I have a couple questions about your deck. You state that it is competitive, but you run a pretty low amount of acceleration (I know partly due to not having any basics really limits options). However, do you think your deck performs better with all those duals and fetches and no basics, or if you put in say, 2 of each basic + cards like Cultivate, Yavimaya Elder, etc.? I would also suggest Noble Hierarch. Its been my experience when playing against other competitive decks, the player that ramps the fastest wins 75% of the time, which is why I am concerned about your mana acceleration.
Additionally, how would your deck fare if Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon came out? Only answer I see is if Scion is already out, swing as Steel Hellkite, x=3. Besides that, I don't know what you could do.
Expedition Map seems like an auto-include in a deck with key lands such as yours.
Very glad to see you are running Global Ruin, it is nothing less than amazing in 5 color builds (with the right land base of course).
I have a couple questions about your deck. You state that it is competitive, but you run a pretty low amount of acceleration (I know partly due to not having any basics really limits options). However, do you think your deck performs better with all those duals and fetches and no basics, or if you put in say, 2 of each basic + cards like Cultivate, Yavimaya Elder, etc.? I would also suggest Noble Hierarch. Its been my experience when playing against other competitive decks, the player that ramps the fastest wins 75% of the time, which is why I am concerned about your mana acceleration.
Additionally, how would your deck fare if Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon came out? Only answer I see is if Scion is already out, swing as Steel Hellkite, x=3. Besides that, I don't know what you could do.
Expedition Map seems like an auto-include in a deck with key lands such as yours.
Very glad to see you are running Global Ruin, it is nothing less than amazing in 5 color builds (with the right land base of course).
Overall the deck looks pretty strong though, good job. And good choice in generals!
Hey!
Thanks for the reply.
To answer your concerns, I'll try to address each briefly:
Blood Moon is not seen in my Meta thankfully, so I doubt that'd be an issue. Plus, whoever played it would be gunned for immediately as most decks are tri-color plus. While this may be; if it were to enter the meta I have signets / Relic for colored mana for pulse, deed, mortify, and other bits of removal; basics could be in the side, but I'm against them (See below)
Boseiju, Who shelters All is a board option (we get 10 card boards) that remains there until I have a blue matchup, in which case it goes in 99% of the time.
Expedition map doesn't really seem that good here, as I have all the fixing I'd need and it only puts to hand; I'd rather play Sylvan Scrying and even then I think I'd prefer another source of accel.
Noble Hierarch , while good in 1v1 matches, often dies to collateral damage and I feel as if the accel boost it offers isn't relevant most times or worth the slot.
On running Basics: I'm pretty against the idea as there are times when running just a few slows down my color progression very fast, and the benefit of occasionally having cultivate seems weak. I'd rather run more nonbasic accel, which I'm sure it's out there I just didn't have time to think of it last night. I'm going to do a bit of research this afternoon and attempt to find some more.
Global Ruin Is a house and I love it. No one else likes me after I play it though ^.^"
So, I'm normally a 1v1 player and my skills at building for multiplayer are questionable at best. I'm trying to build a strong competitive Scion of the Ur-Dragon build for a field of pods of four, and any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Hey Rageinuyasha, have you checked out the Scion of the Ur-Dragon list in the 1v1 forums?
I've been playing Scion for a while with the Hermit Druid kill, and it can be very strong. It's a very different deck than what you've posted here, but it has a ton of "I Win" hands that can't be ignored.
If your opponents are running lots of countermagic, it can be very bothersome however and I wouldn't recommend it based on your meta, especially in a multiplayer environment.
Hey! Blood Moon is not seen in my Meta thankfully, so I doubt that'd be an issue. Plus, whoever played it would be gunned for immediately as most decks are tri-color plus.
What decks specifically are in your meta, and how competitive are they? You mentioned that a lot of decks are tri-colored -- a lot of tri colored generals have very different approaches to the game (I mean, look at all the different ways you can play Sharuum, for instance).
Scion can take a bunch of different routes (obviously, as it's a 5 color general), although it might help us a bit more if we get more information (be detailed please!) on what you're running up against.
I've been playing Scion for a while with the Hermit Druid kill, and it can be very strong. It's a very different deck than what you've posted here, but it has a ton of "I Win" hands that can't be ignored.
If your opponents are running lots of countermagic, it can be very bothersome however and I wouldn't recommend it based on your meta, especially in a multiplayer environment.
Which leads me to my next question...
What decks specifically are in your meta, and how competitive are they? You mentioned that a lot of decks are tri-colored -- a lot of tri colored generals have very different approaches to the game (I mean, look at all the different ways you can play Sharuum, for instance).
Scion can take a bunch of different routes (obviously, as it's a 5 color general), although it might help us a bit more if we get more information (be detailed please!) on what you're running up against.
