This is my first foray into the world of EDH! basically, I looked through all the Jhoira decks already listed (KingAlanI, Rachel Rose, TheRedViper), as well as the relevant cards in the Top 25 cards thread, analyzed the frequency of each card, and used that list to build my deck from. I'm sure there's a lot I could fix with this, but here's my firstsecond third draft of the deck!
Urza lands, temple of the false gods, ancient tomb, tolaria west would be good additions imo. Gilded lotus, mana vault and grim monolith as well. would get you alot more mana and make things a little more explosive.
The only time I'd ever consider Urza lands in EDH is for my Karn deck (has been assembled once, but that's it). Outside of that, they mess up color and make Ruination better. Other lands and artifact accel are great though.
Fireball and Demonfire seem poor choices (rarely hellbent, and Ghitu Fire at least is a surprise), as are the cards you've included for removing time counters (except for Fury Charm, that's decent). I can't help but think that a Loxodon Warhammer would be great on any number of your creatures. I have been a fan of Molten Disaster and Fault Line in my red decks (also Starstorm for a softer hit and to snag fliers), and Scourge of Kher Ridges would be a good way to synergize with Jhoira for similar effect. I'd also recommend Viashino Heritic (he's scary in EDH!).
Gifts Ungiven got banned, but Intuition's not a terrible replacement. I really like the idea of Niv with so many wheels and Forks.
Fireball and Demonfire seem poor choices (rarely hellbent, and Ghitu Fire at least is a surprise), as are the cards you've included for removing time counters (except for Fury Charm, that's decent).
I'm also planning a Jhoira deck and was wondering why cards that manipulate time counters are a bad idea. Four turns is a long time to wait for something when you can have it in less.
In the case of (non-land) mana accel, should they replace some lands (or other mana accel) or be added in addition to the current mana base?
As for time counter manipulation, are you saying get rid of Rift Elemental, Jhoira's Timebug, (Paradox Haze), and Clockspinning?
Ghitu's Fire is good, I wonder why it wasn't in any deck list I copied from... Anyway, when I have time I'll make more alterations to the list (meaning do stuff not solely based on existing lists).
First off, I think Sunder should be added for another mass land removal effect. It's quite cheap (for EDH standards), and instant speed to boot.
If your playgroup likes to play with a lot of nonbasics, Detritivore is definately a possiblity having him munch on a few important lands before he becomes a decently-sized body.
I also love Bribery. Taking someone's best creature is good stuff for this deck when you have many ways to blow up lands en-masse.
Boom // Bust is also another mass LD card that can also blow up a critical single land in an emergency. Then there's Jokulhaups as a cheaper Obliterate.
Hey guys, I appreciate these suggestions for what to put in, but how about what to take out for them?
A few notes though:
1) I figured having a few mass removal and extra turn cards would be nice, but I don't want to focus too much on that type of thing.
2) RE: Detritivore (an other nonbasic hate): The friend's I'll be playing with most likely won't have enough nonbasics for it to matter. One is making mono-black, so he just needs like a million swamps, and the other just don't have enough of a budget. (Though most likely we will end up proxying stuff.)
If you don't want to focus on more mass LD and extra turns, what about focusing more on messing with your opponents' spells? Swerve is a nice, cheap Deflection, and Misdirection is a free one. Redirecting spells can also lead to some nice diplomacy situations in a decent-sized multiplayer setting.
Have the X burn spells been working out well for you? This deck isn't too great at abusing X spells. Suspending them is pretty pointless, and the deck itself doesn't make a ton of mana to begin with. Those would be the first cards I would take out of the deck, but that's just me.
Actually, after further consideration, I think I might like more mass destruction. Extra turns I still don't care about. And yeah, I think the X spells should probably go. (I haven't actually been able to test it at all yet.) I'll work on it some more and post a revised list later.
If you do want some kind of X spell to abuse, try Flameblast Dragon. He's not too bad to hardcast if you can't suspend him for some reason, he's a big flyer in combat, and he also is a reusable Blaze on a body.
I would consider loosing the Trinket Mage cause your only 2 targets are your sensei's divining top and sol ring, doesn't seem quite worth it. If you want to mess with permanents in play you can use Thieves' Auction with Brand, cast the Thieves' Auction in a multi-player choose to get back NONE of your permanents ( if your general is in play before you cast it get her 1st, otherwise pick a general in play first)then when the Auction is over cast Brand on the stuff you own andthen you can have your cake and eat it too!
Cutting Trinket Mage would be a big mistake. I play with him in virtually every blue EDH deck and I never regret it. He is your 2nd Sol Ring, and getting an early to mid-game Sol Ring is amazing to accelerate you. Sol Ring is so good in this deck, and Trinket Mage increases your chances of getting it.
If you own it, you can also get Mana Crypt as well so you are guaranteed to have 5 mana on your next turn, which means you be able to suspend at least one card with Jhoira if she resolves. Mana Crypt is essentially a free Sol Ring. Getting Bolted isn't as bad with 40 life totals, and it isn't guaranteed to happen.
Basically, Trinket Mage is the blue version of mana ramp, providing more consistency to the deck.
