Well, I think it is a little bit more complicated than that. Yes the Cockatrice metagame is more evolved, no doubt. But I see many unique decks there, because I think people on Cockatrice tend to be willing to be creative, and there is nothing special to win. Would there be 100€ for the winner, hox many would have switched to Edric ?
I've played about 30 games with Edric last months on Cockatrice. I've won about 80% of my games with that deck, most of them were very easy. Of course, some matches I played were against unexperimented players, but even against good players Edric's results are outstanding.
Edric plays a very dangerous tempo threat : if it connects for two or three cards, it's usually over. It runs efficient removals (Pongidify, Beast Within, Snap, Man-o-War, etc) and good evasive beaters. One day I even took Perish wiping my board (nasty tech, Evergreen), and finally won my game despite that huge loss, just because when you start drawing you just draw enough to refill your threats. Manlands help a lot with that.
All that was to say : I don't believe Edric is overestimated. It is one of the best (and probably the best) decks in the format.
This. Exactly my thinking
I've been playing the goodstuff Edric in the tourney and so far I'm 6-2 overall. The deck is similar to Thorgal666's decklist, though my version had some cards his didn't (but after seeing his list, I modified two or three cards that I liked from his). Like Emether said, if you let 2-3 key cards resolve (aka letting Edric himself stick once or twice), you've probably already won. The deck is fairly mindless to pilot. Depending on my opponent, I usually have a game plan in mind. Usually all that means is "what cards do I need to be searching for in order to win". An example is vs control, find Stable Stag or Thrun: get those on the board as quickly as possible and you'll probably win quickly. Against other Edric: either outramp them and stick Edric on the board and/or keep their Edric off the board. I honestly don't think there is a deck that has a win percent greater than 55 against Edric. The only matchup I've found that I consistently lose to is Edric Zoo. It's way to fast and snowballs faster than you can.
My games with Magicror in the tournament I got fairly lucky. Game 1 I ended up winning the counter/bounce war and eventually shoved enough cards that I snowballed and won. Game 2 he snowballed by turn 4 and I lost right away. Game 3 he all-in'ed me, but I had the answer and he never was able to recover. Edric is a deck that regardless of your skill as a pilot has a strong chance of winning games. It also has the ability to mulligan well and even with slow starts, gain back tempo. It rarely runs out of gas. And there are different types of versions (Zoo, Goodstuff, Hybrid), all that are extremely hard to cover at the same time.
As for the tourney results, I am also surprised at no Edric or GAA. I've been talking to Impuslaxl a lot and he tells me that the players are starting to get bored with Edric. Is this true? Are we seeing a shift in the French scene? Also, was Thorgal piloting the Radha deck? I know I've seen him play it a lot on Cockatrice.
French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
Not sure if anyone will care, but I had a fairly long chat with Thorgal today while he was waiting around for matches. Just general metagame stuff and talking about banning cards. I think he had some interesting things to say so I'll post the log. It's pretty short but I think an interesting thing he talks about is that Loyal Retainers needs to be one of the cards considered for banning. Another thing that he said was the unbanning of Recurring Nightmare. I'm not so sure about that one, I feel like a lot of decks would figure out a way to abuse that, most of all Karador decks. The last thing he talked about is if the unbanning of Edric goes through, he is worried about how Geist would become the next power house deck. Just a food for thought discussion.
[08:14] perfekt: no good opponents today
[08:14] Thorgal666: lol yes
[08:15] perfekt: id play, but im tired and its early
[08:15] Thorgal666: ok
[08:16] perfekt: also i wanted to say that im a big fan. i saww your edric list. mine was similiar to yours, but definitely not as well built
[08:16] Thorgal666: thanks!
[08:16] perfekt: im currently piloting it in a online tournament and im undefeated
deck is so strong ;D
[08:16] Thorgal666: I think edric must be ban
[08:17] perfekt: yes i completely agree
are you on the council?
[08:17] Thorgal666: o but a good friend of me is on
[08:18] perfekt: emether?
[08:18] Thorgal666: moondust
[08:18] perfekt: oh yes
moon is a great player
[08:18] Thorgal666: yes!
[08:18] perfekt: can i ask a few questions about the french metagame?
[08:19] Thorgal666: if you want
[08:19] perfekt: so cards that are extremely powerful on cockatrice are
[08:19] Thorgal666: but the metagam is different for each town
[08:19] perfekt: survival ofthe fittiest, oath of druids and demonic tutor
is there any chance any of those cards will be banned?
[08:20] Thorgal666: I hope no!
[08:20] perfekt: really? you dont think any are overpowered?
[08:20] Thorgal666: for me only one card must be ban : loyal reatiners
[08:20] perfekt: interesting. why retainers and not survival?