Hey,
I'm in a hypercompetitive meta with decks like Arcum, Sharuum, Azami, Jhoira, Sisay, Oona, and a few others (Adun Oakenshield, Uril, the Mistalker, Numot the Devestator, and Skittles all come to mind.) Essentially people tweaking 1v1 combo decks to try and make them multiplayer ready. The meta is mostly combo, with a few aggro decks running amuck, though they're rarely seen. Most of these combo decks are eerily similar to the compendium lists or those run by a few of the star members here; though there is the occasional homebrew that is decent as well.
As far as Hermit Druid Combo, I tried it in multiplayer but it's far too risky in my opinion, as if any opponent has removal you're not in the best spot to deal with three others who realize you can combo out as soon as you're set up. I tried that route already, and it didn't work lol (you'll note I was one of the first posters in the thread you linked.)
I'm trying to make something less combo dependant that simply always has effects to do, and doesn't run out of steam in multiplayer as many combo decks do.
Also, there are bigger worries than Blood Moon... say, Ruination? I know no one in the area runs it as of this moment, but that's no reason not to prepare for it.
BRG Xira Arien BRG UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG WRG Mayael the Anima WRG WB Triad of Fates WB BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR WR Aurelia the Warleader WR WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
As an aside to someone who I might play with on a regular basis....Piss off for the three visits comment
That said, I'm digging the Mwonvoli Acid Moss , Always love an early reap and sow.
Also, I think my first two cuts are going to be the ultimatums. Having the correct colors is often difficult and unless I plan ahead of time frankly annoying. Anyone else have any ideas for huge spells that could take their place, or just better cards? My current thoughts are Sword of Body and Mind and Hellkite Charger for infinite attack steps.
There's also the Hive Mind / Pacts way to go, but that seems to janky.
Edit: Just got a three visits just to spite Destinytrigger. Let it be held for the record.
As an aside to someone who I might play with on a regular basis....Piss off for the three visits comment
That said, I'm digging the Mwonvoli Acid Moss , Always love an early reap and sow.
Also, I think my first two cuts are going to be the ultimatums. Having the correct colors is often difficult and unless I plan ahead of time frankly annoying. Anyone else have any ideas for huge spells that could take their place, or just better cards? My current thoughts are Sword of Body and Mind and Hellkite Charger for infinite attack steps.
There's also the Hive Mind / Pacts way to go, but that seems to janky.
Edit: Just got a three visits just to spite Destinytrigger. Let it be held for the record.
Meh. Something something draw power for Cruel and something something Austere Command for Violence. Or switch one of those for Acid-Moss/Three Visits.
And how does that spite me!? I told you to get it, and now you got one! Getting one and then not running it, THAT's spiting me
Sword's not a bad idea either. Pacts is. Just name the right sword next time.
BRG Xira Arien BRG UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG WRG Mayael the Anima WRG WB Triad of Fates WB BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR WR Aurelia the Warleader WR WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
Meh. Something something draw power for Cruel and something something Austere Command for Violence. Or switch one of those for Acid-Moss/Three Visits.
And how does that spite me!? I told you to get it, and now you got one! Getting one and then not running it, THAT's spiting me
Sword's not a bad idea either. Pacts is. Just name the right sword next time.
Lol, spaced on that. So the card going in are Sword of Feast and Famine and Three Visits for now, I think that hellkite charger is just a little too janky at the moment...maybe if I run more ways to throw it back in my deck if I draw it or something.
In testing this deck tonight, I found that my mana curve is still way too high. I'm going to be lowering it, as I just got massacred being stuck with a hand with no drops before turn 8, after my phyrexian arena was destroyed, and I proceeded not to hit land. Seems bad.
Edit: The deck underwent a massive change, losing a ton of its dragons and replacing them with cheap removal and draw power. Also, when scanning through cards I managed to see shapesharer, and despite not testing it yet the possibilities are truly horrifying. Attack with Scion, after no blocks are declared morph into shapesharer into blightsteel colossus or whatever other silly thing is on the board, or make scion into a primeval titan or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre , etc.
In testing this deck tonight, I found that my mana curve is still way too high. I'm going to be lowering it, as I just got massacred being stuck with a hand with no drops before turn 8, after my phyrexian arena was destroyed, and I proceeded not to hit land. Seems bad.
Edit: The deck underwent a massive change, losing a ton of its dragons and replacing them with cheap removal and draw power. Also, when scanning through cards I managed to see shapesharer, and despite not testing it yet the possibilities are truly horrifying. Attack with Scion, after no blocks are declared morph into shapesharer into blightsteel colossus or whatever other silly thing is on the board, or make scion into a primeval titan or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre , etc.
I wouldn't cut too much of your high-end stuff in multiplayer. It's important that you can always stay the big man at the table. As long as you're not swinging at everyone equally, you won't have everyone hating you. Just pick your most threatening target and attack him relentlessly so the other two people won't screw with you too much. Just make sure you have instant speed "stoppers" to handle everyone else, like Swords to Plowshares, or Dismantling Blow.