So you're saying to keep in Trinket Mage just so he can fetch Sol Ring? I'll keep that in mind, but he's still on my list of things-to-cut-if-I-don't-have-enough-space.
On another note, since you're already contributing a lot, Surging Chaos, what is your opinion on things that manipulate time counters in a Jhoira deck?
I'll probably have time to update my list tomorrow...
So you're saying to keep in Trinket Mage just so he can fetch Sol Ring? I'll keep that in mind, but he's still on my list of things-to-cut-if-I-don't-have-enough-space.
For the most part, yeah. Jhoira can be a bit slow, and Trinket Mage gives the deck a nice boost in acceleration. I'm also trying to get a Mana Crypt to make the deck faster, which Trinket Mage also fetches. You could also play a Seat of the Synod and/or a Great Furnace if for some reason you need a land drop or you're hurting in red mana. Getting Top is also really good as well.
On another note, since you're already contributing a lot, Surging Chaos, what is your opinion on things that manipulate time counters in a Jhoira deck?
I'll probably have time to update my list tomorrow...
For some of the less-obvious inclusions other than Clockspinning:
Jhoira's Timebug: Not as good as Clockspinning because it's a permanent, but it doesn't draw too much hate for removal in a multiplayer setting because there is usually more threating stuff on the table. Like Clockspinning, I love how you have the option of putting time counters back on your permanents to keep a big spell from not hitting the table yet for some reason (maybe there's a Disk or Oblivion Stone in play) or to put time counters back on Aeon Chronicler and Detritivore to reuse their effects.
Paradox Haze: Good, good card. Gets suspended stuff into play MUCH faster than normal. Extra upkeeps can also screw someone else up as well in random situations should it arise, but obviously this will be very rare.
Savor the Moment: Sounds good in practice, but I haven't tested it fully. It gives you another turn to unsuspend stuff, another draw phase, and another land drop.
Fury Charm: Not usually a dead card since you can just as easily get rid of a problematic artifact.
After that, I play with a few extra turn effects that are powerful on their own with the benefit of getting suspended stuff into play another turn quicker. Time Warp is self-explanatory, and I'm also messing around with Walk the Aeons for another extra turn card that turns into more extra turns with excess Islands in play.
It's definately good to have some time manipulation in the deck, but I don't like to overdo it. If you want, you can substitute a lot of the time manipulation in the deck for more mass LD like Sunder, Boom // Bust, Jokulhaups, and even something like Tectonic Break. Most EDH decks completely fall apart when all their lands go down the drain, leaving them helpless to deal with incoming suspended bombs. In this case, it wouldn't matter a lot if you used time manipulation cards to get the suspended cards into play faster because your opponents are already landless and will probably just watch you unsuspend your cards into play.
If you want to make the deck more casual friendly though and keep yourself from getting hated out of the playgroup, then you can play with more time manipulation over a lot of the mass LD and focus more on cheating the big spells into play quickly. I would still keep an Apocalypse, Obliterate, and a Decree of Annihilation in the deck as your only mass-LD effects though even if I went this latter route. They're good "panic buttons" to have if you feel someone at the table is going to do something really devasating.
I made a few changes to the list, but I didn't really change that much because a lot already seemed pretty solid as it was. Here's the list of changes:
-1 Island, -1 Mountain, +1 Seat of the Synod, +1 Great Furnace
Surging Chaos mentioned Trinket Mage could fetch these. How could I forget!
-1 Mind Stone, +1 Gilded Lotus
Better mana accel.
-1 Gifts Ungiven because it was banned.
-1 Fireball, -1 Banefire, -1 Demonfire because I don't think X spells are good for Jhoira.
+1 Timebender because I think he could do some sick stuff with Riptide Lab.
+1 Jokulhaups for more lol kill everything.
+1 Opportunity for more card draw.
+1 Bribery because how could I forget Bribery?
I'm sure I could still tighten it up some more. Maybe I should swap some board sweepers with land sweepers, because I'm not sure how I feel about messing up and sweeping my fatties (or maybe I should lrn2play the deck). I think Apocalypse and Decree might be safest to cut, since I don't think I want to lose my hand (Aeon Chronicler).
I like Walk the Aeons, it seems especially good when you're gonna be wiping your lands anyway. I could probably use that somewhere.
As for Relic and Crypt, my friends aren't going to make any gy based decks so they are pointless. Also, I fail to see the need for a Pithing Needle if everything is singleton (yes you could say use it for their general, but as of right now, I know my friends are making Rofellos and Uril, so that is pointless too). I suppose I could use those for sideboard if necessary.
I think I might be overdoing it right now with Time counter manipulation. I took nothing out and even added 1 more. Opinions on the weakest link(s) in this regard? Choices are Rift Elemental, Timebender, Jhoira's Timebug, Paradox Haze, and Clockspinning.
Might try to cut a couple of things for Deja Vu, Relearn, and Windfall.
