I used to have Etched Oracle in the deck, and it was good. However somewhere along the way it got cut. I've honestly never seen the Knacksaw Clique before. I kinda like it, I'll probably test that out.
Just so you know, the Kraj/Planeswalker combo got nerfed in the last comp rules updates. The base activated abilities on planeswalkers are now "Loaylty Abilities" with the base rule that they can only be activated once per turn.
606
This ability was added to cover "loyalty abilities," which are activated abilities with loyalty symbols in their costs. Previous rules about planeswalkers stated that a player could activate only one of their abilities per planeswalker per turn, and could do so only at a time he or she could cast a sorcery. Now these restrictions are intrinsic to the abilities, not intrinsic to the planeswalker card type.
This was done for two reasons. 1) This makes a lot more sense if a planeswalker is granted an activated ability, as with Flame Fusillade. Activating that other ability shouldn't preclude activating a loyalty ability, and shouldn't have to be done only at a time the player could cast a sorcery. 2) This closes a loophole regarding a non-planeswalker (such as Quicksilver Elemental) that somehow picks up some loyalty abilities and goes bonkers.
The rest of the 600 section (from the old section 606 through the old section 615) have all been renumbered.
I'm not at all devastated by the 'Walker rules update, seems to fit better now anyway. I'm looking on the bright side as now I have some room for updates.
Sure, I'm a little miffed about the Planeswalker rule (it was a really unique interaction), but oh well. The only thing we can do is hope that EDH doesn't get screwed by becoming all "official" and whatnot.
Got a list for us, Risk? Lately I've been going witht the fun route with Kraj, and not as much competitive. LMK what you've done lately, as we have some open slots now.
@Bio: I actually haven't had much time to play recently so Kraj has unfortunately fallen to the wayside a bit. I did pick up and Oran Rief to put in but otherwise haven't made any changes. When I do finally get around to touching up the deck I will do so in the OP and then write a post describing the changes made.
except when your tablemates let it happen just to watch Gotta say after a 2+ hour game that was an awesome way to finish
It was. Shame that it's not going to work anymore. Maybe I'll make room for some more grafters, or a way to change Oran-Rief's color to blue and green.
I've been trying to find something in the comp rules that explains this but I'm coming up short:
I'm wondering how a card like Rootwater Thief works here (cards in which the effect of an ability refers to the name of the card). If Rootwater Thief has a +1/+1 counter on it, how does the ability read on Kraj?
What about Glen Elendra Archmage? Of course putting +1/+1 counters on her is great because of persist, but would Kraj be able to pay the cost for her countering ability (sacrificing itself)?
"The granted abilities effectively use 'this permanent,' rather than '[that card's name],' so you treat the abilities as if they were printed on Quicksilver Elemental. For example, you treat an ability that says 'Sacrifice a creature: Nantuko Husk gets +2/+2 until end of turn' as 'Sacrifice a creature: Quicksilver Elemental gets +2/+2 until end of turn.'"
I still haven't found anything about this in the comp rules. This ruling doesn't appear for Kraj, so it was really hard for me to find. I know it would have helped me out some if that was posted in the op.
By the way, I just got into EDH a few months ago and the first deck I built was Akroma, Angel of Fury. Recently I put together Momir Vig, Simic Visionary starting from your thread, and just realized you were the op for Akroma. You have good taste.
I just recently discovered this format (and love it) and decided to build my deck around The Kraj. Blue and Green both appeal to me and I like this rather unique ability. I'm aiming at casual multiplayer.
(Note: casual to me means not aiming for really fast wins - I'm not looking for something that combos out on turn 5 and kills everyone. If I can pull something crazy with Kraj and win on turn 15, that is what I'm aiming for).
The biggest problem I've had with it (just playing around with friends) is that it seems to have too many non-creature cards and it just doesn't play like it seems like a Kraj deck should. It ends up playing like blue control in a lot of games, and I've won that way but it's not a very fun win (1v1, Capsize all lands over multiple turns + Wash Out for example). So I'd like to take out a significant amount of blue, but I'm having trouble deciding what to take out. I like blue control but I'm not sure where the fine line of "too much" is.
