The only real combo in here is Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience (If there are others I haven't noticed, let me know), mostly because Leyline will help me out a bit, like with Hellfire, so I don't take so much damage.
I am not sure which would be best. If I get Doors down early, it can be good, but Coat can be good late game and for surprise damage. Also, Doors does boost my opponents, so if it fails to win me the game, all those Elf decks get boosted as well.
I had thought about it, and tested a bit. For a total of 5 mana for a 1/1, where I cannot bring it back from my graveyard if it were countered or I didn't have the buyback cost covered, it wasn't that great. Volrath's Laboratory seems better, as well as Soul Foundry. My friend suggest a pumping direct damage spell with all that black mana I have, like Consume Spirit.
Dude, you're called "Thorn", making a deck about "Bitey" little rats, and you aren't playing Thornbite Staff?
(Hint: Thornbite Staff + Marrow Gnawer = Win)
EDIT: Also, I run Lab Rats in my Marrow Gnawerer Rats deck and it's one of the most useful cards in it.
And with so many token rats you don't care about, Hex is incredible. Lessens the "drawback" of needing 6 targets.
In multiplayer it should be a staple [just don't target any blue creatures ;-) ] and with Grave Pact out you can hit two of your own, or whatever, to get past indestrucibility / shroud / protection.
And I've always had a pet love for the Altar of Shadows but it's quite mana-intensive. At least, at first ... it powers itself soon enough.
With Black Market (which your leyline nerfs, don't forget - apart from your own creatures, that is) it gets going even quicker.
I didn't even look at the Thornbite Staff, but that's a great addition. Now to clarify, the Thornbite Staff will untap its creature if I destroy a token? Or since they are a token, they never hit the graveyard, therefore no trigger?
Will have to think about what I would want to take out for the Altar of Shadows... or should I just not add the Consume Spirit. Both are quite costly, the Altar of Shadows can be doubled with Rings of Brighthearth though. I am not worried about the mana acceleration too much, but the creature removal is nice.
Necropotence I had considered, but this deck takes quite a bit of life lose, so plan on holding back on that one, and I already get sufficient card draw for most of the time.
Choice 1: He was mainly in there for 1/X creatures that died, but due to his own ability to not bring himself back with a wrath effect, I decided to remove him.
Choice 2: Oubliette... what was I thinking? Rather temporarily for 1 creature, permanently for 2 non-artifact creatures, and pay 5 life.
Choice 3: While the Prison might deal them damage when they play a spell, it might deal me damage as well, and they might destroy the artifact. This one also lets me see what they have in hand, and what to expect later, but I do need to know what to call. I guess it's common to know what deck is going to try what combo when I see them though, and stop it before it even has tracks.
Choice 4: A graveyard-to-play enchantment with weakening status, to an unearth, with possible chance to splice it (Extraction from choice 3 is an Arcane spell).
Let me know what you think!
I merged these two posts due to the double post nature of them. I thought that more humane due to the fact that people may have already responded to them, than potentially deleting posts.
~~ DC
I feel as if Cauldron Of Souls can be taken out as well as Ashen Powder and Hellfire.
I would consider putting in Reiver Demon, Rise from the grave and with all your acceleration potentially drain life, consume spirit and the such for some slight life gain.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cubes:
360 Powered Cube
400 Common/Uncommon Cube
Edh Decks:
Uril, The Miststalker RGW
Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G
Norin, The Wary R
Retired Generals
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa G
Maaga, Traitor To Mortals B
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails W
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs R
Savra, Queen of the Golgari BG
Stonebrow, Krosan Hero RG
Kemba, Kha Regent W
Captain Sisay GW
Darien, King of Kheldor W
Geth, Lord of the Vault B
Reiver Demon doesn't seem well at all. A total of 8 mana to kill 1 creature (non-artifact, non-black), and only if I play him from my hand, so pulling him from the graveyard isn't helpful at all.
Rise from the Grave is nice, when comparing it to Ashen Powder, though it is 1 more mana, I can target my own graveyard, and it becomes black, so those 'destroy all non-black' spells will spare the creature I take.
Drain Life = Consume Spirit, but there's not much focus on life around here at the local playing. True, I have to watch how low I get so I don't kill myself, but a little lifegain doesn't seem to be needed.