Also, most likely I will have to cut Volcanic Island and the fetches due to budget reasons. Are there any other (viable) RU duals that I'm missing? Otherise I guess I will replace them with Islands and Mountains. (Maybe Grixis Panorama [would RBU fetch be allowed in an RB deck?], Terramorphic Expanse, Terrain Generator as pseudo-fetches.)
I don't really like Pithing Needle because of the highlander nature of the format. Chalice also loses a lot of its effectiveness due to the higher mana curve of EDH. If those guys work for you though, more power to you.
A Relic or Crypt sounds good as tutor targets though. Someone will be abusing the graveyard in some manner. I would give Relic the nod because it can constantly attack someone's graveyard if you don't want it to activate, it nukes everyone's graveyard, and it cantrips. It's more or less situational though and it's not worth it if no one is really abusing their graveyards.
I could still tighten it up some more. Maybe I should swap some board sweepers with land sweepers, because I'm not sure how I feel about messing up and sweeping my fatties (or maybe I should lrn2play the deck). I think Apocalypse and Decree might be safest to cut, since I don't think I want to lose my hand (Aeon Chronicler).
If you don't have any time manipulation when suspending stuff with Jhoira, you generally want to go:
- suspend board sweepers first
- then suspend your big threats
If you're in a situation where you can hardcast a sweeper, then just suspend your big guys first before firing off your Obliterate/Apoc/whatever obviously.
Apocalypse, along with Decree and Obliterate, should NEVER be cut from the deck. Yes, losing your hand is not a minor drawback. However, Apocalypse more than makes up for what it does. It's a complete board reset. Everything dies, including enchantments and planeswalkers that Decree, Obliterate, and Jokulhaups leave behind. Exiling everything also prevents any indestructability, persist, or any other graveyard shenanigans from happening. It also costs 5 mana, making it quite easy to hardcast for more of a surprise. Try to suspend as much as you can with Jhoira before casting Apocalypse to mitigate the drawback of discarding your hand.
Decree is good because it's an instant speed and uncounterable Armageddon. I usually cycle Decree instead of suspending it because it's so effective against blue variants, but its normal method is clearly game over if that resolves. Again, if you have one or two powerful spells suspended, just destroying lands is effective enough to disable everyone else from what they're doing and leaving them watching as they get beat down by assorted big creatures.
I think I might be overdoing it right now with Time counter manipulation. I took nothing out and even added 1 more. Opinions on the weakest link(s) in this regard? Choices are Rift Elemental, Timebender, Jhoira's Timebug, Paradox Haze, and Clockspinning.
The weakest of the bunch would be Timebender. Good catch on its synergy with Riptide Lab though. If you want more focus on time manipulation, you can also consider Timecrafting.
Also, most likely I will have to cut Volcanic Island and the fetches due to budget reasons. Are there any other (viable) RU duals that I'm missing? Otherise I guess I will replace them with Islands and Mountains. (Maybe Grixis Panorama [would RBU fetch be allowed in an RB deck?], Terramorphic Expanse, Terrain Generator as pseudo-fetches.)
Yes, you can play with Grixis Panorama. Since it only produces colorless mana, it's fair game.
Add City of Brass, since the pain from it is not too relevant with 40 points of life.
Reflecting Pool is another good, painless mana fixer. Expensive price-wise, but if you have one laying around somewhere, I would definately add it.
Caldera Lake perhaps? There aren't a ton of good mana fixers for enemy colored spells.
A Relic or Crypt sounds good as tutor targets though. Someone will be abusing the graveyard in some manner. I would give Relic the nod because it can constantly attack someone's graveyard if you don't want it to activate, it nukes everyone's graveyard, and it cantrips. It's more or less situational though and it's not worth it if no one is really abusing their graveyards.
Well, like I said, I know for a fact none of my friends will abuse their yards. Maybe if I start playing with a larger group of people (ie. people at my card store instead of just my small group of friends) it might be worth considering more.
Yes, you can play with Grixis Panorama. Since it only produces colorless mana, it's fair game.
Yeah, I realized after I posted that it doesn't have anywhere in the text, it just mentions the word "Swamp"... which is the same as the fetch lands already in the list. So if the fetches are legal, then the Panoramas should be legal too. Efficiency... is another issue.
Add City of Brass, since the pain from it is not too relevant with 40 points of life.
Reflecting Pool is another good, painless mana fixer. Expensive price-wise, but if you have one laying around somewhere, I would definately add it.
Caldera Lake perhaps? There aren't a ton of good mana fixers for enemy colored spells.
City of Brass is definitely something I can consider. Reflecting Pool, but that will have to wait until after it drops in price. Caldera Lake is pretty bad... but it's a possibility I suppose.
I realized I forgot to put in Windfall and things like Relearn and Deja Vu. Trying to think of 2 or 3 things to cut for these (with Windfall being top priority and the others being less of a concern).
...If my goal is to sweep everything and then suspend in huge guys, do I really need Insurrection? (Or is it like a Plan B sort of thing?)
If you want to focus on more mass destruction spells with suspended goodness coming in after, then I think it wouldn't too bad to take out Insurrection. Extra mass destruction spells like Jokulhaups, hell, even Sunder greatly maims the entire table to the point of going back to square one while scrambling to stop your suspended spells.
