That's because you think it's a guarantee you'll have Daretti in play. He's not even that crucial. Although I agree it can be problematic if you're going the PW-Control route, which is pretty cool too. For me the card is more of a problem for kiliing Chandra than Daretti. But Hour of Devastation deals with 99% of relevant creatures and can also kill PWs which is a big problem for us. I've been liking it but yeah, it's not a staple for me yet.
HOU cards are good, but depend on your build. For example, Abrade is great in DC 20hp, but not that impressive in 30hp. I believe Hour of Devastation falls in that same group. You don't need that Wrath as much in 30hp in order to risk your PWs.
EDIT: Just to explain a little better. What I'm getting to understand in 20hp is that Daretti is not a card that stays in play too much. He's much like Sidisi mono-black in that sense: count him as a 1-time spell, not something that'll stick on the table. Him sticking is a bonus, not what the deck is supposed to do.
This works for 30hp too, but it's easier to actually have Daretti in play for a few turns - it's harder to actually get him into play.
My deck is for 30HP is the format we are playing here. I guess its worth the sweeper thinking about it. The field in my LGS is more aggro and less Blue control with an ocasional Tasigur or Leovold. Need to add more maass removal and it seems really good now thta thinking about it. It can kill Breya and Prosh so thats important.
So, good things are coming for Daretti with Ixalan.
First, there is treasure map. If you're willing to play sunset pyramid, I think treasure map is just a straight up improvement. The early card selection combined with the busted flip effect (turning into treasure cove), combined with being an artifact is all too amazing. Sorcerous spyglass might also be a consideration. In some of my lists I played phyrexian revoker and spyglass is just miles better, since not being a creature is excellent in our deck and the bonus information is nice.
Finally, there is the planeswalker rule change. Basically the planeswalkers now have the 'legendary' supertype, which technically allows us to have multiple chandras on the field. That does not excite me very much, since I think only Torch of Defiance deserves a slot in our deck. What excites me is that now honor-worn shaku became a new worn powerstone for our deck. We can tap Daretti to untap the shaku, and if we have more planeswalkers we can generate even more mana. That's just amazing, love to see an old card become such a good addition to the deck.
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@Ashiok, I think all those cards are no that good in the deck though. Treasure Map is worse than Sunset Pyramid since Pyramid draws you cards immediately. Map takes 4 turns to come online - I really think it's that bad.
Honor-Worn Shaku is also bad, becauseyou don't want a 3 mana card that MAYBE generates 2 mana. Coalition Relic is better if we need that, and I don't think we do because mana-rocks that cost 3 mana are way too slow here. Powerstone is an exception, but even Powerstone is damn slow and cuttable.
Sorcerous Spyglass is a great addition to the deck, though. But NOT in place of Revoker. Phyrexian Revoker can stop mana sources, which is invaluable. Sometimes revoking a Thran Dynamo against Maelstrom, or a Rofellos against elfball is perfect. Spyglass substitutes Pithing Needle. There are rare stances where you need the Needle effect that early (usually against a Deathrite Shaman or a turn 1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy). Having information on what to name is way better than the 1 mana it costs more.
Map comes online in 3 turns, unless you're casting it on two wihout mana to activate. I think it is better than pyramid in being cheaper to activate and having a much stronger effect as payoff, but that might be just preference.
Shaku is better than relic now, imo. Relic is 1,5 mana per turn, where shaku is at worst 1, and at best 3 or 4. Once again, due to its ceiling, I think it is worth to use it. I think it will probably be more consistent in netting us two mana than coalition relic now that daretti is legendary.
Revoker has had its highs and lows with me. I finally decided to move away from small creatures such as revoker and welder because they die to basically all of our own sweepers and, when not dying to them, they eat up some removal spell in the opponent's hand that would otherwise be bad against us. For those reasons I moved away from stuff like revoker. I would neeeever remove needle from the deck. Card is just too good. I would certainly play both spyglass and needle.
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Treasure Map takes 4 turns, because you need to tap to transform it and both abilities from Treasure Cove also need tapping. So after you transform it you still need to untap to net 1 card.
Comparing both of them being cast turn 2 without spare mana, by turn 5 you'll have 3 more cards in hand with Pyramid, and 0 with Map (only having 3 scryes to account for). It ramps 3 mana for you on turn 5, which is probably too slow anyway though.
Shaku may be better than Relic IF you have legendary permanents you're willing to tap. What are our legendary-non-mana permanents? Daretti, Mindslaver, maybe Neheb, and the PWs (maybe I'm forgetting a creature). I really don't think we need it. I cut Worn Powerstone for Star Compass in my latest builds because it's too slow. Daretti NEEDS to hit the table on turn 3 against aggro, so even Powerstone doesn't make the cut for me now.
I have a hard time putting Revoker against Needle, since they're both excellent. There's a case for playing all 3 (Revoker, Needle and Spyglass) in the deck, since we have so few ways to deal with PWs. But I cannot count how many times I Revoked a crucial mana source of the opponent, delaying him enough for me to take control of the game. Mana rocks against Breya/Kaalia, Big mana rocks against Maelstrom (things like Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo, etc) or big mana producers like Rofellos or even an Llanowar Elves just to stop that turn 3-4 Titania. I love it.
Artifact (2)
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.
==> A cheap artifact to slow down opponents. It's pretty interesting, although maybe less impactful in commander compared in modern.
The First Eruption
Enchantment - Saga (2R)
(As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter. Sacrifice after III.)
I - The First Eruption deals 1 damage to each creature without flying.
II - Add RR.
III - Sacrifice a Mountain. If you do, The First Eruption deals 3 damage to each creature.
==> Probably too slow for us, but the double wrath and the mana boost could also prove useful
Jaya Ballard
Legendary Planeswalker - Jaya (2RRR)
(Comes with 5 Loyalty)
+1: Add RRR. Spend this mana only to cast instant or sorcery spells.
+1: Discard up to three cards, then draw that many cards.
-8: You get an emblem with "You may cast instant and sorcery cards from your graveyard. If a card cast this way would be put into your graveyard, exile it instead."
==> The fact you can chain Jaya and a wrath is pretty interesting.
Karn, Scion of Urza
Legendary Planeswalker - Karn (4)
(Comes with 5 Loyalty)
+1: Reveal the top two cards of your library. An opponent chooses one of them. Put that card into your hand and exile the other with a silver counter on it.
-1: Put a card you own with a silver counter on it from exile into your hand.
-2: Create a 0/0 colorless Construct artifact creature token with "This creature gets +1/+1 for each artifact you control."
==> As a drawer it's not great, but it has a nice body for the cost and the colorless Constructs can prove very interesting !
Squee, the Immortal
Legendary Creature - Goblin 2/1 (1RR)
You may cast Squee, the Immortal from your graveyard or from exile.
==> I find small creatures in Daretti a bit shady because they'll attract the opponent's removals and it won't survive our own wrath, but the sheer recursion of Squee can make it worthwhile to buy time.
Urza's Tome
Artifact (2)
3,T: Draw a card. Then discard a card unless you exile a historic card from your graveyard. (Artifacts, legendaries, and Sagas are historic.)
==> Probably way too slow. But for those who like the pyramid, it can sometimes be better ?
