cabal is not for discard, its to sac the clone shell to get the conscript in play lol. but in that case the cabal therapy might as well just be a sac outlet like viscera seer/sadistic hypnotist/triskelion/redcap. i'm currently brainstorming a DD stack for your deck with body snatcher instead, because i don't like clone shell...
@asporia: perhaps you meant something else instead of gob chieftain, because it doesnt protect kiki since kiki already has haste.
if i were to tighten this deck, i'd trim the helm package (as much as you like it from your kagemaro days...) which cuts 5 dedicated combo cards, cut animate dead/dance/shred memory, and leave just dimir machinations because it can get moon, necromancy, fire covenant, contamination
Chieften is there to give grenzo the +1 so i can just pitch zealous to him. He replaces clone shell nicely. The protection side was saying you would still be able to use cabal before droping conscript. I was saying that with chief cabal is unnecessary and I will save the deck slot.
No chance of cutting my other animates, they are so strong with both ooze and dragon.
Helm/leyline I am probably going to stick with, because Leyline is very powerful on its own. And without that combo I am all grave/creature reliant which can be fragile and backfire big if something like a leyline is played against me.
(btw nice to see you spas, have not heard from you in quite awhile.)
@spastika, I don't think that Aspasia was saying that Goblin Chieftain would protect Kiki, merely that he was an easy way to allow Grenzo to get Conscripts into play (does not require a sac outlet).
This stack wins the same turn you cast Doomsday and costs a total of 5 mana, it fails to instant speed removal on Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I think protecting Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is not critical since they can just kill Grenzo in response to Doomsday anyways, meaning we are already vulnerable before Doomsday resolves.
@nargl: it doesnt protect kiki because workhorse will die as a SBA to get kiki in after mesmeric, so kiki won't be able to copy workhorse. plus a good player i think would kill grenzo in response to his first activation just after a DD, so if you're gonna DD you have to be desperate or know they dont have removal. mesmeric would be irrelevant at this stage.
OMG nargl puting in Fiend is really cool, that may very well warrant workhorse instead of priest. After all there are quite a few cards that can not target black/artifact creatures. Making the change now.
Also I will need to include Manic Vandal that can sometimes replace fiend in case of things like execution capsule.
On the flipside of that argument, most top decks wont run narrow removal, and workhorse being an artifact opens him up to more ways to be removed. Its a tough choice whether to go priest or workhorse, I am not going to do both.
Edit: After a quick gatherer search, there are tons of cards that cant destroy non artifact, or non black, but next to none that cant get both, with that info I will stick to priest and save the extra slot as there is lots of artifact destruction and priest is better in deck anyways.
Spas also brought to my attention that horse dies before kiki can copy it if I use it to get out fiend as well, so priest all the way.
just had a sweet game where my opponent had beast within in hand (i brain maggot'ed it and later died). my hand was doomsday and buried alive and i had 5 lands. the guy knows the doomsday kiki combo so he holds the removal. he lets my doomsday resolve without killing grenzo so i fetch siege-gang, gorger, animate and kiki+conscript (animate on top, siege on bottom) and pass turn with two mana open. he beasts his land EOT so he can equip feast and jitte and kill me. next turn he attacks with the beast token so i flash in siege to chump and survive a turn. i untap, draw the animate dead, cast buried alive for gorger then animate gorger and infi-siege grenzo i went with this particular stack in case he tried to beast grenzo in resp to doomsday or in resp to the grenzo activation for the priest-kiki-chieftain-conscript chain if i went with that stack. it was a turn slower but it was ultimately the best play i think.
Devil's Play for insurance in the Grenzo stack perhaps?
Private Mod Note
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French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
1) necrotic ooze can win with summoning sickness when triskelion/devourer is in graveyard. you need to wait a turn with pili pala/palladium myr. same thing with kiki+mogg fanatic. unless you have anger...
2) it does not rely on a mana sink for your infinite mana. if there is a pithing needle naming grenzo, you might not be able to do anything with your infinite mana. better to ooze with triskelion/devourer and kill them straightaway with damage. i know triskelion/devourer doesn't work with doomsday, but with doomsday you normally get the kiki+priest of gix+conscript combo or worldgorger+animate+siege-gang combo. ooze combo is for buried alive usually.
Auntie is better then chieftain, made the change. Devils play is better then spikeshot elder. I had preferred having an instant speed creature that flips, but I ran into the issue of having a dragon combo, but my only red was a pain land so I couldn't actually kill with red mana related things, as I would die much sooner then my opponent.
Nice take on Grenzo Doomsday build, my build was creature based and when i found your build it was much more consistent than relying on creature chances.
My build for now does not include,
Sadistic Hypnotist
Manic Vandal
Outrage Shaman
Phyrexian Revoker
Braids, Cabal Minion
Mindclaw Shaman
Disciple of Phenax
Master of Cruelties
Dauthi mindripper
Shimian Specter
Herald of Leshrac
I included more hand disruption and artifact hate, and some mana rock acceleration, my playfield consist of wanderers, blue control and marath, doran, jenara for agro. So, instead of creatures that will not draw much attention I play 2cc dwarven blastminers/artifact hate creatures to force opponents to deal with them. For agro match up i just ramp to mass creature kill and doomsday as soon as they recast their commander, for blue control i play, persecute, parallax nexus for hand disruption on turn 4 for me to combo out on turn 5.
