how does the deck fair when recovering from mass removal, say a turn 5-6 Wrath of God, does your deck have many ways to recover or prevent those attacks?
how does the deck fair when recovering from mass removal, say a turn 5-6 Wrath of God, does your deck have many ways to recover or prevent those attacks?
Tutorable counterspells (ie Mystic Snake/Venser) and/or multiple bounce effects to save my important pieces. It is always tempting to try to combo out as fast as conceivably possible, but I try to play the deck rather conservatively. If I suspect a Wrath or otherwise, I will hold off until I have an answer to it.
Tutorable counterspells (ie Mystic Snake/Venser) and/or multiple bounce effects to save my important pieces. It is always tempting to try to combo out as fast as conceivably possible, but I try to play the deck rather conservatively. If I suspect a Wrath or otherwise, I will hold off until I have an answer to it.
yes that's how i play my vig deck as well, i try to play it slow, just mana accel early turns, then make snake my first tutor target, and slowly build a lock with that. I haven't played much of EDH but to me Momir Vig is the best combination of a fun and powerful general I have ever played!
True that! Though I usually go Seedborn Muse first which in turn tutors for Mystic Snake. The best part is, your opponent will often think that they are safe since the Snake is on top of your library, until you cycle a land or blow up Mind Stone in response to a spell and proceed to counter it.
True that! Though I usually go Seedborn Muse first which in turn tutors for Mystic Snake. The best part is, your opponent will often think that they are safe since the Snake is on top of your library, until you cycle a land or blow up Mind Stone in response to a spell and proceed to counter it.
wow you're right that is real smart, I need to add some cycle lands to my sucker
What do you think of running the arcanis and mind over matter combo? Also I noticed you don't run any timewalk effects, are they simply win more cards? or do they disrupt the synergy to be effective? I am interested in building a mormir vig EDH deck, but there are so many different variations. Is mormir vig really that flexible? or is it entirely based on how you would like the deck to play?
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I would say that Momir Vig will play however you design the deck to play. I've seen many succesful, albeit, different Momir Vig decks over the course of my time playing him. He can force aggro, control, combo, enhance tribal themes (slivers), or just be a figurehead for a UG aggro/control deck. That's part of the beauty of him, imo, that he is so versatile. There is not just one way to play the deck, and all versions have their own inherent strenghts and weaknesses (as well as some overlap). However, I tend to feel that my version, without sounding entirely conceited, is one of the best out there. Granted, there are always improvements to be made, and my version is no exception.
To answer your question, no, I would not advise trying to run the Arcanis + MoM combo, nor do I feel that Time Walk effects are an absolute for this deck. The way I see it, untapping every turn ala Seedborn Muse is almost as substantial as taking an extra turn as far as this deck is concerned. Don't get me wrong, if you have an open slot in your deck, it wouldn't hurt to throw in a Time Warp/Temporal Manipulation/Time Stretch, etc., but honestly I have never played a game where I said to myself, "gee, if only i had an extra turn right now". But that's just me.
Thank-you for the excellent response, I have been looking for a fun and flexible general. Based off what you said, Mormir vig seems to offer the option of having a radically new deck if you get bored with it.... you have convinced me to make a mormir vig EDH sir. With your knowledge you should make a thread dedicated to the different types of mormir vig strategies and play styles.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Liquid Water from my momir vig deck's experience I highly reccomend the mind over matter and Arcanis combo. If you run Ethereal Usher then you can tutor for both Arcanis and the mind with vig out. Being able to draw as many cards as you want whenever you want? It has never in my experience been a bad thing in my deck. Also unlimited cards to throw into mind over matter helps to tap out any targetable creature that tries to attack you.
But like miscalculatedrisk says all momir vig decks are different, all I can say is Mind Over Matter and Arcanis with seedborn is the engine that makes my deck go-for example my main control element is recurring mystic snake with crystal shard to keep returning it to my hand. Assuming I have the mana, which I do because of mana reflection, i will be able to counter everything with the snake and mind over matter untapping shard.
Just build the deck in you style, imo green and blue is one of the most powerful color combos, seedborn muse is control magics best friend
Finally updated my decklist with my Zendikar changes and added a changelog to the OP so i can keep record of my changes and you can see the deck evolve. It is playing incredibly consistently (even moreso than before) these days and I love the additions thus far. I've been getting a lot of playtesting in and the only downside is that people are really starting to feel threatened by Vig in my playgroup after observing his ability to wreak havoc on the gamestate. You know people respect the power of the deck when in a four-way match between Vig (myself), Rofellos, Sharuum, and Lorthos, you are the primary target, even when you may or may not have the best board position. Nonetheless I still enjoy playing him.
