Testing Prism Ring. Sun Droplet, the previous slot, is probably stronger, but the 2 mana cost on Droplet is pretty awkward. Wash Out is probably fine, although it's useless vs Zurgo. Talrand I would love to play now, but cannot because of my tight Reweave package, which only wants to get Snapcaster/Palinchron as creatures.
EDIT: I've updated the OP with my current 20 life decklist. I haven't been running Tezzeret or Candelabra in ages, so the previous list was very outdated. Cut Wasteland and Mikokoro for 2 basics, added Repeal and Negate.
Deep Analysis -> Timetwister - Control is less relevant now, and the flashback mode is usually uncastable against aggro decks because of the huge lifeloss. Timetwister is now better because after the Dig ban because it adds redundancy.
Careful Consideration-> Prism Ring - Expensive card draw is not needed anymore unless it's Fact or Fiction so I replaced it with aggro stall.
Hi, first of all thank you spastika for your 20hp update!
I haven't been able to test the deck with 20hp yet, but I'm still considering taking it to Eternal Weekend next week (the European DC cup will take place here).
My main reason to consider the deck is that since the format is still unknown, I want to do something proactive and broken. Another great news is that Gifts Ungiven is unbanned for this event, and I think the card can be broken in this deck.
I'm thinking of Gifts piles that can be good, I think the best one is stuff like 4 Time Walks?
I also don't have a lot of experience against aggro MU (mostly played against durdly control on 30hp). Can we race those decks? How are these MU? Should I consider not playing the deck if I'm expecting a very aggro meta?
Also last question: I saw a report on internet by googling "DC Jace vryin's prodigy" (EDIT: link: http://www.mtgvan.ca/duel-commander-taking-jace-vryns-prodigy-grey-haven/ ). The guy was running a more all-in combo list, with stuff like Dizzy Spell to tutor for high tide, Enter the infinite + Lab maniac as additional wincon and more untap effects (reality spasm etc). These cards feel extremely clunky but maybe this can work if the disruption is lower? Anybody tested a more combo oriented list?
Yes I'm also running Temporal mastery, Temporal Trespass, Time Warp and walk the aeons as my 4 time walk effects (I don't own capture). After dig & Cruise ban, delving for 8 is surprisingly easy, the card is amazing (and it's rarely worse than Walk the aeons, as most of the time you will be able to play it for a lot less than 6 mana by turn 6). Biggest drawback is exiling itself
Are you guys still working on Jace with the life change?
@Jibux: I'll try Trespass again, although my feeling is that it's only better than Walk the Aeons in grindy control matchups where you want to resolve a 3mana Tresspass + expensive Jace in lategame. It's probably worse in all other matchups than Walk th Aeons because of the self-exile. I could be wrong.
@KingBrago: The aggro matchup really depends on three things: who wins the die roll, whether or not you can flip Jace on turn 2 or 3, and whether or not you can get Ugin out by turn 6. Ugin is so critical in the aggro matchup because of the Reweave/Turnabout plan, and even without those cards it is fairly easy to ramp into Ugin if you double or triple Time Warp starting from turn 5. I wouldn't dilute the Ugin/Reweave combo with LabMan + Enter the Infinite. Dizzy Spell is also bad because it is tempo loss, and we can't tap out for 3 mana just to tutor High Tide. I don't think the High Tide Spiral plan is that good against fast aggro, because aggro will try and empty their hand against monoblue and build up their board state quickly. An early Spiral will often help the aggro player by refilling their hand. Against aggro we mostly want to resolve Temporal Fissure, Ugin, or the Palinchron combo.
Zurgo (our hardest aggro matchup) is actually a fairly even matchup if you think of Jace TU as an Oloro and race to flip him. The matchup also depends on the number of burn spells the Zurgo player runs, but any less than 12 2cmc burn spells gives us a decent chance of untapping with Jace and (hopefully) flipping him.
Here are my thoughts on potential Gifts piles:
-4x timewalks (time warp, capture, temporal manip, walk the aeons) -> get this pile if you have ugin in hand
-3x timewalks + reweave (time warp, capture, manip, reweave) -> get this if you have nothing in hand. probably the better pile most of the time.