As for Hellfire, I feel it is indispensable. It is a wrath effect that will spare all my creatures, even the one I take with the suggested Rise from the Grave, and it clears out Uril, the Miststalker, a large problem around here.
Thank you for your advice, and I'll keep an eye open for the lifegaining spells, in case they do indeed become a new problem around here. And swapping out Ashen Powder for Rise from the Grave.
Reiver Demon doesn't seem well at all. A total of 8 mana to kill 1 creature (non-artifact, non-black), and only if I play him from my hand, so pulling him from the graveyard isn't helpful at all.
Rise from the Grave is nice, when comparing it to Ashen Powder, though it is 1 more mana, I can target my own graveyard, and it becomes black, so those 'destroy all non-black' spells will spare the creature I take.
Drain Life = Consume Spirit, but there's not much focus on life around here at the local playing. True, I have to watch how low I get so I don't kill myself, but a little lifegain doesn't seem to be needed.
As for Hellfire, I feel it is indispensable. It is a wrath effect that will spare all my creatures, even the one I take with the suggested Rise from the Grave, and it clears out Uril, the Miststalker, a large problem around here.
Thank you for your advice, and I'll keep an eye open for the lifegaining spells, in case they do indeed become a new problem around here. And swapping out Ashen Powder for Rise from the Grave.
Reiver Demon destroys all Non-black non artifact creatures not just a target. And he is a big flying fatty. Compared to taking damage from Hellfire is what I am saying ^_^.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cubes:
360 Powered Cube
400 Common/Uncommon Cube
Edh Decks:
Uril, The Miststalker RGW
Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G
Norin, The Wary R
Retired Generals
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa G
Maaga, Traitor To Mortals B
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails W
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs R
Savra, Queen of the Golgari BG
Stonebrow, Krosan Hero RG
Kemba, Kha Regent W
Captain Sisay GW
Darien, King of Kheldor W
Geth, Lord of the Vault B
Reiver Demon destroys all Non-black non artifact creatures not just a target. And he is a big flying fatty. Compared to taking damage from Hellfire is what I am saying ^_^.
All instead of targeted, that does sound better that I initially thought. I might look into removing something else for him, possibly, despite this being a rat deck, a rat. Kuro's Taken and Nezumi Ronin have proven a little less effective in this deck. I'm leaving for work now, so will have to reconsider this when I have time, but I might remove those 2 rats for the Reiver Demon and possibly Hall of the Bandit Lord.
Ok, wow, Sadistic Sacrament is going in, so Cranial Extraction is going out. For 1 less mana, 3 times the cards, and I don't have to name them, just search and pluck. Also, if I pay 7 more, so 10 total, I get 15 cards!!! The only draw back is I can't pluck from their hands or graveyards.
Other options for taking out are the Gnat Miser and Locust Miser, as they don't really do much late game, and if someone plans on having a lot of cards, they will have effects to have no handsize limit, thus making them plain rats. And Cauldron of Souls has more use now if I were to add in Death Pits of Rath; Infected Vermin and its ability are a good way to whipe the board, even of shroud creatures, and Cauldron of Souls could at least save some of mine.
Re-uploading the deck as it stands now. Most recent change was removing Patriarch's Bidding for the fact that I mostly will not be keeping my rats in the graveyard already, and added in Overwhelming Forces, a much better Decree of Pain, and very easily the costly card of the set for me... but I feel it's impact on the functionality of the deck cannot be denied. Just the other day, I barely won because top decked Decree of Pain, and luckily got a land to play a creature I drew, making sure an Elspeth didn't crack in a couple turns. It would have been better to keep the creatures I already had to ensure that better.
I need to remove 1, or maybe 2 cards from my deck. Was hoping to get some suggestions.
Thinking it over, I might want to keep Goryo's Vengeance and get rid of Profane Command. It would help to have me pull a creature with haste from the graveyard with Goryo's Vengeance and then Hatred him for a kill. I think I have enough kill and raise effects to not need Profane.
Again I merged these posts due to someone having responded to the thread between the time I first noticed the issue and the time I got around to dealing with the issue. I don't want to stifle discussion, so I decided to merge the posts instead of deleting them.
~~ DC
I will have to look into what has indeed happened to my Patriarch's Bidding from this list. It is in my list of cards that I needed to get, and traded to get it last Friday. I should be getting the final cards I need for this deck in a few days, and hope laying them all out will show where my error is.