For you, I guess it depends how many people are playing at a time and what generals they are using since Insurrection ranges from annoying to backbreaking spell. Insurrection can be a good weapon to have in your back pocket at a big table when things turn sour.
Just got back from my friend's house who I was gonna grab a Sol Ring and Wheel of Fortune from. Unfortunately, we couldn't find his Wheel of Fortune. Fortunately, I found some other goodies: Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Memory Jar, and Wildfire. (He stopped playing years ago, so he doesn't mind me taking his cards.) Also, I got a Winds of Change but I don't know if it's worth putting in.
what about Clone and Vesuvan Shapeshifter? they're perfect anti-generals when they hit the board. you can also use them to double your fatties.
I had the impression that generals in EDH are immune to the legendary rule. When you play Clone, for example, it will kill the clone but not the general.
I just played my first actual EDH games the other night against my friend's Uril deck, which is surprisingly good for being basically a pile. I was missing a few cards from my deck (namely Trinket Mage, Brainstorm, and Jokulhaups). Thoughts:
0) I need like 20 more dice to keep track of suspended things.
1) Hand resets are amazing.
2) Time manipulation is pro. Rift Elemental and Fury Charm are good, Timebender and Clockspinning not so much, didn't get a chance to use Jhoira's Timebug (only played it once as a chumper) and Paradox Haze.
3) RE: my comment on replacing Jokulhaups with Wildfire. Will have to reconsider. I definitely need to hit the [stupid huge number]/[even bigger number] Uril that's staring at my empty board while my fatties are suspending in (stupid troll shroud!)
4) There was never a time I actually wanted to play Relearn or Deja Vu.
Will post a newer updated deck list after all my cards come in and I sort through the stuff I want to keep.
Updated the decklist (first post) after about a month because I just took this to an EDH tourney (and got 6th, w00t!). The biggest change was cutting a lot of stuff for more fatties because I had trouble getting big guys to suspend previously. So let's go through the changes.
Lands:
- fetches, - Volcanic Island, +3 Mountain, + Ancient Tomb, + Wasteland
Changed due to money and time constraints. Moving on...
Creatures:
- Timebender, - Rift Elemental, + Bloodfire Colossus, + Clone, + Dragon Mage, + Dragon Tyrant, + Flameblast Dragon, + Pestermite, + Platinum Angel, + Sphinx Ambassador
Timebender was just bad, don't know why I chose to keep Timebug over Rift Elemental, I'll probably switch those (or at least put Rifty back in), tons of new fatties, Pestermite was an afterthought but I did manage to get off Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite in a game (not in the tourney) - and now I want to put in Curiosity for Niv-Mizzet.
Artifacts:
- Izzet Signet, - Mind's Eye, + Mana Crypt, + Mana Vault
Crypt and Vault are pretty obvious adds, Signet doesn't help much and I really hated Mind's Eye. (Actually, in the tourney I took out Vault for a Gamble for some reason... not the exact logic going on at the time but that's what it technically ended up being)
Enchantments:
- Paradox Haze, - Future Sight
Didn't like either of these...
Instants:
- Brainstorm, - Clockspinning, - Desertion, + Evacuation
Clockspinning was just bad, ended up not liking Brainstorm or Ponder for this deck, and Desertion just didn't help ever. Evacuation is pretty good, want to fit Sunder in there somewhere too.
Sorceries:
- Ponder, - Concentrate, - Tidings, - Jokulhaups, - Blatant Thievery, + Boom // Bust, + Walk the Aeons, + Windfall
Again, didn't like Ponder. Concentrate and Tidings were hard to cut, but I needed space. Jokulhaups was out only because the tourney banned it. Never used Blatant Thievery. Boom // Bust, Walk the Aeons, and Windfall are for extra copies of those effects.
Quick tournament report:
Game 1: Sliver Overlord
Stuck on 2 lands for most of the game. Was getting beaten down by a Muscle Sliver, the Sliver that makes them unblockable by nonslivers, and Vampiric Sliver. Eventually got some mana sources and lands, played Jhoira, and suspended Aeon Chronicler and Arcanis (which is just sick by the way). Luckily, he got stuck on 4 lands while I kept getting stuff and hardcast a Decree of Annihilation at 1 life the turn before Chronicler and Arcanis come in (yeah, really). He's still at 40 life at this point in time, and I just beat him to a pulp with Chronicler being pumped by Arcanis - he can't pull a land for the rest of the game.
1 - 0
Game 2: Oona, Queen of the Fae
This match went a lot better... in the beginning. I get him down to 14 before he pulls out Grim Monolith + Power Artifact and mills me for 2 million.
1 - 1
Game 3: Uril, the Miststalker
I Hinder his Uril and he immediately scoops. Boring. Note: here the judge says that we're using the house rule where you can choose to exile your general if they get put anywhere other than the battlefield; I call BS because we were supposed to be using official rules, but my opponent doesn't change his mind about scooping.
2 - 1
T8 was two pods of 4 player games, with the top 2 in each game playing another 4 player game for T4.
