The merging between the two banlists, tried more than a year ago, failed, mainly because it was extremely difficult to discuss with so many different personalities and a so wide range of opinions. That was a sad story, I had really believed in it.
But finally, I am quite satisfied of how it turned out, duelcommander.com's list being used both on Cockatrice and in real life tournaments.
The link I posted was to the duelcommander list. As they never call it the french banlist on the site I see no reason to use that name, and it's certainly a lot different from the french banlist from the first post in this thread and the lists you will see if you google 'EDH french banlist'. If people are referring to the duelcommander list when they say "french banlist" I see your point, either way that list is the one to use. People should stop saying "french banlist" and say "duelcommander rules" or simply "1on1 rules".
I really hope the french banlist doesn't become the official banlist for 1v1 games because I feel they have an incorrect understanding of a cards power level and ban certain cards with little reasoning and no explanation. There's still several backbreaking cards that exist as elephants in the room that are never dealt with due to either flagrant ignorance of the true power level they have or a lack of empathy due to these cards being so well used.
But bitterblossom so broken it needs to be banned. But don't worry about demonic tutor, mystical tutor, survival of the fittest, Jitte, etc. al, these cards are just fine.
I really hope the french banlist doesn't become the official banlist for 1v1 games because I feel they have an incorrect understanding of a cards power level and ban certain cards with little reasoning and no explanation. There's still several backbreaking cards that exist as elephants in the room that are never dealt with due to either flagrant ignorance of the true power level they have or a lack of empathy due to these cards being so well used.
But bitterblossom so broken it needs to be banned. But don't worry about demonic tutor, mystical tutor, survival of the fittest, Jitte, etc. al, these cards are just fine.
The cards you talk about aren't really elephants in the room, the only one remotely close to being banworthy is Survival. It's a very swingy card, enchantment removal is kind of rare (and doesn't always help) and once it hits play the game just gets out of control so quickly. Still, it isn't played a whole lot in competitive play as you have to build around it and there's no way to get it reliably.
Agree that Bitterblossom shouldn't be banned, and it will probably be unbanned eventually. Give them some time, they don't want to make too drastic changes too quickly.
EDIT: Also, I'm not sure what you think the alternative is. The multiplayer banlist is complete garbage for any kind of competitive play and they have no plans to change that. The 1on1 rules council is a lot more open to ideas, if you want more specific explanations on why cards are banned or want to suggest additional bannings just send them an email or ask in forums.
I really hope the french banlist doesn't become the official banlist for 1v1 games because I feel they have an incorrect understanding of a cards power level and ban certain cards with little reasoning and no explanation. There's still several backbreaking cards that exist as elephants in the room that are never dealt with due to either flagrant ignorance of the true power level they have or a lack of empathy due to these cards being so well used.
But bitterblossom so broken it needs to be banned. But don't worry about demonic tutor, mystical tutor, survival of the fittest, Jitte, etc. al, these cards are just fine.
While I mostly like the French banlist options, I am more of the opinion that 1v1 commander should use the Legacy banlist. That would seem to have the most stability.
Hey, maybe I should convince my playgroup to do that...
I've been playing EDH competitively for some time now, and I really think Mind Over Matter has no business being legal. It combos with almost anything that creates card-advantage and is never a fun card to play with or against
Meh, Mind Over Matter isn't even really played. So much of the format trumps Azami that the deck is borderline non-existant in french. There will always be multiplayer banlist adopters of the deck but it's not very french oriented.
Aggro in commander means trying to beat down the 40 (30) life as fast as possible. Changing starting life total won't cripple aggro decks. It just changes the selection of creatures you need to fulfill the goal.
Yes, changing the life total will cripple aggro. Instead of a highly agressive Goblin Guide being quite good, or even Delver of Secrets in some blue decks... you get less bang for your buck and gives control more time to stabilize and kill you. Instead of using guide, are you advocating using Slash Panther?
Adding extra lives that aggro needs to get through will make it that much less viable. What's the point in playing aggro if you know control can stabilize every time? 30 life is perfect, as far as i'm concerned.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
This thread is long-defunct and all general 1v1 discussion has shifted over to the following stickied thread, which now focuses on French/Duel Commander:
yay edric is banned=)
i faced him many times and it was painful, my opponent refilled his hand with counters and my sharrum deck was hanging on the ropes.
Question about 1v1 Commander Rules: Would an effect that sends a Commander to the top of someone's library (i.e. Lapse of Certainty, Grasp of Phantoms,...) work to send the Commander to the top of the library without allowing the player the choice of sending it to the Command Zone instead?
The rules state: in addition to the ability to put the Commander back into the Command Zone if it would go to the graveyard or be exiled, you may do so also if it would be put into your library.
Does the "on top of" your library state count as an "into" your library state for this ruling?
