i've been saying for quite a while that partner tax was more of a problem than individual partner pieces ever were.. but for eminence i have no idea how they'd nerf it to be 20 life playable... as time goes by, the number of busted commanders at 20 life seems to be catching up to the ones that were a menace at 30.
25 life is looking better and better now coz combo will be able to survive long enough to end eminence commanders without immediately dying, control will have a reasonable cushion to survive aggro and shut down combo, and aggro will still have enough reach..
I know that you're trying to find a solution to the problem, but throwing around the '25 life' mantra is getting a bit annoying. My question is: did you test your 25 life format? Di you practice with all the tier decks, including currently banned generals, to see if the format would change? Are you sure that your change would bring more combo decks to the table or are you just talking out of some wishful thinking?
Edgar is not a problem because we play at 20 life. He would be a problem even in a 30 life format, because he gives the player an emblem that can't be interacted with and that generates tons of advantage. That is not an issue of life points, the card is basically perverting the idea of playing commander by giving you a free effect without ever needing to move your commander from the command zone. That's why it should be banned.
Actually I have done preliminary testing right after the marath ban I admit that was long ago, and after the 20 life announcement was made I kinda dropped the project altogether. The decks i recall used were kaalia, bellstriker, titania, geist, jenara, GAAIV, anafenza, animar, teferi/babyjace and i believe keranos, though i think no MonoB Sidisi coz we dint bother after the ooze ban (in retrospect we should have included it).. But based on that preliminary testing, aggro was viable, combo could not afford to just sit back, absorb damage and win (but does not get beaten up by hyperaggro decks unlike in 20), while control was within reach of aggro. However in light of partners and eminence, i'm not sure exactly how accurate my initial assessment will still be. But answering another one of your questions, yes based on my initial testing, the extra 5 life allowed combo to function much better than it does in 20 right now, and that to me is key in keeping many aggro decks in check and by extension, keeping them legal and playable. Also, though I do agree that Edgar and eminence is a problem and perverts the idea of commander to an extent, I don't think he will be as big a problem if life totals were slightly increased. If combo decks can consistently survive zurgo and to a certain extent maintain that rock-paper-scissors of aggro beats control beats combo beats aggro, then edgar and by extension bruse won't have to be banned.
I get what you're saying that the idea that 25 life solves all of 20 and 30 life formats is wishful thinking and based on nothing but a pipe dream.. But the fact is we have seen firsthand the problems that both 20 and 30 life has brought in terms of restricting which decks can compete at a high level (hence the bans). Though it's wrong to put 25 life on a pedestal without wide-scale testing, it's just as wrong to simply dismiss it as just a product of wishful thinking.
interesting! is this consistent enough to set up though?
I will hype u a litle: discard Wanderwine Prophets, reanimate it, pay {1} to copy it, exile the non token to the token, attack, sac the token, pay {1} to make another token, pass make a new token and just enjoy your turns
i'd love to see this in action. the day combo decks become consistently viable in tournament play at 20 life is the day i shut up about 25
Actually I have done preliminary testing right after the marath ban I admit that was long ago, and after the 20 life announcement was made I kinda dropped the project altogether. But based on that preliminary testing, aggro was viable, combo could not afford to just sit back, absorb damage and win (but does not get beaten up by hyperaggro decks like in 20), while control was within reach of aggro. However in light of partners and eminence, i'm not sure exactly how accurate my initial assessment will still be. But answering another one of your questions, yes based on my initial testing, the extra 5 life allowed combo to function much better than it does in 20 right now, and that to me is key in keeping many aggro decks in check and by extension, keeping them legal and playable. Also, though I do agree that Edgar and eminence is a problem and perverts the idea of commander to an extent, I don't think he will be as big a problem if life totals were slightly increased. If combo decks can consistently survive zurgo and to a certain extent maintain that rock-paper-scissors of aggro beats control beats combo beats aggro, then edgar and by extension bruse won't have to be banned.
I get what you're saying that the idea that 25 life solves all of 20 and 30 life formats is wishful thinking and based on nothing but a pipe dream.. But the fact is we have seen firsthand the problems that both 20 and 30 life has brought in terms of restricting which decks can compete at a high level (hence the bans). Though it's wrong to put 25 life on a pedestal without wide-scale testing, it's just as wrong to simply dismiss it as just a product of wishful thinking.