Game 4: Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund; Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary; Dralnu, Lich Lord
I got Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in opening hand, but no color producing lands and I keep it because I don't like winning. Luckily, everyone leaves me alone because I'm not doing anything, but when I finally get an Island and a Mountain, I play Jhoira and immediately suspend Apocalypse and Time Stretch. Obviously a bad move, but I just wanted to do it for the lulz, as they say. I get immediately hated off the table.
T4 was Rofellos, Dralnu, Horde of Notions, and another Jhoira (there were a total of 3 at the tourney!).
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firstsecondthird draft of the deck!1 Jhoira of the Ghitu
Lands (38)
13 Island
13 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Great Furnace
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Shivan Reef
1 Steam Vents
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
Creatures (22)
1 Aeon Chronicler
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Arcanis the Omnipotent
1 Bloodfire Colossus
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Clone
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Deep-Sea Kraken
1 Dragon Mage
1 Dragon Tyrant
1 Flameblast Dragon
1 Greater Gargadon
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Jhoira's Timebug
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
1 Pestermite
1 Platinum Angel
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Sphinx Ambassador
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Trinket Mage
1 Jace Beleren
Artifacts (7)
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Thran Dynamo
Enchantments (1)
1 Rhystic Study
Instants (17)
1 Capsize
1 Cryptic Command
1 Evacuation
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Fork
1 Fury Charm
1 Hinder
1 Impulse
1 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Opportunity
1 Reiterate
1 Spin Into Myth
1 Twincast
1 Wild Ricochet
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Apocalypse
1 Boom // Bust
1 Bribery
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Insurrection
1 Obliterate
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Stretch
1 Walk the Aeons
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
13x Island
10x Mountain
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace
1x Volcanic Island
1x Steam Vents
1x Shivan Reef
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Izzet Boilerworks
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Academy Ruins
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Riptide Laboratory
1x Strip Mine
General (1):
1x Jhoira of the Ghitu
Creature (16):
1x Timebender
1x Rift Elemental
1x Jhoira's Timebug
1x Trinket Mage
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Aeon Chronicler
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Arcanis the Omnipotent
1x Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Akroma, Angel of Fury
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Deep-Sea Kraken
1x Greater Gargadon
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Jace Beleren
Artifact (7):
1x Sol Ring
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Izzet Signet
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Mind's Eye
1x Gilded Lotus
Enchantment (3):
1x Rhystic Study
1x Paradox Haze
1x Future Sight
Instant (18):
1x Brainstorm
1x Clockspinning
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Impulse
1x Twincast
1x Fork
1x Fury Charm
1x Capsize
1x Forbid
1x Hinder
1x Intuition
1x Reiterate
1x Cryptic Command
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Wild Ricochet
1x Desertion
1x Force of Will
1x Spin Into Myth
1x Ancestral Vision
1x Wheel of Fate
1x Ponder
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Concentrate
1x Tidings
1x Apocalypse
1x Bribery
1x Time Spiral
1x Opportunity
1x Jokulhaups
1x Blatant Thievery
1x Insurrection
1x Obliterate
1x Decree of Annihilation
1x Time Stretch
14x Island
11x Mountain
1x Volcanic Island
1x Steam Vents
1x Shivan Reef
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Izzet Boilerworks
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Academy Ruins
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Riptide Laboratory
1x Strip Mine
General (1):
1x Jhoira of the Ghitu
Creature (15):
1x Rift Elemental
1x Jhoira's Timebug
1x Trinket Mage
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Aeon Chronicler
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Arcanis, the Omnipotent
1x Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Akroma, Angel of Fury
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Deep-Sea Kraken
1x Greater Gargadon
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Jace Beleren
Artifact (7):
1x Sol Ring
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Izzet Signet
1x Mind Stone
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Mind's Eye
Enchantment (3):
1x Rhystic Study
1x Paradox Haze
1x Future Sight
Instant (19):
1x Brainstorm
1x Clockspinning
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Impulse
1x Twincast
1x Fork
1x Fury Charm
1x Capsize
1x Forbid
1x Hinder
1x Intuition
1x Reiterate
1x Cryptic Command
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Wild Ricochet
1x Desertion
1x Force of Will
1x Spin Into Myth
1x Ancestral Vision
1x Wheel of Fate
1x Ponder
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Concentrate
1x Tidings
1x Apocalypse
1x Time Spiral
1x Blatant Thievery
1x Insurrection
1x Obliterate
1x Decree of Annihilation
1x Time Stretch
1x Banefire
1x Demonfire
1x Fireball
So, any suggestions on what to add in and what to take out? Thanks!
ゆっくりしていってね!!!
Fireball and Demonfire seem poor choices (rarely hellbent, and Ghitu Fire at least is a surprise), as are the cards you've included for removing time counters (except for Fury Charm, that's decent). I can't help but think that a Loxodon Warhammer would be great on any number of your creatures. I have been a fan of Molten Disaster and Fault Line in my red decks (also Starstorm for a softer hit and to snag fliers), and Scourge of Kher Ridges would be a good way to synergize with Jhoira for similar effect. I'd also recommend Viashino Heritic (he's scary in EDH!).