-ugin/palinchron reweave (snapcaster, high tide, reweave, treachery/order of succession) -> this is an extension of my usual Intuition pile. get this if you're aiming to reweave a creature into palinchron. order & treachery are in case the opponent doesn't give us snapcaster, so we simply steal one of their creatures and reweave it.
-high tide spiral (frantic search, turnabout, high tide, time spiral) -> get this if ugin is irrelevant and you have nothing in hand.
-high tide fissure (temporal fissure, frantic search/turnabout, high tide, snapcaster) -> get this if ugin is irrelevant, you have less than 6 islands, and you need to reset the board. if you already have snapcaster in play or in hand, get snap instead of snapcaster, and potentially reweave instead of frantic or turnabout.
The way I've been playing Intuition recently is to give myself the option of either Reweave into Palinchron or into Ugin, and Gifts makes both goals easier because we get an extra combo piece in hand to play with.
My most common intuition pile tends to be High Tide, Reweave and Snapcaster. If they give us Reweave, we -3 High Tide and cast Reweave into Jace VP to find Ugin. If they give us Snapcaster, we -3 High Tide, then Snapcaster the Reweave to target Snapcaster and find Palinchron. This Intuition pile takes Snapcaster out of the deck so if we Reweave Snapcaster or another creature we will be guaranteed to find Palinchron.
My idea is to make the deck more all in combo, with as much cards as possible that help us combo off when we started. The idea is to get high tide ASAP, then set up for a big turn on the last turn possible (right before our opponent kills us) and to be able to go for the kill on this turn.
This is different from the classic more controlling list with Timewalks, since you don't really want to hit timewalks when you're going for a kill. Then, Timewalks are very synergistic with Jace, and it's possible that this list is more suited for Teferi PW.
I agree with the idea that the deck needs to be more proactive as counterspells are not particularly good against decks like Doran and Jenara who are really popular at the moment.
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Still working on Jace, Vryn's Prodigy: as more and more people are tuning their deck to beat aggro, counterspells are at an all time low, and midrange decks are emerging. This is a great meta to be playing combo.
I've cut down the number of counters to the minimum, as they are not great against most creature decks, and it allows us to combo more reliably (more chances to hit from a time spiral or a mind's desire).
I've cut the Reweave Package to be able to fit more planeswalkers and creatures. I want to play Emrakul, the Promised End who seems awesome but still haven't received the card from the postal office.
With the new unbans, I'm considering playing a Grindstone+Painter's Servant alternate wincondition. I synergizes well with Tezzeret, Grindstone can be tutured with Dizzy Spell (which is a little slow but it's ok), and we can also add an artefact tutoring package (Fabricate?) and maybe other artefacts like memory Jar. I don't know if this is the right call though, as all of this is kind of mana intensive, and it might be better in a deck like Teferi PW playing lots of mana rocks (to maximize the power of draw 7 and play Transmute Artefact etc).
Anyone still playing the deck?
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Painter's Servant works great with playing Force of Will, Misdirection and maybe even Commandeer. I think the combo is a fine addition to the deck (as it is in many, many decks, making this unban very dumb IMO).
I always think any combo that has no synergy with your commander, and you play it just because it is good... Is so strange and unflavorful for a format. But anyway, it looks like another alternative for the deck, and I think it will work fine to have it as another wincon.
The combo has synergy with blue as a whole and with the whole draw7 theme. You can even twist the list a little to add things like Trinket Mage, that can fetch Grindstone but also Candelabra. Wouldn't you play Key/Vault if it was allowed? Both combos make Tezzeret a 1 turn threat, for example.
Yeah xD, I'm not arguing to not play it, I was arguing more about why it is valid now in the format... If the deck is combo, and has at least some synergy, yeah I think it should be played.
This is a completely different deck. Maybe its a better version, I havent tested. Maxence A. Also made top 8 at this event, and I hope his list will be published. We play in the same card shop and we discussed a lot about the deck, and he thinks we should get rid of all counterspells to go more into the bounce spells and combo plan, and I agree with him. His list has a few cards I disagree on. Here is my current list. My plan is all-in combo
Game plan is cantrip to find high tide. Then go for a combo (possibly when your opponent threatens to kill you so you have more time to set up. This deck is not punishing if you decide to go too early. It is almost impossible to fizzle: at worst, you'll end up with a few extra turns or an Emrakul in play, and set up for another combo turn thanks to jace)
Bounce spells are a way to win the race against aggro decks.