[08:21] Thorgal666: because survival is one of the greatest card for win against control deck
and because it's a very interesting enchantement
[08:22] perfekt: i think the biggest problem with survival is that it lets you pick and choose any creature that can quickly destroy your opponent
i agree with the control aspect
[08:22] Thorgal666: survival, jitte, sylvan library, ancient tomb are the most powerful card
[08:22] perfekt: searching for thrun or stable stag is very nice
i agree
the problem i have with it
[08:23] Thorgal666: survival is too slow against lot of deck
[08:23] perfekt: is that say in karador, you cycle through dropping elesh/iona/griselbrand into the grave
and cast loyal
and youve basically won
why do you say its slow?
[08:24] Thorgal666: for karador survival is the best card
[08:25] perfekt: i dont think ive lost a game when i cast survival turn 2
maybe your right
loyal retainers breaks the deck
[08:25] Thorgal666: for me karador isn't a good deck
He wins only with loyal retainers
[08:26] perfekt: interesting. because of all the graveyard hate?
oh you have an opponenet. talk after
[08:26] Thorgal666: because karador is too slow
in my metagme doran is a better deck
[08:28] perfekt: because of how fast the aggro is?
[08:28] Thorgal666: radha, clique aggro, geist, doran aggro are very fast and aggressive
for me recurring nightmare must be deban
[08:31] perfekt: O_O
that card is so good lol
[08:31] Thorgal666: very good card for karador if loyal retainers is ban
[08:32] perfekt: ><
might be too good
it would be able to still get the legends a lot with say sun titan
[08:33] Thorgal666: a few years ago when recuring ban no deck play it
[08:33] perfekt: was karador a general at the time?
[08:34] Thorgal666: no
[08:34] perfekt: i cant really think of any other decks that would play it
maybe a dredge deck? idk
[08:35] Thorgal666: I want to play a dredge deck but it's difficult
if intuiton and fastbond are deban I play dredge deck
if edric is ban I'm afraid that geist became too strong
French EDH BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB B Braids, Cabal Minion B G Titania, Protector of Argoth G R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us My Street Art
@perfekt: I can definitely see geist taking over. Geist is just so hard to remove. With my Olivia list, which has I think 60-40 matchup against edric, even with all of the mass removal and narrow hate cards like dystopia, geist is so hard to remove. If Edric is out of the metagame (which is one of the worst matchups for geist) I can definitely see Geist taking over.
I'm not sure loyal retainers or survival needs to be banned, although both are very good, loyal retainers is only good with survival. If you draw it, it's usually a dead card. Survival is good, but without vengevine I don't find it to be overpowered here. I would leave recurring nightmare on there then.
Braids can definitely come off of the banlist, it might enable a new archtype while probably being very weak due to dying from the same hate as edric.
I don't think erayo is really broken in this format either as monoblue already has a lot of trouble with the aggro / tempo decks in the format, it requires a lot of work to combo off with and isn't a hard lock until you find an enchantment, a permanent type which is difficult to find in monoblue. Even if you do lock the other player out if the other player has more board position you will probably still lose. I can't imagine erayo being any better as a general than teferi.
Personally I would like to see jitte considered for banning as that card is just obnoxious to play against.
@perfekt: I can definitely see geist taking over. Geist is just so hard to remove. With my Olivia list, which has I think 60-40 matchup against edric, even with all of the mass removal and narrow hate cards like dystopia, geist is so hard to remove. If Edric is out of the metagame (which is one of the worst matchups for geist) I can definitely see Geist taking over.
I actually classify Olivia as a much harder matchup than edric is. The double wraths I play and manlands make edric much closer to 50/50 than olivia is. If olivia sticks, I'm pretty sunk unless I have a sword out - Olivia's ability to ping the angel to pump her up to then kill geist makes attacking out of the question unless I can get through safely. Even then the attack needs to be worthwhile.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I actually classify Olivia as a much harder matchup than edric is. The double wraths I play and manlands make edric much closer to 50/50 than olivia is. If olivia sticks, I'm pretty sunk unless I have a sword out - Olivia's ability to ping the angel to pump her up to then kill geist makes attacking out of the question unless I can get through safely. Even then the attack needs to be worthwhile.
There might be differences between our geist lists, but I have found that getting Olivia to stick is quite hard through all the counterspells/removal / bounce before I'm already at too low a lifetotal. I'm not saying the matchup is bad, I would say it's about 50/50, but it is quite bad considering the hate I already pack for x/2 decks.
PS: The list I have in my sig is not my updated list from the tournament.
I actually classify Olivia as a much harder matchup than edric is. The double wraths I play and manlands make edric much closer to 50/50 than olivia is. If olivia sticks, I'm pretty sunk unless I have a sword out - Olivia's ability to ping the angel to pump her up to then kill geist makes attacking out of the question unless I can get through safely. Even then the attack needs to be worthwhile.
Lol when Perfekt had a little glitch and paired Magicror twice in the fourth round, I was actually extremely let down when I found out I'd be facing Olivia instead of Edric.