Gifts Ungiven got banned, but Intuition's not a terrible replacement. I really like the idea of Niv with so many wheels and Forks.
I'm also planning a Jhoira deck and was wondering why cards that manipulate time counters are a bad idea. Four turns is a long time to wait for something when you can have it in less.
WRGUBScion of the Ur-DragonWRGUB
UChisei, Heart of OceansU
URJhoira of the GhituUR
BShirei, Shizo's CaretakerB
In the case of (non-land) mana accel, should they replace some lands (or other mana accel) or be added in addition to the current mana base?
As for time counter manipulation, are you saying get rid of Rift Elemental, Jhoira's Timebug, (Paradox Haze), and Clockspinning?
Ghitu's Fire is good, I wonder why it wasn't in any deck list I copied from... Anyway, when I have time I'll make more alterations to the list (meaning do stuff not solely based on existing lists).
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If your playgroup likes to play with a lot of nonbasics, Detritivore is definately a possiblity having him munch on a few important lands before he becomes a decently-sized body.
I also love Bribery. Taking someone's best creature is good stuff for this deck when you have many ways to blow up lands en-masse.
Boom // Bust is also another mass LD card that can also blow up a critical single land in an emergency. Then there's Jokulhaups as a cheaper Obliterate.
A few notes though:
1) I figured having a few mass removal and extra turn cards would be nice, but I don't want to focus too much on that type of thing.
2) RE: Detritivore (an other nonbasic hate): The friend's I'll be playing with most likely won't have enough nonbasics for it to matter. One is making mono-black, so he just needs like a million swamps, and the other just don't have enough of a budget. (Though most likely we will end up proxying stuff.)
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Have the X burn spells been working out well for you? This deck isn't too great at abusing X spells. Suspending them is pretty pointless, and the deck itself doesn't make a ton of mana to begin with. Those would be the first cards I would take out of the deck, but that's just me.
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If you own it, you can also get Mana Crypt as well so you are guaranteed to have 5 mana on your next turn, which means you be able to suspend at least one card with Jhoira if she resolves. Mana Crypt is essentially a free Sol Ring. Getting Bolted isn't as bad with 40 life totals, and it isn't guaranteed to happen.
Basically, Trinket Mage is the blue version of mana ramp, providing more consistency to the deck.
On another note, since you're already contributing a lot, Surging Chaos, what is your opinion on things that manipulate time counters in a Jhoira deck?
I'll probably have time to update my list tomorrow...
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For the most part, yeah. Jhoira can be a bit slow, and Trinket Mage gives the deck a nice boost in acceleration. I'm also trying to get a Mana Crypt to make the deck faster, which Trinket Mage also fetches. You could also play a Seat of the Synod and/or a Great Furnace if for some reason you need a land drop or you're hurting in red mana. Getting Top is also really good as well.
For some of the less-obvious inclusions other than Clockspinning:
Jhoira's Timebug: Not as good as Clockspinning because it's a permanent, but it doesn't draw too much hate for removal in a multiplayer setting because there is usually more threating stuff on the table. Like Clockspinning, I love how you have the option of putting time counters back on your permanents to keep a big spell from not hitting the table yet for some reason (maybe there's a Disk or Oblivion Stone in play) or to put time counters back on Aeon Chronicler and Detritivore to reuse their effects.
Paradox Haze: Good, good card. Gets suspended stuff into play MUCH faster than normal. Extra upkeeps can also screw someone else up as well in random situations should it arise, but obviously this will be very rare.
Savor the Moment: Sounds good in practice, but I haven't tested it fully. It gives you another turn to unsuspend stuff, another draw phase, and another land drop.
Fury Charm: Not usually a dead card since you can just as easily get rid of a problematic artifact.
After that, I play with a few extra turn effects that are powerful on their own with the benefit of getting suspended stuff into play another turn quicker. Time Warp is self-explanatory, and I'm also messing around with Walk the Aeons for another extra turn card that turns into more extra turns with excess Islands in play.
It's definately good to have some time manipulation in the deck, but I don't like to overdo it. If you want, you can substitute a lot of the time manipulation in the deck for more mass LD like Sunder, Boom // Bust, Jokulhaups, and even something like Tectonic Break. Most EDH decks completely fall apart when all their lands go down the drain, leaving them helpless to deal with incoming suspended bombs. In this case, it wouldn't matter a lot if you used time manipulation cards to get the suspended cards into play faster because your opponents are already landless and will probably just watch you unsuspend your cards into play.
If you want to make the deck more casual friendly though and keep yourself from getting hated out of the playgroup, then you can play with more time manipulation over a lot of the mass LD and focus more on cheating the big spells into play quickly. I would still keep an Apocalypse, Obliterate, and a Decree of Annihilation in the deck as your only mass-LD effects though even if I went this latter route. They're good "panic buttons" to have if you feel someone at the table is going to do something really devasating.
-1 Island, -1 Mountain, +1 Seat of the Synod, +1 Great Furnace
Surging Chaos mentioned Trinket Mage could fetch these. How could I forget!
-1 Mind Stone, +1 Gilded Lotus
Better mana accel.
-1 Gifts Ungiven because it was banned.
-1 Fireball, -1 Banefire, -1 Demonfire because I don't think X spells are good for Jhoira.
+1 Timebender because I think he could do some sick stuff with Riptide Lab.
+1 Jokulhaups for more lol kill everything.
+1 Opportunity for more card draw.
+1 Bribery because how could I forget Bribery?
I'm sure I could still tighten it up some more. Maybe I should swap some board sweepers with land sweepers, because I'm not sure how I feel about messing up and sweeping my fatties (or maybe I should lrn2play the deck). I think Apocalypse and Decree might be safest to cut, since I don't think I want to lose my hand (Aeon Chronicler).
I like Walk the Aeons, it seems especially good when you're gonna be wiping your lands anyway. I could probably use that somewhere.
As for Relic and Crypt, my friends aren't going to make any gy based decks so they are pointless. Also, I fail to see the need for a Pithing Needle if everything is singleton (yes you could say use it for their general, but as of right now, I know my friends are making Rofellos and Uril, so that is pointless too). I suppose I could use those for sideboard if necessary.
I think I might be overdoing it right now with Time counter manipulation. I took nothing out and even added 1 more. Opinions on the weakest link(s) in this regard? Choices are Rift Elemental, Timebender, Jhoira's Timebug, Paradox Haze, and Clockspinning.
Might try to cut a couple of things for Deja Vu, Relearn, and Windfall.
Also, most likely I will have to cut Volcanic Island and the fetches due to budget reasons. Are there any other (viable) RU duals that I'm missing? Otherise I guess I will replace them with Islands and Mountains. (Maybe Grixis Panorama [would RBU fetch be allowed in an RB deck?], Terramorphic Expanse, Terrain Generator as pseudo-fetches.)
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A Relic or Crypt sounds good as tutor targets though. Someone will be abusing the graveyard in some manner. I would give Relic the nod because it can constantly attack someone's graveyard if you don't want it to activate, it nukes everyone's graveyard, and it cantrips. It's more or less situational though and it's not worth it if no one is really abusing their graveyards.
If you don't have any time manipulation when suspending stuff with Jhoira, you generally want to go:
- suspend board sweepers first
- then suspend your big threats
If you're in a situation where you can hardcast a sweeper, then just suspend your big guys first before firing off your Obliterate/Apoc/whatever obviously.
Apocalypse, along with Decree and Obliterate, should NEVER be cut from the deck. Yes, losing your hand is not a minor drawback. However, Apocalypse more than makes up for what it does. It's a complete board reset. Everything dies, including enchantments and planeswalkers that Decree, Obliterate, and Jokulhaups leave behind. Exiling everything also prevents any indestructability, persist, or any other graveyard shenanigans from happening. It also costs 5 mana, making it quite easy to hardcast for more of a surprise. Try to suspend as much as you can with Jhoira before casting Apocalypse to mitigate the drawback of discarding your hand.
Decree is good because it's an instant speed and uncounterable Armageddon. I usually cycle Decree instead of suspending it because it's so effective against blue variants, but its normal method is clearly game over if that resolves. Again, if you have one or two powerful spells suspended, just destroying lands is effective enough to disable everyone else from what they're doing and leaving them watching as they get beat down by assorted big creatures.
The weakest of the bunch would be Timebender. Good catch on its synergy with Riptide Lab though. If you want more focus on time manipulation, you can also consider Timecrafting.
Yes, you can play with Grixis Panorama. Since it only produces colorless mana, it's fair game.
Add City of Brass, since the pain from it is not too relevant with 40 points of life.
Reflecting Pool is another good, painless mana fixer. Expensive price-wise, but if you have one laying around somewhere, I would definately add it.
Caldera Lake perhaps? There aren't a ton of good mana fixers for enemy colored spells.
Well, like I said, I know for a fact none of my friends will abuse their yards. Maybe if I start playing with a larger group of people (ie. people at my card store instead of just my small group of friends) it might be worth considering more.
Yeah, I realized after I posted that it doesn't have anywhere in the text, it just mentions the word "Swamp"... which is the same as the fetch lands already in the list. So if the fetches are legal, then the Panoramas should be legal too. Efficiency... is another issue.
City of Brass is definitely something I can consider. Reflecting Pool, but that will have to wait until after it drops in price. Caldera Lake is pretty bad... but it's a possibility I suppose.
I realized I forgot to put in Windfall and things like Relearn and Deja Vu. Trying to think of 2 or 3 things to cut for these (with Windfall being top priority and the others being less of a concern).
...If my goal is to sweep everything and then suspend in huge guys, do I really need Insurrection? (Or is it like a Plan B sort of thing?)
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For you, I guess it depends how many people are playing at a time and what generals they are using since Insurrection ranges from annoying to backbreaking spell. Insurrection can be a good weapon to have in your back pocket at a big table when things turn sour.
These are my current thoughts:
- Replace Jokulhaups and Obliterate with Wildfire and Boom // Bust: since they don't hit creatures (stronger than 4), they don't instantly neuter Insurrection.
