With Titan Strength I was thinking that the 1 mana +3 with a scry effect would be worth it more then a pump alone? Although Madcap Skills really seems like the better choice.
Talking about burn to players only... wouldn't Flame Rift be better then Lave Spike? Since ur turn 1 will 99% of the time be Mountain Zurgo Pass?
Also I saw that you're testing Collateral Damage wouldn't Thunderous Wrath have a spot it the deck? I guess you could miss with a looting effect? It still feels really good and you do have a SDT for some instant speed silliness.
Eidolon of the Great Revel seems so good in this deck. Would Pyrostatic Pillar just not be as good?
I know we talked about Rabblemaster and it will soon make the cut but until then I know standard players have been enjoying Stoke the Flames and even Hordeling Outburst together. You even have Goblin Assault right now! Could those cards also be good, or do they not scale well in DC?
Yeah I was thinking about Madcap earlier at the store. I might just test it out.
Rift is likely better than Spike, although three for one mana is a better value than four for two mana.
I'm not a fan of the miracle cards unless they are feasibly castable outside of the miracle cost. In the case of Thunderous Wrath, six mana for five damage is not very efficient at all. Collateral Damage meanwhile is "another bolt" - think I'd be playing Shard Volley next, before considering TW.
Eidolon is fantastic, yes. Eidolon that doesn't get to the red zone, and loses to Spell Pierce? Not so much. It's like the difference between Ankh of Mishra and Zo-zu the Punisher.
I like Hordeling Outburst a lot, but I question what three drop it's better than? Moons, Tangle Wire, Hammer, Swords and more are all at this level, and that is stiff competition. Stoke the Flames is really sweet. So sweet when I inquired about one I was quoted $20 for it. Like wut? No way that is a $20 card. Good yes. But I would feel awful if I spent that much on it - like I was being taken advantage of.
I remember talking to you about Squee and you just saying I was silly... You're probably right that even though its value with looting effects its still really bad. What about Pyrewild Shaman for the same kind of effect? Then you have 2 Phoenixes and Pyrewild to rebuy after looting...
I think that Thunderous Wrath really could be a card in the deck. It only misses in the off chance that you loot into it.. but with that being said its a easy card to choose to loot out of hand.
In modern I had a friend that had it as a 1 of in his deck and the only time it was bad is when it was in his opening 7. Now in DC its easy to see exiling it in the partial mulligan just to get it back into the deck so ts not a dead card.
Could it be better to have more of a top end with your cards? I know we both think dragons at 5 seem good.. What about something like Ashcloud Phoenix? It flies, auto 2 for 1's and at 6 mana can burn for the last few points? Maybe its better then Viashino Sandstalker?
And if you're really feeling crazy what about Arc-Slogger? One of my favorite cards I've got to play in standard lol. I could see you shocking for like 12-14 points as long as you have no fear at all!
I remember talking to you about Squee and you just saying I was silly... You're probably right that even though its value with looting effects its still really bad. What about Pyrewild Shaman for the same kind of effect? Then you have 2 Phoenixes and Pyrewild to rebuy after looting...
I think that Thunderous Wrath really could be a card in the deck. It only misses in the off chance that you loot into it.. but with that being said its a easy card to choose to loot out of hand.
In modern I had a friend that had it as a 1 of in his deck and the only time it was bad is when it was in his opening 7. Now in DC its easy to see exiling it in the partial mulligan just to get it back into the deck so ts not a dead card.
Could it be better to have more of a top end with your cards? I know we both think dragons at 5 seem good.. What about something like Ashcloud Phoenix? It flies, auto 2 for 1's and at 6 mana can burn for the last few points? Maybe its better then Viashino Sandstalker?
And if you're really feeling crazy what about Arc-Slogger? One of my favorite cards I've got to play in standard lol. I could see you shocking for like 12-14 points as long as you have no fear at all!
I had Pyrewild in the deck at one point. It was OK. Think this was when I played Archetype of Aggression still. Though I can rebuy him for three, I'm still weary of a number of these effects making me easy prey to get 2-for-1'd. I'd play it though before Titan's Strength.
I'm not married to the idea of Viashino Sandstalker, but Ashcloud Phoenix at six (at four it is underwhelming to every other four drop currently used) is unexciting to me. And at six I feel like Inferno Titan should be played first. Although I like Flame-Wreathed Phoenix a lot...that's either four for a 5/5 flyer (very good) or four for a 3/3 flying, haste, return to hand if killed.
I do love me some Arc-Slogger. Shoulda picked that guy up last night lol. And I don't mind giving Thunderous Wrath a chance. I have my doubts, but it is worth testing sure.
Updates! Note: These are meta changes as @Smiley and I discussed prior. The point of these cuts is to add a bit more top end for late game inevitability. To that end, I've added two more lands (a basic and a basic fetcher). So yes, Tower of the Magistrate...you are safe. For now.
I can't disclose my "secret tech" right now. :/ But rest assured, it's (I feel) really ingenious. =D (though I can't play this week because of work...so maybe [hopefully] next week). I'll wait to update the main list on pg 1 until I get adequate testing in with this stack - it's ten changes, and that is a pretty substantial list.
Notable additions that didn't make the cut this time around - Thunderous Wrath, Arc-Slogger, Stoke the Flames. Rabblemaster and Price of Progress not mentioned because these are cards that should be in the deck - whenever I can get my hands on them (trying to avoid buying online if at all possible).
Geez I'm still upset I can't play FNM this week. Stupid job and needing to make money. :/ >_>
Haha good luck with that sir! Waitin for updates on your playtesting. I picked up a foil price of progress for around $6 along with a foil bellstriker so I'm excited for my own playtesting. =))
Oh and if you want to go a more creatureless route, what do you think of running those sweepers with repercussion? It's basically relevant against any deck that runs a creature. You can even force them into having a creature with hunted dragon or forbidden orchard but that's a bit of a reach already =))
Well yeah that second part about repurcussion is kinda far out. But my question about the sweepers still stand. I haven't played with the deck yet so I don't really know.. you've never felt the need to wipe the board decisively?
Well yeah that second part about repurcussion is kinda far out. But my question about the sweepers still stand. I haven't played with the deck yet so I don't really know.. you've never felt the need to wipe the board decisively?
Yep, agreed on volcanic fallout.. I couldn't even resist using it in the kaalia deck =) uncounterable geist killer is too hard to pass up.
Going the opposite direction of curve toppers like the dragons you mentioned, does vexing devil have any merits in the deck?? how about rakdos cackler?
Yep, agreed on volcanic fallout.. I couldn't even resist using it in the kaalia deck =) uncounterable geist killer is too hard to pass up.
Going the opposite direction of curve toppers like the dragons you mentioned, does vexing devil have any merits in the deck?? how about rakdos cackler?
(Maybe I should add Fallout to Kaalia too...idk, I don't like RR there. I could probably cast it, but...no reason to stretch it).
In 99% of cases, Bellstriker is our premiere one drop of choice so any other one drop needs to be really good to merit being played over the big guy (like Goblin Guide, or in heavy control metas, Black Vise). Vexing Devil is not good (I realize this is a very contested opinion from the Legacy Burn primer), I do not like giving my opponent a choice. The difference is, in Legacy he is worth more because 20-life and you can play four. Here with 30-life and one-ofs, his strength is mitigated significantly. Ironically, I say I don't like giving my opponent a choice, but I will try to justify why I can play Browbeat all day long. #DeckbuilderVices
Rakdos Cackler is not legal for our deck due to colour identity.
Any interest in me turning this thread into a Primer? I feel I'm at least as qualified on this topic as I am on Kaalia, so maybe I could contribute yet another community project? Is there mass interest in this archetype, or just passing curiosity?
You should have several Primers 3drinks Go go go !
Lol. Man. I'm not sure I could maintain several primers adequately. Though I know I could this one, and Kaalia seems to have slowed with what R&D gives us (or it's gotten to the point of not being excited for new cards as the power level is exceedingly high).
Didn't you essentially slam my decklist that did this? Nice to see you giving him a try, hope it works for ya!
edit; to add to that concept, what makes zurgo get past siggarda is anti-block shenangians. Blood Moon and Volcanic Strength is one example of many that red has.
there's a difference in playing one aura, and a deck full of them. Very few are worth the potential card disadvantage (they need to be Rancor level). Madcap isn't quite at that point - but its a reasonable hypothesis at this juncture.
Relying on Moon vs 2c Green is unstable at best - any properly built strategy will fetch appropriately so as to not get caught by the anticipated nonbasic hate.
Furthermore, this is not voltron. It is AiR. I aim to kill/burn you out as quickly as possible, and a one drop 2/2 is the most efficient way to start that clock. On average I am good for ~10-12 cmdr damage with the rest of the deck filling in the rest.
It is. Just a shame I haven't located one. I don't put monetary constraints on my decks so it isn't a cash factour (Rabblemaster is, but only because I don't feel it's worth $15 right now). But PoP I've been checking for at the LGS for the past three months.
Aw man, I came back to check this list and find that Zo-Zu, the Punisher has been replaced by boring Zurgo. I felt the previous list had a lot flavor going for it, ie "Smash your lands", that made it stand out as unique. Are competitive pressures great enough to play this as a burn deck then?
Aw man, I came back to check this list and find that Zo-Zu, the Punisher has been replaced by boring Zurgo. I felt the previous list had a lot flavor going for it, ie "Smash your lands", that made it stand out as unique. Are competitive pressures great enough to play this as a burn deck then?
That's how this deck has always been played. Zo-zu was just the most efficient commander for the job. Bellstriker just blows him away though in terms of consistent damage output. Zo-zu may be explosive, but I'll take a consistent 6 on t3 before a maybe 4 by t4 any day of the week.
I made a couple of other edits, some of which being meta-oriented before the next FNM I can go to (which hopefully is next week...sigh, stupid work). A few notes;
B. Ring over Tower - I wanted to make this cut for awhile because Ring provides coloured mana and some burn to close a game/kill prot. R critters. Not that I've seen them, but the moment I see someone rock Kor Firewalkers because of me...man, that's how I'd know I'm a success - I'd have made people meta to me specifically.
Stoke over Ruinat. - I feel it's a blow out against the non-top decks who haven't adapted, but the top decks - i.e. Sigarda, Clique, Teferi - are all immune to it. So more burn is preferrable for these matches, while still being live versus the others.
T. Wrath over Gamb. - Same philosophy, rather than lose a card to find something (and hope to not discard it), I can "cut out the middle man" and add more burn redundancy. T. Wrath seems especially fine as the only time I don't want to see it is my opener, or t1 (and my opener I can just mull it away) so this will commonly be a one mana Shrap. Blast that doesn't need an artifact.
I'm waiting to add Arc-Slogger. I don't want to overload the top end.
You still don't get to learn my "secret tech" - not until I can play again.
Aw man, I came back to check this list and find that Zo-Zu, the Punisher has been replaced by boring Zurgo. I felt the previous list had a lot flavor going for it, ie "Smash your lands", that made it stand out as unique. Are competitive pressures great enough to play this as a burn deck then?
For what it's worth, the deck still aims to blow up some lands.
Yeah I was thinking about Madcap earlier at the store. I might just test it out.
Rift is likely better than Spike, although three for one mana is a better value than four for two mana.
I'm not a fan of the miracle cards unless they are feasibly castable outside of the miracle cost. In the case of Thunderous Wrath, six mana for five damage is not very efficient at all. Collateral Damage meanwhile is "another bolt" - think I'd be playing Shard Volley next, before considering TW.
Eidolon is fantastic, yes. Eidolon that doesn't get to the red zone, and loses to Spell Pierce? Not so much. It's like the difference between Ankh of Mishra and Zo-zu the Punisher.
I like Hordeling Outburst a lot, but I question what three drop it's better than? Moons, Tangle Wire, Hammer, Swords and more are all at this level, and that is stiff competition. Stoke the Flames is really sweet. So sweet when I inquired about one I was quoted $20 for it. Like wut? No way that is a $20 card. Good yes. But I would feel awful if I spent that much on it - like I was being taken advantage of.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I think that Thunderous Wrath really could be a card in the deck. It only misses in the off chance that you loot into it.. but with that being said its a easy card to choose to loot out of hand.
In modern I had a friend that had it as a 1 of in his deck and the only time it was bad is when it was in his opening 7. Now in DC its easy to see exiling it in the partial mulligan just to get it back into the deck so ts not a dead card.
Could it be better to have more of a top end with your cards? I know we both think dragons at 5 seem good.. What about something like Ashcloud Phoenix? It flies, auto 2 for 1's and at 6 mana can burn for the last few points? Maybe its better then Viashino Sandstalker?
And if you're really feeling crazy what about Arc-Slogger? One of my favorite cards I've got to play in standard lol. I could see you shocking for like 12-14 points as long as you have no fear at all!
I had Pyrewild in the deck at one point. It was OK. Think this was when I played Archetype of Aggression still. Though I can rebuy him for three, I'm still weary of a number of these effects making me easy prey to get 2-for-1'd. I'd play it though before Titan's Strength.
I'm not married to the idea of Viashino Sandstalker, but Ashcloud Phoenix at six (at four it is underwhelming to every other four drop currently used) is unexciting to me. And at six I feel like Inferno Titan should be played first. Although I like Flame-Wreathed Phoenix a lot...that's either four for a 5/5 flyer (very good) or four for a 3/3 flying, haste, return to hand if killed.
I do love me some Arc-Slogger. Shoulda picked that guy up last night lol. And I don't mind giving Thunderous Wrath a chance. I have my doubts, but it is worth testing sure.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Obsidian Fireheart
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Madcap Skills
1 Mask of Memory
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Mountain
1 Secret Tech
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Dangerous Wager
1 Wild Guess
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Orcish Settlers
1 Viashino Sandstalker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Black Vise
I can't disclose my "secret tech" right now. :/ But rest assured, it's (I feel) really ingenious. =D (though I can't play this week because of work...so maybe [hopefully] next week). I'll wait to update the main list on pg 1 until I get adequate testing in with this stack - it's ten changes, and that is a pretty substantial list.
Notable additions that didn't make the cut this time around - Thunderous Wrath, Arc-Slogger, Stoke the Flames. Rabblemaster and Price of Progress not mentioned because these are cards that should be in the deck - whenever I can get my hands on them (trying to avoid buying online if at all possible).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Haha good luck with that sir! Waitin for updates on your playtesting. I picked up a foil price of progress for around $6 along with a foil bellstriker so I'm excited for my own playtesting. =))
Oh and if you want to go a more creatureless route, what do you think of running those sweepers with repercussion? It's basically relevant against any deck that runs a creature. You can even force them into having a creature with hunted dragon or forbidden orchard but that's a bit of a reach already =))
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
No I haven't. But I do play Volcanic Fallout because elves exist, but it's also good vs Geist of Saint Traft and it goes to the dome.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Going the opposite direction of curve toppers like the dragons you mentioned, does vexing devil have any merits in the deck?? how about rakdos cackler?
In 99% of cases, Bellstriker is our premiere one drop of choice so any other one drop needs to be really good to merit being played over the big guy (like Goblin Guide, or in heavy control metas, Black Vise). Vexing Devil is not good (I realize this is a very contested opinion from the Legacy Burn primer), I do not like giving my opponent a choice. The difference is, in Legacy he is worth more because 20-life and you can play four. Here with 30-life and one-ofs, his strength is mitigated significantly. Ironically, I say I don't like giving my opponent a choice, but I will try to justify why I can play Browbeat all day long. #DeckbuilderVices
Rakdos Cackler is not legal for our deck due to colour identity.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Lol. Man. I'm not sure I could maintain several primers adequately. Though I know I could this one, and Kaalia seems to have slowed with what R&D gives us (or it's gotten to the point of not being excited for new cards as the power level is exceedingly high).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
there's a difference in playing one aura, and a deck full of them. Very few are worth the potential card disadvantage (they need to be Rancor level). Madcap isn't quite at that point - but its a reasonable hypothesis at this juncture.
Relying on Moon vs 2c Green is unstable at best - any properly built strategy will fetch appropriately so as to not get caught by the anticipated nonbasic hate.
Furthermore, this is not voltron. It is AiR. I aim to kill/burn you out as quickly as possible, and a one drop 2/2 is the most efficient way to start that clock. On average I am good for ~10-12 cmdr damage with the rest of the deck filling in the rest.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
It's like a Grafted Wargear, only way worse because it's not free for everyone to equip.
There's way too many other buffs that will make the cut before something like this. Bonesplitter comes to mind, at the top of the list.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
=) Shame I gotta work this Friday night too. Gonna be a bit longer on it.
It is. Just a shame I haven't located one. I don't put monetary constraints on my decks so it isn't a cash factour (Rabblemaster is, but only because I don't feel it's worth $15 right now). But PoP I've been checking for at the LGS for the past three months.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
EDH - Obzedat, Ghost Council of VALUETOWN BW
Modern - Rack Disruption BR
My Trading Post
That's how this deck has always been played. Zo-zu was just the most efficient commander for the job. Bellstriker just blows him away though in terms of consistent damage output. Zo-zu may be explosive, but I'll take a consistent 6 on t3 before a maybe 4 by t4 any day of the week.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Obsidian Fireheart
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
1 Madcap Skills
1 Mask of Memory
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Thunderous Wrath
1 Stoke the Flames
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Secret Tech
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Dangerous Wager
1 Wild Guess
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Orcish Settlers
1 Viashino Sandstalker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Black Vise
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Ruination
1 Gamble
I made a couple of other edits, some of which being meta-oriented before the next FNM I can go to (which hopefully is next week...sigh, stupid work). A few notes;
B. Ring over Tower - I wanted to make this cut for awhile because Ring provides coloured mana and some burn to close a game/kill prot. R critters. Not that I've seen them, but the moment I see someone rock Kor Firewalkers because of me...man, that's how I'd know I'm a success - I'd have made people meta to me specifically.
Stoke over Ruinat. - I feel it's a blow out against the non-top decks who haven't adapted, but the top decks - i.e. Sigarda, Clique, Teferi - are all immune to it. So more burn is preferrable for these matches, while still being live versus the others.
T. Wrath over Gamb. - Same philosophy, rather than lose a card to find something (and hope to not discard it), I can "cut out the middle man" and add more burn redundancy. T. Wrath seems especially fine as the only time I don't want to see it is my opener, or t1 (and my opener I can just mull it away) so this will commonly be a one mana Shrap. Blast that doesn't need an artifact.
I'm waiting to add Arc-Slogger. I don't want to overload the top end.
You still don't get to learn my "secret tech" - not until I can play again.
For what it's worth, the deck still aims to blow up some lands.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.