If Edric were banned, the mega-density of spot removal cards would even out again, and there wouldn't be as many "dead" cards in the matchup vs. Geist. So yeah, maybe Geist becomes dominant for a little while, but then those spot removal cards become threats again and Geist is on his back heels trying to make sure you don't resolve something killer.
On the topic of Retainers, the only deck that might even consider using it if Survival was banned is Sisay, and I honestly don't know that it would make the cut. I'd probably rather run Karmic Guide again as it would have more targets. This comes up form time to time, but I ultimately think that "enablers" should be banned first, so Survival is the more problematic of the two, and I think it's evidently overpowered when Wizards has "corrected" the card in a creature form and in the form of Birthing Pod. I also think it's obviously un-intuitive in a big deck format, and these are the sorts of cards that traditionally get banned first with extreme prejudice (looking at 5-color here).
Really, I'm just SICK of under-costed banned Legacy cards dominating games. In my opinion, Oath of Druids and Skullclamp lead to insane blowouts and leave a very bitter taste in my mouth, with Survival, Earthcraft, Demonic Tutor, and Mystical Tutor being lesser problems but still big problems. Cards like these really tilt the luck factor of the format and reward inconsistent deckbuilding (oh crap! I'm about to lose, better tutor up the only card I put in the deck that turns this into a blowout in my favor right now)--or worst, encourage decks to be designed around these cards. I consider Karador to be a Survival deck, and many new builds to be Oath decks, and this parallels what was happening in the Salvation meta before the previous dudes started to use French bans. When the general is overshadowed by proven problematic Legacy cards, we have a serious problem.
I don't know, it just really depends on the sort of EDH dueling experience you want. If we want something to be more balanced and more interactive, then it's a no brainer that the above cards aren't contributing to that sort of environment. But if we want EDH duels to be more swingy and more of a spectacle, then we're right on course for that.
I'm always going to argue for balance fixes over random blowouts myself, but I understand the appeal of the other choice and that change takes time--and, as Perfekt and Thorgal discussed, not all metas are alike. Eventually, though, I think all metas will start to see increasingly more emphasis on frustratingly undercosted/overpowered Legacy-banned cards as the previous-Salvation meta saw (at least Hermit Druid is already dealt with.. it's a start). And then maybe my grumblings won't sound so out of left-field for everyone. ;P But this is what I'm seeing now on Salvation, and it's frustrating and tiresome to this guy.
Edit: lol the tutoring criticism irony is not lost on me, as that's what it can feel like playing against Sisay, but.. she's 4 mana and in g/w?
[EDIT: Why do you identify Mystical Tutor as a problem Riley? What cards is it fetching that give you that bitter taste?]
I'll admit, it's difficult not to make this personal, because it's been my experience with these two cards that they really push the extinction builds over the top and all-but-squeeze out an entire other archetype--decks that want to do anything with creatures. The big offenders are Damia, Thrax, and Ruhan; being able to tutor for one or two mana to find Damnation, Infest, and Volcanic Fallout is absurdly oppressive to aggro and creature-based decks, who are often just one or two turns from achieving their win condition / dealing critical. With more appropriately/fixed costed tutors, Aggro decks who are having a good game would actually score some wins. But as these sorts of "to hell with aggro and aggro-control" decks have become extremely popular online, aggro decks are almost entirely unplayable on Cockatrice against tier 1 builds.
And again, there's an "enabler" problem with these cards; Demonic Tutor being able to grab Oath is no doubt overpowered (though I think most of us agree that Oath needs to be banned, too), but you also see obnoxious swingy scenarios where Mystical tutor finds a transmute card for "sweeps" or Humility or dumb scenarios where getting Cryptic Command and tapping your creatures down for one turn changes the outcome or what have you. If my opponent has Pyroclasm in hand and I went a little too far out there trying to get board dominance, fine. I'm okay with this. If my opponent uses an overpowered Tier 1 tutor to blow me out.. then what did I learn that match? That trying to play any creatures was a mistake and I should have expected to get blown out by an overpowered Legacy-banned card? My bad?
Remember, this isn't a format where you can afford to hold back plays if you're a creature build. This is a format where you have to go all in to outrace control, sweepers, and combos, and bigger and stronger generals, because your opponent's win con is always available and your clock is set. And given the volatile one-of nature and the difficulty enough of having a consistent aggro plan, sometimes just getting your two creatures on the board swept away is enough to soundly lose, and I'd argue that this is not a deckbuilding problem. Sweepers exist, but they shouldn't be so cheaply and readily available, as this leads to inevitable losses for creature-based archetypes in a meta that has extreme prejudice for Edric and any other G/x deck.
Ultimately, I'd argue that the availability of Tier 1 tutors makes deckbuilding less interesting and less diverse, and pushes players away from making aggro decks, or persuading them to try and slow-roll in such a way that they will inevitably lose to Oath decks, Iname, Animar, and Geist. Maybe there wouldn't be such a clear and divisive difference between A and B tier decks if not for the tutors, is what I'm saying.