I also included splinter twin just in case, i can win through straight method. Also pitched in Conjurer's Bauble ust in case doran/ hand disruption match up discarded my win con, it also draws card for 1 in some match up.
I can see alot of potential here and this might break the current metta running today of Agro Green.
Ya dwarven is definitely an under utilized creature in a lot of decks these days. Any deck that is waiting around to set up its combo and has free mana should be trying to deny as hard as possible. I think that fits in well in this deck. Maybe more stuff like Sinkhole or Dwarven like mentioned previously?
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French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
Again I moved the deck away from land disruption as the decks that can actually stand up against me only need two or three land to function anyways. I kept only the top notch ones like Braids, and Leshrac, moon, but to include the others I would be needing to cut into either combos or hand disruption, and taking care of peoples hands is much more important then lands.
just thought up a variant for the kiki/zealous doomsday stack.
1. unmask or whatever
2. dread return (sac priest + priest token + grenzo, reanimate zealous)
3. zealous conscripts (goes to grave)
4. kiki-jiki
5. priest of gix/urabrask
This frees up a slot so you don't need mad auntie anymore. If you run both, it's in case mad auntie is in hand/exile after you doomsday. Dread return is also a good rip from grenzo.
skullclamp is already a busted card and it seems that the deck runs a decent amount of sac outlets and X/1 creatures.
nightmare is a powerful card and the deck has lots of enters the battlefield triggers, plus the reanimation subtheme. Although I am not sure about this one cause it definitely costs a lot of mana.
simulacrum is a good value card and the deck makes good use of any extra mana. Also going from 4 to 6 manas is meaningful with grenzo in play.
slavering nulls is like a bad specter but cheaper, don't know if it is worth playing.
adnate seems quite good, at worst it refunds itself in mana to reuse grenzo's ability, at best it makes a good use of nekrataal, exarch and such.
fulminator mage to add to the denial disruption.
I prefer auntie, the suggested stack fails vs leyline, and is even more vulnerable to creature removal. With auntie grenzo can ignore gravehate. Auntie is a better rip, as I will rarely have 3 creatures to sac anyways, and dragon requires an enchant reanimate. Its a good stack for sure, but I dont think dread is worth the slot. Im already trying to find a spot for chieftain as a back up auntie, space is tight, and auntie is cheap enough to just hardcast anyways.
Skullclamp is a busted card, however I run practically no 1 toughness creatures, excluding a couple that need to be on the field for their effect to stick.
Recuring is a very powerful card, I originally ran it, but it was to pricy to really do the deck much good, pretty much anytime I could use it, I found my self preferring to just sink the mana into grenzo.
The deck functions fine at 3 land and really does not need acceleration. Slavering is just awful :P. I shifted it away from land destruction on purpose, as the only decks I struggle against are not phased my it.
Thank you for your suggestions, I appreciate the input.
Grenzo does not care what zone the creature ends up in, he will grab it form where ever(not 100% sure, but I am pretty confident). Its just like how It that Betrays can steal commanders out of the command zone despite it being a replacement effect.
Well he for still avoids scavenging ooze/relics, so my reasoning is still good even if it is the case that he wont work under leyline. If I can prove my ruling is right helm/leyline will likely be cut, if I find out I am wrong they will have to stay. Wheel and Reanimator decks probably scare me enough to keep them anyways.
Edit: Leyline/rip will not stop him as he does not care about the zone, however wheel will because the card is no longer in a public state for his effect to read. Grafdiggers can stop him as well. (although on a funny note, if they have both grafdiggers and leyline, grenzo will work cus it will enter from exile :P)
I suppose you make a pretty convincing argument that the mad auntie stack is better because it doesn't fold to RiP/leyline like dread return does, but there are some advantages you overlooked. Besides the fact the dread return stack is just as vulnerable to creature removal, dread return is also a good entomb target for when you have the ooze combo in graveyard. It's probably not better than auntie in your deck considering you run so few creatures, but I think it's better than chieftain as a second auntie, because of the extra utility outside of doomsday. Also, this scenario will probably never come up, but if you have conscripts stranded in hand and you have to doomsday that turn on 5 mana, dread return gives you the following stack:
1. Dance of the dead (in case they interrupt combo)
2. Dread return conscripts (sac disciple + priest + token)
3. Disciple of phenax/sadistic hypnotist (discard conscripts)
4. Kiki-jiki
5. Priest of gix/urabrask
(Body snatcher can go in 2. and murderous redcap/sadistic hypnotist in 3. if you don't run dread return.)
Dread gets even better when you run griselbrand like I do and more creatures (37, 33 power 2 or less). It doesn't work with gorger, but it works with necrotic ooze.
Also below is another stack that doesn't need mad auntie or chieftain, and I believe the cards are also useful by themselves in Grenzo. Problem is that it dies to relic/scavenging ooze. Outside of the stack, I think Workhorse is better than Priest of Urabrask but worse than Priest of Gix so I run it as the second priest. Running one priest and workhorse gives you more options than running both priests too.
