I've been wanting to cut Mishra's Helix too, specially since Winter Orb is unbanned. But it won me so many games, specially against control... you can tap his lands EOT and to resolve stuff on your turn. BUt yeah, it's probably one of the weakest slots right now. I wonder if Icy Manipulator is better in this slot (it probably is). I've been wanting to test Ward of Bones in this slot too.
You need at least 2 artifact removals. Vandalblast and Aftershock are both good. I prefer Aftershock for versatility.
I played with Volt Charge a few games. It's good, but I prefer Dead // Gone or Mizzium Mortars or probably any other burn spell before it. I'd say I even prefer Bonfire of the Damned over it. The thing is the few times its proliferate is good are usually not worth the extra mana. Yeah, it's nice to deal 3 damage and up Daretti 1 counter, but is that really worth not being able to burn something 1 or 2 turns earlier? I guess not.
Word of Seizing seems bad, man... none of the scenarios you paint make me want to run it. If you want to run 5 mana cute stuff like that you'd probably be better off with Ugin's Nexus. Or, even better: there's your slot for Karn Liberated right there.
About Trading Post, maybe you're right that it improves the Tasigur matchup a little by chump blocking. But I don't know... 4 mana for an artifact that does absolutely nothing when it lands? And then it has (little) incremental value that really only benefits you when you're already winning? If you're using it just to chump block, go with Tawnos's Coffin which, at least, let's you do fun stuff with Myr Battlesphere and Sundering Titan. I'd probably test Icy Manipulator over it (and it will probably be better).
The problem with Ring of Gix is that if you bring it in from the graveyard you still have to pay the echo. Also, playing turn 3 and then not being able to play Daretti turn 4 sounds terrible. I really think Manipulator is far superior.
The problem with Ring of Gix is that if you bring it in from the graveyard you still have to pay the echo. Also, playing turn 3 and then not being able to play Daretti turn 4 sounds terrible. I really think Manipulator is far superior.
Sometimes ("a nonzero percent", sure), that 1 difference is relevant.
I think, ideally Ring shines because you can play it a turn sooner to tap something, then tap something in response to the Echo, and opt to not pay it if you so choose. That appears to be it's greatest selling point.
Later on you can Weld it back if you need a tap effect when the 3 won't be so much of a hindrance.
I feel like Ward of Bones is a "do nothing" here. The fact that it doesn't stop your opponent from still having one more thing than you makes it awkward.
I agree with you on Ward of Bones, but I think it's usually meant to hold off hordes, since you almost never have creatures on board. Does nothing against reanimator though...
It probably also helps after a Wildfire/Jokulhaups. You can just play no lands and he will be at 1 land forever.
I still love it. Haven't updated here in a while because of lack of tournament play with it (I've been trying Braids and Karador). But this week I played against Geist and Skithiryx. The Geist matchup got better after Top/Winter Orb/Crucible, and Skithiryx was really hard for him. We played Daretti x Skithiryx probably 5 times and I lost just 1 game, because I missed the third land drop for 4 turns... Once I got to 9 poison and still managed to control the game and turn the tides. Even with him removing my graveyard with Bojuka Bog and Relic of Progenitus I still got ahead. Daretti is such a bomb against aggro if he hits the table and they can't kill him immediately...
So, this is the last list I'm using right now. I can't seem to remember the last match I lost with it. I have played against a Geist recently to a 2x1 victory, but haven't played against any reanimator or Tasigur.
Changes:
I'm don't have free time enough right now to check if my last list posted here is the last list I had before this one, but the major changes were these:
+4 fetches
-3 Mountain
-1 Mishra's Factory
Factory seemed just to get in the way of my plans. I still kept Inkmoth Nexus in the list, mainly because it flies - but that could go if I ever wanted to put one of the utility lands in (Buried Ruin, Blinkmoth Well, Phyrexia's Core, Arcane Lighthouse or even another Mountain).
For the fetches, see Sensei's Divining Top below (that change also made me able to have only beta Mountains in the deck <3)
-1 Arcane Lighthouse
+1 Rishadan Port
Finally got my hands in a nice NM Japanese Port, and it's a must in the deck. I pondered between Inkmoth or Arcane Lighthouse, but Lighthouse doesn't seem to help against Geist/Narset that much.
-1 Faithless Looting
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
This comes together with the 4 fetches. I decided to take Looting out instead of Crystal Ball and it's been good for now. I'd still like to put Looting back in the deck, but I lack slots.
-1 Ruby Medallion
+1 Fractured Powerstone
I like Ruby in the mid/late game against control, but my artifact count got up. And after I added Gilded Lotus and Thran Dynamo, I didn't feel the need for this to help me play 2 spells per turn. Powerstone is awesome because it enters untapped, helping turn 2 Top, Needle, etc, without getting in the way of ramp.
-1 Static Orb
+1 Dead // Gone
I missed Dead/Gone too much, it had to come back in. Helps a lot against Kaalia, Braids, Animar... Also, Static Orb was, more often than not, disturbing my gameplan more than the opponent's. I know Icy Manipulator helps, but with Winter Orb in the deck I feel I'm covered.
-1 Mishra's Helix
+1 Icy Manipulator
Winter Orb changed the deck in a way that now I really can't spend that much mana to activate anything. This is still in testing, but Helix was feeling a bit slow against most decks. This could become a Volcanic Fallout someday if my meta gets too many Geist/Narset.
-1 Contagion Engine
+1 Destructive Force
This is supposed to be Devastation, but it's in the mail and haven't arrived yet. Destructive Force does a good job, though. I feel that, with Anafenza on the rise, Contagion Engine is on it's bad days. I don't know, but I've since had less and less reasons to fetch this with Kuldotha Forgemaster. I guess Ugin is also responsible for the downfall of Contagion Engine for me right now.
This is the first time I have a list I don't feel like changing that much. Devastation will get here and I'll add it, but that's it. I could see myself taking out Icy Manipulator for Volcanic Fallout or something like that. Or maybe even the recently spoiled Pia and Kiran Naalar (but that will require testing and maybe the addition of Skullclamp again :P) edit: also, I may need an Imperial Recruiter now.........
I've recently played this deck against Skythrix, Geist, Marath, Freyalise and another Daretti. All victories. I love it!
Awesome to see this thread is still going! There's a multiplayer tournament coming up in my area. How would you adapt your current list to the multiplayer banned list?
I have literally no idea. I had a Karn deck for multiplayer long ago, but it was politically terrible. I always dominated the early game and got hated out of the board. I don't know if it's a good deck for multiplayer because of that. Also I don't play multiplayer...
But you obviously put in Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Ancient Tomb, Strip Mine and Mishra's Workshop if you have. I also put in all Sphere effects I can, since all the mana helps that. Clock of Omens is also nice. Uba Mask also shines, but you get all attention from everyone...
Daretti probably could be a less prison version, more big guys. With a few things like Obliterate, etc, to ensure a nice reset. Darksteel Forge is a must. Karn, Silver Golem + Mycosynth Lattice also seems nice.
sculpting steel is INSANE in this list, are you crazy? Even if it does copy a mana rock, that's more ramp that you didn't have before. Or copying sundering Titan, or myr battle sphere, or mindslaver...it's essentially clone in this list!
Also, have you tested out bazaar of Baghdad? I'm anxious to try it out again because of that new alhamaretts archive. Because "draw four, discard three" sounds like the most value I've ever seen on a land.
The idea is to lock them out of the game before you kill them. In most cases, my opponent scoops before this happens. And honestly, that's why I put karn, silver golem in my list: to animate the rocks for a beats plan, or bring the beats with myr battle sphere.
Yeah, I don't like Sculpting Steel. It's only good depending on what you already have, so it becomes ultra situational. In a deck like daretti, if you're playing the prison version, you need another lock piece, not the same you already have.
Idk, every time I've drawn it, its been a godsend to me. Btw, copying rolling earthquake three times because of pyromancers goggles for 21 total earlier today haha...thats one of the "cuter" instances of it, but I feel its one of the card I absolutely refuse to take out of my lists, as it has dug me out of some deep holes before. I promise, artifact clone is A-ok in my book.
I believe Winter Orb is one of the best cards in the deck. It helps so much against control. And if you have Thran Dynamo or Gilded Lotus in play... You just got to know when to play it. It's not an auto play card, just like Armageddon in Grand Arbiter. I agree that Static Orb is a card that's harder to implement, but Winter Orb is awesome.
Winter Orb is great against control. If you have 1 or 2 mana rocks in play you will develop mana for your threats way faster than he will for his counters. Even if you don't, Orb can help you resolve Daretti through counters.
Of course, if you just jam it into play as soon as you can, you won't get all the benefits... but that is misplaying, not a problem with the card.
I have to agree with fsecco here; I've played literally hundreds of games with winter orb throughout my time playing magic and control is one of the main purposes of running it.
Aggro can be dangerous as most of those decks are running mana dudes, and likely running Orb itself to keep things asymmetrical. As most of the creatures run now are disruptive and efficiently costed, Winter Orb does little to stop them from coming in or beating your face once they've resolved.
Typically we've used Winter Orb vs non-mana rock control and Static Orb for aggro. I also agree that Static Orb is situational and needs a lot of support around it to be good.
Defense Grid is awesome, as is Trinisphere in these cases. But it's not one or the other, it's a whole disruption package. I'm not suggesting you cut Grid for Orb, but play them together - I'd never run Daretti without both. 1 or 2 rocks + things like Rishadan Port or Icy Manipulator can seal the deal too. It can also buy you time to gather mana to resolve a Devastation or something like it.
You could consider running Jaya Ballard in a heavy blue meta. It helps Daretti and destroys PWs and GAAIVs all day long. If you have a Imperial Recruiter it looks even better.
About Ring of Three Wishes, I also think it's very bad in the deck. If you read the whole post, you'll see I'm hardly favorable to any artifact that requires a high activation cost. I'd rather spend my mana playing stuff and lock pieces. Spending 5 mana to tutor and then not being able to play what you tutor the same turn is very bad.
I'll be testing heavily this month, since there are about 5 cards from Magic Origins I think could fit into Daretti and I'll post results here.
I recently cut static orb and mishra's helix from my list, adding icy manipulator and, not sure how I feel about it yet, but spine of ish sah. I also cut a basic and added kher keep, as having free blockers is good.
My main reasoning is that in trying to cut back on "big things" and being able to keep a hand at seven as opposed to the dreaded five.
Yeah, I also cut those 2 but Static Orb is one of the cards I want to put back in. It holds the game so well...
Spine is a must for me. It's a mini-Karn and if you have Daretti online it's gamebreaking. I know it seems bad, but I always loved it (it's also a great Kuldotha target).
I don't know about Kher Keep. Maybe if I cut Inkmoth Nexus? But Nexus flies... I don't know. I don't want to take any other R-producing land off the deck - it already has too many colorless lands. Also, I stated several times that spending mana for effects in this deck is pretty bad IMO. Saving 3 mana to make 1 token is not where I want to be. Specially when you have a lot of token producers that do it for free or for 1 mana. I know it's a land, but that also plays badly with Moon effects.
I actually cut Inkmonth awhile back since poison never mattered and I'd rather have damage.
On the subject of making blockers, has anyone tried Pentavus? This card was amazing back in the day with Welder. Combat tricks for days, recurring blockers, gets around removal, and makes more artifacts for Daretti to sacrifice. It's also not too hard to actually cast for this deck.
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You need at least 2 artifact removals. Vandalblast and Aftershock are both good. I prefer Aftershock for versatility.
I played with Volt Charge a few games. It's good, but I prefer Dead // Gone or Mizzium Mortars or probably any other burn spell before it. I'd say I even prefer Bonfire of the Damned over it. The thing is the few times its proliferate is good are usually not worth the extra mana. Yeah, it's nice to deal 3 damage and up Daretti 1 counter, but is that really worth not being able to burn something 1 or 2 turns earlier? I guess not.
Word of Seizing seems bad, man... none of the scenarios you paint make me want to run it. If you want to run 5 mana cute stuff like that you'd probably be better off with Ugin's Nexus. Or, even better: there's your slot for Karn Liberated right there.
About Trading Post, maybe you're right that it improves the Tasigur matchup a little by chump blocking. But I don't know... 4 mana for an artifact that does absolutely nothing when it lands? And then it has (little) incremental value that really only benefits you when you're already winning? If you're using it just to chump block, go with Tawnos's Coffin which, at least, let's you do fun stuff with Myr Battlesphere and Sundering Titan. I'd probably test Icy Manipulator over it (and it will probably be better).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Sometimes ("a nonzero percent", sure), that 1 difference is relevant.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Later on you can Weld it back if you need a tap effect when the 3 won't be so much of a hindrance.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I agree with you on Ward of Bones, but I think it's usually meant to hold off hordes, since you almost never have creatures on board. Does nothing against reanimator though...
It probably also helps after a Wildfire/Jokulhaups. You can just play no lands and he will be at 1 land forever.
How is everyone finding it?
20 Mountain
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Great Furnace
1 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
1 Sandstone Needle
1 Dwarven Ruins
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Rishadan Port
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Goblin Welder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Batterskull
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Duplicant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Blood Moon
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Mind Stone
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Fractured Powerstone
1 Fire Diamond
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
1 Torpor Orb
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Defense Grid
1 Winter Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crystal Ball
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
1 Smokestack
1 Coercive Portal
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Memory Jar
1 Staff of Nin
1 Mindslaver
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Pyroblast
1 Dead // Gone
1 Chaos Warp
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Slagstorm
1 Sudden Demise
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Ruination
1 Wildfire
1 Burning of Xinye
1 Jokulhaups
1 Destructive Force
1 Shattering Spree
1 Aftershock
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Wild Guess
1 Gamble
1 Scrap Mastery
Changes:
I'm don't have free time enough right now to check if my last list posted here is the last list I had before this one, but the major changes were these:
+4 fetches
-3 Mountain
-1 Mishra's Factory
Factory seemed just to get in the way of my plans. I still kept Inkmoth Nexus in the list, mainly because it flies - but that could go if I ever wanted to put one of the utility lands in (Buried Ruin, Blinkmoth Well, Phyrexia's Core, Arcane Lighthouse or even another Mountain).
For the fetches, see Sensei's Divining Top below (that change also made me able to have only beta Mountains in the deck <3)
-1 Arcane Lighthouse
+1 Rishadan Port
Finally got my hands in a nice NM Japanese Port, and it's a must in the deck. I pondered between Inkmoth or Arcane Lighthouse, but Lighthouse doesn't seem to help against Geist/Narset that much.
-1 Faithless Looting
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
This comes together with the 4 fetches. I decided to take Looting out instead of Crystal Ball and it's been good for now. I'd still like to put Looting back in the deck, but I lack slots.
-1 Ruby Medallion
+1 Fractured Powerstone
I like Ruby in the mid/late game against control, but my artifact count got up. And after I added Gilded Lotus and Thran Dynamo, I didn't feel the need for this to help me play 2 spells per turn. Powerstone is awesome because it enters untapped, helping turn 2 Top, Needle, etc, without getting in the way of ramp.
-1 Static Orb
+1 Dead // Gone
I missed Dead/Gone too much, it had to come back in. Helps a lot against Kaalia, Braids, Animar... Also, Static Orb was, more often than not, disturbing my gameplan more than the opponent's. I know Icy Manipulator helps, but with Winter Orb in the deck I feel I'm covered.
-1 Mishra's Helix
+1 Icy Manipulator
Winter Orb changed the deck in a way that now I really can't spend that much mana to activate anything. This is still in testing, but Helix was feeling a bit slow against most decks. This could become a Volcanic Fallout someday if my meta gets too many Geist/Narset.
-1 Contagion Engine
+1 Destructive Force
This is supposed to be Devastation, but it's in the mail and haven't arrived yet. Destructive Force does a good job, though. I feel that, with Anafenza on the rise, Contagion Engine is on it's bad days. I don't know, but I've since had less and less reasons to fetch this with Kuldotha Forgemaster. I guess Ugin is also responsible for the downfall of Contagion Engine for me right now.
This is the first time I have a list I don't feel like changing that much. Devastation will get here and I'll add it, but that's it. I could see myself taking out Icy Manipulator for Volcanic Fallout or something like that. Or maybe even the recently spoiled Pia and Kiran Naalar (but that will require testing and maybe the addition of Skullclamp again :P) edit: also, I may need an Imperial Recruiter now.........
I've recently played this deck against Skythrix, Geist, Marath, Freyalise and another Daretti. All victories. I love it!
But you obviously put in Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Ancient Tomb, Strip Mine and Mishra's Workshop if you have. I also put in all Sphere effects I can, since all the mana helps that. Clock of Omens is also nice. Uba Mask also shines, but you get all attention from everyone...
Daretti probably could be a less prison version, more big guys. With a few things like Obliterate, etc, to ensure a nice reset. Darksteel Forge is a must.
Karn, Silver Golem + Mycosynth Lattice also seems nice.
Also, have you tested out bazaar of Baghdad? I'm anxious to try it out again because of that new alhamaretts archive. Because "draw four, discard three" sounds like the most value I've ever seen on a land.
Of course, if you just jam it into play as soon as you can, you won't get all the benefits... but that is misplaying, not a problem with the card.
Aggro can be dangerous as most of those decks are running mana dudes, and likely running Orb itself to keep things asymmetrical. As most of the creatures run now are disruptive and efficiently costed, Winter Orb does little to stop them from coming in or beating your face once they've resolved.
Typically we've used Winter Orb vs non-mana rock control and Static Orb for aggro. I also agree that Static Orb is situational and needs a lot of support around it to be good.
You could consider running Jaya Ballard in a heavy blue meta. It helps Daretti and destroys PWs and GAAIVs all day long. If you have a Imperial Recruiter it looks even better.
About Ring of Three Wishes, I also think it's very bad in the deck. If you read the whole post, you'll see I'm hardly favorable to any artifact that requires a high activation cost. I'd rather spend my mana playing stuff and lock pieces. Spending 5 mana to tutor and then not being able to play what you tutor the same turn is very bad.
I'll be testing heavily this month, since there are about 5 cards from Magic Origins I think could fit into Daretti and I'll post results here.
My main reasoning is that in trying to cut back on "big things" and being able to keep a hand at seven as opposed to the dreaded five.
Spine is a must for me. It's a mini-Karn and if you have Daretti online it's gamebreaking. I know it seems bad, but I always loved it (it's also a great Kuldotha target).
I don't know about Kher Keep. Maybe if I cut Inkmoth Nexus? But Nexus flies... I don't know. I don't want to take any other R-producing land off the deck - it already has too many colorless lands. Also, I stated several times that spending mana for effects in this deck is pretty bad IMO. Saving 3 mana to make 1 token is not where I want to be. Specially when you have a lot of token producers that do it for free or for 1 mana. I know it's a land, but that also plays badly with Moon effects.
On the subject of making blockers, has anyone tried Pentavus? This card was amazing back in the day with Welder. Combat tricks for days, recurring blockers, gets around removal, and makes more artifacts for Daretti to sacrifice. It's also not too hard to actually cast for this deck.