But yes, in the interest of fairness, Survival is equally obnoxious, and I hate playing it. But I'm not so principled as to put myself at a disadvantage and refuse to play it. Stealing wins for a card that can be played on turn 2 is too good not to play, but it's also too good for eternal-card pool Magic. If you've ever heard the expression "oops, I win"... well, that's how I feel about the outcome of a large portion of the games on Cockatrice. Not a great feeling.
If it means anything to you guys, Survival, Jitte, and Mystical Tutor are all banned in traditional Highlander. Then again, they just banned Birthing Pod, which does seem puzzling on the surface... though I can sort of understand where they were going with that.
Jitte isn't that bad. It's really good, but it steals games just as much as Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of feast and Famine do. I guess it is slightly better because it is cheaper and a little more versatile, but I don't think it needs to be banned.
I wouldn't ban Survival. I don't run Survival in my Doran deck. It wasn't fast enough, I never wanted to play it turn 2. There was never anything that seemed worth tutoring for. I don't run GS Stag, Thrun, Retainers, Iona etc. So maybe that's why. The Animar list I play against doesn't play it either. It isn't a combo build though. Survival is good, but if you build to abuse it, what happens when you don't draw it? The way I built the rest of the deck invalidated it. I don't want to pay three mana and 2 cards for a creature tutor I guess.
Retainers I can see being banned because it is so expensive and easy to abuse. In Karador it is awesome obviously, but without survival would we be talking about banning it? Is it wrong for a deck to have one card that is awesome with the general? Painter's servant is pretty good with Teysa, Animar, and Jaya Ballard.
Mystical tutor I could see as well because it is good. It has definitely gotten me out of a lot of jams. Its even better now that the miracle cards have been printed. Terminus is the nuts. However, most control decks would run more wraths if they could, so it just adds consistency. There have been times when Standard control decks ran 4 Wrath of God/Damnation. Which is the same as 6-7 in a 100 card deck. That isn't an option because those cards don't exist.
The real problem for aggro is the 30 life. Goblin Guide isn't good in this format, so how could red be? I love red in control, but aggro isn't viable because it's best cards aren't good in the format. I'm not suggesting changing that, but it might actually be better for this format to have 20 life.
I think we could safely unban Rofellos, Braids, and Erayo. Not sure about Recurring Nightmare, I have never played with it, but it is powerful.
I never mentioned Oath but I think it is fine. Not being able to play utility creatures is a big drawback.
Eh, I think Survival isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It is rather slow, and requires a lot of deck commitment to play in any combo fashion. As far as Animar goes, Survival is certainly a great card, but it's main purpose is to create a more robust matchup against control. It doesn't actually contribute much to a faster win. IMO the most pronounced tempo swing it offers is Loyal Retainer's / Iona, which has the issue that you never get priority at a point in which removal is meaningful before Iona is active. A nice fix there would be to errate Iona to be a triggered ability.
Ohhh, and even better fix for Iona would be to errate Loyal Retainer's to incorporate Goblin Welder's mechanics. Something like: "0:Choose target legendary creature in your graveyard. If Loyal Retainer's is still on the battlefield as this ability resolves, simultaneously sacrifice Loyal Retainers and return that creature to the battlefield. Activate this ability only as a sorcery, before attackers are declared." It's a stretch I know, but it'd totally be a legit fix.
ATM, with how dominating control is, I have to say I'm in favor of Survival as a balancing card. We should really be addressing things like Jitte, Jace, Oath and the Swords that are jammed relentlessly in control decks, many of which will shamelessly run jitte even without a creature base. Aggro, and even to a lesser extend combo, is just so underrepresented.
Is this thread meant to be for new players? I don't know what half the generals in the OP's tier lists even are -- if you're not going to autocard could you at least type out the whole name so I can search for it?
Googling the nicknames you've given them seems pretty worthless: I googled "Arbiter french EDH" and it came up with lists for both Blood Arbiter and Grand Arbiter -- I have no clue which one is "A-tier" and which one isn't even good enough to make the lists. Trying to get into the format here and I'm new to EDH and basically just trying to look at generals to see which I like, but this thread makes it very difficult.
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Add my MTGO accountOzryelto playtest competitive standard. Currently playing BUG Midrange.
Good point Ozriel. I guess something can be done about that.
Something unrelated : I just saw there is a big Duel Commander side-event at Grand Prix Ghent. It uses the rules for Duel Commander (watch out for June 20th bans). I don't know who organized this, but this is good news for this format's visibility.
July 22nd
Cutthroat Commander
12:00
10 €
"Duel Commander" variant, see http://duelcommander.com/rules/
5 swiss rounds, no playoffs
5 wins → 3 decks (Commander and/or Planechase 2)
4 wins → 2 decks (Commander and/or Planechase 2)
3 wins → 1 deck (Commander or Planechase 2)
Random prizes → From the Vault: Legends single cards, each round!
The Duel Commander rules committee had a nice surprise discovering this. Do you know who organized this side event ?