Shapesharer is a very sweet card and a great addition.
If you're area is combo, pack spot removal for whatever they're comboing out with, it will help more than counterspells will in your kind of deck. Artifact destruction if they're comboing out with artifacts, enchantment removal if they're using enchantments, etc. I find it's much better to telegraph to your opponents that you're a proactive player and then wreck them with a well placed Swords to Plowshares.
You have a 10 card sideboard too, so perhaps you can add a lot of spot removal there (as color hosers are pretty bad in Scion) and board it in depending on who is at the table.
I wouldn't cut too much of your high-end stuff in multiplayer. It's important that you can always stay the big man at the table. As long as you're not swinging at everyone equally, you won't have everyone hating you. Just pick your most threatening target and attack him relentlessly so the other two people won't screw with you too much. Just make sure you have instant speed "stoppers" to handle everyone else, like Swords to Plowshares, or Dismantling Blow.
Shapesharer is a very sweet card and a great addition.
If you're area is combo, pack spot removal for whatever they're comboing out with, it will help more than counterspells will in your kind of deck. Artifact destruction if they're comboing out with artifacts, enchantment removal if they're using enchantments, etc. I find it's much better to telegraph to your opponents that you're a proactive player and then wreck them with a well placed Swords to Plowshares.
You have a 10 card sideboard too, so perhaps you can add a lot of spot removal there (as color hosers are pretty bad in Scion) and board it in depending on who is at the table.
Fair enough, perhaps I should simply change the threat density of my package instead of moving towards the oath route ~ I'm used to 1v1 and don't encounter politics too much...I'm not the best with them. That said, What threats shall I include in that case? I thought about hellkite chargersword of feast and famine, but that seems a little too easily disrupted for my taste.
Tainted strike could be amusing as an instant kill with dragon tyrant, but do you think it's enough to get me hated off the board? On that note, I could use it to turn my opponents swinging at eachother into lethal damage quicker...I like that idea actually.
Edit: This list was changed to include tainted strike, and begin to lean more towards a combo / aggro build with the inclusion of some of the more aggro dragons, in addition to Niv Mizzet for Ophidian Eye shennanigans.
Up for a month of inactivity and a completely new deck design. It's been testing really well, and the only two weak slots in my opinion are those of cultivate and shapesharer. While sharer occasionally wins games, he appears winmore and cultivate loses it's effectiveness when I only run two basics. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt take their places during matches when I can play them...but other then that, I'm just looking for new ideas for the deck. Any suggestions guys?
Don't know your budget, but you are running expensive cards so, i recommend adding Diamond Valley (if you can get one) and cutting Dance of the death and Animate Death. Both die to your own Pernicious Deed, Austere Command (or atleast you don't want to destroy at same time your opponents enchantment when you have something animated) and your opponents enchantment removal. I would suggest Exhume or/and Reanimate on their place. Have you already tested Praetor's Grasp much? Has it been good or maybe win-more?
Niv Mizzet / Ophidian Eye is incredible. Simply put, if I get ophidian eye I have (2) win the game with my general, or worst to worst I force my opponents removal. Niv by himself is still an ok draw, as it lets me ping off small creatures and acts as a second phyrexian arena.
Diamond Valley is ultimately irrelevant, as the lifegain is very little and I'm not running a sacrificial deck
Animate Dead / Dance of the Dead have both tested better then exhume and reanimate in testing. Exhume generally provides my opponents too much advantage and reanimate came out to cost too much life when I wanted to revive my typical targets (Nicol Bolas, Karrthus, etc.) chances are if they're on the field, I don't have to worry about deeding or austere. Plus, all my removal is controlled and I'm going to waste the same amount of resources with exhume or reanimate as I am with animate / dance.
Praetor's Grasp is far from winmore. Worst to worst it steals an accelerant, best to best I simply win as soon as I cast it. At 3 mana, it's anything but winmore.
I don't agree with you about Diamond valley but we can both do what we want Couple another question / suggestion:
Have you considered adding Mana Drain? Another card what i have seen in scion list's and running by my self is Scroll Rack. I think you necessary haven't got enought dragons to shuffle away with it? And i would like to hear how there have working for you:
I'm wondering is Recurring Insight needed when you are running Fact or Fiction, Phyrexian Arena + Sylvan Library (+ Niv-mizzet if you can count him). Reiterate and Wild Ricochet recuires you to leave mana open to use them, and still they need decent target to do something. I mean could it be better to run some spells in their slots what ALWAYS do something, and won't be depending about other spells?
Gotta put your list together without Grim Tutor and Imperial Seal (don't own either one) and test it out
Again, to go in order:
Mana Drain - Was in the list initially, but it turned out to be pretty weak, as it was reactive and the only thing it really did was net me mana as a 1 shot effect. There was no way of grabbing it from my deck when I needed it, and it was very random.