What I don't get is what people think is so wrong with the format that we must enforce yet another rules change. A big one, nonetheless. Combo decks, by nature, will be less consistent than aggro and control decks in a singleton format. Any constructed combo deck depends on specific pieces to work and plays multiple copies of such pieces. Unless you found a one-card combo (such as prossh food chain, or sidisi ooze) you're in a world of hurt to play combo in commander. The archetype is clearly less consistent in our format. It appeared less so in 30 life because you have more time to durdle around and find your combo, but it still wasn't amazing. Most 'combo' decks in commander were actually normal decks that had combos in them (sidisi being a great exception). Trying to make combo a completely viable and well-represented archetype is almost the same as trying to make prison-style decks a completely viable well-represented archetype.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
I was actually editing this exact same thing into my reply to you, well minus the specific cards since i'm not totally familiar with all the pieces. But yes one of the main reasons I have for my 25 life argument is actually to buff combo decks. I never really expected representation to completely even out three ways no matter what changes are made due to the variable nature of combo, but helping that archetype could balance out the aggro a bit.
Sounds about right. Too fast for slow u/x decks to keep up with, but not fast enough for true aggro. Arahbo is a hybrid aggro; i.e. a true midrange deck, that can "combo" with cards a la Berserk.
Sounds about right. Too fast for slow u/x decks to keep up with, but not fast enough for true aggro. Arahbo is a hybrid aggro; i.e. a true midrange deck, that can "combo" with cards a la Berserk.
ok just as i initially thought, the eminence commander in question for a ban would really only be edgar..
Sounds about right. Too fast for slow u/x decks to keep up with, but not fast enough for true aggro. Arahbo is a hybrid aggro; i.e. a true midrange deck, that can "combo" with cards a la Berserk.
The way we've been testing Arahbo is like a GW Delver. Stick a creature, bash for a lot while bouncing/removing/nullifying your opponent's creatures. Thing is, Edgar goes wide too fast and Titania can trade their tokens with buffed cats without losing any cards in the process.
In a legacy setting, Tarmogoyf for as big as it is never goes over Young Pyromancer's tokens. This is sorta the same scenario...
With creatures getting more and more aggressive, and Commanders having extra value all the time, maybe it's time to let Humility (and/or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale) out of the penalty box for a bit?
Consider that the card will not stop Eminence triggers or the Partner mechanic (though it will obviate the partners on the battlefield, to be certain), and that discard spells are aggressively costed to stop it from being played. As well, it does cost four mana, which means the game could be toward the end when you're able to play it, or you could be at a fairly low life total as well.
Additionally, it leaves your opponents with a field of 1/1 creatures to chip away. Yes, that also means your opponent's creatures in hand become very overcosted 1/1s that will likely not be enough (in the long run) if a sweeper follows up the Humility.
An additional benefit would be to just edge the game toward a bit more "spell magic", to combat it, and perhaps give Control a little more help to slow down aggressive strategies. Maybe we see the re-entrance of a "good stuff" Planeswalker deck of some sort, or a few grindier decks. Maybe this opens up a combo deck using enchantments, artifacts, planeswalkers that got pushed out.
As it is, having various creatures banned as Commanders and "exits" such as Polymorph as well is tilting the field a bit much toward first aggro, then "aggro-resilience" such as Markov, who gives you a ton of gas. Even Arahbo isn't too bad, but Arahbo, Zurgo, Markov, etc. all clogging things up is getting a bit much. Maybe a shift where we have a few good aggro decks, some control (avec ou sans Humility) and maybe a combo enabler or two might be good? I am just spitballing here, but it's getting hot in the kitchens of Duel Commander players, maybe give us some gauze to allay the burns?
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Ok, unpopular opinion: Edgar is actually good for the format, or would be if there wasn't another low-interaction aggro deck at Tier 1.
Don't test him against the decks we used to play to beat Breya and Geist. Test it against the decks people have been whining aren't relevant anymore like Anafenza, Animar, Daretti, Doran, Griselbrand/Kalitas and Queen Marchesa. He doesn't look so unbeatable anymore.
Problem is those decks lose to Zurgo.
That's an interesting claim. It beats out the tier 1 decks clearing a path for tier 3 decks. If it was to cause a meta shoft, would the deck be able to compensate or would something like Anafenza be a bad MU no matter what?
I really doubt Edgar can beat an Anafenza, Tymna-Kondo or Doran built for the post-Eminence metagame. Vampires don't have any trick up their sleeve, it's either the 41 creatures balls to the wall list that can't beat an X/4 with Jitte, or the 30-35 creatures list that has added reach vs Junk but crumbles vs proactive control. Vampires are not quality creatures and the longer the game goes the worst they topdeck.