1 Marrow-Gnawer
// Rat Specific Creatures (17)
1 Chittering Rats
1 Crypt Rats
1 Diseased Vermin
1 Infected Vermin
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Kuro's Taken
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Nezumi Ronin
1 Nezumi Shortfang
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Pestilence Rats
1 Ratcatcher
1 Ravenous Rats
1 Skullsnatcher
1 Stronghold Rats
1 Swarm of Rats
1 Throat Slitter
// Other Helpful Creatures (7)
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Balthor the Defiled
1 Chainer, Dementia Master
1 Coffin Queen
1 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
1 Reiver Demon
1 Solemn Simulacrum
// Creature Re-Animation (7)
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Necromancy
1 Living Death
1 Profane Command
1 Rise from the Grave
1 Victimize
1 Altar of Shadows
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cruel Revival
1 Damnation
1 Death Pits of Rath
1 Decree of Pain
1 Eradicate
1 Grave Pact
1 Hellfire
1 Overwhelming Forces
1 Ritual of the Machine
// Mana Acceleration (4)
1 Black Market
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Sol Ring
// Card Advantage (5)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Scroll Rack
1 Skullclamp
1 Sensei's Divining Top
// Other Effects (6)
1 Cauldron of Souls
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Riptide Replicator
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Soul Foundry
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Thornbite Staff
// Planeswalkers (1)
1 Liliana Vess
// Lands (37)
1 Arena
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Maze of Ith
1 Strip Mine
1 Swarmyard
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Urborg
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
23 Snow-Covered Swamp
Added: There is now another combo, Marrow-Gnawer and Thornbite Staff; Kudos to purple_pixie.
Noticed a combo: Soul Foundry used on Balthor the Defiled: 4 to start, then 4BBB for repeatable entire graveyard revival.
Coat of Arms
Door of Destinies
I am not sure which would be best. If I get Doors down early, it can be good, but Coat can be good late game and for surprise damage. Also, Doors does boost my opponents, so if it fails to win me the game, all those Elf decks get boosted as well.
I would probably take one out for another Tutor.
I had thought about it, and tested a bit. For a total of 5 mana for a 1/1, where I cannot bring it back from my graveyard if it were countered or I didn't have the buyback cost covered, it wasn't that great. Volrath's Laboratory seems better, as well as Soul Foundry. My friend suggest a pumping direct damage spell with all that black mana I have, like Consume Spirit.
I didn't even look at the Thornbite Staff, but that's a great addition. Now to clarify, the Thornbite Staff will untap its creature if I destroy a token? Or since they are a token, they never hit the graveyard, therefore no trigger?
Will have to think about what I would want to take out for the Altar of Shadows... or should I just not add the Consume Spirit. Both are quite costly, the Altar of Shadows can be doubled with Rings of Brighthearth though. I am not worried about the mana acceleration too much, but the creature removal is nice.
This will probably result in removing both Coat of Arms and Door of Destinies.
Ok, cool. That is what I had thought, thanks!
Posting a list of cards without a good reason for adding or removing those cards from a deck amounts to nothing greater than a spam warning
~~ DC
Well I have Grave Pact, Living Death, and Patriarch's Bidding in there already.
Necropotence I had considered, but this deck takes quite a bit of life lose, so plan on holding back on that one, and I already get sufficient card draw for most of the time.
As for Necromancy, it is better than Dance of the Dead, so will swap those.
Thanks for the suggestions!
I was looking though card choices, upon finding some cards here might not be good for this deck. *cough* Oubliette *cough* I had decided to remove 4 cards:
1: Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
2: Oubliette
3: Thought Prison
4: Animate Dead
And replace them with these 4:
1: Damnation
2: Ashes to Ashes
3: Cranial Extraction
4: Goryo's Vengeance
Choice 1: He was mainly in there for 1/X creatures that died, but due to his own ability to not bring himself back with a wrath effect, I decided to remove him.
Choice 2: Oubliette... what was I thinking? Rather temporarily for 1 creature, permanently for 2 non-artifact creatures, and pay 5 life.