The rule seems to be aimed at stifling tuck effects that send Commanders to the bottom of libraries (Terminus, Condemn...) or other shuffle-in effects (Unravel the Aether,...) so the Commanders wouldn't remain irretrievable without a tutor effect. An effect that sends a Commander to the top of a library doesn't leave it irretrievable (without the assistance of other spells to stifle draw steps (Fatigue), steal cards drawn (Notion Thief), or cause a player to shuffle a library(Boggart Forager)). The "on top of" your library effect doesn't one-off remove a Commander from play, but allows it to be retrieved next draw via the natural flow of the game. The fact that a combo would be needed (and a strained, conditional one at that) to make a Commander irretrievable seems no less an unfair exploitation of the rules that would the spell Control Magic, which would require a spell to either disenchant the enchantment or otherwise deal with the creature itself.
And to answer your question, I believe an effect like Memory Lapse would give the player the choice to send it to command zone or to put it on top of his or her library. If they make that choice and fall victim to the surprise follow-up Soldier of Fortune + Lightning Greaves, then that's simply a risk they accepted.
EDIT: If you want to treat the tops of libraries different from the bottoms, then what about a card like Oust? Unexpectedly Absent for X=0 vs X=1? I'd just as soon keep it simple.
The link I posted was to the duelcommander list. As they never call it the french banlist on the site I see no reason to use that name, and it's certainly a lot different from the french banlist from the first post in this thread and the lists you will see if you google 'EDH french banlist'. If people are referring to the duelcommander list when they say "french banlist" I see your point, either way that list is the one to use. People should stop saying "french banlist" and say "duelcommander rules" or simply "1on1 rules".
But bitterblossom so broken it needs to be banned. But don't worry about demonic tutor, mystical tutor, survival of the fittest, Jitte, etc. al, these cards are just fine.
The cards you talk about aren't really elephants in the room, the only one remotely close to being banworthy is Survival. It's a very swingy card, enchantment removal is kind of rare (and doesn't always help) and once it hits play the game just gets out of control so quickly. Still, it isn't played a whole lot in competitive play as you have to build around it and there's no way to get it reliably.
Agree that Bitterblossom shouldn't be banned, and it will probably be unbanned eventually. Give them some time, they don't want to make too drastic changes too quickly.
EDIT: Also, I'm not sure what you think the alternative is. The multiplayer banlist is complete garbage for any kind of competitive play and they have no plans to change that. The 1on1 rules council is a lot more open to ideas, if you want more specific explanations on why cards are banned or want to suggest additional bannings just send them an email or ask in forums.
While I mostly like the French banlist options, I am more of the opinion that 1v1 commander should use the Legacy banlist. That would seem to have the most stability.
Hey, maybe I should convince my playgroup to do that...
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I guess you could use it to lock the board after drawing a new hand.. but that's a rather inneficient way to go.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Yes, changing the life total will cripple aggro. Instead of a highly agressive Goblin Guide being quite good, or even Delver of Secrets in some blue decks... you get less bang for your buck and gives control more time to stabilize and kill you. Instead of using guide, are you advocating using Slash Panther?
Adding extra lives that aggro needs to get through will make it that much less viable. What's the point in playing aggro if you know control can stabilize every time? 30 life is perfect, as far as i'm concerned.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
http://duelcommander.com/2012/09/septembre-20th-banlist-update/
Yes, thank you. =P
This thread is long-defunct and all general 1v1 discussion has shifted over to the following stickied thread, which now focuses on French/Duel Commander:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=389492
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
i faced him many times and it was painful, my opponent refilled his hand with counters and my sharrum deck was hanging on the ropes.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
The rules state: in addition to the ability to put the Commander back into the Command Zone if it would go to the graveyard or be exiled, you may do so also if it would be put into your library.
Does the "on top of" your library state count as an "into" your library state for this ruling?
The rule seems to be aimed at stifling tuck effects that send Commanders to the bottom of libraries (Terminus, Condemn...) or other shuffle-in effects (Unravel the Aether,...) so the Commanders wouldn't remain irretrievable without a tutor effect. An effect that sends a Commander to the top of a library doesn't leave it irretrievable (without the assistance of other spells to stifle draw steps (Fatigue), steal cards drawn (Notion Thief), or cause a player to shuffle a library(Boggart Forager)). The "on top of" your library effect doesn't one-off remove a Commander from play, but allows it to be retrieved next draw via the natural flow of the game. The fact that a combo would be needed (and a strained, conditional one at that) to make a Commander irretrievable seems no less an unfair exploitation of the rules that would the spell Control Magic, which would require a spell to either disenchant the enchantment or otherwise deal with the creature itself.
Thoughts?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/forum-1-vs-1-commander-decklists/206334-aka-french-mega-thread-rules-decks-to-beat-and
And to answer your question, I believe an effect like Memory Lapse would give the player the choice to send it to command zone or to put it on top of his or her library. If they make that choice and fall victim to the surprise follow-up Soldier of Fortune + Lightning Greaves, then that's simply a risk they accepted.
EDIT: If you want to treat the tops of libraries different from the bottoms, then what about a card like Oust? Unexpectedly Absent for X=0 vs X=1? I'd just as soon keep it simple.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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