I'd like Genesis, Tooth and Nail, Glen Elendra Archmage, and Doubling Season but I haven't been able to find them at the online shop I normally use (and/or they are pricey). Obviously there's also a lot of other dual lands I could use but 1) I'm not sure they're necessary and 2) they generally are more expensive as well. Oh, and as soon as I get a Lightning Greaves it will replace the Stealthsuit.
A few other cards I'm considering picking up but not sure of: Elvish Abberation - worth it in place of a forest? Life From the Loam - may end up as a sideboard right now (since no one I run with really uses land destruction) but I can see it being really useful. Academy Ruins - usually my artifacts are ok but usually doesn't means always. Sakashima the Impostor - another clone/Body Double effect, which I've always liked. Deadwood Treefolk - seems like a really excellent recursion creature, especially late game. Tolaria West - not as a land, but as a second Expedition Map effect. Chord of Calling - I like it (especially the instant-part) but I feel like I might have too many tutors already. Maybe to replace Worldly Tutor? Seedborn Muse - seems like it could be exceptional but I already plan on Murkfiend Liege, do I need two? High Market - might be useful to be able to put some creatures in the graveyard on demand, and also acts as a StP and PtE dodge. Acidic Slime - I don't want to run a ton of destruction, but this seems like it could be really good with Recursion. Riftsweeper - I usually see at least some Exile effects, is this worth running so I can counter that? Garruk Wildspeaker - mostly as a mana accelerator and to enable token overrun. Mana Reflection - not sure if I really need the mana, especially since enchantments are fairly vulnerable and Kraj has a lot of high-production combos already. Doubling Cube - has some interesting applications and could accelerate my Kraj tokens with the right cards. But again, Kraj can already generate infinite mana pretty easily so I'm not sure of this.
Guess I'm mostly looking for feedback on - What do I currently have that's weak, what of the options I listed are solid and advice on moving the deck away from blue control and more toward "holy cow Kraj is awesome". And of course if anyone sees any glaring holes in the deck.
I still haven't found anything about this in the comp rules. This ruling doesn't appear for Kraj, so it was really hard for me to find. I know it would have helped me out some if that was posted in the op.
Is this the ruling you were looking for?
202. Name
202.1. The name of a card is printed on its upper left corner.
202.2. Card text that refers to the card it’s on by name means just that particular card and not any
other duplicates of it, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects. Also, if a card
has an effect on or grants an ability that includes that card’s name to another card, the name
refers only to the card generating the effect or granting the ability, not to duplicates of cards
with the same name.
As far as the deck, I've wanted to make a Kraj EDH deck since I learned what EDH was. I'm so glad there's this dialogue between you guys refining the deck, and I can't wait for Risk's latest decklist update.
Hey guys it's been awhile since I posted in the thread and I have an updated decklist to share that will replace the one in the OP. Should be up within the next 48 hrs. so check back. Sorry for my absence. Let's get back to talkin Kraj!
EDIT: Current list is up in the OP for your enjoyment.
No, I haven't tried Nullmage Shepherd. But with Kraj + Wickerbough Elder + Devoted Druid you can destroy any number of artifacts and/or enchantments at will. Trust me, the Elder is worth it.
Explanation: (Wickerbough Elder and Devoted Druid both need +1/+1 counters on them for this to work) Tap Kraj to produce G ala Druid, put a -1/-1 counter on Kraj to untap him ala Druid again. Use the floating G and remove the -1/-1 counter from Kraj to destroy and artifact/enchantment ala Elder. Rinse and repeat as desired. I often find myself tutoring up this pair with Defense of the Heart or T&N.
Any reason why you don't use concordant crossroads? I see you have thousand-year elixir, so why not double your chances in your deck of getting the ability to give your creatures haste? Only reason I can see is that it affects everyones creatures, but I would imagine with all your activated abilities (especially mana abilities) that haste would be really important. But then again I've never tried Kraj, so dunno.
Also, whats the ruling on Kraj's effect on level cards from eldrazi like enclave cryptologist? Does he have to level up as well? Does he get any/all of the activated abilities possible on the other creature regardless of that other creature's level? Rings of Brighthearth worth it? In a deck that is almost exclusively acitvated abilities, would be really nice to pay 2 for a nice ability.
I've tweaked my build a bit again, I'll post changes in the near future.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I also like Etched Oracle and Knacksaw Clique.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/58a&page=5
Cytoplast Manipulator is already in.
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood will assuredly go in as soon as I get around to updating this.
Seaside Citadel cannot go in due to the white mana symbol.
I'm not at all devastated by the 'Walker rules update, seems to fit better now anyway. I'm looking on the bright side as now I have some room for updates.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Got a list for us, Risk? Lately I've been going witht the fun route with Kraj, and not as much competitive. LMK what you've done lately, as we have some open slots now.
except when your tablemates let it happen just to watch Gotta say after a 2+ hour game that was an awesome way to finish
OH and Fenaris, is that you?
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
It was. Shame that it's not going to work anymore. Maybe I'll make room for some more grafters, or a way to change Oran-Rief's color to blue and green.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I'm wondering how a card like Rootwater Thief works here (cards in which the effect of an ability refers to the name of the card). If Rootwater Thief has a +1/+1 counter on it, how does the ability read on Kraj?
What about Glen Elendra Archmage? Of course putting +1/+1 counters on her is great because of persist, but would Kraj be able to pay the cost for her countering ability (sacrificing itself)?
Kraj can sac himself to counter if Archmage is in play with a +1/+1 counter. He will not, however, have persist.
Man that OP needs updating big time. I must get on that.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I found the rule I was looking for in the rulings on Quicksilver Elemental:
"The granted abilities effectively use 'this permanent,' rather than '[that card's name],' so you treat the abilities as if they were printed on Quicksilver Elemental. For example, you treat an ability that says 'Sacrifice a creature: Nantuko Husk gets +2/+2 until end of turn' as 'Sacrifice a creature: Quicksilver Elemental gets +2/+2 until end of turn.'"
I still haven't found anything about this in the comp rules. This ruling doesn't appear for Kraj, so it was really hard for me to find. I know it would have helped me out some if that was posted in the op.
By the way, I just got into EDH a few months ago and the first deck I built was Akroma, Angel of Fury. Recently I put together Momir Vig, Simic Visionary starting from your thread, and just realized you were the op for Akroma. You have good taste.
(Note: casual to me means not aiming for really fast wins - I'm not looking for something that combos out on turn 5 and kills everyone. If I can pull something crazy with Kraj and win on turn 15, that is what I'm aiming for).
The biggest problem I've had with it (just playing around with friends) is that it seems to have too many non-creature cards and it just doesn't play like it seems like a Kraj deck should. It ends up playing like blue control in a lot of games, and I've won that way but it's not a very fun win (1v1, Capsize all lands over multiple turns + Wash Out for example). So I'd like to take out a significant amount of blue, but I'm having trouble deciding what to take out. I like blue control but I'm not sure where the fine line of "too much" is.
Here's my current deck:
1 Experiment Kraj
Creatures - 29
2 Eternal Witness
3 Krosan Restorer
4 Mycoloth
5 Myojin of Life's Web
6 Nemata, Grove Guardian
7 Sakura-Tribe Elder
8 Spike Feeder
9 Spike Hatcher
10 Spike Tiller
11 Thornling
12 Viridian Joiner
13 Body Double
14 Clone
15 Draining Whelk
16 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
17 Morphling
18 Novijen Sages
19 Rootwater Thief
20 Thalakos Drifters
21 Tidespout Tyrant
22 Tradewind Rider
23 Voidmage Husher
24 Gilder Bairn
25 Mystic Snake
26 Sturdy Hatchling
28 Keldon Battlewagon
29 Mindless Automaton
30 Pili-Pala
Walkers - 1
31 Jace Beleren
Instants - 14
32 Harrow
33 Krosan Grip
34 Summoning Trap
35 Worldly Tutor
36 Capsize
37 Counterspell
38 Desertion
39 Dominate
40 Fact or Fiction
41 Forbid
42 Gather Specimens
43 Hinder
44 Mystical Tutor
45 Snakeform
Sorceries - 10
46 Elven Cache
47 Journey of Discovery
48 Multani's Decree
49 Regrowth
50 Primal Command
51 Skyshroud Claim
52 Woodland Guidance
54 Rite of Replication
55 Wash Out
Enchantments - 1
56 Opposition
Colorless - 8
57 Maze of Ith
58 Crystal Shard
59 Darksteel Ingot
60 Evolution Vat
61 Expedition Map
62 Neurok Stealthsuit
63 Paradise Plume
64 Proteus Staff
Lands - 36
65 Novijen, Heart of Progress
66 Temple of the False God
67 Winding Canyons
68 Yavimaya hollow
69 Gaea's Cradle
70 Bant Panorama
71 Meteor Crater
72 Simic Growth Chamber
73 Terramorphic Expanse
74 Tropical Island
75 Yavimaya Coast
76 Vesuva
10x Forest
14x Island
Cards I should be getting soon - most of these I think are solid with the possible exception of Devoted Druid.