Choice 3: While the Prison might deal them damage when they play a spell, it might deal me damage as well, and they might destroy the artifact. This one also lets me see what they have in hand, and what to expect later, but I do need to know what to call. I guess it's common to know what deck is going to try what combo when I see them though, and stop it before it even has tracks.
Choice 4: A graveyard-to-play enchantment with weakening status, to an unearth, with possible chance to splice it (Extraction from choice 3 is an Arcane spell).
Let me know what you think!
I merged these two posts due to the double post nature of them. I thought that more humane due to the fact that people may have already responded to them, than potentially deleting posts.
~~ DC
I would consider putting in Reiver Demon, Rise from the grave and with all your acceleration potentially drain life, consume spirit and the such for some slight life gain.
360 Powered Cube
400 Common/Uncommon Cube
Edh Decks:
Uril, The Miststalker RGW
Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G
Norin, The Wary R
Retired Generals
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa G
Maaga, Traitor To Mortals B
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails W
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs R
Savra, Queen of the Golgari BG
Stonebrow, Krosan Hero RG
Kemba, Kha Regent W
Captain Sisay GW
Darien, King of Kheldor W
Geth, Lord of the Vault B
Rise from the Grave is nice, when comparing it to Ashen Powder, though it is 1 more mana, I can target my own graveyard, and it becomes black, so those 'destroy all non-black' spells will spare the creature I take.
Drain Life = Consume Spirit, but there's not much focus on life around here at the local playing. True, I have to watch how low I get so I don't kill myself, but a little lifegain doesn't seem to be needed.
As for Hellfire, I feel it is indispensable. It is a wrath effect that will spare all my creatures, even the one I take with the suggested Rise from the Grave, and it clears out Uril, the Miststalker, a large problem around here.
Thank you for your advice, and I'll keep an eye open for the lifegaining spells, in case they do indeed become a new problem around here. And swapping out Ashen Powder for Rise from the Grave.
Reiver Demon destroys all Non-black non artifact creatures not just a target. And he is a big flying fatty. Compared to taking damage from Hellfire is what I am saying ^_^.
360 Powered Cube
400 Common/Uncommon Cube
Edh Decks:
Uril, The Miststalker RGW
Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G
Norin, The Wary R
Retired Generals
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa G
Maaga, Traitor To Mortals B
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails W
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs R
Savra, Queen of the Golgari BG
Stonebrow, Krosan Hero RG
Kemba, Kha Regent W
Captain Sisay GW
Darien, King of Kheldor W
Geth, Lord of the Vault B
All instead of targeted, that does sound better that I initially thought. I might look into removing something else for him, possibly, despite this being a rat deck, a rat. Kuro's Taken and Nezumi Ronin have proven a little less effective in this deck. I'm leaving for work now, so will have to reconsider this when I have time, but I might remove those 2 rats for the Reiver Demon and possibly Hall of the Bandit Lord.
Hall of the Bandit Lord is also for mana, I do only have 34 land... but I guess additional Snow-Covered Swamps would be better.
Other options for taking out are the Gnat Miser and Locust Miser, as they don't really do much late game, and if someone plans on having a lot of cards, they will have effects to have no handsize limit, thus making them plain rats. And Cauldron of Souls has more use now if I were to add in Death Pits of Rath; Infected Vermin and its ability are a good way to whipe the board, even of shroud creatures, and Cauldron of Souls could at least save some of mine.
So how do these changes sound;
In:
Death Pits of Rath
Reiver Demon
Sadistic Sacrament
Snow-Covered Swamp
Out:
Cranial Extraction
Gnat Miser
Locust Miser
Rotting Rats
I had to look into adding more land, so taking out a few cards, and thinking of removing:
Duplicant
Imprison
For 2 more Snow-Covered Swamps.
Due to Lake of the Dead not hindering my Extraplanar Lens and Gauntlet of Power, I am swapping it out for another Snow-Covered Swamp.