I've been beating my own Edgar list from page 5 3-10, and a 41 creatures list from a friend 1-10 with my retired 30lp Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief list and I haven't even updated it with Engineered Plague, Bontu's Last Reckoning, etc. Problem is that deck doesn't beat Zurgo or Titania. (It does beat Baral, Gitrog and Karlov tho).
I really doubt Edgar can beat an Anafenza, Tymna-Kondo or Doran built for the post-Eminence metagame. Vampires don't have any trick up their sleeve, it's either the 41 creatures balls to the wall list that can't beat an X/4 with Jitte, or the 30-35 creatures list that has added reach vs Junk but crumbles vs proactive control. Vampires are not quality creatures and the longer the game goes the worst they topdeck.
I've been beating my own Edgar list from page 5 3-10, and a 41 creatures list from a friend 1-10 with my retired 30lp Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief list and I haven't even updated it with Engineered Plague, Bontu's Last Reckoning, etc. Problem is that deck doesn't beat Zurgo or Titania. (It does beat Baral, Gitrog and Karlov tho).
abzan still exists in my local meta, and doran/anafenza (more of doran coz he turns ball lightnings into 1/1's) stands up to zurgo pretty well thanks to bigger midrange threats, and access to siege rhino, kitchen finks and thragtusk..
though why does edgar lose to abzan exactly? would adding a few more anthems help?
I really doubt Edgar can beat an Anafenza, Tymna-Kondo or Doran built for the post-Eminence metagame. Vampires don't have any trick up their sleeve, it's either the 41 creatures balls to the wall list that can't beat an X/4 with Jitte, or the 30-35 creatures list that has added reach vs Junk but crumbles vs proactive control. Vampires are not quality creatures and the longer the game goes the worst they topdeck.
I've been beating my own Edgar list from page 5 3-10, and a 41 creatures list from a friend 1-10 with my retired 30lp Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief list and I haven't even updated it with Engineered Plague, Bontu's Last Reckoning, etc. Problem is that deck doesn't beat Zurgo or Titania. (It does beat Baral, Gitrog and Karlov tho).
abzan still exists in my local meta, and doran/anafenza (more of doran coz he turns ball lightnings into 1/1's) stands up to zurgo pretty well thanks to bigger midrange threats, and access to siege rhino, kitchen finks and thragtusk..
though why does edgar lose to abzan exactly? would adding a few more anthems help?
Huge competitively-costed asses that can fight back, Cataclysm, Balance, Jitte, Tangle Wire, Winter Orb...
The Abzan decks I've been testing with have pretty much everything you don't want to see as a swarm aggro, none of the best vampires being larger than X/3 doesn't help them survive combat with Anafenza/Doran/Rhino/Courser/etc. either. I'm not sure more anthems would help since Abrupt Decay hits all the good ones.
I really doubt Edgar can beat an Anafenza, Tymna-Kondo or Doran built for the post-Eminence metagame. Vampires don't have any trick up their sleeve, it's either the 41 creatures balls to the wall list that can't beat an X/4 with Jitte, or the 30-35 creatures list that has added reach vs Junk but crumbles vs proactive control. Vampires are not quality creatures and the longer the game goes the worst they topdeck.
I've been beating my own Edgar list from page 5 3-10, and a 41 creatures list from a friend 1-10 with my retired 30lp Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief list and I haven't even updated it with Engineered Plague, Bontu's Last Reckoning, etc. Problem is that deck doesn't beat Zurgo or Titania. (It does beat Baral, Gitrog and Karlov tho).
abzan still exists in my local meta, and doran/anafenza (more of doran coz he turns ball lightnings into 1/1's) stands up to zurgo pretty well thanks to bigger midrange threats, and access to siege rhino, kitchen finks and thragtusk..
though why does edgar lose to abzan exactly? would adding a few more anthems help?
Huge competitively-costed asses that can fight back, Cataclysm, Balance, Jitte, Tangle Wire, Winter Orb...
The Abzan decks I've been testing with have pretty much everything you don't want to see as a swarm aggro, none of the best vampires being larger than X/3 doesn't help them survive combat with Anafenza/Doran/Rhino/Courser/etc. either. I'm not sure more anthems would help since Abrupt Decay hits all the good ones.
ack. you have a point there. less creatures more utility would fix this matchup i'm sure. does reducing the vamps affect the control matchup that badly? i really feel like the strongest control deck right now is thrasios/kraum, have you tested against it?
Yes the 32-34 creatures lists do better vs Abzan and Titania while the 40+ creatures lists do better vs Marchesa, MBC and partner control. I haven't tested vs Thrasios/Kraum but I tested vs Tymna/Kraum and I suspect the same gameplan applies. If they survive your opening hand out of bolt range they're 80% likely to win.