I cannot tell you how much I wish I could afford to travel there and participate.
Yes, this is very good for the format.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Good point Ozriel. I guess something can be done about that.
Something unrelated : I just saw there is a big Duel Commander side-event at Grand Prix Ghent. It uses the rules for Duel Commander (watch out for June 20th bans). I don't know who organized this, but this is good news for this format's visibility.
July 22nd
Cutthroat Commander
12:00
10 €
"Duel Commander" variant, see http://duelcommander.com/rules/
5 swiss rounds, no playoffs
5 wins → 3 decks (Commander and/or Planechase 2)
4 wins → 2 decks (Commander and/or Planechase 2)
3 wins → 1 deck (Commander or Planechase 2)
Random prizes → From the Vault: Legends single cards, each round!
The Duel Commander rules committee had a nice surprise discovering this. Do you know who organized this side event ?
This means ~23 decks per 32 players. Seems like pretty good value for €10.
Alright, I've just updated the OP with the new unbannings and by making the generals in the Tier list clickable so that newer players can tell who they are (also spelled out their full names).
On the conclusion of the Salvation tourney, I'll scour back in time for tournament results from January (or later, at this rate) and update the tournament tier list. As for the Cockatrice tier list, I haven't been on in about a month (oh, Diablo 3). Has anyone been keeping up with the meta? Your input on what's changed with the decks to beat would be appreciated.
Actually, to make my life easier: If anyone would like to find tournament results from the past 6 months and post them below, I'd love you forever! And, going forward, posting tournament results in this thread is definitely encouraged.
Could someone point me to a competitive Merieke Reanmiator list? I tried to build my own but it isn't working out so well. I've been looking all over for the one played at Tournai to get some inspiration, but to no avail.
Wow, thanks! That is very different than I was trying to build it, is this a pretty standard list? What really stands out to me is the suite of Parallax enchantments, the cantrip flickers, and the sovereigns package, really cool stuff.
I'll have to put it together and try it out. Looks like there's many of synergies I won't get until I sit down and run it through a few games.
Thanks again!
EDIT: Is there a combo/synergy I'm overlooking involving the 3 parallax enchantments? I know they can be abused by removing them at the right time but I can't find a way to do that in this list. Are they used in a more fair way? What is their purpose? Just disruption while you go to work on their life total?
good luck to everyone
This. Exactly my thinking
I've been playing the goodstuff Edric in the tourney and so far I'm 6-2 overall. The deck is similar to Thorgal666's decklist, though my version had some cards his didn't (but after seeing his list, I modified two or three cards that I liked from his). Like Emether said, if you let 2-3 key cards resolve (aka letting Edric himself stick once or twice), you've probably already won. The deck is fairly mindless to pilot. Depending on my opponent, I usually have a game plan in mind. Usually all that means is "what cards do I need to be searching for in order to win". An example is vs control, find Stable Stag or Thrun: get those on the board as quickly as possible and you'll probably win quickly. Against other Edric: either outramp them and stick Edric on the board and/or keep their Edric off the board. I honestly don't think there is a deck that has a win percent greater than 55 against Edric. The only matchup I've found that I consistently lose to is Edric Zoo. It's way to fast and snowballs faster than you can.
My games with Magicror in the tournament I got fairly lucky. Game 1 I ended up winning the counter/bounce war and eventually shoved enough cards that I snowballed and won. Game 2 he snowballed by turn 4 and I lost right away. Game 3 he all-in'ed me, but I had the answer and he never was able to recover. Edric is a deck that regardless of your skill as a pilot has a strong chance of winning games. It also has the ability to mulligan well and even with slow starts, gain back tempo. It rarely runs out of gas. And there are different types of versions (Zoo, Goodstuff, Hybrid), all that are extremely hard to cover at the same time.
As for the tourney results, I am also surprised at no Edric or GAA. I've been talking to Impuslaxl a lot and he tells me that the players are starting to get bored with Edric. Is this true? Are we seeing a shift in the French scene? Also, was Thorgal piloting the Radha deck? I know I've seen him play it a lot on Cockatrice.
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
[08:14] Thorgal666: lol yes
[08:15] perfekt: id play, but im tired and its early
[08:15] Thorgal666: ok
[08:16] perfekt: also i wanted to say that im a big fan. i saww your edric list. mine was similiar to yours, but definitely not as well built
[08:16] Thorgal666: thanks!
[08:16] perfekt: im currently piloting it in a online tournament and im undefeated
deck is so strong ;D
[08:16] Thorgal666: I think edric must be ban
[08:17] perfekt: yes i completely agree
are you on the council?
[08:17] Thorgal666: o but a good friend of me is on
[08:18] perfekt: emether?
[08:18] Thorgal666: moondust
[08:18] perfekt: oh yes
moon is a great player
[08:18] Thorgal666: yes!
[08:18] perfekt: can i ask a few questions about the french metagame?