1 Marrow-Gnawer
// Rat Specific Creatures (17)
1 Chittering Rats
1 Crypt Rats
1 Diseased Vermin
1 Infected Vermin
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Kuro's Taken
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Nezumi Ronin
1 Nezumi Shortfang
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Pestilence Rats
1 Ratcatcher
1 Ravenous Rats
1 Skullsnatcher
1 Stronghold Rats
1 Swarm of Rats
1 Throat Slitter
// Other Helpful Creatures (7)
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Balthor the Defiled
1 Chainer, Dementia Master
1 Coffin Queen
1 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
1 Reiver Demon
1 Solemn Simulacrum
// Creature Re-Animation (7)
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Necromancy
1 Living Death
1 Profane Command
1 Rise from the Grave
1 Victimize
1 Altar of Shadows
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cruel Revival
1 Damnation
1 Death Pits of Rath
1 Decree of Pain
1 Eradicate
1 Grave Pact
1 Hellfire
1 Overwhelming Forces
1 Ritual of the Machine
// Mana Acceleration (4)
1 Black Market
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Sol Ring
// Card Advantage (5)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Scroll Rack
1 Skullclamp
1 Sensei's Divining Top
// Other Effects (6)
1 Cauldron of Souls
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Riptide Replicator
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Soul Foundry
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Thornbite Staff
// Planeswalkers (1)
1 Liliana Vess
// Lands (37)
1 Arena
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Maze of Ith
1 Strip Mine
1 Swarmyard
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Urborg
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
23 Snow-Covered Swamp
Re-uploading the deck as it stands now. Most recent change was removing Patriarch's Bidding for the fact that I mostly will not be keeping my rats in the graveyard already, and added in Overwhelming Forces, a much better Decree of Pain, and very easily the costly card of the set for me... but I feel it's impact on the functionality of the deck cannot be denied. Just the other day, I barely won because top decked Decree of Pain, and luckily got a land to play a creature I drew, making sure an Elspeth didn't crack in a couple turns. It would have been better to keep the creatures I already had to ensure that better.
I need to remove 1, or maybe 2 cards from my deck. Was hoping to get some suggestions.
1 Marrow-Gnawer
// Rat Specific Creatures (17)
1 Chittering Rats
1 Crypt Rats
1 Diseased Vermin
1 Infected Vermin
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Kuro's Taken
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Nezumi Ronin
1 Nezumi Shortfang
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Pestilence Rats
1 Ratcatcher
1 Ravenous Rats
1 Skullsnatcher
1 Stronghold Rats
1 Swarm of Rats
1 Throat Slitter
// Other Helpful Creatures (7)
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Balthor the Defiled
1 Chainer, Dementia Master
1 Coffin Queen
1 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
1 Reiver Demon
1 Solemn Simulacrum
// Creature Re-Animation (7)
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Necromancy
1 Living Death
1 Profane Command
1 Rise from the Grave
1 Victimize
1 Altar of Shadows
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cruel Revival
1 Damnation
1 Death Pits of Rath
1 Decree of Pain
1 Eradicate
1 Grave Pact
1 Hellfire
1 Overwhelming Forces
1 Ritual of the Machine
// Mana Acceleration (4)
1 Black Market
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Sol Ring
// Card Advantage (5)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Scroll Rack
1 Skullclamp
1 Sensei's Divining Top
// Other Effects (6)
1 Cauldron of Souls
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Riptide Replicator
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Soul Foundry
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Thornbite Staff
// Planeswalkers (1)
1 Liliana Vess
// Lands (37)
1 Arena
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Maze of Ith
1 Strip Mine
1 Swarmyard
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Urborg
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vesuva
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
23 Snow-Covered Swamp
Help, please.
Thinking it over, I might want to keep Goryo's Vengeance and get rid of Profane Command. It would help to have me pull a creature with haste from the graveyard with Goryo's Vengeance and then Hatred him for a kill. I think I have enough kill and raise effects to not need Profane.
Again I merged these posts due to someone having responded to the thread between the time I first noticed the issue and the time I got around to dealing with the issue. I don't want to stifle discussion, so I decided to merge the posts instead of deleting them.
~~ DC
There are also some tutors that I believe should be added: Beseech the Queen, Vampiric Tutor, and imperial seal if you have the money to lay for it if this deck if RL.
Avatar and Banner by Krackshot
DCI Rules Advisor
I will have to look into what has indeed happened to my Patriarch's Bidding from this list. It is in my list of cards that I needed to get, and traded to get it last Friday. I should be getting the final cards I need for this deck in a few days, and hope laying them all out will show where my error is.
I do agree with the removal of Helm of Obedience and Leyline of the Void, and may add in Cairn Wanderer or Skeletal Changeling, but again, will have to see just how many cards I am off by.