- Izzet Signet obviously leaves for Crypt/Vault, and I could take out a weak time manipulator (Timebender most likely) to fit in the other one.
- Memory Jar replaces Wheel of Fortune unless I get one later.
Any ideas for how to fit in these cards would be appreciated: Sunder, Walk the Aeons, Relearn, Deja Vu.
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i like the needle. at worst, it'll shut down a pernicious deed in a hurry, at best, it'll negate their general.
it definitely sucks when you,re playing Ashling the Pilgrim with 99 lands...
what about Clone and Vesuvan Shapeshifter? they're perfect anti-generals when they hit the board. you can also use them to double your fatties.
I had the impression that generals in EDH are immune to the legendary rule. When you play Clone, for example, it will kill the clone but not the general.
0) I need like 20 more dice to keep track of suspended things.
1) Hand resets are amazing.
2) Time manipulation is pro. Rift Elemental and Fury Charm are good, Timebender and Clockspinning not so much, didn't get a chance to use Jhoira's Timebug (only played it once as a chumper) and Paradox Haze.
3) RE: my comment on replacing Jokulhaups with Wildfire. Will have to reconsider. I definitely need to hit the [stupid huge number]/[even bigger number] Uril that's staring at my empty board while my fatties are suspending in (stupid troll shroud!)
4) There was never a time I actually wanted to play Relearn or Deja Vu.
Will post a newer updated deck list after all my cards come in and I sort through the stuff I want to keep.
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Lands:
- fetches, - Volcanic Island, +3 Mountain, + Ancient Tomb, + Wasteland
Changed due to money and time constraints. Moving on...
Creatures:
- Timebender, - Rift Elemental, + Bloodfire Colossus, + Clone, + Dragon Mage, + Dragon Tyrant, + Flameblast Dragon, + Pestermite, + Platinum Angel, + Sphinx Ambassador
Timebender was just bad, don't know why I chose to keep Timebug over Rift Elemental, I'll probably switch those (or at least put Rifty back in), tons of new fatties, Pestermite was an afterthought but I did manage to get off Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite in a game (not in the tourney) - and now I want to put in Curiosity for Niv-Mizzet.
Artifacts:
- Izzet Signet, - Mind's Eye, + Mana Crypt, + Mana Vault
Crypt and Vault are pretty obvious adds, Signet doesn't help much and I really hated Mind's Eye. (Actually, in the tourney I took out Vault for a Gamble for some reason... not the exact logic going on at the time but that's what it technically ended up being)
Enchantments:
- Paradox Haze, - Future Sight
Didn't like either of these...
Instants:
- Brainstorm, - Clockspinning, - Desertion, + Evacuation
Clockspinning was just bad, ended up not liking Brainstorm or Ponder for this deck, and Desertion just didn't help ever. Evacuation is pretty good, want to fit Sunder in there somewhere too.
Sorceries:
- Ponder, - Concentrate, - Tidings, - Jokulhaups, - Blatant Thievery, + Boom // Bust, + Walk the Aeons, + Windfall
Again, didn't like Ponder. Concentrate and Tidings were hard to cut, but I needed space. Jokulhaups was out only because the tourney banned it. Never used Blatant Thievery. Boom // Bust, Walk the Aeons, and Windfall are for extra copies of those effects.
Quick tournament report:
Game 1: Sliver Overlord
Stuck on 2 lands for most of the game. Was getting beaten down by a Muscle Sliver, the Sliver that makes them unblockable by nonslivers, and Vampiric Sliver. Eventually got some mana sources and lands, played Jhoira, and suspended Aeon Chronicler and Arcanis (which is just sick by the way). Luckily, he got stuck on 4 lands while I kept getting stuff and hardcast a Decree of Annihilation at 1 life the turn before Chronicler and Arcanis come in (yeah, really). He's still at 40 life at this point in time, and I just beat him to a pulp with Chronicler being pumped by Arcanis - he can't pull a land for the rest of the game.
1 - 0
Game 2: Oona, Queen of the Fae
This match went a lot better... in the beginning. I get him down to 14 before he pulls out Grim Monolith + Power Artifact and mills me for 2 million.
1 - 1
Game 3: Uril, the Miststalker
I Hinder his Uril and he immediately scoops. Boring. Note: here the judge says that we're using the house rule where you can choose to exile your general if they get put anywhere other than the battlefield; I call BS because we were supposed to be using official rules, but my opponent doesn't change his mind about scooping.
2 - 1
T8 was two pods of 4 player games, with the top 2 in each game playing another 4 player game for T4.
Game 4: Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund; Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary; Dralnu, Lich Lord
I got Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in opening hand, but no color producing lands and I keep it because I don't like winning. Luckily, everyone leaves me alone because I'm not doing anything, but when I finally get an Island and a Mountain, I play Jhoira and immediately suspend Apocalypse and Time Stretch. Obviously a bad move, but I just wanted to do it for the lulz, as they say. I get immediately hated off the table.
T4 was Rofellos, Dralnu, Horde of Notions, and another Jhoira (there were a total of 3 at the tourney!).
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