When comboing, all your cards draw other cards or make mana. You don't need to wait until you have 6 island to go off, generally you can make some mana, draw some cards and continue to set up either some extra turns to go off later, or a big storm spell. Temporal fissure is usually game, and a gib mind's desire generally means you win this turn. It is not unusual to win on turn 4 or create a situation from which they can't come back.
Why no counters?
- Bad against aggro (bounce are better)
- Not needed against control (Gigadrowse, spamming big draw spells are enough, especially since they play less counterpsells now). Maybe dispel/Swannsong and stuff canbe good in very controlling metas. THe emrakul trigger also wrecks control decks
- Spell based combo doesnt exist apart from the mirror. If you ind yourself battling reanimator or omnishow/storm, just race them
- Counters are bad when comboing off. You want draw spells and spells that make mana.
Last side note, I just started playing mind over matter and it is awesome. I think I need to play bigger draw spells (more card quantity over quality) to make it better, but each time I've cast it, I was able to draw the whole deck (was it overkill? I woundnt have been able to kill the same turn without it but maybe I could just have set up a few extra turns ? I don't think the card is overkill most of the time). It turns your unwanted cards (islands...) into mana. And your mana turns into more cards.
This deck races most of the format and has a fundamental turn around 4 to 6 (depending on how fast you can find High tide and if Jace survives). It's a lot of fun also (not for the opponent!)
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What happens if they're smart and counter High Tide? This deck has basically 3 threats. High Tide, Ugin and Teferi (kinda). I mean, knowing the list, why on earth would I counter any draw spell?
You forgot Emrakul, who is the best threat against control. Take their turn, shred their hand and combo off. (if they have stifle, great, it doesn't counter high tide If they have misdi, stifle, force counterspell and the counterflux for Gigadrowse, I guess they will win! ). Basically, if you don't counter my draw spells and wait for the big stuff, I will find Emrakul or Gigadrowse and win.
Long version:
There's lots of things to take into consideration if you're playing against control( or as control against this deck).
First, if the control deck has no clock, the tide deck will win with Gigadrowse or Emrakul trigger. I generally try to bait counters with big draw spells as I said, and set up my high tide. As with most storm decks, the plan is to go for it on the last turn before they kill you. If the control can't establish pressure, I will find Gigasrowse and tap them out before the kill. if they tap out for a threat, I can kill them. They can't really kill me with card advantage since I have so much of it and will be able to keep up. I can also kill from low resources thanks to draw 7s. (NB. All of this is theory, it really depends on each player's hands and draws of course)
I have yet to find a control player who will not at least try to counter stuff like Fact or Fiction and big draw spells. I also don't think its a good strategy to let me draw as I want before countering "real threats".
The trigger of Emrakul is also uncounterable (and most dedicated control decks don't play stifle. If they have it, good for them). Also note that remand is here specifically to remand my own spells (or cantrip/timewalk if they play sth expensive)
Additional defensive counterspells are good for the control MU (I'm talking Dispel/Swann Song/Pierce/Fluster) to force your spells but not needed, and they are not so good in MU where you need to race.
Also things to note:
- COntrol deck play less counters in 20 life (still they play a good number of them)
- Most of the counters played are either clunky (3+ mana) or soft counters which can be played around
- More importantly: what decks are we talking about? From my experience, few dedicated control decks exist right now. I think the more popular is Vial/Kraum. It is a very hard MU because their clock is so fast. Our best bet is to kill them when they tap out for Vial. If they prefer to keep up interaction, that gives us more time to set up.
More tempo-y blue decks like Geist are easier since they play less countermagic and mostly soft counters. Tap out control or removal heavy decks like Narset are also good. Draw-go like Nin or clique would be bad I think but I have yet to see them in this meta
This version would probably lose to things like mono-U, mono-counterspell Vendilion Clique, but this deck is not really played right not. If the meta becomes less aggro and more control (or combo), I think I will think about adding (in this order):
- Dispel, flusterstorm, spell pierce, swann song, counterspell
Maybe defense grid is an option?
