I agree that the RC has done a great job keeping this format healthy. I guess I just want to see the format become more popular, and maybe some sanctioned tournament support. I guess the problem is more with people than with the governing body. Ah well, I guess I'll just get used to trice.
I agree that the RC has done a great job keeping this format healthy. I guess I just want to see the format become more popular, and maybe some sanctioned tournament support. I guess the problem is more with people than with the governing body. Ah well, I guess I'll just get used to trice.
It is impossible to have Commander or Duel Commander to be a sanctioned event. It isn't because it is not popular enough - it's purely logistics.
For example, a typical SCG Open usually has anywhere between 7 and 10 rounds of play, each lasting 50 minutes in length. With control matches (usually) going to turns, players can expect each rounds to normally last around an hour, or 65 minutes. In addition, there are random deck-checks throughout the day as all players have been required to register their decklists. Judges have to sort the entire deck out, make sure it is legal, and present them back to the players with a time extension to their round (usually 5 to 10 minutes). So, around 10ish hours for the whole day.
If Duel Commander were to become sanctioned and at the same popularity as an event like an SCG Open:
1) Instead of 50 minute rounds, there are 70 minute rounds - every 3rd round artificially 'adds' a round to the typical timetable of a regular Open.
2) Matches that go to time also continue to add time to this.
3) Deckchecking in Duel Commander would be an absolute nightmare. Not only is it a singleton format (so you can't sort the cards) there are 99 of them in the deck! Checks would take nearly 15 to 20 minutes per round - again adding to the time each round would take.
It is sadly just not feasible to officially sanction a Duel Commander event.
It IS possible to have LGS get in with the Duel Commander crowd, though
We recommend 55 minute rounds for large events - in our experience too many draws happen with 50 minute rounds, but 55 is enough for most decks to finish their third game. Those who don't typically also don't in 60 minutes.
Now, in terms of board states what we get in Duel Commander is often a bit more complicated than other constructed formats, so extra turns tend to last 2-3 minutes longer. This makes, on average, no more than 8 minutes per round longer than a normal constructed tournament.
As for deck checking, techniques can be adapted to check most of the deck while keeping it at no more than 10 minutes extra (it's common judge practice to prioritize tasks during deck checking so that you get the most important things at the beginning and always cut short if you're about to give more than 10 minutes of extra time). Yes, you can't check every single card, but deck modification can still be deterred, just like it's deterred even if you don't check every deck.
With all this, a typical venue that could accomodate an 8-round PTQ can accomodate a 7-round Duel Commander with similar timings.
Daniel
(source: I'm a judge and have run large DC events)
Oh my, you run your DC events with only 55 minute rounds? Apparently many of us in the area are slow players then. Our tournaments have always ran with 70 minute rounds and even then people still go to time!
Never had experience playing against it, so I suppose I can consider myself fortunate. My impression was that this kind of slow play abuse would be easy to spot, but how do you call a judge on someone when they're actually having a tough time deciding? I guess I can understand that, thanks Daniel!
As many as they want, and that's the core of the issue. Losing? How about using up some more time with Top activations. It's to prevent this kind of abuse (and the associated time wasting in extra turns) that we banned it.
Daniel
Understandable, but that's more of a scummy player issue than the card. I mean, it's perfectly healthy in the other similarly powered formats.
@Jivanmukta: Eh, sort of. If something like this is available to a player (and begging to be abused), you'd be surprised how tempting that option is in a competitive setting. Unless otherwise banned, a great many players will just consider that abuse to be "just part of the game" (and for detractors to just be "scrubs").
@Jivanmukta: Eh, sort of. If something like this is available to a player (and begging to be abused), you'd be surprised how tempting that option is in a competitive setting. Unless otherwise banned, a great many players will just consider that abuse to be "just part of the game" (and for detractors to just be "scrubs").
My counter is that it doesn't seem to be an issue in Legacy, at least in the vast vast majority of competitive events I have seen. The type of player who will go out of his away to abuse one card will do it for others.
That being said, I wouldn't argue too hard for it to be legal outside of I don't think the problem actually exists and it sets a potentially bad precedent.
The other problem with top and crucible for that matter is that it would be in every single competitive deck. There is almost no reason not to throw top in any 100 card deck.
i wouldn't run crucible in my duel commander deck. i recently cut it from my multiplayer edh deck as well.
top i agree, as long as the reason is the "goes in any deck". i never saw the time issue, as slow play is applyable everywhere.
But it happens more often than not. Top legal means = people will tutor for it, spin it, and think about what they want. Add that to shuffling with 100 cards. I don't mind shuffling 100 cards and do at a reasonable pace but you hear how people can't shuffle 100 cards more often than not.
The other problem with top and crucible for that matter is that it would be in every single competitive deck. There is almost no reason not to throw top in any 100 card deck.
i wouldn't run crucible in my duel commander deck. i recently cut it from my multiplayer edh deck as well.
top i agree, as long as the reason is the "goes in any deck". i never saw the time issue, as slow play is applyable everywhere.
Totally agree on Crucible. It's strong in stax decks but it's really not that strong in many other decks. Honestly, it's meh in control decks now that Aggro decks are having a field day with the Oloro banning. Good time to unban it. Not as much on Top.
Also, I'm not sure what this forum's opinion on shameless plugs is, but there is a 1v1 Duel Commander tournament happening at Get Your Game On, in Ann Arbor, Michigan on August 23rd. Tournament starts at 12pm (Entry and prized TBD). Location info can be found here http://www.getyourgameonline.com/about/
I hope people who are near can come on out! Sorry for the advertising, just hoping to grow the community.
Also, I'm not sure what this forum's opinion on shameless plugs is, but there is a 1v1 Duel Commander tournament happening at Get Your Game On, in Ann Arbor, Michigan on August 23rd. Tournament starts at 12pm (Entry and prized TBD). Location info can be found here http://www.getyourgameonline.com/about/
I hope people who are near can come on out! Sorry for the advertising, just hoping to grow the community.
As thread overlord supreme, I say: shameless plugs for tournaments are A-okay! Plug away.
Also, I'm not sure what this forum's opinion on shameless plugs is, but there is a 1v1 Duel Commander tournament happening at Get Your Game On, in Ann Arbor, Michigan on August 23rd. Tournament starts at 12pm (Entry and prized TBD). Location info can be found here http://www.getyourgameonline.com/about/
I hope people who are near can come on out! Sorry for the advertising, just hoping to grow the community.
As thread overlord supreme, I say: shameless plugs for tournaments are A-okay! Plug away.
I'm a legcay player trying to understand this format, but everywhere I see there are different banlists, in some of them Sol Ring isn't banned and Emrakul is. And in other ones it's viceversa. Does the banlist change from 1v1 to Multiplayer?
So there are two formats: Commander and Duel Commander.
Commander is the original EDH. Their website is here. Sol Ring is legal in this format (mostly due to nostalgia/"cool plays"/multiplayer politics balancing) and Emrakul is not. When you see a side event at a GP or SCG Open, it typically played with this banlist and is usually multiplayer in nature (4-5 man pods). The cards on this ban list typically are abusive in multiplayer (Biorhythm or Emrakul), just broken in general (Black Lotus, Moxen), or very expensive since it would be an autoinclude (Library of Alexandria, Time Vault).
Duel Commander is an offshoot of normal Commander and was previously known as French EDH. Their website is here. Sol Ring (and most "good" fast mana) are banned and Emrakul is legal. Duel Commander events are typically by themselves although they do occur as side events in Europe for Bazaar of Moxen and other eternal-format tournaments. The cards on this ban list are just the generally broken cards (Lotus, Moxen) and specific cards and commanders that have proven to be over-the-top-dominant. They try to achieve balance between control, combo and aggro and its metagame and cards look a lot like Legacy as a result.
Hopefully that was useful.
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"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges." - Kamahl, Pit Fighter
To add on to that, the Commander/EDH banlist is the one officially supported by WotC and listed on their rules page on Wizards.com. Duel Commander's ruleset is not officially supported.
As organizers can pick which rulesets they wish enforced when doing tournaments that are not officially sanctioned- like commander events- you are likely to encounter the Duel Commander rules periodically if an event involves 1v1 commander play.
However you are just as likely to not end up playing by those rules- I've seen lots of local stores running 1v1 commander events that play by the EDH/Commander WotC rules.
The only real issue I've had with there being third party rules system like the Duel Commander one is that there are a lot of players whom believe that the DC rules are officially supported, and that any 1v1 commander game MUST play by the DC rules. Failure to do so has resulted in so much butthurt over the years. So. Much.
So if you're going into a commander game at a tournament, be sure to ask which rules they're using, because they're not always clear on that.
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cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
It is impossible to have Commander or Duel Commander to be a sanctioned event. It isn't because it is not popular enough - it's purely logistics.
For example, a typical SCG Open usually has anywhere between 7 and 10 rounds of play, each lasting 50 minutes in length. With control matches (usually) going to turns, players can expect each rounds to normally last around an hour, or 65 minutes. In addition, there are random deck-checks throughout the day as all players have been required to register their decklists. Judges have to sort the entire deck out, make sure it is legal, and present them back to the players with a time extension to their round (usually 5 to 10 minutes). So, around 10ish hours for the whole day.
If Duel Commander were to become sanctioned and at the same popularity as an event like an SCG Open:
1) Instead of 50 minute rounds, there are 70 minute rounds - every 3rd round artificially 'adds' a round to the typical timetable of a regular Open.
2) Matches that go to time also continue to add time to this.
3) Deckchecking in Duel Commander would be an absolute nightmare. Not only is it a singleton format (so you can't sort the cards) there are 99 of them in the deck! Checks would take nearly 15 to 20 minutes per round - again adding to the time each round would take.
It is sadly just not feasible to officially sanction a Duel Commander event.
It IS possible to have LGS get in with the Duel Commander crowd, though
Oh my, you run your DC events with only 55 minute rounds? Apparently many of us in the area are slow players then. Our tournaments have always ran with 70 minute rounds and even then people still go to time!
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
Modern
No clue
RIP Twin
MTGS Olde Name:
Hruen (apparently it was taken, probably by me about 10 years ago.........)
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
Understandable, but that's more of a scummy player issue than the card. I mean, it's perfectly healthy in the other similarly powered formats.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
My counter is that it doesn't seem to be an issue in Legacy, at least in the vast vast majority of competitive events I have seen. The type of player who will go out of his away to abuse one card will do it for others.
That being said, I wouldn't argue too hard for it to be legal outside of I don't think the problem actually exists and it sets a potentially bad precedent.
top i agree, as long as the reason is the "goes in any deck". i never saw the time issue, as slow play is applyable everywhere.
But it happens more often than not. Top legal means = people will tutor for it, spin it, and think about what they want. Add that to shuffling with 100 cards. I don't mind shuffling 100 cards and do at a reasonable pace but you hear how people can't shuffle 100 cards more often than not.
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
Totally agree on Crucible. It's strong in stax decks but it's really not that strong in many other decks. Honestly, it's meh in control decks now that Aggro decks are having a field day with the Oloro banning. Good time to unban it. Not as much on Top.
Also, I'm not sure what this forum's opinion on shameless plugs is, but there is a 1v1 Duel Commander tournament happening at Get Your Game On, in Ann Arbor, Michigan on August 23rd. Tournament starts at 12pm (Entry and prized TBD). Location info can be found here http://www.getyourgameonline.com/about/
I hope people who are near can come on out! Sorry for the advertising, just hoping to grow the community.
As thread overlord supreme, I say: shameless plugs for tournaments are A-okay! Plug away.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Riley you should come out and play with us B)
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
Have you considered taking a horse-drawn carriage?
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
Commander is the original EDH. Their website is here. Sol Ring is legal in this format (mostly due to nostalgia/"cool plays"/multiplayer politics balancing) and Emrakul is not. When you see a side event at a GP or SCG Open, it typically played with this banlist and is usually multiplayer in nature (4-5 man pods). The cards on this ban list typically are abusive in multiplayer (Biorhythm or Emrakul), just broken in general (Black Lotus, Moxen), or very expensive since it would be an autoinclude (Library of Alexandria, Time Vault).
Duel Commander is an offshoot of normal Commander and was previously known as French EDH. Their website is here. Sol Ring (and most "good" fast mana) are banned and Emrakul is legal. Duel Commander events are typically by themselves although they do occur as side events in Europe for Bazaar of Moxen and other eternal-format tournaments. The cards on this ban list are just the generally broken cards (Lotus, Moxen) and specific cards and commanders that have proven to be over-the-top-dominant. They try to achieve balance between control, combo and aggro and its metagame and cards look a lot like Legacy as a result.
Hopefully that was useful.
As organizers can pick which rulesets they wish enforced when doing tournaments that are not officially sanctioned- like commander events- you are likely to encounter the Duel Commander rules periodically if an event involves 1v1 commander play.
However you are just as likely to not end up playing by those rules- I've seen lots of local stores running 1v1 commander events that play by the EDH/Commander WotC rules.
The only real issue I've had with there being third party rules system like the Duel Commander one is that there are a lot of players whom believe that the DC rules are officially supported, and that any 1v1 commander game MUST play by the DC rules. Failure to do so has resulted in so much butthurt over the years. So. Much.
So if you're going into a commander game at a tournament, be sure to ask which rules they're using, because they're not always clear on that.