Hey, all. This is an EDH idea I've been thinking about, but I want some feedback before I build it. I play in a casual group, so competitive-wise I don't need this deck to be an absurd amount of money to win each game. I play on a budget, so keep that in mind when suggesting. Thanks!
EDIT: Took out a bunch, focusing a tad more on ETB effects (Gilded Drake) and recursion (through Erratic Portal and Crystal Shard) after Blackjack's comments.
Any help would be appreciated! Please, try to keep it as budget as possible, though.
@Blackjack68: I already have Rend Flesh which serves as my non-DB removal, but if it really needs it I could swap the DB out for Eyeblight's Ending. (If I get my hands on a Go for the Throat, though, I'll prioritize that.)
Ingot, Map, and Necropolis are all great ideas, but I'm not really sold on Bojuka Bog. I don't think there's enough graveyard interaction in my playgroup to make that necessary over Relic of Progenitus, which I was considering.
Also, it's true that this seems to be lacking a specific focus. I'd mainly be playing multiplayer, so I tried to incorporate enough of a control aspect to keep potential threats in check, while waiting for my general as the most likely win-con. If you think this requires a more specified focus, I'm all ears. My last EDH (Teneb) failed miserably, probably due to the lack of synergy with the rest of the deck. If there's a blatant Garza-plan that I'm missing, I'd love to hear it.
Thanks!
You're running some quality cards in the mix, and in a casual group I think the deck will do ok with just a few tweaks, but getting more focused is usually the difference between "ok" and "brutal". We could explore some of that and see where it leads.
First, I have to ask if you're attached to Garza as the commander, as for the same mana cost and colors you could also use Thraximundar (which I see you have already). Thrax and Garzas abilities are much alike, but Thraxs' is much easier and effective to abuse, and he can deal with threats that Garza can't.
I do have some ideas either way, but before I go ahead in one direction I'd like to know for sure which commander to go with.
Well one of the pluses for Garza is the draw. Flying is more evasive than forced-sacing, as well, so Garza's Commander dmg is more likely to get through. But yes, I could see myself going with Thraximundar if the benefits are substantial enough.
The thing that makes Thrax so tough is you load your deck with sacrifice effects/grave pact effects/ and ways to profit from that besides Thrax. In a 4-player game, a simple "sac my own creature to x" with Grave Pact or Butcher of Malakir out makes thrax a likely 10/10 immediately swinging for 11 general dmg. A Barter in Blood by itself will likely make him a 14/14, throw in grave pact on top of that and you've probably swept everything off the board and are swinging for lethal damage in one shot.
Another fun thing about thrax is all the stealing and saccing. Red and Blue are so good at thieving. When you add in Blacks sacrifice power it gets absolutely brutal.
*** Obviously my leanings are toward Thrax, but my intent was to start off with trying to optimize and add a little focus to the current Garza build, and I still want to, but, and I apologize, I'm starting to nod off onto the keyboard. I have to get some sleep asap. I promise, as soon as I wake, I'll get back to this thread and see what we can come up with for the Vampire Queen.
Thanks for all the help so far! That does sound like a very enticing idea for Thrax, but it seems a bit control-y for me. I play with regular 60-card casual decks, mostly, so I see EDH as the format where you can play big creatures/spells without being crazy. That kind of ruthless efficiency sounds great to the Johnny in me, but I think EDH is the place where my Timmy needs to be let loose.
I appreciate the Thrax ideas, though. If I find myself in a more competitive Commander environment next year (college, woo), then I'd definitely prefer that. (It sounds very similar to a casual Savra/Golgari casual deck I run. I'd imagine Thrax gets real big real fast.)
Ok, awake and revitalized, ready to talk about Garza. This is going to be a long-winded take on the deck, but I promised I'd try my best and I don't have anything else to do, so here we go.
So, if I understand the parameters were looking at here, we want a budget minded deck for mostly mulitplayer in a casual group that's not too "controllish", will satisfy the Timmy in the pilot and keep the game fun for the group while still being appropriately powerful/effective.
.... I just love doing this stuff
Start with the manabase:
What you've got already will do fine for casual multiplayer, but there are some good budget boosters to be had in this area. As far as density goes, you're running 44 total cards devoted to mana (5 artifact) which I think is good. If there is one thing I'd add above all else, it would probably be Coalition Relic (under $2). It's Fixing, Acceleration, and Storage for further acceleration all in one. It really is a great card.
Further upgrading lands as you go:
You may want to grab some of these lands as you go along or find them in trades. If you do end up getting more competitive and switching to Thrax for a commander eventually, they all maintain their useability and the manabase is always one of the best investments you can make.
As for what to cut to make room for the new lands, as you get into more competitve play, you'll start to see people killing off your Ravnica Bouncelands after you've already paid the bounce cost, and it really sets you back in tempo, so those would be the first to eventually go. The Panorama, then Rupture Spire would round out the non-basic cuts as you acquire upgrades.
Obviously the best fixing (other than the very expensive original dual lands) are the Ravnica Shocklands backed up by Fetchlands to go get them. The prices on these cards are getting pretty reasonable, but I'd guess they would still be a "consideration for later" for you.
The Shocklands:
There are also some good cipt fetchlands from Mirage that will only set you back about 25 cents each. They are Bad River and Rocky Tar Pit.
.
Other than those, you can always keep your eye out for:
Lorwyn Vivids: (50cents to a buck)
On to the creatures and other spells:
Garza's abilities aren't ones we can really build around or abuse very much, so that leaves us with basically a "good stuff" deck using the best her colors gives us access to and trying to create some synergy and efficiency within that framework rather than a single, focused strategy based on her (although we will get somewhat focused on something here in a bit).
First, the stuff I'm personally a bit "iffy" on. Suggesting cuts is always the hardest part for me, because you never know what "pet" cards someone is really attached to, or what particularly serves them well given what's in their own playgroup. And the fact that I haven't actually played with the deck means I could easily miss some interaction somewhere. With that said.... Godo - He doesn't have very many killer equipments to fetch, and no other samurai to untap and take another swing with. Though Unscythe, Fireshrieker and Whispersilk are good equips with some of your other creatures and Garza, he's basically serving as an overcosted/inefficient tutor and could easily be cut. Herald of Leshrac - He's all by himself. No real synergy with anything else in the deck, and outside his ability he's weak. If powerful utility lands are giving you problems, then I'd suggest Strip Mine and Tectonic Edge, but Leshrac should probably go. Ghastlord - I think you'll find that with his casting cost, he's much more difficult to cast in a 3-color deck. By the time you get the required colored mana to play him, you would likely be able to play something that has much more impact than he does. Dragon Breath and Diplomatic Immunity - With the inherent drawback of auras (getting 2 for 1'd), and their effect being minimal in this deck, I'd suggest Lightning Greaves and another open slot as a replacement. Barter in Blood - While great in a Thrax deck, you're probably not going to have very often when you'll want to sac 2 along with everyone else. Most of your creatures require a significant investment, and although you do have some recursion, it would still hurt quite a bit most of the time.
Just replacing those spells with some more potent ones will give you a nice boost, but I'm going to suggest a couple further cuts to leave enough room to expand on a theme that you've already started with the deck. I'll explain that after. Those would be Unscythe and Sun Droplet.
So, that's 8 cuts in all.
The theme that you've already started on that I mentioned is etb and recursion. You've got quite a bit going with creature recursion spells and Deathmantle already and Mnemonic Wall and Nucklavee are great at spell recursion. Fleshbags etb ability can be quite good as well, along with all your shapeshifter dudes. If we use those 8 open slots to enhance this strategy further, I think it might prove very effective.
Start off with Crystal Shard and Erratic Portal. Not used to bounce opposing creatures (although that can work if they've tapped out), but to bounce your own to protect them or to abuse their etb abilities again. Continually bouncing your wall or Nucklavee can keep your hand full of instants and sorceries for re-use. It also resets your shapeshifters for juicier targets. For instance, you can continually cast, bounce, and recast Duplicant to keep exiling opposing commanders or other fatties.
Now add Gilded Drake. At about 5 bucks he's not cheap, but he's not expensive either and he's an all star with recursion. Cast him, swapping control of him with one of your opponents big scary fatties. Then Crystal Shard, Erratic Portal or Capsize him back to your hand (it's owners hand, not controllers hand so theres nothing your opponent can do about it). Now you're permanently ahead one fatty and ready to do it again.
To what we've got, I'd add Mulldrifter for more insanely abuseable card draw. Mimic Vat, one of the best edh artifacts ever printed to further abuse etb abilities. Great Vat Targets in your deck:
Clone - To kill another commander every turn at instant speed and swing with
Duplicant - Same as Clone
Draining Whelk - Perpetual counterspell
Izzet Chronarch - Get back every instant/sorcery you ever play
Mindleech - Hit someone every turn with it and cast one of their spells.
Nucklavee - Get back every inst/sorc spell you ever play
Wall - Get back every instant you play
Fleshbag - Make everyone sac a creature every turn
Hellkite and Drana Tokens are total finishers in the Vat.
Mulldrifter - Draw 2 cards every turn
Gilded Drake is probably the best of all - You steal a creature to keep every turn while they lose the token drake at the end of turn.
And that's not even counting what you can do with some of your opponents creatures in the Vat.
I think you get the picture.
Capsize is also insanely good with this strategy and helps keep your opponents threats under control as well.
That's 6 of the 8 slots filled. Add Lightning Greaves, and we've still got 1 slot left to fill with more recursion or removal/counterspell.
So the in/out breakdown I'm suggesting so far:
-Godo
-Herald
-Barter in Blood
-Unscythe
-Ghastlord
-Diplomatic Imm
-Dragon Breath
-Sun Droplet
And I'd seriously consider Glen Elendra Archmage for that last open slot. She's awesome anyway, but add some bounce and she becomes a perpetual Negate machine. Or something purely for Timmy like Stormtide Leviathan (20 cents)or Inkwell Leviathan ($1).
All of that can be done without even any trading for less than 20 bucks easily(Maybe a couple more with Glen Elendra). And probably even beefing up your manafixing as well. And I think the end result is a more focused and potent, but very interactive, fun deck. Every game will play out differently so it won't get boring either.
Now that I step back and look at it, it might be a little too Johnny/Control for what you want, so I may have failed my mission, but you could always balance that out a bit back toward Timmy with Inkwell and Stormtide Leviathans.
Thanks for the great help! I'm probably gonna end up putting in most of the cards you suggested, and you make great arguments for the cards you think should go. My only qualm is the cost of some of the cards. Gilded Drake, while fun, is tough to get, and I feel like it'll be targeted once people get used to my recursion strategy. Great idea, but in such a limited playgroup, I think the Drake will turn out to be a one-use trick when I plan to recur it.
Lightning Greaves also are amazing (no doubt about that) but I feel that the haste granted is only half as good, as Garza (main target) already has it. Still a great card, but with Godo out and no Artifact tutors, it's incredibility doesn't overcome the price. If I can get my hands on one, I'll throw it in, but I'm not planning on actually buying one.
Similar issue with Mimic Vat. This actually would be great here, but I'm an optimist and think that the price'll drop if I wait until SoM's been out a bit longer... maybe... And a friend of mine just got 2, so I'll see if he's willing to trade for one.
Glen Elendra Archmage just seems too pricey for me. I know she can have a great impact on games, but I feel like with her out on my board, I'm painting a huge target on my head. (No one likes the impending threat of a U: Negate.) Something I'd throw in if I found one on the street, but I personally don't see it as essential. I have a spare Stormtide Leviathan that I might throw in until I get something better, though.
Yeah, other than the issues in price, I love the recursion idea for the deck. Thanks a lot! =D
I don't want to sound greedy, but are there any cheaper temporary fill-ins for those costly bad-boys? Would Neurok Stealthsuit be such a bad substitute for the Greaves?
EDIT: Also just decided against Anger. In multiplayer, you're not going to necessarily want to swing each turn you can, and most of the things I would want to (Thrax, Garza) already have Haste.
I agree that Anger could easily be ugpraded, I didn't want to suggest too many cuts all at once
I guess if you have a copy, the Stealthsuit would be ok as a stand-in for greaves especially since your 2 real baddies have haste already. But keep your eye out for one for trade, it's that 0 equip cost that really makes it amazing.
Try to get that Mimic Vat... it's under $4, and I honestly don't see it going down more than 50 cents for a LONG time. People will be using it somewhat in extended for the next 2 years, and it's always going to have a demand in casual and edh. In fact, I'm guessing the price of edh staples might go up a bit this summer when the official commander decks are released.
I don't know of any good replacements for Gilded Drake and Glen Elendra, but since your group is casual it's not like their required or anything. I'd try to find the Drake before anything though, as even if your group gets wise to him, there's not much they can do about it with all your recursion and instant speed bounce. In the meantime, I'd probably just throw a couple more removal instants or counterspells in those slots. Hinder is one of my favorite edh counterspells as it tucks generals into the library(and is only about 20cents). A simple Unsummon, though not great, could easily fill a slot also and provide you with more bounce that can easily be re-used because of Nucklavee and Mnemonic Wall.
I'm glad you like the ideas. Once you get things assembled and a few games with it, I'd like to know how it goes.
Those are good ideas, but my group just recently started a non-tuck rule (commanders go to the Command Zone instead of Exile, Graveyard, or Library) so Hinder (along with Condemn and Spin Into Myth) become less potent.
If I find a Gilded Drake cheap, I'll get it, don't worry.
Also, now that I'm thinking about it, Cruel Ultimatum is seeming less and less multiplayer to me. It's difficult to cast (amount and color), and will probably tap me out as it's a sorcery, and basically sets the targeted opponent on my rear end, as well as anyone else who'll want to monopolize my tapped-out-ness. Any fill-ins for Cruel? (Maybe another reusable bounce, like Erratic Portal? Or do I have enough?)
Any fill-ins for Cruel? (Maybe another reusable bounce, like Erratic Portal? Or do I have enough?)
I'd like to see a little more bounce in there.
CRAP! I forgot to mention another really good one.Cloudstone Curio (75 cents).
Venser, Shaper Savant is great and about $2.50. He's not only a great bounce target, he's also a bouncer.
Or you could always go with some simple instant bounce like Unsummon, Evacuation (sweeper), and Into the Roil. They aren't great, but if you can Wall/Nucklavee them back they get more attractive.
A quick note about Mulldrifter (or any evoke creature) and the bounce artifacts. You can cast him for his evoke cost 2U, he comes into play and his "draw 2 cards" ability and his "sacrifice mulldrifter" goes on the stack. With those still on the stack, you bounce him back to hand with Portal or Shard, you still get your two cards, the sacrifice fizzles due to no target, and you can do it again next turn. It even works with Cloudstone Curio because since you control all the triggers, you can decide in what order they go on the stack, so you put cloudtones triggered ability on last, it resolves first, same result.
If you don't have a lot of Black in your playgroup, the same trick that works with mulldrifter also works with Shriekmaw for repeatable creature kill. It's pretty tough, I'd highly recommend it if your environment is "target rich".
And of course, both Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter make great Mimic Vat targets. And Mimic Vat also works very well with Cloudstone Curio. You can create a token creature with Vat at instant speed and then use Cloudstones trigger to return another creature to your hand to avoid removal or just to further abuse etb abilities. See how once you get a focus, all the interactions/synergies start to intermix and boost each others power? I love finding stuff like that.
Curio's a great find, thanks!
Turns out I think I am gonna be able to round up a Drake for the deck, so that's exciting. Venser SS would be fun, but I think I'll have invested enough into this deck to keep me satisfied for a while...
OP now has what I hope to have completed in about a week's time. I'll check back to let you know how it does!
I've had fun with EDH, but I'm not as adept at deck building in this format quite yet. Thanks again for all the help. I really appreciate it.
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1x Garza Zol, Plague Queen
Creatures: 21
1x Body Double
1x Draining Whelk
1x Izzet Chronarch
1x Mindleech Mass
1x Duplicant
1x Platinum Angel
1x Graveborn Muse
1x Clone
1x Mindwrack Liege
1x Nucklavee
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Blood Tyrant
1x Lightning Reaver
1x Thraximundar
1x Butcher of Malakir
1x Mnemonic Wall
1x Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Stormtide Leviathan
1x Mulldrifter
1x Gilded Drake
Artifact: 15
1x Rakdos Signet
1x Izzet Signet
1x Dimir Signet
1x Whispersilk Cloak
1x Fireshrieker
1x Brittle Effigy
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Expedition Map
1x Mimic Vat
1x Neurok Stealthsuit
1x Coalition Relic
1x Erratic Portal
1x Crystal Shard
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Demonic Collusion
1x Beacon of Unrest
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Tidings
1x Torrent of Souls
1x Slave of Bolas
Instant: 15
1x Wild Ricochet
1x Reiterate
1x Rend Flesh
1x Pulse of the Grid
1x Prophetic Bolt
1x Crosis's Charm
1x Terminate
1x Cauldron Dance
1x Spinal Embrace
1x Shattering Pulse
1x Memory Plunder
1x Swerve
1x Soul Manipulation
1x Doom Blade
1x Capsize
Enchantment: 3
1x Enslave
1x Clout of the Dominus
Planeswalkers: 1
1x Liliana Vess
Land: 39
7x Island
7x Mountain
7x Swamp
1x Vivid Marsh
1x Vivid Crag
1x Vivid Creek
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Rakdos Carnarium
1x Izzet Boilerworks
1x Dimir Aqueduct
1x Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Temple of the False God
1x Grixis Panorama
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Rupture Spire
1x Akoum Refuge
1x Jwar Isle Refuge
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Crumbling Necropolis
EDIT: Took out a bunch, focusing a tad more on ETB effects (Gilded Drake) and recursion (through Erratic Portal and Crystal Shard) after Blackjack's comments.
Any help would be appreciated! Please, try to keep it as budget as possible, though.
Other than getting or changing focus,
I could suggest a few general budget considerations:
Doom Blade - The less conditional Eyeblights Ending or the new Go for the Throat.
Nettlevine Blight - Always disappointed me. Enslave is a really fun alternative.
Darksteel Ingot is good indest mana fix/accel
Expedition Map to go get any land.
Bojuka Bog to take out an abused graveyard.
NEEDS Crumbling Necropolis.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Ingot, Map, and Necropolis are all great ideas, but I'm not really sold on Bojuka Bog. I don't think there's enough graveyard interaction in my playgroup to make that necessary over Relic of Progenitus, which I was considering.
Also, it's true that this seems to be lacking a specific focus. I'd mainly be playing multiplayer, so I tried to incorporate enough of a control aspect to keep potential threats in check, while waiting for my general as the most likely win-con. If you think this requires a more specified focus, I'm all ears. My last EDH (Teneb) failed miserably, probably due to the lack of synergy with the rest of the deck. If there's a blatant Garza-plan that I'm missing, I'd love to hear it.
Thanks!
First, I have to ask if you're attached to Garza as the commander, as for the same mana cost and colors you could also use Thraximundar (which I see you have already). Thrax and Garzas abilities are much alike, but Thraxs' is much easier and effective to abuse, and he can deal with threats that Garza can't.
I do have some ideas either way, but before I go ahead in one direction I'd like to know for sure which commander to go with.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
The thing that makes Thrax so tough is you load your deck with sacrifice effects/grave pact effects/ and ways to profit from that besides Thrax. In a 4-player game, a simple "sac my own creature to x" with Grave Pact or Butcher of Malakir out makes thrax a likely 10/10 immediately swinging for 11 general dmg. A Barter in Blood by itself will likely make him a 14/14, throw in grave pact on top of that and you've probably swept everything off the board and are swinging for lethal damage in one shot.
Another fun thing about thrax is all the stealing and saccing. Red and Blue are so good at thieving. When you add in Blacks sacrifice power it gets absolutely brutal.
*** Obviously my leanings are toward Thrax, but my intent was to start off with trying to optimize and add a little focus to the current Garza build, and I still want to, but, and I apologize, I'm starting to nod off onto the keyboard. I have to get some sleep asap. I promise, as soon as I wake, I'll get back to this thread and see what we can come up with for the Vampire Queen.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
I appreciate the Thrax ideas, though. If I find myself in a more competitive Commander environment next year (college, woo), then I'd definitely prefer that. (It sounds very similar to a casual Savra/Golgari casual deck I run. I'd imagine Thrax gets real big real fast.)
So, if I understand the parameters were looking at here, we want a budget minded deck for mostly mulitplayer in a casual group that's not too "controllish", will satisfy the Timmy in the pilot and keep the game fun for the group while still being appropriately powerful/effective.
.... I just love doing this stuff
Start with the manabase:
What you've got already will do fine for casual multiplayer, but there are some good budget boosters to be had in this area. As far as density goes, you're running 44 total cards devoted to mana (5 artifact) which I think is good. If there is one thing I'd add above all else, it would probably be Coalition Relic (under $2). It's Fixing, Acceleration, and Storage for further acceleration all in one. It really is a great card.
Further upgrading lands as you go:
You may want to grab some of these lands as you go along or find them in trades. If you do end up getting more competitive and switching to Thrax for a commander eventually, they all maintain their useability and the manabase is always one of the best investments you can make.
As for what to cut to make room for the new lands, as you get into more competitve play, you'll start to see people killing off your Ravnica Bouncelands after you've already paid the bounce cost, and it really sets you back in tempo, so those would be the first to eventually go. The Panorama, then Rupture Spire would round out the non-basic cuts as you acquire upgrades.
Obviously the best fixing (other than the very expensive original dual lands) are the Ravnica Shocklands backed up by Fetchlands to go get them. The prices on these cards are getting pretty reasonable, but I'd guess they would still be a "consideration for later" for you.
The Shocklands:
- Watery Grave
- Blood Crypt
- Steam Vents
.And Scalding Tarn to fetch any of them. There's also Polluted Delta and Bloodstained Mire, but they are a lot more expensive.
There are also some good cipt fetchlands from Mirage that will only set you back about 25 cents each. They are Bad River and Rocky Tar Pit.
.
Other than those, you can always keep your eye out for:
Lorwyn Vivids: (50cents to a buck)
- Vivid Crag
- Vivid Marsh
- Vivid Creek
..
Painlands (about $1-2)
- Underground River
- Shivan Reef
- Sulfurous Springs
..
M10 Duals: (1.50-2.50)
- Drowned Catacomb
- Dragonskull Summit
..
Lorwyn Tribals ($1-$1.50) - Just view them as a non-tribal cipt land.
- Secluded Glen
- Auntie's Hovel
..
Non-budget but very good:
On to the creatures and other spells:
Garza's abilities aren't ones we can really build around or abuse very much, so that leaves us with basically a "good stuff" deck using the best her colors gives us access to and trying to create some synergy and efficiency within that framework rather than a single, focused strategy based on her (although we will get somewhat focused on something here in a bit).
First, the stuff I'm personally a bit "iffy" on. Suggesting cuts is always the hardest part for me, because you never know what "pet" cards someone is really attached to, or what particularly serves them well given what's in their own playgroup. And the fact that I haven't actually played with the deck means I could easily miss some interaction somewhere. With that said....
Godo - He doesn't have very many killer equipments to fetch, and no other samurai to untap and take another swing with. Though Unscythe, Fireshrieker and Whispersilk are good equips with some of your other creatures and Garza, he's basically serving as an overcosted/inefficient tutor and could easily be cut.
Herald of Leshrac - He's all by himself. No real synergy with anything else in the deck, and outside his ability he's weak. If powerful utility lands are giving you problems, then I'd suggest Strip Mine and Tectonic Edge, but Leshrac should probably go.
Ghastlord - I think you'll find that with his casting cost, he's much more difficult to cast in a 3-color deck. By the time you get the required colored mana to play him, you would likely be able to play something that has much more impact than he does.
Dragon Breath and Diplomatic Immunity - With the inherent drawback of auras (getting 2 for 1'd), and their effect being minimal in this deck, I'd suggest Lightning Greaves and another open slot as a replacement.
Barter in Blood - While great in a Thrax deck, you're probably not going to have very often when you'll want to sac 2 along with everyone else. Most of your creatures require a significant investment, and although you do have some recursion, it would still hurt quite a bit most of the time.
Just replacing those spells with some more potent ones will give you a nice boost, but I'm going to suggest a couple further cuts to leave enough room to expand on a theme that you've already started with the deck. I'll explain that after. Those would be Unscythe and Sun Droplet.
So, that's 8 cuts in all.
The theme that you've already started on that I mentioned is etb and recursion. You've got quite a bit going with creature recursion spells and Deathmantle already and Mnemonic Wall and Nucklavee are great at spell recursion. Fleshbags etb ability can be quite good as well, along with all your shapeshifter dudes. If we use those 8 open slots to enhance this strategy further, I think it might prove very effective.
Start off with Crystal Shard and Erratic Portal. Not used to bounce opposing creatures (although that can work if they've tapped out), but to bounce your own to protect them or to abuse their etb abilities again. Continually bouncing your wall or Nucklavee can keep your hand full of instants and sorceries for re-use. It also resets your shapeshifters for juicier targets. For instance, you can continually cast, bounce, and recast Duplicant to keep exiling opposing commanders or other fatties.
Now add Gilded Drake. At about 5 bucks he's not cheap, but he's not expensive either and he's an all star with recursion. Cast him, swapping control of him with one of your opponents big scary fatties. Then Crystal Shard, Erratic Portal or Capsize him back to your hand (it's owners hand, not controllers hand so theres nothing your opponent can do about it). Now you're permanently ahead one fatty and ready to do it again.
To what we've got, I'd add Mulldrifter for more insanely abuseable card draw. Mimic Vat, one of the best edh artifacts ever printed to further abuse etb abilities.
Great Vat Targets in your deck:
Clone - To kill another commander every turn at instant speed and swing with
Duplicant - Same as Clone
Draining Whelk - Perpetual counterspell
Izzet Chronarch - Get back every instant/sorcery you ever play
Mindleech - Hit someone every turn with it and cast one of their spells.
Nucklavee - Get back every inst/sorc spell you ever play
Wall - Get back every instant you play
Fleshbag - Make everyone sac a creature every turn
Hellkite and Drana Tokens are total finishers in the Vat.
Mulldrifter - Draw 2 cards every turn
Gilded Drake is probably the best of all - You steal a creature to keep every turn while they lose the token drake at the end of turn.
And that's not even counting what you can do with some of your opponents creatures in the Vat.
I think you get the picture.
Capsize is also insanely good with this strategy and helps keep your opponents threats under control as well.
That's 6 of the 8 slots filled. Add Lightning Greaves, and we've still got 1 slot left to fill with more recursion or removal/counterspell.
So the in/out breakdown I'm suggesting so far:
-Godo
-Herald
-Barter in Blood
-Unscythe
-Ghastlord
-Diplomatic Imm
-Dragon Breath
-Sun Droplet
+Gilded Drake
+Lightning Greaves
+Mulldrifter
+Crystal Shard
+Erratic Portal
+Mimic Vat
+Capsize
+ 1 more
And I'd seriously consider Glen Elendra Archmage for that last open slot. She's awesome anyway, but add some bounce and she becomes a perpetual Negate machine. Or something purely for Timmy like Stormtide Leviathan (20 cents)or Inkwell Leviathan ($1).
All of that can be done without even any trading for less than 20 bucks easily(Maybe a couple more with Glen Elendra). And probably even beefing up your manafixing as well. And I think the end result is a more focused and potent, but very interactive, fun deck. Every game will play out differently so it won't get boring either.
Now that I step back and look at it, it might be a little too Johnny/Control for what you want, so I may have failed my mission, but you could always balance that out a bit back toward Timmy with Inkwell and Stormtide Leviathans.
Or, at least that's my take on it.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Lightning Greaves also are amazing (no doubt about that) but I feel that the haste granted is only half as good, as Garza (main target) already has it. Still a great card, but with Godo out and no Artifact tutors, it's incredibility doesn't overcome the price. If I can get my hands on one, I'll throw it in, but I'm not planning on actually buying one.
Similar issue with Mimic Vat. This actually would be great here, but I'm an optimist and think that the price'll drop if I wait until SoM's been out a bit longer... maybe... And a friend of mine just got 2, so I'll see if he's willing to trade for one.
Glen Elendra Archmage just seems too pricey for me. I know she can have a great impact on games, but I feel like with her out on my board, I'm painting a huge target on my head. (No one likes the impending threat of a U: Negate.) Something I'd throw in if I found one on the street, but I personally don't see it as essential. I have a spare Stormtide Leviathan that I might throw in until I get something better, though.
Yeah, other than the issues in price, I love the recursion idea for the deck. Thanks a lot! =D
I don't want to sound greedy, but are there any cheaper temporary fill-ins for those costly bad-boys? Would Neurok Stealthsuit be such a bad substitute for the Greaves?
EDIT: Also just decided against Anger. In multiplayer, you're not going to necessarily want to swing each turn you can, and most of the things I would want to (Thrax, Garza) already have Haste.
I guess if you have a copy, the Stealthsuit would be ok as a stand-in for greaves especially since your 2 real baddies have haste already. But keep your eye out for one for trade, it's that 0 equip cost that really makes it amazing.
Try to get that Mimic Vat... it's under $4, and I honestly don't see it going down more than 50 cents for a LONG time. People will be using it somewhat in extended for the next 2 years, and it's always going to have a demand in casual and edh. In fact, I'm guessing the price of edh staples might go up a bit this summer when the official commander decks are released.
I don't know of any good replacements for Gilded Drake and Glen Elendra, but since your group is casual it's not like their required or anything. I'd try to find the Drake before anything though, as even if your group gets wise to him, there's not much they can do about it with all your recursion and instant speed bounce. In the meantime, I'd probably just throw a couple more removal instants or counterspells in those slots. Hinder is one of my favorite edh counterspells as it tucks generals into the library(and is only about 20cents). A simple Unsummon, though not great, could easily fill a slot also and provide you with more bounce that can easily be re-used because of Nucklavee and Mnemonic Wall.
I'm glad you like the ideas. Once you get things assembled and a few games with it, I'd like to know how it goes.
Cheers
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
If I find a Gilded Drake cheap, I'll get it, don't worry.
Also, now that I'm thinking about it, Cruel Ultimatum is seeming less and less multiplayer to me. It's difficult to cast (amount and color), and will probably tap me out as it's a sorcery, and basically sets the targeted opponent on my rear end, as well as anyone else who'll want to monopolize my tapped-out-ness. Any fill-ins for Cruel? (Maybe another reusable bounce, like Erratic Portal? Or do I have enough?)
I'd like to see a little more bounce in there.
CRAP! I forgot to mention another really good one. Cloudstone Curio (75 cents).
Venser, Shaper Savant is great and about $2.50. He's not only a great bounce target, he's also a bouncer.
Or you could always go with some simple instant bounce like Unsummon, Evacuation (sweeper), and Into the Roil. They aren't great, but if you can Wall/Nucklavee them back they get more attractive.
A quick note about Mulldrifter (or any evoke creature) and the bounce artifacts. You can cast him for his evoke cost 2U, he comes into play and his "draw 2 cards" ability and his "sacrifice mulldrifter" goes on the stack. With those still on the stack, you bounce him back to hand with Portal or Shard, you still get your two cards, the sacrifice fizzles due to no target, and you can do it again next turn. It even works with Cloudstone Curio because since you control all the triggers, you can decide in what order they go on the stack, so you put cloudtones triggered ability on last, it resolves first, same result.
If you don't have a lot of Black in your playgroup, the same trick that works with mulldrifter also works with Shriekmaw for repeatable creature kill. It's pretty tough, I'd highly recommend it if your environment is "target rich".
And of course, both Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter make great Mimic Vat targets. And Mimic Vat also works very well with Cloudstone Curio. You can create a token creature with Vat at instant speed and then use Cloudstones trigger to return another creature to your hand to avoid removal or just to further abuse etb abilities. See how once you get a focus, all the interactions/synergies start to intermix and boost each others power? I love finding stuff like that.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Turns out I think I am gonna be able to round up a Drake for the deck, so that's exciting. Venser SS would be fun, but I think I'll have invested enough into this deck to keep me satisfied for a while...
OP now has what I hope to have completed in about a week's time. I'll check back to let you know how it does!
I've had fun with EDH, but I'm not as adept at deck building in this format quite yet. Thanks again for all the help. I really appreciate it.