Even though I just got wrecked by Edgar tonight at my LGS's Duel night, I would second the opinion that the deck may be good for the format. It preys on the grindier midrange decks, and gets beaten by the hard control decks. It makes things a cyclical meta which usually helps make things less stale. Granted there will be some growing pains, as a Leovold player I am terrified, but it may not be as awful as it seems at first. Can't be good against every deck.
I tested my list today again, first at our DC Night and later vs a friend's decks.
There were 14 people, the first time we've had more than 8 people since the last banlist announcement.
Vs Zurgo 2-0
Vs Radha 2-0
Vs Arhabo 2-0
Vs Kalitas 1-2
Got me second place.
Later I played some first to five games vs a friend's Doran going 2-5, and tested deeper vs Tymna-Kraum getting 2-5 when Edgar starts and 3-5 when Partners start.
I agree, Edgar destroys the non-interactive "race me or die" decks while being soft but not completely defenseless vs control decks. With him in the format all we need is a bit more consistency for combos and we may be seeing a more balanced archetype division by this time next year instead of 60% aggro-39% control-1% combo like we have now.
2 Edgars played yesterday, one went 4-0 and the other 3-1 with a much more crude list. The amount of people trying to buy vampires to get Edgar going down here is absurd.
Another tool for Edgar. The more vampires are printed, the more problematic the deck becomes. If Ixalan prints any one-drop vampire (which I think is very likely), the deck will also play it. People still think the general shouldn't be banned?
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I was just gonna post him. Looks like the perfect curve topper
I think Cainsson made a good argument that he might create a helpful meta shift. He should stay for now and we can ban him later depending on what the meta looks like down the road.
Actually I have done preliminary testing right after the marath ban I admit that was long ago, and after the 20 life announcement was made I kinda dropped the project altogether. The decks i recall used were kaalia, bellstriker, titania, geist, jenara, GAAIV, anafenza, animar, teferi/babyjace and i believe keranos, though i think no MonoB Sidisi coz we dint bother after the ooze ban (in retrospect we should have included it).. But based on that preliminary testing, aggro was viable, combo could not afford to just sit back, absorb damage and win (but does not get beaten up by hyperaggro decks unlike in 20), while control was within reach of aggro. However in light of partners and eminence, i'm not sure exactly how accurate my initial assessment will still be. But answering another one of your questions, yes based on my initial testing, the extra 5 life allowed combo to function much better than it does in 20 right now, and that to me is key in keeping many aggro decks in check and by extension, keeping them legal and playable. Also, though I do agree that Edgar and eminence is a problem and perverts the idea of commander to an extent, I don't think he will be as big a problem if life totals were slightly increased. If combo decks can consistently survive zurgo and to a certain extent maintain that rock-paper-scissors of aggro beats control beats combo beats aggro, then edgar and by extension bruse won't have to be banned.
I get what you're saying that the idea that 25 life solves all of 20 and 30 life formats is wishful thinking and based on nothing but a pipe dream.. But the fact is we have seen firsthand the problems that both 20 and 30 life has brought in terms of restricting which decks can compete at a high level (hence the bans). Though it's wrong to put 25 life on a pedestal without wide-scale testing, it's just as wrong to simply dismiss it as just a product of wishful thinking.
i'd love to see this in action. the day combo decks become consistently viable in tournament play at 20 life is the day i shut up about 25
Do you wanna help combo out? Unbannings are a much better route than life total changes. Unban food chain, necrotic ooze and Jace, vryn's prodigy. There is absolutely NO reason why these cards should be banned at 20 life. I would also strongly consider unbanning protean hulk, gaea's cradle, treasure cruise, dig through time, oath of druids and hermit druid. Also gifts ungiven should be unbanned immediately, there is no reason why this card should be banned. I would also consider, though with much more caution, unbanning loyal retainers, entomb and tolarian academy.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
I was actually editing this exact same thing into my reply to you, well minus the specific cards since i'm not totally familiar with all the pieces. But yes one of the main reasons I have for my 25 life argument is actually to buff combo decks. I never really expected representation to completely even out three ways no matter what changes are made due to the variable nature of combo, but helping that archetype could balance out the aggro a bit.
has anyone tested arahbo extensively yet?
EDIT: Against Edgar and Titania the trump card is Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist and Umezawa's Jitte. Thing is, Mirri is easy to remove.