[08:19] Thorgal666: if you want
[08:19] perfekt: so cards that are extremely powerful on cockatrice are
[08:19] Thorgal666: but the metagam is different for each town
[08:19] perfekt: survival ofthe fittiest, oath of druids and demonic tutor
is there any chance any of those cards will be banned?
[08:20] Thorgal666: I hope no!
[08:20] perfekt: really? you dont think any are overpowered?
[08:20] Thorgal666: for me only one card must be ban : loyal reatiners
[08:20] perfekt: interesting. why retainers and not survival?
[08:21] Thorgal666: because survival is one of the greatest card for win against control deck
and because it's a very interesting enchantement
[08:22] perfekt: i think the biggest problem with survival is that it lets you pick and choose any creature that can quickly destroy your opponent
i agree with the control aspect
[08:22] Thorgal666: survival, jitte, sylvan library, ancient tomb are the most powerful card
[08:22] perfekt: searching for thrun or stable stag is very nice
i agree
the problem i have with it
[08:23] Thorgal666: survival is too slow against lot of deck
[08:23] perfekt: is that say in karador, you cycle through dropping elesh/iona/griselbrand into the grave
and cast loyal
and youve basically won
why do you say its slow?
[08:24] Thorgal666: for karador survival is the best card
[08:25] perfekt: i dont think ive lost a game when i cast survival turn 2
maybe your right
loyal retainers breaks the deck
[08:25] Thorgal666: for me karador isn't a good deck
He wins only with loyal retainers
[08:26] perfekt: interesting. because of all the graveyard hate?
oh you have an opponenet. talk after
[08:26] Thorgal666: because karador is too slow
in my metagme doran is a better deck
[08:28] perfekt: because of how fast the aggro is?
[08:28] Thorgal666: radha, clique aggro, geist, doran aggro are very fast and aggressive
for me recurring nightmare must be deban
[08:31] perfekt: O_O
that card is so good lol
[08:31] Thorgal666: very good card for karador if loyal retainers is ban
[08:32] perfekt: ><
might be too good
it would be able to still get the legends a lot with say sun titan
[08:33] Thorgal666: a few years ago when recuring ban no deck play it
[08:33] perfekt: was karador a general at the time?
[08:34] Thorgal666: no
[08:34] perfekt: i cant really think of any other decks that would play it
maybe a dredge deck? idk
[08:35] Thorgal666: I want to play a dredge deck but it's difficult
if intuiton and fastbond are deban I play dredge deck
if edric is ban I'm afraid that geist became too strong
BRGW Saskia the Unyielding BRGW
GUWB Thrasios, Triton Hero // Tymna the Weaver GUWB
B Braids, Cabal Minion B
G Titania, Protector of Argoth G
R Zurgo Bellstriker R
Founding Father of [Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
My Street Art
I'm not sure loyal retainers or survival needs to be banned, although both are very good, loyal retainers is only good with survival. If you draw it, it's usually a dead card. Survival is good, but without vengevine I don't find it to be overpowered here. I would leave recurring nightmare on there then.
Braids can definitely come off of the banlist, it might enable a new archtype while probably being very weak due to dying from the same hate as edric.
I don't think erayo is really broken in this format either as monoblue already has a lot of trouble with the aggro / tempo decks in the format, it requires a lot of work to combo off with and isn't a hard lock until you find an enchantment, a permanent type which is difficult to find in monoblue. Even if you do lock the other player out if the other player has more board position you will probably still lose. I can't imagine erayo being any better as a general than teferi.
Personally I would like to see jitte considered for banning as that card is just obnoxious to play against.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
I actually classify Olivia as a much harder matchup than edric is. The double wraths I play and manlands make edric much closer to 50/50 than olivia is. If olivia sticks, I'm pretty sunk unless I have a sword out - Olivia's ability to ping the angel to pump her up to then kill geist makes attacking out of the question unless I can get through safely. Even then the attack needs to be worthwhile.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
There might be differences between our geist lists, but I have found that getting Olivia to stick is quite hard through all the counterspells/removal / bounce before I'm already at too low a lifetotal. I'm not saying the matchup is bad, I would say it's about 50/50, but it is quite bad considering the hate I already pack for x/2 decks.
PS: The list I have in my sig is not my updated list from the tournament.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
Lol when Perfekt had a little glitch and paired Magicror twice in the fourth round, I was actually extremely let down when I found out I'd be facing Olivia instead of Edric.
If Edric were banned, the mega-density of spot removal cards would even out again, and there wouldn't be as many "dead" cards in the matchup vs. Geist. So yeah, maybe Geist becomes dominant for a little while, but then those spot removal cards become threats again and Geist is on his back heels trying to make sure you don't resolve something killer.
On the topic of Retainers, the only deck that might even consider using it if Survival was banned is Sisay, and I honestly don't know that it would make the cut. I'd probably rather run Karmic Guide again as it would have more targets. This comes up form time to time, but I ultimately think that "enablers" should be banned first, so Survival is the more problematic of the two, and I think it's evidently overpowered when Wizards has "corrected" the card in a creature form and in the form of Birthing Pod. I also think it's obviously un-intuitive in a big deck format, and these are the sorts of cards that traditionally get banned first with extreme prejudice (looking at 5-color here).