Scroll Rack - Again, was in my initial list but I don't run anywhere near enough targets to really worry about having to shuffle things from my hand back in. Also, other then that purpose it's pretty dead most of the time.
Recurring Insight - Is simply broken in this format. It normally reads "Draw at minimum 5, then draw at minimum 4" though more times then not it actually nets a full 13-14 cards for 6 mana.
Myojin of Night's Reach - This card wins the game if it resolves. Assuming you're strategic about it, you just wait till the end of target disliked opponents draw step and activate, causing all your opponents to pitch their hands and leaving you in a very advantageous board position.
Reiterate - Generally, I love the card, but it does have some flaws. Sure, I have to keep 3 mana open (Or 6 if I can afford to, which admittedly doesn't really happen till late game) but when my opponent tries to genesis wave for a ton, or they try and do something else like that, it's ALWAYS nice to have and it's better then fork simply because late game the buyback is completely relevant. Also, it can be used with my own blatant thievery, things like that for simply grabbing backbreaking board position.
Wild Ricochet - Essentially the same as Reiterate, except that it's a one shot that normally gives me two copies of the spell. It's really nice when someone tries to mind twist or decimate and you have a quick two more to throw at them. That said, this is the next weakest slot in the deck for requiring you to leave 4 mana open and I could easily see it being cut long before anything else.
As far as boards are concerned - Generals are presented at tournaments, then we can board in before the match starts. Reliquary Tower takes Boseiju, Who Shelters All 's slot when not up against blue, or it will occasionally replace another land depending on if i need the draw retension. Additionally (On Recurring Insight), we generally don't need to worry about having too many cards in our hand after we use it, since our early game plan is ramp and we'll be short on cards anyway; then we use the cars we draw the following turn with our ramped mana, and we might end up a card or two over. In that case, you pitch dragons and or things you want in your graveyard for reanimation effects, or pitch lands.
- It Refills your hand late game
- It nets a few cards mid game if need be
- With Mana Reflection / Wake, generally it nets more then you would think
- With Mana Reflection / Grim Monolith, it gives me an instant kill. This is key, because when I Niv Mizzet / Ophidian Eye, I can only kill 2 people at full life, so I need an alternate way to kill the remaining weakest link (Generally, without reliquary tower I keep a hand with Patriarch's Bidding, Grim Monolith, a Mana Reflection, Removal, and Bant Charm.)
Strip Mine - This is banned locally, though I throw it in during casual games occasionally.
More questions have stir. Do you feel that Living Death and Patriarch's Bidding are needed? Just thinking that in "traditional" scion-build there are all creatures almost dragons, and there bidding is better obviously, but have they been enough good still with current creature suite? I see, that Bidding can still be very good when you have scion out, and have used it couple times and then using bidding to animate fattys.
Have you considered adding Victimize? It would be good with Bladewing the Risen, you could sac Scion to bring back Bladewing and another fatty, and bladewing would then return Scion back in play.
And has Sarkhan the Mad being as good as it looks on paper? I guess there is same thing, that with bidding - would be even more better with moaaar dragons
Hey! I don't have a lot of time, but i'll address what I can, and edit more later:
Living Death / Bidding -> They're as good as in any traditional scion build. I get Nicol Bolas / Karrthus and maybe tyrant or something, and that's enough to wipe out a hand, and kill another player generally. Worst to worst, bidding limits my opponents recursion and living death doubles as a damnation depending. I like them here.
Victimize -> This card is very dependent on me having other creatures on the field, and I feel like it's just not that good here. For what you said, it requires me to run bladewing who also isn't the best; I don't need to put more overcosting cards in my deck, I'm trying to keep my upper end CMC to a minimum. Victimize is also highly dependant on my yard at the time, and the creatures come in tapped. Overall, not a fan. It just seems worse then the above two slots
Sarkhan the Mad -> Man this guy is awesome. He's a draw engine, but his main purpose is tricks with scion. Activation Scion, become Nicol Bolas, use Sarkhan's Ultimate, Target player discards there hand and takes 7, then swing at another player and they discard their hand and take 7. It's pretty brutal. He's also removal, on top of all else!
A buddy of mine has found Brainstorm to be excelent. He runs a few more utility dragons than you do but he uses it to push dragons back into the deck and tutor for them that turn. I know you already talked briefly on Scroll Rack but Brainstorm is a very fast filter effect that is rarely bad when a deck shuffles as much as Scion can.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
That's something i haven't even thought of and it seems quite brutal indeed. I guess that draw engine works best with SDT or othertimes when you know what you have lying on top of library otherwise it could too easily kill Sarkhan for one extra card.
I also found that you are not running Enlightened Tutor, but i'm pretty sure it goes on Imperial Seal's place when not having that available because of price tag. Tutor seems to find necessary pieces to combo out with niv and finding other answers.
You don't also run Academy Rector, do you find that it's too vulnerable to RFG effects or you don't run lands or other sacrificing effects to get full value of it?
You're right about Enlightened Tutor; it's just worse then imp seal or grim here. Your opponent knowing what you grab is just too much pain for enchantments / artifacts.
Academy Rector isn't run because I don't have enough ways to accurately remove it myself, and it has been a dead drop on turn 4 before where any of my other turn four drops are better. It's not like I'm playing sliver queen and can instantly combo off with it, either.
To address the Brainstorm comment; I thought about it but the truth is I never really need to shuffle dragons back in, and the chance of drawing a dragon and brainstorm in the same hand and early game circumstance is rare. Not to mention I would virtually never tutor for brainstorm over another card, so it doesn't work in that way either. Brainstorm is a fine card by itself, but it just can't really edge out anything that's already in the deck in my opinion, at least not in this format.
Hello, couple question again has rised. What's your opinion about Conspiracy? You could be able to fetch your other non-dragon fatties with scion when needed. Or do you just prefer hardcast them and be able to use them more than one turn?
Another question about Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and Ophidian Eye. Have you ever been that situation that you would want to shuffle your hand to library to kill more players with Niv? You can kill now max 2 players if they are at 40 life and maybe more sometimes. Thinking that if you add Conspiracy you could fetch Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre or similar what would allow you to shuffle your graveyard so you could use Niv to kill whole table in single turn. That would recuire some discard outlet that would work but still. That would also help you dodge gravehate if your playgroup plays that? I know that you have alternative win-cons too but that's just suggestion
Conspiracy was tested and is often winmore with the deck. Generally, the condition of having scion on the field, an enchantment, and an activation without a killspell in my meta is rare. Additionally, it forces me to run either more bombs that aren't as streamlined or focus on what I have as 1 shots, which isn't ideal and ends up leaving me short on creatures / resources. Not a fan.
Ophidian Eye + Niv Mizzet - I have been in the position countless times that you're describing. What you miss, however, is that you kill two players, have one remaining (the weakest amongst them) and you just drew 80 cards. You simply just set yourself up with godcombo with protection next turn, or a patriarch's bidding for the win with boseiju backup. Either way, you're pretty much guarenteed a win once you grip that many cards. Even if you don't need boseiju, dropping reliquary tower and keeping all those cards lets you often win instantaneously. I know you're just suggesting stuff, but this is all stuff that has been tested and worked through
I like your deck and its where my own Scion deck is heading as I finally got my hands on some dual lands. I noticed you only run Ophidian Eye, is it for its flash value? I run Curiosity and Keen Sense on top of Ophidian Eye as backups to a Niv Mizzet win or even as a way to get more draw in odd situations, placing it on an opponents creature when I desperately need draw, etc.
I also noticed you don't run Wheel of Sun and Moon which has been a beast in my Scion deck, allowing dragons to be recurred multiple times has locked some games down, especially with Nicol Bolas running mad and the redundancy it causes with the Niv Mizzet win.
Also I don't know where you ended up in the Brainstorm recommendation, but it also serves to help you trigger the Niv combo the same turn you play Scion, giving it more of an unexpected early jump. Normally you have to get Scion to survive a turn to tap him, now you can force the draw and Niv activation all in one turn.
Never thought of the Sarkhan interaction, have to work that into my deck.
I thought they may have been left over from a previous build, with only 5 dragons and no conspiracy, it seems Patriarch's bidding would be pretty lack luster, turning Scion into Nicol every turn or multiple attempts to combo with Niv seems a lot more useful.
Especially with all of these tutors, you can replay the same sorcery/instant multiple times as well if you can keep fetching it out.
It would however shut down the crucible route while it was out.
Here's my Multiplayer Scion of the Ur-Dragon Build:
Edit: Revival after how many months I don't know!
1x Azorius Signet
1x Boros Signet
1x Chrome Mox
1x Fellwar Stone
1x Golgari Signet
1x Gruul Signet
1x Izzet Signet
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Diamond
1x Orzhov Signet
1x Rakdos Signet
1x Selesyna Signet
1x Simic Signet
1x Sol Ring
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Primeval Titan
1x Farseek
1x Nature's Lore
1x Skyshroud Claim
1x Three Visits
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Mystic Remora
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Rhystic Study
1x Sylvan Library
1x Brainstorm
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Bribery
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Grim Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Timetwister
1x Time Spiral
1x Windfall
1x Recurring Insight
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Time Warp
1x Capture of Jingzhou
1x Temporal Manipulation
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Dark Confidant
1x Bant Charm
1x Beast Within
1x Krosan Grip
1x Return to Dust
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Terminate
1x Hallowed Burial
1x All Is Dust
1x Dragon Tyrant
1x Nicol Bolas
1x Worldgorger Dragon
1x Shivan Hellkite
1x Animate Dead
1x Dance of the Dead
1x Necromancy
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
1x Badlands
1x Bayou
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Breeding Pool
1x Cavern of Souls
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Flooded Strand
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plateau
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Savannah
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Scrubland
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Taiga
1x Temple Garden
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volcanic Island
1x Watery Grave
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
Additionally, how would your deck fare if Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon came out? Only answer I see is if Scion is already out, swing as Steel Hellkite, x=3. Besides that, I don't know what you could do.