1x Jodah's Avenger
1x Cauldron of Souls
1x Spitting Image
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Devoted Druid
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Vigor
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Plaxcaster Frogling
1x Triskelion
1x Murkfiend Liege
1x Thousand-Year Elixir
1x Cytoplast Manipulator
1x Voidslime
I'd like Genesis, Tooth and Nail, Glen Elendra Archmage, and Doubling Season but I haven't been able to find them at the online shop I normally use (and/or they are pricey). Obviously there's also a lot of other dual lands I could use but 1) I'm not sure they're necessary and 2) they generally are more expensive as well. Oh, and as soon as I get a Lightning Greaves it will replace the Stealthsuit.
A few other cards I'm considering picking up but not sure of:
Elvish Abberation - worth it in place of a forest?
Life From the Loam - may end up as a sideboard right now (since no one I run with really uses land destruction) but I can see it being really useful.
Academy Ruins - usually my artifacts are ok but usually doesn't means always.
Sakashima the Impostor - another clone/Body Double effect, which I've always liked.
Deadwood Treefolk - seems like a really excellent recursion creature, especially late game.
Tolaria West - not as a land, but as a second Expedition Map effect.
Chord of Calling - I like it (especially the instant-part) but I feel like I might have too many tutors already. Maybe to replace Worldly Tutor?
Seedborn Muse - seems like it could be exceptional but I already plan on Murkfiend Liege, do I need two?
High Market - might be useful to be able to put some creatures in the graveyard on demand, and also acts as a StP and PtE dodge.
Acidic Slime - I don't want to run a ton of destruction, but this seems like it could be really good with Recursion.
Riftsweeper - I usually see at least some Exile effects, is this worth running so I can counter that?
Garruk Wildspeaker - mostly as a mana accelerator and to enable token overrun.
Mana Reflection - not sure if I really need the mana, especially since enchantments are fairly vulnerable and Kraj has a lot of high-production combos already.
Doubling Cube - has some interesting applications and could accelerate my Kraj tokens with the right cards. But again, Kraj can already generate infinite mana pretty easily so I'm not sure of this.
Guess I'm mostly looking for feedback on - What do I currently have that's weak, what of the options I listed are solid and advice on moving the deck away from blue control and more toward "holy cow Kraj is awesome". And of course if anyone sees any glaring holes in the deck.
Thanks.
Is this the ruling you were looking for?
As far as the deck, I've wanted to make a Kraj EDH deck since I learned what EDH was. I'm so glad there's this dialogue between you guys refining the deck, and I can't wait for Risk's latest decklist update.
I like Strength of the Tajuru better then Thrive - instant speed and it can offer a lot of offensive power as well if necessary.
That said I don't run it in my Kraj deck, getting counters on creatures isn't that big of a deal.
EDIT: Current list is up in the OP for your enjoyment.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Explanation: (Wickerbough Elder and Devoted Druid both need +1/+1 counters on them for this to work) Tap Kraj to produce G ala Druid, put a -1/-1 counter on Kraj to untap him ala Druid again. Use the floating G and remove the -1/-1 counter from Kraj to destroy and artifact/enchantment ala Elder. Rinse and repeat as desired. I often find myself tutoring up this pair with Defense of the Heart or T&N.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Also, whats the ruling on Kraj's effect on level cards from eldrazi like enclave cryptologist? Does he have to level up as well? Does he get any/all of the activated abilities possible on the other creature regardless of that other creature's level?
Rings of Brighthearth worth it? In a deck that is almost exclusively acitvated abilities, would be really nice to pay 2 for a nice ability.
Tolsimir Wolfblood G/W
tap down the field, give kraj +20/+20... and swing for general damage
That is nasty, just nasty.
UGExperiment KrajUG