To sum up the version I'm playing now is one designed to race. It is very different from previous versions which were there to control and grind they win via combo. My list is better against decks with no counterspells and worse against counters, but it's a meta-choice, as the speed I gain is great to beat a lot of top decks (Geist -who has very few counters generally, aggro, titania, Gx combo, midrange...)
EDIT: I edited to add some new ideas, hope its still coherent!
Also, a last remark: storm spells are great to beat countermagic. If you manage to resolve a high tide (maybe they had just soft counters or wait until they can counter the payoff -bad strategy) or just have lots of mana a few cantrips into Temporal fissure is great. Mind's desire generally requires at least 7-10 storm to be sure to hit actual gas and not just islands
There are a few dedicated control decks out there like Augustin and Keranos, but I get your point.
Emrakul is no a credible threat because it will cost 10 mana most of the times. So playing it without Tide seems hard - even if you manage to reduce its cost to 8. You'll be dead before that, probably.
I guess stuff like Pact of Negation or Flusterstorm are fine. Even Vendilion Clique seems good to take out a card in their hand. I like the more comboish approach, but you need a few outs to a player that loses his first game to you, but understands you play no counters.
Defense Grid seems great too. And oh, ou should play Tezzeret to fetch Extraplanar Lens.
Yeah Tezzeret has been in and out. The main drawback is I dont own candelabra . If he just fetches lens, I think gauntlet of power is better at 5 mana. I cut the other tezz artefacts like vedalkzn shackles since they are too slow
I have to test more against dedicated control decks to see if the small suite of counters is needed. Then, for the moment control other than grixis vial smasher seems to be in an all time low in France.
Yeah, having Candelabra makes Tezz a lot better. Do you think you can reliably race Vial? Jace is probably never going to flip against it, and Vial can be faster than Zurgo...
I have tested against vial and no the MU is terrible. They can kill turn 5-6 , kill jace reliably and prevent us from going off with countermagic.
The only games I won is when they didnt play vial on 3 leaving me more time to set up or if I had a perfect hand. I have to test to see if I can make this MU better without making other MU worse (Sasskia is good but its important to be fast and find 1 oe 2 bouce spells for instance)
The vial MU is a little like Geist but Geist is way better because they generally play less countermagic and not so many removal to make room for equipment, creatures etc.
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Yeah, Vial is fast... I don't think all-in combo is that viable without black for discard spells. Also, the combo depending a bit on a creature is also a bad place to be, at least no that the format is i its first days.
I don't completely agree. First, all-in combo is how I described my deck, but it is in fact a bit of "tempo"-combo since I play a lot of bounce spells. My deck is geared towards beating aggro (Sasskia, Boros partners etc), tempo and combo decks by racing them and turning the board to my advantage. For the moment, the meta has very few control (but its changing due to the popularity of vial smasher, which I have to take into account now)
As you pointed out, it is definitely weaker against control. I've had great success in very aggro-tempo meta with this build, and Maxence Achoun top 8ed the French EDH cup (the list will be on mtgtop8 one day I hope...) with a similar build. Also this build is good at winning without Jace if needed
Now, if vial smasher stays the powerhouse he is we have several solutions:
- Add a few defensive counterspells to make the control MU better while not losing a lot against aggro
- CHange completely the approach to full control and little to now combo (Jace Eldrazi or Jace MUC. the comitte members playing Jace are advocating this build).
- I think the hybrid version (kind of like we played in 30hp) is the worst now as it can't race fast decks and I don't think it has a good MU vs grixis vial either (this should be tested).
Jace top8ed the Angelic tournament in France (80 players). I haven't seen the list so I have no idea what build the player was on
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I think it's mostly a different deck. The other Jace that top-8ed this event has a list very similar to the one I presented (I based my list on his one): little to no countermagic, mass bounce spells and a focus on the combo. I think the no combo list is underexplored and has a lot of potential. Maybe it's the better way to build the deck in a meta with lots of Grixis partners? I never tried it so I cannot say a lot about this dck...
I found the list that top 8ed the angelic tournament in France: http://magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=492574 . I think the guy was Leo Carbonell, who has several top8 with the deck and seems to be a good player. He is using a list very close to what was played in 30hp but with a stronger focus on beating aggro decks (blockers, spellskite etc).
His plan is clearly to play a control deck and then win later with the combo and not race. This top8 contradicts my intuition that we need to race the aggro decks
Ronde 1 vs krenko 2 - 0
Ronde 2 vs zurgo 2 - 0
Ronde 3 vs Doran 2 - 0
Ronde 4 vs selvala 2 - 1
Ronde 5 vs Boros patner de Asimov 2 - 0
Ronde 6 vs zurgo 2 - 1
He says he was able to beat zurgo but that he was quite lucky to do so as the MU is still bad.
Going forward, I think I will try to work on the combo list (which is a lot of fun!) but tune it to have a better MU against Vial Smasher with more defensive cheap countermagic. I also have to test more against aggro
Jace seems to be able to win tournament with a lot of different lists, but we have to adapt to vial smasher. Maybe the more control eldrazi lists have a better MU against these decks?
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Two new toys for Jace! Heart of Kiran looks like it will go in basically every DC deck led by a flipwalker and also in Daretti and Teferi. 5 turn clock that can occasionally stall aggro via the small price of a loyalty counter on the opponent's turn.
Matchups were:
R1 Bye
R2 Breya control 2-0 (he finished in the top8)
R3 Breya eggs 0-2
R4 Iname 2-0
R5 Vial/Thrasios 2-0
R6 Vial/Kraum. 0-2
Going forward with the deck, I'm still not sure. Partner control and Breya are getting big in France and I'm not sure that all-in combo is were we want to be. The lists of the top8 should be on mtgtop8 shortly, the other Jace player managed to get into top8 going 6-0 into the rounds (lost to breya in the finals), with a list similar to mine but with a greater emphasis on the time walk aspect. I think he beat 4 or 5 partners during the rounds
My list was focused on being able to go off early with high tide wich works very well (only fizzled once on T4 or 5 in the last round). I think I need to play Call to mind or similar effects to get back high tide as Baby Jace generally doesnt survive very long. Cloud of Faeries is underwhelming and I think I will cut her. I like the Peregrin Drake as its a decent blocker and it can allow for a small Temporal Fissure without using high tide (I got 3 temporal fissure for storm 5-8 during the tournament without using high tide).
EDIT: I've updated the OP with my current 20 life decklist. I haven't been running Tezzeret or Candelabra in ages, so the previous list was very outdated. Cut Wasteland and Mikokoro for 2 basics, added Repeal and Negate.
Deep Analysis -> Timetwister - Control is less relevant now, and the flashback mode is usually uncastable against aggro decks because of the huge lifeloss. Timetwister is now better because after the Dig ban because it adds redundancy.
Careful Consideration-> Prism Ring - Expensive card draw is not needed anymore unless it's Fact or Fiction so I replaced it with aggro stall.
Future Sight -> Walk the Aeons - Extra time warp is better against aggro decks. It could be Wash Out.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
I haven't been able to test the deck with 20hp yet, but I'm still considering taking it to Eternal Weekend next week (the European DC cup will take place here).
My main reason to consider the deck is that since the format is still unknown, I want to do something proactive and broken. Another great news is that Gifts Ungiven is unbanned for this event, and I think the card can be broken in this deck.
I'm thinking of Gifts piles that can be good, I think the best one is stuff like 4 Time Walks?
I also don't have a lot of experience against aggro MU (mostly played against durdly control on 30hp). Can we race those decks? How are these MU? Should I consider not playing the deck if I'm expecting a very aggro meta?
Also last question: I saw a report on internet by googling "DC Jace vryin's prodigy" (EDIT: link: http://www.mtgvan.ca/duel-commander-taking-jace-vryns-prodigy-grey-haven/ ). The guy was running a more all-in combo list, with stuff like Dizzy Spell to tutor for high tide, Enter the infinite + Lab maniac as additional wincon and more untap effects (reality spasm etc). These cards feel extremely clunky but maybe this can work if the disruption is lower? Anybody tested a more combo oriented list?
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
Are you guys still working on Jace with the life change?
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
@KingBrago: The aggro matchup really depends on three things: who wins the die roll, whether or not you can flip Jace on turn 2 or 3, and whether or not you can get Ugin out by turn 6. Ugin is so critical in the aggro matchup because of the Reweave/Turnabout plan, and even without those cards it is fairly easy to ramp into Ugin if you double or triple Time Warp starting from turn 5. I wouldn't dilute the Ugin/Reweave combo with LabMan + Enter the Infinite. Dizzy Spell is also bad because it is tempo loss, and we can't tap out for 3 mana just to tutor High Tide. I don't think the High Tide Spiral plan is that good against fast aggro, because aggro will try and empty their hand against monoblue and build up their board state quickly. An early Spiral will often help the aggro player by refilling their hand. Against aggro we mostly want to resolve Temporal Fissure, Ugin, or the Palinchron combo.
Zurgo (our hardest aggro matchup) is actually a fairly even matchup if you think of Jace TU as an Oloro and race to flip him. The matchup also depends on the number of burn spells the Zurgo player runs, but any less than 12 2cmc burn spells gives us a decent chance of untapping with Jace and (hopefully) flipping him.
Here are my thoughts on potential Gifts piles:
-4x timewalks (time warp, capture, temporal manip, walk the aeons) -> get this pile if you have ugin in hand
-3x timewalks + reweave (time warp, capture, manip, reweave) -> get this if you have nothing in hand. probably the better pile most of the time.
-ugin/palinchron reweave (snapcaster, high tide, reweave, treachery/order of succession) -> this is an extension of my usual Intuition pile. get this if you're aiming to reweave a creature into palinchron. order & treachery are in case the opponent doesn't give us snapcaster, so we simply steal one of their creatures and reweave it.
-high tide spiral (frantic search, turnabout, high tide, time spiral) -> get this if ugin is irrelevant and you have nothing in hand.
-high tide fissure (temporal fissure, frantic search/turnabout, high tide, snapcaster) -> get this if ugin is irrelevant, you have less than 6 islands, and you need to reset the board. if you already have snapcaster in play or in hand, get snap instead of snapcaster, and potentially reweave instead of frantic or turnabout.
The way I've been playing Intuition recently is to give myself the option of either Reweave into Palinchron or into Ugin, and Gifts makes both goals easier because we get an extra combo piece in hand to play with.
My most common intuition pile tends to be High Tide, Reweave and Snapcaster. If they give us Reweave, we -3 High Tide and cast Reweave into Jace VP to find Ugin. If they give us Snapcaster, we -3 High Tide, then Snapcaster the Reweave to target Snapcaster and find Palinchron. This Intuition pile takes Snapcaster out of the deck so if we Reweave Snapcaster or another creature we will be guaranteed to find Palinchron.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
My idea is to make the deck more all in combo, with as much cards as possible that help us combo off when we started. The idea is to get high tide ASAP, then set up for a big turn on the last turn possible (right before our opponent kills us) and to be able to go for the kill on this turn.
This is different from the classic more controlling list with Timewalks, since you don't really want to hit timewalks when you're going for a kill. Then, Timewalks are very synergistic with Jace, and it's possible that this list is more suited for Teferi PW.
I agree with the idea that the deck needs to be more proactive as counterspells are not particularly good against decks like Doran and Jenara who are really popular at the moment.
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
I havent yet finished entering my list, but it will be on this link: http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=487930
I've cut down the number of counters to the minimum, as they are not great against most creature decks, and it allows us to combo more reliably (more chances to hit from a time spiral or a mind's desire).
I've cut the Reweave Package to be able to fit more planeswalkers and creatures. I want to play Emrakul, the Promised End who seems awesome but still haven't received the card from the postal office.
With the new unbans, I'm considering playing a Grindstone+Painter's Servant alternate wincondition. I synergizes well with Tezzeret, Grindstone can be tutured with Dizzy Spell (which is a little slow but it's ok), and we can also add an artefact tutoring package (Fabricate?) and maybe other artefacts like memory Jar. I don't know if this is the right call though, as all of this is kind of mana intensive, and it might be better in a deck like Teferi PW playing lots of mana rocks (to maximize the power of draw 7 and play Transmute Artefact etc).
Anyone still playing the deck?