I didn't include Mox Amber cause it's way to slow for us
The other big piece of news is the rules change regarding Planeswalkers Damage redirection. It probably makes it harder for us to get rid of PW since our wraths don't reach them anymore. Like someone said on another topic:
This means that Earthquake, Rolling Earthquake, Purphoros, God of the Forge and Fiery Confluence (and others!) will no longer be able to redirect damage to 'Walkers.
If you ask me, PW didn't need to be even harder to remove, I don't like this change, but oh well. In my meta I rarely see any planeswaker apart from Tefeiri and the occasional Liliana, so I don't know if it hurts us that much, but it's still bad news.
This rule change regarding planeswalker is pretty bad for us. I played fiery confluence mainly because it was flexible enough to kill planeswalkers,creatures or artifacts. I don't care about damage to the player. This might make me remove confluence from the list.
I like to build a planeswalker-centric version of daretti, so both Jaya and Karn are worth taking a look into, but I'm afraid we're gonna have to start to play one or two wraths that take down walkers as well, such as Hour of Devastation. It is just so bad with Daretti. I wish some new minor wrath effects show up, something like a 1RR 3 damage to each creature or 4 to each planeswalker.
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Impacted cards in my list (which is basically Cesidio Vischi's list on mtgtop8) are :
- Rolling Earthquake
- Slagstorm
- Fiery Confluence
By the way, I'm a new Daretti player (hi !), I've actually brought the deck to its first FNM last night (French commander, 20 Life). We were only six players that day, but oh well, I ended up with 2 Wins and 1 Draw despite some huge misplays on my part. Ruination was definitely MVP, it utterly destroyed a Samut twice just by itself. I beat an Arahbo too, and the draw was to Scarab God.
I loved the deck, but I regretted that I had some game winning cards to bring back with Daretti too rarely. That's namely why I lost a loooot of time against Scarab God which resulted in a draw. Bringing back a Lodestone Golem didn't feel good. Hollow One didn't really convinced me either. Thus I decided :
-1 Hollow One
-1 Lodestone Golem
+1 Combustible Gearhulk
+1 Steel Hellkite (even if I don't like the fact it doesn't do anything when it hits the board, there's some upside)
Pithing Needle performed well so I'd also like to bring in a Sorcerous Spyglass but I don't know what to bring out.
The first one I can see how it'd be super powerful right off the bat. The second it feels like a super safe way to stall the game against aggro until we get to wrath the board. The last one can be really rough for the opponent, but I don't know if the effort is worth it. What do you think ? Do they deserve a spot ?
Don't take this as heavy criticism, but you're playing some cards in your list that I would never consider in a Daretti deck. Seething song, pyrokinesis and simian spirit guide, to name a few. I think if you take a step back, you will notice that your list has all-innish elements, such as this fast mana, while also playing for the long game with the traditional wildfire, burning of xinye package.
My suggestion is for you to choose one, and if you're going to choose, I suggest doing something akin to my list, which is wildfire ramp control. Here is the decklist:
I've playtest many of the cards in your list and I don't think they're playable. I will try to address the less obvious ones and give a brief comment on the more obvious ones:
1 - phyrexian furnace and scrabbling claws: these cards are terrible graveyard hate, and we only played them when necrotic ooze was an existing threat to the meta. Since it isn't anymore, I would not play any graveyard hate. We beat graveyard combo decks such as iname by killing their lands. If you feel that you REALLY need some, play relic of the progenitus. It hurts us too, but at least it is a good card.
2 - Gearhulk, Hellkite, Sundering Titan, Triskelion, Duplicant - these cards are all expensive and as a general rule they're really bad. The ceiling in them is high, indeed, but most of the time they die doing very very little. Consider that we barely play any creatures, so you can't count on having your threats surviving because your opponent will have removal to spare. Gearhulk's effect most of the time causes some damage and he dies, duplicant removes one measly creature and dies, hellkite dies doing nothing, and sundering titan, even though apparently a very good creature, is bad. It is just too expensive for its effect, and you have to see that, in Daretti, you don't put your artifacts expecting to always get them back from the graveyard. You HAVE to be able to cast them normally. Consider now that your opponent has a board full of creatures ready to kill you and you cast titan to destroy lands. Does that help you? Probably not. That's why, when it comes to creatures, you should play four: wurmcoil, battlesphere and dark-dwellers, all three of which usually can stabilize the board on their own and have effects that are good even in face of removal. Finally, forgemaster, just because if you untap with it you most likely win the game.
3 - Nevinyrral's disk and jokulhaups: if they break your artifacts, they're bad for you. Your deck is ramp and land destruction. Period. If you add artifact destruction it gets really hard to cast these cards and remain with a favorable board state. You might think that you will have planeswalkers out all the time. That's not how things usually work.
4 - Cards that work against counterspells, such as boseiju and overmaster - here is what you have to keep in mind: you're playing 99 cards. If you wanna add something in your deck not to be a silver bullet, such as a mindslaver effect, you need multiple copies of this effect for it to work effectively. If you play just 2 cards against draw-go blue decks, it is better to play none. If you wanna really prepare for the matchup, then add defense grid, pyroblast, red elemental blast, etc. Actually prepare. However, ever since the change to 20 life points I think this is completely unnecessary.
5 - Remove all fast mana, add more board wipes. Take a look at my list to have a hint as to why. Also remove cards that are looting effects, such as faithless lootings, tormenting voice, etc. I've tested them for a long time and they're not good.
From my list, I'm currently testing Hour of Devastation + the crucible/fetchlands package. I wanna see if they're good enough or not. Aether Flash is also another one that can go to the chopping block soon, it is a relic from the time Edgar was legal, and I'm gonna monitor its perfomance.
Things that you might find weird on my list, but are good: 1) cards with a higher mana curve that are not artifact, but end the game - karn, ugin, devastation, destructive force. Play these cards. They are worth it. 2) bunchs of mana rocks - you're a ramp control deck. Never forget that. Mana rocks are your bread and butter. 3) Mishra's Helix: absolutely devastating card with all the mana rocks, and together with winter orb and tangle wire they're your 'prison' package that doesn't include blowing up lands. 4) Pyromancer's goggles: this card is not excellent and I know that. However, it serves a VERY important function - deals with titania. If you're playing against titania and she is out, you can't cast wildfire effects because your opponent will be left with tons of tokens. However, if you COPY the wilfire effects, the copy will remove titania and destroy almost all her lands, then the original spell will kill all the tokens that popped up, and any lands that survived. Absolutely game-winning play, though hard to pull off, I will admit.
That's all I have to offer you. Good luck and good testing. Any doubts, question, criticism or else, feel free to reply.
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Ashiok, you don't notice that this isn't a ramp deck, it's a control/combo deck with prison elements.
You really need to understand that before read the following. I think the two archetype are both playable
I'll try to answer you for all the points, but I don't understand your ramp list, there are some incoherent things : for exemple you can't play cards like bolt, wasteland or flam slash in ramp deck, the "one for one" is really bad. They dilute your principal plan.
My objectif is to make a "big turn", that"s why I play those CDA cards (Seething song, pyrokinesis and simian spirit guid etc...)
There are really bad in ramp, but pretty good in prison/fast combo/fast lock)
I obviously can't play Karn, Ugin etc because my pack can regularly reach the 6 CCM only.
1) Yes those cards are bad, but it's difficult to find 99 GOODS cards in mono red control/prison. They run with, tangle wire, give metalcraft, cycling for only one (easy to play this T1, rock T2 with cycling EOT in bad match up)
2) Your right, gearhulk and Hellkite are bad, don't play this ***** :D, I like triskelion and duplicant for their defensive impact, and sundering titan for his capacity to close the game.
3) You're wrong, my list isn't a ramp and land destruction deck. Jokulhaups with only a planswalker (or a Hangarback Walker <3 ) is a kill for me.
4) defense grid, pyroblast, red elemental are too bad against aggro but your analyse is OK. I see Overmaster as a filler, like the 2 hategrave but we can cycle this, it isn't really restrictive for me. Baral's match up is not good for me, so I choose to play Boseiju. It's a metagame'card.
5) Faithless looting help the combo part of the deck but in ramp list, it's bad.
I see this as my 43 lands too.
Hey, thanks for the reply, I think most of our disagreement can be solved by my opening statement on the previous post:
I think if you take a step back, you will notice that your list has all-innish elements, such as this fast mana, while also playing for the long game with the traditional wildfire, burning of xinye package. My suggestion is for you to choose one, and if you're going to choose, I suggest doing something akin to my list, which is wildfire ramp control.
I think the list that was posted is trying to do two things at once: be a ramp deck and also a sort of 'legacy sneak attack' type of deck, where you play fast mana to quickly deploy threats. I think doing these two things at once is not great, and it is better to commit to one. I think the ramp is strategy is better, because it is more reliable and consistent in the long run, but I don't mind if people wanna try different things. The rest of my criticism on the list was done assuming the player chose to go for a ramp-wildfire type of strategy.
Now, two things that I need to address:
1) Bolt/flame slash/abrade are concessions that you make for the early game. There was a point in modern where infect was so popular that G/R tron decks had to play 4 copies of bolt main deck, even though bolt is NOT the card for tron decks. These cards in my list are concessions to this sort of scenario. Sometimes you need to deal with a problematic early threat like a mother of runes, a dack fayden, or kill a titania before wiping the board. I agree that they are not in tune with the main gameplan, but they're a necessary evil. I've tinkered with the slots a lot to come to that conclusion. I might consider swiping flame slash for mizzium mortars, but I noticed that when I play mortars I never ever overload, so it was better to just play the cheapest card.
2) If you wanna commit to your fast-mana-into-prison-elements game plan, by all means do it. But why aren't you playing desperate ritual, piretic ritual, rite of flame, trinisphere, static orb, etc. etc.? You could try to make the overall strategy of the deck more geared towards that. If lootings is good, you could also play tormenting voice, cathartic reunion, wild guess, magmatic insight, etc.
What I don't understand is why the list is split in the middle of two strategies, that is all.
EDIT: btw, wasteland is an excellent card and doesn't go against a ramp strategy. You can just choose not to use it, it still counts as a land. Especially now that I'm testing crucible, I can't see a reason not to run the card.
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If you wanna commit to your fast-mana-into-prison-elements game plan, by all means do it. But why aren't you playing desperate ritual, piretic ritual, rite of flame, trinisphere, static orb, etc. etc.? You could try to make the overall strategy of the deck more geared towards that. If lootings is good, you could also play tormenting voice, cathartic reunion, wild guess, magmatic insight, etc
Too bad in my list, you haven't 8 sol land for 60 card, so impossible to abuse of trinisphere or static orb, and 2CCM mana rock are better than other fast mana ritual
But with a safe manabase, I think something like Geosurge can be OK
The other point is that you need to kill, that's why I play Wildfire/Jokhulaups/Battlesphere/Sundering titan and the payoff is really good. You can't play only stax element without create a clock. I think it's that's why you are talking about an "hybrid version"
What I don't understand is why the list is split in the middle of two strategies, that is all.
Hum, I'm not agree with this : for me, it's not really a part of ramp strategy. It's create some combinaison that allow you to get early 6 manas and create the set up for a Wildfire like, or put a kill (with Daretti, or without)
I take it you may be the Cesidio I took the list from ? Or just someone who happen to run a very close pile ?
Hangarback Walker is indeed a good one that I should probably add, although you can't bring it back with Daretti...
I'd be curious though as to why no Combustible Gearhulk ? I mean... with the high CMC of our cards, the opponent will probably think twice before taking the damage, so that's a nice way to draw cards.
Same for Memory Jar : it's so high impact when you crack it ! You fill the graveyard and draw answers to the opponent's board at the same time.
Don't you think we could add another Wildfire-like card like Devastation or Destructive Force ?
I like both of your versions guys, by the way thanks Ashiok for the answer and suggestions !
From what I get, your list is pretty close though. The only differences I see are : you're trading fast mana for "slow but durable mana", and you don't seem to count on Daretti himself to do much since you have very few big artifacts to bring back. Instead you're playing the big Tron-suite of planeswalkers and a few more Wildfires. I just wonder if it's not too slow for my meta... If you're not drawing into one of said 4 wildfires after all your set up : it must be pretty hard to come back, isn't it ?
I love Mishra Helix and Crumbling Sanctuary, I'll probably try them next time. Have you tried them yourself, Meideros ?
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
What I don't understand is why the list is split in the middle of two strategies, that is all.
Hum, I'm not agree with this : for me, it's not really a part of ramp strategy. It's create some combinaison that allow you to get early 6 manas and create the set up for a Wildfire like, or put a kill (with Daretti, or without)
I like both of your versions guys, by the way thanks Ashiok for the answer and suggestions !
From what I get, your list is pretty close though. The only differences I see are : you're trading fast mana for "slow but durable mana", and you don't seem to count on Daretti himself to do much since you have very few big artifacts to bring back. Instead you're playing the big Tron-suite of planeswalkers and a few more Wildfires. I just wonder if it's not too slow for my meta... If you're not drawing into one of said 4 wildfires after all your set up : it must be pretty hard to come back, isn't it ?
So, I think it is helpful if I address these comments that I think revolve around the same point: the decks are more or less the same, both are trying to get lots of mana to cast big spells ahead of the curve and create an assymetric board state. On surface, if you just look at it like that, then yes. However, there is a big difference between fast mana and, let's say, 'durable' mana:
1) fast mana is card disadvantage - that is the cost that you pay to have it faster. Simian spirit guide, lotus petal, seething song and all these things are cards usually associated with stompy decks, where your goal is to try to close the game quickly. If you're playing Daretti, which is a control deck, you're putting yourself at a very great risk by playing these cards. If they don't pay off for any reason, you're reducing considerably your chances of winning because you could be playing cards that did better things in their slots.
2) fast mana, if too consistent, becomes broken. That's kinda obvious and the reason why black lotus is banned everywhere and restricted in vintage and also why seething song and rite of flame were banned in modern. However, once you lower the consistency threshold, there comes a point where fast mana becomes just bad because it is card disadvantage at it is core. I believe that we're always at this point in commander. The only deck that could consistently pull big mana turns was high tide jace due to the sheer amount of redundancy blue cantrips offer. This Daretti list is nowhere near close the level of redundancy necessary, in my opinion, to exploit the advantages of fast mana. Therefore, you're making the deck worse overall.
Alright, these two points out of the way, here is why I said the list looked mixed to me: if you favor mana rocks in face of rituals like rite of flame, pyretic and desperate ritual that net you EXACTLY the same amount of mana that simian spirit guide and petal, then you shouldn't be playing petal and simian spirit guide. And, to me, mana rocks are better, simply because you can build Daretti to LEVERAGE those mana rocks. When a maelstrom wanderer deck uses mana rocks, it is doing so to cast the general and cascade into something that the maelstromplayer hopes will end the game. We're using it to play cards that will create an assymetric board state, not (necessarily) to ramp into some big, massive threat. Winter Orb and Mishra's Helix are prime examples of that. If we didn't have mana rocks, those cards would be bad, but with the rocks they're excellent. Wildfire effects follow the same line of thinking, although they're also big mana spells. And finally: the mana rocks synergize with our general, allowing us to exchange for more useful artifacts in the late game. Therefore, they're just better overall, and that leads me to my last point.
I do depend on Daretti, but I depend differently. Most people when seeing Daretti get excited to exploit its second ability, the -2, but that ability is considerably harder to exploit because it requires a good amount of set up while also making the general reduce its loyalty, getting it vulnerable to attacks and increasing the chances of forcing you to recast it. The setup: you need to put something good in the yard, have your opponent not remove it, have another artifact in play and have Daretti on your board to do the exchange. That is a LOT to ask. Now, look at Daretti's first ability: it is much more powerful than it might appear at first glance. First it increases his loyalty by a good amount, almost guaranteeing that he will live through the turn, but then it also solves the biggest issue with ramp decks, which is the thing that Semoreh criticized: after you play all your ramp, what is to say that you will have threats to deploy? Well, Daretti. If you are using Daretti, you're seeing three cards a turn. That's insanely powerful. I would go as far as to say that the best Daretti players are the ones that careful exploit Daretti's first ability, not its second one. You have to keep that ability in mind the whole game, because you have to consider if you're gonna play your lands or hold them up, if you're gonna get rid of some removal in your hand or some ramp or some big threat, and what you're expecting to find once you activate it, and when is the best moment to activate it. Even after playing this deck a lot I still don't think I have mastered the way to use Daretti's first ability to its fullest extent, but I certainly got better at it. And that's why you can play tons of rocks and much less threats and still reliably find them every single game - you're looking at lots of extra cards. Of course, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't consider Daretti -2 which is still excellent. Sometimes you discard something in a turn thinking to get it back on the battlefield for the next, but in my humble opinion this deck works better if you focus on making it about Daretti's +2 instead of -2, and for that a ramp-into-wildfire strategy seems to be the most adequate.
I hope this clarifies my point of view.
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I'd be curious though as to why no Combustible Gearhulk ? I mean... with the high CMC of our cards, the opponent will probably think twice before taking the damage, so that's a nice way to draw cards.
Same for Memory Jar : it's so high impact when you crack it ! You fill the graveyard and draw answers to the opponent's board at the same time.
Gearhulk is pretty bad : Put 6/8 points with her is useless in many situation because the rest of the pack is not made to put points to the opponent (sure, he never let us draw...)
And 6CCM for a 6/6... is not very impactant (also, there are 6CCM more interesting whatever the situation, like wurmcoil, triskelion etc...)
I love memory jar, i always play with in 30 life, but it's a little slow in 20 life
I love Mishra Helix and Crumbling Sanctuary, I'll probably try them next time. Have you tried them yourself, Meideros ?
Mishra Helix is too slow for me, against aggro's match up (saskia, partner aggro, kytheon, zurgo etc...) it's totally useless and Crumbling sanctuary seems OK but I prefer sun droplet
Ashiok, I perfectly understand your point of view, but in this metagame, you can't ramp for 3/4 turn, the opponent kill quickly, although Daretti is a perfect general for the ramp strategy, for the reasons you mentioned.
I think you must deal with his strategy as quickly as possible.
Furthermore, many builds are more resilient against wrath (partner in particular)
The risk/reward's ratio about fast mana is OK for me, but you're right, you have to find a payoff for cast them.
You says "This Daretti list is nowhere near close the level of redundancy necessary, in my opinion, to exploit the advantages of fast mana" and it's true, but I see these 3 cards like a "bonus"and not a constant strategy
However, SSG is very good against force spike/daze effects, Lotus Petal is a little bit like an 9e 2ccm mana rock when I want to cast Daretti on turn 3, if not, it's the 6e mana for wildfire.
But I'm aware about i'm more dependant on Daretti in my build than you, in your ramp version
Congrats on your result at the latest Zap tournament (top 16, 174 players) with the only Daretti in the room
I was there too with a Kytheon but it didn't fare well and I ended 4-4 at the 78th position.
Did you like Karn ? You haven't tried Jaya by any chance ?
Zalfirin Void is a great addition. Mishra's Bauble, why not.
Can you explain Sulfur Elemental though ? Is it a meta call ? Sure I play Kytheon and I'd hate to meet it, but apart from that I have never understood the point of this card in your lists :x
Looking at M19 spoilers :
- Fountain of Renewal could maybe replace one card like Scrabbling Claw ? It also cycles (although it's more expensive) and the lifegain is nothing to scoff at.
- Transmogrifying Wand could be an interesting removal
These are the only cards that stand out to me...
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
Karn is really good, all abilities are fine, against aggro, against control, the token is usually 2/2, sometimes 3/3...
I like Zalfirin Void, it's so appreciable to deal with the top of your library for a mono red control. Mishra's bauble is just OK, but we need 99 cards...
However Ratchet bomb was bad, so I replace her with Overmaster.
Regarding to Sulfur Elemental, it's always "OK".
It's a silverbullet against Whinee White (I don't like thalia, mother of runes, all the white cats etc...)
He can block and kill saskia and Baral, he can fight a PW (it's always difficult to deal with PW...) or recovering the monarch against Marchesa
He can shumpblock agains mono G, reduce shalai's toughness (and sometimes, it's very good to reduce tymnna or Gaddock to X/1 or Ojutai to X/3)
I hadn't try Jaya, 5 mana, it's too much for me for a PW who doesn't protect herself.
Looking at M19 spoilers, The foutain would be very awesome against Zurgo but now, it's not really interesting since the ban (I had also cut Sun Droplet)
I prefer the claw or the furnace for the following sequence : T1 Claw T2 mana rock + Sacrifice the Claw for draw something better
I think Ransmogrifying Wand is bad : it's difficult to kill the X/4 with this list (or X/3 thanks Sulfur elemental :)) and I don't like the restriction "Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcer"
Yes it was my first biggish tournament. I loved it, will participate again
I can see how Ratchet Bomb could be disappointing in a meta with a lot of heavy control decks. Overmaster is a nice edge against Baral / Tefeiri.
Thanks for your insight on Sulfur Elemental,thanks. I guess it is almost always useful in a way ^^
Regarding the Fountain of Renewal and the cut of Sun Droplet : I think we need to be careful about dissing Red Deck Wins. Because of the ban of Zurgo people didn't bring mono red decks at the tournament, but there were still 2 Kari Zev's and one managed to be in the top 16. I think this tournament was an exception and we'll see more and more people tuning their ex-Zurgo decks into a Kari Zev (or Baby Chandra).
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
I won against a Yisan 2-1, wrathing his board several times. He was very good at rebuilding, but Wildfire really nailed the coffin by destroying both his lands and his creatures. Pithing needle and Sorcerous Spyglass were nice edges, although Yisan is a good deck for tutoring answers to artifacts.
I then won against a Scarab God 2-0. Daretti slipped under counterspells both times. First game I win with a perfect Blood Moon : opponent was stuck with only mountains. Second game I land another blood moon but he had fetched basics. A Jokulhaups destroyed the board and then suddenly the Blood Moon became much more effective
Then I proceeded to lose against two mono blue decks, one Baral and one Tefeiri. These matchups don't seem very good, and they're VERY common these days. They're also super boring. I despise mono blue with a passion, to the point I'm seriously considering adding Boil and/or Boiling Seas (possibly white bordered) in the main deck as a silver bullet. Worst case scenario I cycle it, right ? ^^
Plus Baral is barely playing any counterspell. It would be harder to slip under a Tefeiri but it's still possible I guess.
Yes it's difficult, I'm thinking about playing Treasure Map against U deck (boil is better but do nothing against the rest of the field)
There is also Boseiju, Who Shelters All (as the 43'land)
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HOU cards are good, but depend on your build. For example, Abrade is great in DC 20hp, but not that impressive in 30hp. I believe Hour of Devastation falls in that same group. You don't need that Wrath as much in 30hp in order to risk your PWs.
EDIT: Just to explain a little better. What I'm getting to understand in 20hp is that Daretti is not a card that stays in play too much. He's much like Sidisi mono-black in that sense: count him as a 1-time spell, not something that'll stick on the table. Him sticking is a bonus, not what the deck is supposed to do.
This works for 30hp too, but it's easier to actually have Daretti in play for a few turns - it's harder to actually get him into play.
First, there is treasure map. If you're willing to play sunset pyramid, I think treasure map is just a straight up improvement. The early card selection combined with the busted flip effect (turning into treasure cove), combined with being an artifact is all too amazing. Sorcerous spyglass might also be a consideration. In some of my lists I played phyrexian revoker and spyglass is just miles better, since not being a creature is excellent in our deck and the bonus information is nice.
Finally, there is the planeswalker rule change. Basically the planeswalkers now have the 'legendary' supertype, which technically allows us to have multiple chandras on the field. That does not excite me very much, since I think only Torch of Defiance deserves a slot in our deck. What excites me is that now honor-worn shaku became a new worn powerstone for our deck. We can tap Daretti to untap the shaku, and if we have more planeswalkers we can generate even more mana. That's just amazing, love to see an old card become such a good addition to the deck.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Honor-Worn Shaku is also bad, becauseyou don't want a 3 mana card that MAYBE generates 2 mana. Coalition Relic is better if we need that, and I don't think we do because mana-rocks that cost 3 mana are way too slow here. Powerstone is an exception, but even Powerstone is damn slow and cuttable.
Sorcerous Spyglass is a great addition to the deck, though. But NOT in place of Revoker. Phyrexian Revoker can stop mana sources, which is invaluable. Sometimes revoking a Thran Dynamo against Maelstrom, or a Rofellos against elfball is perfect. Spyglass substitutes Pithing Needle. There are rare stances where you need the Needle effect that early (usually against a Deathrite Shaman or a turn 1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy). Having information on what to name is way better than the 1 mana it costs more.
Map comes online in 3 turns, unless you're casting it on two wihout mana to activate. I think it is better than pyramid in being cheaper to activate and having a much stronger effect as payoff, but that might be just preference.
Shaku is better than relic now, imo. Relic is 1,5 mana per turn, where shaku is at worst 1, and at best 3 or 4. Once again, due to its ceiling, I think it is worth to use it. I think it will probably be more consistent in netting us two mana than coalition relic now that daretti is legendary.
Revoker has had its highs and lows with me. I finally decided to move away from small creatures such as revoker and welder because they die to basically all of our own sweepers and, when not dying to them, they eat up some removal spell in the opponent's hand that would otherwise be bad against us. For those reasons I moved away from stuff like revoker. I would neeeever remove needle from the deck. Card is just too good. I would certainly play both spyglass and needle.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Comparing both of them being cast turn 2 without spare mana, by turn 5 you'll have 3 more cards in hand with Pyramid, and 0 with Map (only having 3 scryes to account for). It ramps 3 mana for you on turn 5, which is probably too slow anyway though.
Shaku may be better than Relic IF you have legendary permanents you're willing to tap. What are our legendary-non-mana permanents? Daretti, Mindslaver, maybe Neheb, and the PWs (maybe I'm forgetting a creature). I really don't think we need it. I cut Worn Powerstone for Star Compass in my latest builds because it's too slow. Daretti NEEDS to hit the table on turn 3 against aggro, so even Powerstone doesn't make the cut for me now.
I have a hard time putting Revoker against Needle, since they're both excellent. There's a case for playing all 3 (Revoker, Needle and Spyglass) in the deck, since we have so few ways to deal with PWs. But I cannot count how many times I Revoked a crucial mana source of the opponent, delaying him enough for me to take control of the game. Mana rocks against Breya/Kaalia, Big mana rocks against Maelstrom (things like Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo, etc) or big mana producers like Rofellos or even an Llanowar Elves just to stop that turn 3-4 Titania. I love it.
Damping Sphere
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.
==> A cheap artifact to slow down opponents. It's pretty interesting, although maybe less impactful in commander compared in modern.
The First Eruption
(As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter. Sacrifice after III.)
I - The First Eruption deals 1 damage to each creature without flying.
II - Add RR.
III - Sacrifice a Mountain. If you do, The First Eruption deals 3 damage to each creature.
==> Probably too slow for us, but the double wrath and the mana boost could also prove useful
Jaya Ballard
(Comes with 5 Loyalty)
+1: Add RRR. Spend this mana only to cast instant or sorcery spells.
+1: Discard up to three cards, then draw that many cards.
-8: You get an emblem with "You may cast instant and sorcery cards from your graveyard. If a card cast this way would be put into your graveyard, exile it instead."
==> The fact you can chain Jaya and a wrath is pretty interesting.
Karn, Scion of Urza
(Comes with 5 Loyalty)
+1: Reveal the top two cards of your library. An opponent chooses one of them. Put that card into your hand and exile the other with a silver counter on it.
-1: Put a card you own with a silver counter on it from exile into your hand.
-2: Create a 0/0 colorless Construct artifact creature token with "This creature gets +1/+1 for each artifact you control."
==> As a drawer it's not great, but it has a nice body for the cost and the colorless Constructs can prove very interesting !
Squee, the Immortal
You may cast Squee, the Immortal from your graveyard or from exile.
==> I find small creatures in Daretti a bit shady because they'll attract the opponent's removals and it won't survive our own wrath, but the sheer recursion of Squee can make it worthwhile to buy time.
Urza's Tome
3,T: Draw a card. Then discard a card unless you exile a historic card from your graveyard. (Artifacts, legendaries, and Sagas are historic.)
==> Probably way too slow. But for those who like the pyramid, it can sometimes be better ?
I didn't include Mox Amber cause it's way to slow for us
The other big piece of news is the rules change regarding Planeswalkers Damage redirection. It probably makes it harder for us to get rid of PW since our wraths don't reach them anymore. Like someone said on another topic:
If you ask me, PW didn't need to be even harder to remove, I don't like this change, but oh well. In my meta I rarely see any planeswaker apart from Tefeiri and the occasional Liliana, so I don't know if it hurts us that much, but it's still bad news.
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
I like to build a planeswalker-centric version of daretti, so both Jaya and Karn are worth taking a look into, but I'm afraid we're gonna have to start to play one or two wraths that take down walkers as well, such as Hour of Devastation. It is just so bad with Daretti. I wish some new minor wrath effects show up, something like a 1RR 3 damage to each creature or 4 to each planeswalker.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
New Karn looks great for Daretti.Definitly will try to get him.
- Rolling Earthquake
- Slagstorm
- Fiery Confluence
By the way, I'm a new Daretti player (hi !), I've actually brought the deck to its first FNM last night (French commander, 20 Life). We were only six players that day, but oh well, I ended up with 2 Wins and 1 Draw despite some huge misplays on my part. Ruination was definitely MVP, it utterly destroyed a Samut twice just by itself. I beat an Arahbo too, and the draw was to Scarab God.
I loved the deck, but I regretted that I had some game winning cards to bring back with Daretti too rarely. That's namely why I lost a loooot of time against Scarab God which resulted in a draw. Bringing back a Lodestone Golem didn't feel good. Hollow One didn't really convinced me either. Thus I decided :
-1 Hollow One
-1 Lodestone Golem
+1 Combustible Gearhulk
+1 Steel Hellkite (even if I don't like the fact it doesn't do anything when it hits the board, there's some upside)
Pithing Needle performed well so I'd also like to bring in a Sorcerous Spyglass but I don't know what to bring out.
I'm also considering three other cards and I'd like your opinion :
- Memory Jar
- Crumbling Sanctuary
- Devastating Dreams
The first one I can see how it'd be super powerful right off the bat. The second it feels like a super safe way to stall the game against aggro until we get to wrath the board. The last one can be really rough for the opponent, but I don't know if the effort is worth it. What do you think ? Do they deserve a spot ?
My current list :
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Crystal Vein
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Dust Bowl
1x Dwarven Ruins
1x Homeward Path
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Maze of Ith
1x Mishra's Factory
28x Mountain
1x Radiant Fountain
1x Rishadan Port
1x Sheltered Valley
1x Wasteland
1x Coercive Portal
1x Coldsteel Heart
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Expedition Map
1x Fellwar Stone
1x Fire Diamond
1x Fractured Powerstone
1x Guardian Idol
1x Ichor Wellspring
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mind Stone
1x Mindslaver
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Phyrexian Furnace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Prismatic Lens
1x Pyrite Spellbomb
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Scrabbling Claws
1x Sun Droplet
1x Tangle Wire
1x Thought Vessel
1x Winter Orb
1x Koth of the Hammer
1x Combustible Gearhulk
1x Duplicant
1x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Triskelion
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Blood Moon
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Burning of Xinye
1x Chain Lightning
1x Faithless Looting
1x Fiery Confluence
1x Flame Slash
1x Gamble
1x Jokulhaups
1x Overmaster
1x Rolling Earthquake
1x Ruination
1x Slagstorm
1x Sweltering Suns
1x Wildfire
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Pyrokinesis
1x Seething Song
1x Spark Spray
1x Warping Wail
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
My suggestion is for you to choose one, and if you're going to choose, I suggest doing something akin to my list, which is wildfire ramp control. Here is the decklist:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Expedition Map
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Fire Diamond
1 Fractured Powerstone
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Guardian Idol
1 Hedron Archive
1 Ichor Wellspring
1 Mind Stone
1 Mindslaver
1 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Sisay's Ring
1 Star Compass
1 Thought Vessel
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Ur-Golem's Eye
1 Winter Orb
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Mishra's Helix
1 Pyromancer's Goggles
1 Coercive Portal
1 Sphere of the Suns
1 Honor-Worn Shaku
1 Crumbling Sanctuary
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Treasure Map
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blood Moon
1 Aether Flash
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrade
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Great Furnace
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Wasteland
29 Mountain
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Burning of Xinye
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Gamble
1 Slagstorm
1 Sweltering Suns
1 Flame Slash
1 Wildfire
1 Devastation
1 Flamebreak
1 Destructive Force
1 Hour of Devastation
1 Ruination
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
I've playtest many of the cards in your list and I don't think they're playable. I will try to address the less obvious ones and give a brief comment on the more obvious ones:
1 - phyrexian furnace and scrabbling claws: these cards are terrible graveyard hate, and we only played them when necrotic ooze was an existing threat to the meta. Since it isn't anymore, I would not play any graveyard hate. We beat graveyard combo decks such as iname by killing their lands. If you feel that you REALLY need some, play relic of the progenitus. It hurts us too, but at least it is a good card.
2 - Gearhulk, Hellkite, Sundering Titan, Triskelion, Duplicant - these cards are all expensive and as a general rule they're really bad. The ceiling in them is high, indeed, but most of the time they die doing very very little. Consider that we barely play any creatures, so you can't count on having your threats surviving because your opponent will have removal to spare. Gearhulk's effect most of the time causes some damage and he dies, duplicant removes one measly creature and dies, hellkite dies doing nothing, and sundering titan, even though apparently a very good creature, is bad. It is just too expensive for its effect, and you have to see that, in Daretti, you don't put your artifacts expecting to always get them back from the graveyard. You HAVE to be able to cast them normally. Consider now that your opponent has a board full of creatures ready to kill you and you cast titan to destroy lands. Does that help you? Probably not. That's why, when it comes to creatures, you should play four: wurmcoil, battlesphere and dark-dwellers, all three of which usually can stabilize the board on their own and have effects that are good even in face of removal. Finally, forgemaster, just because if you untap with it you most likely win the game.
3 - Nevinyrral's disk and jokulhaups: if they break your artifacts, they're bad for you. Your deck is ramp and land destruction. Period. If you add artifact destruction it gets really hard to cast these cards and remain with a favorable board state. You might think that you will have planeswalkers out all the time. That's not how things usually work.
4 - Cards that work against counterspells, such as boseiju and overmaster - here is what you have to keep in mind: you're playing 99 cards. If you wanna add something in your deck not to be a silver bullet, such as a mindslaver effect, you need multiple copies of this effect for it to work effectively. If you play just 2 cards against draw-go blue decks, it is better to play none. If you wanna really prepare for the matchup, then add defense grid, pyroblast, red elemental blast, etc. Actually prepare. However, ever since the change to 20 life points I think this is completely unnecessary.
5 - Remove all fast mana, add more board wipes. Take a look at my list to have a hint as to why. Also remove cards that are looting effects, such as faithless lootings, tormenting voice, etc. I've tested them for a long time and they're not good.
From my list, I'm currently testing Hour of Devastation + the crucible/fetchlands package. I wanna see if they're good enough or not. Aether Flash is also another one that can go to the chopping block soon, it is a relic from the time Edgar was legal, and I'm gonna monitor its perfomance.
Things that you might find weird on my list, but are good: 1) cards with a higher mana curve that are not artifact, but end the game - karn, ugin, devastation, destructive force. Play these cards. They are worth it. 2) bunchs of mana rocks - you're a ramp control deck. Never forget that. Mana rocks are your bread and butter. 3) Mishra's Helix: absolutely devastating card with all the mana rocks, and together with winter orb and tangle wire they're your 'prison' package that doesn't include blowing up lands. 4) Pyromancer's goggles: this card is not excellent and I know that. However, it serves a VERY important function - deals with titania. If you're playing against titania and she is out, you can't cast wildfire effects because your opponent will be left with tons of tokens. However, if you COPY the wilfire effects, the copy will remove titania and destroy almost all her lands, then the original spell will kill all the tokens that popped up, and any lands that survived. Absolutely game-winning play, though hard to pull off, I will admit.
That's all I have to offer you. Good luck and good testing. Any doubts, question, criticism or else, feel free to reply.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
You really need to understand that before read the following. I think the two archetype are both playable
I'll try to answer you for all the points, but I don't understand your ramp list, there are some incoherent things : for exemple you can't play cards like bolt, wasteland or flam slash in ramp deck, the "one for one" is really bad. They dilute your principal plan.
My objectif is to make a "big turn", that"s why I play those CDA cards (Seething song, pyrokinesis and simian spirit guid etc...)
There are really bad in ramp, but pretty good in prison/fast combo/fast lock)
I obviously can't play Karn, Ugin etc because my pack can regularly reach the 6 CCM only.
1) Yes those cards are bad, but it's difficult to find 99 GOODS cards in mono red control/prison. They run with, tangle wire, give metalcraft, cycling for only one (easy to play this T1, rock T2 with cycling EOT in bad match up)
2) Your right, gearhulk and Hellkite are bad, don't play this ***** :D, I like triskelion and duplicant for their defensive impact, and sundering titan for his capacity to close the game.
3) You're wrong, my list isn't a ramp and land destruction deck. Jokulhaups with only a planswalker (or a Hangarback Walker <3 ) is a kill for me.
4) defense grid, pyroblast, red elemental are too bad against aggro but your analyse is OK. I see Overmaster as a filler, like the 2 hategrave but we can cycle this, it isn't really restrictive for me. Baral's match up is not good for me, so I choose to play Boseiju. It's a metagame'card.
5) Faithless looting help the combo part of the deck but in ramp list, it's bad.
I see this as my 43 lands too.
Sorry for my english, I hope I'm enought clear
Now, two things that I need to address:
1) Bolt/flame slash/abrade are concessions that you make for the early game. There was a point in modern where infect was so popular that G/R tron decks had to play 4 copies of bolt main deck, even though bolt is NOT the card for tron decks. These cards in my list are concessions to this sort of scenario. Sometimes you need to deal with a problematic early threat like a mother of runes, a dack fayden, or kill a titania before wiping the board. I agree that they are not in tune with the main gameplan, but they're a necessary evil. I've tinkered with the slots a lot to come to that conclusion. I might consider swiping flame slash for mizzium mortars, but I noticed that when I play mortars I never ever overload, so it was better to just play the cheapest card.
2) If you wanna commit to your fast-mana-into-prison-elements game plan, by all means do it. But why aren't you playing desperate ritual, piretic ritual, rite of flame, trinisphere, static orb, etc. etc.? You could try to make the overall strategy of the deck more geared towards that. If lootings is good, you could also play tormenting voice, cathartic reunion, wild guess, magmatic insight, etc.
What I don't understand is why the list is split in the middle of two strategies, that is all.
EDIT: btw, wasteland is an excellent card and doesn't go against a ramp strategy. You can just choose not to use it, it still counts as a land. Especially now that I'm testing crucible, I can't see a reason not to run the card.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
OK I understand
Too bad in my list, you haven't 8 sol land for 60 card, so impossible to abuse of trinisphere or static orb, and 2CCM mana rock are better than other fast mana ritual
But with a safe manabase, I think something like Geosurge can be OK
The other point is that you need to kill, that's why I play Wildfire/Jokhulaups/Battlesphere/Sundering titan and the payoff is really good. You can't play only stax element without create a clock. I think it's that's why you are talking about an "hybrid version"
Hum, I'm not agree with this : for me, it's not really a part of ramp strategy. It's create some combinaison that allow you to get early 6 manas and create the set up for a Wildfire like, or put a kill (with Daretti, or without)
Hangarback Walker is indeed a good one that I should probably add, although you can't bring it back with Daretti...
I'd be curious though as to why no Combustible Gearhulk ? I mean... with the high CMC of our cards, the opponent will probably think twice before taking the damage, so that's a nice way to draw cards.
Same for Memory Jar : it's so high impact when you crack it ! You fill the graveyard and draw answers to the opponent's board at the same time.
Don't you think we could add another Wildfire-like card like Devastation or Destructive Force ?
I like both of your versions guys, by the way thanks Ashiok for the answer and suggestions !
From what I get, your list is pretty close though. The only differences I see are : you're trading fast mana for "slow but durable mana", and you don't seem to count on Daretti himself to do much since you have very few big artifacts to bring back. Instead you're playing the big Tron-suite of planeswalkers and a few more Wildfires. I just wonder if it's not too slow for my meta... If you're not drawing into one of said 4 wildfires after all your set up : it must be pretty hard to come back, isn't it ?
I love Mishra Helix and Crumbling Sanctuary, I'll probably try them next time. Have you tried them yourself, Meideros ?
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
1) fast mana is card disadvantage - that is the cost that you pay to have it faster. Simian spirit guide, lotus petal, seething song and all these things are cards usually associated with stompy decks, where your goal is to try to close the game quickly. If you're playing Daretti, which is a control deck, you're putting yourself at a very great risk by playing these cards. If they don't pay off for any reason, you're reducing considerably your chances of winning because you could be playing cards that did better things in their slots.
2) fast mana, if too consistent, becomes broken. That's kinda obvious and the reason why black lotus is banned everywhere and restricted in vintage and also why seething song and rite of flame were banned in modern. However, once you lower the consistency threshold, there comes a point where fast mana becomes just bad because it is card disadvantage at it is core. I believe that we're always at this point in commander. The only deck that could consistently pull big mana turns was high tide jace due to the sheer amount of redundancy blue cantrips offer. This Daretti list is nowhere near close the level of redundancy necessary, in my opinion, to exploit the advantages of fast mana. Therefore, you're making the deck worse overall.
Alright, these two points out of the way, here is why I said the list looked mixed to me: if you favor mana rocks in face of rituals like rite of flame, pyretic and desperate ritual that net you EXACTLY the same amount of mana that simian spirit guide and petal, then you shouldn't be playing petal and simian spirit guide. And, to me, mana rocks are better, simply because you can build Daretti to LEVERAGE those mana rocks. When a maelstrom wanderer deck uses mana rocks, it is doing so to cast the general and cascade into something that the maelstromplayer hopes will end the game. We're using it to play cards that will create an assymetric board state, not (necessarily) to ramp into some big, massive threat. Winter Orb and Mishra's Helix are prime examples of that. If we didn't have mana rocks, those cards would be bad, but with the rocks they're excellent. Wildfire effects follow the same line of thinking, although they're also big mana spells. And finally: the mana rocks synergize with our general, allowing us to exchange for more useful artifacts in the late game. Therefore, they're just better overall, and that leads me to my last point.
I do depend on Daretti, but I depend differently. Most people when seeing Daretti get excited to exploit its second ability, the -2, but that ability is considerably harder to exploit because it requires a good amount of set up while also making the general reduce its loyalty, getting it vulnerable to attacks and increasing the chances of forcing you to recast it. The setup: you need to put something good in the yard, have your opponent not remove it, have another artifact in play and have Daretti on your board to do the exchange. That is a LOT to ask. Now, look at Daretti's first ability: it is much more powerful than it might appear at first glance. First it increases his loyalty by a good amount, almost guaranteeing that he will live through the turn, but then it also solves the biggest issue with ramp decks, which is the thing that Semoreh criticized: after you play all your ramp, what is to say that you will have threats to deploy? Well, Daretti. If you are using Daretti, you're seeing three cards a turn. That's insanely powerful. I would go as far as to say that the best Daretti players are the ones that careful exploit Daretti's first ability, not its second one. You have to keep that ability in mind the whole game, because you have to consider if you're gonna play your lands or hold them up, if you're gonna get rid of some removal in your hand or some ramp or some big threat, and what you're expecting to find once you activate it, and when is the best moment to activate it. Even after playing this deck a lot I still don't think I have mastered the way to use Daretti's first ability to its fullest extent, but I certainly got better at it. And that's why you can play tons of rocks and much less threats and still reliably find them every single game - you're looking at lots of extra cards. Of course, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't consider Daretti -2 which is still excellent. Sometimes you discard something in a turn thinking to get it back on the battlefield for the next, but in my humble opinion this deck works better if you focus on making it about Daretti's +2 instead of -2, and for that a ramp-into-wildfire strategy seems to be the most adequate.
I hope this clarifies my point of view.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Yes it's me
Gearhulk is pretty bad : Put 6/8 points with her is useless in many situation because the rest of the pack is not made to put points to the opponent (sure, he never let us draw...)
And 6CCM for a 6/6... is not very impactant (also, there are 6CCM more interesting whatever the situation, like wurmcoil, triskelion etc...)
I love memory jar, i always play with in 30 life, but it's a little slow in 20 life
Mishra Helix is too slow for me, against aggro's match up (saskia, partner aggro, kytheon, zurgo etc...) it's totally useless and Crumbling sanctuary seems OK but I prefer sun droplet
Ashiok, I perfectly understand your point of view, but in this metagame, you can't ramp for 3/4 turn, the opponent kill quickly, although Daretti is a perfect general for the ramp strategy, for the reasons you mentioned.
I think you must deal with his strategy as quickly as possible.
Furthermore, many builds are more resilient against wrath (partner in particular)
The risk/reward's ratio about fast mana is OK for me, but you're right, you have to find a payoff for cast them.
You says "This Daretti list is nowhere near close the level of redundancy necessary, in my opinion, to exploit the advantages of fast mana" and it's true, but I see these 3 cards like a "bonus"and not a constant strategy
However, SSG is very good against force spike/daze effects, Lotus Petal is a little bit like an 9e 2ccm mana rock when I want to cast Daretti on turn 3, if not, it's the 6e mana for wildfire.
But I'm aware about i'm more dependant on Daretti in my build than you, in your ramp version
I was there too with a Kytheon but it didn't fare well and I ended 4-4 at the 78th position.
As a reminder, here is your list :
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
Lands (42)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Dwarven Ruins
1 Homeward Path
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
18 Mountain
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Rishadan Port
1 Sheltered Valley
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Wasteland
1 Zhalfirin Void
Creatures (9)
1 Duplicant
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sundering Titan
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Triskelion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Abrade
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Chain Lightning
1 Dead / Gone
1 Faithless Looting
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Flame Slash
1 Gamble
1 Jokulhaups
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Ruination
1 Seething Song
1 Slagstorm
1 Spark Spray
1 Sweltering Suns
1 Warping Wail
1 Wildfire
Enchantments (1)
1 Blood Moon
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Expedition Map
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Fire Diamond
1 Fractured Powerstone
1 Guardian Idol
1 Ichor Wellspring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mind Stone
1 Mindslaver
1 Mishra's Bauble
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Scrabbling Claws
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Tangle Wire
1 Thought Vessel
1 Winter Orb
Did you like Karn ? You haven't tried Jaya by any chance ?
Zalfirin Void is a great addition. Mishra's Bauble, why not.
Can you explain Sulfur Elemental though ? Is it a meta call ? Sure I play Kytheon and I'd hate to meet it, but apart from that I have never understood the point of this card in your lists :x
Looking at M19 spoilers :
- Fountain of Renewal could maybe replace one card like Scrabbling Claw ? It also cycles (although it's more expensive) and the lifegain is nothing to scoff at.
- Transmogrifying Wand could be an interesting removal
These are the only cards that stand out to me...
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
Oh I don't know you were at Palaiseau
Karn is really good, all abilities are fine, against aggro, against control, the token is usually 2/2, sometimes 3/3...
I like Zalfirin Void, it's so appreciable to deal with the top of your library for a mono red control.
Mishra's bauble is just OK, but we need 99 cards...
However Ratchet bomb was bad, so I replace her with Overmaster.
Regarding to Sulfur Elemental, it's always "OK".
It's a silverbullet against Whinee White (I don't like thalia, mother of runes, all the white cats etc...)
He can block and kill saskia and Baral, he can fight a PW (it's always difficult to deal with PW...) or recovering the monarch against Marchesa
He can shumpblock agains mono G, reduce shalai's toughness (and sometimes, it's very good to reduce tymnna or Gaddock to X/1 or Ojutai to X/3)
I hadn't try Jaya, 5 mana, it's too much for me for a PW who doesn't protect herself.
Looking at M19 spoilers, The foutain would be very awesome against Zurgo but now, it's not really interesting since the ban (I had also cut Sun Droplet)
I prefer the claw or the furnace for the following sequence : T1 Claw T2 mana rock + Sacrifice the Claw for draw something better
I think Ransmogrifying Wand is bad : it's difficult to kill the X/4 with this list (or X/3 thanks Sulfur elemental :)) and I don't like the restriction "Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcer"
I can see how Ratchet Bomb could be disappointing in a meta with a lot of heavy control decks. Overmaster is a nice edge against Baral / Tefeiri.
Thanks for your insight on Sulfur Elemental,thanks. I guess it is almost always useful in a way ^^
Regarding the Fountain of Renewal and the cut of Sun Droplet : I think we need to be careful about dissing Red Deck Wins. Because of the ban of Zurgo people didn't bring mono red decks at the tournament, but there were still 2 Kari Zev's and one managed to be in the top 16. I think this tournament was an exception and we'll see more and more people tuning their ex-Zurgo decks into a Kari Zev (or Baby Chandra).
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
I won against a Yisan 2-1, wrathing his board several times. He was very good at rebuilding, but Wildfire really nailed the coffin by destroying both his lands and his creatures. Pithing needle and Sorcerous Spyglass were nice edges, although Yisan is a good deck for tutoring answers to artifacts.
I then won against a Scarab God 2-0. Daretti slipped under counterspells both times. First game I win with a perfect Blood Moon : opponent was stuck with only mountains. Second game I land another blood moon but he had fetched basics. A Jokulhaups destroyed the board and then suddenly the Blood Moon became much more effective
Then I proceeded to lose against two mono blue decks, one Baral and one Tefeiri. These matchups don't seem very good, and they're VERY common these days. They're also super boring. I despise mono blue with a passion, to the point I'm seriously considering adding Boil and/or Boiling Seas (possibly white bordered) in the main deck as a silver bullet. Worst case scenario I cycle it, right ? ^^
Plus Baral is barely playing any counterspell. It would be harder to slip under a Tefeiri but it's still possible I guess.
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
There is also Boseiju, Who Shelters All (as the 43'land)