Sounds about right. Too fast for slow u/x decks to keep up with, but not fast enough for true aggro. Arahbo is a hybrid aggro; i.e. a true midrange deck, that can "combo" with cards a la Berserk.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
ok just as i initially thought, the eminence commander in question for a ban would really only be edgar..
The way we've been testing Arahbo is like a GW Delver. Stick a creature, bash for a lot while bouncing/removing/nullifying your opponent's creatures. Thing is, Edgar goes wide too fast and Titania can trade their tokens with buffed cats without losing any cards in the process.
In a legacy setting, Tarmogoyf for as big as it is never goes over Young Pyromancer's tokens. This is sorta the same scenario...
With creatures getting more and more aggressive, and Commanders having extra value all the time, maybe it's time to let Humility (and/or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale) out of the penalty box for a bit?
Consider that the card will not stop Eminence triggers or the Partner mechanic (though it will obviate the partners on the battlefield, to be certain), and that discard spells are aggressively costed to stop it from being played. As well, it does cost four mana, which means the game could be toward the end when you're able to play it, or you could be at a fairly low life total as well.
Additionally, it leaves your opponents with a field of 1/1 creatures to chip away. Yes, that also means your opponent's creatures in hand become very overcosted 1/1s that will likely not be enough (in the long run) if a sweeper follows up the Humility.
An additional benefit would be to just edge the game toward a bit more "spell magic", to combat it, and perhaps give Control a little more help to slow down aggressive strategies. Maybe we see the re-entrance of a "good stuff" Planeswalker deck of some sort, or a few grindier decks. Maybe this opens up a combo deck using enchantments, artifacts, planeswalkers that got pushed out.
As it is, having various creatures banned as Commanders and "exits" such as Polymorph as well is tilting the field a bit much toward first aggro, then "aggro-resilience" such as Markov, who gives you a ton of gas. Even Arahbo isn't too bad, but Arahbo, Zurgo, Markov, etc. all clogging things up is getting a bit much. Maybe a shift where we have a few good aggro decks, some control (avec ou sans Humility) and maybe a combo enabler or two might be good? I am just spitballing here, but it's getting hot in the kitchens of Duel Commander players, maybe give us some gauze to allay the burns?
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Don't test him against the decks we used to play to beat Breya and Geist. Test it against the decks people have been whining aren't relevant anymore like Anafenza, Animar, Daretti, Doran, Griselbrand/Kalitas and Queen Marchesa. He doesn't look so unbeatable anymore.
Problem is those decks lose to Zurgo.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I've been beating my own Edgar list from page 5 3-10, and a 41 creatures list from a friend 1-10 with my retired 30lp Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief list and I haven't even updated it with Engineered Plague, Bontu's Last Reckoning, etc. Problem is that deck doesn't beat Zurgo or Titania. (It does beat Baral, Gitrog and Karlov tho).
abzan still exists in my local meta, and doran/anafenza (more of doran coz he turns ball lightnings into 1/1's) stands up to zurgo pretty well thanks to bigger midrange threats, and access to siege rhino, kitchen finks and thragtusk..
though why does edgar lose to abzan exactly? would adding a few more anthems help?
The Abzan decks I've been testing with have pretty much everything you don't want to see as a swarm aggro, none of the best vampires being larger than X/3 doesn't help them survive combat with Anafenza/Doran/Rhino/Courser/etc. either. I'm not sure more anthems would help since Abrupt Decay hits all the good ones.
ack. you have a point there. less creatures more utility would fix this matchup i'm sure. does reducing the vamps affect the control matchup that badly? i really feel like the strongest control deck right now is thrasios/kraum, have you tested against it?
There were 14 people, the first time we've had more than 8 people since the last banlist announcement.
Vs Zurgo 2-0
Vs Radha 2-0
Vs Arhabo 2-0
Vs Kalitas 1-2
Got me second place.
Later I played some first to five games vs a friend's Doran going 2-5, and tested deeper vs Tymna-Kraum getting 2-5 when Edgar starts and 3-5 when Partners start.
I agree, Edgar destroys the non-interactive "race me or die" decks while being soft but not completely defenseless vs control decks. With him in the format all we need is a bit more consistency for combos and we may be seeing a more balanced archetype division by this time next year instead of 60% aggro-39% control-1% combo like we have now.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Nothing else so far.
why not play both?
Another tool for Edgar. The more vampires are printed, the more problematic the deck becomes. If Ixalan prints any one-drop vampire (which I think is very likely), the deck will also play it. People still think the general shouldn't be banned?
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
I think Cainsson made a good argument that he might create a helpful meta shift. He should stay for now and we can ban him later depending on what the meta looks like down the road.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)