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=490386
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=487930
Game plan is cantrip to find high tide. Then go for a combo (possibly when your opponent threatens to kill you so you have more time to set up. This deck is not punishing if you decide to go too early. It is almost impossible to fizzle: at worst, you'll end up with a few extra turns or an Emrakul in play, and set up for another combo turn thanks to jace)
Bounce spells are a way to win the race against aggro decks.
When comboing, all your cards draw other cards or make mana. You don't need to wait until you have 6 island to go off, generally you can make some mana, draw some cards and continue to set up either some extra turns to go off later, or a big storm spell. Temporal fissure is usually game, and a gib mind's desire generally means you win this turn. It is not unusual to win on turn 4 or create a situation from which they can't come back.
Why no counters?
- Bad against aggro (bounce are better)
- Not needed against control (Gigadrowse, spamming big draw spells are enough, especially since they play less counterpsells now). Maybe dispel/Swannsong and stuff canbe good in very controlling metas. THe emrakul trigger also wrecks control decks
- Spell based combo doesnt exist apart from the mirror. If you ind yourself battling reanimator or omnishow/storm, just race them
- Counters are bad when comboing off. You want draw spells and spells that make mana.
Last side note, I just started playing mind over matter and it is awesome. I think I need to play bigger draw spells (more card quantity over quality) to make it better, but each time I've cast it, I was able to draw the whole deck (was it overkill? I woundnt have been able to kill the same turn without it but maybe I could just have set up a few extra turns ? I don't think the card is overkill most of the time). It turns your unwanted cards (islands...) into mana. And your mana turns into more cards.
This deck races most of the format and has a fundamental turn around 4 to 6 (depending on how fast you can find High tide and if Jace survives). It's a lot of fun also (not for the opponent!)
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
Long version:
There's lots of things to take into consideration if you're playing against control( or as control against this deck).
First, if the control deck has no clock, the tide deck will win with Gigadrowse or Emrakul trigger. I generally try to bait counters with big draw spells as I said, and set up my high tide. As with most storm decks, the plan is to go for it on the last turn before they kill you. If the control can't establish pressure, I will find Gigasrowse and tap them out before the kill. if they tap out for a threat, I can kill them. They can't really kill me with card advantage since I have so much of it and will be able to keep up. I can also kill from low resources thanks to draw 7s. (NB. All of this is theory, it really depends on each player's hands and draws of course)
I have yet to find a control player who will not at least try to counter stuff like Fact or Fiction and big draw spells. I also don't think its a good strategy to let me draw as I want before countering "real threats".
The trigger of Emrakul is also uncounterable (and most dedicated control decks don't play stifle. If they have it, good for them). Also note that remand is here specifically to remand my own spells (or cantrip/timewalk if they play sth expensive)
Additional defensive counterspells are good for the control MU (I'm talking Dispel/Swann Song/Pierce/Fluster) to force your spells but not needed, and they are not so good in MU where you need to race.
Also things to note:
- COntrol deck play less counters in 20 life (still they play a good number of them)
- Most of the counters played are either clunky (3+ mana) or soft counters which can be played around
- More importantly: what decks are we talking about? From my experience, few dedicated control decks exist right now. I think the more popular is Vial/Kraum. It is a very hard MU because their clock is so fast. Our best bet is to kill them when they tap out for Vial. If they prefer to keep up interaction, that gives us more time to set up.
More tempo-y blue decks like Geist are easier since they play less countermagic and mostly soft counters. Tap out control or removal heavy decks like Narset are also good. Draw-go like Nin or clique would be bad I think but I have yet to see them in this meta
This version would probably lose to things like mono-U, mono-counterspell Vendilion Clique, but this deck is not really played right not. If the meta becomes less aggro and more control (or combo), I think I will think about adding (in this order):
- Dispel, flusterstorm, spell pierce, swann song, counterspell
Maybe defense grid is an option?
To sum up the version I'm playing now is one designed to race. It is very different from previous versions which were there to control and grind they win via combo. My list is better against decks with no counterspells and worse against counters, but it's a meta-choice, as the speed I gain is great to beat a lot of top decks (Geist -who has very few counters generally, aggro, titania, Gx combo, midrange...)
EDIT: I edited to add some new ideas, hope its still coherent!
Also, a last remark: storm spells are great to beat countermagic. If you manage to resolve a high tide (maybe they had just soft counters or wait until they can counter the payoff -bad strategy) or just have lots of mana a few cantrips into Temporal fissure is great. Mind's desire generally requires at least 7-10 storm to be sure to hit actual gas and not just islands
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
Emrakul is no a credible threat because it will cost 10 mana most of the times. So playing it without Tide seems hard - even if you manage to reduce its cost to 8. You'll be dead before that, probably.
I guess stuff like Pact of Negation or Flusterstorm are fine. Even Vendilion Clique seems good to take out a card in their hand. I like the more comboish approach, but you need a few outs to a player that loses his first game to you, but understands you play no counters.
Defense Grid seems great too. And oh, ou should play Tezzeret to fetch Extraplanar Lens.
I have to test more against dedicated control decks to see if the small suite of counters is needed. Then, for the moment control other than grixis vial smasher seems to be in an all time low in France.
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
The only games I won is when they didnt play vial on 3 leaving me more time to set up or if I had a perfect hand. I have to test to see if I can make this MU better without making other MU worse (Sasskia is good but its important to be fast and find 1 oe 2 bouce spells for instance)
The vial MU is a little like Geist but Geist is way better because they generally play less countermagic and not so many removal to make room for equipment, creatures etc.
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
As you pointed out, it is definitely weaker against control. I've had great success in very aggro-tempo meta with this build, and Maxence Achoun top 8ed the French EDH cup (the list will be on mtgtop8 one day I hope...) with a similar build. Also this build is good at winning without Jace if needed
Now, if vial smasher stays the powerhouse he is we have several solutions:
- Add a few defensive counterspells to make the control MU better while not losing a lot against aggro
- CHange completely the approach to full control and little to now combo (Jace Eldrazi or Jace MUC. the comitte members playing Jace are advocating this build).
- I think the hybrid version (kind of like we played in 30hp) is the worst now as it can't race fast decks and I don't think it has a good MU vs grixis vial either (this should be tested).
Jace top8ed the Angelic tournament in France (80 players). I haven't seen the list so I have no idea what build the player was on
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
I called it all-in because it has virtually no disruption. I too believe JaceDrazi can be quite good though. Have to test it yet.
Oh, and you should probably test Reality Shift - I think it's a very underplayed card.
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=490386
No High Tide combo. Is this the best way to go with the meta revolving around Vial Smasher the Fierce?
I found the list that top 8ed the angelic tournament in France: http://magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=492574 . I think the guy was Leo Carbonell, who has several top8 with the deck and seems to be a good player. He is using a list very close to what was played in 30hp but with a stronger focus on beating aggro decks (blockers, spellskite etc).
His plan is clearly to play a control deck and then win later with the combo and not race. This top8 contradicts my intuition that we need to race the aggro decks
He says he was able to beat zurgo but that he was quite lucky to do so as the MU is still bad.
Going forward, I think I will try to work on the combo list (which is a lot of fun!) but tune it to have a better MU against Vial Smasher with more defensive cheap countermagic. I also have to test more against aggro
Jace seems to be able to win tournament with a lot of different lists, but we have to adapt to vial smasher. Maybe the more control eldrazi lists have a better MU against these decks?
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck.php?ref=487930
Matchups were:
R1 Bye
R2 Breya control 2-0 (he finished in the top8)
R3 Breya eggs 0-2
R4 Iname 2-0
R5 Vial/Thrasios 2-0
R6 Vial/Kraum. 0-2
Going forward with the deck, I'm still not sure. Partner control and Breya are getting big in France and I'm not sure that all-in combo is were we want to be. The lists of the top8 should be on mtgtop8 shortly, the other Jace player managed to get into top8 going 6-0 into the rounds (lost to breya in the finals), with a list similar to mine but with a greater emphasis on the time walk aspect. I think he beat 4 or 5 partners during the rounds
My list was focused on being able to go off early with high tide wich works very well (only fizzled once on T4 or 5 in the last round). I think I need to play Call to mind or similar effects to get back high tide as Baby Jace generally doesnt survive very long. Cloud of Faeries is underwhelming and I think I will cut her. I like the Peregrin Drake as its a decent blocker and it can allow for a small Temporal Fissure without using high tide (I got 3 temporal fissure for storm 5-8 during the tournament without using high tide).
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)