Really, I'm just SICK of under-costed banned Legacy cards dominating games. In my opinion, Oath of Druids and Skullclamp lead to insane blowouts and leave a very bitter taste in my mouth, with Survival, Earthcraft, Demonic Tutor, and Mystical Tutor being lesser problems but still big problems. Cards like these really tilt the luck factor of the format and reward inconsistent deckbuilding (oh crap! I'm about to lose, better tutor up the only card I put in the deck that turns this into a blowout in my favor right now)--or worst, encourage decks to be designed around these cards. I consider Karador to be a Survival deck, and many new builds to be Oath decks, and this parallels what was happening in the Salvation meta before the previous dudes started to use French bans. When the general is overshadowed by proven problematic Legacy cards, we have a serious problem.
I don't know, it just really depends on the sort of EDH dueling experience you want. If we want something to be more balanced and more interactive, then it's a no brainer that the above cards aren't contributing to that sort of environment. But if we want EDH duels to be more swingy and more of a spectacle, then we're right on course for that.
I'm always going to argue for balance fixes over random blowouts myself, but I understand the appeal of the other choice and that change takes time--and, as Perfekt and Thorgal discussed, not all metas are alike. Eventually, though, I think all metas will start to see increasingly more emphasis on frustratingly undercosted/overpowered Legacy-banned cards as the previous-Salvation meta saw (at least Hermit Druid is already dealt with.. it's a start). And then maybe my grumblings won't sound so out of left-field for everyone. ;P But this is what I'm seeing now on Salvation, and it's frustrating and tiresome to this guy.
Edit: lol the tutoring criticism irony is not lost on me, as that's what it can feel like playing against Sisay, but.. she's 4 mana and in g/w?
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
I'll admit, it's difficult not to make this personal, because it's been my experience with these two cards that they really push the extinction builds over the top and all-but-squeeze out an entire other archetype--decks that want to do anything with creatures. The big offenders are Damia, Thrax, and Ruhan; being able to tutor for one or two mana to find Damnation, Infest, and Volcanic Fallout is absurdly oppressive to aggro and creature-based decks, who are often just one or two turns from achieving their win condition / dealing critical. With more appropriately/fixed costed tutors, Aggro decks who are having a good game would actually score some wins. But as these sorts of "to hell with aggro and aggro-control" decks have become extremely popular online, aggro decks are almost entirely unplayable on Cockatrice against tier 1 builds.
And again, there's an "enabler" problem with these cards; Demonic Tutor being able to grab Oath is no doubt overpowered (though I think most of us agree that Oath needs to be banned, too), but you also see obnoxious swingy scenarios where Mystical tutor finds a transmute card for "sweeps" or Humility or dumb scenarios where getting Cryptic Command and tapping your creatures down for one turn changes the outcome or what have you. If my opponent has Pyroclasm in hand and I went a little too far out there trying to get board dominance, fine. I'm okay with this. If my opponent uses an overpowered Tier 1 tutor to blow me out.. then what did I learn that match? That trying to play any creatures was a mistake and I should have expected to get blown out by an overpowered Legacy-banned card? My bad?
Remember, this isn't a format where you can afford to hold back plays if you're a creature build. This is a format where you have to go all in to outrace control, sweepers, and combos, and bigger and stronger generals, because your opponent's win con is always available and your clock is set. And given the volatile one-of nature and the difficulty enough of having a consistent aggro plan, sometimes just getting your two creatures on the board swept away is enough to soundly lose, and I'd argue that this is not a deckbuilding problem. Sweepers exist, but they shouldn't be so cheaply and readily available, as this leads to inevitable losses for creature-based archetypes in a meta that has extreme prejudice for Edric and any other G/x deck.
Ultimately, I'd argue that the availability of Tier 1 tutors makes deckbuilding less interesting and less diverse, and pushes players away from making aggro decks, or persuading them to try and slow-roll in such a way that they will inevitably lose to Oath decks, Iname, Animar, and Geist. Maybe there wouldn't be such a clear and divisive difference between A and B tier decks if not for the tutors, is what I'm saying.
But yes, in the interest of fairness, Survival is equally obnoxious, and I hate playing it. But I'm not so principled as to put myself at a disadvantage and refuse to play it. Stealing wins for a card that can be played on turn 2 is too good not to play, but it's also too good for eternal-card pool Magic. If you've ever heard the expression "oops, I win"... well, that's how I feel about the outcome of a large portion of the games on Cockatrice. Not a great feeling.
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
I wouldn't ban Survival. I don't run Survival in my Doran deck. It wasn't fast enough, I never wanted to play it turn 2. There was never anything that seemed worth tutoring for. I don't run GS Stag, Thrun, Retainers, Iona etc. So maybe that's why. The Animar list I play against doesn't play it either. It isn't a combo build though. Survival is good, but if you build to abuse it, what happens when you don't draw it? The way I built the rest of the deck invalidated it. I don't want to pay three mana and 2 cards for a creature tutor I guess.
Retainers I can see being banned because it is so expensive and easy to abuse. In Karador it is awesome obviously, but without survival would we be talking about banning it? Is it wrong for a deck to have one card that is awesome with the general? Painter's servant is pretty good with Teysa, Animar, and Jaya Ballard.
Mystical tutor I could see as well because it is good. It has definitely gotten me out of a lot of jams. Its even better now that the miracle cards have been printed. Terminus is the nuts. However, most control decks would run more wraths if they could, so it just adds consistency. There have been times when Standard control decks ran 4 Wrath of God/Damnation. Which is the same as 6-7 in a 100 card deck. That isn't an option because those cards don't exist.
The real problem for aggro is the 30 life. Goblin Guide isn't good in this format, so how could red be? I love red in control, but aggro isn't viable because it's best cards aren't good in the format. I'm not suggesting changing that, but it might actually be better for this format to have 20 life.
I think we could safely unban Rofellos, Braids, and Erayo. Not sure about Recurring Nightmare, I have never played with it, but it is powerful.
I never mentioned Oath but I think it is fine. Not being able to play utility creatures is a big drawback.
Level 1 Judge
WUBRG
Ohhh, and even better fix for Iona would be to errate Loyal Retainer's to incorporate Goblin Welder's mechanics. Something like: "0:Choose target legendary creature in your graveyard. If Loyal Retainer's is still on the battlefield as this ability resolves, simultaneously sacrifice Loyal Retainers and return that creature to the battlefield. Activate this ability only as a sorcery, before attackers are declared." It's a stretch I know, but it'd totally be a legit fix.
ATM, with how dominating control is, I have to say I'm in favor of Survival as a balancing card. We should really be addressing things like Jitte, Jace, Oath and the Swords that are jammed relentlessly in control decks, many of which will shamelessly run jitte even without a creature base. Aggro, and even to a lesser extend combo, is just so underrepresented.
All of them are 2/3 like any other tournament. There are no sideboards.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Googling the nicknames you've given them seems pretty worthless: I googled "Arbiter french EDH" and it came up with lists for both Blood Arbiter and Grand Arbiter -- I have no clue which one is "A-tier" and which one isn't even good enough to make the lists. Trying to get into the format here and I'm new to EDH and basically just trying to look at generals to see which I like, but this thread makes it very difficult.
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
I cannot tell you how much I wish I could afford to travel there and participate.
Yes, this is very good for the format.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
This means ~23 decks per 32 players. Seems like pretty good value for €10.
Norin Banned, Emether with the details.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
On the conclusion of the Salvation tourney, I'll scour back in time for tournament results from January (or later, at this rate) and update the tournament tier list. As for the Cockatrice tier list, I haven't been on in about a month (oh, Diablo 3). Has anyone been keeping up with the meta? Your input on what's changed with the decks to beat would be appreciated.
Actually, to make my life easier: If anyone would like to find tournament results from the past 6 months and post them below, I'd love you forever! And, going forward, posting tournament results in this thread is definitely encouraged.
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
My work here is done. ;P
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Level 1 Judge
WUBRG
I found this one:
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck.php?279800
could anyone tell me if that is fairly representative?
Note: I do read a little French, so I'm not scared to dig through a French list, if someone can provide that.
Many thanks.
Merieke Reanimator
1 Frantic Search
1 Careful Study
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mystic Remora
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Entomb
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Force of Will
1 Daze
1 Replenish
1 Treachery
1 Parallax Nexus
1 Parallax Tide
1 Parallax Wave
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Compulsive Research
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Leyline of Anticipation
1 Necromancy
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Gilded Drake
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Academy Rector
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Sun Titan
1 Sovereigns of Lost Alara
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Control Magic
1 Impulse
1 Cloudshift
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Mana Leak
1 Condescend
1 Miscalculation
1 Mana Tithe
1 Tariff
1 Withdraw
1 Griselbrand
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Animate Dead
1 Counterspell
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Force Spike
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 High Market
6 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Watery Grave
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eldrazi Conscription
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Karmic Guide
1 Read the Runes
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Attunement
1 Cerulean Wisps
Wow, thanks! That is very different than I was trying to build it, is this a pretty standard list? What really stands out to me is the suite of Parallax enchantments, the cantrip flickers, and the sovereigns package, really cool stuff.
I'll have to put it together and try it out. Looks like there's many of synergies I won't get until I sit down and run it through a few games.
Thanks again!
EDIT: Is there a combo/synergy I'm overlooking involving the 3 parallax enchantments? I know they can be abused by removing them at the right time but I can't find a way to do that in this list. Are they used in a more fair way? What is their purpose? Just disruption while you go to work on their life total?
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary