Added my Elemental Blitz-winning Oona, Queen of the Fae list + commentary (initial idea by urielxvi, extensively modified by me). Hope you like it.
I'm glad you're enjoying my Sharuum list, MCR. I think it's beautiful too.
You're right that Masticore wouldn't be included if he didn't let you discard. He's useful in a wide range of situations--as a discard outlet and as persistent removal. Though he's not incredibly powerful like all of my other 4+ mana artifacts, he makes the cut because he's very good against some of our hardest matchups. Against both Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and Vendilion Clique, two of the most dominating decks in 1v1, he's one of the best possible cards to have, and makes a huge impact on those games. He's also quite solid against most other strategies that rely on a cheap general. Masticore tends to be pretty lackluster against bad decks...but you should be easily beating those anyways. He's really good against the best decks, so he gets to stay.
I can't give you hard-and-fast rules for tutoring/Intuition piles, because it really can vary a lot based on the game state. I would advise against going too aggressively for a combo though--it's definitely not always the right choice. I frequently choose to go for Mindslaver or Magister Sphinx rather than setting up a combo I can't use immediately--I'll take a powerful effect now instead of telegraphing that I'm going to combo off next turn.
The only fairly consistent tutoring rule I can give you is "mana first." Probably 4/5 times, my first tutor is for Mana Crypt or Sol Ring (or occasionally for Artificer's Intuition if I have a particularly top-heavy hand and know I'm going to need both). Frequently, my second tutor is for the other one, and hopefully I can find Tolarian Academy after that. I'll usually tutor for fast mana until I have about 8-10 mana available, at which point I'll start going for combos, disruption, or just particularly relevant artifacts. Intuition can usually get you a combo AND the most relevant artifact, so it's a frequent tutor target if I can find it efficiently. What I mean by that is that I'll tutor for Intuition if 1) there's nothing else I need immediately and 2) I have enough mana to use it without wasting a turn.
My most common Intuition pile is probably Sculpting Steel, Extractor Demon, Mindslaver(if Sharuum isn't in play or your graveyard needs stocking)/Momentary Blink(if she is or your graveyard has good artifacts already). "Mana Artifact" usually doesn't work that well as the third card, because most people will just give you Extractor Demon. May as well get something else that will be useful in your graveyard. Mindslaver, Momentary Blink, 2nd Awesome Artifact is also a back-breaking Intuition pile in most situations. If it's possible to get a Mindslaver activation right after playing Intuition (and it frequently is), that's usually the right choice.
Other than that...get Memory Jar if you're flush with mana but low on cards. Get Mishra's Helix if you can lock up the game with it (it's a 1-card combo, in the right situation). Get Sundering Titan if your opponent is 5-color or particularly vulnerable. Get Memnarch if you're facing a lot of artifacts. Get Salvaging Station against control if the game is going to come down to attrition/card advantage. Get Darksteel Forge if you're concerned about a sweeper (especially against white decks). I think that pretty much covers it.
With enough practice, you'll find that in any situation, there's probably at least one card you could get that is staggeringly good for that situation. It's just a matter of recognizing what that card is. Sometimes you have to figure out what your opponent's "out" against you is, and play to mitigate that out.
Regarding Imperial Seal and Mishra's Workshop, don't worry overly much about replacing them with similar cards. The cards in this deck are chosen because they're the best cards--almost all of them either do something unique or are just the most efficient in their category. Tutors and fast mana are both important, but they're only worth playing as long as they're good. Mishra's Workshop really can't be effectively replaced--every remotely comparable card is already in the deck. Just swap it for another basic land or perhaps for Voltaic Key, depending on your tastes--I never liked the Key, though I tested it extensively, but some people swear by it.
As for Imperial Seal, if you want to replace it with another tutor, Fabricate is a reasonable option. I might suggest trying out Entomb instead though--it's a little less versatile, but significantly more efficient/powerful. I'm probably going to integrate it into my list, in fact, though not in place of Imperial Seal. Don't feel obligated to replace Imperial Seal with a tutor though--the deck would work perfectly fine with 1 less tutor. You could replace it with whatever card you want to try out.
When playing against permission decks, I don't really change my strategy appreciably. You play the same game, you just do it more carefully. Permission and most removal really isn't much of a problem with this deck--it slows you down, but it doesn't actually stop you. Permission decks can't afford to counter all your mana artifacts, so just keep playing lands and replaying Sharuum and you can exhaust them pretty quickly (this may not work against an optimized Vendilion Clique deck, but Vendilion Clique decks are ****ing broken in 1v1, so they don't count). Control decks like this can slow you down, but they don't win quickly--and as soon as they stumble (which they inevitably do), you can immediately do very unfair things.
Also keep in mind that Bitter Ordeal is uncounterable by most things, and is played after the Sculpting Steel loop. Sometimes people will let you "combo" if you don't have an apparent win condition, and then you can blow them out with Bitter Ordeal.
Jace 2.0 is a fairly recent addition to this deck (obviously). He has no particular synergy, but is in here on the grounds that he's good in every format (and I think particularly good in EDH), so he's probably good here. He's by far the most untested card in the deck, but he's been alright so far. I could definitely see cutting him if I really wanted to make room for something else, but there actually aren't very many other cards that are strong enough to make the cut in this deck. He's good, but not important (unlike just about every other card, it's true).
I actually play the exact same deck in multiplayer, and am very successful with it. It could probably be optimized a little bit more for multiplayer, but there's no real need (it's still probably more powerful than any other deck at the table...). I wouldn't bother with Disciple of the Vault, which is quite fragile and unnecessary, even in 1v1. Bitter Ordeal and Extractor Demon can still mill the whole table. Glassdust Hulk is a little weaker, but it can still kill the most threatening person (and its burden on the deck is essentially nil, due to its cycling).
If I were to make changes for multiplayer, I'd probably add Hallowed Burial and Thada Adel, Acquisitor (assuming most people in your group play Sol Ring and/or Mana Crypt). Hallowed Burial is a fantastic problem solver in this format (Decree of Pain only just barely beat it out in my list). Thada Adel is a little too fragile/narrow for 1v1, but is positively insane at a competitive multiplayer table, especially considering how vital Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are to this deck. To make room for those, I'd probably cut Mishra's Helix (significantly worse in multiplayer) and Transmute Artifact. Cutting the Helm/Leyline combo would also be a reasonable decision for multiplayer games.
(And yes, you have to pay 1 for Helm of Obedience to trigger the combo. Mana Vault alone can still make for a turn 2 kill if you're lucky enough to start with the pieces...scary stuff.)
For the curious, the cards which are closest to making the cut in the Sharuum deck right now are Entomb, Mind Twist, and Scroll Rack. I've tested all of these in the past, but they could easily find their way into the deck again. I'm also toying with the idea of squeezing in the little package of Reito Lantern/Tunnel Vision/Open the Vaults for one combo and one pseudo-combo (Reito Lantern + Tunnel Vision is usually lethal, whereas Tunnel Vision on yourself for Open the Vaults is hilarious and sometimes spectacular). However, the second combo is really slow, and none of the cards are quite good enough on their own, so they probably won't make it (if Reito Lantern cost 1, I would play it...that's how important cogs are). It might still be worth testing though.
Hope that's helpful. I should just make a full primer.
So yes, Oona is up. Sorry for the very slow rate of additions--I've been very busy, and I'm also starting to run out of decks that I feel are unique enough and competitive enough to be added. You can still expect LennonMarx's Horde of Notions storm deck very soon, as well as Hephlathio's Wort, the Raidmother deck...maybe a Wort, Boggart Auntie tribal aggro/combo deck too. Also a Scion of the Ur-Dragon combo deck, when I get it where I want it. And don't forget Evergreen's Iname!
Wow Khymera, I think you pretty much just wrote the primer right there.
Thanks so much for the thorough response. The more I play the deck, the more I'm beginning to see the subtle interactions. I also don't tutor aggressively for combos anymore (as you've suggested), cause the deck is so dense with threats that you can just stumble over any small synergy and probably blow your opponent out of the water (I managed to destroy half of a Brion player's lands on turn 6 by using Blink / Staff with a Sundering Titan).
Also grats on Oona, and I am looking forward to the updates (particularly Evergreen's :D).
Khymera, you always bring me the best violence. And by that, I mean information.
I don't know how much I agree with a lot of your Xiahou Dun deck right now, but I will definitely get back to you on that in a later, and hopefully more relevant, thread.
The only question I have right now is... why no Clique/Rofl-house/Braids decks? Those are always toted as being the decks-to-beat of the format, yet the discussion on them seems to be lacking. Having a baseline competitive decklist here for each would go a long way for helping people know what exactly they should test against.
And, if anywhere, it seems like this would be the place to put them. Maybe even a simple "this one won a recent tourney" would be the way to go to get that result.
One more item of note! I would love to see links to the threads (if there are any) discussing the decks posted. It would divert decklist arguing from happening in this thread, and would allow people to get a good idea of what strategies/cards have already been considered.
Just some thoughts! Excellent idea, and I look forward to seeing what develops from this little list.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Elder Dragon Highlander WUBRG
Enchant World
When EDH comes into play, the game is a draw. Each player reveals his or her library to all other players, discusses how cool their deck is, and has a good laugh. Isn’t this a better version of Magic than playing “net decks”?
All of these decks look incredibly solid, great job dude.
I see you have Nath of the Gilt Leaf, but was curious (if you have any extra time) if you could possibly do one for Doran the Siege Tower. I'm sure they would be very similar in terms of doing a kind of rock type deck. It seems like Nath would run out of steam quickly without Skullclamp or Phyrexian Arena and adding white would give you access to cards like Enlightened Tutor and Stoneforge Mystic for card advantage. Plus Doran is a cheap beater. Come to think of it I might work on a list and send it to you...:D
This deck looks very similar in some ways to the Captain Sisay deck above, yet it plays completely differently. Gaddock Teeg is one of the main reasons why the Sisay deck is viable in the first place--by running him as your general, you lose Sisay's versatility, but you gain a lot of resiliency. If Teeg gets killed in the Sisay deck, he's very likely gone for good--here, you just need to replay him. Also, because you don't need to spend so many slots on a narrow legendary toolbox, you can just run overall stronger cards instead. The combos in this deck are cheaper and cleaner than in Sisay, and there's plenty of room for powerful utility cards. Some risky but powerful cards like Rites of Flourishing and Heartbeat of Spring are also viable in this deck, as Teeg breaks their symmetry against most opponents.
A major emphasis in this deck is on protecting Gaddock Teeg--there are many ways to give him shroud or protection, which leaves very few cards that can actually deal with him. Many decks are severely crippled by this--most combo decks can't even win against a shrouded Teeg. Because there are so many protective cards, we also include some creatures that dominate the game if not dealt with, like Platinum Angel, Willow Satyr, and Peacekeeper.
There are several ways to win this deck. It includes a number of "I-win" combos that can be played under Teeg, such as Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest and Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience, plus tutors to assemble them. You also have the pieces for an infinite Reveillark combo or a Yosei lock. When all else fails, it's also totally viable to just boost your creatures with equipment and plink away from the win, while your opponent is struggling to get by Teeg.
Weaknesses:
Creature-heavy decks:
Few competitive decks really load up on creatures, but the ones that do can mostly ignore Teeg, and just do their thing. What's more, their creatures are likely to be better than your utility dudes. Peacekeeper + protection goes a very long way towards stalling these matchups until you can assemble a combo, but it's still not an easy battle.
General-damage decks:
Decks that intend to kill you by dealing 21 damage with their general, like Uril or Akroma, can be difficult to beat, as Teeg doesn't slow down generals very well, if at all. Once again, finding and protecting Peacekeeper is by far your best chance of victory.
I'm very interested in the deck, as I want more competitive too. A few questions though:
What do you usually win with? How often is it general beatdown, and what makes that possible? I assume it's mostly the lark combo. How about stuffy combo and squirrel combo? I'm wondering how good they are, as the cards are rather bad outside of the combo.
Jitte: It's really expensive, how good is it?
Emeria: Could it be a good idea to shift to a more plains-heavy manabase to be able to use this land?
Stirring Wildwood (misspelled btw): I assume it's mostly for the clique matchup? As village and nantuko monastery are somewhat better at beating.
Say I can't get the two swords and survival, do you really hamper your ability to win, or is getting protection on teeg usually enough to win, while the rest are just effective ways to seal the deal?
The only question I have right now is... why no Clique/Rofl-house/Braids decks? Those are always toted as being the decks-to-beat of the format, yet the discussion on them seems to be lacking. Having a baseline competitive decklist here for each would go a long way for helping people know what exactly they should test against.
And, if anywhere, it seems like this would be the place to put them. Maybe even a simple "this one won a recent tourney" would be the way to go to get that result.
One more item of note! I would love to see links to the threads (if there are any) discussing the decks posted. It would divert decklist arguing from happening in this thread, and would allow people to get a good idea of what strategies/cards have already been considered.
Thus far, I've been avoiding posting any of the obvious tier 1 decks, on the grounds that no one really needs to know how to make them competitive. They're such known quantities that it's hard to say anything new about them. My approach was instead to showcase some of the lesser-known competitive strategies, to open people's eyes to how diverse the competitive 1v1 field can be, and to give fresh ideas for how to beat the boogeymen of the format.
That said though, I agree that maybe it's time to add them. I've got enough other decks posted by now to have made my point, so it can't hurt to add some more obvious lists. I'll probably add Rofellos (mutedequilibrium) and Azami (jimmyjoebob) soon, if the designers will let me. I'll also work on a Braids list (I'd use therestless's, but I disagree with his approach). I actually don't think Braids is even tier 1 with the 1v1 banlist, but it's still an interesting and competitive deck.
Vendilion Clique won't be appearing here. It's a broken general in 1v1--I've been over this in other places, but it's possible to make a list that has about a 95% win percentage against just about any other deck. Playing Clique in 1v1 is just abusing the system--I'm hoping that it will be banned shortly.
I do like the idea of linking to threads for individual discussion of each deck. Many of these decks (mostly mine) don't have threads, but I'll try to fix that. I'm probably going to wait until the forum restructure is complete before making the threads...I'm hoping for a 1v1/multiplayer split, which would be very useful in this case. In the meantime, I think it's okay if people use this thread for discussion. I do want to keep this bumped, after all.
Feel free to send me your Xiahou Dun list and critiques on mine. I don't think my list is perfect, though I do believe that the overall approach is correct.
Quote from wu-tang killer bee"s »
I see you have Nath of the Gilt Leaf, but was curious (if you have any extra time) if you could possibly do one for Doran the Siege Tower. I'm sure they would be very similar in terms of doing a kind of rock type deck. It seems like Nath would run out of steam quickly without Skullclamp or Phyrexian Arena and adding white would give you access to cards like Enlightened Tutor and Stoneforge Mystic for card advantage. Plus Doran is a cheap beater. Come to think of it I might work on a list and send it to you...:D
Feel free to send me a list, but Doran probably won't be appearing here. He actually doesn't contribute that much to a controllish Rock deck, apart from the colors. I'll take Nath's stream of discard/sacrifice fodder any day for that particular deck--most of the cards wouldn't even work without him.
The problem with Doran is that he doesn't really know what he wants to do. His cheap cost and beefy stats lend him towards a 21-general-damage strategy...but a 5 turn clock really isn't that good, and he doesn't have any kind of evasion. His ability can be built around, but it lends itself more to an aggro strategy--much harder to do. Also, Doran aggro has the problem of being completely awful without Doran in play...you tend to wind up with all this useless jank like Grizzled Leotau and Oathsworn Giant. A great number of decks can capitalize on that weakness, and make your "aggro" deck look pretty silly.
This is not to say that Doran isn't a good general--he is, and he can definitely end games very quickly sometimes. I just find that building around him results in a somewhat conflicted and 1-dimensional deck, and he's not interesting/powerful enough if I'm not going to build around him. Prove me wrong though, and perhaps I'll add your deck to this compendium.
Quote from Mown »
What do you usually win with? How often is it general beatdown, and what makes that possible? I assume it's mostly the lark combo. How about stuffy combo and squirrel combo? I'm wondering how good they are, as the cards are rather bad outside of the combo.
Jitte: It's really expensive, how good is it?
Emeria: Could it be a good idea to shift to a more plains-heavy manabase to be able to use this land?
Stirring Wildwood (misspelled btw): I assume it's mostly for the clique matchup? As village and nantuko monastery are somewhat better at beating.
Say I can't get the two swords and survival, do you really hamper your ability to win, or is getting protection on teeg usually enough to win, while the rest are just effective ways to seal the deal?
I win around 35-40% of my games by beatdown with Teeg and friends (usually against control and combo decks). I almost never win by general damage, though I could if the games went long enough--usually there are enough other creatures helping out that people die before Teeg gets there. These combat victories are almost always on the backs of the big three equipment--Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Sword of Light and Shadow. They make Teeg (or any utility dork) into a game-ending force.
The rest of my games are won through combo--perhaps 25% with Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest, 25% with Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience, and the rest with Reveillark. To be honest, I should probably win with Reveillark a lot more than I actually do, because I have this bad habit of forgetting that Survival of the Fittest is in the deck and can get me the whole combo. I can actually think of many games that could have been won a lot faster if I went for Survival instead of part of some other combo.
Guilty Doll and Squirrelcraft are both amazing, don't cut either one of these combos. G/W is light enough on tutors that you really, really want to play as many good combos as you can. Hopefully, you draw naturally into one piece of one combo, and then you can tutor for the appropriate missing piece.
The combos are really important in this deck, because frequently you really need one to win. Few of our creatures have evasion, and we can't afford to devote slots to make them harder to block. Against decks that can gum up the board with creatures and make attacking unprofitable, the main strategy for this deck is to hide behind Peacekeeper or Platinum Angel and try to draw/tutor into an infinite combo. Many decks can't win with Peacekeeper in play, and no deck can win with Platinum Angel in play. Between Gaddock Teeg and stuff like Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper, many decks can't deal with these creatures, so you can buy all the time you need to find a combo. This is one of the slowest combo decks ever, but it has so much proactive disruption that it usually works out.
Umezawa's Jitte is really expensive because it's really good. Same with the Swords. These are the big three equipment--nothing else even comes close in terms of efficiency and power. Unfortunately, not having access to these equipments really damages your combat plan--with a couple of rare exceptions like Knight of the Reliquary, the utility creatures just aren't aggressive enough to get the job done without equipment.
Survival of the Fittest is also extremely important (though I don't use it enough), because it's basically a combo in itself (through Reveillark). Without Survival, your chance of assembling an infinite Reveillark combo in an average length game is like 0.5%. It just doesn't happen. Besides being your route to a combo victory, it's also by far the best tutor, and maybe the best card, in the deck.
Usually I'm all for suggesting replacements when cost is a problem...but honestly, I don't think these cards are replacable. They're all win-conditions, and this is a deck light on win-conditions. You need really good equipment to make the aggro gameplan work, and you need Survival of the Fittest for at least a third of your combo plan. If you're missing all 4, you've lost more than half of the usual routes to victory for this deck. You could get away with running any 2 of Jitte/SoFI/SoLS, but that's all. I really would not recommend this strategy if you can't get those particular cards. You could still make a perfectly fine aggro-only Teeg deck by loading up on efficient attackers, but I don't think you'll be able to support a combo deck with so few win-conditions. It's just too fragile.
@ Emeria, the Sky Ruin: Emeria is very powerful, but I've had lousy success in making it work in two-color decks. It usually requires a significant mana-base tweak, and even then it's really slow and almost never comes online. That said, if it could work well in any two-color deck, this is probably the one--between Land Tax, Weathered Wayfarer, and Knight of the Reliquary, I can find a lot of Plains. This deck also tends to be slow enough that it might actually work. I'd probably need to add 1-2 Plains and Emeria to make it work...only I don't want to lose green mana to do so. I may try to test it, if I can find a configuration I'm happy with. (One plus-side of adding Emeria is that I can do away with Reya Dawnbringer and still be able to assemble a lock with Yosei, the Morning Star and High Market.)
@ Stirring Wildwood: Actually, it's mostly there because it's a dualland, not because it's a manland. I don't really need the body, so other manlands aren't desirable. I rarely activate Stirring Wildwood, but it does occasionally block something important. It's well worth its spot.
It's ok, I know. Survival can combo by itself, and it's hard to swing through without one of the equipments, unless you have a way better board position. It's nice to know that the other combos are easier to get than I expected though.
Highly detailed response, and made me understand the deck a lot better, so thanks a lot for that at least.
Maybe I can find someone to trade with. I was just so exited over how cheap the core of the deck was, until I realized that I was pretty much going to need Survival and the equipments.
Is it the protection that does it, or could Behemoth Sledge be of any possible use? Of course, the CA that both of them provides are also important, but just wondering.
Thus far, I've been avoiding posting any of the obvious tier 1 decks, on the grounds that no one really needs to know how to make them competitive. They're such known quantities that it's hard to say anything new about them. My approach was instead to showcase some of the lesser-known competitive strategies, to open people's eyes to how diverse the competitive 1v1 field can be, and to give fresh ideas for how to beat the boogeymen of the format.
That said though, I agree that maybe it's time to add them. I've got enough other decks posted by now to have made my point, so it can't hurt to add some more obvious lists. I'll probably add Rofellos (mutedequilibrium) and Azami (jimmyjoebob) soon, if the designers will let me. I'll also work on a Braids list (I'd use therestless's, but I disagree with his approach). I actually don't think Braids is even tier 1 with the 1v1 banlist, but it's still an interesting and competitive deck.
Vendilion Clique won't be appearing here. It's a broken general in 1v1--I've been over this in other places, but it's possible to make a list that has about a 95% win percentage against just about any other deck. Playing Clique in 1v1 is just abusing the system--I'm hoping that it will be banned shortly.
The reason that I am curious about the Tier 1 decks is that the groups that I play in don't use those generals, as they feel it is detrimental to the format. Since I (and one of my friends that only plays with my decks) am the only one interested in playing competitive 1v1, there isn't really a lot to test against.
Also, I would rather not spend the time developing a Rofellos/Braids deck, when I have no experience with what makes either of the decks so good, having not played against them yet. It would definitely be nice to have a baseline deck to test my decks against, so if I decide to walk into a 1v1 tourney I don't get blown out of the water.
Metagaming FTW.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Elder Dragon Highlander WUBRG
Enchant World
When EDH comes into play, the game is a draw. Each player reveals his or her library to all other players, discusses how cool their deck is, and has a good laugh. Isn’t this a better version of Magic than playing “net decks”?
The problem with Doran is that he doesn't really know what he wants to do. His cheap cost and beefy stats lend him towards a 21-general-damage strategy...but a 5 turn clock really isn't that good, and he doesn't have any kind of evasion. His ability can be built around, but it lends itself more to an aggro strategy--much harder to do. Also, Doran aggro has the problem of being completely awful without Doran in play...you tend to wind up with all this useless jank like Grizzled Leotau and Oathsworn Giant. A great number of decks can capitalize on that weakness, and make your "aggro" deck look pretty silly.
This is not to say that Doran isn't a good general--he is, and he can definitely end games very quickly sometimes. I just find that building around him results in a somewhat conflicted and 1-dimensional deck, and he's not interesting/powerful enough if I'm not going to build around him. Prove me wrong though, and perhaps I'll add your deck to this compendium.
I don't think I would use guys with larger toughness's to try and abuse Doran's ability, for the exact reason you said, the cards are useless without him. I want to use cards that are always useful, which is why I'm not a huge fan of using Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo. I don't think the cards are that great by themselves, but I'm getting off topic.
I will try and work on a solid list, it might take awhile and maybe I'll even try making a primer, I've never done one before. It would be pretty cool to make it to the list of decks that you have there so I'll go to the laboratory and try and cook something up.
Behemoth Sledge is pretty much worthless in that deck. The swords give a p/t boost, partial protection, partial evasion, and built-in card advantage (SoFI gives removal as well). Behemoth Sledge costs more to equip than the Swords and...just gives a p/t boost. Trample and lifelink are both useless for this deck--the creatures just aren't big enough for either to be at all relevant. Sledge just doesn't do any of the things you need equipment to do. There aren't any other equipments you can replace the big 3 with in this deck, which means you basically have to give up the combat plan if you can't get them. That makes for a much, much worse deck.
I don't think I would use guys with larger toughness's to try and abuse Doran's ability, for the exact reason you said, the cards are useless without him.
That's the right way to do it, but the difficulty then is justifying why it's worth playing Doran as your general. The general is easily the most important card of almost every deck--it's the only one you have consistent access to. The most successful decks in EDH tend to be those that take advantage of this unique access the most effectively. If you don't use your general effectively, you're likely going to be at a marked disadvantage to decks that do. If you're just going for a "good stuff" deck, you'd probably be better off going with a 5 color general for access to blue. Can you make a Doran deck that really uses Doran, while not playing cards that are bad on their own? I think it's possible, but it's definitely not easy.
I want to use cards that are always useful, which is why I'm not a huge fan of using Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo. I don't think the cards are that great by themselves
I use this combo in several of my decks, so I may as well address this. Helm of Obedience and Leyline of the Void are almost always worth running if you have a certain critical mass of tutors...around 6 or 7 is usually enough. Here's why.
If you don't draw either, no harm done. You just go on without them.
If you're lucky enough to draw both, that's obviously great. Play them and win.
If you only draw one of them (the most common situation that we care about), something interesting happens. Suddenly every tutor you have is potentially an instant win (given 5 extra mana or another turn). You're holding one card that isn't that useful...but there are now at least 7-8 cards in your deck or hand that could not be more useful. Admittedly, tutors are always useful, but usually a single tutor can't just outright win you the game. In a combo deck, where you're generally tutoring for combo pieces anyways, this is a worthwhile trade-off. I wouldn't play this combo unless I had a ton of tutors in the deck...but since I do, it's worthwhile.
For a little comparison, think back to when Grindstone (with Painter's Servant) and Time Vault (with Voltaic Key) were unbanned (if you've been playing that long). I vividly remember when these combos were shoved into almost every deck, just because having the potential for a 2-card instant-win combo led to a lot of free wins. Leyline and Helm are a little more expensive than those combos, and require you to be playing black, but it's basically the same thing (and Leyline and Helm are both more useful on their own anyway...Leyline is actually quite good). In some decks, there are reasons not to run combos like this, but if you have enough tutors to support them 2-card combos this good are generally worth running.
I actually don't think Braids is even tier 1 with the 1v1 banlist, but it's still an interesting and competitive deck.
Khymera you are correct about braids. I built one for my play group and it can easily be beaten since our playgroup only bans the moxens and lotus. For braids to be effective it must be in play on turn 2 or turn 3 the latest. Braids can easily be beaten if your opponent can cast 2 or 3 things on turns 1 or 2 as this can easily offset braids. Any way I am stoke to see your list and I'll pm you my list if you don't mind. Take a look at it as it is almost perfect. I'll have to take some time to write you a quick primer so you'll understand my card choices. If you ever decide to post a braids list and happen to use some of my ideas, just give me some credit. I'll try to send you the list by tomorrow night with card choices and reasons why.
Why in teeg do you tutor for the Reveilark Combo instead of chain tutoring Iona -> Loyal Retainers, and then Painters Servant after that? Seems like alot less work.
Why in teeg do you tutor for the Reveilark Combo instead of chain tutoring Iona -> Loyal Retainers, and then Painters Servant after that? Seems like alot less work.
The Reveillark combo is a more efficient use of deck slots, and minimizes dead cards. There is absolutely no downside to playing the Reveillark combo, because I would be playing all of the cards anyways, even if they didn't make a combo. Reveillark, Karmic Guide, Saffi Eriksdotter, Mirror Entity, Acidic Slime, and Yosei, the Morning Star are all great cards that fit very well in this deck. The fact that I can finagle a game-winning combo out of them with Survival of Fittest is just gravy, but I'll use it since I have it.
Assembling an Iona/Painter's Servant lock is slightly less complicated...but the difference is extremely minute. With Survival of the Fittest, 3 activations for the Reveillark combo is not significantly cheaper than 4-5 activations for the Iona combo. Starting with just Survival of the Fittest and 1 irrelevant creature, it costs me 11 mana to go infinite with Reveillark + Yosei (or 10 mana if I use Acidic Slime). To assemble Iona + Painter's Servant, it costs me 8 mana. That's really not a big difference, especially considering that the mana can easily be split up over multiple turns.
Even more importantly, I don't want to run Iona, Loyal Retainers, OR Painter's Servant in this deck. Outside of the combo, they're all pretty bad cards in this deck, lacking other interactions. By cutting 3 cards to include these, I would be weakening some aspect of deck, and all I'd get out of it is marginally more efficiency in one of my three combos. I feel extremely confident in saying that the Reveillark combo is superior to Iona in this deck.
Evergreen's Iname, Death Aspect will be included very soon, along with Braids and maybe Niv-Mizzet. I'm also looking for a competitive Uril deck--if anyone thinks they've got one (with ROE inclusions), I'd appreciate a list.
I have officially given up on Doran, the Siege Tower. You were right, it seems to me like EDH decks work a helluva lot better when they have a theme. Doran's theme just isn't good enough, I just ended up with a pile of "good stuff" that had little to no synergy. Can't say I didn't try though!
I have been playing your Nath of the Guilt Leaf deck (with some metagame tweaks and such) but was wondering what ROE cards you would consider including. I think Inquisition of Kozilek is sort of a no brainer, but what about Consuming Vapors. It doesn't target and gives some life gain which IMO is what the deck needs. Momentous Fall also seems interesting...
I have officially given up on Doran, the Siege Tower. You were right, it seems to me like EDH decks work a helluva lot better when they have a theme. Doran's theme just isn't good enough, I just ended up with a pile of "good stuff" that had little to no synergy. Can't say I didn't try though!
Do you think a colorless general could be competitive?
To the Doran deck, I think Doran is much better played as a combo/aggro G/W/B deck. If you go with abusing Doran's ability you have too many dead cards when Doran isn't in play. It's a good effect, but it is irrelevant against the majority of decks. When I built Doran a while back I made it G/W aggro with B for tutors and an instant win Survival of the Fittest combo (can't insta-win with G/W only, B enables the win with CIP life loss creatures). It was a pretty bad deck, but I've been looking into remaking it lately.
I don't think a colorless deck will ever be a high placing competitive deck for the sole reason that they have (a) no way to accelerate other than to play many mana producing artifacts, the two best of which are not allowed under 1v1 banlists, and (b) zero possible ways of stopping null rod, which shuts down any mana, card draw, control, ANYTHING in a colorless deck. Your only hope after a Null Rod comes out is to win with pure aggro, which is pretty difficult with no usable acceleration and no card draw.
That's pretty much what I figured with Doran. @d.g., you don't need black for a Survival of the Fittest combo, by the way. Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Mirror Entity + Saffi Eriksdotter + Yosei, the Morning Star works, locking someone out of an arbitrarily large number of untap steps. I've never seen anyone come back from that. Since you don't need black, I think Gaddock Teeg is a wayyy better choice for an aggro/combo general, because he's so troublesome for so many decks. I already have that deck in this compendium (though I need to update it with a few goodies from ROE).
Quote from wu-tang killer bee"s »
I have been playing your Nath of the Guilt Leaf deck (with some metagame tweaks and such) but was wondering what ROE cards you would consider including. I think Inquisition of Kozilek is sort of a no brainer, but what about Consuming Vapors. It doesn't target and gives some life gain which IMO is what the deck needs. Momentous Fall also seems interesting...
Cool, I'm glad someone is playing that. It's a neat deck. I actually really dislike Inquisition of Kozilek--very often, the card I want to take is more than 3 mana. It's okay, but I don't find it spectacular. Consuming Vapors is also not so good. Removal needs to be fast and versatile in this format--edicts are already sort of unwieldy, because they frequently won't hit the right creature. A 4cc edict leaves a lot of wiggle room for an opponent. I don't think it's worth it overall. Momentous Fall doesn't have enough juicy targets in this deck either.
There aren't too many ROE cards I'd add to this deck. The best and most obvious to me is actually Awakening Zone--it's mostly just a bad Bitterblossom, but this deck LOVES its Bitterblossoms. It will very happily take another one, even a bad one. Growth Spasm is worth a second look as well. I also happen to quite like Guul Draz Assassin, and think he might be a good fit for this deck. Those are the cards I want to try, though I still have to figure out what to cut for them.
Quote from wu-tang killer bee"s »
Do you think a colorless general could be competitive? I was also wondering about a RW general, like Brion Stoutarm
Like d.g. said, colorless has some consistency and power level problems. I think the Eldrazi make very bad generals. They're simply too expensive to consistently get cast within a relevant time frame. That leaves Karn. A Karn combo deck like PhoenixGrenade's is not bad, and may even be on the cusp of competitive...but personally I don't think it's quite there. It can't be made as consistent as the other decks I have listed here, so I'm uncomfortable calling it competitive.
That said, there just might be another possibility. I've been messing around with an aggro Karn deck--somewhere between Skullclamp Affinity and Vintage MUD. It has to play a bunch of stupid cards, like bad Arcbound guys, but the internal synergies are really good. Unlike combo Karn decks, this one gets to take full advantage of the good equipment, which are among the best colorless cards. It sounds stupid, and maybe it is, but initial results are very promising (it stomps mono-blue into the ground). I don't think it's impossible that this could turn out to be a viable deck, though I need to work on it some more. It can beat Null Rod too (though not enough people play Null Rod to make me worry too much about it).
Brion Stoutarm is an interesting one too. He's undoubtably the best of the R/W generals, and I actually think he has potential...though it's possible that the cards don't yet exist for him to reach it. It definitely is possible to build around him. He likes 1) Threaten effects, and 2) really big creatures. The trouble is, Threatens suck against creature-light decks, really big creatures are slow, and R/W is pretty terrible for consistency. There's also some internal tension in Brion, who has aggressive stats but can't attack and use his ability. Anyway, more cards get printed for him every set. I think it's likely that eventually he'll have enough good ones to make a good general, though he may not quite be there yet. A successful Brion deck will probably be more oriented towards control and prison effects than aggro--that's his only chance against combo and most control decks. It would be an interesting project to try to build. I can already imagine Sneak Attacking Emrakul for 15 damage, then flinging him with Brion for 15 more.
Yeah I played a bunch of games last night with some buddies, I drew Consuming Vapors a few times and its just too slow, plus the deck already has plenty of non-targeted removal. Inquisition of Kozilek, the one time a started with it wasn't bad, I think its gunna suck late game though when there are holding big things, so I'll probably cut it too. I will test the other cards you mentioned seeing as how I trust your judgment when it comes to EDH
The main problem I see in Brion is that he's R/W, which is quite possibly one of the worst color combinations out there. It's frustrating running out of draw power or card advantage outlets and getting choked out of the game by a control deck or putting up pretty much no resistance as the combo player goes off.
The main problem I see in Brion is that he's R/W, which is quite possibly one of the worst color combinations out there. It's frustrating running out of draw power or card advantage outlets and getting choked out of the game by a control deck or putting up pretty much no resistance as the combo player goes off.
Yeah thats very true, this is a thread about competitive decks and I don't see alot of ways to gain card advantage in R/W, so control will wreck you. Same goes for what you said about combo. Perhaps an interesting casual deck then, until the right cards come out.
Aso Khymera as far as what I would cut, how do you like Geth's Grimoire? I never really liked drawing it, I also cut Chains of Mephistopheles seeing how its not very useful in my playgroup, but you play on MWS correct? so it probably good against the some of the decks you face on there. I also cut Brainspoil and Biorhythm. People whined too much about Biorhythm.
I know, but without Black it's impossible to win on THAT turn, which is the nice thing about Doran. If you're going to run the combo, it's nice to have the option to straight out win, instead of worrying about their possible options.
The main problem I see in Brion is that he's R/W, which is quite possibly one of the worst color combinations out there. It's frustrating running out of draw power or card advantage outlets and getting choked out of the game by a control deck or putting up pretty much no resistance as the combo player goes off.
I agree that R/W is the worst color combination, but that doesn't mean it's doomed. Mono-white can work (Lin-Sivvi, a mean Michiko Konda I encountered recently), and mono-red can work (Godo, Kiki-Jiki, maybe Heartless Hidetsugu). I don't see any reason why combining the two won't work. The trick is going to be lots of basic Plains, Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon, and white prison enchantments like Ghostly Prison, Karmic Justice, and Runed Halo. Go for a combo kill with Sneak Attack, Eldrazi, and Serra Avatar. It helps that all the key cards are enchantments, which white can tutor to some extent (and which are the hardest permanent type for most decks to deal with). You can gain card advantage (of a sort) with Land Tax, Scroll Rack, Weathered Wayfarer, Stonehewer Giant, that sort of thing. I think it could be good.
Quote from wu-tang killer bee"s »
Aso Khymera as far as what I would cut, how do you like Geth's Grimoire? I never really liked drawing it, I also cut Chains of Mephistopheles seeing how its not very useful in my playgroup, but you play on MWS correct? so it probably good against the some of the decks you face on there. I also cut Brainspoil and Biorhythm. People whined too much about Biorhythm.
Those are all acceptable cuts. I like Chains of Mephistopheles because it's so good against blue and black, but if it's not good in your meta feel free to cut it. The other cards are all pretty solid, but not necessary. You can cut them. (Note that I'm only sure about Awakening Zone--Growth Spasm and Guul Draz Assassin may not be good enough to make the cut).
Quote from d.g. »
I know, but without Black it's impossible to win on THAT turn, which is the nice thing about Doran. If you're going to run the combo, it's nice to have the option to straight out win, instead of worrying about their possible options.
I don't really follow you. The G/W combo taps all your opponent's permanents, makes them skip all their untap steps ever, and leaves you with a substantial board position, able to repeat the combo at any time. No one has outs to that, period. For all practical purposes, it is an immediate win. Black is unnecessary, so it makes sense to go with the stronger/more synergistic general, even if you lose a few tutors.
I'm glad you're enjoying my Sharuum list, MCR. I think it's beautiful too.
You're right that Masticore wouldn't be included if he didn't let you discard. He's useful in a wide range of situations--as a discard outlet and as persistent removal. Though he's not incredibly powerful like all of my other 4+ mana artifacts, he makes the cut because he's very good against some of our hardest matchups. Against both Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and Vendilion Clique, two of the most dominating decks in 1v1, he's one of the best possible cards to have, and makes a huge impact on those games. He's also quite solid against most other strategies that rely on a cheap general. Masticore tends to be pretty lackluster against bad decks...but you should be easily beating those anyways. He's really good against the best decks, so he gets to stay.
I can't give you hard-and-fast rules for tutoring/Intuition piles, because it really can vary a lot based on the game state. I would advise against going too aggressively for a combo though--it's definitely not always the right choice. I frequently choose to go for Mindslaver or Magister Sphinx rather than setting up a combo I can't use immediately--I'll take a powerful effect now instead of telegraphing that I'm going to combo off next turn.
The only fairly consistent tutoring rule I can give you is "mana first." Probably 4/5 times, my first tutor is for Mana Crypt or Sol Ring (or occasionally for Artificer's Intuition if I have a particularly top-heavy hand and know I'm going to need both). Frequently, my second tutor is for the other one, and hopefully I can find Tolarian Academy after that. I'll usually tutor for fast mana until I have about 8-10 mana available, at which point I'll start going for combos, disruption, or just particularly relevant artifacts. Intuition can usually get you a combo AND the most relevant artifact, so it's a frequent tutor target if I can find it efficiently. What I mean by that is that I'll tutor for Intuition if 1) there's nothing else I need immediately and 2) I have enough mana to use it without wasting a turn.
My most common Intuition pile is probably Sculpting Steel, Extractor Demon, Mindslaver(if Sharuum isn't in play or your graveyard needs stocking)/Momentary Blink(if she is or your graveyard has good artifacts already). "Mana Artifact" usually doesn't work that well as the third card, because most people will just give you Extractor Demon. May as well get something else that will be useful in your graveyard. Mindslaver, Momentary Blink, 2nd Awesome Artifact is also a back-breaking Intuition pile in most situations. If it's possible to get a Mindslaver activation right after playing Intuition (and it frequently is), that's usually the right choice.
Other than that...get Memory Jar if you're flush with mana but low on cards. Get Mishra's Helix if you can lock up the game with it (it's a 1-card combo, in the right situation). Get Sundering Titan if your opponent is 5-color or particularly vulnerable. Get Memnarch if you're facing a lot of artifacts. Get Salvaging Station against control if the game is going to come down to attrition/card advantage. Get Darksteel Forge if you're concerned about a sweeper (especially against white decks). I think that pretty much covers it.
With enough practice, you'll find that in any situation, there's probably at least one card you could get that is staggeringly good for that situation. It's just a matter of recognizing what that card is. Sometimes you have to figure out what your opponent's "out" against you is, and play to mitigate that out.
Regarding Imperial Seal and Mishra's Workshop, don't worry overly much about replacing them with similar cards. The cards in this deck are chosen because they're the best cards--almost all of them either do something unique or are just the most efficient in their category. Tutors and fast mana are both important, but they're only worth playing as long as they're good. Mishra's Workshop really can't be effectively replaced--every remotely comparable card is already in the deck. Just swap it for another basic land or perhaps for Voltaic Key, depending on your tastes--I never liked the Key, though I tested it extensively, but some people swear by it.
As for Imperial Seal, if you want to replace it with another tutor, Fabricate is a reasonable option. I might suggest trying out Entomb instead though--it's a little less versatile, but significantly more efficient/powerful. I'm probably going to integrate it into my list, in fact, though not in place of Imperial Seal. Don't feel obligated to replace Imperial Seal with a tutor though--the deck would work perfectly fine with 1 less tutor. You could replace it with whatever card you want to try out.
When playing against permission decks, I don't really change my strategy appreciably. You play the same game, you just do it more carefully. Permission and most removal really isn't much of a problem with this deck--it slows you down, but it doesn't actually stop you. Permission decks can't afford to counter all your mana artifacts, so just keep playing lands and replaying Sharuum and you can exhaust them pretty quickly (this may not work against an optimized Vendilion Clique deck, but Vendilion Clique decks are ****ing broken in 1v1, so they don't count). Control decks like this can slow you down, but they don't win quickly--and as soon as they stumble (which they inevitably do), you can immediately do very unfair things.
Also keep in mind that Bitter Ordeal is uncounterable by most things, and is played after the Sculpting Steel loop. Sometimes people will let you "combo" if you don't have an apparent win condition, and then you can blow them out with Bitter Ordeal.
Jace 2.0 is a fairly recent addition to this deck (obviously). He has no particular synergy, but is in here on the grounds that he's good in every format (and I think particularly good in EDH), so he's probably good here. He's by far the most untested card in the deck, but he's been alright so far. I could definitely see cutting him if I really wanted to make room for something else, but there actually aren't very many other cards that are strong enough to make the cut in this deck. He's good, but not important (unlike just about every other card, it's true).
I actually play the exact same deck in multiplayer, and am very successful with it. It could probably be optimized a little bit more for multiplayer, but there's no real need (it's still probably more powerful than any other deck at the table...). I wouldn't bother with Disciple of the Vault, which is quite fragile and unnecessary, even in 1v1. Bitter Ordeal and Extractor Demon can still mill the whole table. Glassdust Hulk is a little weaker, but it can still kill the most threatening person (and its burden on the deck is essentially nil, due to its cycling).
If I were to make changes for multiplayer, I'd probably add Hallowed Burial and Thada Adel, Acquisitor (assuming most people in your group play Sol Ring and/or Mana Crypt). Hallowed Burial is a fantastic problem solver in this format (Decree of Pain only just barely beat it out in my list). Thada Adel is a little too fragile/narrow for 1v1, but is positively insane at a competitive multiplayer table, especially considering how vital Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are to this deck. To make room for those, I'd probably cut Mishra's Helix (significantly worse in multiplayer) and Transmute Artifact. Cutting the Helm/Leyline combo would also be a reasonable decision for multiplayer games.
(And yes, you have to pay 1 for Helm of Obedience to trigger the combo. Mana Vault alone can still make for a turn 2 kill if you're lucky enough to start with the pieces...scary stuff.)
For the curious, the cards which are closest to making the cut in the Sharuum deck right now are Entomb, Mind Twist, and Scroll Rack. I've tested all of these in the past, but they could easily find their way into the deck again. I'm also toying with the idea of squeezing in the little package of Reito Lantern/Tunnel Vision/Open the Vaults for one combo and one pseudo-combo (Reito Lantern + Tunnel Vision is usually lethal, whereas Tunnel Vision on yourself for Open the Vaults is hilarious and sometimes spectacular). However, the second combo is really slow, and none of the cards are quite good enough on their own, so they probably won't make it (if Reito Lantern cost 1, I would play it...that's how important cogs are). It might still be worth testing though.
Hope that's helpful. I should just make a full primer.
So yes, Oona is up. Sorry for the very slow rate of additions--I've been very busy, and I'm also starting to run out of decks that I feel are unique enough and competitive enough to be added. You can still expect LennonMarx's Horde of Notions storm deck very soon, as well as Hephlathio's Wort, the Raidmother deck...maybe a Wort, Boggart Auntie tribal aggro/combo deck too. Also a Scion of the Ur-Dragon combo deck, when I get it where I want it. And don't forget Evergreen's Iname!
Thanks so much for the thorough response. The more I play the deck, the more I'm beginning to see the subtle interactions. I also don't tutor aggressively for combos anymore (as you've suggested), cause the deck is so dense with threats that you can just stumble over any small synergy and probably blow your opponent out of the water (I managed to destroy half of a Brion player's lands on turn 6 by using Blink / Staff with a Sundering Titan).
Also grats on Oona, and I am looking forward to the updates (particularly Evergreen's :D).
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I don't know how much I agree with a lot of your Xiahou Dun deck right now, but I will definitely get back to you on that in a later, and hopefully more relevant, thread.
The only question I have right now is... why no Clique/Rofl-house/Braids decks? Those are always toted as being the decks-to-beat of the format, yet the discussion on them seems to be lacking. Having a baseline competitive decklist here for each would go a long way for helping people know what exactly they should test against.
And, if anywhere, it seems like this would be the place to put them. Maybe even a simple "this one won a recent tourney" would be the way to go to get that result.
One more item of note! I would love to see links to the threads (if there are any) discussing the decks posted. It would divert decklist arguing from happening in this thread, and would allow people to get a good idea of what strategies/cards have already been considered.
Just some thoughts! Excellent idea, and I look forward to seeing what develops from this little list.
WUBRG
Enchant World
When EDH comes into play, the game is a draw. Each player reveals his or her library to all other players, discusses how cool their deck is, and has a good laugh.
Isn’t this a better version of Magic than playing “net decks”?
I see you have Nath of the Gilt Leaf, but was curious (if you have any extra time) if you could possibly do one for Doran the Siege Tower. I'm sure they would be very similar in terms of doing a kind of rock type deck. It seems like Nath would run out of steam quickly without Skullclamp or Phyrexian Arena and adding white would give you access to cards like Enlightened Tutor and Stoneforge Mystic for card advantage. Plus Doran is a cheap beater. Come to think of it I might work on a list and send it to you...:D
I'm very interested in the deck, as I want more competitive too. A few questions though:
Jitte: It's really expensive, how good is it?
Emeria: Could it be a good idea to shift to a more plains-heavy manabase to be able to use this land?
Stirring Wildwood (misspelled btw): I assume it's mostly for the clique matchup? As village and nantuko monastery are somewhat better at beating.
Say I can't get the two swords and survival, do you really hamper your ability to win, or is getting protection on teeg usually enough to win, while the rest are just effective ways to seal the deal?
Thanks in advance.
Thus far, I've been avoiding posting any of the obvious tier 1 decks, on the grounds that no one really needs to know how to make them competitive. They're such known quantities that it's hard to say anything new about them. My approach was instead to showcase some of the lesser-known competitive strategies, to open people's eyes to how diverse the competitive 1v1 field can be, and to give fresh ideas for how to beat the boogeymen of the format.
That said though, I agree that maybe it's time to add them. I've got enough other decks posted by now to have made my point, so it can't hurt to add some more obvious lists. I'll probably add Rofellos (mutedequilibrium) and Azami (jimmyjoebob) soon, if the designers will let me. I'll also work on a Braids list (I'd use therestless's, but I disagree with his approach). I actually don't think Braids is even tier 1 with the 1v1 banlist, but it's still an interesting and competitive deck.
Vendilion Clique won't be appearing here. It's a broken general in 1v1--I've been over this in other places, but it's possible to make a list that has about a 95% win percentage against just about any other deck. Playing Clique in 1v1 is just abusing the system--I'm hoping that it will be banned shortly.
I do like the idea of linking to threads for individual discussion of each deck. Many of these decks (mostly mine) don't have threads, but I'll try to fix that. I'm probably going to wait until the forum restructure is complete before making the threads...I'm hoping for a 1v1/multiplayer split, which would be very useful in this case. In the meantime, I think it's okay if people use this thread for discussion. I do want to keep this bumped, after all.
Feel free to send me your Xiahou Dun list and critiques on mine. I don't think my list is perfect, though I do believe that the overall approach is correct.
Feel free to send me a list, but Doran probably won't be appearing here. He actually doesn't contribute that much to a controllish Rock deck, apart from the colors. I'll take Nath's stream of discard/sacrifice fodder any day for that particular deck--most of the cards wouldn't even work without him.
The problem with Doran is that he doesn't really know what he wants to do. His cheap cost and beefy stats lend him towards a 21-general-damage strategy...but a 5 turn clock really isn't that good, and he doesn't have any kind of evasion. His ability can be built around, but it lends itself more to an aggro strategy--much harder to do. Also, Doran aggro has the problem of being completely awful without Doran in play...you tend to wind up with all this useless jank like Grizzled Leotau and Oathsworn Giant. A great number of decks can capitalize on that weakness, and make your "aggro" deck look pretty silly.
This is not to say that Doran isn't a good general--he is, and he can definitely end games very quickly sometimes. I just find that building around him results in a somewhat conflicted and 1-dimensional deck, and he's not interesting/powerful enough if I'm not going to build around him. Prove me wrong though, and perhaps I'll add your deck to this compendium.
I win around 35-40% of my games by beatdown with Teeg and friends (usually against control and combo decks). I almost never win by general damage, though I could if the games went long enough--usually there are enough other creatures helping out that people die before Teeg gets there. These combat victories are almost always on the backs of the big three equipment--Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Sword of Light and Shadow. They make Teeg (or any utility dork) into a game-ending force.
The rest of my games are won through combo--perhaps 25% with Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest, 25% with Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience, and the rest with Reveillark. To be honest, I should probably win with Reveillark a lot more than I actually do, because I have this bad habit of forgetting that Survival of the Fittest is in the deck and can get me the whole combo. I can actually think of many games that could have been won a lot faster if I went for Survival instead of part of some other combo.
Guilty Doll and Squirrelcraft are both amazing, don't cut either one of these combos. G/W is light enough on tutors that you really, really want to play as many good combos as you can. Hopefully, you draw naturally into one piece of one combo, and then you can tutor for the appropriate missing piece.
The combos are really important in this deck, because frequently you really need one to win. Few of our creatures have evasion, and we can't afford to devote slots to make them harder to block. Against decks that can gum up the board with creatures and make attacking unprofitable, the main strategy for this deck is to hide behind Peacekeeper or Platinum Angel and try to draw/tutor into an infinite combo. Many decks can't win with Peacekeeper in play, and no deck can win with Platinum Angel in play. Between Gaddock Teeg and stuff like Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper, many decks can't deal with these creatures, so you can buy all the time you need to find a combo. This is one of the slowest combo decks ever, but it has so much proactive disruption that it usually works out.
Umezawa's Jitte is really expensive because it's really good. Same with the Swords. These are the big three equipment--nothing else even comes close in terms of efficiency and power. Unfortunately, not having access to these equipments really damages your combat plan--with a couple of rare exceptions like Knight of the Reliquary, the utility creatures just aren't aggressive enough to get the job done without equipment.
Survival of the Fittest is also extremely important (though I don't use it enough), because it's basically a combo in itself (through Reveillark). Without Survival, your chance of assembling an infinite Reveillark combo in an average length game is like 0.5%. It just doesn't happen. Besides being your route to a combo victory, it's also by far the best tutor, and maybe the best card, in the deck.
Usually I'm all for suggesting replacements when cost is a problem...but honestly, I don't think these cards are replacable. They're all win-conditions, and this is a deck light on win-conditions. You need really good equipment to make the aggro gameplan work, and you need Survival of the Fittest for at least a third of your combo plan. If you're missing all 4, you've lost more than half of the usual routes to victory for this deck. You could get away with running any 2 of Jitte/SoFI/SoLS, but that's all. I really would not recommend this strategy if you can't get those particular cards. You could still make a perfectly fine aggro-only Teeg deck by loading up on efficient attackers, but I don't think you'll be able to support a combo deck with so few win-conditions. It's just too fragile.
@ Emeria, the Sky Ruin: Emeria is very powerful, but I've had lousy success in making it work in two-color decks. It usually requires a significant mana-base tweak, and even then it's really slow and almost never comes online. That said, if it could work well in any two-color deck, this is probably the one--between Land Tax, Weathered Wayfarer, and Knight of the Reliquary, I can find a lot of Plains. This deck also tends to be slow enough that it might actually work. I'd probably need to add 1-2 Plains and Emeria to make it work...only I don't want to lose green mana to do so. I may try to test it, if I can find a configuration I'm happy with. (One plus-side of adding Emeria is that I can do away with Reya Dawnbringer and still be able to assemble a lock with Yosei, the Morning Star and High Market.)
@ Stirring Wildwood: Actually, it's mostly there because it's a dualland, not because it's a manland. I don't really need the body, so other manlands aren't desirable. I rarely activate Stirring Wildwood, but it does occasionally block something important. It's well worth its spot.
Incidentally, I will probably be adding Loaming Shaman and Mouth of Ronom (+ Snow-Covered lands) to the deck shortly. I'm also testing out Eladamri's Vineyard and Magus of the Vineyard as a kind of Heartbeat of Spring-lite, and they could easily make the deck as well.
Sorry about the bad news regarding Jitte/Swords/Survival. I hate to be discouraging, but I really do consider them necessary to the deck.
Highly detailed response, and made me understand the deck a lot better, so thanks a lot for that at least.
Maybe I can find someone to trade with. I was just so exited over how cheap the core of the deck was, until I realized that I was pretty much going to need Survival and the equipments.
Is it the protection that does it, or could Behemoth Sledge be of any possible use? Of course, the CA that both of them provides are also important, but just wondering.
The reason that I am curious about the Tier 1 decks is that the groups that I play in don't use those generals, as they feel it is detrimental to the format. Since I (and one of my friends that only plays with my decks) am the only one interested in playing competitive 1v1, there isn't really a lot to test against.
Also, I would rather not spend the time developing a Rofellos/Braids deck, when I have no experience with what makes either of the decks so good, having not played against them yet. It would definitely be nice to have a baseline deck to test my decks against, so if I decide to walk into a 1v1 tourney I don't get blown out of the water.
Metagaming FTW.
WUBRG
Enchant World
When EDH comes into play, the game is a draw. Each player reveals his or her library to all other players, discusses how cool their deck is, and has a good laugh.
Isn’t this a better version of Magic than playing “net decks”?
I don't think I would use guys with larger toughness's to try and abuse Doran's ability, for the exact reason you said, the cards are useless without him. I want to use cards that are always useful, which is why I'm not a huge fan of using Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo. I don't think the cards are that great by themselves, but I'm getting off topic.
I will try and work on a solid list, it might take awhile and maybe I'll even try making a primer, I've never done one before. It would be pretty cool to make it to the list of decks that you have there so I'll go to the laboratory and try and cook something up.
That's the right way to do it, but the difficulty then is justifying why it's worth playing Doran as your general. The general is easily the most important card of almost every deck--it's the only one you have consistent access to. The most successful decks in EDH tend to be those that take advantage of this unique access the most effectively. If you don't use your general effectively, you're likely going to be at a marked disadvantage to decks that do. If you're just going for a "good stuff" deck, you'd probably be better off going with a 5 color general for access to blue. Can you make a Doran deck that really uses Doran, while not playing cards that are bad on their own? I think it's possible, but it's definitely not easy.
I use this combo in several of my decks, so I may as well address this. Helm of Obedience and Leyline of the Void are almost always worth running if you have a certain critical mass of tutors...around 6 or 7 is usually enough. Here's why.
If you don't draw either, no harm done. You just go on without them.
If you're lucky enough to draw both, that's obviously great. Play them and win.
If you only draw one of them (the most common situation that we care about), something interesting happens. Suddenly every tutor you have is potentially an instant win (given 5 extra mana or another turn). You're holding one card that isn't that useful...but there are now at least 7-8 cards in your deck or hand that could not be more useful. Admittedly, tutors are always useful, but usually a single tutor can't just outright win you the game. In a combo deck, where you're generally tutoring for combo pieces anyways, this is a worthwhile trade-off. I wouldn't play this combo unless I had a ton of tutors in the deck...but since I do, it's worthwhile.
For a little comparison, think back to when Grindstone (with Painter's Servant) and Time Vault (with Voltaic Key) were unbanned (if you've been playing that long). I vividly remember when these combos were shoved into almost every deck, just because having the potential for a 2-card instant-win combo led to a lot of free wins. Leyline and Helm are a little more expensive than those combos, and require you to be playing black, but it's basically the same thing (and Leyline and Helm are both more useful on their own anyway...Leyline is actually quite good). In some decks, there are reasons not to run combos like this, but if you have enough tutors to support them 2-card combos this good are generally worth running.
Khymera you are correct about braids. I built one for my play group and it can easily be beaten since our playgroup only bans the moxens and lotus. For braids to be effective it must be in play on turn 2 or turn 3 the latest. Braids can easily be beaten if your opponent can cast 2 or 3 things on turns 1 or 2 as this can easily offset braids. Any way I am stoke to see your list and I'll pm you my list if you don't mind. Take a look at it as it is almost perfect. I'll have to take some time to write you a quick primer so you'll understand my card choices. If you ever decide to post a braids list and happen to use some of my ideas, just give me some credit. I'll try to send you the list by tomorrow night with card choices and reasons why.
Why in teeg do you tutor for the Reveilark Combo instead of chain tutoring Iona -> Loyal Retainers, and then Painters Servant after that? Seems like alot less work.
Added Wort, the Raidmother and Wort, Boggart Auntie, just for you. I've been having tons of fun with the B/R one recently.
The Reveillark combo is a more efficient use of deck slots, and minimizes dead cards. There is absolutely no downside to playing the Reveillark combo, because I would be playing all of the cards anyways, even if they didn't make a combo. Reveillark, Karmic Guide, Saffi Eriksdotter, Mirror Entity, Acidic Slime, and Yosei, the Morning Star are all great cards that fit very well in this deck. The fact that I can finagle a game-winning combo out of them with Survival of Fittest is just gravy, but I'll use it since I have it.
Assembling an Iona/Painter's Servant lock is slightly less complicated...but the difference is extremely minute. With Survival of the Fittest, 3 activations for the Reveillark combo is not significantly cheaper than 4-5 activations for the Iona combo. Starting with just Survival of the Fittest and 1 irrelevant creature, it costs me 11 mana to go infinite with Reveillark + Yosei (or 10 mana if I use Acidic Slime). To assemble Iona + Painter's Servant, it costs me 8 mana. That's really not a big difference, especially considering that the mana can easily be split up over multiple turns.
Even more importantly, I don't want to run Iona, Loyal Retainers, OR Painter's Servant in this deck. Outside of the combo, they're all pretty bad cards in this deck, lacking other interactions. By cutting 3 cards to include these, I would be weakening some aspect of deck, and all I'd get out of it is marginally more efficiency in one of my three combos. I feel extremely confident in saying that the Reveillark combo is superior to Iona in this deck.
Evergreen's Iname, Death Aspect will be included very soon, along with Braids and maybe Niv-Mizzet. I'm also looking for a competitive Uril deck--if anyone thinks they've got one (with ROE inclusions), I'd appreciate a list.
Any particular requests for other generals?
I have been playing your Nath of the Guilt Leaf deck (with some metagame tweaks and such) but was wondering what ROE cards you would consider including. I think Inquisition of Kozilek is sort of a no brainer, but what about Consuming Vapors. It doesn't target and gives some life gain which IMO is what the deck needs. Momentous Fall also seems interesting...
Do you think a colorless general could be competitive? I was also wondering about a RW general, like Brion Stoutarm
To the Doran deck, I think Doran is much better played as a combo/aggro G/W/B deck. If you go with abusing Doran's ability you have too many dead cards when Doran isn't in play. It's a good effect, but it is irrelevant against the majority of decks. When I built Doran a while back I made it G/W aggro with B for tutors and an instant win Survival of the Fittest combo (can't insta-win with G/W only, B enables the win with CIP life loss creatures). It was a pretty bad deck, but I've been looking into remaking it lately.
I don't think a colorless deck will ever be a high placing competitive deck for the sole reason that they have (a) no way to accelerate other than to play many mana producing artifacts, the two best of which are not allowed under 1v1 banlists, and (b) zero possible ways of stopping null rod, which shuts down any mana, card draw, control, ANYTHING in a colorless deck. Your only hope after a Null Rod comes out is to win with pure aggro, which is pretty difficult with no usable acceleration and no card draw.
d.g
Cool, I'm glad someone is playing that. It's a neat deck. I actually really dislike Inquisition of Kozilek--very often, the card I want to take is more than 3 mana. It's okay, but I don't find it spectacular. Consuming Vapors is also not so good. Removal needs to be fast and versatile in this format--edicts are already sort of unwieldy, because they frequently won't hit the right creature. A 4cc edict leaves a lot of wiggle room for an opponent. I don't think it's worth it overall. Momentous Fall doesn't have enough juicy targets in this deck either.
There aren't too many ROE cards I'd add to this deck. The best and most obvious to me is actually Awakening Zone--it's mostly just a bad Bitterblossom, but this deck LOVES its Bitterblossoms. It will very happily take another one, even a bad one. Growth Spasm is worth a second look as well. I also happen to quite like Guul Draz Assassin, and think he might be a good fit for this deck. Those are the cards I want to try, though I still have to figure out what to cut for them.
Like d.g. said, colorless has some consistency and power level problems. I think the Eldrazi make very bad generals. They're simply too expensive to consistently get cast within a relevant time frame. That leaves Karn. A Karn combo deck like PhoenixGrenade's is not bad, and may even be on the cusp of competitive...but personally I don't think it's quite there. It can't be made as consistent as the other decks I have listed here, so I'm uncomfortable calling it competitive.
That said, there just might be another possibility. I've been messing around with an aggro Karn deck--somewhere between Skullclamp Affinity and Vintage MUD. It has to play a bunch of stupid cards, like bad Arcbound guys, but the internal synergies are really good. Unlike combo Karn decks, this one gets to take full advantage of the good equipment, which are among the best colorless cards. It sounds stupid, and maybe it is, but initial results are very promising (it stomps mono-blue into the ground). I don't think it's impossible that this could turn out to be a viable deck, though I need to work on it some more. It can beat Null Rod too (though not enough people play Null Rod to make me worry too much about it).
Brion Stoutarm is an interesting one too. He's undoubtably the best of the R/W generals, and I actually think he has potential...though it's possible that the cards don't yet exist for him to reach it. It definitely is possible to build around him. He likes 1) Threaten effects, and 2) really big creatures. The trouble is, Threatens suck against creature-light decks, really big creatures are slow, and R/W is pretty terrible for consistency. There's also some internal tension in Brion, who has aggressive stats but can't attack and use his ability. Anyway, more cards get printed for him every set. I think it's likely that eventually he'll have enough good ones to make a good general, though he may not quite be there yet. A successful Brion deck will probably be more oriented towards control and prison effects than aggro--that's his only chance against combo and most control decks. It would be an interesting project to try to build. I can already imagine Sneak Attacking Emrakul for 15 damage, then flinging him with Brion for 15 more.
I think I will also look into Brion some more...
Yeah thats very true, this is a thread about competitive decks and I don't see alot of ways to gain card advantage in R/W, so control will wreck you. Same goes for what you said about combo. Perhaps an interesting casual deck then, until the right cards come out.
Aso Khymera as far as what I would cut, how do you like Geth's Grimoire? I never really liked drawing it, I also cut Chains of Mephistopheles seeing how its not very useful in my playgroup, but you play on MWS correct? so it probably good against the some of the decks you face on there. I also cut Brainspoil and Biorhythm. People whined too much about Biorhythm.
I know, but without Black it's impossible to win on THAT turn, which is the nice thing about Doran. If you're going to run the combo, it's nice to have the option to straight out win, instead of worrying about their possible options.
d.g
I agree that R/W is the worst color combination, but that doesn't mean it's doomed. Mono-white can work (Lin-Sivvi, a mean Michiko Konda I encountered recently), and mono-red can work (Godo, Kiki-Jiki, maybe Heartless Hidetsugu). I don't see any reason why combining the two won't work. The trick is going to be lots of basic Plains, Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon, and white prison enchantments like Ghostly Prison, Karmic Justice, and Runed Halo. Go for a combo kill with Sneak Attack, Eldrazi, and Serra Avatar. It helps that all the key cards are enchantments, which white can tutor to some extent (and which are the hardest permanent type for most decks to deal with). You can gain card advantage (of a sort) with Land Tax, Scroll Rack, Weathered Wayfarer, Stonehewer Giant, that sort of thing. I think it could be good.
Those are all acceptable cuts. I like Chains of Mephistopheles because it's so good against blue and black, but if it's not good in your meta feel free to cut it. The other cards are all pretty solid, but not necessary. You can cut them. (Note that I'm only sure about Awakening Zone--Growth Spasm and Guul Draz Assassin may not be good enough to make the cut).
I don't really follow you. The G/W combo taps all your opponent's permanents, makes them skip all their untap steps ever, and leaves you with a substantial board position, able to repeat the combo at any time. No one has outs to that, period. For all practical purposes, it is an immediate win. Black is unnecessary, so it makes sense to go with the stronger/more synergistic general, even if you lose a few tutors.
I'm very interested in hearing from you about a competitive Niv Mizzet list. I'd like to hear your take on it.
Any chance this will be up soon?