On a sidenote, I really want to embrace my inner Timmy and add a Rite of Replication to the deck. I've seen it in action within my group and the card is a total blowout when it lands and I can't imagine a better deck to foster its potential.
I highly approve of those changes, although I'm not sure about the Mindbreak Trap. That's a meta call, though. If you have a lot of multi-spell combos or Storm/Cascade shenanigans in your meta, then you should play it.
As soon as I get one, Rite of Replication is going straight into my Momir Vig deck. Hey look, now I have six Woodfall Primuses/Tradewind Riders/Tidespout Tyrants. GG.
Hey look, now I have six Woodfall Primuses/Tradewind Riders/Tidespout Tyrants. GG.
...or Eternal Witnesses and do it all over again ;). I saw a Sharuum deck do it on a Solemn Simulacrum which creates such a drastic increase in CA it is absurd, kinda makes me want to put him back in the deck too.
Your list has inspired me to look into him as a multiplayer general. I would personally run stronger individual multiplayer cards like: Glen-elendra Archmage, Genesis, Arcanis. It would be helpful to post a list without your group's metagame. Otherwise I'll take your primer and work on a list that I'm conjuring up. I like the basis of your deck and I think if tweaked, could be a devastating deck to play against.
I'm surprised there's no spitting Image/Life from the Loam engine for this deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I like designing decks and I am primarily a control player. Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
While Spitting Image and Life from the Loam are fine cards by themselves and moreso together, this deck cannot afford such slow-roll cards like Spitting Image. If you are planning on copying your own cards, you have plenty of inexpensive bounce mechanics to replay anything you want (thus getting the effect a second time), and if you want your opponents' stuff why not gain control of it via Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation instead of copying it (which may be better only in the case of legendary creatures)? Loam is good but in this deck Tilling Treefolk is simply better with or without Spitting Image since it can be tutored for, act as a tutor itself, be potentially flashed, and potentially free. Again, the bounce this deck allows is just as, if not more, relevant than the dredge from a replayability standpoint.
At this point I should probably mention that my deck is not tuned for multiplayer, though it does a fine job in that arena. I'm not sure whether or not you were assuming if it was? I prefer playing duels with it and that is where this deck really shines. I would consider Glen Elendra Archmage for this list but it is actually surprisingly tight atm and more often than not they are not really needed. Admittedly I was really surprised at how well this deck continues to function without Genesis, to the point of where I ultimately removed him from the list altogether. Arcanis is, in my opinion, a little bit slow for this deck, especially since you want cards with abilities that affect the gamstate on an immediate basis (CIP/ETB abilities) rather than having to wait a turn for tap abilities.
As far as Lotus Cobra is concerned, he hasn't been in for very long so I can't give you an accurate portrayal at this point. But from what I have seen thus far, he is good enough to make the cut. He is basically Birds #2 + a potential upgrade. Early acceleration is key to this deck's success and the cobra does a fine job at providing it.
Something I have learned from playing this deck is that big late-game acceleration (such as Gilded Lotus) is not as instrumental to this decks success as the quicker accelerants such as Mind Stone or Grim Monolith. If you look at the Captain Sisay thread by Surging Chaos, both Surging Chaos and Khymera noticed a similar trend with their decks, and the same applies here. Granted, this does not have nearly as many accelerants as theirs, but I have found it to work out nicely. Ideally you want to be in the position to drop Momir Vig safely by turn 5 or sooner and fully realize your tutoring potential the turn after. That is not to say you will win by that turn by any means, but that you will have a big enough toolbox at your disposal to have an answer for practically anything your opponents will toss out at you.
How important is it to get out Tidespout Tyrant? I know that the deck works with Equilibrium very well. Is there a disruption pacakage besides counterspells to deal with more troublesome decks?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I like designing decks and I am primarily a control player. Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
Tidespout Tyrant is more or less the proverbial "icing on the cake". He is my win condition of choice in the deck because he also doubles as an enabler on your part in a pinch. Typically he is one of the last pieces that I will fetch once I have established a lock or have gone infinite and its usually not long afterwards that the opponent sees what is in the works and scoops them up.
Equilibrium does work quite well as does Cloudstone Curio. They both serve virtually the same purpose but the redundancy helps to improve the consistency of the deck. Cloudstone, admittedly, is my enabler of choice since you don't have to invest additional mana into it; but Equilibrium works wonders as a defensive card in addition to helping you combo out. Again, Tidespout Tyrant works too but he won't see play until much later, at which point he is more often than not just targetting your opponent's permanents.
As you can probably tell this deck does not have a cohesive "disruption package" other than the counterspells. But what it does have is a vast toolbox of utility creatures to provide you a (tutorable) answer to virtually any predicament. You will notice both bounce and control magic effects for removal, deathtouch for combat tricks, and some that have more specific applications like Riftsweeper and Loaming Shaman for suspend and reanimation strategies respectively.
It has done decently well but it is hard to say since so much of it depends on the hand that Rofellos draws into. If rofellos draws into one of its many combos right off the bat it is no contest. It should come as no surprise that Rofellos is much much faster than than this deck generally but I have found that Momir Vig can put up a fight since for the most part I am not concerned about playing around anything (no counters, etc.) and if I get Vig out fast enough I can typically toolbox whatever I need to stay in the game. Usually if I can get through the first 6-7 turns without being pummeled the game will slowly start to creep back in my favor.
Sidenote: I apologize for the delay in getting the primer up in the OP. I have been super busy and what I have of the primer is getting exceptionally long...I will try to have it up ASAP, I haven't forgotten.
I'm not big on Liege or Overbeing because not only are they relatively expensive, but they don't give me any CIP/ETB effects. Additionally, Liege doesn't untap all permanents like Seedborn Muse so it is distinctly worse and the creature pump is usually irrelevant (at least in regards to how I play the deck).
Slippery bogle could be good in here as a very low cost green creature. I'd put it in over elvish visionary at least. Maybe consider Pygmy hippo v U decks too
Elvish Visionary isn't in the deck anymore. If you are looking for a current decklist, consult the OP. That is the true version. Slippery Bogle is ok, but I want my UG creatures to do something so they serve a purpose even if Vig isn't on the field. Another difference maker is that I will never tutor for Bogle since he is outclassed by everything else in the UG suite...or pretty much any other color suite for that matter.
Pygmy hippo is a decent card, but I don't like the combat requirement. I understand that Trygon Predator also has a combat requirement but I find, especially in my "meta", that he is always relevant. I had the hippo in my original version, prior to the OP even, and he was sadly always lacking. Additionally post M10 since there is no mana burn your opponent can tap out in response to your attack to halt your efforts. True, this can help in permission matchups but overall it is a bit narrow.
Tutorable counterspells (ie Mystic Snake/Venser) and/or multiple bounce effects to save my important pieces. It is always tempting to try to combo out as fast as conceivably possible, but I try to play the deck rather conservatively. If I suspect a Wrath or otherwise, I will hold off until I have an answer to it.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
yes that's how i play my vig deck as well, i try to play it slow, just mana accel early turns, then make snake my first tutor target, and slowly build a lock with that. I haven't played much of EDH but to me Momir Vig is the best combination of a fun and powerful general I have ever played!
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
wow you're right that is real smart, I need to add some cycle lands to my sucker
To answer your question, no, I would not advise trying to run the Arcanis + MoM combo, nor do I feel that Time Walk effects are an absolute for this deck. The way I see it, untapping every turn ala Seedborn Muse is almost as substantial as taking an extra turn as far as this deck is concerned. Don't get me wrong, if you have an open slot in your deck, it wouldn't hurt to throw in a Time Warp/Temporal Manipulation/Time Stretch, etc., but honestly I have never played a game where I said to myself, "gee, if only i had an extra turn right now". But that's just me.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
But like miscalculatedrisk says all momir vig decks are different, all I can say is Mind Over Matter and Arcanis with seedborn is the engine that makes my deck go-for example my main control element is recurring mystic snake with crystal shard to keep returning it to my hand. Assuming I have the mana, which I do because of mana reflection, i will be able to counter everything with the snake and mind over matter untapping shard.
Just build the deck in you style, imo green and blue is one of the most powerful color combos, seedborn muse is control magics best friend
here's my momir vig, i think all momir vig decks are pretty similar but just so you know this deck runs real smooth and is real consistent.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=184067
I think all momir decks are, have fun with this guy
On a sidenote, I really want to embrace my inner Timmy and add a Rite of Replication to the deck. I've seen it in action within my group and the card is a total blowout when it lands and I can't imagine a better deck to foster its potential.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
As soon as I get one, Rite of Replication is going straight into my Momir Vig deck. Hey look, now I have six Woodfall Primuses/Tradewind Riders/Tidespout Tyrants. GG.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
...or Eternal Witnesses and do it all over again ;). I saw a Sharuum deck do it on a Solemn Simulacrum which creates such a drastic increase in CA it is absurd, kinda makes me want to put him back in the deck too.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
I'm surprised there's no spitting Image/Life from the Loam engine for this deck.
Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
VERY CHEAP LEGACY SALE (priced to move before April 09!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8172551#post8172551
While Spitting Image and Life from the Loam are fine cards by themselves and moreso together, this deck cannot afford such slow-roll cards like Spitting Image. If you are planning on copying your own cards, you have plenty of inexpensive bounce mechanics to replay anything you want (thus getting the effect a second time), and if you want your opponents' stuff why not gain control of it via Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation instead of copying it (which may be better only in the case of legendary creatures)? Loam is good but in this deck Tilling Treefolk is simply better with or without Spitting Image since it can be tutored for, act as a tutor itself, be potentially flashed, and potentially free. Again, the bounce this deck allows is just as, if not more, relevant than the dredge from a replayability standpoint.
At this point I should probably mention that my deck is not tuned for multiplayer, though it does a fine job in that arena. I'm not sure whether or not you were assuming if it was? I prefer playing duels with it and that is where this deck really shines. I would consider Glen Elendra Archmage for this list but it is actually surprisingly tight atm and more often than not they are not really needed. Admittedly I was really surprised at how well this deck continues to function without Genesis, to the point of where I ultimately removed him from the list altogether. Arcanis is, in my opinion, a little bit slow for this deck, especially since you want cards with abilities that affect the gamstate on an immediate basis (CIP/ETB abilities) rather than having to wait a turn for tap abilities.
As far as Lotus Cobra is concerned, he hasn't been in for very long so I can't give you an accurate portrayal at this point. But from what I have seen thus far, he is good enough to make the cut. He is basically Birds #2 + a potential upgrade. Early acceleration is key to this deck's success and the cobra does a fine job at providing it.
Something I have learned from playing this deck is that big late-game acceleration (such as Gilded Lotus) is not as instrumental to this decks success as the quicker accelerants such as Mind Stone or Grim Monolith. If you look at the Captain Sisay thread by Surging Chaos, both Surging Chaos and Khymera noticed a similar trend with their decks, and the same applies here. Granted, this does not have nearly as many accelerants as theirs, but I have found it to work out nicely. Ideally you want to be in the position to drop Momir Vig safely by turn 5 or sooner and fully realize your tutoring potential the turn after. That is not to say you will win by that turn by any means, but that you will have a big enough toolbox at your disposal to have an answer for practically anything your opponents will toss out at you.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
VERY CHEAP LEGACY SALE (priced to move before April 09!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8172551#post8172551
Equilibrium does work quite well as does Cloudstone Curio. They both serve virtually the same purpose but the redundancy helps to improve the consistency of the deck. Cloudstone, admittedly, is my enabler of choice since you don't have to invest additional mana into it; but Equilibrium works wonders as a defensive card in addition to helping you combo out. Again, Tidespout Tyrant works too but he won't see play until much later, at which point he is more often than not just targetting your opponent's permanents.
As you can probably tell this deck does not have a cohesive "disruption package" other than the counterspells. But what it does have is a vast toolbox of utility creatures to provide you a (tutorable) answer to virtually any predicament. You will notice both bounce and control magic effects for removal, deathtouch for combat tricks, and some that have more specific applications like Riftsweeper and Loaming Shaman for suspend and reanimation strategies respectively.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Great looking list btw.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Sidenote: I apologize for the delay in getting the primer up in the OP. I have been super busy and what I have of the primer is getting exceptionally long...I will try to have it up ASAP, I haven't forgotten.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Bounce effects like Stampeding Wildebeests, Stampeding Serow, and Sunken Hope can be good. But they are horrible if you are behind. I would rather have control of when and where my bounces occur with something like Crystal Shard or Tradewind Rider instead.
In a more aggro-centric version of Momir Vig, the Stampeding creatures and Murkfiend Liege would probably be rather good. Combo Control...not so much.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Trades
http://www.cashpirate.com/members/register.php?ref=Malcolmbw
make money for free online.
Looking for Karakas, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Aether Vials and more
Pygmy hippo is a decent card, but I don't like the combat requirement. I understand that Trygon Predator also has a combat requirement but I find, especially in my "meta", that he is always relevant. I had the hippo in my original version, prior to the OP even, and he was sadly always lacking. Additionally post M10 since there is no mana burn your opponent can tap out in response to your attack to halt your efforts. True, this can help in permission matchups but overall it is a bit narrow.
Current EDH Decks:
G Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GU Momir Vig, Simic Visionary