1. Murderous redcap/viscera(kill snatcher in response to his etb trigger and reanimate zealous)
2. Body snatcher (activate grenzo in response to snatcher's etb trigger)
3. Zealous conscripts
4. Kiki-jiki
5. Workhorse
Grenzo does not care what zone the creature ends up in, he will grab it form where ever(not 100% sure, but I am pretty confident). Its just like how It that Betrays can steal commanders out of the command zone despite it being a replacement effect.
Well he for still avoids scavenging ooze/relics, so my reasoning is still good even if it is the case that he wont work under leyline. If I can prove my ruling is right helm/leyline will likely be cut, if I find out I am wrong they will have to stay. Wheel and Reanimator decks probably scare me enough to keep them anyways.
Edit: Leyline/rip will not stop him as he does not care about the zone, however wheel will because the card is no longer in a public state for his effect to read. Grafdiggers can stop him as well. (although on a funny note, if they have both grafdiggers and leyline, grenzo will work cus it will enter from exile :P)
Rest in peace and leyline will stop him. And It that betrays cannot steal commanders from the command zone. Straight from gatherer:
If the sacrificed permanent that caused the second ability to trigger somehow leaves the graveyard before the ability resolves (possibly because it was returned to the battlefield by the ability of another It That Betrays), the ability simply won't do anything when it resolves.
When Grenzo's ability resolves, if the creature is for some reason not in the graveyard, it fizzles. Since both replacement effects happen instead of the card being put into the graveyard to begin with it will simply see that no creature was ever there.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
It That Betrays ability triggers on the action of "sacrificing". Any instruction to "sacrifice" the object will cause that ability to trigger, even though the object may go to a different zone than the graveyard. In which case, the following rule applies:
603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called “zone-change triggers.” Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent’s hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.
The triggered ability can find the card in the zone it was put into when it was sacrificed, even if it is not the player's graveyard.
This ruling should apply to grenzo as well. It that betrays gatherer ruling was not going against this one, it was saying if the creature went to a library/someone else got control of it first.
Also the CompRule book says ITB doesn't care where it actually ends up from the sacrifice provided no zone is specified in the trigger therefore if it goes to a hidden zone, it's untouchable, but if it goes to a public zone, it's fair game.
The [O] ruling was just given by Natedogg (the [O] Rep of WotC in the forum) and was also given by Dan K. on the MtG Rules List as well.
http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2614416 Natedogg himself confirming it. It is no longer an arugmenet about wether or not it that betrays can steal from from exile/command zone, but only an argument saying grenzo could be different, however I am fairly confident he is the same.
I like how after all those rebuttals to my suggestions, you wound up making most of the changes I suggested You got rid of all the cards that were bothering me, and added a bunch more creatures, exactly like I proposed. It's only a matter of time before Leyline/Helm goes now too. Just saying...
I don't quite believe your near perfect record. I've only seen you play 2 matches with this deck on Cockatrice, one against Mimeoplasm and one again Yisan, and you lost both of them. The loss to the Mimeoplasm was the night before you posted saying you've only lost to Doran and Maelstrom Wanderer. You've made tons of big changes since posting your list, indicated clearly that the starting point wasn't especially tuned. There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't believe such a list was winning every match against good players and top decks, even with lots of luck. We may get to such a list, but we're not quite there yet.
I still think Doomsday was quite suspect in the previous list (actually, in 2 of the games I saw you lose, you lost to a single piece of creature or enchantment removal after casting Doomsday). However, the innovation for the 5 mana same turn kill with Doomsday increases the card's strength incredibly. I'd still not play Doomsday unless I could win that turn with it, but now that's definitely worth doing.
I'm not sure what the best stack is--I think I like Workhorse over Priest of Gix/Priest of Urabrask, since you'd never want to cast any of them but Workhorse is a much better random flip off of Grenzo. You said Priest of Gix is much better than Workhorse outside of the combo...I don't think that's true at all. Playing Workhorse and Priest of Gix together seems okay though. I'm not a huge fan of Mad Auntie but I guess it's ok. I like spastika's Dread Return or Body Snatcher stacks better, at least as long as you're playing Necrotic Ooze. Devil's Play and Spikeshot Elder both seem fine; I'm not really sure which is better.
In all your rationale for various combos, I think you're way too scared of Leyline of the Void/Rest in Peace. They saw some play when Zur was around, but now they never do. I've played easily over 200 games with Varolz (a deck which pretty much can't win with one of those cards in play), and have had to deal with Leyline or RIP literally zero times. They're not good against most decks, and they don't see play. You have frequently justified choices on the basis of "but X fails against Leyline," and that's irrelevant. It should influence any choices you make with this deck.
I don't like most creatures with activated abilities that take mana to use in this deck, since you already have a good mana sink in your general and want to put your mana there. The exception might be Moggcatcher, since fetching Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Siege-Gang Commander straight into play seems very powerful. It can also get removal in the form of Outrage Shaman, Murderous Redcap, or Stingscourger, and potentially land destruction (Goblin Settler) or artifact destruction (if you replace Manic Vandal with Tuktuk Scrapper, which also won't randomly kill your own artifacts sometimes when flipped off Grenzo). Just a thought.