Expedition Map seems like an auto-include in a deck with key lands such as yours.
Very glad to see you are running Global Ruin, it is nothing less than amazing in 5 color builds (with the right land base of course).
Also might want to consider Boseiju, Who Shelters All for protecting your game-winning Patriarch's Bidding and such.
Overall the deck looks pretty strong though, good job. And good choice in generals!
Hey!
Thanks for the reply.
To answer your concerns, I'll try to address each briefly:
Blood Moon is not seen in my Meta thankfully, so I doubt that'd be an issue. Plus, whoever played it would be gunned for immediately as most decks are tri-color plus. While this may be; if it were to enter the meta I have signets / Relic for colored mana for pulse, deed, mortify, and other bits of removal; basics could be in the side, but I'm against them (See below)
Boseiju, Who shelters All is a board option (we get 10 card boards) that remains there until I have a blue matchup, in which case it goes in 99% of the time.
Expedition map doesn't really seem that good here, as I have all the fixing I'd need and it only puts to hand; I'd rather play Sylvan Scrying and even then I think I'd prefer another source of accel.
Noble Hierarch , while good in 1v1 matches, often dies to collateral damage and I feel as if the accel boost it offers isn't relevant most times or worth the slot.
On running Basics: I'm pretty against the idea as there are times when running just a few slows down my color progression very fast, and the benefit of occasionally having cultivate seems weak. I'd rather run more nonbasic accel, which I'm sure it's out there I just didn't have time to think of it last night. I'm going to do a bit of research this afternoon and attempt to find some more.
Global Ruin Is a house and I love it. No one else likes me after I play it though ^.^"
Hey Rageinuyasha, have you checked out the Scion of the Ur-Dragon list in the 1v1 forums?
The link is right here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=290260
I've been playing Scion for a while with the Hermit Druid kill, and it can be very strong. It's a very different deck than what you've posted here, but it has a ton of "I Win" hands that can't be ignored.
If your opponents are running lots of countermagic, it can be very bothersome however and I wouldn't recommend it based on your meta, especially in a multiplayer environment.
Which leads me to my next question...
What decks specifically are in your meta, and how competitive are they? You mentioned that a lot of decks are tri-colored -- a lot of tri colored generals have very different approaches to the game (I mean, look at all the different ways you can play Sharuum, for instance).
Scion can take a bunch of different routes (obviously, as it's a 5 color general), although it might help us a bit more if we get more information (be detailed please!) on what you're running up against.
Hey,
I'm in a hypercompetitive meta with decks like Arcum, Sharuum, Azami, Jhoira, Sisay, Oona, and a few others (Adun Oakenshield, Uril, the Mistalker, Numot the Devestator, and Skittles all come to mind.) Essentially people tweaking 1v1 combo decks to try and make them multiplayer ready. The meta is mostly combo, with a few aggro decks running amuck, though they're rarely seen. Most of these combo decks are eerily similar to the compendium lists or those run by a few of the star members here; though there is the occasional homebrew that is decent as well.
As far as Hermit Druid Combo, I tried it in multiplayer but it's far too risky in my opinion, as if any opponent has removal you're not in the best spot to deal with three others who realize you can combo out as soon as you're set up. I tried that route already, and it didn't work lol (you'll note I was one of the first posters in the thread you linked.)
I'm trying to make something less combo dependant that simply always has effects to do, and doesn't run out of steam in multiplayer as many combo decks do.
Also, there are bigger worries than Blood Moon... say, Ruination? I know no one in the area runs it as of this moment, but that's no reason not to prepare for it.
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR
WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG
WRG Mayael the Anima WRG
WB Triad of Fates WB
BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
WR Aurelia the Warleader WR
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
As an aside to someone who I might play with on a regular basis....Piss off for the three visits comment
That said, I'm digging the Mwonvoli Acid Moss , Always love an early reap and sow.
Also, I think my first two cuts are going to be the ultimatums. Having the correct colors is often difficult and unless I plan ahead of time frankly annoying. Anyone else have any ideas for huge spells that could take their place, or just better cards? My current thoughts are Sword of Body and Mind and Hellkite Charger for infinite attack steps.
There's also the Hive Mind / Pacts way to go, but that seems to janky.
Edit: Just got a three visits just to spite Destinytrigger. Let it be held for the record.
Meh. Something something draw power for Cruel and something something Austere Command for Violence. Or switch one of those for Acid-Moss/Three Visits.
And how does that spite me!? I told you to get it, and now you got one! Getting one and then not running it, THAT's spiting me
Sword's not a bad idea either. Pacts is. Just name the right sword next time.
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR
WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG
WRG Mayael the Anima WRG
WB Triad of Fates WB
BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
WR Aurelia the Warleader WR
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
Lol, spaced on that. So the card going in are Sword of Feast and Famine and Three Visits for now, I think that hellkite charger is just a little too janky at the moment...maybe if I run more ways to throw it back in my deck if I draw it or something.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Edit: The deck underwent a massive change, losing a ton of its dragons and replacing them with cheap removal and draw power. Also, when scanning through cards I managed to see shapesharer, and despite not testing it yet the possibilities are truly horrifying. Attack with Scion, after no blocks are declared morph into shapesharer into blightsteel colossus or whatever other silly thing is on the board, or make scion into a primeval titan or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre , etc.
I wouldn't cut too much of your high-end stuff in multiplayer. It's important that you can always stay the big man at the table. As long as you're not swinging at everyone equally, you won't have everyone hating you. Just pick your most threatening target and attack him relentlessly so the other two people won't screw with you too much. Just make sure you have instant speed "stoppers" to handle everyone else, like Swords to Plowshares, or Dismantling Blow.
Shapesharer is a very sweet card and a great addition.
If you're area is combo, pack spot removal for whatever they're comboing out with, it will help more than counterspells will in your kind of deck. Artifact destruction if they're comboing out with artifacts, enchantment removal if they're using enchantments, etc. I find it's much better to telegraph to your opponents that you're a proactive player and then wreck them with a well placed Swords to Plowshares.
You have a 10 card sideboard too, so perhaps you can add a lot of spot removal there (as color hosers are pretty bad in Scion) and board it in depending on who is at the table.
Fair enough, perhaps I should simply change the threat density of my package instead of moving towards the oath route ~ I'm used to 1v1 and don't encounter politics too much...I'm not the best with them. That said, What threats shall I include in that case? I thought about hellkite charger sword of feast and famine, but that seems a little too easily disrupted for my taste.
Tainted strike could be amusing as an instant kill with dragon tyrant, but do you think it's enough to get me hated off the board? On that note, I could use it to turn my opponents swinging at eachother into lethal damage quicker...I like that idea actually.
Edit: This list was changed to include tainted strike, and begin to lean more towards a combo / aggro build with the inclusion of some of the more aggro dragons, in addition to Niv Mizzet for Ophidian Eye shennanigans.
They're all in the board depending on the matchup ^.^
To address each question individually:
Sol Ring / Mana Crypt enter for Shapesharer and Cultivate.
Niv Mizzet / Ophidian Eye is incredible. Simply put, if I get ophidian eye I have (2) win the game with my general, or worst to worst I force my opponents removal. Niv by himself is still an ok draw, as it lets me ping off small creatures and acts as a second phyrexian arena.
Diamond Valley is ultimately irrelevant, as the lifegain is very little and I'm not running a sacrificial deck
Animate Dead / Dance of the Dead have both tested better then exhume and reanimate in testing. Exhume generally provides my opponents too much advantage and reanimate came out to cost too much life when I wanted to revive my typical targets (Nicol Bolas, Karrthus, etc.) chances are if they're on the field, I don't have to worry about deeding or austere. Plus, all my removal is controlled and I'm going to waste the same amount of resources with exhume or reanimate as I am with animate / dance.
Praetor's Grasp is far from winmore. Worst to worst it steals an accelerant, best to best I simply win as soon as I cast it. At 3 mana, it's anything but winmore.
Again, to go in order:
Mana Drain - Was in the list initially, but it turned out to be pretty weak, as it was reactive and the only thing it really did was net me mana as a 1 shot effect. There was no way of grabbing it from my deck when I needed it, and it was very random.
Scroll Rack - Again, was in my initial list but I don't run anywhere near enough targets to really worry about having to shuffle things from my hand back in. Also, other then that purpose it's pretty dead most of the time.
Recurring Insight - Is simply broken in this format. It normally reads "Draw at minimum 5, then draw at minimum 4" though more times then not it actually nets a full 13-14 cards for 6 mana.
Myojin of Night's Reach - This card wins the game if it resolves. Assuming you're strategic about it, you just wait till the end of target disliked opponents draw step and activate, causing all your opponents to pitch their hands and leaving you in a very advantageous board position.
Reiterate - Generally, I love the card, but it does have some flaws. Sure, I have to keep 3 mana open (Or 6 if I can afford to, which admittedly doesn't really happen till late game) but when my opponent tries to genesis wave for a ton, or they try and do something else like that, it's ALWAYS nice to have and it's better then fork simply because late game the buyback is completely relevant. Also, it can be used with my own blatant thievery, things like that for simply grabbing backbreaking board position.
Wild Ricochet - Essentially the same as Reiterate, except that it's a one shot that normally gives me two copies of the spell. It's really nice when someone tries to mind twist or decimate and you have a quick two more to throw at them. That said, this is the next weakest slot in the deck for requiring you to leave 4 mana open and I could easily see it being cut long before anything else.
Stroke of Genius is multipurpose for several reasons:
- It Refills your hand late game
- It nets a few cards mid game if need be
- With Mana Reflection / Wake, generally it nets more then you would think
- With Mana Reflection / Grim Monolith, it gives me an instant kill. This is key, because when I Niv Mizzet / Ophidian Eye, I can only kill 2 people at full life, so I need an alternate way to kill the remaining weakest link (Generally, without reliquary tower I keep a hand with Patriarch's Bidding, Grim Monolith, a Mana Reflection, Removal, and Bant Charm.)
Strip Mine - This is banned locally, though I throw it in during casual games occasionally.
Hey! I don't have a lot of time, but i'll address what I can, and edit more later:
Living Death / Bidding -> They're as good as in any traditional scion build. I get Nicol Bolas / Karrthus and maybe tyrant or something, and that's enough to wipe out a hand, and kill another player generally. Worst to worst, bidding limits my opponents recursion and living death doubles as a damnation depending. I like them here.
Victimize -> This card is very dependent on me having other creatures on the field, and I feel like it's just not that good here. For what you said, it requires me to run bladewing who also isn't the best; I don't need to put more overcosting cards in my deck, I'm trying to keep my upper end CMC to a minimum. Victimize is also highly dependant on my yard at the time, and the creatures come in tapped. Overall, not a fan. It just seems worse then the above two slots
Sarkhan the Mad -> Man this guy is awesome. He's a draw engine, but his main purpose is tricks with scion. Activation Scion, become Nicol Bolas, use Sarkhan's Ultimate, Target player discards there hand and takes 7, then swing at another player and they discard their hand and take 7. It's pretty brutal. He's also removal, on top of all else!
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[Modern] Allies
You're right about Enlightened Tutor; it's just worse then imp seal or grim here. Your opponent knowing what you grab is just too much pain for enchantments / artifacts.
Academy Rector isn't run because I don't have enough ways to accurately remove it myself, and it has been a dead drop on turn 4 before where any of my other turn four drops are better. It's not like I'm playing sliver queen and can instantly combo off with it, either.
To address the Brainstorm comment; I thought about it but the truth is I never really need to shuffle dragons back in, and the chance of drawing a dragon and brainstorm in the same hand and early game circumstance is rare. Not to mention I would virtually never tutor for brainstorm over another card, so it doesn't work in that way either. Brainstorm is a fine card by itself, but it just can't really edge out anything that's already in the deck in my opinion, at least not in this format.
Conspiracy was tested and is often winmore with the deck. Generally, the condition of having scion on the field, an enchantment, and an activation without a killspell in my meta is rare. Additionally, it forces me to run either more bombs that aren't as streamlined or focus on what I have as 1 shots, which isn't ideal and ends up leaving me short on creatures / resources. Not a fan.
Ophidian Eye + Niv Mizzet - I have been in the position countless times that you're describing. What you miss, however, is that you kill two players, have one remaining (the weakest amongst them) and you just drew 80 cards. You simply just set yourself up with godcombo with protection next turn, or a patriarch's bidding for the win with boseiju backup. Either way, you're pretty much guarenteed a win once you grip that many cards. Even if you don't need boseiju, dropping reliquary tower and keeping all those cards lets you often win instantaneously. I know you're just suggesting stuff, but this is all stuff that has been tested and worked through
I also noticed you don't run Wheel of Sun and Moon which has been a beast in my Scion deck, allowing dragons to be recurred multiple times has locked some games down, especially with Nicol Bolas running mad and the redundancy it causes with the Niv Mizzet win.
Also I don't know where you ended up in the Brainstorm recommendation, but it also serves to help you trigger the Niv combo the same turn you play Scion, giving it more of an unexpected early jump. Normally you have to get Scion to survive a turn to tap him, now you can force the draw and Niv activation all in one turn.
Never thought of the Sarkhan interaction, have to work that into my deck.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
I thought they may have been left over from a previous build, with only 5 dragons and no conspiracy, it seems Patriarch's bidding would be pretty lack luster, turning Scion into Nicol every turn or multiple attempts to combo with Niv seems a lot more useful.
Especially with all of these tutors, you can replay the same sorcery/instant multiple times as well if you can keep fetching it out.
It would however shut down the crucible route while it was out.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG