-black (where it shines). It ends up being a dead land so often. It takes itself plus 4 swamps before you ever see profit from it over just a basic swamp (at 3 you break even). The rest of the time it's a serious drawback. Just keep an eye on it and see how many times you wished it was another land.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Angel of Despair was in the list but got weeded out as being an over-costed vindicate. With Haakon+Conspiracy, it might still be worth considering but 7 mana is still a huge dump. Might include it just for it's awesome art.
Deathbringer Liege was also in the list but got the axe due to the fact that I generally had to either over-extend or give up card advantage to trigger him. If I need more removal he's near the top of the list.
For some reason I've never really liked Austere Command, I'll try and keep an eye out for the number of times it would be great to have in hand as I play this deck. So far all tests have had no need to sweep much, but I haven't played any token overrun decks either.
Death Grasp is more flavorful and useful than Drain Life, so I'll make that swap, thanks!
I haven't hit Cabal Coffers without having Urborg out yet, but I'll definitely drop it if it's dead. The potential to make some massive life swings with Grasp or Ex is too tempting for me to drop it just yet.
GVorinclex Control & ConquerG
BWVish Kal: Drinkin' Your MilkshakeBW
I would like to add a bit to the consideration of Angel and Austere as it looks like even though they aren't on the starting team, they're still on the roster You've got a few ways to deal with troublesome enchantments, artifacts, and planeswalkers, but not a lot, and I think it's unfair to look at Angel as an over-costed vindicate. She's a repeatable vindicate on a 5/5 flyer. Even more repeatable with Haakon + Conspiracy as you pointed out. Just something to keep in mind as you tune the deck.
But anyway...
Welcome to Orzhova! It looks like an interesting deck to play, and you can see from my sig banner and decks that I have an affinity for the colors. I'd be interested to hear from you how the deck evolves/works out. I'm always looking out for new ideas for my own.
Cheers
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
What I think this deck really needs is to go all-in. Some card choices feels like they really distract from the overall cohesion of the deck. This deck is fundamentally about casting support creatures and killing opposing creatures. I mean, sure it's cute if you can Beacon of Immortality + False Cure someone to death, but usually Beacon is just a dead draw, as is False Cure.
You have so much solid board control and card advantage that it seems a shame to just throw away draws by topdecking minor lifegain effects like Kalastria Highborn. I mean, once you're in position for that card to be good, you've already won the game.
There's a lot of 1-for-1 trades, when you could be running more 2-for-1 trades. Keep in mind that just having creatures is really good for your general. Nekrataal is better than Condemn, for example, because he's a creature. In order for a non-creature removal spell to make the cut, it has to be amazing. Wrath of God and Grave Pact count. Vindicate does not.
You're also based around a 7 mana general and you have lots of stuff in the 5 to 7 cost range, but basically no mana acceleration. I think you'll find this deck runs much smoother when the standard package of 9 mana artifacts, including Thran Dynamo and Worn Powerstone. Sun Titan is pretty nuts on turn 3!
Speaking of Sun Titan, this deck would really benefit from 7 fetch lands (and the Scrubland I'm sure you don't own). It lets you play tricks with Weathered Wayfarer too, by activating a fetch and using Wayfarer in response. And the Divining Top won't be worth playing without 7 fetches anyway.
I also think you have a bit much tutoring. Five mana to tutor is really not what a control deck is interested in, and you're never buying it back.
Here's what I see as the non-land cuts:
And here's what I would add:
Here are the land swaps:
-4 Plains
-4 Swamp
+1 Secluded Steppe
+1 Barren Moor
+6 Fetches
I do also agree with tedv that this deck could use a bit more focus. Some of the mini-combos you have going on don't help your gameplan. I'd be more efficient to run more creatures and acceleration to help oil your engines. I'm a huge fan of Mother of Runes and Devoted Caretaker though, so kudos on those guys.
I'm going to be building a Vish Kal list myself, but probably more goodstuff.dec with a hand disruption, removal, reanimation (particularly ones that can steal your opponents' creatures), and geddons. I'm not sure it's the most optimal way to build the deck, but I don't want to heavily rely on Vish Kal shenanigans either. Any thoughts from the others here?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
GVorinclex Control & ConquerG
BWVish Kal: Drinkin' Your MilkshakeBW
On the other hand, if you're already ahead, you could just draw cards that give you even more board position and win that way. Beacon + False Cure is good sometimes and bad other times. Why not play cards that are good most of the time and only bad occasionally?
I'm not saying the combo is bad in your deck. I'm saying that other cards would be better. Like Sisay's Ring is a good card, except that Everflowing Chalice is just better and it's really rare that a deck wants both. If your deck had Sisay's Ring, I'd tell you to cut it even if you talked about how great it was when it let you cast 7 cost spells on turn 5. Just because a card is helpful doesn't mean it should be in your deck.
I strongly support the Entomb idea as well, as Entomb for Haakon seems like it solves a large part of your problems.
cradle of vitality
reya dawnbringer
deathrender (maybe)
well of lost dreams
reborn hero
cheers
B Anowon, the ruin sage
G Azusa, lost but Seeking