I don't agree that the deck functions fine on 3 land. While you can sometimes win there with one of your combos, this deck comes with a built-in mana sink, and scales very well with increased land drops. I watched spastika win a game the other night where he basically did nothing but play lands and activate Grenzo, and he won that game. I also saw you get stuck on 3 lands in 3 separate games, each time complaining about how much you needed to draw more land. I'm not making this up. I think I like Solemn Simulacrum, Soldevi Adnate, and Palladium Myr in this deck, as extra accel that works with Grenzo, and I'd think about fitting in a couple more land too.
Other comments going down your list... Outrage Shaman is ok but I think Murderous Redcap/Nekrataal is probably better. 5 mana is just gross if you have to cast it, and it's not necessarily going to kill stuff any better than the other options, which are more playable and have more utility.
I'd consider Tuktuk Scrapper over Manic Vandal, despite the worse cost, not just for potential goblin synergies but because it's a "may." Opponents don't always have artifacts, and being forced to destroy one of your own off Grenzo sounds really bad.
Is Braids, Cabal Minion really worth it? I think it's very reasonable to leave out the land destruction suite for the reasons you explain. This isn't a deck that attacks an opponent's onboard resources, nor is it particularly filled with things you want to sacrifice. Braids doesn't really complement your plan, and I'm not sure she's good enough on her own to pull her weight. She seems much better if you do play the land destruction.
I don't really get what Master of Cruelties is doing for you. It's a cool card but it doesn't seem very good against anything. You're unlikely to get him through against most decks, and even if you somehow do you won't necessarily be able to finish the job.
I like Workhorse over Priest of Urabrask, as I said. I'd much rather flip a 4/4 that makes 4 mana when I want it than a 2/1 that makes 3 mana which may go to waste. Priest is easier to cast, but a free 2/1 isn't doing much of anything in this deck.
I think you play too many tutors. Cruel Tutor and Diabolic Tutor are particularly awful. Shred Memory doesn't seem to do too much for you. Gamble is quite a gamble, since you're usually going to be holding something you really don't want to discard. Even Dimir Machinations and Beseech the Queen are suspect, since if you tutor up something like Buried Alive or Doomsday, you generally have to pass the turn, and it guarantees that your opponent will play around it if they can. Most decks can. Even if they're not holding an answer, if they behave as if they do you're going to get screwed a certain amount of the time unless you always have discard as well. Despite all the combos I don't think this deck actually needs nearly so many tutors. They tend to be bad in multiples too, and you've got to draw multiples a lot.
Defense Grid is a great addition for this deck. Good job.
You have enough discard and creatures now that Cabal Therapy might be worth playing, even if you're not using it in a Doomsday combo.
I still think that Oblivion Stone has no place in this deck. You have enough sweepers already. I like Dystopia in general, but I don't think it's particularly good here either, since you're really not playing a slow control deck. Against some decks the card does nothing, against others they have so many little elves or tokens that they don't really care. I think you could definitely be playing something higher impact, like Liliana of the Veil, which accomplishes a similar role but with more versatility, precision, and synergy with your plan.
There might be something to be said for cutting back on the worse nonbasic lands (especially since you play Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon), and trying to play more swamps, Cabal Coffers, and Ruination. Your red requirements aren't high, Coffers could be very powerful with Grenzo, and Ruination is just a game-winning card against most decks right now. Even though the Moons do something similar, with so many tutors, it seems worth a try.
Overall the list is looking much stronger than the one you first posted though. Getting better and better. I look forward to seeing it continue to evolve--I think you definitely could have a top tier deck on your hands here.
@Khymera: I'm gonna try answer some of your assertions just because I can
I disagree about Tuktuk scrapper. Sure it's probably better if you run moggcatcher, but outside of that the 1 mana difference would mean a grenzo flip in this deck. Much better to cast, and manic's lack of "may" is mostly irrelevant. The mandatory trigger from manic is unlikely to hurt grenzo I think, since the only artifact that you care about is chrome mox (solemn simulacrum, workhorse and triskelion don't mind dying, neither does phyrexian devourer).
Also Braids can be a game-winning card by herself, much more powerful than a goblin settlers/avalanche riders. I wouldn't classify her as an LD card, but more as a game-winning bomb that can take over if unanswered. She gets better the more creatures you run in grenzo obviously.
What Deaths said about leyline hurting some various combo stacks, including my dread return/body snatcher stacks, applies with scavenging ooze/relic as well, so I guess he has a point. Mad auntie is generally safer in the doomsday stack, but dread return and snatcher are good cards by themselves I find (especially with griselbrand as an additional target) and they're alternatives if auntie is exiled/in hand.
Coffers is tough. I think this deck needs to only run like less than 10 non-Swamps to take advantage of Coffers. But on that note I can see this deck now just being almost monoblack in manabse (with 9 fetches and 2 duals) because the only red cards you cast are moon, gamble and Grenzo. Maybe 2-3 basic Mountains, but other than that no red sources.
EDIT: HOLY CRAP MOGGCATCHER IS a 2/2. i thought it was a 3/3 the entire time omgadddd
Khymera you have been helpful offering constructive critisicm but that post got a little personal. Your calling me out on a statement that was true at the time, I had lost somewhere around 4:20 games, so what I didn't list/remember those couple explicitly. Yea I have lost more recently due to facing top notch players, and alot of my previous wins were against meh opponents, but I have also had a lot of luck and done well against strong decks, and still have a high win rate. You also only watched a tiny number of my games, and did not usually stick around for the whole thing. So I really don't appreciate you calling me a liar.
As for me taking "most of your suggestions" I took a couple and was grateful, but the majority I had already done, or disagreed with and stuck to, or cut for unrelated reasons and were not replaced by your suggestions, such as the leyline stack and all its supporters being replaced by the priest version.
I want more tutors, not less. Still combo oriented, not good stuff oriented, cutting them would ruin its consistent combo rate and put me in a I hope grenzo can win the game on his own which he typically cant. Multiples is a good thing because other then doomsday they are all two card combos anyways, and tutor is a tutor anyways I can get a negator, or removal. Tempo is, grenzo turn two, tutor turn 3, win turn 4, or tutor again win turn 5. Tutors win games.
Like priests over workhorse because colored mana, and can be cast out of hand basically for free unlike the huge 6 cost of horse.
Ripper is unblockable, and 3 cards is massive. Specters blow and are slow/blockable. May even cut the one I have already.
Grenzo can get shut out by other methods as well, and leyline is good on its own. It may be cut one day, but currently I like the insurance of it, leave it alone I may or may not replace it.
I like my red mana in on non-basics, so when I do play moons it typically only hits the land I was using for red mana anyways. The deck desperately wants to have red mana on turn two to drop grenzo so I need to keep that count up to make sure I get that consistently. By the time cabals kicks in especially in a non monoblack deck something has gone seriously wrong with my gameplan and I have likely lost anyways. It is not designed to sink lots of mana into grenzo so it does not need ramp, its designed to win by turn 5 or sooner with normal land drops. Using grenzo as a back up plan vs control decks to clear the way for combos or if combos fail. But these are slower paced games were I can ramp naturally anyways.
Stone answers problems I otherwise don't have an answer for and is very solid it will not be leaving.
Spastica nailed alot of things.
Lili is strong, but not over dystopia which keeps on loving, and hits enchants which I otherwise dont have an answer for. Redcap/nekrtull are really too narrow, outrage is subpar in hand but can actually do enough damage to kill a wide range of real threats. He is not the greatest, but he is better then those two because of that.
I run four artifacts in total, two of which dont get played unless they are going to be used before I use grenzo again anyways. I'll take manics 1 cmc less over the other guy. Therapy is meh compared to other options.
I love master and herald, and they can be huge game winners. Herald is really strong against blue control which is always a problem. Master rarely does work, its beautiful when he does, but its pretty rare he may not last much longer.
Mogg is good, I may try to put it in not sure yet. Dread and Snatcher are neat, but I prefer the safer current set up, snatcher is solid, but I would run reanimate over dread, and I don't think snatcher is quite good enough on his own without planing to use the stack.
@asporia: perhaps you meant something else instead of gob chieftain, because it doesnt protect kiki since kiki already has haste.
if i were to tighten this deck, i'd trim the helm package (as much as you like it from your kagemaro days...) which cuts 5 dedicated combo cards, cut animate dead/dance/shred memory, and leave just dimir machinations because it can get moon, necromancy, fire covenant, contamination
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
No chance of cutting my other animates, they are so strong with both ooze and dragon.
Helm/leyline I am probably going to stick with, because Leyline is very powerful on its own. And without that combo I am all grave/creature reliant which can be fragile and backfire big if something like a leyline is played against me.
(btw nice to see you spas, have not heard from you in quite awhile.)
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
I am liking this stack:
Top:
This stack wins the same turn you cast Doomsday and costs a total of 5 mana, it fails to instant speed removal on Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I think protecting Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is not critical since they can just kill Grenzo in response to Doomsday anyways, meaning we are already vulnerable before Doomsday resolves.
If that doesn't prove to be true, then this stack can protect Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker:
Top:
This stack also wins for 5 mana and protects Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
OMG nargl puting in Fiend is really cool, that may very well warrant workhorse instead of priest. After all there are quite a few cards that can not target black/artifact creatures. Making the change now.
Also I will need to include Manic Vandal that can sometimes replace fiend in case of things like execution capsule.
On the flipside of that argument, most top decks wont run narrow removal, and workhorse being an artifact opens him up to more ways to be removed. Its a tough choice whether to go priest or workhorse, I am not going to do both.
Edit: After a quick gatherer search, there are tons of cards that cant destroy non artifact, or non black, but next to none that cant get both, with that info I will stick to priest and save the extra slot as there is lots of artifact destruction and priest is better in deck anyways.
Spas also brought to my attention that horse dies before kiki can copy it if I use it to get out fiend as well, so priest all the way.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
1) necrotic ooze can win with summoning sickness when triskelion/devourer is in graveyard. you need to wait a turn with pili pala/palladium myr. same thing with kiki+mogg fanatic. unless you have anger...
2) it does not rely on a mana sink for your infinite mana. if there is a pithing needle naming grenzo, you might not be able to do anything with your infinite mana. better to ooze with triskelion/devourer and kill them straightaway with damage. i know triskelion/devourer doesn't work with doomsday, but with doomsday you normally get the kiki+priest of gix+conscript combo or worldgorger+animate+siege-gang combo. ooze combo is for buried alive usually.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Nice take on Grenzo Doomsday build, my build was creature based and when i found your build it was much more consistent than relying on creature chances.
My build for now does not include,
Sadistic Hypnotist
Manic Vandal
Outrage Shaman
Phyrexian Revoker
Braids, Cabal Minion
Mindclaw Shaman
Disciple of Phenax
Master of Cruelties
Dauthi mindripper
Shimian Specter
Herald of Leshrac
I included more hand disruption and artifact hate, and some mana rock acceleration, my playfield consist of wanderers, blue control and marath, doran, jenara for agro. So, instead of creatures that will not draw much attention I play 2cc dwarven blastminers/artifact hate creatures to force opponents to deal with them. For agro match up i just ramp to mass creature kill and doomsday as soon as they recast their commander, for blue control i play, persecute, parallax nexus for hand disruption on turn 4 for me to combo out on turn 5.
I also included splinter twin just in case, i can win through straight method. Also pitched in Conjurer's Bauble ust in case doran/ hand disruption match up discarded my win con, it also draws card for 1 in some match up.
I can see alot of potential here and this might break the current metta running today of Agro Green.
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
1. unmask or whatever
2. dread return (sac priest + priest token + grenzo, reanimate zealous)
3. zealous conscripts (goes to grave)
4. kiki-jiki
5. priest of gix/urabrask
This frees up a slot so you don't need mad auntie anymore. If you run both, it's in case mad auntie is in hand/exile after you doomsday. Dread return is also a good rip from grenzo.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Some (maybe) new propositions :
- skullclamp
- recurring nightmare
- solemn simulacrum
- slavering nulls
- soldevi adnate
- fulminator mage
skullclamp is already a busted card and it seems that the deck runs a decent amount of sac outlets and X/1 creatures.
nightmare is a powerful card and the deck has lots of enters the battlefield triggers, plus the reanimation subtheme. Although I am not sure about this one cause it definitely costs a lot of mana.
simulacrum is a good value card and the deck makes good use of any extra mana. Also going from 4 to 6 manas is meaningful with grenzo in play.
slavering nulls is like a bad specter but cheaper, don't know if it is worth playing.
adnate seems quite good, at worst it refunds itself in mana to reuse grenzo's ability, at best it makes a good use of nekrataal, exarch and such.
fulminator mage to add to the denial disruption.
Skullclamp is a busted card, however I run practically no 1 toughness creatures, excluding a couple that need to be on the field for their effect to stick.
Recuring is a very powerful card, I originally ran it, but it was to pricy to really do the deck much good, pretty much anytime I could use it, I found my self preferring to just sink the mana into grenzo.
The deck functions fine at 3 land and really does not need acceleration. Slavering is just awful :P. I shifted it away from land destruction on purpose, as the only decks I struggle against are not phased my it.
Thank you for your suggestions, I appreciate the input.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Well he for still avoids scavenging ooze/relics, so my reasoning is still good even if it is the case that he wont work under leyline. If I can prove my ruling is right helm/leyline will likely be cut, if I find out I am wrong they will have to stay. Wheel and Reanimator decks probably scare me enough to keep them anyways.
Edit: Leyline/rip will not stop him as he does not care about the zone, however wheel will because the card is no longer in a public state for his effect to read. Grafdiggers can stop him as well. (although on a funny note, if they have both grafdiggers and leyline, grenzo will work cus it will enter from exile :P)
http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-qa/threads/4116931 yea yea, not an official source but I cant find one, and everywhere I look says the same thing, which agrees with how I interpret the card.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
1. Dance of the dead (in case they interrupt combo)
2. Dread return conscripts (sac disciple + priest + token)
3. Disciple of phenax/sadistic hypnotist (discard conscripts)
4. Kiki-jiki
5. Priest of gix/urabrask
(Body snatcher can go in 2. and murderous redcap/sadistic hypnotist in 3. if you don't run dread return.)
Dread gets even better when you run griselbrand like I do and more creatures (37, 33 power 2 or less). It doesn't work with gorger, but it works with necrotic ooze.
Also below is another stack that doesn't need mad auntie or chieftain, and I believe the cards are also useful by themselves in Grenzo. Problem is that it dies to relic/scavenging ooze. Outside of the stack, I think Workhorse is better than Priest of Urabrask but worse than Priest of Gix so I run it as the second priest. Running one priest and workhorse gives you more options than running both priests too.
1. Murderous redcap/viscera(kill snatcher in response to his etb trigger and reanimate zealous)
2. Body snatcher (activate grenzo in response to snatcher's etb trigger)
3. Zealous conscripts
4. Kiki-jiki
5. Workhorse
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Rest in peace and leyline will stop him. And It that betrays cannot steal commanders from the command zone. Straight from gatherer:
When Grenzo's ability resolves, if the creature is for some reason not in the graveyard, it fizzles. Since both replacement effects happen instead of the card being put into the graveyard to begin with it will simply see that no creature was ever there.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called “zone-change triggers.” Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent’s hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.
The triggered ability can find the card in the zone it was put into when it was sacrificed, even if it is not the player's graveyard.
This ruling should apply to grenzo as well. It that betrays gatherer ruling was not going against this one, it was saying if the creature went to a library/someone else got control of it first.
Also the CompRule book says ITB doesn't care where it actually ends up from the sacrifice provided no zone is specified in the trigger therefore if it goes to a hidden zone, it's untouchable, but if it goes to a public zone, it's fair game.
The [O] ruling was just given by Natedogg (the [O] Rep of WotC in the forum) and was also given by Dan K. on the MtG Rules List as well.
http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2614416 Natedogg himself confirming it. It is no longer an arugmenet about wether or not it that betrays can steal from from exile/command zone, but only an argument saying grenzo could be different, however I am fairly confident he is the same.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
I don't quite believe your near perfect record. I've only seen you play 2 matches with this deck on Cockatrice, one against Mimeoplasm and one again Yisan, and you lost both of them. The loss to the Mimeoplasm was the night before you posted saying you've only lost to Doran and Maelstrom Wanderer. You've made tons of big changes since posting your list, indicated clearly that the starting point wasn't especially tuned. There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't believe such a list was winning every match against good players and top decks, even with lots of luck. We may get to such a list, but we're not quite there yet.
I still think Doomsday was quite suspect in the previous list (actually, in 2 of the games I saw you lose, you lost to a single piece of creature or enchantment removal after casting Doomsday). However, the innovation for the 5 mana same turn kill with Doomsday increases the card's strength incredibly. I'd still not play Doomsday unless I could win that turn with it, but now that's definitely worth doing.
I'm not sure what the best stack is--I think I like Workhorse over Priest of Gix/Priest of Urabrask, since you'd never want to cast any of them but Workhorse is a much better random flip off of Grenzo. You said Priest of Gix is much better than Workhorse outside of the combo...I don't think that's true at all. Playing Workhorse and Priest of Gix together seems okay though. I'm not a huge fan of Mad Auntie but I guess it's ok. I like spastika's Dread Return or Body Snatcher stacks better, at least as long as you're playing Necrotic Ooze. Devil's Play and Spikeshot Elder both seem fine; I'm not really sure which is better.
In all your rationale for various combos, I think you're way too scared of Leyline of the Void/Rest in Peace. They saw some play when Zur was around, but now they never do. I've played easily over 200 games with Varolz (a deck which pretty much can't win with one of those cards in play), and have had to deal with Leyline or RIP literally zero times. They're not good against most decks, and they don't see play. You have frequently justified choices on the basis of "but X fails against Leyline," and that's irrelevant. It should influence any choices you make with this deck.
I don't like most creatures with activated abilities that take mana to use in this deck, since you already have a good mana sink in your general and want to put your mana there. The exception might be Moggcatcher, since fetching Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Siege-Gang Commander straight into play seems very powerful. It can also get removal in the form of Outrage Shaman, Murderous Redcap, or Stingscourger, and potentially land destruction (Goblin Settler) or artifact destruction (if you replace Manic Vandal with Tuktuk Scrapper, which also won't randomly kill your own artifacts sometimes when flipped off Grenzo). Just a thought.
I don't agree that the deck functions fine on 3 land. While you can sometimes win there with one of your combos, this deck comes with a built-in mana sink, and scales very well with increased land drops. I watched spastika win a game the other night where he basically did nothing but play lands and activate Grenzo, and he won that game. I also saw you get stuck on 3 lands in 3 separate games, each time complaining about how much you needed to draw more land. I'm not making this up. I think I like Solemn Simulacrum, Soldevi Adnate, and Palladium Myr in this deck, as extra accel that works with Grenzo, and I'd think about fitting in a couple more land too.
Other comments going down your list...
Outrage Shaman is ok but I think Murderous Redcap/Nekrataal is probably better. 5 mana is just gross if you have to cast it, and it's not necessarily going to kill stuff any better than the other options, which are more playable and have more utility.
I'd consider Tuktuk Scrapper over Manic Vandal, despite the worse cost, not just for potential goblin synergies but because it's a "may." Opponents don't always have artifacts, and being forced to destroy one of your own off Grenzo sounds really bad.
Is Braids, Cabal Minion really worth it? I think it's very reasonable to leave out the land destruction suite for the reasons you explain. This isn't a deck that attacks an opponent's onboard resources, nor is it particularly filled with things you want to sacrifice. Braids doesn't really complement your plan, and I'm not sure she's good enough on her own to pull her weight. She seems much better if you do play the land destruction.
I don't really get what Master of Cruelties is doing for you. It's a cool card but it doesn't seem very good against anything. You're unlikely to get him through against most decks, and even if you somehow do you won't necessarily be able to finish the job.
Dauthi Mindripper seems a little subpar compared to the other discard. Hypnotic Specter is probably better.
How's Herald of Leshrac been? Just curious.
I like Workhorse over Priest of Urabrask, as I said. I'd much rather flip a 4/4 that makes 4 mana when I want it than a 2/1 that makes 3 mana which may go to waste. Priest is easier to cast, but a free 2/1 isn't doing much of anything in this deck.
I think you play too many tutors. Cruel Tutor and Diabolic Tutor are particularly awful. Shred Memory doesn't seem to do too much for you. Gamble is quite a gamble, since you're usually going to be holding something you really don't want to discard. Even Dimir Machinations and Beseech the Queen are suspect, since if you tutor up something like Buried Alive or Doomsday, you generally have to pass the turn, and it guarantees that your opponent will play around it if they can. Most decks can. Even if they're not holding an answer, if they behave as if they do you're going to get screwed a certain amount of the time unless you always have discard as well. Despite all the combos I don't think this deck actually needs nearly so many tutors. They tend to be bad in multiples too, and you've got to draw multiples a lot.
Defense Grid is a great addition for this deck. Good job.
You have enough discard and creatures now that Cabal Therapy might be worth playing, even if you're not using it in a Doomsday combo.
I still think that Oblivion Stone has no place in this deck. You have enough sweepers already. I like Dystopia in general, but I don't think it's particularly good here either, since you're really not playing a slow control deck. Against some decks the card does nothing, against others they have so many little elves or tokens that they don't really care. I think you could definitely be playing something higher impact, like Liliana of the Veil, which accomplishes a similar role but with more versatility, precision, and synergy with your plan.
There might be something to be said for cutting back on the worse nonbasic lands (especially since you play Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon), and trying to play more swamps, Cabal Coffers, and Ruination. Your red requirements aren't high, Coffers could be very powerful with Grenzo, and Ruination is just a game-winning card against most decks right now. Even though the Moons do something similar, with so many tutors, it seems worth a try.
Overall the list is looking much stronger than the one you first posted though. Getting better and better. I look forward to seeing it continue to evolve--I think you definitely could have a top tier deck on your hands here.
I disagree about Tuktuk scrapper. Sure it's probably better if you run moggcatcher, but outside of that the 1 mana difference would mean a grenzo flip in this deck. Much better to cast, and manic's lack of "may" is mostly irrelevant. The mandatory trigger from manic is unlikely to hurt grenzo I think, since the only artifact that you care about is chrome mox (solemn simulacrum, workhorse and triskelion don't mind dying, neither does phyrexian devourer).
Also Braids can be a game-winning card by herself, much more powerful than a goblin settlers/avalanche riders. I wouldn't classify her as an LD card, but more as a game-winning bomb that can take over if unanswered. She gets better the more creatures you run in grenzo obviously.
What Deaths said about leyline hurting some various combo stacks, including my dread return/body snatcher stacks, applies with scavenging ooze/relic as well, so I guess he has a point. Mad auntie is generally safer in the doomsday stack, but dread return and snatcher are good cards by themselves I find (especially with griselbrand as an additional target) and they're alternatives if auntie is exiled/in hand.
Coffers is tough. I think this deck needs to only run like less than 10 non-Swamps to take advantage of Coffers. But on that note I can see this deck now just being almost monoblack in manabse (with 9 fetches and 2 duals) because the only red cards you cast are moon, gamble and Grenzo. Maybe 2-3 basic Mountains, but other than that no red sources.
EDIT: HOLY CRAP MOGGCATCHER IS a 2/2. i thought it was a 3/3 the entire time omgadddd
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
As for me taking "most of your suggestions" I took a couple and was grateful, but the majority I had already done, or disagreed with and stuck to, or cut for unrelated reasons and were not replaced by your suggestions, such as the leyline stack and all its supporters being replaced by the priest version.
I want more tutors, not less. Still combo oriented, not good stuff oriented, cutting them would ruin its consistent combo rate and put me in a I hope grenzo can win the game on his own which he typically cant. Multiples is a good thing because other then doomsday they are all two card combos anyways, and tutor is a tutor anyways I can get a negator, or removal. Tempo is, grenzo turn two, tutor turn 3, win turn 4, or tutor again win turn 5. Tutors win games.
Like priests over workhorse because colored mana, and can be cast out of hand basically for free unlike the huge 6 cost of horse.
Ripper is unblockable, and 3 cards is massive. Specters blow and are slow/blockable. May even cut the one I have already.
Grenzo can get shut out by other methods as well, and leyline is good on its own. It may be cut one day, but currently I like the insurance of it, leave it alone I may or may not replace it.
I like my red mana in on non-basics, so when I do play moons it typically only hits the land I was using for red mana anyways. The deck desperately wants to have red mana on turn two to drop grenzo so I need to keep that count up to make sure I get that consistently. By the time cabals kicks in especially in a non monoblack deck something has gone seriously wrong with my gameplan and I have likely lost anyways. It is not designed to sink lots of mana into grenzo so it does not need ramp, its designed to win by turn 5 or sooner with normal land drops. Using grenzo as a back up plan vs control decks to clear the way for combos or if combos fail. But these are slower paced games were I can ramp naturally anyways.
Stone answers problems I otherwise don't have an answer for and is very solid it will not be leaving.
Spastica nailed alot of things.
Lili is strong, but not over dystopia which keeps on loving, and hits enchants which I otherwise dont have an answer for. Redcap/nekrtull are really too narrow, outrage is subpar in hand but can actually do enough damage to kill a wide range of real threats. He is not the greatest, but he is better then those two because of that.
I run four artifacts in total, two of which dont get played unless they are going to be used before I use grenzo again anyways. I'll take manics 1 cmc less over the other guy. Therapy is meh compared to other options.
I love master and herald, and they can be huge game winners. Herald is really strong against blue control which is always a problem. Master rarely does work, its beautiful when he does, but its pretty rare he may not last much longer.
Mogg is good, I may try to put it in not sure yet. Dread and Snatcher are neat, but I prefer the safer current set up, snatcher is solid, but I would run reanimate over dread, and I don't think snatcher is quite good enough on his own without planing to use the stack.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira